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Speaker 1: I coming up on you.

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Speaker 2: If you go to college as a girl, you're going

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Speaker 2: to be sexually assaulted. It's almost like a guarantee because

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Speaker 2: you won't be protected, and you'll learn how to be

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Speaker 2: a career woman, which is ungodly, and then I'll just

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Speaker 2: be a waste of money. And so it was all

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Speaker 2: these negative things, not about you know, expanding your education

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Speaker 2: or learning how to be yourself, because individuality didn't matter

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Speaker 2: as much as conforming to this belief system. And I

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Speaker 2: think the fear really fed into that. At least for me,

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Speaker 2: I was afraid. I started to realize that not being

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Speaker 2: an expert isn't a liability, it's a real gift. If

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Speaker 2: we don't know something about ourselves at this point in

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Speaker 2: our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know. If

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Speaker 2: you can die before you die, then you can really live.

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Speaker 2: There's a wisdom at death's door. I thought I was insane.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I didn't know what to do because there

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Speaker 3: was no internet.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. Oh man, I'm like, I feel like

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Speaker 2: everything is hard.

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Speaker 3: Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a human first

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Speaker 3: and a licensed therapist second. And right now I'm inviting

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Speaker 3: you into conversations that I hope encourage you to become

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Speaker 3: more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the

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Speaker 3: world around you. Welcome to You Need Therapy. Hi guys,

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Speaker 3: and welcome to a new episode of You Need Therapy podcast.

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Speaker 3: I am here with somebody that I am just meeting

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Speaker 3: and I'm excited to talk to Kate West.

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Speaker 1: Welcome.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me on the show today.

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Speaker 3: She came out of a book called Riff, which is

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Speaker 3: a memoir that you wrote of your own life. So

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Speaker 3: I thought to start off before we get into all

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Speaker 3: of the if you if you see, I have all

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Speaker 3: my notes of all that I've written. It's literally I've

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Speaker 3: highlighted the whole book, but I had to break it

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Speaker 3: down into the things that I think I could get

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Speaker 3: into one hour talk to you about.

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Speaker 1: But I want to start off with for the people.

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Speaker 3: That don't know who you are that are listening to this,

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Speaker 3: can you give us a background on your story as

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Speaker 3: little or as much a depth as you want to

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Speaker 3: go into, and kind of what led you to writing

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Speaker 3: this book that I have highlighted all.

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Speaker 2: Of Sure, Yeah, and thank you so much for reading

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Speaker 2: the book. That really does mean a lot to me,

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Speaker 2: of course. So I grew up in a conservative Christian home.

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Speaker 2: I was born in Delaware, and then I was homeschooled

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Speaker 2: starting from the age of five. And my book is about,

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Speaker 2: as I look back now, how my family became more

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Speaker 2: and more radicalized in something called the Christian patriarchy movement,

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Speaker 2: which teaches that men are the leaders of all parts

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Speaker 2: of society, that women are the helpers, and that children

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Speaker 2: have to obey their fathers no matter what. So as

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Speaker 2: I got older, the rules became stricter and stricter, including

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Speaker 2: no dating. Me and my sister couldn't have jobs or

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Speaker 2: go to college, and we both became stay at home daughters,

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Speaker 2: which is a term that means that once you turn eighteen,

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Speaker 2: you don't leave home. You stay with your parents until

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Speaker 2: your father helps you find a husband, and then you

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Speaker 2: go through a courtship process. And so I see my

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Speaker 2: life now as getting smaller and smaller the older I got,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't understand all the things that were harming me.

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Speaker 2: Even though I struggled with mental health from a young age.

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Speaker 2: I struggled to believe the right way and be as

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Speaker 2: submissive as I was supposed to be, and it took

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Speaker 2: me a long time to figure out what was wrong

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Speaker 2: and the abuse that was happening. And that's what my

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Speaker 2: story is about, is figuring out the language of that,

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Speaker 2: what that meant at the time, and how that led

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Speaker 2: me to leave. And I didn't leave my family until

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Speaker 2: I was twenty five, and so to me, that's like

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Speaker 2: that seven years I could have been figuring out how

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Speaker 2: to be an adult and going to school, but I

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Speaker 2: had none of that, And so it was me jumping

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Speaker 2: out of this whole system into the outside world and

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Speaker 2: figuring out how to be an adult and what it

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Speaker 2: means to be a woman like that who's not going

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Speaker 2: to be submissive anymore. And so that's what the story

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Speaker 2: is about, which is you know the title rift, It

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Speaker 2: talks about a couple of things that separation from me

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Speaker 2: and my family, that moment I left, the later final

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Speaker 2: separation I had with my dad, and also, like this rift,

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Speaker 2: I found inside of myself of who am I? What

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Speaker 2: am I without this framework these beliefs, What does that mean?

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Speaker 2: What does that say about me? And so trying to

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Speaker 2: figure out who I am? Piecing together from what felt

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Speaker 2: like fragments I left I was twenty five, I went

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Speaker 2: to college and studied writing, and that's when I realized

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Speaker 2: I had to write my own story. I wanted to

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Speaker 2: write fiction only and only make up stories. And then

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Speaker 2: I couldn't stop writing about the things that had happened

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Speaker 2: to me. And the more I wrote about it, the

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Speaker 2: more I realized there were others like me who had

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Speaker 2: left this particular movement, and I felt the need to

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Speaker 2: share my story and put it out there in the world.

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Speaker 2: And I'm really glad I did that. But it's quite

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Speaker 2: the story.

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Speaker 3: And you saying that writing this story, I can only imagine,

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Speaker 3: but has to be scared freeing, I would imagine, but

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Speaker 3: also terrifying because you're putting out things that at one

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Speaker 3: point you almost believed in order to keep you safe.

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Speaker 3: Because one of my main thoughts as I was reading

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Speaker 3: this was, Okay, I am imagining you gain this knowledge,

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Speaker 3: learn the difference between love and manipulation, and then after

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Speaker 3: you leave, there's more leaving to do. Like it's interesting

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Speaker 3: to you didn't just leave your family and you never

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Speaker 3: talked to them again. I don't want to get too

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Speaker 3: far ahead of myself, but hearing the story of like

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Speaker 3: your wedding, I was like your dad was there like,

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Speaker 3: it was just so interesting to me, and so the

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Speaker 3: way you wrote it, I think is so helpful to

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Speaker 3: give a picture of it's not just like we all

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Speaker 3: just like cut off and we leave and we never

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Speaker 3: talk to these people again. They're still ties to these relationships,

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Speaker 3: and so writing this story to me is so brave,

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Speaker 3: because I would imagine there to be this wrestling between

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Speaker 3: wanting to maintain a semblance of some of these relationships

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Speaker 3: that are your real relationships, and also not being able

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Speaker 3: to ignore the truth.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's why it took me so

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Speaker 2: long to write the book. When I started, I still

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Speaker 2: was talking to my dad, so I wasn't sure how

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Speaker 2: I was going to deal with that. You know, I

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Speaker 2: talked to a reporter in twenty nineteen about purity culture,

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Speaker 2: and that was the first time I had ever done

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Speaker 2: something like that. And then I started talking online about

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Speaker 2: my story, and I was trying to focus on myself,

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Speaker 2: not my dad, but you know, it's hard to separate

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Speaker 2: that completely, and so I found out my father had

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Speaker 2: been following me online, and that's what triggered kind of

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Speaker 2: like the final rift between us, and it was no

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Speaker 2: longer possible to have a semblance of a relationship and

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Speaker 2: he made that very clear, which I talked about in

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Speaker 2: the book as well. So I ended up just writing

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Speaker 2: about what that was like.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, and I loved that letter that you were

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Speaker 3: I think you said you did you write that with

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Speaker 3: your therapist?

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Speaker 2: I did?

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Speaker 3: I mean that was powerful And what I really really

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Speaker 3: highlighted in my brain a lot was you talking about

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Speaker 3: I'm going to write about my story and that my

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Speaker 3: version of what happened to me, and you're part of it.

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Speaker 3: I can't tell your side of the story, but this

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Speaker 3: is my story.

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Speaker 1: And I just was like, yes.

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Speaker 3: So I was like cheering you on as you were.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I know this was not it was twenty

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Speaker 3: nineteen or something right to the nineteen right, so it

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Speaker 3: wasn't as I was reading it, but I was like, oh,

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Speaker 3: I'm so proud of her for writing that. Also again,

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Speaker 3: the courage, the bravery, and I think what it might

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Speaker 3: feel like for a lot of people who are resonating

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Speaker 3: with any of your stories that they feel like they're

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Speaker 3: alone in it. Before I go into all my thoughts,

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Speaker 3: can you describe the difference that you know between the

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Speaker 3: type of Christianity you grew up in and what other

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Speaker 3: types of Christianity might exist out there, because I don't

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Speaker 3: want to paint in all bad picture for those who

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Speaker 3: have had good relationships within their faith communities. But what

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Speaker 3: you've described the book is not what I think a

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Speaker 3: lot of people are experiencing out there, but also is

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Speaker 3: what a lot of people are experiencing. So can you

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Speaker 3: describe the difference.

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Speaker 2: I try to be clear about that, because no matter

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Speaker 2: how much I try to talk about this, someone's usually

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Speaker 2: going to say, oh, this book is just about you know,

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Speaker 2: hating the church, or she hates Christians, and that's not

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Speaker 2: the case if you are really reading the story.

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Speaker 1: I didn't get that, OKAYO.

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Speaker 2: There are people who think that I'm being malicious in this,

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Speaker 2: and I really have given most of my life to

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Speaker 2: the church, and so I have a lot of feelings

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Speaker 2: about that. It's really complicated. What I'm talking about in

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Speaker 2: my story is specifically this movement of Christian patriarchy that

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Speaker 2: goes through different denominations in different churches, and that's why

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Speaker 2: it's so insidious. It's not just one denomination, it's not

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Speaker 2: just one church, it's not just one leader. I try

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Speaker 2: to do my best to put some framework around that

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Speaker 2: and help people understand what this looks like. Because even

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Speaker 2: after I left my family, which was pretty strict, right,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of people say my family was very extreme,

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Speaker 2: I went to what I considered a more mainstream church,

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Speaker 2: and then a few years later a new pastor started

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Speaker 2: bringing in the same teachings that I had grown up with,

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Speaker 2: and it was more of a gradual introduction, right, And

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Speaker 2: so I could see the trajectory of how people get

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Speaker 2: pooled along to extremism, especially when it comes to patriarchy.

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Speaker 2: And so I'm specifically talking about that kind of ideology

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Speaker 2: where women are subservient. And the issue is a lot

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Speaker 2: of churches might not use the word patriarchy, but they

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Speaker 2: might use the word complementarianism, where it's similar to patriarchy.

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Speaker 2: One way to call it is like soft patriarchy. And

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Speaker 2: so you can have a church that could be a

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Speaker 2: healthy community for you, you find peace there, but you

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Speaker 2: can still have elements of patriarchy in that community. I mean,

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Speaker 2: our whole society is based on patriarchy. So I just

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Speaker 2: want to be clear that we can take out the

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Speaker 2: things that are harmful and maybe create a different kind

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Speaker 2: of community. And so even though the church isn't for

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Speaker 2: me anymore. I want to support people who are surviving

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Speaker 2: abuse in the church to find the community that works

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Speaker 2: for them, whether that's a church or not. So I

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Speaker 2: don't feel bitter about this. I really want people to

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Speaker 2: find the faith that works for them. Then that's healthy,

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Speaker 2: and so I don't think that's possible unless we call

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Speaker 2: out the problems.

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Speaker 3: I can even sense that in the way you're talking

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Speaker 3: is like, I don't have bitterness. This is more about

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Speaker 3: allowing people to see the insidious ways. That's where reading

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Speaker 3: your story, it wasn't like your dad was like, all right,

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Speaker 3: we're gonna do all this stuff all at once. It

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Speaker 3: was like you got more into it and more into

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Speaker 3: it and more into it.

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Speaker 1: You dipped a toe in.

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Speaker 3: And then two toes, and then your foot was in,

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Speaker 3: and then then it was the undoing of it all.

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Speaker 3: But I think that is probably what a lot of

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Speaker 3: abuse across any kind of abusive situation, whether it's religious

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Speaker 3: or in a relationship or any kind of community, it's

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Speaker 3: usually what happens. There was a quote from I think

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Speaker 3: I read it in the book Cultish, but it was

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Speaker 3: somebody was talking about like nobody joins a cult to

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Speaker 3: like join a cult, they join a movement for a

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Speaker 3: life that's better for them. They want something better for themselves,

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Speaker 3: and they just join the wrong movement. And that sounds

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Speaker 3: like some of what happened with your family, and probably

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Speaker 3: what happens in a lot of families.

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Speaker 1: But I want to read something you.

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Speaker 3: Said because I'm going to call it out as maybe

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Speaker 3: not a normal I think it's normal, but in a

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Speaker 3: common thought that people have within religious spaces, and it's

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Speaker 3: where you're talking about, like what if God doesn't exist?

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Speaker 3: And I want to talk about this because it bleeds

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Speaker 3: into what I saw in your story. I want to

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Speaker 3: hear your perspective on this of how having some normal

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Speaker 3: thoughts that weren't welcomed into where the space you were

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Speaker 3: in almost manifested into a lot of ment. Well, I

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Speaker 3: think they did manifest into a lot of mental health issues.

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Speaker 3: And so you said, what if God doesn't exist? I've

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Speaker 3: been taught that there was only one unforgivable sin, a

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Speaker 3: sin so great it grieved the Holy Spirit. And I

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Speaker 3: wondered if this was it, if my sinful thought was

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Speaker 3: so terrible to cast me into hell. But then I

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Speaker 3: had a worse thought, if I'm wicked enough to doubt God.

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Speaker 3: Then maybe God doesn't love me, maybe I'm not a

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Speaker 3: chosen one. It's like hard for me to even read

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Speaker 3: that because I'm just I'm reading it as you as

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Speaker 3: a kid, and I feel like those are that's a

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Speaker 3: normal thought.

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Speaker 1: That pops into people's heads.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and for it to have such severe impact on you,

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Speaker 3: I can't imagine. And I want to give you space

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Speaker 3: to talk to us about how some of those thoughts,

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Speaker 3: how they manifest it into anxiety depression OCD, as you

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Speaker 3: talk about in the book.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and the passage you read was this thought process

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Speaker 2: that I was going through when I was on to

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Speaker 2: make sure I get the age righte. I feel like

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Speaker 2: I was around twelve, because it was after nine to eleven.

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Speaker 2: That was a really impactful moment in my life. And

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Speaker 2: I was being taught so much fear and how God

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Speaker 2: was going to punish America and like all this, you

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Speaker 2: know what people call fire and brimstone from the pulpit.

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Speaker 2: And at the same time, you know, my family is

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Speaker 2: very Calvinist, So there's this idea that you're either chosen

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Speaker 2: or not chosen, and either God loves you or he doesn't.

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Speaker 2: And so I was just terrified of not belonging, and

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Speaker 2: I didn't feel like a very good Christian, and so

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Speaker 2: I didn't have anyone to talk to about those outs

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Speaker 2: because I knew if I was doubting God, that meant

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Speaker 2: that I was on you know, the quote unquote wrong path,

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Speaker 2: or that would be a sign that I'm heading into

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Speaker 2: a rebellious teenagehood like my older siblings. And I had

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Speaker 2: watched this happen to other kids, so I wanted to

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Speaker 2: be you know, loved and accepted, and I didn't have

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Speaker 2: the language to express that fear, and so I internalize it.

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Speaker 2: I'm very much an internalizer. I'm discovering that word now

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Speaker 2: of internalizing. And so I just you know, stood over

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Speaker 2: that obsession of whether I was saved or not, and

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Speaker 2: it turned into what I now understand is like religious

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Speaker 2: OCD or scrupulosity, where I would just pray constantly. I

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Speaker 2: really struggled with like taking communion at church and feeling

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Speaker 2: like am I right with God if I take this?

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Speaker 2: Because I was also taught that if you take communion wrongly,

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Speaker 2: that you'll be punished, like with the stickness, and so

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Speaker 2: I was paranoid about that and it was really very

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Speaker 2: much obsessive, compulsive, disorder, but with like this religious take

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Speaker 2: on it, and I didn't have language for that because

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Speaker 2: mental health was not a priority. Everything was spiritualized. So

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Speaker 2: the only way forward I was taught was to pray

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Speaker 2: more and to ask God to save me from myself,

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Speaker 2: and that just fed into the whole cycle.

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Speaker 1: How do you take communion?

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Speaker 3: Right? Like, how do you do it wrong? And right

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Speaker 3: as you said that, I'm like, how do you do

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Speaker 3: it wrong? Like?

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Speaker 1: What were you taught the wrong way to do it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Like if you hadn't asked God's forgiveness for all your sins,

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Speaker 2: or if you had any like outstanding conflict with somebody

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Speaker 2: and you hadn't resolved it, your heart wasn't right to

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Speaker 2: take community. That's what I was taught it.

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Speaker 3: Almost it feels like if there is a doubt behind

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Speaker 3: the doubt that you shut down then yeah, which is

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Speaker 3: a cycle of obsession, right? Yeah? That it feels like

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Speaker 3: And there was a quote somewhere in here that you

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Speaker 3: said you would wash your hands what ten times and

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Speaker 3: they never felt clean? Like that's the image that that's

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Speaker 3: giving me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was trying to explain like there was these

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Speaker 2: external parts of it, but a lot of it is

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Speaker 2: like internal and people don't see the mental health part

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Speaker 2: of it.

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Speaker 3: And if you were to go to somebody, whether it

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Speaker 3: was your mom or your dad or somebody in the church,

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Speaker 3: and talk about some of those fears or those thoughts,

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Speaker 3: what would happen.

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Speaker 2: So, I mean, I did actually talk to my dad

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Speaker 2: about this because it was around the time when I

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Speaker 2: was supposed to join the church as of, you know,

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Speaker 2: an adult member, even though I was like twelve.

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Speaker 3: And just confusing. That part was so confusing.

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Speaker 2: I know, it's like it's it's every church's different standards

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Speaker 2: and different culture, right, so like this is just my

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Speaker 2: church culture, and I think a lot of Reformed churches

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Speaker 2: are like this. But I told my dad, like, I'm

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Speaker 2: having these doubts, and I had to go to the

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Speaker 2: elder meeting and basically was trying to be as honest

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Speaker 2: as I could, but terrified. And they're like, you're not

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Speaker 2: ready to join the church because you don't have this

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Speaker 2: locked down. And they gave me like a book I

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Speaker 2: appeared in preacher to read and they quoted a hymn

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Speaker 2: for me, and so I had to pray and read

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Speaker 2: my Bible. Nothing about you know, how to be a

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Speaker 2: healthy teenager like it was all just do more of

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Speaker 2: the things you're already doing. And I had already been

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Speaker 2: doing that. I wasn't working to give me that kind

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Speaker 2: of sense of security. So yeah, I did try that,

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Speaker 2: but it was just more of the same. It wasn't like,

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Speaker 2: you're loved, keep praying more, keep reading your Bible. And

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Speaker 2: I was told it was a good sign that I

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Speaker 2: was worried about it because at least I cared right.

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Speaker 1: Which is a weird spin on it.

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Speaker 3: And then talking about that part where you did join

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Speaker 3: the church, it was interesting how you said, like, once

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Speaker 3: I did become a member of the church, nothing really changed,

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Speaker 3: except now you could be excommunicated, so you can be

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Speaker 3: punished more.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so if I sinned and wasn't repentant,

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Speaker 2: then I could be cut off from the.

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Speaker 3: Church, versus if you weren't a member of the church,

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Speaker 3: then I guess you.

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Speaker 2: Write you could just leave and nobody would come after you.

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Speaker 3: I want to fast forward to the part about because

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Speaker 3: I think this was a probably might be more jarring

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Speaker 3: or just different than a lot of people are used

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Speaker 3: to hearing, because the idea of a stay at home

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Speaker 3: daughter is really to me interesting. You hear the stay

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Speaker 3: at home Why if you hear the stay at home mom,

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Speaker 3: but you don't as much hear the stay at home daughter.

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Speaker 3: And what is even more fascinating to me is this

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Speaker 3: is like in modern times.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you talked about some like.

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Speaker 3: The books that you would read and they felt like

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Speaker 3: they were like your life, but they that wasn't modern times.

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Speaker 3: And so you're talking about this in modern times. And

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Speaker 3: so I know you touched about it on it a

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Speaker 3: little bit when we started, but talk to me a

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Speaker 3: little bit more about what it was like to follow

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Speaker 3: in that path, especially because you were living in a

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Speaker 3: modern world. I mean, you're homeschooled, so there's some sheltering.

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Speaker 3: But did you have an idea that your life was

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Speaker 3: really different than a lot of people's. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I knew my life was different in the sense that

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Speaker 2: I was told we were doing things the right way

378
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Speaker 2: and this was the godly path, and so there was

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Speaker 2: this idea of being special and belonging to like this

380
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Speaker 2: inner group of people who really knew what God wanted.

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Speaker 2: But again, I was sheltered because you lived in the

382
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Speaker 2: mountains in Colorado when I was a teenager, I was homeschooled.

383
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Speaker 2: I saw people once a week at church, and my

384
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Speaker 2: piano teacher once a week. That was the majority of

385
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Speaker 2: my social interaction, you know, besides like going to the

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Speaker 2: grocery store. And I did have extended family that did

387
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Speaker 2: not belay the same things, and so like, for instance,

388
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Speaker 2: my mom's family Southern Baptist, they're not into the Christian

389
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Speaker 2: patriarchy movement, even though I would argue there's still patriarchy,

390
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Speaker 2: you know, in their churches, but they wouldn't have kept

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Speaker 2: daughters home like my family did. And so I could

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Speaker 2: see my cousin who's my same age, go out in

393
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Speaker 2: her life, but she was presented as that's a rebellious girl,

394
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Speaker 2: and you know, she's not living the right life or whatever.

395
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Speaker 2: Like it was all this judgment about other people, and

396
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,960
Speaker 2: everything was filtered through my dad and how he wanted

397
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Speaker 2: to present it to us. And so even though I

398
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,639
Speaker 2: did have some understand that I was different, it was

399
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,160
Speaker 2: always manipulated in a way to keep me from trying

400
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Speaker 2: to explore other ways of living. Like for instance, going

401
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:40,040
Speaker 2: to college, we were told because you're like state home daughters.

402
00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:41,879
Speaker 2: It's kind of a term we just made up. Like

403
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,640
Speaker 2: in this community, it's not like people are still state

404
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,480
Speaker 2: home daughters. If you look at the oldest dugger unless

405
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,600
Speaker 2: she just got married, I think, but she, you know,

406
00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:51,920
Speaker 2: their state home daughters until they get married, So it's

407
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,600
Speaker 2: still happening. It's just they don't use that term anymore.

408
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 2: But yeah, like going to college, I was told if

409
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Speaker 2: you go to college as a girl, you're going to

410
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:05,399
Speaker 2: be sexually assaulted. It's almost like a guarantee because you

411
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 2: won't be protected, and you'll learn how to be a

412
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,359
Speaker 2: career woman, which is ungodly, and then I'll just be

413
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Speaker 2: a waste of money. And so it was all these

414
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:19,199
Speaker 2: negative things, not about you know, expanding your education or

415
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 2: learning how to be yourself, because individuality didn't matter as

416
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:28,320
Speaker 2: much as conforming to this belief system. And I think

417
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:30,479
Speaker 2: the fear really fed into that, At least for me,

418
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Speaker 2: I was.

419
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Speaker 3: Afraid, Well, what you just said about you're going to

420
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Speaker 3: be sexually assaulted. You talked about you didn't learn anything

421
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:40,480
Speaker 3: about sex and sexuality and any of that other than

422
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Speaker 3: I mean, you shouldn't be left alone with it.

423
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Speaker 2: Don't do it.

424
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Speaker 1: Yeah, like, don't do it.

425
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Speaker 3: But also like men, I can't be left alone with them,

426
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,000
Speaker 3: somebody will hurt me kind of thing. Yeah, and the

427
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 3: minimization of the information you were allowed to consume. I

428
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 3: think is probably one of the most dangerous parts of

429
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Speaker 3: this because you had nothing to base it off of

430
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Speaker 3: others than these scary ideas people.

431
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Speaker 1: Were putting in your head.

432
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Speaker 3: I want to read another part when you mentioned graduation,

433
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Speaker 3: because this was really impactful. When I read this, you said,

434
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,800
Speaker 3: my graduation didn't mean transition into adulthood or the next

435
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,680
Speaker 3: chapter of my life, or the stepping stone to college.

436
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,720
Speaker 3: It meant nothing. It meant less than nothing. It meant

437
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,719
Speaker 3: staying at home but not having homework to complete. It

438
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,720
Speaker 3: meant being a help me to my father as a

439
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,399
Speaker 3: practice for being a wife. One day, I did not

440
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,920
Speaker 3: understand that turning eighteen meant I had a right to leave.

441
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,119
Speaker 3: I had never been taught that I had individual rights

442
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 3: at all. And I think I read that paragraphic four times.

443
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 3: Especially that last sentence is the one that.

444
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 1: I really highlighted.

445
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 3: You had never been taught that you, as a human

446
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 3: being had individual rights. Yeah, individual rights? Was that just

447
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:53,400
Speaker 3: like a foreign term?

448
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 2: Oh? Most definitely.

449
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:55,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

450
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 2: So I mean the whole structure where women are subservient,

451
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 2: you don't have agency and that and you're told you

452
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 2: get married, and you do what your husband wants and

453
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 2: you're always available to him. The idea of consent was

454
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 2: not talked about at all, and so I remember leaving.

455
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 2: I was like in my late twenties, married and trying

456
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 2: to understand what consent was. I mean, I was lucky

457
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 2: because I married someone who's not patriarchal at all. That's

458
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 2: not the case for every girl who leaves this movement,

459
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,639
Speaker 2: because I just had no idea. I mean, I think

460
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 2: there was obviously part of me that knew that it

461
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 2: was wrong, right. I think all of us have this

462
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 2: inner knowing that we deserve to own ourselves and our bodies,

463
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,359
Speaker 2: and so I think that's a natural thing. I didn't

464
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 2: have language for that, and I didn't understand how that

465
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 2: worked in relationships or dynamics of how you relate to

466
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 2: other people. So yeah, I mean, I think it's very

467
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 2: intentional that they don't tell kids that they have options, right,

468
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 2: because then I could just be like, oh, well, I

469
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,160
Speaker 2: choose to go to college, I'm going to choose to leave.

470
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 2: The whole point is that you're submitting to a man,

471
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 2: and so that negates all choice. They don't frame it

472
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 2: that way. Sometimes they like to say, you're choosing to submit,

473
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:16,400
Speaker 2: but really that's.

474
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 3: Just an extra worry the language.

475
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just an extra word because in reality, you aren't.

476
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 2: You don't have the agency over yourself. And so that's

477
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 2: why this is so insidious and upsetting to me. Now,

478
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 2: Like all these girls and young people were taught just

479
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 2: to like give their bodies over to somebody else, and

480
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 2: all these adults were okay with that. And so I

481
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 2: have some anger about that that they taught us not

482
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 2: about content at all, but at the same time to

483
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 2: be afraid of men because you know they might attack us,

484
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 2: but it didn't matter if we were married married to them, right,

485
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 2: that's okay, we're married to them. It's messed up.

486
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,360
Speaker 3: Another quote that is like burned in my brain is

487
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 3: when you were talking about my boy is a risk,

488
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,399
Speaker 3: Like you had to be very mindful of how you

489
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 3: were walking, how you were standing, the clothes that you

490
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,679
Speaker 3: were wearing, not to like tempt men because then it

491
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 3: would cause them to do something sin or then you

492
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,439
Speaker 3: would be assaulted in some way. All of that is

493
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 3: so I mean when you said I have some anger

494
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 3: about that, Like, yeah, I have some anger about that too.

495
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 3: And this crazy idea that you're supposed to be afraid

496
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 3: of men. But then when which I want you to

497
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 3: get into the courtship process because that is bonkers in

498
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 3: my mind. But then all of a sudden, when you

499
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 3: are set to marry this person, you're just supposed to

500
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 3: do whatever and they're safe and they know. But then, like,

501
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 3: how am I supposed to turn that switch off that

502
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 3: says men are scary and I should stay away?

503
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 1: Right? So tell us about the dating.

504
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 3: That whole part where you went through all of the

505
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 3: different like terms and what they meant, Like so helpful.

506
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 3: So can you talk to us about those terms and

507
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 3: what the dating process was like for you? Because I

508
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 3: I think also what I heard from that is that's

509
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,640
Speaker 3: kind of what lit the fire under you to say like, hey,

510
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 3: something's not right here, there's something better for me.

511
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was definitely a catalyst the way I always

512
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 2: treated in the courtship process and as a person, I

513
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 2: started waking up to like my own self because I

514
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 2: was so numbed out. But I wanted to put all

515
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,120
Speaker 2: that information about courtship in there because I realized once

516
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 2: I left that other people don't have they don't spend

517
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 2: a lot of their brain space figuring out how much

518
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 2: distance you have between each other, and you know how

519
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 2: many months you can have before you get married, and

520
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,120
Speaker 2: all these like little details about courtship. Unfortunately, my brain

521
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 2: is full of all these like minute details. So I

522
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 2: wanted to put it in the book, and I found

523
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 2: the courtship guard that we used still available online as

524
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 2: far as I know, and so I'm sure people are

525
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 2: still using it. And the thing in Christian patriarchy is

526
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 2: every father determines what courtship looks like for his family.

527
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 2: So sometimes a family might be more loose than it

528
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 2: looks more like dating than my family. My dad it's

529
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 2: very calling and so he wanted to be part of

530
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 2: every every interaction and every aspect of the relationship. And

531
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 2: so for me, I tell the story about there was

532
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 2: this man at the church. We became friends, me and

533
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 2: my brother and him, and he one day asked my

534
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 2: dad if you could have a courtship with me, because

535
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 2: he grew up in a similar family where courtship was

536
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 2: the way of getting married, and so he already knew

537
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 2: the lingo and the rules. So that's why he went

538
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:29,439
Speaker 2: to my dad first.

539
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 3: And this was before he asked you if you're interested

540
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 3: in that, which that's an interesting part of like he's

541
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 3: going to ask for permission to court you, or is

542
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 3: that what you would say exactly? But yeah, like you

543
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 3: don't have a say in that, or he doesn't like

544
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 3: make sure that you want that first.

545
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 2: No, So he went to my father and asked if

546
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 2: he could court me. My dad said yes. That's where

547
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 2: this illusion of choice comes in, because then I was

548
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 2: allowed to say yes or no to the.

549
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 1: Courtship after your dad already proved it.

550
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 2: Right, And so I said yes. I really liked him.

551
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,679
Speaker 2: He was really fun to be around, and I was

552
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,199
Speaker 2: really interested in maybe getting married to him. And so

553
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 2: it's a shame that the way the courtship goes it

554
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 2: really kills all kinds of romantic interactions with someone. Because

555
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 2: what happens is once a week, me and this guy

556
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 2: and my dad would sit down and go through questions

557
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 2: from this courtship guide and have conversations about mostly like

558
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 2: theology and how you shape your life around the Bible,

559
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 2: things like that, which could be important conversations depending on

560
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 2: what you believe. But it was really weird to have

561
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 2: my dad moderate this, and it very much felt like

562
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 2: there's a right answer to all of these questions, right,

563
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 2: and so it's not like you can be completely authentic

564
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 2: and vulnerable, I think, right, And so you're not really

565
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 2: building a relationship that way. It's mostly like checking off boxes.

566
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 2: But for me, I found myself falling in love with

567
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 2: this person, and I had been told, well, I was taught,

568
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 2: you know, purity culture. I think a lot of people

569
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 2: are familiar with that. But then this further aspect of

570
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 2: it was emotional purity, where you have to keep your

571
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 2: emotions pure before you are committed to get married. And

572
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 2: so my affection for him was viewed as wrong. And

573
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 2: so this is where like the emotional abuse came in

574
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 2: really heavily in my relationship with my dad. He was

575
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 2: always brating me for for having emotions, for feelings, feelings

576
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 2: towards somebody that you're maybe gonna marry.

577
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is so wild that you would get in

578
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 3: trouble for liking a person that's courting you, like you

579
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 3: would think that, isn't that what you want?

580
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 2: No, because you don't want You don't want to marry

581
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 2: someone for love. You want to marry someone follows the rules, okay,

582
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 2: and who's conforming to your you know, your patriarch's idea,

583
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 2: your dad's idea of what godliness looks like, and your

584
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 2: church's idea.

585
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 3: It's not about love. It's about checking those boxes of

586
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 3: those questions that you guys were going through.

587
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 2: And we were told, once that happens, you will fall

588
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 2: in love. It was like a guarantee, Like.

589
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 3: But it's after you're like, just get right a step, like,

590
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 3: you can't have those feelings until after this thing is checked. Right,

591
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 3: So lot that box up and then we'll open it later.

592
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 2: Right, which I found is not how humans work.

593
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 3: That's not actually how God made humans emotions to work.

594
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 2: Right exactly. So that's why it was so confusing to

595
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 2: me because I was like, I don't I mean, this

596
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 2: was something I've been taught for years and years, and

597
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 2: so once I had this relationship, it was like, in

598
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 2: my face, this is not working for me because I

599
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 2: don't know how to control my emotions. Like obviously I

600
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 2: already have like OCD, I'm already like hyper aware of

601
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 2: my emotions and all these things, and I couldn't control

602
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 2: me feeling love for this person, and so that was

603
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 2: really difficult to go through that.

604
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 3: And mind you, you're an adult at this time.

605
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was in this courtship. I was twenty and

606
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 2: twenty one, okay, because I remember I had my twenty

607
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 2: first birthday in that relationship. The end of the story

608
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 2: is my father put an end to the courtship after

609
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 2: you know, quite a few months, and I go into

610
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 2: that a little bit in the book. There are some

611
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 2: reasons he gave that had to do with like money

612
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 2: and basically just what my dad wanted. And mind you, like,

613
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 2: by the time I left, I had like four relationships

614
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 2: my dad had tried to stop, so he's kind of

615
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 2: like the arbitrary reason, So like, I don't feel like

616
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 2: it's really important. What the reasons were is mostly my

617
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 2: dad just trying to keep me from getting married, which

618
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 2: is confusing. Yeah, So once he ended it, then my

619
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 2: dad sat me down and said I needed to repent

620
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 2: for feeling love and feeling attached to this person. And

621
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 2: that's and it really broke for me because that's when

622
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 2: my inner voice was like screaming like that's not okay,

623
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 2: I can't do that. And so that was the first

624
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 2: real big moment where I started holding onto my own

625
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 2: voice a little bit. And it took me a few

626
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 2: years after that to actually leave but I needed to

627
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 2: work through all those mental barriers of like, oh, I

628
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 2: can think for myself, I can love without feeling ashamed

629
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 2: of that and having to process all the you know,

630
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 2: the fallout from that relationship.

631
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 3: When I am in awe of the ability for you

632
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 3: to actually connect to yourself and connect to the reality

633
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,959
Speaker 3: of your emotions and the truth, because you're in an

634
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 3: environment that on purpose secludes you from hearing truth a

635
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 3: lot of times. So again going back to the risk

636
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 3: for you listening to that voice and the risk for

637
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 3: you listening to the emotions that you can't control. In

638
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 3: some people's brains, the way to survive would be to

639
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 3: continue to silence that, even though you would have to

640
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 3: abandon so many parts of you. So I can't imagine

641
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 3: the Again, it was a slow process. It wasn't like

642
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 3: a snap my fingers. I have emotions. I'm going to

643
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 3: leave now. But for you to even entertain that thought

644
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 3: was had to be so courageous, I think is the

645
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 3: easiest word for me to come up with. And I

646
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 3: just feel some a lot of sadness because I feel

647
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 3: like a lot of people don't feel.

648
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: The safety or don't find the safety to be able

649
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: to do that.

650
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't have the language for it. I don't

651
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 2: know if like I would call it courageous. It felt

652
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 2: more of like instinct and this self that I had

653
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 2: repressed for so long being like we can't survive, Like.

654
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 3: You almost had no choice but to let it come up.

655
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it felt like things were really getting too real,

656
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 2: Like at this point, my older siblings were gone, my

657
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 2: younger sibling was away at a you know, a church

658
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 2: thing for a year or so, and so I was

659
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 2: the only kid at home in my twenties, and it

660
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 2: was just like not a good situation to be that

661
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 2: under pressure. And another part of my story was we

662
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 2: had moved to Hawaii, so that was a completely different culture.

663
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,399
Speaker 2: And I think that did help break me out of

664
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 2: this bubble a little bit because I realized growing up

665
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 2: in a very white church community and then moving to

666
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 2: an island in the Pacific, realizing our way of life

667
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 2: was not the only way of life, even though I

668
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 2: could mentally say that, but experiencing a different culture I

669
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 2: think did help me in that process too. So I

670
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 2: don't know it's complicated, but I do think that everybody

671
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 2: can tap into that intuition even when they're in the most,

672
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 2: you know, the scariest times of their life.

673
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 3: What would you say is like the final straw that

674
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,800
Speaker 3: encouraged you to just like do it your way anyway?

675
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 3: Because I struggle when I read people's books, when I

676
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 3: interview them, because I don't want to give away the

677
00:34:58,040 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 3: whole book, because I do want people to read it,

678
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 3: because you do get such a bigger picture of your life.

679
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 3: But what do you think if you didn't have or experience,

680
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 3: would have kept you?

681
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 2: Ooh, that's such a good question.

682
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: There might not be one thing, but if there.

683
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 2: Was, Yeah, it's tifically. There are several things that come

684
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 2: to mind, one of which is like several people asking

685
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 2: me if I was okay, like somehow knowing that I

686
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 2: needed somebody to check on me.

687
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: This was interesting.

688
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 3: You end up I want to say, dating. What you

689
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 3: call this dating? Because it wasn't courting, right, secret dating?

690
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 1: Yeah? Okay, so you ended up secret dating.

691
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 3: This was the pastor's son, yeah, of the church that

692
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 3: your family went to, but they didn't do the.

693
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: Whole courtship process. Correct.

694
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 3: So even in I think this is what you're talking

695
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 3: about the beginning of It's not just like these separate denominations.

696
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,720
Speaker 3: This can be a group of people in a church

697
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 3: that don't all align with everything. So I'm interested in

698
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 3: because this was like, oh, it almost feels like your

699
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 3: dad's doing this like back and forth thing to like

700
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,240
Speaker 3: keep you there, or he's like giving you an inch

701
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 3: and then like pulling you back a mile kind of

702
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 3: thing where it's like you even talk about this of like, oh,

703
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 3: he's letting me do this, but it's just so like

704
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 3: I don't leave for this moment, but then he's going

705
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 3: to yank it back from me. So I'm interested in

706
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 3: the pastor, how did they see the way your family

707
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 3: was working. Did they know the reality of what was

708
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 3: going on inside the home or if it was like

709
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 3: a dance that people didn't want to step on anybody's toes.

710
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 2: Oh that's such a good question and something I still

711
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 2: grapple with a little bit. The church we were in

712
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 2: at that moment was a church plant. It's a Dutch

713
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 2: Reformed community in Hawaii, which is already interesting. And the

714
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 2: pastor's family they only had sons, and so we've speculated

715
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 2: now like if they had had daughters, I wonder what

716
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 2: they're really like if they wouldn't be into dating, right,

717
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 2: because in this whole world. Men are supposed to be

718
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 2: pretty independent, so a father doesn't really control his son's courtships.

719
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 2: So I don't really know what happened. If they had

720
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 2: had daughters, if they would have gotten into the whole

721
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:19,399
Speaker 2: courtship thing. They did believe in what they would call complementarianism,

722
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 2: and so I think they would say my dad was

723
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 2: extreme and they didn't agree. But also my dad was

724
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 2: the only other elder in our church, so it was

725
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 2: a pastor and my dad, and they were good friends,

726
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 2: and they couldn't have a church plant without an elder.

727
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 2: It gets really tricky, you know, to navigate. And so

728
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 2: I do think he was trying to do the best

729
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 2: he could from what he understood. And I think what

730
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 2: happens and a lot of families when abuse is like

731
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 2: the invisible kind emotional abuse and psychological abuse, a family's

732
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 2: really good at hiding that from other people. And so

733
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 2: I don't think they ever really saw the full depth

734
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 2: of what was going on in my home. And they

735
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 2: respected my dad as the patriarch of his family, and

736
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 2: so you know, when their son asked my dad for

737
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 2: a courtship like his dad, the pastor encouraged him to

738
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 2: go to my dad first and to go through my

739
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 2: dad's process, whatever that might be, because they respected him as

740
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 2: a leader in our family, and so it is confusing,

741
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 2: you know, like they were different from my family but

742
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 2: also similar in some ways, especially when it comes to

743
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 2: men leading. And the short version is we had a

744
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 2: court for one week and my dad changed his mind

745
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 2: and so we just kind of like secretly had a relationship,

746
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 2: which because at that point I was like really over

747
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 2: over all of it and I was in my rebell

748
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 2: you know, my rebellious years at the age of twenty three.

749
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 3: But also speaking to like your rebellious years were like

750
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 3: you him right, It's just a good picture of like

751
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,280
Speaker 3: that was actually risky for you to Like I remember

752
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 3: reading this and being like, oh, what if somebody sees

753
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 3: you or like when you're I think there was a

754
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 3: moment where like your dad saw you hug him or

755
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 3: maybe kiss him in the car or something, Okay, And

756
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 3: it's like that is what is getting you in trouble.

757
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 3: And when I say trouble, it's not like you're grounded,

758
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 3: it's like you're going to go to hell kind of trouble. Yeah,

759
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 3: and you have to repent.

760
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 2: Yell, dat yeah, and yelled at in the home. And

761
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 2: there's this one scene in the book which was probably

762
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 2: the hardest for me to write, where my dad was

763
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 2: so angry and that my instinct, like my fight or

764
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 2: flight like kicked in, and like the flight part of that,

765
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 2: and I just ran out the door and I was

766
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 2: running down the street, and my dad ran after me

767
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 2: and brought me home. And I think it's important to

768
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 2: talk about that because like there is this like instinct

769
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 2: that I want to talk about with surviving something like

770
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 2: this that kicks in, and sometimes it takes really extreme

771
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 2: circumstances for that to happen. So that's what happened to me,

772
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 2: was him really chasing me and me having to go

773
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 2: through that kind of thing all the time, which was home.

774
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 3: That shows that picture shows that difficult dance of your

775
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 3: instinct of you running out the door, get out of here.

776
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 3: But then also the other part of you that when

777
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 3: your dad comes after you, where you walk back to

778
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 3: the house with him, it's like, well, which way is right?

779
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,720
Speaker 3: And so one of the things that I was thinking

780
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 3: as I was reading this book, because I was like

781
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 3: I'd done enough of research before I started reading the

782
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 3: book to kind of understand where you were today, and

783
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 3: so I guess I'm curious today, how would you say

784
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 3: you reconciled the like freed part of you and then

785
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 3: also the part of you that wanted to follow the

786
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 3: rules that you've been taught in, that like old version

787
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 3: of you that as a kid scared you and kept

788
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:57,240
Speaker 3: you being like a good girl.

789
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 1: How did you reconcile that or did you?

790
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 3: Oh? Have I recognized that that's aye maybe.

791
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 2: Something I should bring up with my therapist. I guess,

792
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 2: you know, leaving I wanted to just drop everything and

793
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 2: live my life and forget everything that had happened. And

794
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 2: I still went to church and I still had that

795
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 2: part of my life, but I didn't want anything to

796
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:24,320
Speaker 2: do with patriarchy or like that whole world, the homeschooling

797
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 2: world that I had grown up in. And I learned

798
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 2: really quickly that it's hard to live off of a

799
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 2: clean slate when you don't have one, Like I wanted

800
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 2: to live like it had never happened. But trauma was like,

801
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 2: you know, in your in your body, and I really

802
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 2: struggled with PTSD, not even knowing what that was, and

803
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:45,959
Speaker 2: so I had to do a lot of that work

804
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 2: to go back and reconcile with my younger selves and

805
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 2: figure out what was happening, What did I need in

806
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 2: those moments? Why am I so traumatized? And I think

807
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 2: in that process, I learned why I felt like I

808
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 2: had to be such a good girl and be so

809
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 2: obedient because it was like a safety thing. It was

810
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 2: like a you know, I had older siblings. I knew

811
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 2: what happens when you rebel, and I didn't want to

812
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 2: be like that. So that's why I was considered the

813
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 2: good kid until now, apparently, And so just leaving kind

814
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 2: of broke that narrative. I was a good girl, and

815
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 2: I felt like I had broken my family apart, and

816
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 2: that was difficult to feel like I was to blame

817
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 2: for all of that. And it just took me a

818
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 2: lot of therapy and like somatic work and things like

819
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 2: that to feel at home in my body and stafer

820
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 2: within myself so that I don't need to depend on

821
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 2: my father or somebody else to give me that validation

822
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 2: that I'm a good person. And so I think what's

823
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:52,720
Speaker 2: interesting is the OCD stuff hasn't gone away. It's gotten

824
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 2: better with therapy and with medication and things like that.

825
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 2: But now it's kind of transferred into like this ethical

826
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 2: stant questioning about ethics and how do I live in

827
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 2: an ethical life? And that's something I'm still trying to

828
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 2: dig into and figure out. Why what is this about

829
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 2: me that's so questioning everything all the time that I

830
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 2: think it can be interesting to follow that and to

831
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 2: learn more about myself in that process. So I don't know.

832
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 2: I think I'm trying to let go of that narrative

833
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 2: a little bit that I have to be perfect, that

834
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 2: I have to save everybody and to just show up

835
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 2: as myself, whatever that is. And I think that's still

836
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 2: an ongoing situation for me.

837
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, what would you say to somebody who's in the

838
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 3: position that you were before you left? What would have

839
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 3: been helpful to hear that you didn't hear? What would

840
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 3: you say to somebody who's in that space now?

841
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 2: I think for me, I was being told that the

842
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 2: abuse was love. I was told that, and then I

843
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 2: was told that God wanted me to be there, and

844
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 2: God want me to no matter what. And so I

845
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,439
Speaker 2: would tell her and anyone like in that situation that

846
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 2: God doesn't want you to be abused or harmed or stuck,

847
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 2: and your intuition is part of who you are. Your

848
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 2: emotions are part of who you are, and they tell

849
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 2: you the truth, and it's okay to follow that and

850
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 2: to lean on yourself and discern for yourself what you

851
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 2: think is right. That's something that nobody taught me how

852
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 2: to do, and so I think I would want people

853
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 2: to know that that's okay to do that. You're not

854
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 2: going to, like instantly be struck by lightning if you

855
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:37,720
Speaker 2: give your intuition a chance.

856
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:38,919
Speaker 1: A lot of what.

857
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 3: I talk about with clients in my work is looking

858
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,800
Speaker 3: at everything like an experiment. Yeah, and that I really

859
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 3: like that sentence of give it a chance. If it

860
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 3: doesn't work, maybe you'll find yourself back there. You can

861
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 3: leave that door open, right. I know sometimes it might

862
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 3: not feel like that would be allowed to be back open,

863
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 3: but I I love the idea of give it a

864
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 3: chance and see if this works, see if this feels better,

865
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 3: see if this is a life that you want to live,

866
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 3: and then if not, you can change your mind.

867
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 1: But give it a chance.

868
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 2: I love that if you're second a situation with the relationship,

869
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 2: for whatever it looks like for you, like you can

870
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 2: just practice decision making in little ways that don't impact

871
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 2: your whole life, right, you can just practice and just

872
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 2: see what that feels like.

873
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 1: Which you can see you doing that at the in

874
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 1: this book.

875
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 3: If you didn't, like I said, you didn't just snap

876
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 3: your fingers and run out of the house and never

877
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,720
Speaker 3: look back. You did small things like give your secret

878
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 3: boyfriend a hug.

879
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 1: And notice what that felt like. And it felt natural,

880
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 1: and it felt good and it felt safe. And that's what.

881
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 2: Yeah.

882
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,919
Speaker 3: I think even reading the passages where like the things

883
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 3: that calmed you down was like him holding you, It's like,

884
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 3: oh that is I'm emotional, but like, like that is

885
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 3: the a perfect picture of allowing yourself to realize that

886
00:45:56,520 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 3: you're your body in and you know, and give yourself

887
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 3: that shot to listen to that part of you. And

888
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 3: that is a good part and a safe part. So

889
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 3: all that to say, I loved reading this book and

890
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 3: I think it is written on unlike a lot of

891
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 3: stories that I have read, and I like that and

892
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 3: it is a unique story too, So thank you for

893
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 3: writing it.

894
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:20,400
Speaker 1: Thank you, and thank you for.

895
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 3: Taking the time to have this conversation, because I do

896
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,360
Speaker 3: think that people are going to relate to your story,

897
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 3: even if they it's not even in a religious way.

898
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 1: There are so many themes.

899
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 3: In that book that I think can show up in

900
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 3: all different parts of our lives. And I think that

901
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:36,800
Speaker 3: sounds like that's one of the reasons you wrote the book,

902
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 3: because your story needs to be heard so people feel

903
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:39,720
Speaker 3: less alone.

904
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 2: It's what I needed too, you know, I needed that

905
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 2: when I was younger, and I hope that it does

906
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 2: help people.

907
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 3: It helps me, so yeah, oh okay, Well, thank you

908
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 3: so much. And then if people want to find this book,

909
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 3: where do you want them to go to find it?

910
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 2: You can get it anywhere you like to ate your

911
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 2: books though. My website's keithwest dot com. I have some

912
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 2: links there if you want to just find that's easy.

913
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 2: There's a link for my local bookstore here in Grand

914
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 2: Rapids that you can get a signed copy. And then

915
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 2: I did read the audiobook if you like listening, so

916
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 2: you can get that too.

917
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 3: And then where can people find you on Instagram? What's

918
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 3: your handle at?

919
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 2: Cate Westwright? Can I spell my first name? C? A?

920
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 1: T okay? Perfect?

921
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 3: All right, Well, thank you so much for this conversation.

922
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:22,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much.