1 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: My wife called me and she said, I got this 2 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 1: phone call, and I said, oh my god, Marge, what 3 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: did you tell them? 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 2: How much have you told them? 5 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: She was telling me was that there were some bones 6 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: that were found in a wall in a house. I said, 7 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: that sounds like just such a scam. 8 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 3: Investigating a cold case is challenging. Often the crime scene 9 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 3: evidence is damaged or contaminated, witnesses may have died, and 10 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 3: police reports are sometimes lost, and then there are inexplicable mysteries. 11 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 3: In the past, I'd always thought human remains were found 12 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 3: pretty soon after a crime, or if it takes a while, 13 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 3: that they're found in secluded spots, like in the woods 14 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,559 Speaker 3: off a main road or in a field behind a barn. 15 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 3: But what if there remains sitting right next to you 16 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 3: for years? They could be anywhere at your office and 17 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 3: a friend's backyard, or maybe in your own home. Producer 18 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 3: Catherine Fenalosa is here with one of the oldest unidentified 19 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 3: human remains cases ever to be solved. 20 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 4: This case takes place outside of Chicago, and it's nineteen 21 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 4: seventy eight. Okay, so you got to go back a bit, 22 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 4: and there's a couple, James and Martha Skinner, and they've 23 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 4: rented this house, and it's a cute house. I actually 24 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 4: looked it up. Then it's a shingled house, two stories 25 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 4: with a little picket fence. It's in a little town 26 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 4: called Batavia. And even though they're renting this house, they 27 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 4: decide to do some renovations. It's a Sunday. They are 28 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,839 Speaker 4: taking down the baseboard and part of a wall, and 29 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 4: Martha starts to notice that things are falling out of 30 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 4: the wall and hitting the floor. First she notices a 31 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 4: corn cob, which is like a little. 32 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 3: Weird right, like an ear of corn. 33 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 4: Yes, an ear of corn. But the house was built 34 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 4: in the eighteen fifties, so it's not totally out of 35 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 4: the norm for people to have like stuffed things in 36 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 4: the walls as insulation. So then five shoes, not pairs 37 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 4: of shoes, but just five individual shoes, a couple of 38 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 4: old bottles, and then a woman's bonnet, a black bonnet, 39 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 4: so picture like a cotton hat that you would tie 40 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 4: under the chind. This bonnet is fairly old. And then. 41 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 3: A jaw bone, like a human jaw bone. 42 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 4: Martha Skinner says, and I went back and read the 43 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 4: newspaper article that was written at the time. Martha Skinner says, 44 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 4: the second the jawbone hit the ground, I knew it 45 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 4: was human, and she freaks out. So they pull a 46 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 4: little more of the wall apart and part of a 47 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 4: human skull falls down. So at this point Martha and 48 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 4: James are completely freaked out and they call the police. 49 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, my immediate thought would be like serial killer, you know. 50 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 4: So that was on their minds. So they call the police. 51 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 4: The police come and they bring a cadaver dog with them, 52 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 4: and the police officers lead the dog around the house 53 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 4: and the dog doesn't stop and show interest in any 54 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 4: other spots of the house, just this one particular area 55 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 4: of the wall, and they determine that's it. 56 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 3: I just think that if I found human remains in 57 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 3: my wall, first of all, I would not be able 58 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 3: to sleep that night. Second of all, I would be like, 59 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 3: am I in danger? 60 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 5: Now? 61 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:25,799 Speaker 3: If I bring these remain to the police. Will someone 62 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 3: come in here in the middle of the night and 63 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 3: try to take other evidence out of the walls? You 64 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 3: don't know who knows about the remains, where they're from, 65 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 3: what crime was involved, what the motive was. 66 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 4: Martha did admit that she was worried that a murder 67 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 4: had happened in the house. 68 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 3: I mean, obviously a crime was involved if there are 69 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:46,239 Speaker 3: human remains in a wall. 70 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 4: There are photos from that Sunday when they take down 71 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 4: part of this wall and you can see Martha down 72 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 4: on the ground looking at all of the you know, 73 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 4: the bottles and the shoes that have fallen to the floor. 74 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 4: And her first thought was exactly the same as yours. Alan, 75 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 4: I mean, she was like, Oh, my god, did a 76 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 4: serial killer live here? Like, are we living in the 77 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 4: middle of a crime scene and we had no idea? 78 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 4: Oh and are there other bodies buried in this house? 79 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 3: What a nightmare. I would need to get a hotel. 80 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 3: I would get out of there. Oh my goodness, I know. 81 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 4: So the police do their investigation, they look through their 82 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 4: missing person reports and it's not leading them anywhere, so 83 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 4: they actually reach out to one of the top forensic 84 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 4: anthropologists at the time. His name is doctor Clyde snow 85 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 4: And Alan, this guy is a really big deal. He 86 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 4: worked on serial killer John Wayne Gacy's case. He examined 87 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 4: JFK's remains and even toot in common the Egyptian pharaoh 88 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 4: from three thousand years ago, and so Snow determines that 89 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 4: this skull is really old. It probably belonged to a 90 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 4: white female. He's thinking someone like sixteen to eighteen years 91 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 4: old who died before nineteen hundred. So this skull is 92 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 4: at least say ninety four years old by the time 93 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 4: they find it. 94 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 3: How many different people have lived there, just eating their 95 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 3: dinner next to this body in the wall. What a 96 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 3: horrifying thought. 97 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 4: They list this as a Jane Doe case, and they 98 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 4: decide to ship the skull to the local history museum 99 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 4: in town, and the case goes cold. So that's nineteen 100 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 4: seventy eight. Fast forward to twenty twenty one. There is 101 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 4: an employee who works at this history museum in Batavia, Illinois, 102 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 4: and she's cleaning out an office and there is a 103 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 4: box and she opens the box and she is shocked 104 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 4: to find parts of a skull in this box. Yeah, 105 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 4: so she freaks. 106 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 3: Out yet again. This person their remains are just getting 107 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 3: moved around to random locations, and we still don't know 108 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 3: even who it is or how they died. 109 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 4: We have no idea. She calls the police, and the 110 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 4: police again look through their records and they realize that 111 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 4: these are the same exact remains that were found in 112 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 4: this house. So they take them back and the case 113 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 4: is officially reopened. 114 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 3: Finally. It's actually kind of miraculous that after all that 115 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 3: it does get reopened. 116 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 5: I know. 117 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 4: So this box with the skull lands on the desk 118 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 4: of Gabriella Allison. She's an investigator in the cold case 119 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 4: unit of the Kane County Corner's Office in Illinois, and 120 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 4: ailan she's actually the perfect person to look into this 121 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 4: case because it really hits home for her. 122 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 6: My grandfather was murdered and basically everybody knew what happened, 123 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 6: but nobody investigated. The police knew, everybody knew, and unfortunately 124 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 6: my grandma she really just kind of had to move 125 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 6: away and not know anything as to, you know, having 126 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 6: any justice for his case. So for me, it's obviously 127 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 6: about the families and if I can help families get 128 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 6: some answers in a way of maybe giving back to 129 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 6: my family in some sort of you know way. 130 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 4: Oh my god, And she basically promises herself that even 131 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 4: though this case seems unsolvable, we owe it to whoever 132 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 4: this person is to give them a name. This can't 133 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 4: stay as a Jane Doe. The information that she had 134 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 4: to go on was that this skull probably along to 135 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 4: a young woman, you know, sixteen to eighteen years old. 136 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 3: And this was a person who lived and had a name, 137 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 3: had a family, had a life story. 138 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, and they wanted to put these remains to rest 139 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,719 Speaker 4: and to understand who this person was and how they 140 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 4: ended up in the wall of a house, which is 141 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 4: also an incredible mystery in itself. 142 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, because you know someone put them there. To be honest, 143 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 3: if I were a Gabriella, where would you even start. 144 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 3: I mean there's no one to talk to who was there, 145 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:40,599 Speaker 3: who knows what happened. I mean, how could you possibly 146 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 3: know what to do? 147 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 4: I asked Gabriella that exact question. So she and the 148 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 4: corner at the time, a guy named Rob Russell, they 149 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 4: jump right in. They realized they're going to need help 150 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 4: since the only evidence they have to work with are 151 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 4: these skeletal remains, and with no other clues, it comes 152 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 4: down to get DNA from the skull, because without it, 153 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 4: this goes back to being a cold case. 154 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 3: Okay, so the best shot at solving this case rests 155 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 3: on getting DNA from the skull. 156 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 4: Yes, Gabriella and Rob at the corner's office reach out 157 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 4: to authram and the lab agrees to take the case, 158 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 4: but first Alan they need Gabriella to ship them the 159 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 4: skull hang on. 160 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 3: I know we've talked about a number of cases at 161 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 3: this point, and they've all had to send incredibly valuable 162 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:48,479 Speaker 3: evidence to Authroom's lab, But I gotta admit I'm fascinated 163 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 3: with what happens behind the scenes. I mean, this can't 164 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 3: be like shipping a birthday present to a friend or wait, 165 00:10:59,240 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 3: is it. 166 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 4: So it's kind of wild. It's both highly orchestrated and 167 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 4: shockingly simple at the same time. So I visited the 168 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 4: Authroom offices a while back, and basically every morning a 169 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 4: similar scene plays out. 170 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 7: I had to detail the type of package that I received, 171 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,559 Speaker 7: who I got it from, and then had to detail 172 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 7: the time and day that I got it. 173 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 4: That's Raina Ramirez. She's the first person you meet when 174 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 4: walking into the Authroom offices. She's at her desk, bright 175 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 4: and early, and pretty immediately trucks start rolling in. There's FedEx, ups, 176 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 4: DHL and the post office. 177 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,599 Speaker 8: One two, three, four, six. 178 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 4: And on this day, six cardboard packages are quickly stacked 179 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 4: on Reina's desk. 180 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 8: It all depends how I was shipped equally Express Priority 181 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 8: or just a regular delivery. So those typically get here 182 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 8: in the afternoon, but if it was Priori, they'll be 183 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 8: here before seven o'clock in the morning. If they are 184 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 8: going to be FedEx expressed, they'll be here between nine 185 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 8: to eleven o'clock in the morning. 186 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 3: So this is where crime scene evidence lands when it's 187 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,239 Speaker 3: shipped from state crime labs and police departments. 188 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, and packages hold human remains like this job, but 189 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 4: it could also be vials of blood, teeth, scraps of 190 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 4: blood stained clothing, really anything with DNA. 191 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 8: The first step is to inspect and make sure that 192 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 8: it's not open or any damage at all. Then I 193 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 8: take pictures of all sides of the box and angles. Again, 194 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 8: what are making sure that there's no tampering with the evidence. 195 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:52,319 Speaker 4: Raina quickly enters the information into a database and the 196 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 4: boxes are taken into an evidence room. 197 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 3: Do the delivery drivers know what they're delivering. 198 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 8: So they're more regular ones. They know what they're bringing 199 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 8: because they've been seeing us on TV or stuff like that. 200 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 8: Like all these package is Priority needs to go to 201 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 8: ATUM and typically they don't like to miss my route 202 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 8: because of their snacks. 203 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 4: Raina's got tons of snacks dashed behind her desk. She's 204 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 4: got bottles of gatorade and cold water, bags of chips 205 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 4: and cookies. She wants to make Authrum their first delivery 206 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 4: stop of the day. 207 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 3: She's a smart woman. I mean these packages are priceless. 208 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 4: Really yeah, And she says, the drivers are really part 209 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 4: of this work. 210 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 8: They're amazing. There's one particular FedEx guy that he was 211 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,199 Speaker 8: amazed by our Christmas tree. 212 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 4: So every winter Authorum puts up a tree in the 213 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 4: lobby and instead of ornaments, they hang pictures of victims 214 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 4: whose cases they've solved. 215 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 8: And when he saw the pictures, he's like, it makes 216 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 8: me proud that, in a tiny part, I'm part of 217 00:13:59,520 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 8: that salut. 218 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 3: Oh wow. So I have to ask, does NA know 219 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 3: what's inside every box that lands on her desk? 220 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 8: I don't. On my end, I try to avoid even 221 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 8: focusing on who's the center. I feel like the less 222 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 8: I know, the better I guess subconsciously protect myself. I 223 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 8: don't know, but my part, it's concentrating on the tracking number. 224 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 8: That's all I need to know. I don't need to 225 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 8: know anything else. That's for the scientists. That have to 226 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 8: do the magic. 227 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 3: Good for her, but honestly, I'd be so curious to 228 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 3: know what evidence was inside. So back to Gabriella in 229 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 3: the Kane County Corner's office. 230 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, so Authurne just told her, Hey, ship us the 231 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 4: skull that was found in the wall of the house 232 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 4: and we'll see what we can find out about it. 233 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 6: Yeah, I just put it in a box and ship 234 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 6: it to us, and I'm like, do you know what 235 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 6: you're asking me? So we packed it up, you know, 236 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 6: lots of bubble wrap, and then I'll never forget when 237 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 6: I was at the FedEx, I'm like, the person was 238 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 6: asking me the value of it, and I'm like, uh, yeah, right, 239 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 6: but I wrote like fragile all over it. I'm like, 240 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 6: please be really careful. You know, you're just kind of 241 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 6: like freaking out because obviously if something happens to it, 242 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 6: I mean, you've lost your taste and you've lost human remains, 243 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 6: which would not be good. 244 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 4: Gabriella did a great job packing up the skull because 245 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 4: it arrives undamaged, and after Raina enters it into their 246 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 4: chain of custody, it's unpacked and examined in the lab. 247 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 4: Now this is a highly controlled environment. Forensic scientists wear 248 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 4: head to toe white coveralls with gloves and goggles. And 249 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 4: the day I visited, a technician had a human leg 250 00:15:58,080 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 4: bone laid out on a table. 251 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 3: Oh, it's like a sci fi movie or something. 252 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, And Kristin Middleman of Authorham explains what happens next. 253 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 5: Here we are in the bone room. So this is 254 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 5: a human bone, and you can see here she has 255 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 5: the measuring tape out and she's this is an unidentified 256 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 5: remains case. You can see that the remains are pretty 257 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 5: old because you can see all that classification and stuff 258 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 5: on the outside. 259 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 3: Where were you watching from? Were you in the room 260 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 3: with the bone? 261 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 4: So we weren't in the room because it's such a 262 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 4: highly controlled environment. But we're standing just outside of the 263 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 4: bone room, which has floor to ceiling glass. 264 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 5: And so what she's going to do now is she's 265 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 5: going to label and photograph all of this and then 266 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 5: she's going to drill into that bone and get a 267 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 5: small amount of the interior of the bone so that 268 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 5: the DNA can be extracted. And once she does that, 269 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 5: and she's linda it right now so you can watch it. 270 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 5: She's going to take that part of the bone and 271 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 5: solubilize it in a solution and then start to extract 272 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 5: the DNA and that's when it goes back into the 273 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 5: DNA extraction room. 274 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 3: I can hear the sound of the drill. 275 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, and it sort of looks like if you were 276 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 4: to drill through a piece of pottery, like there's some 277 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 4: dust coming up. Once the technician is done, the bone 278 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 4: samples are run through custom built machines and software that 279 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 4: identify hundreds of thousands of DNA markers. All of these 280 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,199 Speaker 4: are tiny clues as to who this person is. 281 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 3: So I'm guessing this is the same thing that happens 282 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 3: to the skull gabriellasent. And once the DNA is extracted, 283 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 3: what happens because we need a name, like who does 284 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 3: this skull belong to? 285 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,959 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, And that's where authrm's team of genetic genealogists come. 286 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 9: Men, my name is Carla Davis, and I am the 287 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 9: chief genetic genealogist at AUTHRON. 288 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 4: Carla Davis and her team take the genetic profile that's 289 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,959 Speaker 4: been generated and they start building out family trees. 290 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,479 Speaker 3: I'm fascinated by this part of the investigation, so I 291 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 3: was really excited to talk to Carla and ask her 292 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 3: how she got into this kind of work. 293 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 9: I was born into it because I was born not 294 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 9: knowing who my father was, and that part of me 295 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 9: was always missing. It was as if there was a 296 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 9: hole in my heart. Right and DNA came on the scene. 297 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 9: So my first DNA test was on twenty three and 298 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 9: meter and at that time, I had like to eighth cousins. 299 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 9: I didn't know what to do with fifth to eighth cousins. 300 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 9: I didn't understand how DNA worked, and I didn't know 301 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 9: anyone on my list. Right, I'm like, oh, this is 302 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 9: not going to help. Then I took an ancestry DNA test. 303 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 9: I had a third cousin match, and I said, Okay, 304 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 9: I think I can do something with a third cousin match. 305 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 9: So I just started absorbing and learning anything and everything 306 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 9: that I could get my hands on. So how to 307 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 9: apply DNA evidence to genealogical research? And I'm like, I'm 308 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 9: on something here, and then I ended up identifying my 309 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 9: birth father. 310 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 3: What was that like for you? Even emotionally? 311 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 9: Oh my goodness, you know, it was like if you 312 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 9: look at a picture and you tear it in half, 313 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 9: you only see half of that person. You don't see 314 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 9: the other half. 315 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 3: It's just. 316 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 9: Finding who he was, even though he had passed away 317 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 9: back in two thousand and five. And completed the picture 318 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 9: of who I. 319 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 3: Was, Carla learned that her dad was a truck driver 320 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 3: and an amateur race car driver, and that she was 321 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 3: his only child. And I should add that Carla's mom 322 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 3: died when she was five, so she grew up desperate 323 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 3: to know more about both of her parents. After that discovery, 324 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 3: Carla says she became kind of addicted to genealogy research 325 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 3: and she started helping adoptees who were looking for their 326 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 3: birth parents. She ends up solving over two hundred cases, 327 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 3: and before she knows it, strangers are emailing her asking 328 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 3: for her help. 329 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 9: So when the Golden State Killer was announced, it was like, 330 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 9: I can apply what I know. So I knew that 331 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 9: this was this was going to be the future of 332 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 9: how perpetrators and unidentified human remains would be identified. 333 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 4: So how does she make the leap to working on 334 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 4: crime scene evidence? 335 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, good question. I was curious about that too. 336 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 9: For me, it really is personal because when my daughter 337 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 9: was ten years old, her friend was kidnapped and brutally 338 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 9: murdered and her body was thrown in the ravine in 339 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 9: your Orleans and it was devastating, not just to my daughter, 340 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 9: to myself, to the entire community. It was as if 341 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 9: time stopped until she was found. 342 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 3: What did that mean to that community? 343 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 9: She was just our house, just the weekend prior to 344 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 9: her being taken. I didn't want my daughter going outside 345 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 9: to play anymore. I was scared to death for that. 346 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 9: When a person is taken and they go missing, it's 347 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 9: not just their family that suffers. Is such a larger scale. Yeah, 348 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,879 Speaker 9: So to get them home and give everyone answers. I 349 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:36,199 Speaker 9: don't think anyone has closure, but somehow it's information that 350 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 9: will allow them to hopefully heal. That should be our mission. 351 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 3: I wanted to talk about the case of the human 352 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 3: skull found in the wall of the house you worked 353 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 3: on that. 354 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 9: One of the things that caught my attention was this 355 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 9: person died before for nineteen hundred, This could be one 356 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 9: of the oldest cases that author them solves, And sure enough, 357 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 9: it was one of the oldest cases that we have 358 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 9: solved to date. 359 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 3: What was challenging about the case. 360 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,360 Speaker 9: So, if you've ever taken a consumer DNA test, once 361 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 9: your results are complete, you are given a list of 362 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 9: names that are your genetic relatives, and in this case, 363 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 9: the most recent common ancestors dated back to the late 364 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 9: seventeen hundreds. 365 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. 366 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 9: So we had to use historical records, census records, birth certificates, 367 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 9: birth records, death announcements, death records, military records, whatever we 368 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 9: can use to identify each generation. 369 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 3: In this case, Carla is able to track down ancestors 370 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 3: a couple who had six kids, and based on the DNA, 371 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,399 Speaker 3: she thinks the skull belongs to one of the six kids. 372 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 4: So after almost two hundred years, there are only six 373 00:22:58,240 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 4: people that these bones could belong to. 374 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 9: Two two sons, and four daughters. One daughter had died 375 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 9: when she was eight years old. Two of the other 376 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 9: daughters lived full lives and they had died and were 377 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 9: buried in Nebraska. But there was one daughter that really 378 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 9: we were focused on, and that was Esther. Esther was 379 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 9: born in eighteen forty eight. 380 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 3: So now you have to confirm Esther's identity with one 381 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 3: of her living relatives. 382 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:37,360 Speaker 9: So I mentioned that Esther had one daughter, so that 383 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 9: daughter had two children, So then we identified who those 384 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 9: children were, and then we got down to living people. 385 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 4: At this point, Authoram gives Gabriella Allison at the Kane 386 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 4: County Corner's Office a short list of names because they 387 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 4: need one more DNA sample, and this time from someone 388 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 4: who's alive. 389 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 2: Well it started. 390 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: My wife got a phone call and it was Gabriella 391 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: calling from the Kinge County Corner's office. 392 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 2: I was at work. 393 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: My wife called me and she said, I got this 394 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 1: phone call. And I said, oh my god, Marge, that 395 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: sounds like just such a scam. My wife said, no, 396 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: you should call him back. 397 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 2: I think it's the real deal. 398 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 4: Wayne Swiller is a retiree living in Oregon, and he 399 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,239 Speaker 4: listens to his wife and he calls Gabriella back, and 400 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 4: Gabriella begins to explain why she's calling. 401 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 2: I interrupted her and I said, hey, I just got 402 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,199 Speaker 2: to tell you right off the bat, I don't believe you. 403 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 2: This is just too incredible. 404 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 4: And it turns out he's a former police officer who's 405 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 4: worked cold cases for decades. 406 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 3: Oh so maybe he's skeptical from experience. 407 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean he knows this call could be a scam. 408 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 4: Maybe like someone he put behind bars years ago is 409 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 4: trying to get back at him. But his wife is intrigued, 410 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 4: and she convinces him to give Gabriella a chance to explain. 411 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,959 Speaker 2: They knew the history of the whole case, and they 412 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 2: were so excited and committed that I thought, you can't 413 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 2: fake this. These guys are all in and I've got 414 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 2: to help him out whatever I can do. 415 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 3: It's ironic that, having investigated cold cases in the past, 416 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 3: now weans on the other end of the phone. 417 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, and he knows how it feels for Gabriella to 418 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 4: make that call because he's done it so many times 419 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 4: himself in homicides and missing person cases. 420 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 2: You don't just work that job and then leave, do 421 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 2: You take that job with you because you get to 422 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 2: know the families. You get to know the victims. There's 423 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 2: mothers of some of these victims that will come down 424 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 2: to the precinct every year on the anniversary of their 425 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,160 Speaker 2: son or daughter's death and just check in and see 426 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 2: if there's been any new developments. I mean, you're talk 427 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 2: in twenty years after their loved one has been killed, 428 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 2: and it made it really personal. That's more than a 429 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 2: job that walks around with you. 430 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 3: I'm guessing Wayne agrees to give some of his DNA. 431 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, he gives what's called a DNA reference swab, which 432 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 4: is really just a quick swab from the inside of 433 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 4: his cheek. 434 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 3: Is it a match? 435 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 10: Yeah? 436 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 4: It turns out that Esther Ann Granger is Wayne's great 437 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 4: great grandmother. 438 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 3: Oh my god, that's so cool. So now that we 439 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 3: have a name, what do we know about her? 440 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,719 Speaker 4: She was born in Indiana in eighteen forty eight, and 441 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 4: she marries her husband, Charles, when she's sixteen. Esther becomes 442 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 4: pregnant pretty soon after that with her first child, but sadly, 443 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,640 Speaker 4: she dies after giving birth to her daughter, who they 444 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 4: also named Esther. 445 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 3: Oh that's so sad. But that's so sweet that they 446 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 3: named her daughter after her. But I also wonder how 447 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 3: did her skull end up in the wall of a 448 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 3: home eighty miles away in Illinois? And where's the rest 449 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 3: of her body? 450 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, I know a lot of people have been wondering 451 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 4: about that. Gabriella and Rob have some ideas well. 452 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 10: The running theory is that she was grave robbed. Her 453 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 10: body was sold to somebody, you know, a medical school 454 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 10: or individual who was a broker. Kind of gross to 455 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 10: talk about, but a broker of body parts. We don't 456 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 10: know if she was sold as a whole, or if 457 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 10: they parted it out and sold it to different types 458 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 10: of schools. 459 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 6: We also know the first home owner that had the 460 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 6: house built. He was a doctor. He died soon after that, 461 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 6: and his son stayed and lived there and he was 462 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 6: a surgeon. How she actually got in the wall, I 463 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 6: don't know that we'll ever know. 464 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 3: So we don't know if the rest of Uster's body 465 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 3: is so in that house. 466 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 4: We don't. But remember the cadaver dog didn't smell anything, 467 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 4: and police back then didn't have any reasons really to 468 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 4: take apart any more of the walls, So maybe we 469 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 4: won't ever know. 470 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 3: What about Wayne, what does he do with Esther's skull? 471 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 4: So officials in Batavia, Illinois, where Esther's remains were found, 472 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 4: offered to cremate the skull and inter her ashes in 473 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 4: the local cemetery, and Wayne traveled to be there. 474 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 2: I think in some ways my reaction surprised me. I've 475 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 2: been really a private person. It was just that wave 476 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 2: of emotions that I never got to meet her, and 477 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 2: kind of I guess sadness about how we got to 478 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 2: where we were, but also just the emotion of closure 479 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 2: and the respect that she deserved and wishing that she 480 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 2: had a different path right, sad that she had died 481 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,239 Speaker 2: at such a young age, and then the way that 482 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 2: her remains retreated in the process. And I don't blame 483 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 2: anybody for that. From almost the beginning, I felt like 484 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 2: this story needed to be told. Your life makes a 485 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 2: difference the people you touch it made a difference, and 486 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 2: it needs to be acknowledged. 487 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 3: It strikes me that solving this case not only gives 488 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 3: esther back her identity, but it fills in some of 489 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 3: Wayne's family history, connecting him to ancestors he didn't even 490 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 3: know existed. 491 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 4: And it's a case with no eyewitnesses, no clues. I mean, 492 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 4: there's not even a crime scene to investigate, and it 493 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 4: all came down to DNA to solve a mystery from 494 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,719 Speaker 4: one hundred and fifty years ago. 495 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 3: Next Time on America's Crime Lab. 496 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 11: Received a nine one one call from a neighbor. When 497 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 11: they answered the door, they found her in nothing but 498 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 11: a blood soaked T shirt. 499 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 3: You know what it looks like. 500 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 10: There's another case in another state that it also has 501 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 10: unknown DNA that. 502 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 3: Is the same. 503 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 11: You know, then, I'm really excited. Now we have a 504 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 11: potential suspect. 505 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 3: America's Crime Lab is produced by Rococo Punch for Kaleidoscope. 506 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 3: Erica Lance is our story editor, and sound design is 507 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 3: by David Woji. Our producing team is Catherine Fenalosa, Emily 508 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 3: Foreman and Jessica Albert. Our Executive producers are Kate Osborne, 509 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 3: Mangesh Hattigadour and David and Kristin Middleman and from iHeart 510 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 3: Katrina Norville and Ali Perry. Special thanks to Connell Byrne, 511 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 3: Will Pearson, Carrie Lieberman, Nikki Etour, Nathan Etowski, John Burbank, 512 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 3: and the entire team at AUTHRM. I'm Ailen Lance Lesser. 513 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.