Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim
Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Mankey listener discretion advised. Hi, this
Speaker 1: is Danish Wartz, host of the podcast. Just a little
Speaker 1: bit of housekeeping. If you want to support the show,
Speaker 1: you can do that on our Patreon. There's a link
Speaker 1: in the episode description. We also have merch and that
Speaker 1: link is in the episode description. Oh and I wrote
Speaker 1: I have two books, Anatomy a love story, and it's
Speaker 1: Equel Immortality, a love story. And if you like history
Speaker 1: or the characters that I've covered in this podcast, not characters,
Speaker 1: historical figures, then I think you would really like those books.
Speaker 1: Check them out. And that's about it. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for listening. Oh one more quick note before we begin.
Speaker 1: This episode centers around the Holocaust, and so it contains
Speaker 1: some very dark and disturbing themes in details. October sixteenth,
Speaker 1: nineteen forty three, was a cold, damp morning in Rome.
Speaker 1: It was a Saturday, the Sabbath, the holiest day of
Speaker 1: the Jewish week, but the twelve thousand Jewish families in
Speaker 1: the city hadn't gone to Rome's a great synagogue, the
Speaker 1: Tempio Majore, in a long time They had been living
Speaker 1: under Nazi occupation since September of that year. They had
Speaker 1: been subject to Italy's own racial laws for five years prior.
Speaker 1: Many Jews were living in the Jewish Ghetto. Perhaps a
Speaker 1: few brave souls had lit Sabbath candles at sundown the
Speaker 1: previous night, furtively hiding the small flicker of the flames
Speaker 1: from any passers by. Perhaps the wax of those candles
Speaker 1: still hung dried from the candlesticks. Suddenly there was a
Speaker 1: loud banging on the door, the curled hard fists of
Speaker 1: the Nazi occupiers. Some Jewish mothers hushed their babies, collected
Speaker 1: themselves and opened their doors. Some cowered or hid and
Speaker 1: saw their doors forced down. A number of Jewish men
Speaker 1: had already gone into hiding, suspecting that they might be targeted,
Speaker 1: so it was mostly women and children whom the Nazis
Speaker 1: rounded up that October day. The Roman Jews were marched
Speaker 1: through the streets, corralled by German speaking soldiers who didn't
Speaker 1: know Italian. One thousand, two hundred and fifty nine Jewish
Speaker 1: Italians wound up in a military compound, one that just
Speaker 1: happened to be located very near to the seat of
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church the Vatican City. Pope Pious the Twelfth
Speaker 1: found out within hours he was the leading moral figure
Speaker 1: of the Catholic world, and the Jewish people in his
Speaker 1: Italy were being rounded up essentially outside his window. He
Speaker 1: made a decision. He deputized his officials to help rescue
Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty people slated for a near certain
Speaker 1: brutal death at the concentration camp Auschwitz. He was a hero,
Speaker 1: a moral champion, and a defender of Jews during the Holocaust?
Speaker 1: Or was he? Certainly The heroic morality of Pope Pious
Speaker 1: the Twelfth during the Holocaust is the story that the
Speaker 1: Catholic Church and its defenders have told over the decades.
Speaker 1: It is the story that justifies calls for his canonization
Speaker 1: as a saint, But it isn't the whole story, because
Speaker 1: the subset of people that the Pope helped to save
Speaker 1: that October were carefully selected. Those rescued were those who
Speaker 1: were married to Christians or who had been baptized, who were,
Speaker 1: in the Church's eyes, not Jewish at all, but Catholic.
Speaker 1: One thousand and seven souls were not spared because they
Speaker 1: had the temerity to remain Jewish. Those one thousand and
Speaker 1: seven knew their home city well, they knew they were
Speaker 1: being detained so near the Vatican, they must have hoped
Speaker 1: that the Pope would in proceed to save them, they
Speaker 1: too were people of Rome. Instead, they were deported to Auschwitz.
Speaker 1: Of those one thousand and seven Jews, only sixteen survived.
Speaker 1: Pope Pious the Twelfth never said a word condemning the roundup.
Speaker 1: As six million Jewish people were murdered in Europe over
Speaker 1: the course of the Holocaust, Pope Pious the Twelfth never
Speaker 1: said a word explicitly defending them. He never said a
Speaker 1: word explicitly condemning Hitler, or Nazism or anti Semitism. He
Speaker 1: gave one vague Christmas address that didn't specify any particular
Speaker 1: victims in its general call to the moral duties of mankind.
Speaker 1: He was the moral center of Catholicism, the man who
Speaker 1: should have upheld precious God given life with the utmost clarity.
Speaker 1: So why didn't he. It's a question that has haunted historians, Catholics, Jews,
Speaker 1: and students of humanity for eighty years. It is a
Speaker 1: charged question in a passionate debate, a debate whose answer
Speaker 1: has changed over time, especially with the opening of previously
Speaker 1: sealed Vatican documents in twenty twenty. Was the Pope during
Speaker 1: the Holocaust a hero, if a quiet one, working tirelessly
Speaker 1: behind the scenes to bring peace and protect human life.
Speaker 1: Did he do all he could to protect imprisoned Catholic priests,
Speaker 1: to allow his wide network of Catholic clergy and laypeople
Speaker 1: to help rescue their Jewish neighbors, to ensure the ultimate
Speaker 1: survival of the Catholic Church? Or was Pope Pious the
Speaker 1: twelfth passive observer who chose not to use his power,
Speaker 1: his voice, or his moral authority to stop the advance
Speaker 1: of Nazism, the imprisonment of Catholic popes, or the slaughter
Speaker 1: of six million Jews sixty three percent of the Jewish
Speaker 1: population of Europe. Is he rightly known to some by
Speaker 1: the nickname he's been given Hitler's Pope. I'm Dana Schwartz,
Speaker 1: and this is noble blood. The story of the relationship
Speaker 1: between Jews and the papacy begins long before Hitler's occupying
Speaker 1: forces came to Rome. Four hundred years prior to the
Speaker 1: events of nineteen forty three. Pope Paul the Fourth decreed
Speaker 1: that the Jews of Rome were to be locked inside
Speaker 1: their ghetto every night. In fact, the word ghetto is Italian.
Speaker 1: It refers to the area in Venice in which Venetian
Speaker 1: Jews life was restricted. Over the centuries, the Vatican and
Speaker 1: Catholic clergy played a role in contributing to anti Semitic
Speaker 1: sentiment by describing Jews as dangerous to Christianity and Christendom.
Speaker 1: By nineteen thirty three, the Jewish population of Italy numbered
Speaker 1: between forty and fifty thousand, and Pope Pious the Eleventh,
Speaker 1: the guy before our Guy, was Pope. As Italy passed
Speaker 1: its racial laws in nineteen thirty eight, stripping Italian Jews
Speaker 1: of civil rights, Pope Pious the Eleventh clearly stated his
Speaker 1: opposition to anti Semitic racism. He did so two visitors
Speaker 1: in his Christmas address to the public, even to Italy's
Speaker 1: fascist Prime Minister Benito Mussolini. When Hitler visited Rome in
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty eight, Pious the Eleventh left the Vatican so
Speaker 1: Hitler couldn't visit up until his dying day. His dying moment,
Speaker 1: Pious the Eleventh was working to publish a document known
Speaker 1: as the LeFarge Encyclical, which denounced anti Semitism in forthright terms.
Speaker 1: To the day of his death, he was writing a
Speaker 1: speech he planned to deliver against fascism. In fiction, a
Speaker 1: foil is a character whose circumstances are similar to our protagonists,
Speaker 1: but who behaves differently. The purpose of a literary foil
Speaker 1: is to show that there are other options for how
Speaker 1: our main character might act. History could not have given
Speaker 1: us a better foil for Pope Pious the twelfth than
Speaker 1: his predecessor, Pious the Eleventh, proved that a Pope of
Speaker 1: Rome could have chosen to speak out clearly against Nazis.
Speaker 1: There is a question would Pious the twelfth speaking out
Speaker 1: have made things worse for both Jews and Catholics, two
Speaker 1: groups who were prosecuted under the Nazi regime, although obviously
Speaker 1: not with equal vigor. If Pious the eleventh had continued
Speaker 1: speaking out, would he have created a rift with Mussolini
Speaker 1: or with Hitler that would have led to even worse
Speaker 1: mistreatment for the Jews and a target on the heads
Speaker 1: of Catholics. That certainly what the next Pope's defenders would
Speaker 1: have us believe. Pious the Eleventh died in February nineteen
Speaker 1: thirty nine, before he could deliver his speech against Fascist. Incidentally,
Speaker 1: the Pope's doctor was the father of Mussolini's mistress, Clara,
Speaker 1: who was so devoted to Mussolini that she would later
Speaker 1: be executed at his side and hanged upside down from
Speaker 1: a gas station beside his corpse. Though it probably wasn't
Speaker 1: anything the doctor did, the Pope's death could not have
Speaker 1: been more conveniently timed for Mussolini. The man who succeeded
Speaker 1: the Pope was Eugenio Pachelli, who became Pope Pious the
Speaker 1: Twelfth on March second, nineteen thirty nine, the day of
Speaker 1: his sixty third birthday. He was a thin man with
Speaker 1: round glasses, known to have a canary fluttering off and
Speaker 1: at his fingertips, but the papal affinity for small winged
Speaker 1: things did not mean a lightness of spirit. One of
Speaker 1: his first decisions as Pope was to ensure the destruction
Speaker 1: of the evidence of his predecessor's anti fascist speech. It
Speaker 1: was a telling choice, foreshadowing his choices throughout the war
Speaker 1: not to upset Mussolini or Hitler. With help from the
Speaker 1: recently unsealed Vatican archives, historian David Kurtzer catalogs the deeds
Speaker 1: that seem inexplicable for the Holy See or inexcusable. The
Speaker 1: Pope congratulated Hitler on surviving an assassination attempt. He used
Speaker 1: funds from the American United Jewish Appeal to only help
Speaker 1: Jews that had taken baptism as Catholics. He said nothing
Speaker 1: against the Italian racial laws. He even failed to speak
Speaker 1: out on behalf of Catholics. He didn't condemn Nazi action
Speaker 1: in Poland, where more than half of the priests in
Speaker 1: the West wound up in concentration camps. Many parties, Catholic
Speaker 1: and Jewish alike, asked the Pope to speak out. They
Speaker 1: believed his words would be a powerful blow against anti
Speaker 1: Jewish Nazism, and the Pope knew what Nazism looked like
Speaker 1: in practice. It's sickening to recall what he didn't condemn.
Speaker 1: In November nineteen forty one, Italian Catholic Father Scavizi met
Speaker 1: with the Pope and described what he had seen in Ukraine,
Speaker 1: including quote the massacre of hundreds of Jews forced first
Speaker 1: to dig a ditch, then machine gunned and throne inside.
Speaker 1: In December nineteen forty two, the British envoy gave the
Speaker 1: Pope a report that said, quote, we are witnessing the
Speaker 1: deliberate massacre of a nation. The envoy described quote the
Speaker 1: unspeakable cruelty involved in Hitler's war of Annihilation against the
Speaker 1: jew Jews of Europe. Entire communities in Poland were massacred
Speaker 1: to a man to make the arrangements for wholesale extermination
Speaker 1: end quote. In September nineteen forty two, the American envoy
Speaker 1: told the Pope that quote all Jews, irrespective of age
Speaker 1: or sex, are being removed from the Warsaw ghetto in
Speaker 1: groups and shot. Their corpses are utilized for making fats,
Speaker 1: and their bones for the manufacture of fertilizer end quote.
Speaker 1: This was no small sin. By the early nineteen forties,
Speaker 1: the Pope was well informed nations around the world had
Speaker 1: begun denouncing the persecution of the Jewish people, and still
Speaker 1: the Pope did not explicitly speak out. Finally, it was
Speaker 1: Christmas nineteen forty two, cold wind blue through the Italian
Speaker 1: air outside. The war in Europe was raging on the
Speaker 1: camp's puffed smoke of burning bodies into the air and
Speaker 1: Pope Pius the twelfth had the ear of the world.
Speaker 1: He was to give a wartime radio address. He had
Speaker 1: the chance, he knew, to accept the mantle that he
Speaker 1: was being asked to take on by so many, to
Speaker 1: take a stand, to speak on behalf of God in
Speaker 1: favor of the souls of Catholics and non Catholics alike.
Speaker 1: He also risked provoking the anger of the fascists. If
Speaker 1: he chose two explicit attack, it could mean retaliation, an
Speaker 1: even greater bloodbath against the most vulnerable, a target on
Speaker 1: the backs of Catholics in Germany and elsewhere, and even
Speaker 1: more brutality against the Jewish people. And so the Pope
Speaker 1: chose his words carefully. He included one line that might
Speaker 1: have alluded to the extermination of the Jews. At the time,
Speaker 1: his words were analyzed by governments and editors and intelligence
Speaker 1: officers on all sides, heard by the hopeful and the
Speaker 1: hateful alike. In the six decades since, his words have
Speaker 1: been analyzed by historians, the faithful and the lapsed. Listener,
Speaker 1: See what you think here? Did the Pope say enough?
Speaker 1: Pious was speaking of the vow to restore civil society.
Speaker 1: What he said translated into English was quote Mankind owes
Speaker 1: that vow to the hundreds of thousands of persons who,
Speaker 1: without any fault on their part, sometimes only because of
Speaker 1: their nationality or race, have been consigned to death or
Speaker 1: to a slow decline. A second translation, option humanity owes
Speaker 1: this vow the vow to restore civil society to hundreds
Speaker 1: of thousands of people who, through no fault of their own,
Speaker 1: sometimes only by reason of their nationality or race, are
Speaker 1: marked down for death or gradual extinction. I'll be honest,
Speaker 1: given the extremity and specific threat of the situation, that
Speaker 1: line sounds vague to me. Which persons, which nationality and race?
Speaker 1: Did he mean? So many people were dying as World
Speaker 1: War two raged, It seems a bit of a stretch
Speaker 1: to assume that at these generic terms specifically referred to
Speaker 1: Jewish victims of the Holocaust. But I'm not living in
Speaker 1: the context of the veiled language of war. And though
Speaker 1: that's the only line from the twenty six page speech
Speaker 1: that might make reference to the Nazis' final solution, exerpting
Speaker 1: the line all by itself actually strips away its rhetorical character.
Speaker 1: In the speech, the Pope used repetition in a linguistically
Speaker 1: moving way to lead up to that statement. This speech
Speaker 1: has the rhetorical tenor of a sermon. It used poetic words,
Speaker 1: unusual usages, lyrical turns of phrase. It's stirring, it's uplifting.
Speaker 1: Was it enough well? The Nazi Reich Central Security Office
Speaker 1: viewed the line as a clear rebuke. They determined that
Speaker 1: the Pope had clearly spoken for the Jews, who were,
Speaker 1: obviously the quote, persons consigned to death as a result
Speaker 1: of their race. The New York Times essentially agreed, though
Speaker 1: with a more positive spin than the Nazis, referring to
Speaker 1: the speech as quote a lonely voice crying out of
Speaker 1: the silence of a continent. The Pope himself seemed to
Speaker 1: believe that he had plainly condemned the Germans, but Mussolini
Speaker 1: thought the speech was pure platitude. The Polish ambassador thought
Speaker 1: its abstraction went right over the average Catholic's head. Whatever
Speaker 1: our interpretation, what certain is that Pious did not name
Speaker 1: the Nazis as the oppressors, nor the Jews as the oppressed.
Speaker 1: He never would this speech. These generalities were the most
Speaker 1: that the Holy See of Catholicism offered to the listening
Speaker 1: world that Christmas as Catholics marked the birth of the Savior,
Speaker 1: and the gas chambers churned on. Ten months later, the
Speaker 1: roundup of one thousand, two hundred and fifty nine of
Speaker 1: Rome's Jews commenced on the cold, damp morning of October sixteenth,
Speaker 1: nineteen forty three. Upon hearing the news that day, I
Speaker 1: imagine the Pope's heart must have sank. By this time,
Speaker 1: Mussolini had been deposed, a new Italian government had surrendered
Speaker 1: to the Allies and was occupied by Germany, and Mussolini
Speaker 1: had a competing government in the north. The Pope felt
Speaker 1: a real and imminent threat from all sides. His solemn
Speaker 1: duty was to protect the Catholic Church, so he did
Speaker 1: what he felt he could. As Jews and Catholics alike
Speaker 1: begged him to save the detained, the Vatican instructed the
Speaker 1: German ambassador to find and free only the two hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty among the captured who had been baptized Catholic
Speaker 1: or were married to Christians. Of course, the selection did
Speaker 1: not correctly identify everyone. A few baptized Catholics were caught
Speaker 1: in the crosshairs, gassed and then burned at Auschwitz. Even then,
Speaker 1: the most that came from the Vatican was a brief
Speaker 1: and once more completely non specific statement in the Vatican
Speaker 1: newspaper that the Pope cared for all people, regardless of
Speaker 1: religion and race. But what's most damning to me is
Speaker 1: not the lack of public condemnation from the Pope. It
Speaker 1: is the private convers stations he had with the British
Speaker 1: and American ambassadors That very day, October sixteenth and seventeenth.
Speaker 1: He met with the ambassadors, knowing that one thousand people
Speaker 1: sat near by waiting their deaths for the crime of
Speaker 1: nothing more than being Jewish. He knew that he would
Speaker 1: not intervene to halt their deportation to the gas chambers.
Speaker 1: And the Pope turned to the ambassadors and said that
Speaker 1: when it came to the Germans in his city, he
Speaker 1: quote had no grounds for a complaint. World War Two
Speaker 1: ended in nineteen forty five. Nine point five million Jews
Speaker 1: had lived in Europe before the war, three point five
Speaker 1: million survived. Pope Pious served for another thirteen years. After
Speaker 1: the war. He spoke vocally about his concerns about the
Speaker 1: spread of Soviet Communism. He died on October ninth, nineteen
Speaker 1: fifty eight, at the age of eighty two. In the
Speaker 1: years since his death, historians have furiously debated whether or
Speaker 1: not he performed virtuously during the Holocaust. His defenders point
Speaker 1: out that although he did not direct Catholic priests or
Speaker 1: lay people to save their Jewish neighbors, he allowed them
Speaker 1: to do so, and plenty did. He permitted the use
Speaker 1: of church properties for this purpose. Before the German occupation,
Speaker 1: Italian Jews were largely not deported. His steadfast view that
Speaker 1: baptized Jews were indeed Catholics was a rebuke to the
Speaker 1: Nazi racial laws that viewed Jewishness as fundament mentally racial
Speaker 1: and ethnic. When he died, Goldmyer, future Prime Minister of Israel,
Speaker 1: said that he was a quote voice raised for the victims,
Speaker 1: speaking out on the great moral truths end quote. But
Speaker 1: he's also been referred to as Hitler's Pope. Nothing is simple.
Speaker 1: I can imagine Pious as a man of God genuinely
Speaker 1: anguished by reports of unfathomable suffering, genuinely sickened about what
Speaker 1: to do. I can imagine a pope willing to speak
Speaker 1: softly in the face of immense moral wrong in order
Speaker 1: to ensure the survival of something greater than himself, the
Speaker 1: Catholic Church. Perhaps he was a pope who genuinely believed
Speaker 1: that speaking out would only antagonize Hitler and caused the
Speaker 1: Jewish people even more suffering. We can see that pope clearly.
Speaker 1: We can even maybe imagine the gleam of pain in
Speaker 1: his eyes when he privately told Father SKEAVIZI that he
Speaker 1: thought of quote, hurling excommunications at Nazism, of denouncing the
Speaker 1: beastiality of the extermination of the Jews to the civilized world.
Speaker 1: After many tears and prayers, I came to the conclusion
Speaker 1: that a protest from me would arouse the most ferocious
Speaker 1: anger against the Jews and multiply acts of cruelty because
Speaker 1: they are undefended. Perhaps my solemn protest would win me
Speaker 1: some praise from the civilized world, but would bring down
Speaker 1: on the poor Jews an even more implacable persecution and quote,
Speaker 1: I can absolutely have empathy for and genuinely trying to
Speaker 1: reduce suffering in a world gone mad, trying not to
Speaker 1: speak what is popular, nor what is even right, but
Speaker 1: rather what would provoke the fewest and save the most,
Speaker 1: and in some ways I can understand. Anyone who's ever
Speaker 1: tiptoed around the edges of the room so as not
Speaker 1: to provoke a bully can understand perhaps you've even tiptoed
Speaker 1: toward the victim when you want to help. But maybe Hitler, Mussolini,
Speaker 1: and the anti Jewish fascists were more like a black bear.
Speaker 1: And when a black bear attacks, what you do is
Speaker 1: get bigger than them, you show strength. We cannot know
Speaker 1: what would have happened if the Pope had spoken out.
Speaker 1: Maybe he really would have provoked Hitler to even harsher atrocity.
Speaker 1: But surely many henchmen of Nazism viewed themselves as obedient Catholics.
Speaker 1: After all, they weren't doing anything that the Pope had
Speaker 1: unequivocally denounced. It's possible they would have thought twice if
Speaker 1: their actions were an obvious opposition to papal doctrine, if
Speaker 1: the Pope had told his Catholics explicitly that it was
Speaker 1: against their religion against God to perform Hitler's work, that
Speaker 1: a murderer of Jews could not be a good Catholic.
Speaker 1: In the end, I agree with historian Kevin Madigan, who
Speaker 1: says that Pious was quote a quintessential politician or perhaps
Speaker 1: diplomat at a time when the world and especially the
Speaker 1: Jews of Europe needed a prophet end quote. In nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety eight, the Church under Pope John Paul the Second
Speaker 1: published We Remember a reflection on the Show, which did
Speaker 1: not address Pious the Twelfth Silence. In twenty nineteen, Pope
Speaker 1: Francis famously said that the Church is not afraid of history.
Speaker 1: He opened Pious the Twelfth archive the following year. The
Speaker 1: work of historians in combing through the trove is ongoing,
Speaker 1: and the question of Pious the Twelfth elevation to sainthood
Speaker 1: still remains. That's the story of Pope Pious the Twelfth
Speaker 1: during the Holocaust. But keep listening after a brief sponsor break,
Speaker 1: to hear from wiser perspectives than my own. When it
Speaker 1: comes to Silence and the Holocaust, there is no one
Speaker 1: who spoke with more lucidity than Ellie Vizelle. He was
Speaker 1: the author of the book Night, perhaps the world's most
Speaker 1: famous book about the Holocaust after the Diary of Anne
Speaker 1: Frank and certainly the most famous account of the camps themselves.
Speaker 1: In his Noble Peace Prize speech in nineteen eighty six,
Speaker 1: he had some thoughts on silence quote the world did
Speaker 1: know and remained silent. Silence encourages the tormentor never the
Speaker 1: tormented end quote. High as the twelfth surely would not
Speaker 1: have thought of himself as encouraging the tormentor. It was
Speaker 1: clearly not his goal. He thought of himself as a
Speaker 1: man of God. But there is a Jewish prayer which
Speaker 1: begins with the lines Eternal God, open my lips. The
Speaker 1: Pope never opened his lips to speak plainly enough. Noble
Speaker 1: Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild
Speaker 1: from Aaron Mankey. Noble Blood is created and hosted by
Speaker 1: me Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and researching by Hannah Johnston,
Speaker 1: hannah's Wick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender, and Laurie Goodman. The
Speaker 1: show is edited and produced by Naimi Griffin and rema
Speaker 1: Il Kali, with supervising producer Josh Faine and executive producers
Speaker 1: Aaron Manky, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts
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