1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Mankey listener discretion advised. Hi, this 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: is Danish Wartz, host of the podcast. Just a little 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: bit of housekeeping. If you want to support the show, 5 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,920 Speaker 1: you can do that on our Patreon. There's a link 6 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: in the episode description. We also have merch and that 7 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: link is in the episode description. Oh and I wrote 8 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: I have two books, Anatomy a love story, and it's 9 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: Equel Immortality, a love story. And if you like history 10 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: or the characters that I've covered in this podcast, not characters, 11 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: historical figures, then I think you would really like those books. 12 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: Check them out. And that's about it. Thank you so 13 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: much for listening. Oh one more quick note before we begin. 14 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: This episode centers around the Holocaust, and so it contains 15 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:12,759 Speaker 1: some very dark and disturbing themes in details. October sixteenth, 16 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: nineteen forty three, was a cold, damp morning in Rome. 17 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: It was a Saturday, the Sabbath, the holiest day of 18 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: the Jewish week, but the twelve thousand Jewish families in 19 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: the city hadn't gone to Rome's a great synagogue, the 20 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: Tempio Majore, in a long time They had been living 21 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: under Nazi occupation since September of that year. They had 22 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: been subject to Italy's own racial laws for five years prior. 23 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: Many Jews were living in the Jewish Ghetto. Perhaps a 24 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: few brave souls had lit Sabbath candles at sundown the 25 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: previous night, furtively hiding the small flicker of the flames 26 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: from any passers by. Perhaps the wax of those candles 27 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: still hung dried from the candlesticks. Suddenly there was a 28 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: loud banging on the door, the curled hard fists of 29 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: the Nazi occupiers. Some Jewish mothers hushed their babies, collected 30 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: themselves and opened their doors. Some cowered or hid and 31 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: saw their doors forced down. A number of Jewish men 32 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: had already gone into hiding, suspecting that they might be targeted, 33 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 1: so it was mostly women and children whom the Nazis 34 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 1: rounded up that October day. The Roman Jews were marched 35 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: through the streets, corralled by German speaking soldiers who didn't 36 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 1: know Italian. One thousand, two hundred and fifty nine Jewish 37 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 1: Italians wound up in a military compound, one that just 38 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: happened to be located very near to the seat of 39 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church the Vatican City. Pope Pious the Twelfth 40 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: found out within hours he was the leading moral figure 41 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: of the Catholic world, and the Jewish people in his 42 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: Italy were being rounded up essentially outside his window. He 43 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: made a decision. He deputized his officials to help rescue 44 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty people slated for a near certain 45 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: brutal death at the concentration camp Auschwitz. He was a hero, 46 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: a moral champion, and a defender of Jews during the Holocaust? 47 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: Or was he? Certainly The heroic morality of Pope Pious 48 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 1: the Twelfth during the Holocaust is the story that the 49 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: Catholic Church and its defenders have told over the decades. 50 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: It is the story that justifies calls for his canonization 51 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: as a saint, But it isn't the whole story, because 52 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: the subset of people that the Pope helped to save 53 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: that October were carefully selected. Those rescued were those who 54 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: were married to Christians or who had been baptized, who were, 55 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: in the Church's eyes, not Jewish at all, but Catholic. 56 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:43,280 Speaker 1: One thousand and seven souls were not spared because they 57 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: had the temerity to remain Jewish. Those one thousand and 58 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: seven knew their home city well, they knew they were 59 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 1: being detained so near the Vatican, they must have hoped 60 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 1: that the Pope would in proceed to save them, they 61 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: too were people of Rome. Instead, they were deported to Auschwitz. 62 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 1: Of those one thousand and seven Jews, only sixteen survived. 63 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:21,359 Speaker 1: Pope Pious the Twelfth never said a word condemning the roundup. 64 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: As six million Jewish people were murdered in Europe over 65 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 1: the course of the Holocaust, Pope Pious the Twelfth never 66 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: said a word explicitly defending them. He never said a 67 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 1: word explicitly condemning Hitler, or Nazism or anti Semitism. He 68 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: gave one vague Christmas address that didn't specify any particular 69 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: victims in its general call to the moral duties of mankind. 70 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: He was the moral center of Catholicism, the man who 71 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: should have upheld precious God given life with the utmost clarity. 72 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: So why didn't he. It's a question that has haunted historians, Catholics, Jews, 73 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: and students of humanity for eighty years. It is a 74 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: charged question in a passionate debate, a debate whose answer 75 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:27,160 Speaker 1: has changed over time, especially with the opening of previously 76 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: sealed Vatican documents in twenty twenty. Was the Pope during 77 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: the Holocaust a hero, if a quiet one, working tirelessly 78 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 1: behind the scenes to bring peace and protect human life. 79 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: Did he do all he could to protect imprisoned Catholic priests, 80 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 1: to allow his wide network of Catholic clergy and laypeople 81 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 1: to help rescue their Jewish neighbors, to ensure the ultimate 82 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: survival of the Catholic Church? Or was Pope Pious the 83 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: twelfth passive observer who chose not to use his power, 84 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 1: his voice, or his moral authority to stop the advance 85 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: of Nazism, the imprisonment of Catholic popes, or the slaughter 86 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: of six million Jews sixty three percent of the Jewish 87 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: population of Europe. Is he rightly known to some by 88 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: the nickname he's been given Hitler's Pope. I'm Dana Schwartz, 89 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: and this is noble blood. The story of the relationship 90 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: between Jews and the papacy begins long before Hitler's occupying 91 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: forces came to Rome. Four hundred years prior to the 92 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: events of nineteen forty three. Pope Paul the Fourth decreed 93 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: that the Jews of Rome were to be locked inside 94 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: their ghetto every night. In fact, the word ghetto is Italian. 95 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: It refers to the area in Venice in which Venetian 96 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: Jews life was restricted. Over the centuries, the Vatican and 97 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: Catholic clergy played a role in contributing to anti Semitic 98 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: sentiment by describing Jews as dangerous to Christianity and Christendom. 99 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: By nineteen thirty three, the Jewish population of Italy numbered 100 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: between forty and fifty thousand, and Pope Pious the Eleventh, 101 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: the guy before our Guy, was Pope. As Italy passed 102 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: its racial laws in nineteen thirty eight, stripping Italian Jews 103 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: of civil rights, Pope Pious the Eleventh clearly stated his 104 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: opposition to anti Semitic racism. He did so two visitors 105 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: in his Christmas address to the public, even to Italy's 106 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: fascist Prime Minister Benito Mussolini. When Hitler visited Rome in 107 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty eight, Pious the Eleventh left the Vatican so 108 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:12,559 Speaker 1: Hitler couldn't visit up until his dying day. His dying moment, 109 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,079 Speaker 1: Pious the Eleventh was working to publish a document known 110 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 1: as the LeFarge Encyclical, which denounced anti Semitism in forthright terms. 111 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 1: To the day of his death, he was writing a 112 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: speech he planned to deliver against fascism. In fiction, a 113 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: foil is a character whose circumstances are similar to our protagonists, 114 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: but who behaves differently. The purpose of a literary foil 115 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: is to show that there are other options for how 116 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: our main character might act. History could not have given 117 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: us a better foil for Pope Pious the twelfth than 118 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: his predecessor, Pious the Eleventh, proved that a Pope of 119 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: Rome could have chosen to speak out clearly against Nazis. 120 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: There is a question would Pious the twelfth speaking out 121 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: have made things worse for both Jews and Catholics, two 122 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 1: groups who were prosecuted under the Nazi regime, although obviously 123 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:27,079 Speaker 1: not with equal vigor. If Pious the eleventh had continued 124 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: speaking out, would he have created a rift with Mussolini 125 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: or with Hitler that would have led to even worse 126 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: mistreatment for the Jews and a target on the heads 127 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: of Catholics. That certainly what the next Pope's defenders would 128 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: have us believe. Pious the Eleventh died in February nineteen 129 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: thirty nine, before he could deliver his speech against Fascist. Incidentally, 130 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: the Pope's doctor was the father of Mussolini's mistress, Clara, 131 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: who was so devoted to Mussolini that she would later 132 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 1: be executed at his side and hanged upside down from 133 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:19,439 Speaker 1: a gas station beside his corpse. Though it probably wasn't 134 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: anything the doctor did, the Pope's death could not have 135 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 1: been more conveniently timed for Mussolini. The man who succeeded 136 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: the Pope was Eugenio Pachelli, who became Pope Pious the 137 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: Twelfth on March second, nineteen thirty nine, the day of 138 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:41,719 Speaker 1: his sixty third birthday. He was a thin man with 139 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,959 Speaker 1: round glasses, known to have a canary fluttering off and 140 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: at his fingertips, but the papal affinity for small winged 141 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: things did not mean a lightness of spirit. One of 142 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 1: his first decisions as Pope was to ensure the destruction 143 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: of the evidence of his predecessor's anti fascist speech. It 144 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: was a telling choice, foreshadowing his choices throughout the war 145 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: not to upset Mussolini or Hitler. With help from the 146 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: recently unsealed Vatican archives, historian David Kurtzer catalogs the deeds 147 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:29,199 Speaker 1: that seem inexplicable for the Holy See or inexcusable. The 148 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: Pope congratulated Hitler on surviving an assassination attempt. He used 149 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: funds from the American United Jewish Appeal to only help 150 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: Jews that had taken baptism as Catholics. He said nothing 151 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: against the Italian racial laws. He even failed to speak 152 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,839 Speaker 1: out on behalf of Catholics. He didn't condemn Nazi action 153 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: in Poland, where more than half of the priests in 154 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: the West wound up in concentration camps. Many parties, Catholic 155 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: and Jewish alike, asked the Pope to speak out. They 156 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: believed his words would be a powerful blow against anti 157 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: Jewish Nazism, and the Pope knew what Nazism looked like 158 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 1: in practice. It's sickening to recall what he didn't condemn. 159 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 1: In November nineteen forty one, Italian Catholic Father Scavizi met 160 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: with the Pope and described what he had seen in Ukraine, 161 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: including quote the massacre of hundreds of Jews forced first 162 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: to dig a ditch, then machine gunned and throne inside. 163 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: In December nineteen forty two, the British envoy gave the 164 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: Pope a report that said, quote, we are witnessing the 165 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 1: deliberate massacre of a nation. The envoy described quote the 166 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: unspeakable cruelty involved in Hitler's war of Annihilation against the 167 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: jew Jews of Europe. Entire communities in Poland were massacred 168 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: to a man to make the arrangements for wholesale extermination 169 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 1: end quote. In September nineteen forty two, the American envoy 170 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: told the Pope that quote all Jews, irrespective of age 171 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: or sex, are being removed from the Warsaw ghetto in 172 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: groups and shot. Their corpses are utilized for making fats, 173 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: and their bones for the manufacture of fertilizer end quote. 174 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: This was no small sin. By the early nineteen forties, 175 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: the Pope was well informed nations around the world had 176 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: begun denouncing the persecution of the Jewish people, and still 177 00:14:52,840 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: the Pope did not explicitly speak out. Finally, it was 178 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: Christmas nineteen forty two, cold wind blue through the Italian 179 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: air outside. The war in Europe was raging on the 180 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: camp's puffed smoke of burning bodies into the air and 181 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: Pope Pius the twelfth had the ear of the world. 182 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: He was to give a wartime radio address. He had 183 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: the chance, he knew, to accept the mantle that he 184 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: was being asked to take on by so many, to 185 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: take a stand, to speak on behalf of God in 186 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: favor of the souls of Catholics and non Catholics alike. 187 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: He also risked provoking the anger of the fascists. If 188 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: he chose two explicit attack, it could mean retaliation, an 189 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: even greater bloodbath against the most vulnerable, a target on 190 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: the backs of Catholics in Germany and elsewhere, and even 191 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: more brutality against the Jewish people. And so the Pope 192 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: chose his words carefully. He included one line that might 193 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: have alluded to the extermination of the Jews. At the time, 194 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: his words were analyzed by governments and editors and intelligence 195 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: officers on all sides, heard by the hopeful and the 196 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: hateful alike. In the six decades since, his words have 197 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: been analyzed by historians, the faithful and the lapsed. Listener, 198 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: See what you think here? Did the Pope say enough? 199 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: Pious was speaking of the vow to restore civil society. 200 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: What he said translated into English was quote Mankind owes 201 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: that vow to the hundreds of thousands of persons who, 202 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: without any fault on their part, sometimes only because of 203 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: their nationality or race, have been consigned to death or 204 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 1: to a slow decline. A second translation, option humanity owes 205 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: this vow the vow to restore civil society to hundreds 206 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: of thousands of people who, through no fault of their own, 207 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: sometimes only by reason of their nationality or race, are 208 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: marked down for death or gradual extinction. I'll be honest, 209 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: given the extremity and specific threat of the situation, that 210 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: line sounds vague to me. Which persons, which nationality and race? 211 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: Did he mean? So many people were dying as World 212 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: War two raged, It seems a bit of a stretch 213 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 1: to assume that at these generic terms specifically referred to 214 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: Jewish victims of the Holocaust. But I'm not living in 215 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: the context of the veiled language of war. And though 216 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: that's the only line from the twenty six page speech 217 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 1: that might make reference to the Nazis' final solution, exerpting 218 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: the line all by itself actually strips away its rhetorical character. 219 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: In the speech, the Pope used repetition in a linguistically 220 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: moving way to lead up to that statement. This speech 221 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: has the rhetorical tenor of a sermon. It used poetic words, 222 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: unusual usages, lyrical turns of phrase. It's stirring, it's uplifting. 223 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:57,120 Speaker 1: Was it enough well? The Nazi Reich Central Security Office 224 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: viewed the line as a clear rebuke. They determined that 225 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: the Pope had clearly spoken for the Jews, who were, 226 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: obviously the quote, persons consigned to death as a result 227 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: of their race. The New York Times essentially agreed, though 228 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:18,120 Speaker 1: with a more positive spin than the Nazis, referring to 229 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 1: the speech as quote a lonely voice crying out of 230 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: the silence of a continent. The Pope himself seemed to 231 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: believe that he had plainly condemned the Germans, but Mussolini 232 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 1: thought the speech was pure platitude. The Polish ambassador thought 233 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: its abstraction went right over the average Catholic's head. Whatever 234 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 1: our interpretation, what certain is that Pious did not name 235 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:53,679 Speaker 1: the Nazis as the oppressors, nor the Jews as the oppressed. 236 00:19:54,560 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: He never would this speech. These generalities were the most 237 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 1: that the Holy See of Catholicism offered to the listening 238 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 1: world that Christmas as Catholics marked the birth of the Savior, 239 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: and the gas chambers churned on. Ten months later, the 240 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 1: roundup of one thousand, two hundred and fifty nine of 241 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: Rome's Jews commenced on the cold, damp morning of October sixteenth, 242 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: nineteen forty three. Upon hearing the news that day, I 243 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: imagine the Pope's heart must have sank. By this time, 244 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 1: Mussolini had been deposed, a new Italian government had surrendered 245 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: to the Allies and was occupied by Germany, and Mussolini 246 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,919 Speaker 1: had a competing government in the north. The Pope felt 247 00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: a real and imminent threat from all sides. His solemn 248 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,400 Speaker 1: duty was to protect the Catholic Church, so he did 249 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 1: what he felt he could. As Jews and Catholics alike 250 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: begged him to save the detained, the Vatican instructed the 251 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: German ambassador to find and free only the two hundred 252 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 1: and fifty among the captured who had been baptized Catholic 253 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 1: or were married to Christians. Of course, the selection did 254 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: not correctly identify everyone. A few baptized Catholics were caught 255 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: in the crosshairs, gassed and then burned at Auschwitz. Even then, 256 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 1: the most that came from the Vatican was a brief 257 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: and once more completely non specific statement in the Vatican 258 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: newspaper that the Pope cared for all people, regardless of 259 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: religion and race. But what's most damning to me is 260 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: not the lack of public condemnation from the Pope. It 261 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 1: is the private convers stations he had with the British 262 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: and American ambassadors That very day, October sixteenth and seventeenth. 263 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: He met with the ambassadors, knowing that one thousand people 264 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 1: sat near by waiting their deaths for the crime of 265 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: nothing more than being Jewish. He knew that he would 266 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: not intervene to halt their deportation to the gas chambers. 267 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: And the Pope turned to the ambassadors and said that 268 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: when it came to the Germans in his city, he 269 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 1: quote had no grounds for a complaint. World War Two 270 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: ended in nineteen forty five. Nine point five million Jews 271 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 1: had lived in Europe before the war, three point five 272 00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: million survived. Pope Pious served for another thirteen years. After 273 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 1: the war. He spoke vocally about his concerns about the 274 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: spread of Soviet Communism. He died on October ninth, nineteen 275 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: fifty eight, at the age of eighty two. In the 276 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 1: years since his death, historians have furiously debated whether or 277 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 1: not he performed virtuously during the Holocaust. His defenders point 278 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: out that although he did not direct Catholic priests or 279 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: lay people to save their Jewish neighbors, he allowed them 280 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: to do so, and plenty did. He permitted the use 281 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: of church properties for this purpose. Before the German occupation, 282 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: Italian Jews were largely not deported. His steadfast view that 283 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: baptized Jews were indeed Catholics was a rebuke to the 284 00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: Nazi racial laws that viewed Jewishness as fundament mentally racial 285 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: and ethnic. When he died, Goldmyer, future Prime Minister of Israel, 286 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: said that he was a quote voice raised for the victims, 287 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: speaking out on the great moral truths end quote. But 288 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: he's also been referred to as Hitler's Pope. Nothing is simple. 289 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: I can imagine Pious as a man of God genuinely 290 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: anguished by reports of unfathomable suffering, genuinely sickened about what 291 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:38,479 Speaker 1: to do. I can imagine a pope willing to speak 292 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: softly in the face of immense moral wrong in order 293 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: to ensure the survival of something greater than himself, the 294 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: Catholic Church. Perhaps he was a pope who genuinely believed 295 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: that speaking out would only antagonize Hitler and caused the 296 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: Jewish people even more suffering. We can see that pope clearly. 297 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 1: We can even maybe imagine the gleam of pain in 298 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: his eyes when he privately told Father SKEAVIZI that he 299 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 1: thought of quote, hurling excommunications at Nazism, of denouncing the 300 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: beastiality of the extermination of the Jews to the civilized world. 301 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: After many tears and prayers, I came to the conclusion 302 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: that a protest from me would arouse the most ferocious 303 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: anger against the Jews and multiply acts of cruelty because 304 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: they are undefended. Perhaps my solemn protest would win me 305 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 1: some praise from the civilized world, but would bring down 306 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 1: on the poor Jews an even more implacable persecution and quote, 307 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: I can absolutely have empathy for and genuinely trying to 308 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: reduce suffering in a world gone mad, trying not to 309 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 1: speak what is popular, nor what is even right, but 310 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: rather what would provoke the fewest and save the most, 311 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: and in some ways I can understand. Anyone who's ever 312 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: tiptoed around the edges of the room so as not 313 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 1: to provoke a bully can understand perhaps you've even tiptoed 314 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: toward the victim when you want to help. But maybe Hitler, Mussolini, 315 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 1: and the anti Jewish fascists were more like a black bear. 316 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 1: And when a black bear attacks, what you do is 317 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: get bigger than them, you show strength. We cannot know 318 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,880 Speaker 1: what would have happened if the Pope had spoken out. 319 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,959 Speaker 1: Maybe he really would have provoked Hitler to even harsher atrocity. 320 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: But surely many henchmen of Nazism viewed themselves as obedient Catholics. 321 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 1: After all, they weren't doing anything that the Pope had 322 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 1: unequivocally denounced. It's possible they would have thought twice if 323 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 1: their actions were an obvious opposition to papal doctrine, if 324 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: the Pope had told his Catholics explicitly that it was 325 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: against their religion against God to perform Hitler's work, that 326 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: a murderer of Jews could not be a good Catholic. 327 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 1: In the end, I agree with historian Kevin Madigan, who 328 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: says that Pious was quote a quintessential politician or perhaps 329 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: diplomat at a time when the world and especially the 330 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: Jews of Europe needed a prophet end quote. In nineteen 331 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: ninety eight, the Church under Pope John Paul the Second 332 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 1: published We Remember a reflection on the Show, which did 333 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: not address Pious the Twelfth Silence. In twenty nineteen, Pope 334 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: Francis famously said that the Church is not afraid of history. 335 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: He opened Pious the Twelfth archive the following year. The 336 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 1: work of historians in combing through the trove is ongoing, 337 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: and the question of Pious the Twelfth elevation to sainthood 338 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: still remains. That's the story of Pope Pious the Twelfth 339 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: during the Holocaust. But keep listening after a brief sponsor break, 340 00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: to hear from wiser perspectives than my own. When it 341 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: comes to Silence and the Holocaust, there is no one 342 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: who spoke with more lucidity than Ellie Vizelle. He was 343 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: the author of the book Night, perhaps the world's most 344 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: famous book about the Holocaust after the Diary of Anne 345 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: Frank and certainly the most famous account of the camps themselves. 346 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: In his Noble Peace Prize speech in nineteen eighty six, 347 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: he had some thoughts on silence quote the world did 348 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: know and remained silent. Silence encourages the tormentor never the 349 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: tormented end quote. High as the twelfth surely would not 350 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: have thought of himself as encouraging the tormentor. It was 351 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: clearly not his goal. He thought of himself as a 352 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: man of God. But there is a Jewish prayer which 353 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: begins with the lines Eternal God, open my lips. The 354 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: Pope never opened his lips to speak plainly enough. Noble 355 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:30,719 Speaker 1: Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild 356 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 1: from Aaron Mankey. Noble Blood is created and hosted by 357 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: me Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and researching by Hannah Johnston, 358 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: hannah's Wick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender, and Laurie Goodman. The 359 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: show is edited and produced by Naimi Griffin and rema 360 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: Il Kali, with supervising producer Josh Faine and executive producers 361 00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 1: Aaron Manky, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts 362 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 363 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:07,959 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.