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Speaker 1: What's the first thing you think of? What I say,

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Speaker 1: Carol Radswell.

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Speaker 2: I think of Real Housewives of New York. I think

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Speaker 2: of ghost Writer. I think of her coming down to

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Speaker 2: Lomit with the commoners. There was some sort of Lee

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Speaker 2: Radwell house Twitter account at some point. It was just

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Speaker 2: giving cultural and political point of view and commentary from

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Speaker 2: what you would imagine sort of an upity older woman,

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Speaker 2: and her husband was a Kennedy of some sort. She

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Speaker 2: was best friends with Caroline Bassett and JFK.

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Speaker 3: Junior.

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Speaker 4: I'm George Saveris, I'm Lyra Smith, and this is United

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Speaker 4: States of Kennedy, a podcast about her cultural fascination with

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Speaker 4: the Kennedy Dynasty. Each week we go into one aspect

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Speaker 4: of the Kennedy story, and today we are talking about

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Speaker 4: Carol Radswell.

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Speaker 5: If you're a Bravo fan, then you've definitely heard of her.

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Speaker 6: If not, don't worry, right.

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Speaker 4: So, for the Brava holics out there, you know her

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Speaker 4: as a cast member of the Real Housewives of New

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Speaker 4: York during.

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Speaker 6: Its heyday from twenty twelve to twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 3: I've heard about this miss Carol Radswell, and I'm surprised.

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Speaker 6: I haven't met her before.

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Speaker 5: With her Kennedy ties, Carol was also in the inner

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Speaker 5: circle of the Kennedy family. In the nineties, she married

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Speaker 5: Jackie O's nephew, Anthony Radswell, and was very close friends

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Speaker 5: with JFK. Junior and Carolyn Bissett.

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Speaker 4: Anthony was the son of Lee Bouvier Radswell, so he

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Speaker 4: was JFK. Junior's first cousin, and by all counts, Anthony

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Speaker 4: and John were very close. They were each best man

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Speaker 4: at the other's wedding.

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Speaker 5: Carol worked in broadcast journalism for almost two decades. She

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Speaker 5: started as a twenty twenty intern DN worked on the

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Speaker 5: show Close Up, and then moved to ABC News, where

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Speaker 5: she produced shows on hefty topics like abortion and gun control.

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Speaker 5: She was stationed in Iraq during the Gulf War and

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Speaker 5: won an Emmy for a story on the land mines

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Speaker 5: in Cambodia.

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Speaker 4: One of three Emmys that Carol has, in fact, along

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Speaker 4: with a Peabody and a glad Media Award, and these

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Speaker 4: accolades have a way of coming up when Carol talks

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Speaker 4: about her past. But she met Anthony while they were

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Speaker 4: both producers at ABC News, and when they started dating,

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Speaker 4: she was immediately swept into the Kennedy world. Her and

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Speaker 4: Carolyn Bessett became best friends, and in Carol's memoir, she

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Speaker 4: says of Carolyn, she made me believe I was captivating.

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Speaker 5: Anthony suffered a long bout with cancer during his marriage

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Speaker 5: to Carol, and sadly, he passed away just three weeks

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Speaker 5: after the fatal nineteen ninety nine plane crash that killed

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Speaker 5: JFK Junior, Carolyn, and Carolyne's sister Lauren. In fact, Carol

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Speaker 5: was the one who had to call Carolyn and Lauren's

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Speaker 5: mother to explain that both of her daughters were gone.

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Speaker 4: So Carol lost the three people closest to her in

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Speaker 4: the span of one month. It was an unimaginable series

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Speaker 4: of tragedies for her to go through, and it's what

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Speaker 4: she chronicled in her two thousand and five New York

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Speaker 4: Times best selling memoir What Remains.

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Speaker 5: That's a crash course on all things Carol Radswell, and

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Speaker 5: we'll get into some of them with our guests, but

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Speaker 5: we will also get pretty into the weeds on all

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Speaker 5: things Real Housewives. So fair warning, this one is for

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Speaker 5: the real bravoheads.

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Speaker 4: Without further ado, Here with us today is author and

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Speaker 4: Real Housewives anthropologist Brian Moylin. He is the author of Housewives,

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Speaker 4: The Real Story Behind the Real Housewives, and he's also

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Speaker 4: a writer at Vulture. Brian, thank you so much for

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Speaker 4: joining us. I'm so excited to be here. So Brian,

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Speaker 4: let's get right into it. You are obviously one of

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Speaker 4: the foremost Housewives experts. Yes, just off the bat, what

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Speaker 4: is your relationship to Carol radswell Well.

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Speaker 6: Chol radswell is one of my favorite.

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Speaker 7: Housewives and I've had brunch with her a couple times

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Speaker 7: and met her out in the wild. Seriously, the housewives

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Speaker 7: that I'm nice too that want to hang out with me.

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Speaker 7: And I've kept in touch with Carol and talked in

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Speaker 7: Fire Island. We once did a Housewives Dragged dinner and

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Speaker 7: everyone had to go dress as a real housewife and

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Speaker 7: I went as Carol Radziwell and she yelled at me

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Speaker 7: because my hair wasn't good enough, and so.

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Speaker 6: Did she also go as a different housewife. No, she

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Speaker 6: wasn't there. It was just a bunch of boys.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it was easy to be nice to her

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Speaker 5: because she was so funny on Housewives and she's from

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Speaker 5: the ultimate cast.

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Speaker 7: Yes, and she was the voice of reason more often

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Speaker 7: than not. And so I think that's usually like the

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Speaker 7: audience's way in right, and that's the one who we

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Speaker 7: are kind of siding with and being like, yeah, Carol's

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Speaker 7: the one who's right and sane amongst this cast of

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Speaker 7: absolute crazies.

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Speaker 5: I think also because that was my introduction to Housewives

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Speaker 5: was Rony and with Carol, and Carol made me laugh.

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Speaker 5: And it was always kind of interesting the way when

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Speaker 5: people who'd never seen and the show, who didn't really understand,

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Speaker 5: like they're like housewives, what's the story? What are they

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Speaker 5: doing all day? But then my example would always be like, well,

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Speaker 5: she's a Peabody Award winning news journalist. She's very as

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Speaker 5: a very interesting backstory.

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Speaker 7: So yeah, yes, I always remind people that housewives and

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Speaker 7: real housewives are different things, right, Like a housewives of

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Speaker 7: like Donna read at home with the vacuum cleaner, and

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Speaker 7: like a real housewife, you know, has a job and has.

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Speaker 6: Cool friends and is interesting and you know whatever. And

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Speaker 6: Carol also, you know, all the.

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Speaker 7: Other ladies were very upper East side but and down

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Speaker 7: want to be socialites, and Carol was like the cool

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Speaker 7: downtown one with like interesting friends, and she actually knew

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Speaker 7: and be you know, before, and that's why she was

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Speaker 7: on the show.

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Speaker 6: And so she was kind of always set.

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Speaker 7: Apart, I think from everybody else, and it always seemed

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Speaker 7: a little bit like the Housewives needed Carol more than

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Speaker 7: Carol needed the Housewives, which I think is a great

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Speaker 7: way to position it, because you know, you never like

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Speaker 7: those ladies who are desperate, like clawing on to the experience.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there was almost this is a you know, a

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Speaker 4: very controversial comparison to make, but there's almost a general

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Speaker 4: lionce quality where like, yeah, General Lions was like an

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Speaker 4: existing entity. If you were in certain circles in New York,

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Speaker 4: you already knew who she was. She did not have

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Speaker 4: to prove herself, and she could almost sort of remain

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Speaker 4: above it while participating in this, which is funny because

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Speaker 4: Carol in a different era, someone like Carol Radswell would

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Speaker 4: be seen as like, I don't know, like it would

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Speaker 4: be seen as not classy that she's like taking advantage

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Speaker 4: of her Kennedy connection to write a memoir and that

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Speaker 4: she's like giving interviews about them whatever. But because the

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Speaker 4: Housewives are so far in the other direction, she could

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Speaker 4: then be the chic one, like she could be like

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Speaker 4: the smart one, the voice of reason. Even though if

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Speaker 4: you were to ask my mom, what do you think

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Speaker 4: of Carol Radswell, she'd probably roll her eyes and be like.

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Speaker 6: Oh, she's just a social climber.

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Speaker 4: But in the context of the Housewives, Carol was basically

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Speaker 4: Princess Diana.

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Speaker 7: Yes, absolute well, and that was you know, like the

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Speaker 7: big quote unquote fight was that, you know, leu Anne

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Speaker 7: was a countess, but Carol was a princess, so you know,

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Speaker 7: she could one up even the countess.

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Speaker 5: I mean, there were so many instances where just Carol

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Speaker 5: being there just illuminated how ridiculous their claims of authority were.

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Speaker 5: And I always think about Sonia crying about how she

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Speaker 5: used to party with John John and it's like, well,

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Speaker 5: John John was the best man at Carol's wedding.

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Speaker 6: It's like there's no comparison.

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Speaker 7: And Carol also tells Sonia nobody who knows him calls

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Speaker 7: him that like he did not like it, like this

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Speaker 7: is like what we said. And so by Sonya even

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Speaker 7: saying like I used to party with John John on

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Speaker 7: the yacht, she's betraying the fact that she.

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Speaker 6: Didn't really know him.

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Speaker 7: Or know, the real version of him that Carol knew

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Speaker 7: and you know, but also, oh god, bless Sonya and

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Speaker 7: her delusions. I know.

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Speaker 4: And you know what, someone I know just met Sonya

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Speaker 4: at some pool party and they were like it was

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Speaker 4: literally like the camera's there's no undress, like an act

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Speaker 4: she puts up when it's done.

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Speaker 5: No.

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Speaker 7: I have interviewed Sonya multiple times for multiple stories.

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Speaker 6: It's just like I hit.

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Speaker 7: Record and then let Sonya ramble on for half an

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Speaker 7: hour and then mine not for quotes like that's the

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Speaker 7: best you're going to get with Sonya, And that's what

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Speaker 7: you know. People always ask me like, oh, what are

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Speaker 7: they like in real life? And they're exactly like they

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Speaker 7: are on the show. Down to a person, including Carol,

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Speaker 7: like she's cool, she's smart, she's dishy, she's a little

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Speaker 7: bit bitchy in a fun way, like just like she's

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Speaker 7: on the show, she is.

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Speaker 6: Like in real life.

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Speaker 7: And I think that that's what makes a great housewife,

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Speaker 7: as someone who's not playing it up or trying to

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Speaker 7: be someone they're not.

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Speaker 6: It's just they're just being themselves.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and you touched on something that I also think

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Speaker 4: is important, which is that she was always sort of

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Speaker 4: the smart one.

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Speaker 6: There was something. It's like she used to be a journalist.

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Speaker 4: She has Emmys, but also like she can read and write,

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Speaker 4: and she's able to like do a little quip that

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Speaker 4: isn't if she has a little insult or a little

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Speaker 4: shade that she's throwing. It's never like calling someone a whore.

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Speaker 4: It's a little more sophisticated than that.

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Speaker 6: It's like whyting them know that Puerto Rico is in

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Speaker 6: a country? You know what I mean.

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Speaker 7: It's like the baseline brows wise is so in the

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Speaker 7: basement that you know, they have no idea what's going

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Speaker 7: on it.

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Speaker 6: Carol just goes like, yeah, no, that's how you pronounce

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Speaker 6: this word.

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Speaker 7: And she looks like she has seven PhDs and speaks

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Speaker 7: ninety languages, you know.

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Speaker 6: Right exactly.

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Speaker 4: She almost has this like Sarah Jessica Parker quality of

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Speaker 4: being able to be both high and low. Like she's

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Speaker 4: actually able to really play in the Housewives, play a pen.

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Speaker 4: It's not like she's like on the corner being like,

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Speaker 4: oh god, these women are so like you know, ghosh.

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Speaker 4: Like she's able to like keep up but then also maintain.

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Speaker 6: The sort of level of superiority.

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Speaker 7: Absolutely, and I think that essentially she never like back

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Speaker 7: down from a fight, you know, and when people came

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Speaker 7: for her like a Viva did about her book, or

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Speaker 7: when she and Bethy Frankel eventually had their falling out,

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Speaker 7: It's like Carol can.

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Speaker 6: Go toe to toe with the best of them, you know.

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Speaker 7: But she wasn't one who was necessary early dramatic or

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Speaker 7: like inciting the kind of drama. She was usually one

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Speaker 7: responding to it, which I think is I would like

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Speaker 7: to hope the business for most of us would find

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Speaker 7: ourselves in if we were on a Housewives show. You know,

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Speaker 7: like I'm not gonna throw wine at anybody, but if

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Speaker 7: someone throws wine in me, you better watch the fuck out,

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Speaker 7: you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 6: And that's what Carol gave.

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Speaker 4: So we mentioned John John a little bit. This is

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Speaker 4: obviously a podcast about the Kennedy's. I'm sure there are

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Speaker 4: some people that have started listening to this that are

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Speaker 4: not Housewives fans that are already like who who's speaking?

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Speaker 7: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So tell us basically, at the most basic level,

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Speaker 4: what is Carol's relationship to the Kennedy family.

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Speaker 7: So I think to put it in like Housewives context,

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Speaker 7: you know, the Housewives of New York City was the

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Speaker 7: second franchise and kind of the first like standout, you know,

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Speaker 7: like they started with Orange County, and then once you

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Speaker 7: got to New York, the media started povering in a

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Speaker 7: different way because it was happening in their own backyards.

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Speaker 6: They started getting in the gossip colls whatever. It kind

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Speaker 6: of took off.

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Speaker 7: Bezie Frankel was the biggest star that it launched, and

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Speaker 7: she started skinnygro Margaritas, which she sold reportedly for one

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Speaker 7: hundred million dollars, and that kind of proved like the

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Speaker 7: cachet of the Whole Housewives machine, as it were. After

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Speaker 7: Bethany left, the show kind of took a turn for

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Speaker 7: the worst and they fired half the cast and re

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Speaker 7: hired three new women as a kind of soft three

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Speaker 7: boot at, one of whom was Carol.

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Speaker 6: Radswell, and she was married to Anthony.

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Speaker 7: Radzowell, who is Lee Radzwell's only son, whose father was

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Speaker 7: a Polish prince of some sort. I don't know how

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Speaker 7: Polish aristocracy works. I only know what I was sold

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Speaker 7: in those lives, and that's what we were told, sing

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Speaker 7: so Lea.

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Speaker 4: Radswell's husband was the Prince Yami Radswell of course is

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Speaker 4: Jackie's sister exactly.

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Speaker 7: And so Anthony's first cousins are John and Caroline Kennedy. Yes,

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Speaker 7: and so not all the Kennedy's not the vaccine that

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Speaker 7: I are. Kennedy's just the you know, good Kennedy's.

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Speaker 6: The classic set, Yes, that's true. Yes, the classic set.

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Speaker 6: And they were very close. They were very good friends.

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Speaker 7: And Carol and Anthony were very good friends with John

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Speaker 7: and Carolyn beset Kennedy, and so they were kind of

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Speaker 7: like a foursome who would hang out a lot. And

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Speaker 7: right around the same time that they died of the

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Speaker 7: plane crash, Anthony died of cancer at a very young age.

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Speaker 7: And so Carol wrote a memoir called What Remains, which

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Speaker 7: is about her dealing with the grief of losing not

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Speaker 7: only her husband but also her two best friends as well, and.

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Speaker 6: How she dealt with this. And it was a huge success, very.

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Speaker 7: Well regarded in terms of the writing of it is

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Speaker 7: actually a great book, and she went on Oprah to

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Speaker 7: talk about it was a huge success and that kind

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Speaker 7: of made her name.

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Speaker 6: She she had started as a journalist for ABC News.

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Speaker 7: That's where she met Anthony, who was also a journalist,

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Speaker 7: and yeah, so she had this kind of pedigree as

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Speaker 7: being both a writer and a journalist and a smart

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Speaker 7: person connected with the Kennedy's a princess whatever. So as

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Speaker 7: they're trying to reboot Housewives, that is you know, what

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Speaker 7: they were looking for is somebody with all of those

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Speaker 7: deep connections and deep kind of New York City experience

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Speaker 7: to bring the show to a new love. Joining her

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Speaker 7: on the cast were Heather Thompson, who was a fashion

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Speaker 7: signer who worked with j Lo p Ded amongst others,

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Speaker 7: and Heather kind of became her best sie on the show.

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Speaker 7: And then the other newbie was Aviva Dresser, who was

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Speaker 7: an unhinged want to be socialite with.

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Speaker 6: One leg and I mean, ooh girl that Aviva Dresser.

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Speaker 7: And Aviva kind of became Carol's biggest antagonist during her

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Speaker 7: kind of early years on the show.

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Speaker 5: Which I felt so bad for Aviva because it's like,

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Speaker 5: you do not have the chops to go up against

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Speaker 5: this person who is very intelligent, very quick and is

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Speaker 5: not gonna, you know, use a leg as a prop

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Speaker 5: like that was so shocking and weird and far from

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Speaker 5: like Carol's mindset.

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Speaker 6: Yes, and for.

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Speaker 4: Anyone who is in the Housewives viewer, Aviva did take

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Speaker 4: off her leg and throw it.

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Speaker 7: Yes, and her fast scene ever on the Housewive Aviva

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Speaker 7: through a leg everybody and it was crazy. Also, I

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Speaker 7: forgot to mention when Carol started on the show, she

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Speaker 7: was dating one of the band members of Aerosmith. She

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Speaker 7: was connected to Aerosmith, and so on their first cash

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Speaker 7: trip as a group, they go to Saint Arts and

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Speaker 7: he's there like with Aerosmith, like doing a concert.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Russ Irwin a singer, songwriter, producer, and Carol was in

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Speaker 4: the video for his twenty twelve song called Manhattan.

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Speaker 7: Yes as she would be. And so the first season,

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Speaker 7: you know, Carol's a voice of reason.

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Speaker 6: She's kind of chilling with the new lady.

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Speaker 7: She's a little bit in the background, being funny, commenting

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Speaker 7: on it, adjacent to the drama, but not part of it,

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Speaker 7: which was a great place for her to start and

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Speaker 7: a good way for fans to connect with her. Her

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Speaker 7: second season, she's right in the middle of it. When Aviva,

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Speaker 7: the leg throw or Extraordinaire, brings back this rumor she

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Speaker 7: heard that Carol used a ghostwriter on her book, which

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Speaker 7: is a storyline that fans referred to as Bookgate and

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Speaker 7: Aviva says, you didn't write your book, and Carol's like,

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Speaker 7: what the fuck are you talking about?

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Speaker 6: Of course I wrote this book. It's about my grief whatever.

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Speaker 6: And there are a lot.

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Speaker 7: Of accusations waged by housewives against each other. They usually

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Speaker 7: involve like renting one's house instead of owning, a husband,

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Speaker 7: who cheat, borrowing clothes and not buying them, you know,

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Speaker 7: kind of.

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Speaker 6: The petty bullshit housewives.

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Speaker 7: Cater said that we all love and it's nice and

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Speaker 7: light and who cares who's right, who cares who's wrong?

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Speaker 7: To me was like a really big deal, especially as

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Speaker 7: a writer and a journalist, for someone to say, like you,

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Speaker 7: you can't do the thing that you are known for.

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Speaker 5: Also her incredibly personal story. Yes, yes, it's an insane accusation.

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Speaker 6: Yes, and I mean.

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Speaker 7: Obviously anybody who works as a writer knows there's a team.

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Speaker 7: She has editors, she had copy editors. But never in

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Speaker 7: my mind did I doubt that Carol had her fingers

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Speaker 7: on the keyboard, like, you know, writing the book.

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Speaker 6: And you know, I've ghost to Annah housewives, Mama, no.

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Speaker 7: Shame in the game, you know, And I'm good on

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Speaker 7: the women who know that they need the help, but

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Speaker 7: Carol obviously didn't need it, and so you know, and

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Speaker 7: it was basically like Carol's word against Aviva's word. And

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Speaker 7: she even did the scene where she goes to her

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Speaker 7: book at Nerve Records with her the book etter says, no,

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Speaker 7: you didn't use a ghost writer whatever, but a Viva

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Speaker 7: kept banging on this draw and banging on this drub

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Speaker 7: and you know, there's a famous part. It's a reunion

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Speaker 7: for that season, I believe as season six, and Carol

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Speaker 7: calls her something and there says something not very funny,

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Speaker 7: and Aviva says, why don't you use your words write

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Speaker 7: or gnral So that's kind of what like fans often

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Speaker 7: refer to Carol Radzewell as writer Girl thanks to Aviva's

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Speaker 7: even worse put down of Carol.

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Speaker 5: Something I was surprised about on the show because I

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Speaker 5: guess when I was watching this, I didn't realize how

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Speaker 5: close she was to the Kennedy So she is a

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Speaker 5: part of us, you know, is a part of the

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Speaker 5: Kennedy family. And what are some of the more intimate

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Speaker 5: details that she talks about with her relationship with Carolyn

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Speaker 5: and JFK.

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Speaker 1: Junior.

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Speaker 7: She doesn't actually talk a lot about it on the show.

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Speaker 7: I think on the show Ghost, first little thing You've

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Speaker 7: got is she has Lee Radzwell's old couch, old tiger

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Speaker 7: print couch that's been really beat up. And she has

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Speaker 7: this crazy apartment downtown and the stairs are like in

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Speaker 7: the wall and there's no railing and it looks like

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Speaker 7: a death trap. And then she has Lee Radzowell's couch,

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Speaker 7: and so, yeah, she talks about how she had a

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Speaker 7: good relationship with her mother in law and it continued

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Speaker 7: after Anthony's death. They weren't especially close, but they were

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Speaker 7: still in good said with each other. Yeah, but that

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Speaker 7: she has Lee's couch, that's how close they were. It's

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Speaker 7: like she's taking her cast off furniture and she didn't

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Speaker 7: want to reupholster the couch because it was Lee's. But

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Speaker 7: then eventually she does, which becomes like a storyline on.

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Speaker 6: The Housewives because that's what we do. People.

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Speaker 7: We're talking about redesigned projects and thrown legs.

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Speaker 6: I mean, reupholstering Lee Radswell's couch is as good a

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Speaker 6: Housewife storyline as any I've heard.

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Speaker 1: I loved it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I want to just pause on the apartment of

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Speaker 4: it because there's something about her apartment it's like she

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Speaker 4: almost lives this bachelor lifestyle. Even the tiger print couch

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Speaker 4: like it's like, in the same way that when you

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Speaker 4: look at the Upper east Side ones, their houses look

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Speaker 4: like the gossip girl version of what you think in

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Speaker 4: Upper east Side townhouses, her apartment is almost comically like

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Speaker 4: if someone did like very broad set design in a

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Speaker 4: movie about what like a sexy widow who's dating a

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Speaker 4: twenty seven year old's apartment might.

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Speaker 6: Look like, yes, like it's not sex of the City.

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Speaker 6: It's like lipstick jungle exactly.

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Speaker 2: You know what I mean.

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Speaker 6: Yes, that's the feel you got for it, but it's also.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, very real and very authentic, and I think that

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Speaker 7: you kind of like it. Her to Sarah Jisca Parker,

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Speaker 7: I were like in her more it's Kerrie Bradshaw where

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Speaker 7: she's this downtown writer girl, and then her storyline after

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Speaker 7: season six with book Gate, she breaks up with Russ,

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Speaker 7: the aerosmith guy, and she starts dating a much younger

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Speaker 7: gentleman named Adam, who's a vegan chef who was dating

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Speaker 7: Countess Lewane's niece.

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Speaker 6: I believe it was no, it was not Victoria.

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Speaker 7: It was the niece, and the niece was on the

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Speaker 7: Sarah Jessica Parker Art Show on Bravo.

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Speaker 6: Do you remember this?

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Speaker 7: There was one season Sara Jisca Parker produced Itick got

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Speaker 7: it and Lewanne's niece was She's an artist.

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Speaker 6: Was on it and so oh yes.

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Speaker 7: In Carol's selling of the story, I think it was

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Speaker 7: called work of art, work of art. You were correct, yes,

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Speaker 7: And in Carol's selling of the story, Adam had broken

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Speaker 7: up with the niece a long time ago and Luanne

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Speaker 7: hired him to be a chef at her house when

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Speaker 7: all the women were in the Hamptons. That's where Carol

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Speaker 7: met him started dating him. And then Luyne accuses Carol

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Speaker 7: of breaking girl code by dating this guy, who Luanne

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Speaker 7: says was still together with her niece at this time

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Speaker 7: and if that wasn't the case, even if she wasn't,

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Speaker 7: and Luenne's basically kind of like, you're dating the help,

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Speaker 7: and Jael's like, well, I don't.

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Speaker 6: Give a shit. He's young and h and he's Adam,

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Speaker 6: and he's a vegan.

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Speaker 7: Chef, and so that kind of plays in also to her.

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Speaker 7: Very like Carrie Bradshaw mystique I.

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Speaker 6: Guess, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 4: She has this quality of being able to both do

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Speaker 4: something so definitionally tacky as dating her friend's niece's twenty

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Speaker 4: seven year old ex boyfriend, but then also is the

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Speaker 4: veagan chef who's a vegan chef, but also so like

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Speaker 4: staying above it and speaks in the softer voices anyone

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Speaker 4: and just being like, why is Luanne being so annoying

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Speaker 4: right now? Like I'm just trying to live my life.

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Speaker 4: Like she really is able to have it both ways.

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Speaker 4: I think she's a charisma that enables her to somehow

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Speaker 4: pull that off. I think other people could not pull

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Speaker 4: that off.

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Speaker 5: I think Carrie Bradshaw in and just like that basically

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Speaker 5: wrote that book like it's on her bookshelf No.

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Speaker 6: One hundred percent.

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Speaker 7: And I think, like speaking to Carol's charisma, a lot

439
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,760
Speaker 7: of stuff on The Housewife comes down till she said

440
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:30,040
Speaker 7: versus she said right. Carol says she wrote the book

441
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,119
Speaker 7: of Viva says she does it. Carol says they were

442
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,720
Speaker 7: broken up, Louyenne says they weren't. And I think that

443
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 7: because Carol is the sane one, because she's the voice

444
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,920
Speaker 7: of the reason, She's the one at least I always believed.

445
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:42,600
Speaker 7: It's like, well, if Carol says it's true, you know,

446
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:44,640
Speaker 7: because the other women are crazy and they make shit

447
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:46,639
Speaker 7: up and they're bending the truth and they're trying to

448
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,199
Speaker 7: make drama, and Carol is just always such like a

449
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,680
Speaker 7: straight shooter that you never questioned at least I.

450
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 6: Did her version of.

451
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,800
Speaker 5: The truth, and so like you were saying, she had

452
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 5: I remember the Lee Radswell. That was really I think

453
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,360
Speaker 5: how I learned how closely connected she was to the Kennedy's.

454
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:08,639
Speaker 5: But then also pretty recently she did the Moth story

455
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 5: about Jackie O's watch.

456
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,240
Speaker 1: Did you listen to that or watch that?

457
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 7: No? I did not, But I know what my first

458
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:21,280
Speaker 7: YouTube is going to be after we're done.

459
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:26,400
Speaker 3: Okay, when I was when I turned thirty, my husband

460
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 3: gave me a Cartier tank watch that had once belonged

461
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 3: to his aunt, Jackie Kennedy.

462
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,399
Speaker 4: It's really fascinating and it really sort of relates to

463
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,440
Speaker 4: a lot of our interests over here at the United

464
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 4: States of Kennedy, mostly supernatural curses that afflict the Kennedy family.

465
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 4: So the story is basically that Carol was gifted Jackie

466
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 4: Kennedy's Cardier tank that she had worn kind of her

467
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 4: whole life. It was a gift to her, and then

468
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,679
Speaker 4: she wrote her whole life. She was, I believe wearing

469
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 4: it when JFK was assassinated, and then Carol started wearing it,

470
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,440
Speaker 4: and then her husband, of course died of cancer. Then

471
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 4: started feeling as though there was a negative aura attached

472
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,399
Speaker 4: to it, So she hid it in her drawer for

473
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 4: many years and didn't want to look at it. Then

474
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 4: she ended up gifting it to a friend of hers

475
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:14,400
Speaker 4: named Cassandra, and then Cassandra's husband also died of cancer,

476
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 4: and so Carol was like, this watch is cursed. It

477
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 4: has belonged to three women, all of whom are widowed

478
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 4: in their thirties. I'm gonna put it up for sale

479
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 4: at Christie's and hopefully Cardia will buy it back and

480
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:27,920
Speaker 4: I will never have to think of it again. And Lara,

481
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 4: do you want to tell us who ended up buying

482
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 4: the watch?

483
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:31,719
Speaker 1: Kim Kardashian.

484
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 6: Kim Kardashian ended up bidding on the watch and buying it.

485
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 6: You know why she's trying to kill Kaya. I did

486
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 6: have this thought where I was like, Kim, how old

487
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:42,680
Speaker 6: is Kim? Kim?

488
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 4: No, She's forty four. Okay, so she's managed to not

489
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,400
Speaker 4: be widowed in her thirties. Sorry to be so Macab,

490
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 4: but Kanye is not doing well and this can't be

491
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:51,640
Speaker 4: good to have the negative.

492
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, her buying the watch I think did pre date

493
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 5: a lot of his more public mental health extreme issues,

494
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 5: and people do like it.

495
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,120
Speaker 1: It to that it's destroying a merit.

496
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 4: And then you sort of got back to Kim that

497
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 4: this watch was quote unquote cursed, and she in fact

498
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 4: returned it. She's not in possession of it. Cardia ended

499
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 4: up buying it back and it's now in the vault

500
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,919
Speaker 4: in the basement of the Fifth Avenue store. Kim maybe

501
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 4: fully paid for it and just didn't want it in

502
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:19,879
Speaker 4: her possession. It's not like she returned it for the

503
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 4: money that she paid. That's how much she was.

504
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,359
Speaker 7: She was like, get this motherfucker away from me. No, literally,

505
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 7: how much, see Carol get for it. You know, Carol

506
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 7: has this way of not quite.

507
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:31,640
Speaker 4: Saying how much money she has, or how much money

508
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 4: she makes, or what her sort of financials are at

509
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 4: any given time.

510
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 6: But I'm sure it was a pretty good check.

511
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 1: I'm sure you could liken it to other Jackie O.

512
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:41,360
Speaker 1: Auction items.

513
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, I will.

514
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,120
Speaker 7: Say I don't think I've been sharing any confidence here,

515
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 7: But Carol has said multiple times that she went on

516
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,719
Speaker 7: Housewives for the money, so I don't think she's like

517
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 7: sitting on some secret Polish prince fortune. She has an

518
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 7: apartment and she has a Jackie O watch. I think

519
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 7: she's comfortable, but ooh girl watch.

520
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I know who.

521
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 7: So eventually after Adam the Adam storyline, Carol befriended Bethy Frankel,

522
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 7: who was not just Roney's breakout star, but probably the

523
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 7: biggest Housewife star there is still a big star, though

524
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 7: she's not on Housewife anymore, like a big TikTok influencer

525
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 7: millions and millions of followers. They became very close and

526
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,479
Speaker 7: then had a falling out, and Bethany attributed it to

527
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 7: Carol Is seeming to not want to spend as much

528
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 7: time with her and not paying a much tensure to her,

529
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 7: and Carol said, my best friend's husband was dying and

530
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,360
Speaker 7: I was helping her her, so that kind of factors

531
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 7: into her events. The dissolution of her friendship with Bethany Frankel,

532
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 7: which becomes kind of Carol's last big story on the

533
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 7: Housewives before her exit.

534
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 4: And then she exits basically saying she wants to go

535
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 4: back to journalism, but then also ends up having a

536
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 4: falling out with Andy Cohen which lasts like seven years.

537
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 4: They like don't talk for seven years, and it was

538
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 4: only recently squashed when she made a surprise appearance on

539
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 4: Watch What Happens Live, And she claims she's not gonna

540
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 4: re enter the Bravo universe, but who knows. And so

541
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,479
Speaker 4: that's where Carol is now. And I will say I

542
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 4: found out just this morning that she's now on substack.

543
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,640
Speaker 4: So she has the journalism dream is alive and well,

544
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 4: and I actually wrote down she has this great She's

545
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 4: only written one post and it was July thirty first,

546
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 4: so the clock is ticking. But she has this really

547
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 4: great bio of hers that she wrote. And to your

548
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 4: point about her not using a ghostwriter, she does have

549
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 4: a specific voice, like maybe someone spruced it up, but

550
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 4: there's a way she writes that is very like, it's

551
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 4: honestly like columnist voice. It is Carrie Bradshaw columnist voice.

552
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 4: There's a little aside, a little joke. Then she has

553
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 4: one sentence that sort of ties it all together. She

554
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,239
Speaker 4: has this one part that I thought was fun in

555
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 4: her first post where she's like, I've decided to write

556
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 4: about my life here on substack, because well why not.

557
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 4: And then she goes expect musings parentheses a word people

558
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 4: use when they're not quite sure what they're saying. Yet

559
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 4: that's funny to make fun of the trope of saying musings.

560
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 4: And then my favorite thing is at the very end

561
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 4: she writes her bio. It's five paragraphs, I won three Emmys,

562
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 4: blah blah. And then at the end it goes Carol's

563
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 4: working on a bunch of writing projects that may or

564
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 4: may not ever see the light of day, but if

565
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 4: they do, she plans to sell them for an obscene

566
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 4: amount of money, buy a castle and Antwerp and fuck off.

567
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 4: And that's like the final sentence of her five paragraph bio.

568
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 4: It's like, sonya can't write.

569
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 6: That, so on no Viva Charger certainly can't write that,

570
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 6: you know, not even with the ghost writer shit. So yeah, oh,

571
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 6: I'm good for Carol.

572
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, And she has said repeatedly, and this was before

573
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 7: her kind of cooling of things with it. So what

574
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 7: happened with Andy Kullen is so they were friendly before

575
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 7: the show. The story goes that Carol was friends with

576
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 7: Kelly Rippa and Marcus Willis, who are very good friends

577
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 7: with Andy Cohen. He met her at a dinner party

578
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 7: at Kelly Ripper's house, found out she was a princess,

579
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 7: found out the whole story was like you have to

580
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 7: be on Housewives, and really pursued her and convinced her

581
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,479
Speaker 7: to do the show, not necessarily against her will, but

582
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 7: you know, took a lot of cajoling.

583
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 6: And so then at.

584
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 7: The final reunion, Carole felt like Andy was taking Bethany's

585
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 7: side in their argument, and that he was favoring her,

586
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 7: letting her speak more, getting in more sides, and Bethany

587
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 7: quicker than Carol and a lot more biting than Carol

588
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 7: and a lot meaner. And when she comes to somebody,

589
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 7: she really comes for somebody. And so there's a moment

590
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 7: in the reunion where Carol is basically, you know, fuck off,

591
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 7: like fuck you to Andy because she feels like he

592
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 7: wasn't having her back.

593
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 6: And so that's what caused their feud.

594
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 7: And then she went on and didn't really talk trash

595
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 7: about the housewives, but when she would do press or

596
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 7: do appearances, she talked about how she's never coming back.

597
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 6: I'm never coming back to the show. I'm never going

598
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 6: to do it again. And I really believed her.

599
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 7: And so the Housewives had this thing called Ultimate Girl's

600
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 7: Trip where they get a bunch of former housewives together

601
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 7: and they sent him on a trip and they filmed

602
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 7: it for a week, and they did one with all

603
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 7: former real house lives in New York. And Carol didn't

604
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 7: do that, and she said every time she's asked you,

605
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 7: she doesn't want to go back. So I can see

606
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 7: her now that relations have cooled between her and Handy

607
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 7: being an occasional guest on Watch What Happens Live showing

608
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 7: up to do the this or that kind of brabo

609
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 7: kind of thing. But yeah, I don't see her wanting

610
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 7: to be on another show. Probably wisely she left on top.

611
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 7: Yeah as a housewife.

612
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the Bethany thing is funny because we've

613
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 4: talked a lot about how Carol was always above the fray,

614
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 4: but the friendship with Bethany from the beginning was a

615
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 4: taking time bomb because you knew if Bethany turns on you,

616
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 4: it's over. And Carol could not stand up to someone

617
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 4: as domineering as Bethany.

618
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,959
Speaker 7: But of all the people to go against Bethany, Carol

619
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 7: I think had the best chance. And I think that

620
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 7: because fans are always on their side, the fans believed her.

621
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 6: And there's this famous scene in season.

622
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 7: Three of brill Housewives where Ramona Singer and Bethany Franco

623
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 7: go on a walk across the Brooklyn Bridge and a

624
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 7: Ramona Singer says to Bethany, you don't have any friends,

625
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,239
Speaker 7: none of your relationships last, like you can't whatever. And

626
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 7: we have seen that to be true over the course

627
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 7: of decades on reality's television, and Caro was just another

628
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 7: one of them. And Bethany blows up these friendships, you know,

629
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 7: And Bethany said Carol wasn't swending enough time with her.

630
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 7: Kara was saying Bethany is too domineering, she wants it

631
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 7: all to be about herself. It all has to be

632
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 7: on Bethany's terms, whatever, And that's exactly what we saw

633
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 7: of Bethany's character on the show. And so I was

634
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 7: always has stag team Carol as it were in the fight.

635
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 7: But yes, but Bethany's so smart, so quick, so mean

636
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 7: that plenty of people were coming for Bethany because she

637
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 7: was always the alpha, she was the rich one, She

638
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 7: was the one who proved herself and everyone always failed.

639
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 7: But Carol dies some damage, I think on her way

640
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 7: down and out of the show, show going sparring with Bethany,

641
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 7: just by showing Bethany how crazy she was.

642
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 5: It also seems like Bethany just has the inner motivation

643
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 5: drive to inhabit the role of the Bravo celebrity that

644
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 5: Carol doesn't seem to happen.

645
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 6: Always a shark.

646
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 4: If Carol is a fabulous columnist, Bethany's an insult comic,

647
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 4: like she's gonna tear you down.

648
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 6: Yes, well, and you're right.

649
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 7: Bethany has always wanted to be famous in a way

650
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 7: where Carol was reluctantly famous, And I think that makes

651
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 7: a really good housewife is somebody who doesn't want it

652
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 7: too badly, doesn't want.

653
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 6: The fame too much.

654
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 7: And we don't see Carol going on celebrity wife swap,

655
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 7: we don't see her on Image Rehab, Reality Star edition.

656
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 6: She's not has a celebrity being brother.

657
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 7: She's left Housewives and kept it quiet, and so I

658
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 7: think that speaks to the difference between her and Bethany.

659
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 7: Bethany's all her own housewives, but she's always on TikTok.

660
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 7: She had another Bravo show, she was on a Shark Tank.

661
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 7: She's always trying to keep that fame alive in a

662
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 7: way that Carroll doesn't seem interested in.

663
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, Carol, I think always wants to have one foot

664
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 4: in journalism. I don't think she's ready or willing or

665
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 4: being given the opportunity to go back and produce docuseries

666
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 4: and couble, but she wants to have a column. She

667
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 4: was at some point a contributing writer to Town and Country.

668
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 4: She wants to be seen as someone who writes for magazines,

669
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 4: whereas Bethanie wants to be a television start. Speaking of

670
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 4: the beauty of female friendship, we should talk a little

671
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,479
Speaker 4: bit about Carol's friendship with Carolyn, which is a huge

672
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 4: part of the book. In my memory of the book,

673
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 4: the central love story is almost more Carol and Carolyn

674
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 4: than it is Carolyn and Anthony. There is just something

675
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 4: so magnetic about Carolyn, and Carol is so taken with it.

676
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 4: There's this amazing scene where their first ever interaction was

677
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 4: that they were staying in the house in the Hampton's

678
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 4: and it was the two couples, Carolyn Anthony, Carolyn and

679
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 4: JFK Jr. And Carolyn's first words to Carol can I

680
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 4: borrow your toothbrush? Because she had forgotten her toothbrush. But

681
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 4: it's like, what an incredible sort of like Dawming yeah

682
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 4: thing to say to someone we've just met. Can I

683
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 4: borrow your toothbrush? And it should actually be your honor

684
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 4: for me to use your toothbrush?

685
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 6: Yeah?

686
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 7: Well, and I think that she seems to have a

687
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,719
Speaker 7: lot of the same thing Carol hads, like downtown cool,

688
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 7: knows the right people go. Storry places those sorry things

689
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 7: in a way that Carol really vibed with. And you

690
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 7: see that too in the early days with Bethany or

691
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 7: her relationship before Bethy shows up on the scene with

692
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 7: Heather Thompson. Carol always found one person and that was

693
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 7: her bestie. And I think that it's almost like re

694
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 7: replicating that relationship we read about in the book that

695
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 7: she had with Carolyn.

696
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's almost this comfort with being the supporting actress.

697
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 4: It's like I want to be best friends with the

698
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 4: head cheerleader and I'm safe because I'm under her protection.

699
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, She's like the Judy your character in the rom

700
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 7: com exactly. She is like the cool, funny best friend.

701
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 7: She doesn't want to be the star of the rom com.

702
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:09,240
Speaker 6: Yes, and then maybe.

703
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 5: And that is the nature of a journalist totally. The

704
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 5: mindset of a journalist is to be there. Yes, it's

705
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 5: to be as centrally located as possible, but not to

706
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 5: be the.

707
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 6: Story right, to be close to power in this way, and.

708
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 7: To be commenting on it and reporting on it in

709
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 7: a way that you saw her doing on the show,

710
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 7: and not to change the subject away from feal friendships.

711
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,320
Speaker 7: But I think another thing we need to remark about

712
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 7: Carol's time on The Housewives is Housewives is inherently a

713
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 7: political place.

714
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 6: We'd all often talk about politics.

715
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 7: I would argue it is one of the few purple

716
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,399
Speaker 7: things left in America where there are fans who are red,

717
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 7: there are fans who are blue, and everyone can agree

718
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 7: on these fighting women. However, Carol made it a big

719
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 7: storyline that she was going to go out canvassing for

720
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 7: Hillary clint In's twenty sixteen campaign, and she made that

721
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 7: kind of central to the storyline. She had a watch

722
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 7: party that she invited all these people to excited to

723
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 7: see the first female president be crowned, et cetera, and

724
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 7: we all know how that story ended.

725
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 3: I'm having an election party, but I'm really in my

726
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 3: mind getting ready to celebrate the first female president. All

727
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 3: my friends are coming, even my Republican friends, and I'm

728
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 3: looking forward to watching the polls come in. This election

729
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 3: has taken is toll on some friendships, so I am

730
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 3: glad that is finally coming to an end and we

731
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,280
Speaker 3: can move on to bigger and better things.

732
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 4: And that was a real almost like breaking the fourth

733
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 4: wall moment or something, because you are really just not

734
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 4: meant to think too hard about what these women's political

735
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 4: views are, and especially in that era of New York,

736
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 4: many of them, in fact, were Trump supporters.

737
00:35:55,200 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 7: Like just bluntly, Ramona Singer hangs out at Marla go yeah,

738
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 7: and introduce Kelly Dodge to her husband, who's a Fox,

739
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 7: and these correspondent like, she is as red hat as

740
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 7: you're gonna get.

741
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not surprising.

742
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 5: The other aspect of the breaking of wourth wall for

743
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 5: me is that a lot.

744
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: Of times The Housewives Live, you're.

745
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 5: Watching the show after the fact, but it's not necessarily

746
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 5: tied to a strict timeline. They exist in this kind

747
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 5: of amorphous universe where time is relative and they are

748
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 5: not a part of reality, and that's part of what

749
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,280
Speaker 5: enables you to suspend reality.

750
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: And I don't know, just kind of check.

751
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 6: It's meant to be escapism.

752
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 4: They are meant to be these campy, draggy characters that

753
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,359
Speaker 4: you can follow independent of what's going on in the world,

754
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 4: and you're not seeing them be like, did you get

755
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 4: the news notification from the New York Times?

756
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 6: They have a brunch to.

757
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 7: Attend, and I think the part of the secret to

758
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 7: the housewives enduring appeal is that they're always acquiring new.

759
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 6: Fans and you can go back and watch it.

760
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 7: Other than the styles and hair, clothing and decor and

761
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 7: maybe which restaurants they'll go to, there's nothing to tie

762
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:03,959
Speaker 7: it to time.

763
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 6: It could be last week, it could be twenty years ago.

764
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 7: These relationships amongst women don't really change. So having this

765
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 7: political storyline is one of the few things that ties

766
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 7: it to a tiden place. And it's the first and

767
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 7: perhaps the last time that we have had a political

768
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 7: discussion on the Royal Housewives that I think part of

769
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 7: that has to do with the failure of Carol's toying

770
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 7: with this political storyline.

771
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 5: Brian, the first time we met actually was many, many

772
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,240
Speaker 5: years ago when I was the engineer for Bitch Sesh

773
00:37:55,360 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 5: and you, yes, you were ghostwriting how so I have memoir?

774
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 1: Can I?

775
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 6: Yes? Can I say? You say? Who? Okay? Yeah?

776
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 5: You were doing Erica Jane's memoir, which is very much

777
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 5: close to this in my mind of how the reality

778
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 5: of her and her politics and her ethics and her

779
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 5: husband in the news kind of ruined the being able

780
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:26,760
Speaker 5: to let go of all that. For me, at least

781
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 5: watching the show, it was like, no, now, this is

782
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:29,919
Speaker 5: really real.

783
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,399
Speaker 7: Yes, no, absolutely, And when I was arguing with Erica

784
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 7: it was before Yeah, all the stuff about her husband

785
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 7: came out.

786
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 6: We didn't really talk about it a lot.

787
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,280
Speaker 7: I keep in touch with Erica a bit here and there,

788
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 7: But yeah, I think you're right. Social media and the

789
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 7: Internet have become more and more a part of the show,

790
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 7: and we are seeing the women filming in real time,

791
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 7: and we're knowing how they feel about things based on

792
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:54,760
Speaker 7: what they post on the Internet, et cetera, et cetera.

793
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 7: Like their politics and how they act in the real

794
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 7: world has come onto the show. More and more, and

795
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 7: the harsh reality is a lot of them are a

796
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:10,399
Speaker 7: lot more red than some of their Blue friends and

797
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 7: fans like myself would wats to believe. So yes, I'm

798
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 7: happy to keep the politics stuff off the like. As

799
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 7: long as they're not talking about it, I'm happy to

800
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 7: ignore it. But there was a big kerfuffle with Aaron

801
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 7: Leachy who was a new real housewife from New York

802
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 7: after Carol left, and she donated money to Trump and

803
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 7: then tried to deny it, and so it comes up

804
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 7: a little bit, but we never saw any of that

805
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 7: on the show. That's more of the social media and

806
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 7: the deeper corners of the fandom where they're going on

807
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 7: Reddit and talking about this kind of stuff as opposed

808
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 7: to you just watch the show you have no clue about.

809
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 5: Just to bring it back to Carolyn, that was something

810
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 5: I enjoyed. I know it goes against the form, but

811
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 5: I felt like I brought like a real legitimacy to.

812
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: The car conflict that they had.

813
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 5: Was to know that she really cared about this and

814
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 5: the other ones really didn't.

815
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,439
Speaker 7: Yes and right, And there was a whole fan thing

816
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 7: about how Tinsley Mortimer, who was kind of a socialite

817
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 7: at the time, didn't vote in the election, you know,

818
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 7: so then it was like people went and looked how

819
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 7: everybody voted or if they voted whatever, and Tinsley had

820
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,320
Speaker 7: him voted, and so then they had Kenvin sort of vote.

821
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:22,240
Speaker 6: The next side or whatever.

822
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 7: Yeah, but I also think that to the purpleness of Housewives,

823
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 7: that moment kind of played to both sides. Still, Like

824
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 7: those of us who were Hillary supporters are like, I

825
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 7: feel how you feel and going through it. You know,

826
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 7: it's usually six months, nine months after the events happened

827
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 7: that we see them on television, and so so you're

828
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 7: reminded of that night six to nine months later. Was

829
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 7: very difficult for a lot of us Blue people and

830
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 7: for a lot of the Red people. It was the

831
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 7: look at these liberal tears, like we're owning the Libs celebration.

832
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 7: And so even though it was clearly showing Carol's viewpoint

833
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 7: on a political matter, I think that for fans it

834
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 7: could still be read in different ways.

835
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 4: I do think it is fitting that all three of

836
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 4: us are very pro Carol, because she does sort of

837
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 4: stroke the ego of a certain coastal liberal watching the

838
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 4: Real Housewives, wanting to think of it as not trash

839
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 4: TV and wanting to think of it as more sophisticated.

840
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 4: And you know, there's this trend over the last ten

841
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 4: years of people being like Real Housewives is actually like

842
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 4: Shakespearean and Bravo is actually not low culture and all

843
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,399
Speaker 4: this stuff. And I think it's sort of like we

844
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,720
Speaker 4: think of her almost like as an avatar for people

845
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 4: that are more like our friends, and they're like creatives

846
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 4: that live in New York City and live downtown and

847
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 4: whatever else.

848
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:41,879
Speaker 6: And so I do.

849
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 4: Think what she presents in the Housewives is like what

850
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 4: the Kennedys represent in American politics. It's like hope and

851
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 4: progress in this irredeemable milieu.

852
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:52,720
Speaker 6: So this is one of my hobby horses.

853
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 7: So excuse me, but for all the Kennedy fans who

854
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 7: have listened this far about Housewives and are like, this

855
00:41:59,320 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 7: sounds stupid.

856
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 6: It is trash TV. What the fuck are you guys

857
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 6: talking about?

858
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 7: I do think that it is very biased in that

859
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 7: reality television, especially the Housewives, is a very female space,

860
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 7: and it is stories by, for and about women, and

861
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 7: those are often discounted, and we're told it's trash, We're

862
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 7: told it's guilty pleasures. We're told because they're about domestic

863
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 7: matters like marriages and divorces and friendships and kids whatever,

864
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 7: that those stories aren't worthy.

865
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 6: And I think that that's bullshit.

866
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 7: And I think that this is one of the few

867
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,399
Speaker 7: places that we can see women of a certain age

868
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 7: interact with each other in groups. You're not getting that

869
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 7: in scripted television. You're not getting that anywhere else. And

870
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 7: people look down on it, and we enjoy it. It

871
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 7: is our escapism. It's something we love to talk about

872
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 7: in the same way football is something that people love

873
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 7: to talk about and people love to watch. Housewives never

874
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 7: given anyone cte. Okay, Football, on the other hand, violent, damaging, terrible,

875
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 7: promotes all of our zipples in America and it billion

876
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 7: dollar industry whatever, But that it's worse at Housewives. Housewives

877
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 7: deserves the veneration that football gets in American culture.

878
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,879
Speaker 6: And I will die on the tail, I will die

879
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 6: in the hill.

880
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 5: And I've led to a different kind of rehab for

881
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 5: quite a few of.

882
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 7: That, and fraud and person And I'm not saying it's

883
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 7: all good all the way.

884
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 6: No, I'm just saying, yeah, no.

885
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 4: And among the audiences, you know, the worst anyone has

886
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:30,240
Speaker 4: ever gotten from Housewives is read it induced borderline personality disorder.

887
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 5: Absolutely yes. To me, the big thing is the women

888
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 5: of a certain age. That's what draws me to it,

889
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 5: and that's what I find the most interesting. I can't

890
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 5: get in on the younger housewives. I like to see

891
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 5: the older women that I don't see anywhere else.

892
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 6: Well and sick, get back to your watch.

893
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 7: You know, there was a certain era when Carol was

894
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 7: on where I said that Real Housewives was a show

895
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 7: about people who are haunted.

896
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:58,439
Speaker 6: Carol has this curse. Watch.

897
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 7: Drenda Medley has a red balloon that is the spirit

898
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,840
Speaker 7: of her husband. Tinsley Mortimer is mourning the life.

899
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 6: Of the socialite that she lost.

900
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 7: Bethany Frankkell is mourning a disastrous marriage and her lonely childhood.

901
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 6: You know, Sonia Morgan is.

902
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 7: Haunted by the life of her ex husband that she

903
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 7: can't like go of. It's about these women who were

904
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 7: stuck in this place and for a while, Carol amongst

905
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 7: all the women, they're all single, they're all to forsas

906
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 7: or widows, and they're trying to live a life. To

907
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 7: get back to the Carrie Bradshaw metaphor, and just like

908
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 7: that before and just like that was, and just like

909
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 7: that and a much better version of it because it

910
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,800
Speaker 7: was real and believable. While they were rich, they weren't

911
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:43,799
Speaker 7: like a whole house in Grammercy rich.

912
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 4: One of the sort of funny things that has been

913
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 4: popping up on my feeds over the last few years

914
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 4: is Carol Radswell's photos with Gilaine Maxwell. It's like this

915
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 4: thing that keeps coming up. And then she was on

916
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 4: some sort of Epstein contact list. Obviously the reason I'm

917
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 4: not accusing her. The reason is obviously just because she

918
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 4: was in circles with society people, and those people overlapped

919
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 4: with Gallaine and with Jeffrey Epstein.

920
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 6: But what is your takes? Yeah, Glenn Hook.

921
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 7: Carol's at their photo for what remains her memoir about

922
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 7: the Kennedy's, Like the credit on it is Glenn Maxwell.

923
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 6: And yeah, and so I don't think Carol knew of

924
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 6: any wrong. I mean, I don't know.

925
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 7: I haven't talked to Carol about it, but yeah, I

926
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 7: know people who knew her just from being around that

927
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 7: set of people, and they were friendly whatever.

928
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 6: But yeah, Carol, I tell you, I bet she has

929
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:37,879
Speaker 6: some stories for.

930
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 4: Us, I know, I know, well, maybe now on her

931
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:42,800
Speaker 4: substect she can expose Gallaine.

932
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 6: Or does Glenn need to be exposed. I guess she

933
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 6: is already in prison.

934
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 7: I would be curious to hear just Carol's take on it,

935
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 7: or being that close to it, or if there was

936
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 7: things then that she was like, Oh, that's a little weird,

937
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 7: and that now that she knows the full story, she

938
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 7: could look back on all of that wild.

939
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 5: I did have one last question because this was where

940
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 5: I learned that she was the one who had to

941
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,720
Speaker 5: make the phone calls when their plane was missing.

942
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, was on Housewives that she discussed that.

943
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 4: She talks about it in the memoir. She says that

944
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 4: Carolyn and JFK. Junior awarded this plane. They were going

945
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 4: to Hanna's port, and this guy named Pinky, who was

946
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 4: supposed to pick them up at the airport, calls Carol

947
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 4: and says they're not there, And so, you know, in

948
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 4: her own telling, her reporter instincts kick in and she

949
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 4: starts calling everyone who might have information about them, ultimately

950
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 4: ending and calling the Coastguard and becoming more and more panicked.

951
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 4: As she's making these calls. She talks about having all

952
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 4: these post it notes on the wall of the different

953
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 4: phone numbers she's calling, blah blah, and then ultimately she

954
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 4: is the one who calls Carolyn's mom, Carolyn and Lauren's

955
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 4: mom because of course Lauren, Carolyn's sister, was also on

956
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 4: the plane, and so Carol has to basically break the

957
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 4: news to Carol's mom that both of her daughters were

958
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 4: potentially in a fatal plane crash, which I really had

959
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 4: not realized. You've assumed someone like Carol massages the truth

960
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 4: when it comes to her proximity to these famous people.

961
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 4: She is, after all, a reality star, she's a memoirist, whatever,

962
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 4: but she was close enough that she's quite literally the

963
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 4: person who broke the news to Carolyn Bessett's mom. Yeah,

964
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:26,800
Speaker 4: and there's all these other stories about Carolyn. Carolyn apparently

965
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 4: kept begging Carol to get a therapist because of everything

966
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 4: Carol was going through. But yeah, so this is something

967
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:33,399
Speaker 4: she said in the show.

968
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 5: La I have a memory of her saying it in

969
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 5: the show. But tell me if I'm wrong, Brian, because.

970
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 1: I feel like I want not about talking to their mother.

971
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,439
Speaker 5: But she is saying, she says she is the one

972
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 5: who made the calls made the phone.

973
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 7: Calls, and that I believe. There's also an instident. I

974
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 7: don't know if you remember this, but Carol lived in

975
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 7: London for a bit and Derinda Medley, who was one

976
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,720
Speaker 7: of her castmates whose husband died, also lived in London.

977
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 7: And they have a trip where they go back because

978
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 7: Carol interred Anthony's ashes in a church in England that

979
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 7: his father had built and they were tearing the church down,

980
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 7: and so she has to go back to London to

981
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,359
Speaker 7: get the ashes, and there's this kind of famous scene

982
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:21,919
Speaker 7: where Carol's like, you know, has this very emotional hearts

983
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 7: of heart discussion with Thorinda about being young widows and

984
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 7: how they dealt with all that, and she's lying on

985
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 7: the bed with thenav ashes next to her in her

986
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 7: headphones on, trying to collect herself. And it has become

987
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 7: like you know, for House Size Fan Gasilly meme. So

988
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 7: you see Carol even still on the show, like dealing

989
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 7: with this grief. And so amongst her fighting with Bethany Frankel,

990
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 7: writer girl, Adam the stupid chef whatever, there's still that

991
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 7: undercurrent of tragedy that you read about in the memoir

992
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 7: that carries on into the show and obviously affected her

993
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 7: proba selfexter this day. Hm.

994
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 5: I mean that's like the secret magic of the show.

995
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 5: On the surface US it's silly, petty fights, but then

996
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 5: there really is. I mean, these are like women with

997
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 5: very full storied lives.

998
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:11,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's speaking of Direnda. Dorenda'shusband also worked under Bill Clinton,

999
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 4: so there is a sort of blue versus Red alliance

1000
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 4: happening there. Like when I think of Dirinda and Caroly,

1001
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 4: I'm like, okay, I'm safe. Were in blue country.

1002
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:23,839
Speaker 6: Yes, agree, agree, Bluestone manner. That's right, Bluestone manner, of course. Yeah, God,

1003
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:24,399
Speaker 6: bless it.

1004
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming on to talk to

1005
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 1: us about Carol.

1006
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 6: Ratswell, no, thank you for having me.

1007
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:32,840
Speaker 4: This was an absolute delight, and your breadth of knowledge

1008
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 4: about the Housewives is truly you know, you deserve a

1009
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 4: Nobel Peace Prize.

1010
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 5: That's it for this week's episode.

1011
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 4: Next week, we're talking chap Equitic, the film starring Kate Mara,

1012
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 4: Jason Clark, and Ed Helms.

1013
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,319
Speaker 5: So subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all

1014
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 5: Things Kennedy every week