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Speaker 1: Hi. I am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.

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Speaker 1: We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship and

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Speaker 1: what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling,

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Speaker 1: railval No, no, sibling, rail You don't do that with

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Speaker 1: your mouth, Velry. That's good. Oh, you're in the day.

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Speaker 1: I'm in the day. DEAs is short desert for those

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Speaker 1: of you who don't know that. I'm so happy. I

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Speaker 1: just feel like it's hot today. It's eighty degrees. The

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Speaker 1: super Bowl weekend's gonna be fun. We're both extremely football fans.

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Speaker 1: You know, a lot of people hate Brady. A lot

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Speaker 1: of people hate him. Oh I don't, buddy, who hates

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Speaker 1: Brady is Here's what I think. I love Tom Brady.

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Speaker 1: Him win, I just do. Here's the thing, Okay, here's

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Speaker 1: why I want to see Tom Brady win. Because he

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Speaker 1: is the greatest of all time. He's no joke, hands

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Speaker 1: down the goat. You can't even touch him now if

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Speaker 1: you use this thing. Yeah, it's the biggest greatest fuck

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Speaker 1: you of all time. They should have. He should have

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Speaker 1: played out his career in Boston. He deserved that. There's

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Speaker 1: probably a part of him that wanted to go. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think I think there was a there's got to

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Speaker 1: be an interest in let's see what I can do

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Speaker 1: with another team. No, no, you don't spend your whole

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Speaker 1: career at one place and not this is I mean, look,

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Speaker 1: maybe I'm projecting. Maybe I'm projecting what I would say.

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Speaker 1: It was like, let's let's get out of here, let's

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Speaker 1: go do something else. Come on, Oliver. Yeah, but the Buccaneers,

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Speaker 1: their team was sick. Anyway, Regardless of all of that,

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Speaker 1: I just want to see Tom Brady go to Tampa

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Speaker 1: Bay his first year, he wins the fucking Super Bowl.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just crazy. But can we talk about homes?

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Speaker 1: Isn't he like twenty three? He won a super Bowl

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Speaker 1: last year. I mean, he's been in the league. He's

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Speaker 1: so sick. It's It's what I love about this Super

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Speaker 1: Bowl is you have the oldie the oldie goat and

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Speaker 1: you have the new star facing off. Yeah. No, a

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Speaker 1: good game, it's going I think it's going to be great. Well,

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Speaker 1: let's get into a guest who you're about to listen

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Speaker 1: to right now, who's an amazing human being. By the way,

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Speaker 1: for res Akaria, he hosts for Rezakaria GPS for CNN Worldwide,

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Speaker 1: So I didn't know what to expect when we started

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Speaker 1: the interview. I had a feeling that he would have

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Speaker 1: a great sense of humor and would be cool. I

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Speaker 1: just felt like, maybe that's because after interviewing Sanjay and

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Speaker 1: I kind of feel like all the CNN guys are

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Speaker 1: going to be kind of cool, you know. Like, So

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Speaker 1: we interviewed for Reid and I loved every second of it.

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Speaker 1: I could have talked to him for me too. He

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Speaker 1: was so informative and such a great teacher. I just

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Speaker 1: make a great point though, because I've watched him on

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Speaker 1: CNN on the weekends do his show, and I thought

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Speaker 1: that he would be I was predicting he was going

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Speaker 1: to be a little more straight laced, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean. And he's cool, Like he was sitting in

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Speaker 1: his cool study and he just I wanted to have

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Speaker 1: like a scotch with him, you know, and just bullshit.

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Speaker 1: I want him to be a part of my book club,

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Speaker 1: you know, because you know, he's the kind of person

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Speaker 1: that you say something to, you have an idea, and

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Speaker 1: he never makes you feel ever dumb. So for Reid

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Speaker 1: wrote a book called ten lessons for a post pandemic world.

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Speaker 1: I felt like talking to him it was not only informative,

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Speaker 1: but hopeful and and and I think it's important to

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Speaker 1: educate ourselves on the history of pandemics and understanding the

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Speaker 1: difference between where and what we have experienced in history

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Speaker 1: and the difference of how it will be experienced now,

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Speaker 1: and to come on, you know, the digital world and technology,

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Speaker 1: and we got into all of that. I just thought

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Speaker 1: it was really it was great. The topic itself is great,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's about what we've just been through this

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Speaker 1: and I'll let you guys listen. But one of the

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Speaker 1: question that I actually asked was have we experienced this

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Speaker 1: pandemic long enough to actually affect the way that we

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Speaker 1: move forward? Or are we going to get over it

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Speaker 1: like we get over everything else. Of course, time will

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Speaker 1: always you know, remove and heal. And you know, in

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Speaker 1: twenty years from now, I'm sure we're going to be

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Speaker 1: wherever the hell we are. But you know, just to

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Speaker 1: explore this, this concept is really really cool of what

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Speaker 1: it's going to be like once we go back to

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Speaker 1: normal quote unquote whatever that means, or will we will

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Speaker 1: we will? You will hear the answer because hopefully you're

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Speaker 1: going to listen this what I gotta go. I love

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Speaker 1: you and I've got we can keep this in. I've

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Speaker 1: got a reading assessment with with my daughter. She's in

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Speaker 1: first grade and she is at I think what she's

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Speaker 1: a two year old level. She can't read, so how

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Speaker 1: she's doing all right? The irony of what you're saying

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Speaker 1: right now is that we actually we're so excited did

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Speaker 1: to talk to him and then got right into talking

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Speaker 1: about virtual learning and the challenges that it brings. So

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Speaker 1: hope you enjoyed the combo as much as we do.

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Speaker 1: Online education is an oxymoron. It's like it just doesn't work,

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Speaker 1: Like there's they've got to rethink the model. The kids

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Speaker 1: are not learning that much. They get distracted, they're on

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Speaker 1: their phones, they're looking at their searching on Google. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and they've taken you've taken all the fun out of education,

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Speaker 1: you know, the sort of social interaction, the making fun

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Speaker 1: of the teacher, the flirting. It's like all it is

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Speaker 1: is a you know, it's like one person monologue. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I guess what's the alternative at this? No, you're right,

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Speaker 1: you're right, but it makes me, it makes me understand

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Speaker 1: that the promise of online education has to be really

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Speaker 1: seriously rethought, that you need a hybrid model. You can't

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Speaker 1: just you can't just say all of Africa is to

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Speaker 1: be educated online. No, they won't. No. And also like this,

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Speaker 1: so like you said, the social interaction, you even say

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Speaker 1: it in your books. We are social animals. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we need the connection. We need to have that, like

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Speaker 1: the even just the sense of touching someone or being

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Speaker 1: able to connect in person. That's why I sometimes feel

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Speaker 1: like technology can only go so far. What I mean

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Speaker 1: by that it will go very far, but that the

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Speaker 1: human connection will always be a necessity. You know, when

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Speaker 1: people start thinking, when people start saying, oh, we'll have

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Speaker 1: a chip and we'll never see each other, And I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I don't think that we'll ever I mean, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to jump the gun here because we haven't gotten

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Speaker 1: to your book yet, but I don't think we'll ever

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Speaker 1: be like that. Because even this pandemic, and you say

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Speaker 1: this in the book that it sort of sped up

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Speaker 1: history didn't change it. It's just speeding it up. Right.

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Speaker 1: What I'm feeling is that I can't wait to snuggle

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Speaker 1: my friends, like I can't wait to sit in a

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Speaker 1: bar and like, actually top a crowded bar with a

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Speaker 1: buzzy atmosphere. It's like, yeah, that sounds like the biggest

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Speaker 1: treat in the world. Oh god, I know. Well, there's

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Speaker 1: a few things. Actually, I'm so excited to talk to you.

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Speaker 1: By the way, I watch you every every weekend, so

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Speaker 1: I'm a bit starstruck. But when you talk about speeding

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Speaker 1: up history, first of all, I'd love to know what

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Speaker 1: that means. But the other thing, too, is this pandemic

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Speaker 1: has seemed to slow us down a little bit as

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Speaker 1: far as being together, that cuddling, that being cozy, that

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Speaker 1: being a family, sometimes to the detriment to the family,

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Speaker 1: I guess, because people aren't used to being together like this,

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Speaker 1: and they get to learn more about each other in

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Speaker 1: one year than they have in fifteen. You know. But

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Speaker 1: when you talk about the speeding up of history, what

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Speaker 1: does that exactly mean? What I mean by saying it's

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Speaker 1: speeding up history is that, you know, I use that

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Speaker 1: line of Lenin's there are decades when nothing happens, and

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Speaker 1: then there are weeks when decades happen. You feel as

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Speaker 1: though what's happened is this has put certain trends that

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Speaker 1: we were all living with into overdrive. You know. The

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Speaker 1: biggest one is, of course, we've all in somewhere or

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Speaker 1: the other, been living a digital life, and all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden we are we are consumed by digital life.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know what your lives are like

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Speaker 1: at this point. I'm doing, you know, zoom meetings after

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Speaker 1: zoom meetings after zoom meetings, and that's everything from a

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Speaker 1: doctor's appointment, my regular meetings. What I'm amused by is

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Speaker 1: I'm now finding people with whom I would normally have

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Speaker 1: telephone calls. It's all zoom meetings. I'm thinking, why why

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Speaker 1: am I looking at all these people? I just needed

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Speaker 1: to have a short phone call. I've already nixed that.

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Speaker 1: I've already that month ago. I was like, no, we'll

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Speaker 1: just talk. Yeah, I have a catch up call with somebody,

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Speaker 1: you know, and it's great, and it's like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: I haven't shaved I have, you know anyway. So, but

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Speaker 1: but I think that it is even true for things

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Speaker 1: like online retailing. It's also true for things like geopolitics,

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Speaker 1: where you know, for example, to right the simmering rivalry

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Speaker 1: between the United States and China has just got ramped

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Speaker 1: up because everywhere the stakes have become higher, you know,

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Speaker 1: getting things right has become higher. The issue of whether

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Speaker 1: government should spend money, you know, the so called universal

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Speaker 1: basic income issue, Suddenly it's front and centive because nobody

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Speaker 1: can work. So this whole question of if you have

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Speaker 1: lots of people who are not doing any work, is

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Speaker 1: it the government's responsibility? Is it smart policy for the

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Speaker 1: government to just give them money because at least they

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Speaker 1: can spend and that keeps the economy going. You know,

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Speaker 1: So all these questions suddenly have gotten heightened urgency. It's

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Speaker 1: almost like the tape is moving on fast forward, or

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Speaker 1: they've gotten intensified. But I think I take your point

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Speaker 1: that there are some aspects where, weirdly we have become

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Speaker 1: more socially isolated. Weirdly, whether there's less contact. For example,

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Speaker 1: I feel this a lot because I travel a lot.

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Speaker 1: I feel less contact between myself and a lot of

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Speaker 1: the rest of the world. You know, even though I

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Speaker 1: do do some of the zoom, but that physical connection

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Speaker 1: of walking through a city that is decidedly foreign, you've

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Speaker 1: lost that, you know, you've lost that experience. I live

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Speaker 1: for that experience. So you know, you wrote this book

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Speaker 1: ten lessons for a post pandemic world. You say that,

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Speaker 1: you know, clearly we're not post pandemic, but I'm interested

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Speaker 1: in the choice of, you know, post pandemic meaning we're

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Speaker 1: kind of over the hump, And what do you mean

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Speaker 1: by that, because I think for a lot of people

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Speaker 1: we still feel like we're very deep in it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's a very good question, because I was

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Speaker 1: trying to think through at the start how to phrase this,

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Speaker 1: because really it was the shape of the future and

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Speaker 1: what I realized. So I did a lot of research

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Speaker 1: on the on the healthcare, the medicine, the science, and

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Speaker 1: I came to the conclusion it was a bet that

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Speaker 1: we would have that scenes pretty fast. Now, to give

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Speaker 1: you a sense of what a big bet this was,

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Speaker 1: if you had asked somebody five years ago how long

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Speaker 1: it would take to develop a vaccine, they would have

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Speaker 1: telled you ten years. Ten to fifteen years is the

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Speaker 1: normal timeframe. But talking to a lot of the experts

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Speaker 1: in March, I realized that no, for a variety of reasons,

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Speaker 1: and there are complicated set of reasons, but for a

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Speaker 1: variety of reasons, we are likely to get a vaccine

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Speaker 1: quite soon. And so while I was watching the public

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Speaker 1: health disaster that was America's response to COVID. I was

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Speaker 1: talking to the people in the private sector who were

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Speaker 1: telling me with great confidence, and scientists were telling me

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Speaker 1: the great confidence we're going to get past this. So

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Speaker 1: I knew that, you know, we're going to go through

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Speaker 1: a very bad phase, or at least I guessed, but

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Speaker 1: we could see the light at the end of the tunnel,

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Speaker 1: and that's where we are now. Look, if Biden does

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Speaker 1: it fantastically, If the Biden administration does a fantastic job,

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Speaker 1: America will achieve herd immunity by June. If it does

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Speaker 1: the bad job, it will achieve it by August. If

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Speaker 1: it does a super fantastic job, I am advocating. Actually

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Speaker 1: this week's column, I'm saying we should throw everything they can.

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Speaker 1: Even if you can speed it up by one month,

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Speaker 1: it's a huge accomplishment. It'll be seen as such in

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Speaker 1: the world. It'll give the impression of America as that

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Speaker 1: can do superpower again. And by the way, you'll say,

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Speaker 1: you'll make billions of dollars, tens of billions of dollars

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Speaker 1: in taxes because economic activity will start up again. So

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Speaker 1: I could tell that we were now and you know,

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Speaker 1: we were going to enter that phase where we're going

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Speaker 1: to have to ask ourselves, Okay, how much of this

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Speaker 1: do we keep? You know, what will it look like

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Speaker 1: when we go back to office, What will it look

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Speaker 1: like when we go into a movie theater? You know,

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Speaker 1: all those post pandemic questions. Do you think that it

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Speaker 1: has fundamentally changed the way that we go about living

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Speaker 1: our lives? Because I've thought about this right when the

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Speaker 1: pandemic actually happened, and I was sort of asking myself

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Speaker 1: the question, how long does it take for the new

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Speaker 1: normal to actually become normal? How long does it take

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Speaker 1: for it to seep into us so much that it

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Speaker 1: actually alters the way that we go about our lives?

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Speaker 1: And has it been long enough? I know it's been catastrophic,

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Speaker 1: I know it's been life changing, but it has barely

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Speaker 1: been a year. Is a year enough time to fundamentally

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Speaker 1: change the way that we feel and think and go

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Speaker 1: about living our lives moving forward? A great question. It's

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Speaker 1: a great question because if you look at that, you

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Speaker 1: know what follows the Great Spanish influenza of nineteen eighteen nineteen,

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Speaker 1: the Roaring twenties, the jazz time, I should have been

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Speaker 1: in that time. Well, it's so funny. Katie and I

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Speaker 1: have talked about this like a couple of weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: and Kate was like, it's going to be the Roaring twenties,

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, will this happen? And what age group?

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Speaker 1: What demographic? I mean for us, for the twenty year olds,

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Speaker 1: Is everyone going to all of a sudden just be

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Speaker 1: like making out in the streets. But here's I think

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Speaker 1: it's different. I think it's different for two or three reasons. One,

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Speaker 1: we have the big alternative we have now which we

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Speaker 1: didn't have in the twenties, was this digital life. Right

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Speaker 1: in the twenties, if you wanted to go back to

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Speaker 1: what you had to physically go back to the office.

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Speaker 1: If you wanted to be entertained, you had to physically

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Speaker 1: go into a movie theater or a play or a

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Speaker 1: vaudeville show, whatever it was. If you wanted to you know,

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Speaker 1: anything you wanted to do had to be physically done.

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Speaker 1: Where now we have this whole alternative of digital life

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Speaker 1: that I talk about. But the second part of this,

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Speaker 1: I think is also we have experienced vulnerability in a

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Speaker 1: way that we have not for fifty or sixty years

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Speaker 1: at least, you know, because of science and technology and medicine,

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Speaker 1: people have forgotten. You know, these used to be the

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Speaker 1: big killers of life. I mean, if you go back

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Speaker 1: over thousands of years, wars actually was set piece bathles

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Speaker 1: between small numbers of soldiers until you get to the

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Speaker 1: Civil war kind of mass industrial warfare. The thing that

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Speaker 1: killed you was the plague was you know, all the

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Speaker 1: various plagues in history. So there was this deep sense

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Speaker 1: of vulnerability and fragility of life, which I think we

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Speaker 1: don't have. And the third part I would say is

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Speaker 1: just I try to remind myself about this all the time.

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Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, Oliver, when you say it's just been

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Speaker 1: a year, it's going to be a year and a

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Speaker 1: half to close to two years by the time we're done, right,

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Speaker 1: when people are back fully and while for many of

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Speaker 1: us it has allowed us to continue to work and

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Speaker 1: generate income, and you know it's not been that bad,

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Speaker 1: there is a vast segment of the population around the

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Speaker 1: world for whom this has been much worse than the

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Speaker 1: Great Depression. You know, you're talking about anyone in a restaurant,

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Speaker 1: in a hotel, in a theme park, in a cruise ship,

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Speaker 1: in retail anyone in third world country. You know, So

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Speaker 1: that that feeling of like massive dislocation I do think

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Speaker 1: will be will be longer lasting than it was in

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Speaker 1: the in the nineteen eighteen period. Interesting, So you think

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Speaker 1: that that that part of the economic effect is going

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Speaker 1: to is going to take a long time to either

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Speaker 1: mend or heal. Do you think we're going to go

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Speaker 1: back to work? Do you think movies will come back

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Speaker 1: to normal? Get back to normal? I mean, look, everything

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Speaker 1: in time will find its way, you know, twenty years

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Speaker 1: from now or a new way. Will this have impacted,

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Speaker 1: you know, whatever we're doing in twenty years. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we move. We're such a fast paced society that we're

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Speaker 1: so quick to not just forget, but also to heal.

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Speaker 1: You talk about that in your book. We are extremely resilient. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're very good at forgetting, which is a useful skill.

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Speaker 1: You know. Look, I think everything, my senses, everything will

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Speaker 1: be a hybrid model. You're not going to go back

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Speaker 1: to work the same way in the past because companies

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Speaker 1: have found massive efficiencies. I mean, let me just show you.

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Speaker 1: You know, CNN, we're putting out a product that I

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Speaker 1: guess you know, if you're watching I think it's not

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Speaker 1: exactly the same show, and it's on the show I

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Speaker 1: would like to perfectly do. We don't have editing capacity

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Speaker 1: and such. We're putting out a pretty good product most people.

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Speaker 1: You know, if you look at viewership, it's its way up,

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Speaker 1: and we're not using any office space or barely using

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Speaker 1: the offices we have, and we have ten floors. I

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Speaker 1: think at Hudson Yard is one of the most fanciest

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Speaker 1: real estate complexes in New York City, and it's lying

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Speaker 1: empty with the you know, while we go in periodically,

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Speaker 1: but very specifically, large parts of it are lying empty.

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Speaker 1: What does that tell you, right? What are the corporate

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Speaker 1: executives learning. I think we're learning a lot about education.

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Speaker 1: We were talking about this earlier, right. I think that

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Speaker 1: you're going to have to have a hybrid model. We

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Speaker 1: are definitely going to go back to in person because

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Speaker 1: the richness of the educational experience is so much in

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Speaker 1: the in person. But there are things that are very

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Speaker 1: easy to communicate, you know, via zoom, bya whatever it is,

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Speaker 1: and I think we'll do that with the theaters. I

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Speaker 1: think that, as you know, is a longer term trend.

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Speaker 1: But I think my gut is you'll still have a

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Speaker 1: hybrid model that just for the pr value alone, a

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Speaker 1: big movie studio is not going to want to just

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Speaker 1: release on streaming. You know, the idea the release in

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Speaker 1: the theater gives you a lot of free publicity. It

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Speaker 1: gives you, it calls it to attention, it makes people

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Speaker 1: review it. So yeah, there's exactly there's a physical event

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Speaker 1: and that you know, you can't pay for that publicity.

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Speaker 1: That that if there's a physical event, people pay attention

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Speaker 1: to it differently than than if it's a virtual event.

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Speaker 1: So I suspect we are moving into you know, the

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Speaker 1: next phase will be this hybrid life, and we're all

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Speaker 1: going to be trying to figure it out mm hm

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Speaker 1: based on history, because you talk a lot about there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of information in your book about previous diseases, administrations,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. But we have a deadly pandemic and an insurrection,

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Speaker 1: deeply divided country all at the same time. Now, is

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Speaker 1: this a coincidence or is there some sort of interconnect

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Speaker 1: connectedness to all of these issues. It's a it's a

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Speaker 1: great question. I think that the larger phenomenon of Trump

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Speaker 1: and right wing populism is not really connected to the

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Speaker 1: to the pandemic. It's it's though it is part of

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Speaker 1: a kind of growing globalization development, you know, this sort

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Speaker 1: of fast forward world we've been in really ever since

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Speaker 1: the collapse of the Soviet Union, and and this is

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Speaker 1: the you know, in some ways, Trump is the backlash

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Speaker 1: to that world. It's the people saying stop the world,

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Speaker 1: stop the strain, I want to get off, or you know,

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Speaker 1: standing a thwart history saying stop. But what the pandemic

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Speaker 1: do did do, which I think is related to the

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Speaker 1: insurrection into the tensions, is it exposed the reality that

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump was uniquely ill suited for the presidency because

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Speaker 1: he doesn't really believe in government. He doesn't, you know,

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Speaker 1: that's not really He is more indifferent to government than

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Speaker 1: any person who has ever become president. He really thinks

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Speaker 1: it's a kind of TV show where you tweet and

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Speaker 1: you make you know, it's symbolic, it's performative. There isn't

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Speaker 1: actually a job of governing, administering, corralling bureaucracies. So the

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Speaker 1: pandemic forced forced us to recognize that. And it made

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Speaker 1: his supporters angry, and it made his opponents even angrier,

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Speaker 1: and so it all it all ended up coming to

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Speaker 1: a head on January sixth. So in that sense, I

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Speaker 1: think the pandemic did in a sense that accelerated the

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Speaker 1: tensions around the Trump residents. Well, I think it was

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Speaker 1: also just another catalyst for division, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was just another widget, even though I'm not calling

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Speaker 1: it a widget, but in a sense it was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: here's another thing that we can pick people against. Fuck masks.

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Speaker 1: I don't believe it. It's a hoax. It's overblown. Now

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Speaker 1: everyone's like, oh, yeah, it's all bullshit. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: just enough. Yeah, And you know, and you know, part

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Speaker 1: of that was rooted in a force that has been

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Speaker 1: kind of exacerbated by the pandemic, which is, you know,

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Speaker 1: a lot of what is motivating this political divide in

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Speaker 1: America is a sort of cultural slash class conflict between

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Speaker 1: an urban, more educated, more liberal, you know, city dwellers

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Speaker 1: and the more rural, less educated people, you know, living outside.

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Speaker 1: If you look. There was a very good article in

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Speaker 1: the Atlantic that said the two strongest predictors of this

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Speaker 1: election in terms of how you voted were density and diplomas.

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Speaker 1: If you lived in a densely populated place, if you

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Speaker 1: had a diploma, you voted for Joe Biden. If you

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Speaker 1: lived in a sparsely populated place and you didn't have

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Speaker 1: a diploma, you voted for Trump. Why is that? That's

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Speaker 1: a great question. I mean, I think it's become a

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Speaker 1: proxy for culture, for values, for you know, at some level,

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Speaker 1: your degree of openness to this world of change and diversity,

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Speaker 1: you know, because we are going through a lot of change.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think the people there are people who

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Speaker 1: look at this and say, my world is disappearing, And

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Speaker 1: to a certain extent, they're right, you know that that

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Speaker 1: kind of monocultural, white majority, Christian dominated well not part

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Speaker 1: of it is it's a bit of a fantasy, you know,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't It's been changing slowly for a while. But

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Speaker 1: they're right. And then the question is are you open

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Speaker 1: to the fact that, yeah, and it may be a

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Speaker 1: more interesting, more diverse, more energetic, more dynamic world, or

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Speaker 1: do you look at it with horror and say, you know,

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Speaker 1: I want to stop this all. So I think part

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Speaker 1: of it is that in education and city dwelling tends

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Speaker 1: to open you up. I think it's always fascinating to

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Speaker 1: me that the people who are most opposed to immigration

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Speaker 1: in America live in places that have no immigrants. Right,

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Speaker 1: and the people who are most open to immigration in

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Speaker 1: America are surrounded by noisy, crowded neighborhoods with immigrants. And

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Speaker 1: I think it's, you know, it's like people who live

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Speaker 1: with immigrants artists, they're just like everyone else. They are

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Speaker 1: not to be feared. They're they're you know, some nice,

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Speaker 1: some bad so or you know where. Whereas the people

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Speaker 1: who don't see them, it's this this paranoid fear of

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Speaker 1: the thing which you actually have, no, you don't encounter. Well,

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Speaker 1: there's also there's so much anger and hostility and vitriol.

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Speaker 1: And just do you think And I've always I've thought

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Speaker 1: about this question. Were these were these people sort of

426
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 1: laying in the weeds and unafraid to express themselves and

427
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 1: how and how they really feel because they were the minority,

428
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 1: so to speak, and they couldn't actually voice that opinion

429
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: for political correctness and other various reasons. Right and Donald

430
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 1: Trump came along and enabled them, allowed them to be

431
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: able to to be who they are and say what

432
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 1: they feel. Or did he incite these people? Did he

433
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 1: sort of you know, bring this out in these people?

434
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 1: I think it's a combination of the two. Look, there's

435
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 1: always been this strain of American politics, you know, the

436
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,959
Speaker 1: people who liked McCarthy, the people who voted for George

437
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 1: Wallace in nineteen sixty eight. People often forget the election

438
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 1: of the nineteen sixty eight wasn't just between Richard Nixon

439
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: and Hubert Humphrey, Johnson's vice president, but there was a

440
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 1: third party candidate, George Wallace ran on an explicitly pro

441
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: segregation platform, and he got about fifteen percent of the vote.

442
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: So some in some ways, maybe the question you're asking

443
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 1: is did the fifteen percent become forty? And I think

444
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: that's a complicated question whether you're not, because some part

445
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 1: FRUM support is obviously not racist, some part is just angry.

446
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 1: But I think that there's no question healed demidse it.

447
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 1: He gave permission to people to you know, look, we

448
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: all have different parts of our I think of this

449
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 1: about even I mean myself to be honest, Like you know,

450
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: I've got a dark side, I've got a nasty side,

451
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 1: I've got a mean side. And it's part of leadership

452
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,880
Speaker 1: is to to appeal to the better angels in Lincoln's phrase,

453
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 1: rather than those demons, and Trump is all demons. You know,

454
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 1: he really looks at life, and I've all been struck

455
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 1: by this. It is such a profoundly nasty view of life,

456
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: where you know everyone is in it for themselves. You know.

457
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,360
Speaker 1: He's so he's he's talking like nobody else talks. He's

458
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 1: he's assuming you are as narrowly self interested as he is,

459
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: and and he celebrates that. I was also saying that

460
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 1: I had this like very emotional response to his exit,

461
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: and I didn't quite understand it. I mean, I mean

462
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,199
Speaker 1: I did, I understand, I understand it, but when I

463
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 1: really reflected on why, it felt like an emotional release.

464
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:08,719
Speaker 1: I think that anyone who, like any woman, any person

465
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 1: of color, that has experienced in their own life that

466
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,479
Speaker 1: kind of that person, that that that we we we

467
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 1: actually experience more often than I wish we did. You know,

468
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 1: It's almost like being with an abusive partner and having

469
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: that kind of abusive leader that you see and you experience.

470
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 1: And when he left, it was like watching it was

471
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 1: like finally the abusive partner is gone. You know. I

472
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 1: I felt that way when I when I was watching

473
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 1: him him leave. You do say, though in less than

474
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 1: seven and in your book, which scares me. I don't

475
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 1: like this, but you say that inequality will get worse,

476
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 1: and so we're talking about all these things. But I'd

477
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 1: love for you to kind of share what you mean

478
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 1: by that, because it's a scary thought. Yeah. Well, well,

479
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 1: first of all, I just want to say what you

480
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 1: said really resonated for me, because you know, I'm an

481
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 1: immigrant and I've come to this country and I found

482
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: it like a totally magical place I have fallen. I

483
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: fell in love with America when I first came. I

484
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: wanted to become an American and one of the things

485
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 1: I loved about it was that I was just able

486
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: to do my thing and do what I love. And

487
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: I know it was never about what skin color I was,

488
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: what religion I was. You know, that just seemed irrelevant

489
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 1: to two places I was I was moving into. And

490
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: I never I tried very hard not to be somebody

491
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: who's using my identity as an explanation for why you

492
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: should listen to me or anything. You know, I almost

493
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 1: never wrote an article that said as a person of

494
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: color as a and then Trump comes along and he

495
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: starts attacking people, you know, and he's attacking Muslims, and

496
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 1: I'm Muslim, and he's attacking people who were look different.

497
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: And I suddenly felt exactly what you were saying, which

498
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: I had never felt before. I saw felt part of

499
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: it is it also unleashed to all of us. Point

500
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: it unleashed a lot of cup torrent of abuse that

501
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 1: I had to deal with on Facebook and Twitter, and

502
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: you know, all this to go back to where you

503
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: came from. Amusingly, Americans no lits, so a little about

504
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: the world that they would always get my country of

505
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: origin wrong. So it would be like go back to Indonesia,

506
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 1: go back to you know, the It was somewhere weird.

507
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: But but then you know, I got I got phone

508
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: calls that, you know, threatening my daughters, you know, saying

509
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: to them, you know, do you know, you know, saying

510
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: nasty things about their father and stuff. So all that

511
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: sort of suddenly put me in a position where I

512
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,719
Speaker 1: felt like, now now I'm feeling like a spokesman for

513
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: you know, immigrant people of color, Like that's not what

514
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 1: I want to do. I'm a guy who just you know,

515
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: tries to understand the world, studies from my identity. Isn't

516
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: that central to my work, But it was sort of

517
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: forced on me. And so the relief I feel is

518
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: I can get back to doing what I really like

519
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: to do. I don't have to be, you know, some

520
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: symbol of you know, different, because it's an act of

521
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: coward is not to claim your identity if somebody is

522
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: attacking you for it. So I'm just glad to kind

523
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: of be back to normal life. And that's the relief

524
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: I feel about Joe Biden's administration. It's just they all

525
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: talk like normal people. They all talk like normal politicians.

526
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: They you know, they're like everyone seems to be approaching

527
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: this like a normal person, And to feel like the

528
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: freak show is over is a huge relief. Inequality. Inequality.

529
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: Let me just quickly say, oh yeah, so I think that.

530
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: Think about what we had been talking about earlier, right,

531
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: the digital kind of elite, Like if you are a businessman,

532
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: a bank or a lawyer, a consultant, a journalist at

533
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: an academic you can do you can do your job

534
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: just fine online. My guess is that actually for actors

535
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: it's a little bit more complicated, but you know, you

536
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: can there's a lot of income that can be generated

537
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: digitally by all those professions. But if you're a person

538
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: who works with his hands or her hands, you know,

539
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 1: the retailed hospitality all that. It's like the Great Depression

540
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: for you. So you know those people are low wages anyway.

541
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: So you're seeing this rise of the digital world producing

542
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 1: more income the non digital world producing rise. I'll give

543
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: you an example of the book itself. So publishing has

544
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: in general done well through the pandemic because it turns

545
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: out not everyone is watching Netflix. A few people like

546
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: you are reading books, and so book sales are up.

547
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: There are I think about fifteen twelve to fifteen percent

548
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 1: greatly offware. But here's the thing. In February twenty twenty,

549
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: Amazon was thirty percent of book sales in America. It's

550
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: now sixty five percent of book sales in America. So

551
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: the big get bigger, and who's losing out. It's all

552
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: the Mormon pop bookstores that didn't have good work sites,

553
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,719
Speaker 1: that don't have amazing delivery, that don't have huge discounts, right,

554
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: And that's happening with hardware stores. That's happening. You know.

555
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: You can see in each of these areas Walmart is

556
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: doing well, Home Depot is doing well. The little guy

557
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 1: is not. So in all these areas, you're seeing this

558
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: exacerbation of inequality, which will continue to create the resentments,

559
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 1: the tension, and so yeah, on that front, I'm that's

560
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 1: probably the thing I'm most worried about and most gloomy about,

561
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: is this rise of inequality. I have a question about that.

562
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: This is a bigger it's a much bigger question, okay,

563
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 1: about equality. I mean, has there ever First of all,

564
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 1: what does equality mean? In the bigger sense? Has there

565
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: ever been true equality when we're striving to be equal?

566
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: It's it's very broad, it's big Historically, has there ever

567
00:32:54,520 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: been true equality? And can you exist with true It's

568
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: kind of esoteric, it's bigger. But you know, what are

569
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:08,239
Speaker 1: we striving for? Yeah, it's a very profound question. And

570
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: of course you're right. I mean, if you think about

571
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 1: it in terms of like in the old in ancient Egypt,

572
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: was was it equal? No? There was the pharaoh, and

573
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: there were the slaves, and there were the courtiers. Right,

574
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: So I think what we're talking about is if you

575
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: look at the last couple of hundred years, which is

576
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: probably the most relevant comparison between the depression in the

577
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties and the nineteen eighties, Western societies were able

578
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: to achieve something that seemed like a miracle, which was

579
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: that they got really good, robust economic growth. The societies grew,

580
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: there was a lot of dynamism, but yet it was

581
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: not something that created a massive degree of inequality. Everyone

582
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: moved up together. Yeah, the rich may have gone a

583
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: little bit faster than everybody else. But you know, if

584
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: you were a steel worker, you were seeing your wages

585
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: go up. You know, no matter what you are doing,

586
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: average eight wages, medium wages were all going on. And

587
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: what happens around the time of the nineteen eighties that

588
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 1: that connection between every you know, the general economic growth

589
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: and middle class wages stops going up. So if you're

590
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: doing if you're if you're a high flyer, you start

591
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: doing really well, and if your middle class, your wages

592
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 1: starts stagnating, and that produces this huge inequality. So everyone

593
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 1: is trying to figure out, like, how did we do that?

594
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: How did that happen? Part of the answer maybe it

595
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 1: was a very unusual set of circumstances. You know, you

596
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 1: had a great depression that you that all these countries

597
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: were climbing out of. You had a world war, which

598
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: created a huge collective enterprise where everyone was in it together.

599
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: You had, you know, still a lot of regulations on economies,

600
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: you had a lot of regulation on globalization. So it

601
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: may not be possible to replicate that, you know, That's

602
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 1: that's the quest. But some countries have better than others,

603
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: and one has to say the US has done pretty

604
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 1: badly at that. So if you look at you know,

605
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: the two things I look at as one in the

606
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 1: central thing, I think that matters to most people. This

607
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: is what I think the American dream means is can

608
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: you do better than your parents? Do you have the

609
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: opportunity to do better than your parents? Right? And that's

610
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,399
Speaker 1: what historically people have come to America for and things

611
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 1: like that. Well, now it's pretty clear if you live

612
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 1: in most countries in Europe or Canada, you have a

613
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 1: better chance of doing better than your parents economically than

614
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: in the United States. And that's a tragedy, right, and

615
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 1: that's something we can fix. And that the reason why

616
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 1: that happens. We've got a really lousy education system that

617
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 1: basically funds on the basis of where you live, you know,

618
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 1: because we fund education through property taxes, unlike almost anybody

619
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 1: in the world, which means if you're in a rich neighborhood,

620
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 1: you get a good school if you're in a shitty

621
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: neighbor whereas actually it should be opposite. We should be

622
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 1: spending more money on poor neighborhoods because those people needed more. Right,

623
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 1: Such a lot of things like that which have developed

624
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,439
Speaker 1: in America that keep poor people down, even though it's

625
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 1: supposedly equality of opportunity. So to me, that's the big fix,

626
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,399
Speaker 1: That's what I'd like to fix. Well, you do talk

627
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: about you do talk about capitalism and that it's broken,

628
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 1: you know, and what is the fix? Is it just education?

629
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: I mean it's I mean, there's healthcare, there's all these

630
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: I think more than ever, maybe one of the silver

631
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 1: linings of a Trump presidency is that more people, and

632
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 1: more young people are understanding what the actual issues are

633
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,919
Speaker 1: in our country. And I'm even seeing my son who's

634
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: seventeen years old. I didn't know any issues that were

635
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: going on in our country at seventeen, and my son

636
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 1: is well versed on a lot of them. So I wonder,

637
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: you know, what is the answer to a broken If

638
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: capitalism is broken, where do we go as Americans? And

639
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 1: what do we do about people who are stuck lunch

640
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 1: capitalists who that's the way forward for them. You know,

641
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 1: it's a tough balance because clearly capitalism is the most

642
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: dynamic for economic system, it's the most productive. It gives

643
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 1: you all the innovation, and you want all that. But

644
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 1: the point I'm trying to make in the book is

645
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 1: that there are some areas where it's driving us to

646
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: a place where we don't want as a society. So

647
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: for example, look in technology, you're just ending up with

648
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: these massive oligopolies or really monopolies. When I go to

649
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 1: Silicon Valley, now what I'm struck by is, and I've

650
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: been going for twenty odd years, you used to have

651
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 1: a lot of young entrepreneurs who wanted to take the

652
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: company's public, who dreamed of taking that company's public, like

653
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 1: that was the big goal. Nowadays most of them realize

654
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 1: they're never going to be able to make it on

655
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 1: their own. Their goal is to get bought by one

656
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: of the five monopoly you know players, Microsoft, Amazon, Apple, Facebook, Google.

657
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: It's sort of becomes weird world that totally dominated by

658
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 1: five companies, and in each one in their own space,

659
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,359
Speaker 1: they don't really compete with one another. They collude. Sometimes

660
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 1: they make competitors impossible, you know, so that can't be

661
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: like the right. But you know, from a market point

662
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 1: of view, it's pretty efficient, right, Why better have one

663
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: simple platform where you can buy everything rather than having

664
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of these stores that But what happens

665
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 1: to all those thousands and thousands of shopkeepers who used

666
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: to make a living? Right? So it feels like the

667
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: market can't solve that problem because the market is giving

668
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 1: you a solution which is hyper efficient, but it's not

669
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 1: socially acceptable in a society. So we need government, We

670
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 1: need politics to solve this problem for us, and sometimes

671
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 1: it means regulation. I think some of these companies do

672
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 1: have to be regulated. I think some of these companies

673
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: we need to explore whether breaking them up into some

674
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 1: of their parts makes sense. I think in some cases

675
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 1: it means more redistribution. You know, it's not just education.

676
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 1: I think a lot of poor kids in America don't

677
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,240
Speaker 1: do well because they are malnutrition. I mean, they're literally

678
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: their brains are being deformed because they're so poorly. You know,

679
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,439
Speaker 1: they face so many challenges. And when you face those

680
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 1: challenges nutritionally, when you're three months sold, four months sold,

681
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 1: five months there's very good brain science on this. Now

682
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: you're just under developing the brain, right. So there's so

683
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: many areas where I think what we have to do

684
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 1: is recognize, like the market isn't going to solve that problem.

685
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 1: There is no market reason why the poor kid in

686
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 1: Harlem or in Appalachia is going to get you know.

687
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: But that's why we need an aggressive federal effort. So

688
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: we need, you know, to use money to help that.

689
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:47,879
Speaker 1: So that's what I mean. I don't want to kill

690
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 1: the goose that lays the golden eggs. I love capitalism,

691
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 1: but I think we have to recognize there are problems

692
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,720
Speaker 1: in society that you know, the idea that the market

693
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: will solve everything. It just give everybody a voucher or

694
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: something that they'll all be happy. No, that's it's not

695
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: going to work. Now. Now, people love to use Denmark

696
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: as an example, and it's interesting because I've been reading

697
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: a lot about it, and then you mentioned it as well.

698
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 1: And this is might be a very dumb question, even

699
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 1: though people tell me there is no DOWMB question. It's

700
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: so small. I mean, we're talking about three hundred million

701
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 1: people and Denmark is what made up of six just

702
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 1: about I just wonder how realistic it is when people

703
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 1: talk about, you know, governments that run like Denmark and

704
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 1: how real Ernie Sanders essentially using Denmark as an example,

705
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 1: how truly realistic that would be in America. What do

706
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: you think? No, No, Look, it's a good question. Here's

707
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 1: what I would say. A couple of reasons why I

708
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: think it's not It's not a bad example. A lot

709
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: of American government happens at a very local level. In fact,

710
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 1: a lot of American government happens at a county level.

711
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: That's one of the reasons we have this crazy quilt

712
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 1: patchwork of healthcare systems, because actual authority in America is

713
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: held by two thousand, nine hundred different county public health systems.

714
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: Look at our crazy quote patchwork of voting. Every county

715
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: has a different amer the two thousand election where within Florida,

716
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: every county had authority over their own ballots, and some

717
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 1: were you know, butterfly ballots, and some were machines. And

718
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 1: so we actually a lot of what you'd need to

719
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 1: implement is implemented at a county level, which is much

720
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: smaller than Denmark. It's often a few hundred thousand people

721
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 1: and Secondly, that basic spirit that I describe in Denmark,

722
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,399
Speaker 1: which is, you know, be very pro market, but at

723
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: the same time use the money to create greater equality

724
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:50,800
Speaker 1: and greater opportunity, is true of Germany. And the most

725
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 1: interesting example is it's true in Canada. Canada now has

726
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: much better social mobility than the United States. If you're

727
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 1: a poor kid in Canada, uh you are, you are

728
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 1: more likely statistically to move out of your poverty, up

729
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 1: your up the income ladder than in the United States.

730
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: And Canada is a reasonably big country. It's very similar

731
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 1: in many ways to the United States. Canadians don't like

732
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 1: to hear that, but it is. And so, you know,

733
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, at the very least at

734
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 1: the state level, you should be able to experiment with

735
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:31,280
Speaker 1: this with these kinds of ideas. I'm gonna tap your rocket,

736
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: I'm tapping the rock days. It's cosed live, it's cossed lot,

737
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 1: it's caused live. Big game is right around the courts.

738
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 1: It's a big game. Everyone is pumped, not only for

739
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 1: football but for the commercials. Cores wanted to create the

740
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 1: most refreshing ad of all time, so they're bringing it

741
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:52,720
Speaker 1: to a place. No big game commercial has ever gone before?

742
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: Your dreams sounds impossible, right, It turns out it's not.

743
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: Cores has been working with old renowned sleep psychologist doctor

744
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 1: De Dre Barrett and a team of visual artists to

745
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 1: make it happen. So they conducted an experiment. Participants watched

746
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 1: a trippy two minute video and then fell asleep to

747
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: an eight hour long relaxing audio soundscape. Crazy enough, it

748
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 1: actually worked, and they actually dreamed. Refreshing Cores ads all right,

749
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 1: So Cors wants listeners to try this for themselves. The

750
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 1: Cores Dream Experience is available now. So you go to

751
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 1: coorsbiggamedream dot com to experience the first big game commercial

752
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 1: that you have to fall asleep to watch. Watch the

753
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 1: virtual dream stimulus from the comfort of your bed, and

754
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 1: dream your way into your very own big game commercial.

755
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,520
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756
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 1: except maybe a really good dream. Cores wants to hear

757
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,479
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758
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:04,879
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759
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,600
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760
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 1: the first big game ad that only runs in your dreams,

761
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Speaker 1: Celebrate Responsibly twenty twenty one CORPS for Run Company Golden

762
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 1: Colorado and FT for Worth Texas Beer. What about it's

763
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 1: what's in the news social media. You know, you're seeing

764
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: all of these these social media companies now banning people

765
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: Trump and various others. Right, then you're getting into the

766
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 1: First Amendment stuff regulation? Right, should there be government regulation

767
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 1: on these private companies? Well, now you're getting into his

768
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: personal politics, Oliver. Well, I'm just saying because I've had

769
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 1: conversations with with some of my more conservative friends, and

770
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 1: I'm sort of right down the middle. I'm an independent.

771
00:44:57,880 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: I can't go one way or the other. I don't

772
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 1: under stand that how I can put all my beliefs

773
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: in one side or all my beliefs in another. But

774
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: I've had conversations with conservative friends who are not happy

775
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 1: about all of what's going on, and I'm like, well,

776
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 1: it's a it's a private company. You're a capitalist, like you,

777
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:16,720
Speaker 1: you should be cool with it. They can do whatever

778
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 1: the fuck they want. Well, I think, you know, I

779
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 1: think I kind of want to reframe your question if

780
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 1: that's okay. Which is the power and since you know,

781
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 1: historically like they hold so much power. Clearly, these media

782
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: social media companies, you know, they are a huge part

783
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: of our economy and our growth. I mean, I have

784
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 1: my own beliefs on this, but just from a like

785
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 1: a historian's perspective, if you give someone that much power,

786
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:50,400
Speaker 1: are we setting ourselves up for disaster? Yeah, it's a

787
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,800
Speaker 1: it's a it's a huge subject. Then you guys, you're

788
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 1: just listening to the two of you. I see you're

789
00:45:55,800 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 1: coming at it from two different, very interesting places. I

790
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,439
Speaker 1: think the way I would put it in this, first

791
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: of all, when you think about, you know, the power

792
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: that Mark Zuckerberg has to ban Trump or Jack Dorsey has, Yeah,

793
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: it worries me a lot. I do think it's a

794
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,399
Speaker 1: private company, but these are huge public utilities almost these

795
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 1: are public platforms that really it's different from just you know,

796
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 1: it's not that Mark Zuckerberg owns one newspaper. It's that

797
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 1: he owns really the oxygen in which everybody breathes and so.

798
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: And the way I think about it is, would I

799
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 1: be comfortable if it had turned out that Rupert Murdoch

800
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,399
Speaker 1: ended up being the guy not Mark Zuckerberg, which could

801
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 1: very easily have happened. If you remember Murdoch bought my

802
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 1: Space at about the same time that Zuckerberg found Facebook,

803
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 1: and many people believe my Space was the one that

804
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: would win out in that battle for social media platforms.

805
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: And if it had been my Space, would we all

806
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: be saying, oh, let's leave it to so, you know,

807
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,359
Speaker 1: let's leave it to Rupert. Rupert can figure out what's

808
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:09,759
Speaker 1: good speech and what's bad. I think people would have

809
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 1: a very different view on all that. So I it

810
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,359
Speaker 1: makes me creasy. And yet, you know, I don't know

811
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 1: how does the government do it, how does advance free speech?

812
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: So here's here's where I come out. The biggest problem

813
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 1: is this. I like social media in the sense that

814
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 1: it has allowed enormous vitality and democracy, and you know,

815
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 1: people have been able to find audiences and find each other,

816
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 1: and you know, all that stuff is great. Here's the

817
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 1: fundamental problem politically, which is that social media privileges lies

818
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:54,240
Speaker 1: and sensationalism over truth and boring facts. And I I'm

819
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 1: not saying this about some distant person me. I I

820
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:01,840
Speaker 1: am more likely to click on some thing that seems bizarro,

821
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 1: too weird to be true, then I will on some

822
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:09,359
Speaker 1: you know, boring policy initiative that you know, you can

823
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 1: tell Okay, I get it, I get it. Biden is

824
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 1: reaching out to the European allies, right, versus that between

825
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: Biden's son Ran a Chinese prostitution ring, Like I am

826
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: more likely to say, hmm, that can't really be true

827
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 1: and you click on it, right, And that that dynamic

828
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 1: of lives being privileged over truth of falsehoods of a fact.

829
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: It's inherent in the nature of the of the system

830
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 1: and the algorithms they use ensure that. Because they're trying

831
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 1: to maximize engagement, all they're doing is they're getting you

832
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 1: to do more and more and more and more and more.

833
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 1: So I have this from an Indonesian friend of mine

834
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 1: who's a great tech entrepreneur. He said, maybe the answer

835
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 1: is you have to force them to modify the algorithms.

836
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: The algorithms cannot just be on this one maximization of

837
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:03,280
Speaker 1: saying we're just going to you know, just engagement, engagement, engagement,

838
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,359
Speaker 1: which leads to profit, profit profit. There has to be

839
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 1: some sense that this has become a kind of information

840
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 1: highway and maybe everybody has to see randomly generated you know,

841
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:20,240
Speaker 1: other points of view, opposing points of view, fact based

842
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 1: you know, I'm rather think this through. But ultimately, if

843
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 1: you don't fix the algorithm, we being human beings, we

844
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: are going to go for falsehood over fact, and we

845
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 1: are going to end up in a culture that is

846
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:40,239
Speaker 1: drowning in falsehoods, you know, while the facts are desperately

847
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 1: trying to bubble up to the surface. I have an idea,

848
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 1: you mix falsehood with fact. So Biden is signing the

849
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 1: Paris Climate Accord, but naked. So then so then you're

850
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: like what And it's a picture of Biden's sort of

851
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,439
Speaker 1: like maybe half closed, and you're like, oh my god,

852
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 1: what And then you click on it and it's a

853
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,879
Speaker 1: real article. But now you're waiting for the butt naked part,

854
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 1: and at the end you don't really get there. So

855
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 1: isn't that what they do? Anyway? That's what they do.

856
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: I have a new media I have a new media

857
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: company for you to found, and I think maybe it'd

858
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 1: be called really Sexy News something like that, exactly exactly.

859
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:33,839
Speaker 1: I know we're going totally the opposite way, but at

860
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 1: some point, I just want to hear about your upbringing

861
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 1: a little bit and coming to America, just for a second,

862
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: and and what got you so inspired to do what

863
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 1: you do. I grew up in India. My dad was

864
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 1: a politician and my mom was a journalist, so you know,

865
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 1: in my house, this was like it was alive with

866
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 1: this kind of discussion. They were there was sort of

867
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:03,239
Speaker 1: upper middle class, but I incredibly privileged, not financially but

868
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: in the sense that, you know, we met people from

869
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 1: all walks of life. We knew people from all They

870
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,279
Speaker 1: were very well connected, I guess would be one way

871
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 1: of thinking about it. But for a kid, what it

872
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 1: did was just sort of opened up the world, like

873
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 1: everything seemed possible because I would meet architects, and I

874
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 1: would meet scientists, and I would meet, you know, with politicians,

875
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 1: and just fascinated by the world. Fascinated by I don't

876
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 1: know why, Like I read Henry Kissindra's memoirs when I

877
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 1: was fifteen years old. I still remember that, you know,

878
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 1: and I didn't even think it was as weird as

879
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,799
Speaker 1: I now look back at, having had fifteen year olds,

880
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 1: I'm like, what was I thinking? But and I then,

881
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 1: you know, it was fascinated by America. Apply here for

882
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:49,919
Speaker 1: a scholarship, and I got a scholarship to Yale, came

883
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:53,719
Speaker 1: to Yale, fell in love with America and just was

884
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 1: always like, initially I didn't think I could do this

885
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 1: for a living, and I still think it's like I'm

886
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:03,280
Speaker 1: it's like a big scam for as far as I'm concerned,

887
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 1: because I would do this for free. I don't, you know,

888
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 1: I mean, to me, it doesn't feel like work except

889
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 1: that I get paid, and so I, you know, this

890
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 1: is what I love to do. I would read this

891
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 1: stuff anyway, I would analyze it anyway, or talk to

892
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 1: these people anyway. And what I love about it is

893
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:25,280
Speaker 1: most probably is that I get to communicate this interest

894
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 1: and this passion to people, you know, and to be

895
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 1: able to do it. So as long as I can

896
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,319
Speaker 1: do that, I feel like I've sort of you know,

897
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: I've just hit the jackpart of life. I'm very I

898
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:42,760
Speaker 1: feel very deeply satisfied with what I do, you know, professionally,

899
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 1: even though you know, by many metrics are people who

900
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: are much much more successful than I am. Do you

901
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 1: have brothers or sisters. I have a brother who's two

902
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 1: years older, and he is a hedge fund manager, and

903
00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 1: by the normal metrics of American life just to save money,

904
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:05,359
Speaker 1: he is vastly most successful than I am, and are

905
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 1: you are you do you like sports? Are you sports fan?

906
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:11,920
Speaker 1: So I played. I like to play more than I

907
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:13,919
Speaker 1: do to watch. Part of it is that I grew

908
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 1: up in India, complete cricket fanatic. Yeah, and then I

909
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:20,360
Speaker 1: came here before the internet at all. And you know,

910
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:23,239
Speaker 1: to talk to an American about cricket, they think you're

911
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:25,400
Speaker 1: like talking about, you know, having a tea party or

912
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 1: something like that. They're sense a very intense competitive sport.

913
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 1: But I played. I played tennis and I follow tennis.

914
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 1: That's probably the one main one. And I basketball a

915
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: little bit. Basketball is the easiest one for immigrants because

916
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:42,400
Speaker 1: it's like fast, high scoring. You don't need to like

917
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 1: I still have problem with football, Like I look at

918
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 1: it and I'm like, what exactly just happened? And my

919
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:54,319
Speaker 1: favorite description of football is the colonist George Will said,

920
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 1: it combines two of America's worst features, violence punctuated by

921
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 1: committee meetings. You know, here's a good example of like

922
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 1: globalization and all the things we've been talking about. So

923
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 1: cricket has now been totally transformed by India. Because India

924
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 1: is the biggest market by far, everybody else fails in comparison.

925
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 1: So the Indians now essentially run global cricket. It is

926
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 1: the It is the place that everyone wants to play it.

927
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:27,320
Speaker 1: They have all the largest advertising revenues, and the Indians

928
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 1: have adapted. Actually it was an Australian innovation. So the

929
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:34,439
Speaker 1: new hard way to play cricket is what are called

930
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 1: limited overs. Basically, they are two hour matches. Everything goes fast,

931
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 1: everyone's no one's wearing no one's wearing whites anymore. Everyone's

932
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 1: wearing very colorful clothes, and it feels a little bit

933
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:48,839
Speaker 1: like you're in the middle of a Bollywood movie. Oh

934
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:53,400
Speaker 1: really Yeah, a lot of a lot of googlees, nice googly,

935
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:58,839
Speaker 1: I know. Okay, one hundred years from now, what do

936
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:03,719
Speaker 1: you think historic will be saying about this post pandemic world. Yeah,

937
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:05,799
Speaker 1: I think it. You know. I end the book with

938
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 1: this idea that look, it's all up to us. I

939
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:10,720
Speaker 1: actually end with with my favorite scene out of Lawrence

940
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 1: of Arabia, where this guy, uh so Lawrence is trying

941
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:21,040
Speaker 1: to get these Arab tribes to attack Akaba, an Ottoman

942
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 1: port and they's taking out a bunch of people along

943
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 1: with him, and one of the Arabs gets lost, and

944
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 1: Lawrence says, I want to go back and get him,

945
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:31,359
Speaker 1: and they say no, no, no, his time had come.

946
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 1: It is written. So Lawrence says no. And he then

947
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:38,920
Speaker 1: there's a speed row tool in this impossibly handsome you know.

948
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:44,240
Speaker 1: It dashes back through the sandstorm, it finds him, brings

949
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 1: him back and triumphantly brings him to the Arab chieftain

950
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 1: who was on marsharif Uh and he and he plunts

951
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 1: him down to him, and he says, nothing is written,

952
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:57,799
Speaker 1: you know, meaning we write our own destiny. I can so.

953
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 1: To me, it feels like, you know, nothing is written,

954
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:03,879
Speaker 1: nothing is said. A lot depends on whether we learn

955
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:07,240
Speaker 1: the lessons from this pandemic. To me, the central lesson,

956
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 1: you know, it's my lesson number one is we are

957
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 1: living in a very fragile world, and nature is telling

958
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 1: us that. You know this, this is nature's way of

959
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 1: telling us you are not paying attention to the risks here,

960
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 1: you know, the way we are developing and crowding out

961
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 1: and destroying the natural habitat of animals, The way we

962
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 1: engage in factory farming, which is an invitation for the

963
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:34,839
Speaker 1: next pandemic. Thousands of cattle and chickens hoarded together in

964
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 1: just utterly inhuman conditions, the viruses jumping from one chicken

965
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:41,920
Speaker 1: to another, so that by the time they get to

966
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 1: the ten thousand chicken, they are now very potent. This

967
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,719
Speaker 1: is all, you know, Look at the forest fires we've had.

968
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:51,000
Speaker 1: You know, we had five million acres of land burned

969
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:53,719
Speaker 1: in America last year to the ground. That is, the

970
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 1: entire state of Massachusetts burnt to the ground. You know,

971
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,719
Speaker 1: we need to like really well, cup and recognize what

972
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 1: we are doing to the planet. What we are doing

973
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 1: in terms of development is reckless and and there are

974
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 1: actually are ways to deal with this. There are there

975
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:11,799
Speaker 1: are ways to buy insurance, there are ways to put

976
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:14,839
Speaker 1: in seatbelts, there are ways to put in you know, airbags,

977
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 1: And I think if we get that right, that sort of,

978
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: you know, the most central lesson will be okay. The

979
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 1: other the other stuff. You know, it's a question of

980
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:27,480
Speaker 1: do you have the best society you can, are you

981
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 1: living up to your potential? Are you bringing everyone? Those

982
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 1: are second order questions to me. The big question is

983
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 1: have we really understood what we are doing here? Both

984
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:40,320
Speaker 1: Francis actually says this is nature's revenge. I don't know.

985
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 1: I wouldn't quite put it that way, but I think

986
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:44,920
Speaker 1: it's nature's we are telling us. Look, you know you're

987
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 1: you're overlooking the risks of the way you are living.

988
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 1: M h. Thank you so much. I just want to

989
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 1: say everybody who's listening, like, get this book, read this book,

990
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 1: and and and I was going to say to you, you

991
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 1: you know, I was going to thank you for ending

992
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 1: your book like that, because it's empowering to know from

993
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 1: someone as small as you it is up to us

994
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 1: and that we can we can move the needle in

995
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 1: that in the direction that will either be in all

996
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 1: of our best interests or not. So you know what

997
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 1: puts my mind, it is to it personally, is that

998
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:27,280
Speaker 1: we are a constantly evolving species. Take everything away for

999
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:30,160
Speaker 1: a second. We're we have evolved to where we are

1000
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 1: over time, and we're not done. We're still evolving. So

1001
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:39,120
Speaker 1: we are always in transition, well always, or as doctor

1002
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:43,600
Speaker 1: trans says, we might be devolving. Yeah, but I don't

1003
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:49,040
Speaker 1: maybe emotionally, but I love that. I mean, for some

1004
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 1: reason that that that makes me feel just not not

1005
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 1: to be, not to all of a sudden be inactive

1006
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 1: and trying to create change. But I don't know, it

1007
00:58:57,880 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 1: makes me always feel a little bit better to think

1008
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 1: that we are just constantly in transition. We're not settling.

1009
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 1: And you know what far Red does say that the

1010
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:14,760
Speaker 1: realists are usually the idealists. That's exactly the point. That's

1011
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 1: exactly the point that the people who think big and

1012
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 1: dream they're the ones who actually are changing the world,

1013
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 1: and the world does change. I think you're exactly right.

1014
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:26,920
Speaker 1: It's like we are evolving, and how do we evolve?

1015
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:29,960
Speaker 1: We are We evolved by learning, and we have evolved

1016
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 1: a lot by cooperating. Like those are the ways that

1017
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:35,680
Speaker 1: things have you know, have moved forward. And I think

1018
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:39,880
Speaker 1: we will keep doing it, you know, and people don't

1019
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:42,920
Speaker 1: recognize how much we've already accomplished. Right, Yeah, that's one

1020
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:45,480
Speaker 1: of the things I make in that realist idealist chapter.

1021
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:48,480
Speaker 1: I mean, think of where we are compared to you know,

1022
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:51,280
Speaker 1: the middle of World War two, the middle of World

1023
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:53,520
Speaker 1: War One, in the middle of the religious wars in Europe,

1024
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 1: with the bubonic play killing half of the entire population

1025
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 1: of Europe. And here we have with a vaccine and

1026
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:02,680
Speaker 1: nine months. So you know, there's a lot of good

1027
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 1: news out there, but it shouldn't make us should make

1028
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 1: us want to run fast, not run scared, you know,

1029
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 1: we should recognize that we've got to get stuff right. Guys,

1030
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 1: I have to tell you, this was so much fun.

1031
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 1: Didn't know what to expect, and this is like one

1032
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:22,560
Speaker 1: of the most fascinating conversations I've had. So thank you,

1033
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 1: thank you. I'm so excited. Sibling Revelry is executive produced

1034
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:33,360
Speaker 1: by Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson. Producer is Alison Presnant,

1035
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 1: Editor is Josh Wendish. Music by Mark Hudson aka Uncle Mark.