1 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: You're listening to Disinformed, a mini series from There Are 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. Today marks 3 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: the start of Trump's second impeachment trial for his role 4 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 1: in the insurrection on January Ray six. Here's Maryland Representative 5 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: Jamie Raskin earlier today at the trial. If that's not 6 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: an impeachable offense, then there is no such thing. On 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: the day Congress met to finalize the presidential election, they 8 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: would have you believe there is absolutely nothing the Senate 9 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: to do about it. Now, it's clear that Trump continuously 10 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: used social media to spread disinformation, including the repeated baseless 11 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: lie that he won the election and that it was 12 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: being stolen from him. That lie, as we know, culminated 13 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: in his supporters attacking in the Capitol. But even before that, 14 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: Trump has always used social media to incite violence, stoke tensions, 15 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: and spread distortions and baseless claims. That is is until January, 16 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 1: when Facebook, Twitter and other platforms finally gave Trump the boot. 17 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: But don't give tech leaders too much credit. They only 18 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: did this after years of pressure from platform accountability advocates, 19 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: who warned that failure to act could lead to the 20 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: kind of violence that we saw on January six, and 21 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: even now Facebook's oversight board is weighing whether they made 22 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: the right decision by kicking Trump off the platform. So 23 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: it's possible that we haven't even heard the last of 24 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: Trump on social media. A lot of people were questioning 25 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: by banning Trump from social media, his free speech was 26 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: being threatened. But Nora Benevidez, free speech attorney and the 27 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: director of US Free Expression Programs at Pan America Foundation, 28 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: a nonprofit that protects and promotes free expression, says that 29 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 1: when it comes to understanding free speech on social media platforms, 30 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: a lot of us are asking the wrong questions. I 31 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: remember when the insurrection happened, it felt for me like 32 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: total whiplash. There was still a kind of hesitancy, you know, 33 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: concern like what was going to happen in the lead 34 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: up to the inaugus ration. And so that January six 35 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: just somehow felt not too surprising, but still very very 36 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: jarring and um and in you know, the weeks that 37 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 1: have followed, we've just tried to, you know, be responsive 38 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: to people. You know, people have questions like were the 39 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: people storming the capital exercising their First Amendment rights? Did 40 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: Trump have a right to be on Twitter and on Facebook. Um, 41 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: and so a lot of questions have emerged that we've 42 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: just tried to be ready to answer and to talk 43 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: with people about what's really happening, because they're really really 44 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: complex issues, so full disclosure. Like I have worked, as 45 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,399 Speaker 1: you know, work with organizations that have tried to pressure 46 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: social media platforms two take disinformation seriously, and so a 47 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: big part of that has been asking them to remove 48 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: Trump when he, you know, tweets things that are insidiary 49 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: or like inciting violence. And truly, I don't think I 50 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,399 Speaker 1: ever thought I would see Trump be banned from platforms 51 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: like I'm When that happened, I was fully kind of 52 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: surprised because I think I was quite used to the 53 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: idea that oh, he's just above consequences, our accountability there 54 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: there will never be any of it. So, um, you know, 55 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: I was, I was quite surprised. What did you think 56 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: when you saw Trump being banned from these platforms? The 57 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 1: insurrection happened on a I think Wednesday, and then the 58 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: cascade of first, you know, there were labels placed on 59 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: a video of his there were then he was banned, 60 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: you know, permanently suspended from Twitter, and it just sort 61 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: of felt like this jaw dropping cascade where I was like, 62 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: this is really happening, and immediately though, uh, you know, 63 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: I was watching on my own Twitter, people saying this 64 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: violates the First Amendment. This is like an egregious assault 65 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: on free speech. There was so much hate and confusion 66 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: and frankly miseducation. And part of what you know is 67 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: important to keep in mind is that Twitter, Facebook, those 68 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: are private companies, and you know, I am a First 69 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: Amendment lawyer, like I firmly believe in the ability for 70 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: all of us to engage in open discourse to hear 71 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: what other people think. But Trump has absolutely contributed to, 72 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: if not been, the biggest super spreader of dangerous misinformation 73 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 1: um that I think is absolutely disinformation, you know, with 74 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:28,119 Speaker 1: the goal of kind of dividing us and making people 75 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: believe these false narratives. Deep platforming is actually pretty effective. 76 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,239 Speaker 1: Booting Trump from social media almost immediately slowed the spread 77 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: of false information on those platforms. Signal Labs found that 78 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: false claims about election rigging dropped from two point five 79 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: million mentions to six hundred eighty eight thousand mentions across platforms, 80 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: and hashtag is commonly used to spread election rigging claims 81 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: like hashtag March for Trump dropped by nine point And 82 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 1: it's not just Trump. A study conducted by the Election 83 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: Integrity Partnership found that just a few dozen O Trump 84 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: Twitter accounts, including Trump's own account, where the original sources, 85 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: for about a fifth of misleading election claims around the election. 86 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 1: It really goes to show you how just a small 87 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: handful of accounts can be responsible for major chaos on platforms. 88 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: I was actually very much in favor of his being removed. 89 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: I think what was necessary and really good was that 90 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 1: data immediately emerged from a couple of researchers that found 91 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: about seventy of the misinformation that had been on Twitter 92 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: was no longer there thanks to his removal, along with 93 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: the removal of about thirty seven others who were sort 94 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: of the biggest influencers and spreaders of misinformation. And I 95 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: think that we need data like that to be able 96 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,799 Speaker 1: to make the case again to platforms in the future, 97 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: because you know, the big criticism was this just didn't 98 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 1: happen soon enough, and I'm all here for the criticism, 99 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: but I also think we need to lay the foundation for, 100 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: like what are solid policy and community guideline standards that 101 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: the platforms are implementing that then have dated a backup 102 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 1: that when they do that, it benefits the health of 103 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: the Internet. People were able to say, like, here was 104 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: the measurable impact of banning Trump and and other accounts 105 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: who were responsible for spreading this kind of thing. Here 106 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: was the measurable impact. And truly what has been the downside? 107 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: Less noise, less lies, you know, spreading like wildfire on 108 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 1: these platforms. I it's been interesting to see how there 109 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: was such a quick benefit, like a quick naldous benefit, 110 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: with like very few in my book, if any downsides. 111 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: I think there maybe the downside of people who supported 112 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,359 Speaker 1: Trump feeling somehow more quote unquote like in air quotes 113 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: I'm doing this sensoring um, and that somehow their censorship 114 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 1: right makes them emotional, driving them potentially to be more upset. 115 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: And you know, my work on sort of the psychology 116 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: side of misinformation and that I think we have to, 117 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: you know, stay vigilant to the ways that people will 118 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: be emotional to information, the way we are all emotional 119 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: to news. I mean, our relationship to news is emotional. UM. 120 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: We've seen the way you know, platforms hinge our interactions 121 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: on our likes or dislikes, and so it's I think 122 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: important to make sure we don't completely marginalize people that 123 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: may actually be movable. Uh maybe not today, but down 124 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: the line. And so I just I kind of have 125 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: this like lingering concern about how we engage those that 126 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: continue to believe alternate realities, you know, that continue to 127 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: want to see Trump um. And it's really hard to 128 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: read to those people. So I just it's like a 129 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: sort of weird gut instinct where I kind of wonder, 130 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: what are they thinking about. How can we sort of 131 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: call them in and and talk with them about these 132 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: issues in ways where, you know, if they had been 133 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: unmovable before. Slowly, slowly, some of these Trump supporters are 134 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: starting to see the cracks in that reality. I hadn't 135 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: even thought about that, um, sort of the kind of 136 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: emotional response that someone might have to feeling the shame of, 137 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: you know, a platform saying your ideas what you have 138 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: to say is not acceptable here. I hadn't even really 139 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: thought about that. And I think it really highlights to 140 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: me that at the heart of a lot of your 141 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: work with Pan America and just generally is empathy and 142 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: sort of trying to remember that deep down we're talking 143 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: about people. People are all complex. We we are all 144 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: all humans are like driven by a complex series of 145 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 1: feelings and motivations internally, and so remembering that these are 146 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: not just users quote unquote with their people who have 147 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: these complex emotional responses. I think that empathy can get 148 00:08:56,120 --> 00:09:00,079 Speaker 1: lost in conversations about disinformation and how it spreads and 149 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: what motivates people to spread it. Um. But I am 150 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: grateful that though that that idea seems to be at 151 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: the heart of so much of the work that you 152 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: do to create off ramps for folks like this bridget. 153 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: I have to say I never thought I would play 154 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 1: even close to like the therapist role that I feel 155 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: like I do sometimes, um, you know, being a lawyer 156 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: thinking about the law, thinking about legality on Twitter or Facebook, 157 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: and yet being faced with people who ask questions and 158 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: actually want to engage somehow. And I think that the 159 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: the problem the Internet has bred is that, as we 160 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: all know, we're siloed. We seek out our own and 161 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: difference of any sort, whether it's something we can accept 162 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: and listen to, or something we find so offensive and egregious, 163 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 1: like we simply want to shut it down and not 164 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,559 Speaker 1: hear it UM and Trump I think went so far 165 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: as too then when he heard things he didn't like, 166 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: he called those lies. And the tendency, of course is 167 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: to uh, you know, shut people out, to disengage, and 168 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 1: that is not getting us anywhere. In fact, I think 169 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: the idea that we never engage with people who are radicalizing, 170 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: or that we never seek out others has led to 171 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: things like the insurrection where we need to engage. We 172 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: need to find entry points, and I think we need 173 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: to have a kind of expectation setting where we're not 174 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: all going to agree, but we can exist in disagreement 175 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: and be civil and believe in each other's humanity. UM. 176 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: Of course, if our disagreement is grounded in someone believing 177 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: you or I shouldn't exist or have the same rights, 178 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: that's different. But the level of empathy that I hope 179 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: we can bring sometimes to our online discourse is something 180 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: that can try to create space for understanding UM. And 181 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: I'm really glad that you see and talk about empathy 182 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 1: in this way, that you see the value of those 183 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: things that as one who is a storyteller, you know 184 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:06,319 Speaker 1: you focus in media and stories like it's so critical 185 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: to remember that even if we find it somehow offensive, 186 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: like we have to find ways to engage and find 187 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: each other's humanity. Even if it sounds corny. It doesn't 188 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 1: sound corny. I mean, I often it's it's you said 189 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: that you feel like a therapist. And when I have 190 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: these conversations about tech platforms, it's funny how often they 191 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: turn they turned to sort of things that sound a 192 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 1: bit corny, like empathy or you know, remind remembering there's 193 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: a human at the on the other end of the screen, 194 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: things like that. Um, and I think you you really 195 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: hit on something. That is one of the reasons why 196 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: I'm so interested in disinformation and making the show is 197 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 1: that I feel that the thing that you just described 198 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: as silos and sort of note people being closed off 199 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 1: and all that, I feel like we've gotten to a 200 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: place where you can no longer assume it's it's no 201 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: longer easy to assume good faith when you're having discussions 202 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: on the internet. Right. So, when I first got online, 203 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: the reason why I found such a freedom and love 204 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 1: of talking on the internet was because it felt like 205 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: I was able to reach so many different people, get 206 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: so many different perspectives, and it felt relatively safe. Now, 207 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 1: I feel that that doesn't like that safety is gone right, 208 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: Like like when I have a conversation with somebody on Twitter, 209 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: I'm not sure if there's someone who we can have 210 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: a good faith disagreement or a good faith dialogue. It 211 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:24,839 Speaker 1: just feels like we're no longer able to assume good 212 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: faith in all of our discourse online because the temperature 213 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 1: has been turned up so high, in part by things 214 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: like disinformation and you know, lies and and and violent 215 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: rhetoric online. I'm gonna make it really personal. Sometimes I 216 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: get retweeted on Twitter by people who then have a 217 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: comment about my tweet, and often the assumptions, often wild 218 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: assumptions people will make about more of me and who 219 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: I am, UM really stress me out. And I totally 220 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: totally know what you're saying, where it feels like you 221 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: may not be able to trust someone, um. And so 222 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: I often try to then engage with the people that 223 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: retweet me, whether it is someone on frankly any side 224 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: of the political spectrum making these assumptions and in no 225 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: way to defend myself, but just to open conversation. I've 226 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: had really wonderful learning experiences where people will kind of 227 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: turned down their temperature when I respond in ways that 228 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 1: engage them with open ended questions, um, which is hard 229 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: to do. I mean, you can't do that at scale 230 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: every day. Um. And that's one of the questions that 231 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: I think about all the time, is how we scale empathy. 232 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: But in the meantime, those like little one off that 233 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: can help change or slowly, you know, bring people together 234 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: and help their attitudes kind of move at a slower 235 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: pace where they're assuming less about me or you. I 236 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: think it's a great thing. Um. And the Internet has changed. 237 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 1: I mean I remember when something like section to thirty 238 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: you know, not to get technical, but when that was 239 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: an exciting regulation to actually help people feel safer on 240 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 1: the internet, to be able to like have conversations on 241 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: blogs and the you know, the internet is just such 242 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:17,199 Speaker 1: a different place now that it feels so um you're 243 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: always like just about to have a complete crisis on Twitter. 244 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: That's how I always fey. I'm like, oh, this could 245 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: really go badly, and and we can't all spend all 246 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: of our days, you know, having those meaningful, slow conversations. 247 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: So I guess I just sort of wonder, like, how 248 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: do we scale empathy. Let's pick a quick break and 249 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: we're backing. I say this a lot. We need to 250 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: completely reimagine how we think of the Internet, and that 251 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: means we're thinking so much of the infrastructure around technology. 252 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: It means creating a tech press that's enters and valorizes empathy, 253 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: not scale. It means building platforms that center people, not 254 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: quote users or clicks or how much time we spend 255 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: with our faces at a screen. Now, what I'm describing 256 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: is a radical reimagining. And it might sound as big 257 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: or as complicated as like smashing the patriarchy or ending 258 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: white supremacy, but I believe that it's possible. I think 259 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: there are enough people out there like you and me 260 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: who truly believe in the power and possibility of the 261 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: Internet and the power of expression. And I believe that 262 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: when we come together, big radical things really are possible. 263 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: And I know that we have the power to radically 264 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: rethink the Internet so that it's safer and more accessible 265 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: and so that it works for more people. I totally agree. 266 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: I mean, and smashing the patriarchy and ending white supremacy 267 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: are also you know, valid and worthwhile. Endeavor is how 268 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: I feel like all of it, Just yes, and to 269 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: everything um, you know the best tech emphasis like the 270 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: people who are working on innovation, uh that I think 271 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: are doing best work. Understand that these are not tech issues. 272 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: They're human issues, and we're never going to solve everything 273 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: by sort of abdicating control or brainstorming to what can 274 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: be automated, what you know, AI can do, what the 275 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: platforms can do better, somehow to basically game our way 276 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: out of what humans are fundamentally now doing, which is 277 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: why are we hateful sometimes? Like why are we bigoted? 278 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: Why do people have an interest in trolling others? Um? 279 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: And so I think that, you know, a lot of 280 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: the solutions have to be human centered, where we instead 281 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: of just saying, oh, well the platforms can do X, 282 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: y Z, or the government can do all these other things, like, 283 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: well what can we do? You know, like what can 284 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: everyday people do to feel more empowered? Like maybe they 285 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: can build imagine this, like build an ecosystem of users 286 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: and other people they enjoy connecting with. I mean, can 287 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: you imagine the joy of actually thinking that your Twitter 288 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: feed is an interesting place to learn things instead of 289 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 1: just who has the best like breaking news hundred and 290 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: forty character tweet? Um, that would be really exciting. I 291 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: think so. I I love the idea, and I think 292 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: they're just need to be more of us doing this, 293 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,479 Speaker 1: Like more of us committed to talking about humans and 294 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 1: how humans fit into what we're doing as users, because 295 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: it really should go the other way around. Users don't 296 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: come first, It should be people coming first. You're actually 297 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: doing a lot of that work in terms of building 298 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: more people who see things like that. You know, at 299 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: pen you have these this weekly series where you you know, 300 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 1: are joined by other journalists and other thinkers to help 301 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 1: people understand the role that we all play in making 302 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 1: the Internet a better place. Um, can you talk about 303 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: some of the steps that people, anyone listening could take 304 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: to help make the Internet a safer and better place. 305 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 1: Oh that's like my favorite question. Um, you just you 306 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: got me at the sweet spot. I'm like, here we go. Um, well, 307 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: you know, we've we've looked at disinformation for years and 308 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 1: everyone always asks what's the solution, and so kind of 309 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 1: to you know, my last point, I think a lot 310 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: of it we have to focus on humans and give 311 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: people power to you know, take control of what they're 312 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: seeing online. So I always think it's best to frankly, 313 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: just start with understanding what you do when you're online, 314 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: you know, like, how are you consuming information? Bridget? Is 315 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: it on Twitter? Are you, let's be honest, are you 316 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 1: going to Facebook? And are you clicking on links? Or 317 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: you maybe privately just reading the headline that I shared 318 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,479 Speaker 1: or your other friends shared, Like let's be real, you know, 319 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 1: like sometimes that's all I do. I'm like, oh, I 320 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: can make a wild assumption based on what Bridget shared 321 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 1: and I'm not even clicking the link. So just sort 322 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:45,360 Speaker 1: of like taking up pulse being honest with yourself. Are 323 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: you going to Fox News? Are you going to the 324 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: New York Times? Are you going to you know, news websites? 325 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 1: How are you doing things? Are you listening to podcasts 326 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: like this? I think it's good to know how you 327 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 1: consume information, And then I also think with that, we 328 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 1: should all start asking ourselves how we feel when we're online, 329 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 1: Like are you feeling anxious when you read things? Are 330 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: you angry? A lot of times, disinformation will thrive because 331 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: we're emotional and we often want to share things. We 332 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: want to engage with people quickly, and so we'll accept 333 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: something without fact checking it, without thinking about or asking ourselves. 334 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 1: You know, who wrote this where did it come from? 335 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: Why am I seeing it? So if you can just 336 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: sort of pause like that is my number one recommendation. 337 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: Pause to ask a number of things, but just pause, um, 338 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: and from slowing down, I think we actually could all benefit. 339 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: You know, we could potentially share less misinformation. We could 340 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: also then think more carefully about what our own attitudes 341 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: are based on what we're seeing. Um, a whole host 342 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: of I mean, frankly, empathy could arise out of just 343 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: slowing down and uh and getting to a place where 344 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: we're not just like a disliking loving laughing at things, 345 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: but maybe where we're in a place of huh. I 346 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: want to learn more about that. Yeah, if you could 347 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:08,719 Speaker 1: see my if you were in my kitchen right now 348 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: where I am, I have a post it note on 349 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: my laptop that just says slow down. And it's just 350 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: a reminder for me just in all the ways, because 351 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 1: I can sometimes move too quickly, just in life. But yeah, 352 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: but I think that that the idea of just taking 353 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: a breath, taking a beat has been so helpful. It 354 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: sounds so it sounds so basic, but you know, I 355 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: but before I started really thinking critically about the way 356 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: that I felt when I was online, I would be 357 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: moving so quickly, and then when I started to slow 358 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: down a bit, I actually kept a little journal. So 359 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: if I saw something that made me feel anxious, I 360 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: would write that down. If I saw something that made 361 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,679 Speaker 1: me my heart race, I would write that down. If 362 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: I saw something that made me laugh, I would write 363 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: that down. And from doing that, I really saw the 364 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: ways that I It's just like my brain chemistry was 365 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,719 Speaker 1: just firing so quickly and I was and even stopping 366 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: to think. And I find that you know when you 367 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: have those moments where somebody tweets something and they like 368 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: really wish they had it and it's going viable and 369 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,199 Speaker 1: they're like, oh God, I always wonder were they in 370 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: that moment where they've just been seeing so many different 371 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 1: takes and different jokes and different tweets their brain is 372 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: no longer processing what they're doing, that they're just putting 373 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: a tweet into the world without even really thinking about it. 374 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: And so I really find so much value in almost 375 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 1: thinking about using the Internet as a kind of meditative 376 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 1: practice and an opportunity to really be mindful of how 377 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: just how you're doing, how you're feeling. Are you anxious, 378 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: are you emotional like what's going on, as opposed to 379 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,199 Speaker 1: something where you're just like mindlessly scrolling and not really 380 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: not really being in charge of your you know, of 381 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: your physios like your emotions and your brain and all 382 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 1: of that. I if I could do away with one 383 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 1: term this year especially, it would be doom scrolling, because one, 384 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 1: I mean, when are we not doom scrolling nowadays? You know, 385 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: like news is never an inspiring but also it's so passive. 386 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 1: And part of what I think is really great about 387 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: what you're explaining is that you have literally taken control 388 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: of what you're doing. You know, to say, I'm going 389 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 1: to proactively write things down, I'm going to question and 390 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 1: reflect on what I'm feeling. Um, you know, sometimes just 391 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: the sheer act of feeling like you're in the driver's 392 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: seat whatever it is then that you end up doing, 393 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 1: if it's writing your feelings down, if it's deciding not 394 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: to tweet, but just thinking of yourself as the one 395 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,199 Speaker 1: that's in control instead of doom scrolling, I think is 396 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: so exciting for people, and it's a weird. It's almost 397 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: like a mind shift where people once I say it, 398 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 1: sometimes in our trainings, people will say I didn't even 399 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: think that I could curate my news feed that way, 400 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: and I'm like, yes, Like we can choose, and it 401 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: would be so exciting to be stimulated not just totally 402 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: freaked out by what we're seeing exactly. And I think 403 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 1: that's something that I think that everybody can take away. 404 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: You might not be able so just this week, we 405 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: might not be able to, you know, topple the stranglehold 406 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: that some of these platforms seem to have on our democracy, 407 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: on our discourse. But individually, you can control how you 408 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: consume social media. You can you delete Facebook from your 409 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: phone and say like I'm only going to go on 410 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 1: from my browser twice a day or something like that, 411 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: Like we might we might not be able to control 412 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,199 Speaker 1: how these things show up in a larger way, but 413 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: we can control how they show up to us personally, 414 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 1: how they show up in our household, like whether you 415 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: take your phone to bed to doom, scroll Twitter before 416 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 1: sleep or not. Like those are choices that that we 417 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,199 Speaker 1: have control over, not anybody else. And so you know, 418 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 1: really trying to internalize that we do have some control, 419 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: even though sometimes it feels like we don't. You're not 420 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: going to be great at this overnight you know it 421 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: won't be like suddenly you feel more excited or eager 422 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: to be online and to find this healthy your Internet. 423 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 1: But I think that it can slowly lead to other practices. 424 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 1: And if you can start with slowing down, so let's say, 425 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: just questioning yourself, you know, scrolling at a slower pace 426 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: finding than interesting articles and pieces of content and people 427 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: to follow and connect with, then you may frankly start 428 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: wondering other things. You know, you can maybe get better 429 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 1: at spotting when a headline lacks context. You know, I've 430 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 1: gotten to the point where it's it has It doesn't 431 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: happen overnight, but you know, you can sort of be 432 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: scrolling and you read a piece of content and you're like, huh, 433 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: I would normally be really upset by that. Why would 434 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: I be upset? Like? Could I explore what the underlying 435 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: reason would be? And when you slow down like that 436 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: to ask deeper questions not just about my own reaction, 437 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 1: but about the piece of content you're seeing. I actually 438 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: think we all are training ourselves to have a kind 439 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: of media literacy and digital literacy that everyone's going to 440 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: need in the future. I Mean, the Internet isn't going away, 441 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 1: so we need that eventually. The other thing is disinformation 442 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: is a service for higher It's an industry, and disinformation 443 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: is not going away. Online hate is not going away. 444 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,880 Speaker 1: So we all if we just a little tiny bit 445 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,919 Speaker 1: chipped away at and built up better and better practices, 446 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 1: we could truly help create the ecosystems we enjoy that 447 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 1: have less of that um and at scale. You know, 448 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 1: it isn't perfect, but it's at least one piece of 449 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 1: how we can help create something that's healthier and frankly 450 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: less hateful. More after a quick break, let's get right 451 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: back into it. I believe that the only way that 452 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 1: some of these platforms will meaningfully, you know, rethink the 453 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,959 Speaker 1: role they've had in spreading misinformation and hate is if 454 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: we make it unprofitable, right and so like, if it 455 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: if it hurts your bottom line to traffic in hate 456 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: and violent rhetoric and disinformation. That's the only way that 457 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: I think that some of these companies will stop trafficking 458 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,439 Speaker 1: in it, I guess, and that I think that the 459 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: way to do that can be so individual, Like I'm 460 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 1: not going to engage with it. I'm not going to 461 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: amplify it, I'm not going to support it. If if 462 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: I see that kind of thing online. I'm not going to, 463 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: you know, I'm going to kind of divest from it. 464 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 1: I think I think that I think a lot of 465 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,679 Speaker 1: that can be driven by individuals. I'm thinking of the 466 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 1: headline divesting from disinformation. Yes, all, you should all be 467 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: doing that. I think that's your article. Bridge. I mean, 468 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: I think the other I don't want to seem too 469 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: corny and that, like you know, humans are going to 470 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 1: solve all of it, because I think the platforms have 471 00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: so much responsibility and um, I I think the future 472 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: of minimizing how toxic the Internet can be in part 473 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 1: is that the platforms have to begin informing users in 474 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: better ways. And I don't know if you and I've 475 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: ever talked about it, but I think that Twitter's very 476 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: first step into putting labels on content really saw a 477 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: horrible moment from the media's perspective when people started calling 478 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: these warning labels um because I think that that has 479 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: such a negative connotation, and I think that labels and 480 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: the platform mechanisms to slow people down are actually a 481 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: fantastic measure that we should be encouraging and learning about. 482 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: Um it's the stuff that absent me teaching millions of Americans, 483 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 1: let's say about media literacy. Platforms can help slow people down. 484 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: So I think there's like this other piece also that 485 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: can happen in tandem to you and me taking control 486 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: that the platforms try to find ways to very you know, 487 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: in a nonpartisan, careful edgecative manner, slow people down, um, 488 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: and just do the thing that we're already doing a 489 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 1: little bit, you know, question what we're seeing, UM, wonder 490 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 1: if there are ways that we want to explore or 491 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: learn more about something, um, if we know that it's misleading. Yeah. 492 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: Even so you mentioned like when you share something based 493 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: on a headline, that thing that Twitter has now, which 494 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: I think is a great tool, but sometimes I feel 495 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 1: kind of dragged by it where it's like, do you 496 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 1: want to read the article before you read tweet it? 497 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: How many times have you not read it? Bridge be honest, 498 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: because I every time haven't read it. Yes, And it's 499 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: it's honestly is a good reminder And when I get it, 500 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, come on, I this is I'm retweeting 501 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: an article by somebody that I know, like I trust them, 502 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: But it is a good reminder to just like, what's 503 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: the hurry? Why don't you just read it, you know, 504 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: and it really sometimes I'm like, drag me Twitter functionality, 505 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: But so you want to switch gears a little bit. 506 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: As we're seeing right now, that's the officials are being 507 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: held accountable for their role in either supporting or inciting 508 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: the insurrection. Trump was obviously kicked off social media platforms. 509 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: Senator Josh Holly's book was briefly dropped by its publisher, 510 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: and kind of along the same lines of free speech online, 511 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of people asking questions about what 512 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,719 Speaker 1: is commonly known as quote cancel culture. So what are 513 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: your thoughts on so called cancel culture? As a free 514 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: speech attorney? Are these free speech issues? Uh? You know, 515 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to give you the short answer, which is 516 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: it's really hard. Um. Lawyers will often say it depends. 517 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: And part of what I think is difficult is that 518 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: cancel culture often seems to imply that you're going to be, 519 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: in a way, um, canceled from an existing platform, you know, 520 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: like from your base, which also then to me, suggests 521 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: that you have a base to be canceled from. Um. 522 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: You know, you don't talk about canceling someone who isn't 523 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: very well known, And I think there's this interesting power 524 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: dynamic within the like paradigm of thinking that there's a 525 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: cancel culture. I think it's more interesting, UM to weigh 526 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: what's at stake here. You know, when we think about 527 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: someone like Donald Trump, was he canceled? Uh? I honestly 528 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 1: think that he was legitimately taken off the Internet because 529 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,239 Speaker 1: of the real world harm his words online have, And 530 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: that is not canceled culture. That is like a very 531 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: deep difficult balance where all of us, whether it is regulators, policymakers, 532 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: platform people, everyday users like you and me, like, what 533 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: are his words doing to our world? It is a 534 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: drastically dangerous step when he spreads lies, when he sow's discord, 535 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: when he promotes hate, all of the different ways that 536 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: I think the platforms maybe in being late somehow, if 537 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: I had to guess, we're thinking that it would not 538 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: be that bad, not be that bad, And somehow the 539 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: insurrection was that crack, that like breaking point where people realized, oh, 540 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: online issues have real world harms, which has happened before. 541 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: We've seen it. When there are mass shootings, We've seen it. 542 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: When there are acts of terrorism, you know, and like 543 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: other types of bombings, UM and what's fascinating in that 544 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: moment is that I'm like, is that cancel culture? Like? 545 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: I don't think that is. I think that that is 546 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: a private company taking necessary actions to limit or triage 547 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: the type of real world harm that's happening. I think 548 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: it was absolutely too late, and I always think that 549 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: it was too late. At the same time, Donald Trump 550 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: is a public figure and was an elected official who 551 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: was leading this country, and so there is also this 552 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: interest in hearing unno you know, sort of unedited what 553 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: he says, and so from a free expression perspective, I 554 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: always wonder what is the most speech we can have 555 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 1: with the least harm. I think we passed the harm 556 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: point frankly some time ago. Um, but there's definitely I 557 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: think we have to stay committed to having access all 558 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 1: of us to various forms of expression, because free expression 559 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: rights aren't just Donald Trump's right to say what he wants. 560 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: We all have free expression rights to access what various 561 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: people are saying. I have the right to then hear 562 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: what you were saying. You have the right to hear 563 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 1: what I am saying. And in some parts of the world, 564 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: part of what we have to keep in mind is Facebook, Twitter, 565 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: that's all the Internet, that's all people have, that's the 566 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: only connection they have to what's happening politically. We are 567 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: seeing right now in my and mar with the Internet 568 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 1: being shut down, that is a political tactic to silence 569 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: dissidents and dissent. And so it's a difficult question to 570 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 1: answer when there are questions implicated in that larger one 571 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: around who is speaking, what is the effect offline? Is 572 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: it damaging when in total it seems to tip the 573 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: scales towards violence and hate. I have to say, in general, 574 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: I hate conversations about quote cancel culture because the concept 575 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: just seems so disingenuous. When people talk about the importance 576 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 1: of being willing to engage ideas one might not agree 577 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: with it, always, somehow seems like marginalized people are the 578 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: ones expected to be doing the engaging and arguing with 579 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: people who are hell been on misunderstanding you is exhausting. 580 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: And if you aren't even able to talk about something 581 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 1: with a shared set of guiding facts, the sky is 582 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: blue toothless to us. For Trump lost the election, then 583 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: it can really get thorny. When the election happened in 584 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: November and Biden one there was I think rightly a 585 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: kind of exhaustion. You know, people were so tired of 586 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: fighting and eager to disengage completely um from what might 587 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: be different. And I I'm with a lot of those people. 588 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: I think it's really exhausting work to try to engage 589 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: with people who disagree, and you have to always know 590 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: that ultimately, you know, a lot of conversations will not 591 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 1: be productive. They and it isn't on you or me 592 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: to do the labor of teaching someone like someone else's 593 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 1: teachable moment isn't necessarily my job. At the same time, 594 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: I think like the crisis and the basic human crisis 595 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: we're in of how divided we are merits of very 596 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: serious examination that we all need to sit with of 597 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: like what is it where we are interested in disengaging 598 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 1: all the time with anything different? Um? And that permeates 599 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: all of us. And so I think the thesis is, 600 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: you know, why are we driven to do things that 601 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 1: divide us? And then how can we overcome our own 602 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: instincts to actually broker conversation, to find an entry point, 603 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,720 Speaker 1: even if it's little, and even if it only happens 604 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: for a couple of minutes, Like that is the beginning 605 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,319 Speaker 1: of being able to find what I think is the 606 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: antidote to disinformation, where we have a shared basis of facts, 607 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: even if you and I disagree on policies, like we 608 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: can both look at a set of facts and say, yeah, 609 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,879 Speaker 1: that's what we're basing our opinion on. And we may 610 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: different then on what we think needs to happen, but 611 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 1: we can agree on certain things. And we have absolutely 612 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 1: not reached that point of being able to agree on 613 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 1: basic facts. Yeah, that's exactly where I want to get 614 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: us to. You know, we can disagree, but we are 615 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 1: all on the same page about some basic facts. You know, 616 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: two plus two is four. This guy is blue. We 617 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 1: have a shared understanding of reality, and it's sad to 618 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: me that we're not there. Pe actually found that among 619 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: Trump voters say that he definitely won the election. Another 620 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 1: thirty cent say that he probably won the election. And 621 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,360 Speaker 1: this week Reuter's pulled members of Congress now that of 622 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,800 Speaker 1: them wouldn't say one way or the other whether or 623 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: not they agreed with Trump that the election had been 624 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: stolen from him, and two of them still say the 625 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: election was stolen from Trump. So it's like we're not 626 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 1: even speaking the same language. We do not have a 627 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,399 Speaker 1: shared reality, and it seems like such a low bar, 628 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:54,360 Speaker 1: but that's where I want to get us to a 629 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: place where we have a shared reality. I mean, it 630 00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,839 Speaker 1: should be a low bar, but honestly, there's there's also 631 00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: just like so much bigotry and hate that a lot 632 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: of those kinds of civil discussions are not grounded in 633 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: mutual humanity. So, you know, my civil rights background is like, 634 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 1: how do we have the most for the most people, 635 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 1: and how do we maintain and protect basic rights for 636 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: people who have traditionally and historically been marginalized in every institution. 637 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 1: So there's this other piece that informs the work I 638 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 1: do and how I think about miss and disinformation because 639 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 1: I know that it affects different communities differently. Black and 640 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,399 Speaker 1: brown people are targeted with disinformation so that they are 641 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: disenfranchised and believe their voice doesn't matter. So sort of 642 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 1: in the middle of all of it, I'm like, I 643 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 1: still very much have eyes wide open that some of 644 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 1: us will be affected, targeted, and marginalized in more specific 645 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:54,239 Speaker 1: and acute ways that have massive effects on democracy. So 646 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,320 Speaker 1: I don't want to sit here like Pollyanna. You know, Oh, 647 00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 1: it's all gonna be great if we could just find 648 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,839 Speaker 1: moments of like factual shared belief, because some of that 649 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,240 Speaker 1: assumes that other people will believe you and I matter 650 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,720 Speaker 1: as much as anyone else, and um, and the reality 651 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,239 Speaker 1: is a lot of people don't think that. But some 652 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: some are movable, Some are people where you engage and 653 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: they are not like hateful people interested in less for 654 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: certain people. And that's the moment where I'm hoping to 655 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 1: reach at least some pockets of the United States. So 656 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: you stund pretty hopeful, oh, bridget I actually have a 657 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,280 Speaker 1: lot of hope. I mean, you know, when I was younger, 658 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: I don't want to get to misty eyed, but like 659 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,760 Speaker 1: you know, I would work in the South with people 660 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: like John Lewis and civil rights figures, and they always 661 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: said that change takes a lifetime. It takes many lifetimes, 662 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: and um, and this intractable issue of how we connect 663 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 1: is one of the biggest issues I think of our lifetime. 664 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,799 Speaker 1: And uh, it's very slow. So I am hopeful in 665 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: the sense that I see every day more and more 666 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 1: people interested in doing this work. I see movement lawyers, 667 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,800 Speaker 1: I see amazing researchers finding data, you know, and trying 668 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,360 Speaker 1: to find ways to triage the way the internet is 669 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,800 Speaker 1: making us all bleed um, and I'm very hopeful it 670 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 1: just it takes a long time, and for every step forward, 671 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: there will be three steps back and then maybe two 672 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: steps forward, um, maybe another step forward. So it's it's 673 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,479 Speaker 1: really just sort of like a dance with democracy, where 674 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: can folks keep up with you? And can you tell 675 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: us more about the weekly trainings that pat America is 676 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 1: running so people can always follow me at Attorney Noura. 677 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,759 Speaker 1: I'm Attorney Noura on every platform um. And then pen 678 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:51,760 Speaker 1: America has trainings around media literacy and disinformation defense almost 679 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,279 Speaker 1: weekly and that all is on penn dot org. Our 680 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 1: next series is going to focus on black and Latino 681 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,359 Speaker 1: mistrust around the vaccination process and try to help walk 682 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,840 Speaker 1: people through why hesitancy is okay, why it's okay to question, 683 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: you know, is the vaccine good? Should I get it? Um? 684 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 1: And so we'll be doing a series around like disinformation 685 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,719 Speaker 1: and COVID later this month, and then we're also going 686 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,840 Speaker 1: to be doing work on how community organizers can embed 687 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 1: messaging in their work with communities. We really want to 688 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: empower people to feel like they know how to talk 689 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: about these issues when someone comes to them, so more 690 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 1: to come. Pen dot org. You can check it all out. 691 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 1: If you've enjoyed this podcast, please help us grow by subscribing. 692 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or 693 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,359 Speaker 1: just want to say hi, We'd love to hear from 694 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: you at Hello at tangoi dot com. Disinformed is brought 695 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 1: to you by There Are No Girls on the Internet. 696 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,800 Speaker 1: It's a production of I Heart Radio and Unbust Creative 697 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,279 Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Tory Harrison is our 698 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: supervising producer and engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. 699 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: I'm your host Bridget Todd. For more great podcasts, check 700 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,839 Speaker 1: out the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever 701 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:12,840 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.