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Speaker 1: If you're good, place your left hand on the Bible

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Speaker 1: and raise your right hand, and please repeat after me

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Speaker 1: and I do solemnly swear. The jury then titled action

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Speaker 1: find the defendant guilty of the time. It makes no sense,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must aquit.

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Speaker 1: We all took the same of of office. We're all

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Speaker 1: bound by that common commitment to support and defend the Constitution,

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Speaker 1: to bear true faith in allegiance to the Saint, that

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Speaker 1: you faithfully discharge the duties of our office. Do you

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Speaker 1: solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to

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Speaker 1: give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

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Speaker 1: but the truth. From Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio,

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Speaker 1: this is Sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. I was

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Speaker 1: there with his form parently goal Caitlin, and our good

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Speaker 1: friend Pat and we sat there from start to finish.

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Speaker 1: So I kind of always say that I felt I

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Speaker 1: felt like I was in church. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: else to describe that, Like I felt like I was

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Speaker 1: at church, and all of a sudden I was overcome

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Speaker 1: by a power bigger than me. Again, we had been

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Speaker 1: dealing with us for a number of years, and you know,

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Speaker 1: what happens in the office impacts us in her family

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Speaker 1: life as well, and so we were there, her family

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Speaker 1: was there. It was very emotionally heavy and draining and

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Speaker 1: exhausting and long for everybody that took the stand that day.

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Speaker 1: There were people on both sides of the aisle that

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Speaker 1: had very particular feelings and were very vested in the

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Speaker 1: outcome of this case. I just believed that she hadn't

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Speaker 1: done this. I believe that there was evidence of prove

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Speaker 1: that she hadn't done this. And when the judge came

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Speaker 1: on the bench, it was like I was overcome. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, we started crying and we just

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Speaker 1: I could not get myself together like I felt. It

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Speaker 1: was just it was the highest emotion that and then

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Speaker 1: the lowest. You know, you're kind of sponged up and down.

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Speaker 1: It was. It was unbelievable. Welcome back to part three

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Speaker 1: of our case study series. This is the final episode

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Speaker 1: following the case of a woman accused of the murder

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Speaker 1: of her husband. In parts one and two, we told

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Speaker 1: you what happened to the night her husband died, how

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Speaker 1: your regular sworn host Phil designed her defense, and the

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Speaker 1: impossible risks and decisions that led her to enter a

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Speaker 1: plea for a crime she didn't commit. Today, as Phil's

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Speaker 1: wife Natalie mentioned at the beginning of this episode, we'll

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Speaker 1: look at the shocking sentencing hearing in this case. After

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Speaker 1: hearing from all of the expert testimony, the judge sent

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Speaker 1: down a ruling that no one, not even Phil, saw coming.

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Speaker 1: The judge didn't waste a lot of time after we

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Speaker 1: put up hours and hours of testimony and argument. He

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Speaker 1: came back pretty quickly and he may have ruled from

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Speaker 1: the bench. I think he said, well, something like I

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Speaker 1: think she's innocent, so I'm just gonna give her straight probation.

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Speaker 1: I just remember, Holy did I hear him right? Did

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Speaker 1: he just say he's gonna give her straight probation because

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Speaker 1: he thinks she's innocent, And yeah, that's what he said.

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Speaker 1: He decided he was gonna get up give the clerk

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Speaker 1: of court some time to get the paperwork together for sentencing.

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Speaker 1: And it was quite a moment. Her little girl came

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Speaker 1: up to me and give me a hug and said,

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Speaker 1: thank you for saving um. And if you think I'm

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Speaker 1: emotional now, you should see me that day. It's incredible.

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Speaker 1: That sweet girl. I'll never forget her. And I had

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Speaker 1: a little girl with my own woman, you just remind

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Speaker 1: me so much of my job. But the judge came

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Speaker 1: back on the bench and the paperwork done, and and

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Speaker 1: that was that, and we were we were just kind

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Speaker 1: of all shocked and stunned, but very much happy. After that.

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Speaker 1: She was able to start picking the pieces of her

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Speaker 1: life back up and become a mom again, being a

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Speaker 1: citizen and parents and employee and now I'm just a

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Speaker 1: hard working lady. Had you guys expected her to go

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Speaker 1: to jail that day, Yes, very much so. I don't

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Speaker 1: think I told her then. I may have told her since,

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Speaker 1: but I was fully expecting her to leave that courtroom

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Speaker 1: in a waist chain, handcuffs and leg irons. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: expecting her to walk out the front door. It's on

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Speaker 1: a basic level. You know, you plead guilty to manslaughter,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna have to go to prison. That's kind of

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Speaker 1: the default setting. I tried to find out in Georgia

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Speaker 1: if there'd ever been anybody that got probation straight probation

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Speaker 1: from manslaughter. I couldn't find any, at least not in

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Speaker 1: recent history. My research at the time the average sentence

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Speaker 1: was like fourteen or fifteen years from manslaughter. Maybe it

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Speaker 1: was eighteen, actually I think it was eighteen at the time.

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Speaker 1: The average sentences, you know a lot of years in

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Speaker 1: prison for manslaughter, voluntary manslaughter anyway, So straight probation was

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Speaker 1: that's what you know. We asked for it. We asked

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Speaker 1: her fifteen years. If I'd have thought that Judge was

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Speaker 1: gonna believe she was innocent, that we were gonna do

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Speaker 1: that good of a job, I would have maybe asked

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Speaker 1: for less. But I wrote in my written sentencing memorandum

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Speaker 1: my recommendation was fifteen years on probation. I kind of

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Speaker 1: pulled that number out of thin air. I I didn't

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Speaker 1: want to ask for two little time and be insulting.

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to say, Judge, yes, she's pleading to

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Speaker 1: voluntary manslaughter. Even though it's an Alfred Police she's pleading

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Speaker 1: to voluntary manslaughter. We wants you to give her a

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Speaker 1: slap on the risk and give her two years on probation.

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Speaker 1: I didn't want that. I wanted to give him something

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Speaker 1: that he wasn't gonna laugh about. And he said, well,

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Speaker 1: I think she's innocence, I'm gonna give her fifteen years

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Speaker 1: on probation. I was like, holy crap, I should have

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Speaker 1: asked for five or something like that. Hindsight is always

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Speaker 1: And in the end, two or three years out, we

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Speaker 1: we did go back and we we asked for early

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Speaker 1: termination of probation and the motion is granted. So all's well,

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Speaker 1: that ends well, I guess. Unfortunately, she's a convicted felon

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Speaker 1: and she has all the baggage that goes along with that,

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Speaker 1: but she's not on probation. And as I recall, the

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Speaker 1: people at probation, the probation officers and the probation department,

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Speaker 1: they couldn't believe it. They're like, no, she's that. She

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Speaker 1: can't possibly be here for manslaughter. Nobody's ever here from manslaughter.

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Speaker 1: This is probation. We're not the prison. So they they

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Speaker 1: were like, there must be a mistake with your paperwork,

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Speaker 1: and no, there was no mistake. Her initial probation officer

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Speaker 1: I think he's retired now, but he and I talked

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Speaker 1: about this case in the weeks for months afterwards and

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Speaker 1: even the years afterwards, and they didn't even make her

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Speaker 1: really report the probation because they knew she was innocent too.

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Speaker 1: They made some discretionary calls that they're entitled to make.

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Speaker 1: There they said, well, yeah, she's on probation, but we

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Speaker 1: you know, she's paying her monthly supervision fees. We're not

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Speaker 1: gonna be going and visiting me her at home. We're

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Speaker 1: not gonna make her come in and report to us.

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Speaker 1: They have. They essentially had her own non report in

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Speaker 1: probation because I think they knew she was innocent too.

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Speaker 1: I mean, everybody who looked at this case beyond scratching

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Speaker 1: the surface, if they dug down just a little bit,

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Speaker 1: they would see there would be no question that she's innocent.

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Speaker 1: We just did what we had to do. We just

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Speaker 1: stuck it out. This case dragged on for years, and

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Speaker 1: it dragged me down. It dragged me down emotionally, it

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Speaker 1: dragged me down mentally, physically. I was just tired, you know,

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Speaker 1: and but you have to stick it out. We fortunately

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Speaker 1: were able to find the right experts, We had some resources.

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Speaker 1: I think her her father, God bless him. I think

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Speaker 1: he drained his retirement savings. I think he had a

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Speaker 1: sport airplane that he liked to fly his retire e

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Speaker 1: from f A. He sold his his airplane that was

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Speaker 1: his his love, that he was gonna spend his retirement

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Speaker 1: years flying planes around and there's a pilot myself. I

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Speaker 1: hated to see him have to sell something that he

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Speaker 1: thought he was gonna enjoy in retirement. Quite frankly, she

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Speaker 1: was the one. It was extraordinary. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: she held up her family was extraordinary, and the sacrifices

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Speaker 1: they made, it's it's extraordinary what they did. This is

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Speaker 1: Phil's former paralegal, Caitlin. She sat with Natalie at the

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Speaker 1: sentencing hearing and couldn't believe this case she had worked

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Speaker 1: on for years was going to end with the client

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Speaker 1: walking out the front doors. We were still really gambling

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Speaker 1: with the sentence because it was a wide range. It

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Speaker 1: was like no time to fifteen, if I believe correctly.

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Speaker 1: I was worried that the judge might meet in the middle.

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Speaker 1: I think that that was her best option. And I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, after that many years, you're just kind of

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Speaker 1: worn down and you want your life back and you

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Speaker 1: want it to be over and you want to be

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Speaker 1: able to travel to see your family. She was born

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Speaker 1: down and I think I would feel the same way,

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Speaker 1: and I would have gone through it, and I mean

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Speaker 1: I still to this day I haven't worked for Phil

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Speaker 1: and probably six or seven years. If he tells me something,

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Speaker 1: I go that I believe him. He knows what he's

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Speaker 1: talking about. So I think that if he told me

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Speaker 1: to do it, I would do it. The sentencing hearing

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Speaker 1: was unlike anything I've probably will every experience in my life.

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Speaker 1: I remember after it was over telling Phil's wife that

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Speaker 1: it was the happiest I've ever been in my life

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Speaker 1: and it had absolutely nothing to do with me, and

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Speaker 1: that blew my mind. The sentencing hearing was very emotional.

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Speaker 1: Her children read victim impact statements, but they would be

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Speaker 1: hard to hear from anyone, but much less ten year

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Speaker 1: old children. I remember the judge said, do you wished

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Speaker 1: that it could have been tried so that he could

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Speaker 1: find her not guilty? The entire room was crying at points,

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Speaker 1: and when the judge sentenced her to complete probation, I

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Speaker 1: mean everyone cheered, everyone cried it. It was a very

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Speaker 1: beautiful thing. When the sentencing hearing was over, I don't

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Speaker 1: remember exactly what her kids were saying. I just know

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Speaker 1: that they were supporting her. I just remember that they

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Speaker 1: were all in support of their mom, just crying that

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Speaker 1: they need their mom you know, they lost their dad

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Speaker 1: and they need their mom. I remember she was just

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Speaker 1: so nervous. She asked if I could sit with her

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Speaker 1: at the table, But it's not a place for me.

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Speaker 1: Here's Phil's client. When I spoke with her about entering

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Speaker 1: the Alfred plea, even years later, she was calm and resigned. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: I was expecting to hear about how emotional and difficult

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Speaker 1: it was to plead to the crime of killing her husband,

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Speaker 1: a crime she didn't commit. But sitting with me her

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Speaker 1: children in Phil's office when we got to the subject

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Speaker 1: of the plea, she wasn't emotional at all. She was

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Speaker 1: straightforward and sort of stoic. I actually wrote a letter

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Speaker 1: myself to the judge. We weren't able to use it

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Speaker 1: because there was some wording about not really wanting to

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Speaker 1: take a plea. I think that I was not able

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Speaker 1: to use it, but I didn't want to write my

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Speaker 1: own letter. The judge asked me if I was sure

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Speaker 1: that I really wanted to do it, and I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, because I mean I felt like there was

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Speaker 1: no other way to get home. And then they did

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Speaker 1: the sentence saying that he gave me probation the whole

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Speaker 1: thing was surprising. So the fact that I got to

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Speaker 1: go home and be with my family. How weird is

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Speaker 1: that that that would be surprising to me? And surprising

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Speaker 1: isn't even the right word, Like if you don't live

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Speaker 1: through it, you wouldn't even believe it. I mean I was.

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Speaker 1: I was relieved, and I remember that I wanted the

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Speaker 1: acal monitor off, but they had to my kids and

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Speaker 1: my dad and everyone was at the hotel. I didn't

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Speaker 1: have to have the alarm on the incal monitor anymore,

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Speaker 1: but it was still physically on me. So we went

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Speaker 1: to the hotel and I got to stay with the

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Speaker 1: kids and that was nice, and we had dinner. They

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Speaker 1: came early in the morning and they took off the

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Speaker 1: acle monitor in the foyer drop off of the hotel,

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Speaker 1: and uh, we went swimming. I don't harbor any illusions.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of guilty people that you know, we represent,

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Speaker 1: but it's the innocent ones. Once we figure out that

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Speaker 1: they really are innocent, those are the ones that are challenging.

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Speaker 1: I've told people before and I'll say it now. It's

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Speaker 1: a hell of a lot easier to represent somebody who's

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Speaker 1: guilty than it is to represent someone who's innocent, because

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Speaker 1: it's the innocent ones that they keep you awake at night,

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Speaker 1: and that's definitely what happened in this case. For years,

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Speaker 1: this was a traumatic case on everybody. I'm just thinking

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Speaker 1: about it brings back a lot of thoughts and feelings

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Speaker 1: that I haven't have felt in a while. You know,

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Speaker 1: I live with this for years. And not only do

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Speaker 1: I think she's a nice person, I think she wouldn't

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Speaker 1: hurt a flee. I was witnessed the tragedy of epic

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Speaker 1: proportions for this family, regardless of guilt or innocence. You know,

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Speaker 1: a husband and a father was dead, and I'm having

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Speaker 1: to sort through autopsy pictures and look at them like

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Speaker 1: it's a time magazine, putting emotions to the side to

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Speaker 1: try to be objective with it. And now I've got

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Speaker 1: the luxury of, you know, looking at it as a human.

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Speaker 1: But for years I had to look at it and

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Speaker 1: push all these natural emotions to the side. There's just

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Speaker 1: so much that I think a person can take when

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Speaker 1: you talk about this tragedy, this gore, this human suffering

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Speaker 1: and misery, and you just can't. You can't look at

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Speaker 1: it objectively forever. It took its toll, and it still

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Speaker 1: does in a way. During that time period, I mean,

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Speaker 1: lots of things happened. You know, I had small children

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Speaker 1: that I was trying to be a father too, i

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Speaker 1: was trying to be a spouse. I'm trying to go

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Speaker 1: home at the end of the day and not think

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Speaker 1: about all this stuff. You know, it's not healthy, it's

250
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Speaker 1: not good to take your work home with you. But

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Speaker 1: when somebody's trusting you with their life, and their kids

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Speaker 1: are trusting you with their mom's life, it gets to you.

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Speaker 1: And it's the kind of stuff that keeps me awake

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Speaker 1: at night. Let's say, my you know, I've got somebody who,

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Speaker 1: let's just say they're really guilty and maybe the state

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Speaker 1: can't prove it. And I know that I'm not trying

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Speaker 1: to be obtuse about it. But I don't lose a

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Speaker 1: lot of sleep over those types of cases. But it's

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Speaker 1: the it's the innocent people that it wrapped up in

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Speaker 1: this system that calls me to lose sleep at night.

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Speaker 1: The pressure is really on, and frankly, the fact that

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Speaker 1: there are innocent ones that need me is troubling enough,

263
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Speaker 1: But when they actually are looking to me to save them,

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Speaker 1: and their kids are looking at me to save them,

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Speaker 1: and they've got nobody else. It's a lot of pressure

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Speaker 1: and it's a pretty lonely place. This case has changed

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Speaker 1: the way that I look at the system because it's

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Speaker 1: given me some hope that you work hard, you might

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Speaker 1: can get to something close to justice. I mean, I've

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Speaker 1: won jury trials on murder cases where I thought the

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Speaker 1: person was guilty. All these years later, I can look

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Speaker 1: back on several things and I can say, well, I've

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Speaker 1: lost cases that I should have won. One cases I

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00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,360
Speaker 1: should have lost. The bottom lines, I never know what

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Speaker 1: the hell of jury is gonna do. So what this

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Speaker 1: has done is is sort of given me some inspiration,

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Speaker 1: if you will, to know that there may be other

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Speaker 1: ways to get to the same result. We went around

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Speaker 1: on a jury because maybe I didn't trust a jury

280
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Speaker 1: in this case. We got a really good result from

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Speaker 1: the judge in terms of sentencing, and then we later

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Speaker 1: got that probation terminated. If we go back in a

283
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Speaker 1: few more years and maybe apply for a pardon, who

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Speaker 1: knows what we're gonna do. But the bottom line is

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Speaker 1: that we got ninety five percent of what we needed

286
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Speaker 1: in this case, which was a free client. Free mom,

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Speaker 1: a free human being who's innocent. We kept her free.

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Speaker 1: That's everything we need. She's not on long term probation.

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Speaker 1: That's a bonus. So we got most of what we

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Speaker 1: needed through maybe the side door, without having to risk

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Speaker 1: the mandatory sentencing of a murder conviction. I went and

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Speaker 1: I met with my probation officer like they have like

293
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,400
Speaker 1: a oh what do they call? It was like something

294
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Speaker 1: funny like orientation. And then that's how I found out

295
00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,399
Speaker 1: that they had actually changed my probation officer, but they

296
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Speaker 1: didn't tell me. So the first guy was like annoyed

297
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Speaker 1: with me because I kept calling and checking in like

298
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Speaker 1: I was supposed to. And then he told me to

299
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Speaker 1: stop calling him and then if he if he needed me,

300
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:21,359
Speaker 1: he'd call me. And then they filed the paperwork and

301
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,960
Speaker 1: within a certain amount of time after that, I think

302
00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,600
Speaker 1: it was actually April Fools because I remember thinking, please

303
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,879
Speaker 1: don't let this be a joke, and um that I

304
00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,480
Speaker 1: was officially on non reporting and then all I had

305
00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,879
Speaker 1: to do is pay the I think it was like

306
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:43,560
Speaker 1: thirty five dollars a month probation fee. Then we had

307
00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,439
Speaker 1: we went back towards back to court to have the

308
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Speaker 1: early termination of probation, and it was granted to me.

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Speaker 1: I mean, don't think that, like it's so weird to

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Speaker 1: say that. I like, don't think I don't know how

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Speaker 1: lucky I am, because I do know in light of

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Speaker 1: the situation that I'm rigin it. I've read so many

313
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Speaker 1: stories of people so much less fortunate in the outcome

314
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Speaker 1: than my story as far as the legal parts of

315
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Speaker 1: it go. I think I've been incredibly lucky in that department.

316
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Speaker 1: But then at the same time, I never should have

317
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Speaker 1: been in the system in the first place. So then

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Speaker 1: there's that's like mixed with it's like gratefulness tinged with

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00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,280
Speaker 1: bitterness and resentment. It shouldn't have been here in the

320
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Speaker 1: first place, but given the fact that it could have

321
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Speaker 1: gone worse, I guess I'm grateful. I think it's a

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00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,800
Speaker 1: really scary system. I think that there are there are

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Speaker 1: people in tremendous positions of power making judgments about things

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Speaker 1: that I don't know that are always easy easy to

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Speaker 1: pass judgment on. In my own house, if I have

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Speaker 1: one donut left and I come into my house and

327
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Speaker 1: I'm like, where's my last donut? I have a house

328
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Speaker 1: full of kids that are like wasn't me. I didn't

329
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Speaker 1: eat your donut. I may never find out who ate

330
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Speaker 1: my donut, but I can't just go up and point

331
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:06,920
Speaker 1: to that one and be like, you ate my donut.

332
00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,080
Speaker 1: I know you ate my doughnut. And he might or

333
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:11,960
Speaker 1: might not have been the one that ate my donut.

334
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Speaker 1: I can't make a decision of who to be mad

335
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,200
Speaker 1: at if I just don't know. You can't do that

336
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,520
Speaker 1: in your own home, so I don't feel like you

337
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:25,600
Speaker 1: should be able to do that with society. They've got

338
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,600
Speaker 1: to take a step back and like take information and

339
00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,960
Speaker 1: look at it and before because they can't undo what

340
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,560
Speaker 1: has happened here, and they can't undo the people that

341
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:37,960
Speaker 1: you see in the Georgia Innocence Project and stuff like

342
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,639
Speaker 1: that that has spent fifteen years on death row. You

343
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:45,560
Speaker 1: cannot undo that. And you can't undo on the other

344
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,480
Speaker 1: side of the spectrum, you know, somebody who has suffered

345
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,160
Speaker 1: a loss. I mean, I actually have people that I'm

346
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:55,400
Speaker 1: close to that are are victims of violent crimes. One

347
00:19:55,480 --> 00:20:00,879
Speaker 1: person in particular, it has never been solved. There's never

348
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,679
Speaker 1: been any kind of closure in that department for that person.

349
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,320
Speaker 1: You know, you think about that like the world is

350
00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:11,080
Speaker 1: it's it's it's just not that black and white. And

351
00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,720
Speaker 1: I mean, this could happen to anybody. It really could.

352
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,480
Speaker 1: It's all subject to somebody's, you know, perception of how

353
00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:22,120
Speaker 1: they think things happen. I don't trust my perception all

354
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,600
Speaker 1: the time of knowing what happened. I mean, that's that's

355
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,280
Speaker 1: the biggest thing for me. Stop these things before they happen,

356
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,760
Speaker 1: before families get torn apart. And I go to interviews,

357
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,440
Speaker 1: I go to job interviews, and I have to say,

358
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,080
Speaker 1: you know, I feel like I need to be forthcoming.

359
00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,480
Speaker 1: I do have a felony on my record, and people

360
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,480
Speaker 1: are just like, oh really, and then they want to

361
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,000
Speaker 1: hear the story, but they're going to have their own judgments.

362
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,280
Speaker 1: And that's the other thing is I don't want my

363
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:55,240
Speaker 1: family's tragedy to be fodder for other people's entertainment, you know.

364
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,119
Speaker 1: I mean, that's one of the reasons, one of the

365
00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,400
Speaker 1: many reasons I don't really want to use my name

366
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,840
Speaker 1: is because I don't want to exploit, like it was

367
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:10,600
Speaker 1: very painful for us, incredibly painful for me. On top

368
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,239
Speaker 1: of the pain horrifying. Do you know what it's like

369
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,960
Speaker 1: to see a person sitting at pool of blood. Then

370
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 1: take that person made the love of your life and

371
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 1: the father of your children, Like you don't know that.

372
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,440
Speaker 1: I hope to god no one ever knows that that horror.

373
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,760
Speaker 1: I think that's why your brain can't wrap your wrap

374
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,639
Speaker 1: around it is because your brain can't, like there's in

375
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:41,119
Speaker 1: no way your brain can handle that. But when I

376
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,400
Speaker 1: do got interviews for to find better jobs, which I

377
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 1: I haven't been able to to do, I always have

378
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,560
Speaker 1: to work that that tier that you know of of

379
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,639
Speaker 1: jobs that doesn't require background checks, And that's that's a

380
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,560
Speaker 1: tough way to make a living. You know, there are

381
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,679
Speaker 1: certain things that are of sins that are off the

382
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 1: table for you. I wouldn't even want to go back

383
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,760
Speaker 1: to school because what if I went back to school

384
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,680
Speaker 1: and I got a degree in something and they still

385
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,439
Speaker 1: wouldn't hire me. That I'm just in debt. So you

386
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 1: just kind of keep plugging, plugging away and just trying

387
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 1: to get these these kids on their feet. I mean,

388
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 1: I I don't make enough money now, and there was

389
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,720
Speaker 1: so much money spent on the legal expenses. I can't

390
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,399
Speaker 1: send any of my kids to college. Thankfully, they wanted

391
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 1: to come home to me because you know, they could

392
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 1: have stayed in kipe Con and you know probably how

393
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 1: to better financial upbringing that I've been able to offer them.

394
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:49,440
Speaker 1: It's so glad that's Thurble. Did you think about staying

395
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 1: in Massachusetts? I mean, of course I loved it, but

396
00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:02,120
Speaker 1: that was the goal. You know, we never really got

397
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 1: to deal with the loss because we were in survival mode.

398
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 1: I am frozen in time. I go back and revisit

399
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: things all the time. I was talking about their dad

400
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 1: in the car and the way here, and I can

401
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 1: sit here and I can talk into the microphone and

402
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 1: I can talk to my family, I can talk to

403
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:25,919
Speaker 1: the wind, and it doesn't change it. I'm absolutely stuck.

404
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 1: Would you say that I'm stuck somehow? It's in your home.

405
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 1: I mean you see him in your kids. I do

406
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,120
Speaker 1: see him in my kids, And I mean you loved him.

407
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 1: You think about him in the music, everything you know.

408
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:47,680
Speaker 1: In this place, everything is eerily the same. Like We'll

409
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 1: be in the car and I'll be like, oh, your

410
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 1: dad like this song? Orn Like I feel like I

411
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 1: sometimes I want to just stick a sock in my

412
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 1: mouth because I feel like I bring it up too much.

413
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 1: Not not legal stuff, but like I still talk about

414
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 1: their father. I feel like every conversation starts off one way,

415
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 1: but it always comes back around to somehow, back to

416
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 1: that night or back to their father. He's still alive

417
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: in our house. I don't know if that's healthy, but

418
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 1: I keep him. I keep him alive and human being,

419
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 1: getting loved him. You know. I don't think it's negative

420
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 1: to think about him, And I mean, you can't help it.

421
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: You can't though, you know, because if you're thinking about it,

422
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 1: you can either say it or conceal it. So yes,

423
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:55,440
Speaker 1: it's true. On my Christmas tree, I have Christmas ornaments

424
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: that belong to my husband when he was a little boy.

425
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 1: It'll be there someday. Will take it with them, then

426
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,640
Speaker 1: I keep I keep them. We just we went through

427
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 1: a lot together, not just you know how it all ended.

428
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 1: That's the funny thing about about marriage. It's not just

429
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: the good times, but when you are married, you go

430
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: through life. Take care. At the end of a lot

431
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: of our episodes, we have a segment that we here

432
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 1: at the production team called Phil's Final Thoughts. But for

433
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,959
Speaker 1: years Phil's client was silenced, her voice taken away and

434
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 1: run over by all these problems and assumptions and hoops

435
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 1: in the legal system, so we wanted to give her

436
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 1: the final thoughts. Today. It's not going to make up

437
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 1: for the years of confusion and silence, but I know

438
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: from talking with her that she learned a lot about

439
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: the realities of the a system, and hopefully sharing this

440
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: story helps shed some light on how we as a

441
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 1: society think about justice and how important it is to

442
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: be able to defend yourself. My friend, who's actually the

443
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 1: crime victim, felt like it would be cathartic for me

444
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 1: to talk about it because I don't like to talk

445
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 1: about it, and to have that little piece of my

446
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: voice heard that I was never really allowed to use,

447
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 1: and it's and it's like I'm trying to find balance

448
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 1: in and having my voice heard but also protecting my family.

449
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 1: So I do want the anonymity, but I also want

450
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: my voice heard, which is really selfish in me. But

451
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 1: I want both of those things. I don't want to

452
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: be angry. It's a lot easier to be angry than

453
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 1: it is to be vulnerable. I want to heal. I

454
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 1: want to heal for them, and I want to heal

455
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 1: from me. I don't want to be locked in the past.

456
00:26:55,520 --> 00:27:00,159
Speaker 1: I want to free myself from this like bubble of

457
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: sadness that I live in for most of my life.

458
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 1: And I hope that there's someone out there that if

459
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 1: they're going through this and they feel completely alone and

460
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: that nobody understands and they're feeling helpless and they don't

461
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 1: have a voice, and they're looking for somebody that that

462
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: they can relate to, I would like to be that

463
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 1: person for them, because I didn't have that for me.

464
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how you protect yourself from it.

465
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: You know, I would have There's nothing I would have

466
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: done differently. I still would have tried to take a

467
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: gun away from my husband. I still would have called one,

468
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 1: and I still would have done all those things that

469
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: night like would not have changed. Hopefully, somebody somewhere is

470
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 1: looking at this in depth enough that they're going to

471
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: make some changes. And I do think that it needs

472
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 1: I do think there's problems with the judicial system, but

473
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: I think it has to start with how the police

474
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 1: interpret situations. I think it has to start there, because

475
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: that's once that ball gets rolling, I don't know that

476
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: they can stop it. It's you know, the momentum just

477
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 1: keeps growing and growing and growing, and I think everybody

478
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: gets fired up and everyone wants to win. And I

479
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: don't think that they think about us as people. I

480
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: think we're like pawns in a game. Because I actually

481
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 1: had a friend when this was all happening, and I'm

482
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: sitting there in my ankle monitor and we were watching

483
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 1: the news and they had arrested this guy on the

484
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 1: news and my friend said, oh, well they got the

485
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 1: guy and I said, well, we don't know that yet.

486
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: We have to see how this plays out. And she said, well,

487
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: he obviously did something or they wouldn't have arrested him.

488
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: So I know that a lot of people watch the

489
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: news and they hear these stories and they just are like, well,

490
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: something had to have happened or none of this would

491
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,479
Speaker 1: have happened. And I'm telling you that, yes, something happened,

492
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: but not what you think happened. If you know, the

493
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: police wouldn't arrest you if something hadn't happened, and it's

494
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily true. Like when I watch the news,

495
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: like I'm a human being, and sometimes I watch it

496
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: and I make decisions where I'm like, oh, that person

497
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: did this or that, and then I have to go,

498
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: wait a minute, I don't really know that yet. You know,

499
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: and you've got to let things play out. You can't

500
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: just make these decisions of if this happened, then that

501
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: must have happened. But you just don't know. But I

502
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: do know that a lot of people make that assumption.

503
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 1: And I do know that when people hear about my story,

504
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: there are going to be people that are going to

505
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: make the assumption, well, you know, none of this would

506
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: have happened had X y Z happened. And I know that,

507
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 1: and it's and it's the reality that I live in.

508
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: But the only people that really matters to me that

509
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: believe in me are are my family. Prior to this happening.

510
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: If I were to sit there on a jury which

511
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: I never had jury duty, and I were to see

512
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: a defendant getting paraded in and shock goals and jail

513
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: uniform and I was basically told that they had committed

514
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: a crime, I don't know that I would be as

515
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: objective as I am today, that I would be able

516
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: to sit back and say, we'll give you the give

517
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: me the facts first, that I would be able to

518
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: to to not just assume. It's so easy to sit

519
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 1: down in your comfortable chair in your living room and

520
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: watch the news and think that you are untouchable and

521
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: like these things happen because other people bring these things

522
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: upon themselves, you know, and it's so easy to do

523
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: that and then get called to jury and then like

524
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: have somebody paraded in front of you and think, well,

525
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: you know that would never happen to me. Something you

526
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: know else might have must have happened. It's just not

527
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: like that. And if you take the time to read

528
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: any of these stories, I searched and searched and read countless, countless,

529
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: countless stories of all these different people who were falsely accused,

530
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: I mean like almost to the point of like fraudulent testimony,

531
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: like not because they felt like it was justice, but

532
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: just to get these convictions I'm guessing, to get the

533
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: public off their back. And then it turns out twenty

534
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: years later that DNA exonerates these people. You know, we

535
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: should be afraid as citizens because it's a tremendous amount

536
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: of power to give to these people. It sounds really

537
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: good when you're sitting in your chair, but if those

538
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: tables ever get turned on you, you're screwed. Thanks for

539
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: joining us on this case study. Again, just want to

540
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: take a minute to say thank you to Phil's client

541
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: and her family for sharing this story with us. As

542
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: Caitlin said, they aren't people I'm likely to forget. If

543
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: you have any questions or comments on anything you've heard

544
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: so far this season, give us a call at four

545
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: oh four zero zero four four one, Thanks for listening.

546
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: Sworn is a production of Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Radio.

547
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: Our lead producer is Christina Dana. Executive producers are Payne

548
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 1: Lindsay and Donald Albright for Tenderfoot TV, Matt Frederick and

549
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: Alex Williams for I Heart Radio, and myself Philip Holloway.

550
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: Additional production by Trevor Young, Mason Lindsay, Mike Rooney, Jamie Albright,

551
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: and Hallie Beadall. Original music and sound designed by Makeup

552
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: and Vanity Set. Our theme song is Blood in the

553
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: Water by Layup. Show art and design is by Trevor Eisler,

554
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: editing by Christina Dana, Mixing and mastering by Mike Rooney

555
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: and Cooper Skinner. Special thanks to the team at I

556
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: Heart Radio from u t a or In rosenbaumd and

557
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: Grace Royer, Ryan Nord and Matthew Papa from the Nord Group,

558
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 1: back Media and Marketing, and Station sixteen I'd also like

559
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 1: to extend a very personal and special thanks to all

560
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: of our contributors and guests who have helped to make

561
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: all of these episodes possible. You can find Sworn on Facebook, Twitter,

562
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: and Instagram at Sworn podcast and follow me your host,

563
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 1: Philip Holloway on Twitter at phil Holloway e s Q.

564
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,719
Speaker 1: Our website is sworn podcast dot com, and you can

565
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: check out other Tenderfoot TV podcasts at www dot tenderfoot

566
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: dot tv. If you have questions or comments, you can

567
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: email us at Sworn at tenderfoot dot tv or leave

568
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: us a voicemail at four zero four for one zero

569
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: zero four four one. As always, thanks for listening