1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: today's best minds. And Trump attorney Jenna Allis has blood 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: guilty in the Georgia election interference case. 5 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 2: Can I just say she tweeted me and things to me? 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 2: You see how this works? Right? 7 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: We have such an interesting show today. The Atlantics McKay 8 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: coppins joins us to spill the tea on his new 9 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: biography of the One, the Only Mitt Romney entitled Romney 10 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: I Reckoning. Then we'll talk to Pro Publica's Andy Krole 11 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: and he'll tell us about the never ending saga of 12 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: Leonard Leo. 13 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 2: And his corruption of our Supreme Court. 14 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: But first we have legendary campaign manager and actually he's 15 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: quite handsome, the author of The Conspiracy to in America 16 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: Five Ways my old party is driving our democracy to 17 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: autocracy from the Lincoln Project's Stuart Stevens. Welcome back to 18 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: Fast Politics, Stuart Stevens. 19 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 3: Very smile. I appreciate you asking me to the party. 20 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 2: Stuart Stevens. 21 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: Tell us what this book is called and give us 22 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: the TLDR. 23 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 3: The book. It's called The Conspiracy in America Five ways 24 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 3: my old party is driving our democracy to autocracy. It's 25 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 3: a book I never thought I would write, and follows 26 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 3: in the category of a book I can imagine not writing. Now. 27 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 3: What really struck me was when you read about how 28 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 3: democracies fall into autocracy, and there's so much great work 29 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:41,039 Speaker 3: that's been done on that by Ruth ben Giat, Jim Mershues. 30 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 3: They always use me five elements that are present, and 31 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 3: we talk about each of these five, but I don't 32 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 3: think that we talk about them collectively enough and how 33 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 3: they interface, sometimes deliberately and sometimes just synergistically. So that's 34 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 3: why I. 35 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: Wrote the book explained to us a little bit about 36 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:03,639 Speaker 1: what the sort of the scariest, most autocratic kind of 37 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: things you've observed are. 38 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. So the five elements are support of a major party, 39 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 3: which certainly the trumpest movement has financiers, they have money 40 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 3: out the wazoo, the Peter Tiels of the world. Whatever 41 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 3: they need, propagandists which they have. We all know about that. 42 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 3: You need shock troops, which they certainly have and which 43 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 3: are on January seventh. And you need and I think 44 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 3: this is really the most troubling, you need a legal 45 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 3: theory to justify what you're doing. So if Georgia passes 46 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 3: a law that says it's okay to overturn the popular vote, 47 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 3: when they do it, it'll be perfectly legal. And there 48 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 3: is a tremendous effort out there to change the legal 49 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 3: structure of our entire electoral system. 50 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: I want you to explain to us a little bit 51 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: about where you think we are sort of in this 52 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: autocratic there's sort of what happens. And we've talked tor 53 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: with Ben Giett about this is there's sort of an 54 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: auto not even system, if that makes sense, but there's 55 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: sort of stages of autocracy. What stage do you think 56 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: we're in and how do you think we can sort 57 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: of slow it down or stop it? 58 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a great question, you know. I think part 59 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 3: of the problem, Molly when we talk about this is 60 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 3: how to talk about it without sounding alarmists. But to me, 61 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 3: it's like a serious pandemic. Whatever you say at the 62 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 3: beginning is going to sound alarmist, but in the end 63 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 3: is likely to prove inadequate. And I think that's where 64 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 3: we are. I think if Donald Trump is elected or 65 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 3: Trump want to be like DeSantis, it will be the 66 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 3: last election that we can recognize as an American election. 67 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 3: The danger here is the inability to imagine this happening. 68 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 3: The problem with the unimaginable is it's hard to imagine. 69 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 3: Whenever democracy slide into autocracy, there is always an aspect 70 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 3: that those who support democracy can never imagine it happening. 71 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 3: That's where I think we are. And there are these 72 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 3: buffoonish characters out there that we see every day, the 73 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 3: Marjorie Taylor Greenies and Matt Gates Lauren beauparts. But in 74 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 3: a way, I think that serves a purpose because it 75 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 3: makes it easy to dismiss this moment and this movement 76 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 3: as buffoonish, and it's not. These are dead serious people. 77 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 3: They're very patient people, and they think they're going to win, 78 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 3: and they feel that there's an urgency about it. At 79 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 3: the root of this is they believe that democracy now 80 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 3: has become their enemy. Because the way the country is changing. 81 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 3: Trump's coalitions eighty five percent white in a country that's 82 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,239 Speaker 3: sixty percent white and rapidly changing. We're headed to minority 83 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 3: majority country. And the way we already are, those who 84 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 3: are sixteen years and under the majority are non white, 85 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 3: and odds are really really good they'll still be non 86 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 3: white when they turn eighteen start voting, and that's what 87 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 3: terrifies them. And they know that they have a short 88 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 3: window here to an essence, curate the vote, change the 89 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 3: way that we vote, and they are about the business 90 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 3: of doing it. It's going to continue if Trump loses, 91 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 3: if Biden is reelected, because they are very patient and 92 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 3: their model for this is really the Federalist Society. You know, 93 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 3: Federalist Society began I think it was nineteen eighty four 94 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 3: a week in conference and even with the sort of 95 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 3: a noign title of the Future of the Conservative Judiciary, 96 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 3: and out of that grew the Federalist Society. And it's 97 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 3: hard to look around today and think the federal Society 98 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 3: didn't win. 99 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, they definitely won. 100 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: Let's talk about right now kind of where you are, 101 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: what you're seeing, what you're thinking. 102 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. For me, it's extraordinarily sobering and not a good 103 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 3: feeling to look at all these people I helped to 104 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 3: let and see how they've really collapsed. You know, I 105 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 3: will never ask myself again how nineteen thirties Germany happened. 106 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 3: And you know, there's sort of a trope we can't 107 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 3: talk about thirty Germany or World War two, because I 108 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 3: didn't reduces everything to sort of absurdity. I feel exactly 109 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 3: the opposite. I think we have to talk about. It 110 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 3: doesn't mean it's going to end in a world war. 111 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 3: It's not going to end with a hundred million people. 112 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 3: But this process of good people who know better, who 113 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 3: feel that they can interject an element into politics to 114 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,359 Speaker 3: serve their needs of the moment and control it is 115 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 3: completely anallygous to nineteen thirties Germany and the Republican Party 116 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 3: realized that they had lost touch with a low frequency voter, 117 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 3: white voter. When I did from Mitt Romney in twenty twelve, 118 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 3: you could see these voters in a poll and they 119 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 3: could have cared less about what we were talking about. Yeah, idea, 120 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 3: we're going to have, you know, strong on Russia, where 121 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 3: lower taxes, smaller government. They could have cared less about that. 122 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 3: And to reach those voters, you need to do what 123 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 3: Trump did. You needed to go out and have a 124 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 3: racist message, as enophobic message. You need to attack Muslims. 125 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 3: And of course, you know, I think people have a 126 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 3: much better sense of Romney now. I mean if you 127 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 3: had walked into Mitt Romney's office and talked about it. 128 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 3: You know, he would have thrown you out. What's interesting 129 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 3: to me, and while y and sobering, and I think 130 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 3: it's humbling to me, is I would have bet anything 131 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 3: that if you did this as Trump, the voters you gained, 132 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 3: you would have lost more at the upper end of 133 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 3: college educated Republican. 134 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: I want to talk about that a little more because 135 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: what you just said is really interesting. 136 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 2: What you're saying. 137 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: These college educated Republicans are willing to go along with 138 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: things they know are wrong, Yes, because they think they'll 139 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: get things they want. 140 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 2: So talk about that more. 141 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 3: Well, you know, all this talk about Trump being a 142 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 3: working class candidate has always been false. In sixteen, he 143 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 3: didn't carry if you consider working class voters those who 144 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 3: make say fifty thousand under or more thany five thousand 145 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 3: and under. He won white voters category, but he didn't 146 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 3: win the majority of the voters because the majority of 147 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 3: those people are not white. And then in twenty the 148 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 3: only economic group that he carried a majority of is 149 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 3: those who make over one hundred thousand dollars a year. 150 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 3: And I think that it's a combination of factors. I 151 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 3: think that these are people who are troubled more than 152 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 3: they like to admit. By a chain America, I think 153 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 3: that they see this sort of specter of an assumed 154 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 3: power that comes from being white and wealthy as being 155 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 3: endangered and they don't want to be the person who's 156 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 3: standing in the Capitol in a camp all switch sweatshirt. 157 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 3: But that person is voting for the same person that 158 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 3: they are, and that's ultimately what matters. The Lincoln Project. 159 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 3: And I can say this with ad any false modesty 160 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 3: because I wasn't involved in founding a Lincoln Project, that 161 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 3: group of voters that sought Republicans who were the last 162 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 3: to join Trump, mostly after the Comy letter in sixteen. 163 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 3: That was the target of the Lincoln Project. And when 164 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 3: you look at these numbers, bid and carry just enough 165 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 3: of those voters to make a difference so he could 166 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 3: win states like Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin. And I think that 167 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 3: there is a greater opportunity to expand that for a 168 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 3: lot of reasons. January seventh is one reason I think 169 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 3: it genuinely terrified a lot of people. I think the 170 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 3: Dobbs decision is a huge factory. But still you look 171 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 3: at poles and Donald Trump is tied or beating Joe Biden, 172 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 3: and if he's doing that in a popular vote, he's 173 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 3: going to win the electoral college easily. 174 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: Certainly, we're all very worried about these polls. But do 175 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: we think these polls are wrong? 176 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 4: No. 177 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 3: I think these polls ultimately don't matter because people aren't voting. 178 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: Right, it's four hundred days away, and it's also a 179 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: national poll. 180 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,439 Speaker 3: I've worked at five presidential campaigns, and the one day 181 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 3: I think it's a constant. Whatever you think is going 182 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 3: to happen a year out there happen. We really don't 183 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 3: know what the race is going to be about. I 184 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 3: think that it is a mistake to look at Biden's 185 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 3: numbers and compare them to a pre Trump political world. 186 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 3: So in twenty twelve, on election day, Romney and Ohama 187 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 3: both had favorables of fifty percent, right, I don't think 188 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 3: we're going to see that again for a long time. So, 189 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 3: you know, you look at Biden's numbers, he's at forty three, 190 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 3: forty two, forty four, bouncing around in some trading range there, 191 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 3: and you go, well, wait a second. You can't wait 192 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 3: if you're incumber president unless you're up to like forty 193 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 3: nine or fifty I don't think that's true. It could 194 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 3: be true, but I don't think it has to be true. 195 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: What do you think about this Dean Phillips just to 196 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 1: announce that he is going to I mean, nobody's ever 197 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: fucking heard of that guy, but he's going to primary Biden. 198 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: And then there's also like other people like Dean Phillips, 199 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: for example, RFK Junior is going to run as an independent. 200 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 1: He probably pulls more from Trump, it turns out right, 201 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: And then No Labels is fantasizing about, you know, doing 202 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: whatever they can to hurt Biden. So I mean, how 203 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 1: worried are you about all of those scenarios? 204 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 3: On a scale of one to ten, I'm at one hundred. 205 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,319 Speaker 2: Oh good, So relax is what you're saying. 206 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 3: Listen, I had a going out of business sale for 207 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 3: my Optimism, which her Republican Party. It is critical that 208 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 3: this be a binary choice between Trump and Biden. I 209 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 3: am suspicious even of RFK Junior because pols may show 210 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 3: now that he takes some work from Trump. I think 211 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 3: you know, these people, Molly guess no better or not. 212 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 3: You know, there is a certain suburban voter out there 213 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,839 Speaker 3: that is anti vax young and benefited a lot from them. 214 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 3: They thought the lockdowns for too much. I think that 215 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 3: if Rfkjunior cleaned up his act and seemed like a 216 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 3: reasonable person a little bit more that if he got 217 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 3: in debates, if they have debates, he could end up 218 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 3: pulling more from Biden. Because I think that there are 219 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 3: a lot of voters out there. Obviously we know this. 220 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 3: They don't like the choice, but it is the choice. 221 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 3: And it is about the business of the Biden campaign 222 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 3: to hold up a mirror and say, is this who 223 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 3: you are? This is who you are if you vote 224 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 3: for Donald Trump, and it doesn't matter if you find 225 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 3: him distasteful or this stupid thing you don't like to 226 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 3: tweet or what he says. If you vote for Donald Trump, 227 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 3: you are endorsing all of the worst of Donald Trump. 228 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 3: And is this really the country you want to live in? 229 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 3: And I think that's a very powerful message. And Biden 230 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 3: ultimately can win a referendum on democracy, and he can 231 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 3: win a referendum on decency. And you know, I think 232 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 3: one of the things that happened in twenty eighteen that 233 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 3: really benefited Democrats just when Biden went out and started 234 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 3: talking about democracy and sort of put it on the ballot. 235 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, that actually turned out to work really well from 236 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: even though a lot of the pundon industrial complex said 237 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:20,319 Speaker 1: it wouldn't right. 238 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 4: You know. 239 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 3: I mean, the one thing I know about politics is 240 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 3: if you're in a campaign and you want voters to 241 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 3: care about something, you have to prove you care about 242 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 3: You have to go out and talk about it and 243 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 3: make it an issue. And you know that people say, well, 244 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 3: it's going to be about grocery prices or gas prices. 245 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 3: Well it could have been, but it doesn't have to be. 246 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 3: And if it is, that's a race you're going to lose. 247 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 3: So you know, if I was sitting in that room, 248 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 3: I would say, look, we may not win a race 249 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:47,959 Speaker 3: about democracy. We may not be able to make the 250 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 3: race about democracy, but it's our best shot and that's 251 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,079 Speaker 3: what we should be doing and it's important. So I 252 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:56,719 Speaker 3: think that they understand this in the Biden campaign. I 253 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 3: actually have a lot of respect for the Biden campaign. 254 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 3: It's incredibly difficult to beat Incumber president. You know, I 255 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 3: tried in twenty twelve but failed, and they I think 256 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 3: are very patient campaign. I don't think they can. 257 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 5: So it's going to be going to be a race though, 258 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 5: that is unlike any other that in our lifetime or 259 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 5: any we've had in America, because you're going to have 260 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 5: one party that is a normal, traditional American political party 261 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 5: that will be putting forth a center left to gender, 262 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 5: and the other party doesn't believe that the Ucumber president 263 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 5: is legal. Yeah, so they think we live in an 264 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 5: occupied country. No, it's absolutely beyond stupid. 265 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 2: What do you do with that? I don't know, it's 266 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:37,119 Speaker 2: very troubling. 267 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: I'm listening to you and I'm thinking, actually, this is 268 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: really quite bad, even though I think about this every day. 269 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 3: But for West w Yeah, we live in a country 270 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 3: with four hundred million guns. 271 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:50,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, the guns thing is bad. 272 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 3: As a Southern friend of mine likes to say, what's 273 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 3: the difference between Fort something in January seventh? Well, nobody 274 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 3: died at Fort something. Yeah, you know, I often think, 275 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 3: what is it like to work in White House and 276 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 3: work on congressional as on trying to help Biden pass 277 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 3: something like infrastructure. So you go up on the hills 278 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 3: and you're talking to a lot of people. It's not 279 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 3: that they don't like your boss, so they don't agree 280 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 3: with your boss. They don't think your boss is president. Right, 281 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 3: I mean, how do you begin to do that? And 282 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 3: yet Biden has accomplished tremendous things. I mean, I think 283 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 3: Biden has been a great president. 284 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: It's sort of the unreality of this Republican. 285 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 3: Party, completely divorced from reality. They live in a different world. Now, 286 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 3: in that world, it all makes sense, right, you have 287 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 3: to just get inside the world. It's like crop circuits. 288 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 3: Once you understand it, then you really know what it's about. 289 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 3: So they live in a world in which obviously Joe 290 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 3: Biden didn't win this election. I mean you even need 291 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 3: to talk about that. I mean, how can vote for 292 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 3: Joe Biden. He can't even have a rally with a 293 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 3: thousand people. So our guy had the election stolen. That's 294 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 3: what they believe. And now because he's they know he's 295 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 3: going to win. The only way they can stop him. 296 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 3: And the only way that they can stop the legally 297 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 3: elected president from taking office again is to put him 298 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 3: in jail. So every time he gets indicted, it's just 299 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 3: one more effort of the deep state to stop Donald Trump. 300 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 3: He's that powerful. And once you start believing that, and 301 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 3: your friends believe that, and you can say this aloud 302 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 3: at a tailgating party or a football game and people 303 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 3: don't think that you're a lunatic. It becomes self reinforcing. 304 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 3: And the failure of the Republican Party is that all 305 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 3: of the people that you and I know, the same 306 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 3: people who are elected officials who think this is just 307 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 3: that shit crazy, they're not saying, for the most part 308 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 3: that it's bat shit crazy. They're just remaining silent. 309 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 2: Stuart Stevens, Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. 310 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: Moe McKay cobbins is a writer at the Atlantic and 311 00:15:55,640 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: author of Romney Reckoning Welcome Too Fast Politics. 312 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 2: McKay coppins, thanks for having me. I'm delighted to have you. 313 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: I want you to talk to us as much as 314 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: you feel comfortable, but give us more because you like me. 315 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: Let's be honest about how you got to write this book, 316 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: because I feel like there's an interesting backstory here. 317 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 6: Yeah, it is kind of interesting. I mean, I had 318 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 6: covered mid Romney for ten years, and when I covered 319 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 6: his presidential campaign, you know, he was known as this 320 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 6: highly cautious, highly controlled, highly calculating candidate, right, and that 321 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 6: does not make for a very compelling subject for a biography. 322 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 6: So you know, if I had had the opportunity to 323 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 6: do this book ten years ago. I don't think I 324 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 6: would have done it. But I had been talking to 325 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 6: him since he arrived in Washington as a senator. I'd 326 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 6: profiled him for The Atlantic, and I could tell after 327 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 6: January sixth that something was going on with him, like 328 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 6: something had been knocked loose by watching the leaders of 329 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 6: his party attempt to overthrow a presidential election, and like 330 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 6: he just seemed like he was in this soul searching mode. 331 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 6: He was asking difficult questions about what his party had become, 332 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 6: what was happening to the country. He genuinely believed that 333 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 6: American democracy is more fragile than we realize, and could 334 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 6: see the seeds of its kind of demise, and he 335 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 6: was sort of ready to unburden himself. So I basically 336 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 6: just went to him and said, look, I think you're 337 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 6: in an interesting moment right now. I think you're in 338 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 6: a kind of unusual headspace for a sitting politician. I 339 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 6: want to write this book. I want to write your biography, 340 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 6: but I only want to do it if you're ready 341 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 6: to be totally candid, right like right, tell all the stories. 342 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 6: And if you're not ready to do that, that's fine, 343 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 6: maybe we revisited down the line, but to my pleasant surprise, 344 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 6: he decided to just go all in. He gave me 345 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 6: his journals, he gave me very sensitive emails with high 346 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 6: profile Republicans, and from the very beginning I could tell 347 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 6: that he was ready to kind of take this seriously. 348 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: You had enough of a sense that if he said 349 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: he was a man of his word, and that if 350 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: he said he was really going to go all because 351 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: I think so much about as someone who has written 352 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: about my entire life by my mother, which made me 353 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: a psychopath. 354 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 3: We love you for it, Molly, at. 355 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: Least someone does. But people are never happy with what's 356 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: written about them. And I was thinking about this because 357 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: I I've been reading the book, and I've been reading 358 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: the pieces about the book, and this is like one 359 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 1: of the very, very very few political books where it 360 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: actually tells the real stuff. So did you like sit 361 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 1: around freaking out, thinking like, he's going to hate this. 362 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 6: The deal that we had was this was not going 363 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 6: to be an authorized biography in the sense that he 364 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 6: had any editorial control of the final products, Like, but 365 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 6: I would let him read it before it was published 366 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 6: and right, and that I would have kind of a 367 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 6: good faith conversation with him if he thought there was 368 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 6: anything that was you know, lacking context or inaccurate or whatever. 369 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,120 Speaker 6: I will say, like as a journalist, as a writer 370 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 6: author like I, I tried to keep that out of 371 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 6: my head while I was writing the draft, right, Like, 372 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 6: I wanted to just tell the story as clearly and 373 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 6: accurately and as fair mindedly as possible, knowing that there 374 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 6: were going to be things in this book he didn't like. 375 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 6: And I don't think I'm you know, betraying any confidences 376 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 6: by saying that he definitely didn't like some things in 377 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,640 Speaker 6: the book, tell me. 378 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: Kind of broadly or not so broadly. Where he sort 379 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: of pushed back. 380 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 6: Yeah, I think there were two things. I think the 381 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 6: first reaction was just that I worked on this with 382 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:32,679 Speaker 6: him for two years. I interviewed him a course of 383 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 6: two years. I had all these journals, A lot of 384 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 6: our meetings were you know, he's a lonely guy in Washington. 385 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 6: He doesn't have a lot of friends in his own party. 386 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 6: His family doesn't visit him. 387 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: So any's seating those fish filets with the barbecue. 388 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 6: Salmon ketch up sandwiches every night. But read the book 389 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 6: if you if the listeners don't know the reference to that. 390 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 6: But he would spend a lot of time with me 391 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 6: just kind of venting, and I think sometimes he just 392 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 6: enjoyed the company and kind of forgot who he was 393 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 6: talking to. And so when the book, I think he 394 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 6: was taken aback by how much he had told me. 395 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 6: He started to worry a little about, like, Wow, people 396 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 6: are really gonna hate me when this book comes in. 397 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 2: But those people already hated him. 398 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 6: And that's what I tried to remind him, and interestingly, 399 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 6: I think that's what Anne, his wife is also reminded him, Like, 400 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 6: you don't really care what Josh Holly thinks of you, 401 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 6: You don't care what ad Vance thinks of you. 402 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 3: Like that. 403 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 6: Ultimately, I think that argument won the day. The other 404 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 6: side of it that I think is more interesting is 405 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 6: a lot of this book deals with the rationalizations he made, 406 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 6: especially in the kind of first you know period of 407 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 6: his career when he was trying to become president, how 408 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 6: he would talk himself into doing things, crossing lines that 409 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 6: he maybe wouldn't have otherwise crossed, or take positions that 410 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 6: he wasn't sure he totally agreed with, and he after 411 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 6: reading the book felt like I gave disproportionate weight to 412 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 6: those episodes, and that, you know, it made it seem 413 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 6: like his entire life and career was kind of relativistic 414 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 6: and you know, unprincipled, And I don't think think that's true. 415 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 6: I think he's actually an uncommonly diligent, conscientious guy for somebody, right. 416 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 6: But the reason that I paid attention to that stuff 417 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 6: so much is because I think it kind of infects 418 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,959 Speaker 6: all of our politics. I think that the reason our 419 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 6: kind of democracy is in the sorry shape that it's 420 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 6: in right now is in large part because all these 421 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 6: elected leaders have, you know, found ways to rationalize doing 422 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 6: things that they know are wrong. And so having a 423 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 6: subject like Romney who is willing to reflect honestly and 424 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 6: kind of grapple with that reality and those episodes I 425 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 6: thought was a really telling insight into the psychology of 426 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 6: the American political class, and so I focused on it 427 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 6: a lot. 428 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 1: Were you disappointed when he announced he wasn't going to 429 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: run again and did you try to convince him to stay. 430 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 6: I steadfastly was neutral on the question of whether he 431 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 6: should run again, because it's one of those things whereas 432 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 6: a biographer journalist like you don't want to have too 433 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 6: much influence over what decisions they ma. But we talked 434 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 6: about it a lot. I knew he was leaning this 435 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 6: way for a year before he announced it. 436 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 2: Because he's sort of unreplaceable. 437 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 6: Yeah, well and that and that's the thing. But the 438 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 6: problem is the handful of senators on both the right 439 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,239 Speaker 6: and the left that he does get along with, and 440 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 6: he does feel like or at least trying to pass legislation, 441 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 6: do you know, trying to do the work that they 442 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 6: were sent to Washington to do. They're either gone or 443 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 6: on their way out. So he's increasingly isolated. He feels like, 444 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 6: as long as Republicans are in control of any branch 445 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 6: of government, the likelihood of getting any laws passed is 446 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 6: pretty minuscule. And you know, the more human side of 447 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 6: this is he's he's getting older. He is I write 448 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 6: about this in the book. He's kind of haunted by this, 449 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 6: this the like premonitions of his own death. And this 450 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 6: goes all the way back to his you know, youth. 451 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 2: But he's always had this weird haunting, right. 452 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 6: Yes, he had a you know, went through a traumatic 453 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 6: car accident when he was a Mormon missionary in France. 454 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 6: Where one of the passengers in the car died, and 455 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 6: has kind of ever since then had these premonitions that 456 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 6: he would die of a sudden and violent death. And 457 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 6: you know, as you can imagine, on January sixth, that 458 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 6: that thought was going through his mind when he narrowly 459 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 6: escaped them up. But you know, he's now getting older 460 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,479 Speaker 6: and he doesn't know when he's going to die. His 461 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 6: wife has multiple sclerosis. She's in good health now, but 462 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 6: he wants to spend the last few years he has 463 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 6: that are good years, not sitting in the Senate caucus 464 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 6: lunches with Josh Holly and Ted Cruz, but with his 465 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 6: family and grandkids. 466 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 1: And I understand, but he did sounds like he has 467 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 1: post traumatic stress from the car accident. I don't want 468 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 1: to pooh pooh premonitions. 469 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 6: But he thinks about it a lot. He thinks about 470 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 6: what his death might look like. I think that it 471 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,880 Speaker 6: is interestingly, though, has informed this last stage of his 472 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 6: career in a really helpful way, because or he's been 473 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 6: thinking about his own mortality. The more he's kind of 474 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 6: has the possibility of his death kind of front of mind, 475 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 6: it makes him think less about how he gets along 476 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 6: with his car in the Senate or the next re election, 477 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 6: and more about like how his obituary will be written, 478 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 6: what is legacy? And the more that he thinks about 479 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 6: those things, the more he's able to kind of do 480 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 6: the hard, brave things like be the only Republican to 481 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 6: vote to convict the president from his own party, rather 482 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 6: than worrying about the day to day politics. 483 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 2: Right, you're both Mormons. 484 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 1: How much do you think that informs some of his 485 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: decisions around politics? 486 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 2: And how much was that a bond for both of you? 487 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 6: Oh, there's no question. I mean I would be silly 488 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 6: to deny that that wasn't part of how we kind 489 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,360 Speaker 6: of got to know each other and understood each other. 490 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 3: Yeah. 491 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 2: I mean I say this as a Jew. 492 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: I'm not a religious Jew, but lately I had a 493 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: friend who is a fancy British Jew and she was 494 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,719 Speaker 1: weeping to me about how lonely she felt, and I 495 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 1: just wonder how much religion and connection are relevant. 496 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 6: No, we understood things about each other, not just being Mormon, 497 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 6: but we both grew up in places where there were 498 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 6: very few Mormons. He grew up in Michigan. I grew 499 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 6: up in Massachusetts. And one thing he said to me was, 500 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 6: you know, when you grow up Mormon in a place 501 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 6: where there aren't a lot of people of our faith, 502 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 6: and this is probably true of other faiths as well, 503 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 6: is that you learn how to be different in ways 504 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 6: that are important to you. And that resonated with me 505 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 6: a lot. I felt like I certainly felt that way, 506 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 6: you know, drinking diet coke while my friends were drinking 507 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 6: beer at parties in high school. You know, like that 508 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 6: all those little moments like pile up over a lifetime 509 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 6: and help you and can prepare you to take difficult 510 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 6: positions that are you know, politically inconvenient or make other 511 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 6: people dislike you, but you believe are important. And Ronny 512 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 6: hasn't always followed that instinct, but I think he is 513 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 6: in this last age of his career, and I think 514 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 6: that are talking about he felt free to talk about 515 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 6: those things and not have to explain all of it. 516 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 6: We could use a shorthand with each other, and I 517 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 6: do think that helped make our interviews and our conversations 518 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 6: more fruitful. 519 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: There's so much staff in this book that people are like, 520 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: oh my, you know, it's jaw drop after jaw drop, 521 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: and I don't want to leave any of them out 522 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: so and I'm sure I will, but I just want 523 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: you to talk about the Romney warning McConnell of the 524 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: dangers of January sixth. 525 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 2: That must have been something. 526 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 6: Yeah, Well, Romney has gotten a call from Senator Angus 527 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 6: King a few days before January sixth, who said, I 528 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 6: just talked to a senior defense official who told me 529 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 6: they're monitoring online chatter from extremists on the right who 530 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 6: are saying that they're going to do some very bad 531 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 6: stuff on January sixth, and mid Romney's name had been 532 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 6: popping up, like you know, as Ael target. 533 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: And everybody's gotten some degree of that call in this 534 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,719 Speaker 1: Trump world. I mean, like I got a call from 535 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: I'm sure you've gotten calls from the security people at 536 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: the Atlantic that are like you're on a four Chan thread. 537 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, so, I mean that's pretty chilling. 538 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 6: I think it was that it was pegged to the 539 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 6: specific date when the president, you know, was going to 540 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 6: come and rally his supporters about stopping the steal. When 541 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 6: I write about in the book, though, is that Mitt 542 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 6: after hanging up from that call, immediately texted Mitch McConnell 543 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 6: and said, you know, I just got off the phone 544 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 6: with Angus King. Here's what he told me. I'm concerned 545 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 6: that people are going to storm the Capitol on January sixth, 546 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,360 Speaker 6: among other things, and that were not prepared. I want 547 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 6: to make sure that we're prepared for this. Mitch McConnell 548 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 6: never responded to that text. 549 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 1: Right, did he feel like Mitch McConnell never got it? 550 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: I mean, he did he have any thoughts? 551 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 6: You knows the Mitch mcconald got it. Look, I think 552 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 6: that this was a moment, you know, it was kind 553 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 6: of the final stage of this idea that, like that 554 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,360 Speaker 6: famous quote from the Washington Post was from a Republican strategist, right, 555 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 6: let him play gone. I think it was like, it's 556 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 6: a harm in humoring him, Right, Yeah, what's the harmon 557 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,679 Speaker 6: humoring him? That's what was happening, Like, Yeah, we know 558 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 6: Trump lost, but you know, we can let him say 559 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 6: whatever he wants to say. There's no point in making 560 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 6: him mad at us now. And I think Mitch mcconnald 561 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 6: was playing that same game, and he didn't want to 562 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 6: make a stir, rock the boat whatever in the final 563 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 6: days of Trump's presidency. And what we got was what 564 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 6: happened on January sixth, and Romney, I mean, one of 565 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 6: the things is even still when you ask him about 566 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 6: January sixth, he gets so viscerally angry describing what happened, 567 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 6: and not just the lies that were told and people 568 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,479 Speaker 6: like Josh Holly and Ted Cruz amplifying those lives, but 569 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 6: just the fact that they weren't ready and they knew 570 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,160 Speaker 6: this was happening. But like you know, when the senators 571 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 6: were evacuated from the chamber, the police didn't know where 572 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 6: to take them, They didn't have any directions for them. 573 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 6: There literally just had been no planning for this scenario, 574 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 6: even though Mitt Romney had been warned and subsequently warned 575 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 6: McConnell about it, you know, this exact scenario. They just 576 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 6: they weren't ready. And Romney still gets mad about that 577 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 6: when he talks about. 578 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 2: And Liz Cheney too. Speaking of things that many people. 579 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: Agree on, Mitt Romney believes that Sarah Palin is a moron. 580 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 2: Discuss so he was vetted. 581 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 6: Mitt Romney was one of several Republicans vetted by John 582 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 6: McCain to be the vice president. 583 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 2: Jesus losing out to Sarah Palin. 584 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 6: That's not good, right, So, but it's funny because he 585 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 6: tells me about OLW When McCain called him to tell him, 586 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 6: you know, you didn't get it, we went a different direction. 587 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 6: He said, okay, that's fine. Who did you choose? And 588 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 6: McCain said, Sarah Palin from Alaska. Romney immediately was just like, 589 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 6: are you kidding me? Because of Romby and at gotten 590 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 6: to know Palin a little bit when he was head 591 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 6: of the National Governors Association and recalled plan as the 592 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 6: least impressive Republican governor. He knew she had no grasp 593 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 6: of policy, no grasp of how campaigning worked, and like 594 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 6: he was kind of stunned that that's who McCain would pick. 595 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 6: But it's interesting. He told me that watching her on 596 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 6: the campaign trail and the way that she pushed the 597 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 6: boundaries of acceptable political rhetoric and whipped up these crowds 598 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 6: into a frenzy, it was kind of his first illustration 599 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 6: of what the base of his party actually wanted, and 600 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 6: it was it was sort of eye opening for him 601 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 6: in a sad way. 602 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's right, and I think that 603 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: that's how the road to Donald Trump is paved with her. 604 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: So he's so candid and he's actually quite funny about people. 605 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 6: He is well. I mean, his journals are actually like 606 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 6: often very funny and withering takes on various prominent Republicans. 607 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 6: I mean, there's a quote in his journal I can't 608 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 6: remember it exactly, but about Nuke Gingrich where he says 609 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 6: an thinks he's a megalomaniac and needs a psychologist. He 610 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 6: calls Rick Perry a low iq prima Donna. Yeah, he, 611 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 6: you know, certainly has a lot of stories about Donald 612 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 6: Trump with me where you know, he said, you know, 613 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 6: for a while, I tried to kind of indulge this 614 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 6: idea that Donald Trump, you know, maybe he didn't read, 615 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 6: and maybe he wasn't capable of like complex analysis, but 616 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 6: he was a savant with certain things. That's the thing 617 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 6: that Trump allies would always tell me is that after time, 618 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 6: I just came to the conclusion that he's just really 619 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 6: not smart. 620 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: There's a Trump writer who writes about Trump all the time, 621 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: and he always tells me that he's just very limited. 622 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: That's the phrase I love that Romney says, Lou. 623 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 2: Is a moron. Fox isn't enabler to Stuart Stevens. 624 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 3: Speaking of Leujobs. 625 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Lou Dobbs, one of the absolutely dumbest people 626 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: on television, which you know, one of the big Again, 627 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: Oprah tries to get Mit to run with her as 628 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: his running mate, discuss is that really true? 629 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 2: I heard that. 630 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 6: I was like, what, well, so there's now been there's 631 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 6: been a little controversy around this place. So this was 632 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 6: in Mitt Romney's journal in November of twenty nineteen. He writes, 633 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 6: the journal entry literally begins Oprah call today. As you 634 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 6: can imagine going through his journals, I. 635 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 2: Was like, huh, what appen? So Oprah? 636 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 6: According to his journal from that time his contemporaneous notes 637 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 6: from that time, she called to urge him to run 638 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 6: as an independent in twenty twenty because she wasn't feeling 639 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 6: great about the Democratic options. This is during the Democratic primaries. 640 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 6: She wasn't sure if any of them could beat Trump, 641 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 6: and she had been approached by Michael Bloomberg about running 642 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 6: with him as an independent god and so she said, actually, 643 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 6: let me go ask Mitt Romney instead. I would if 644 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 6: you like more than Michael Bloomberg. According to his journal, 645 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 6: the idea was that they would run on a unity 646 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 6: ticket together Midd and Oprah. After this claim came out, 647 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 6: and Oprah didn't engage when I asked her about it 648 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 6: when I was reporting the book. But after this weaked 649 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 6: out in the news. Oprah put out a statement saying 650 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 6: that she did call him that day and urge him 651 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 6: to run as an independent, but that she wasn't planning 652 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 6: to be on the ticket. And Romney says that she 653 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 6: had suggested Oprah be on the ticket, but mid apparently 654 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 6: thought that it was serious enough that he wrote about 655 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 6: it in his journal, but he demurred because he didn't 656 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 6: think that it would actually work. He thought that its 657 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 6: independent ticket. And I still think this is true today, 658 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 6: that an independent ticket would probably help Donald Trump or 659 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 6: the you know, the Democrat. 660 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 2: Yes, agreed. 661 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 6: Here's the question, Molly, would you vote for a Romney 662 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 6: Winfrey ticket or a Winfrey Romney ticket. 663 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 2: I can't even get involved in this. 664 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: I'm so freaked out by the entire conversation. I do 665 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: want to add my little bit of I don't know 666 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: what this is. When I was a kid, I was 667 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,719 Speaker 1: once in my mom's house in Connecticut, which she no 668 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: longer has, and I picked with the phone, the landline, 669 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,239 Speaker 1: which no one has anymore, and it was Oprah and 670 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 1: she was like this, is Oprah And I was like, no, 671 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: it's not. And she was like, no, no it is. 672 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: And I was like no, and so there you go. 673 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: She was like no, it really isn't. 674 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 2: I was like, now, wow. 675 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,479 Speaker 1: So by McKay coppin's book, and also Oprah makes her 676 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: own phone calls. 677 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 2: Thanks okay. 678 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: Andy Krall is a reporter at pro PUBLICA. Welcome too 679 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: Fast Politics. 680 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 4: Andy, great to be back. 681 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: I want you to explain the providence of this project first, 682 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: and then what this project is. 683 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 2: Second. 684 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 4: The providence has one point six billion reasons. And I'm 685 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 4: only partially joking here, right. You know, I'd followed Leonard 686 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 4: Leo during the Trump years. He was this strange, fascinating 687 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 4: guy who wore these, you know, incredibly fancy suits and 688 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 4: he had like the trained conductor pocket watch chain thing. 689 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 4: He was just a curious character who was behind the 690 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 4: scenes running like the only organized strategic thing of the 691 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 4: whole Trump administration, which was their strategy on. 692 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 2: Judges, right, which really worked out for them. 693 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 4: Really worked out for them. I mean Trump will go down, 694 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 4: as you know, one of the most prolific judge appointers 695 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 4: in history, given what he did in just four years. 696 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 4: Really what Leonard Leo did in four years, So he 697 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 4: was on my radar for that reason, like who is 698 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 4: this guy exactly and how did he sort of manage 699 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 4: to pull all this off in the hurricane shit storm 700 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 4: of the Trump administration. And then last year in August, 701 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 4: me and some colleagues here at Pro Publica sort of 702 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,959 Speaker 4: helped break the story a mysterious businessman in Chicago who 703 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,920 Speaker 4: made a donation to a Leonard Leo controlled group worth 704 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 4: one point six billion with a B one point six 705 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 4: billion dollars, essentially cementing Leonard Leo's status as like the 706 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 4: new kingmaker of the right. And it was at that 707 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 4: point that I just so we have to understand why 708 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 4: this guy is so influential and important that he would 709 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 4: get one point six billion dollars. So it's been a 710 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 4: labor of love of sorts for the last year, but 711 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,879 Speaker 4: I'm happy to say that we got these stories out 712 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 4: into the world. 713 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: That billion dollar donation just for a macstory for my 714 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 1: own edification here, what does make a person a so 715 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,760 Speaker 1: rich that they give a person a billion dollars? 716 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 2: And b what is that? And how did he get 717 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:49,439 Speaker 2: so rich? 718 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, in the House of Cards version of 719 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 4: this story, the donor would be you know, like a 720 00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 4: weapons contractor, or like a secret oil barren with like 721 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 4: a glass eye and a cool scar or something. But 722 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 4: in the world that we actually live in, the donor 723 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 4: is a guy named Barry Side, and he's basically the 724 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 4: power strip magnate of the United States, like the most 725 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 4: boring utilitarian product you can think of. If anyone is listening, 726 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 4: look at your power strip and if it says trip 727 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 4: light on it with two. 728 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 2: Piece, that's not how you spell trip In case you're wondering, 729 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 2: it is not. 730 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:31,759 Speaker 4: It is not a touch trip light does, but it 731 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,399 Speaker 4: is not how the rest of the English speaking world does. 732 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 1: Poor j You know, a joke is bad when Jesse 733 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: is like making sounds all right. 734 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:40,360 Speaker 3: Go on, ye. 735 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 4: This guy is Barryside is in Chicago. He's a cipher 736 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 4: in so many ways. He is not a sort of, 737 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 4: you know, a big public figure. He's not the guy 738 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 4: who goes to state dinners at the White House. He's 739 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 4: given tons of money to different causes on the conservative 740 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 4: slash libertarian side of things over the years, but he's 741 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 4: very secretive. He often gave his money through this thing 742 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,720 Speaker 4: called donors Trust, just basically. 743 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 2: Like isn't that the Koch brothers. 744 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 4: It's affiliated with them. Yeah. You basically you would give 745 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 4: your money to donors trust and they sort of wipe 746 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 4: the fingerprints off of the money and then they give 747 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,320 Speaker 4: it out to like Coke staff or Leonard Leo's stuff 748 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:22,879 Speaker 4: or that sort of thing. 749 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 3: You know. 750 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 4: And the reporting that we did basically pointed us to 751 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 4: this conclusion about Barry Side, which is he's really really 752 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 4: old in mid late eighties. 753 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 2: His kids are really mad at him. 754 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 4: No kids, that's the key. 755 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I on behalf of his children are really 756 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: mad at him. 757 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 4: His biography was so thin. When we started reporting that 758 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:48,840 Speaker 4: story about the one point six billion, we had the 759 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 4: same thought. We're like, has he no errors? Are they 760 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 4: not totally ticked off? Yeah? It turns out no. Wow, 761 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,720 Speaker 4: So Leonard Leo is a effectively the air here. Yeah. 762 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 4: And you know, the way it was described to us 763 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 4: was essentially, you know, look at what Leonard Leo has built. 764 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:11,400 Speaker 4: He built the Federalist Society into a juggernaut. He basically 765 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,279 Speaker 4: architected the six ' three Supreme Court majority. And a 766 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 4: guy like Barry Sides he's then and says, well, you know, 767 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 4: I bet he could take my money and deploy it 768 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 4: in a way to make conservatives and libertarians everywhere quite pleased. 769 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 2: And that is what happened. So explain to us a 770 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 2: little bit about the story here. 771 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, this donation happens. Obviously, it happens over sort of 772 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 4: a year long span because it's a lot of money. 773 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 4: And also the donation happened in a way that allowed 774 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 4: the barryside to basically avoid paying taxes, as. 775 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: I would hope as anyone. 776 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, I hate for them to have 777 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 2: to play pay taxes like the rest of us. 778 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 4: Yeah. And so when we uncovered this donation, which was 779 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,760 Speaker 4: the single largest known donation of its kind in American history, 780 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 4: at Pro Publica, you know, we decide it's time to 781 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 4: do the full treatment on Leonard Leo. And you know 782 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 4: what we found, I think is a really fascinating story 783 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 4: in that the guy is the architect of the Supreme 784 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 4: Court conservative majority. But that's just like one part of 785 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,680 Speaker 4: what he did, which is incredible to say because it's 786 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,359 Speaker 4: it's the freaking Supreme Court of the United States, But 787 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 4: it's really just one part of what he did. What 788 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 4: he also did was build this huge machine that could 789 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 4: influence who the Supreme Court justices are in Key state, 790 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 4: so Wisconsin, in North Carolina and Florida, you name it. 791 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 4: He built this sort of typeline conveyor belt of like 792 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 4: Junior Scalia's and Thomas's. 793 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 2: I'm excited for those guys to come down the pie. 794 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 4: Oh they're coming. Yeah. Yeah. He's helping put people in 795 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,359 Speaker 4: as attorneys general. He's helping put people in a solicitors 796 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:55,360 Speaker 4: general who are the sort of the robin to the 797 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 4: batman of the age. He's really got his influence spread 798 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:03,439 Speaker 4: across like the whole legal landscape, which I don't think 799 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 4: people understood, at least I did not understand until we 800 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:08,840 Speaker 4: sort of started down this path. 801 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 1: Tell me some of the sort of top lines here, 802 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:13,400 Speaker 1: the things that will keep. 803 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:13,919 Speaker 2: Me up at night. 804 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 4: Yeah. He has these relationships with Supreme Court justices that 805 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 4: are both totally unique, kind of troubling in some ways, 806 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,280 Speaker 4: and so essential to understanding how he's kind of built 807 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,879 Speaker 4: this thing, this machine that he's built. He's the one 808 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,839 Speaker 4: who's like helping bring justice Alito on the fishing trip 809 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,920 Speaker 4: to Alaska that my colleagues that Pro Public are reported 810 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 4: on every year when the Federal Society would have its 811 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 4: big annual conference, the sort of nerd prom of the 812 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 4: conservative legal world. Leo would have this like very small 813 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,439 Speaker 4: invite only VIP dinner at some fancy restaurant in DC. 814 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:54,719 Speaker 4: It would be him, it would be one or two 815 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:55,640 Speaker 4: of the justices. 816 00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 2: And these justices. Let's take a minute here. 817 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:02,759 Speaker 1: These justices are not Briar, you know, they're not I mean, 818 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:07,360 Speaker 1: Brier's not there anymore. But they're not Caggan, They're not Sonia. 819 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,839 Speaker 1: So to my heir, they are Alito and Thomas. 820 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:12,880 Speaker 4: And Scalia when he was alive. 821 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,359 Speaker 1: So I mean, these are the ones who are the 822 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,200 Speaker 1: most sort of bottom paid for continue. 823 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,279 Speaker 4: So at these dinners the other sort of you know, 824 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 4: there would be the Leo, some justices, some like kind 825 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,240 Speaker 4: of muckety MUCKs in the political world, like Scott Pruett 826 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:30,839 Speaker 4: when he was still a thing. 827 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,960 Speaker 1: Just for those of us who are keeping drag at home, 828 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 1: he was the head of the Environmental Protection Agency, but 829 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 1: he did not do much protecting. He also was one 830 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:46,640 Speaker 1: of the very few people in Trump world to have 831 00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,239 Speaker 1: to resign because of corruption. So imagine how corrupt you 832 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:51,799 Speaker 1: must be to have to do that. 833 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:56,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, like using your security detail to fly down the 834 00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 4: streets of Washington, d C. To go to dinner. Yeah, 835 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 4: levels of correction. Yeah, and that's actually pretty same compared 836 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 4: to the actual things he did. But yes, yes, so 837 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 4: people like that. And then the other sort of bucket 838 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,360 Speaker 4: of people at these dinners were donors to the Federal Society. 839 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,640 Speaker 4: Now you and your listeners will love this, but you 840 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 4: know one of the donors who would go to these 841 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:16,760 Speaker 4: dinners was George Conway. 842 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:21,480 Speaker 1: Yes, now, yes, now, King of the Resistance. I think, 843 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 1: and I've said this to George when he's been on 844 00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: this podcast, and I say this to him when we 845 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:26,960 Speaker 1: hang out alone. 846 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:28,320 Speaker 2: He is one of. 847 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,440 Speaker 1: The people who is the architect of all of this, 848 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:32,120 Speaker 1: so he has to repent. 849 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 4: I'm sure he loves them. 850 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:36,120 Speaker 2: I think he has. 851 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 1: Very mixed feelings about but you know, but I mean 852 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,799 Speaker 1: it's true. I mean that that you know that the 853 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,320 Speaker 1: road to this is paved with dollars from George Conway. 854 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 4: Credit to George at least that when I called him 855 00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 4: up and talked to him, he both acknowledged all of 856 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,479 Speaker 4: those things that you just said, but also he had 857 00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 4: an understanding of the sort of psychological components of this, 858 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,919 Speaker 4: which I thought was, you know, in some levels, it's 859 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,880 Speaker 4: crazy at some levels, but also totally revealing. I mean, 860 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,319 Speaker 4: the thing that George said that I thought was so fascinating. 861 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 4: It and it's something he said that applies to not 862 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:14,160 Speaker 4: only Leo, but also all this Thomas Alito stuff, even 863 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 4: the Scalia stuff we've also reported on Republica. As he said, look, 864 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,240 Speaker 4: you know, even though these guys are Supreme Court justices, 865 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:27,240 Speaker 4: like in Washington, they feel that they're maligning, they feel 866 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:31,520 Speaker 4: that they're ostracized, they feel that the people are unfair 867 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 4: in their criticism of them. 868 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:36,759 Speaker 2: My heartbreaks for them, yeah. 869 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 4: Right right, usually a response, but that, according to George So, 870 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,279 Speaker 4: there was a real concern that a Scalio or a 871 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,800 Speaker 4: Thomas or Alito might one day just say, to literally 872 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:51,480 Speaker 4: quote George, fuck it, I'm quitting, if only I'm going 873 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:53,480 Speaker 4: to go make a ton of money at Jones Day 874 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,239 Speaker 4: the Conservative law firm or some other law firm. Yeah. 875 00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:56,879 Speaker 2: Yeah. 876 00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,279 Speaker 4: And so part of what Leonard Leo is doing was 877 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,279 Speaker 4: like finding ways to make these justices feel, you know, 878 00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,400 Speaker 4: happy and supported. 879 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:10,680 Speaker 1: Or something into my heart fuck those motherfuckers, yes, continue. 880 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:10,760 Speaker 2: Yes, sorry. 881 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,280 Speaker 4: Your reaction is what I think a lot of people's 882 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,880 Speaker 4: reaction is when a conservative Supreme court justice, someone with 883 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,440 Speaker 4: an incredible amount of power, right is like, you know, 884 00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,920 Speaker 4: people are rude to me at restaurants. Man, this is terrible, 885 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:26,239 Speaker 4: but it is what it is. And who would know 886 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,640 Speaker 4: better than chors I mean that was a milieu. 887 00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:32,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, And I think that's a really good point. 888 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:36,279 Speaker 1: And you know, I constantly criticize him for that, and 889 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:38,799 Speaker 1: by the way, well deserved. But yeah, I think that's 890 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,759 Speaker 1: a really good point. And it is certainly they did 891 00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,480 Speaker 1: believe they had a certain kind of religious like mandid. 892 00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,279 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, And it's important to understand it that way. 893 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,120 Speaker 4: I mean, Leo has been doing what he's doing for 894 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:55,520 Speaker 4: thirty years, building what he's been building, recruiting, having these dinners, 895 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:56,000 Speaker 4: et cetera. 896 00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,560 Speaker 1: Explain to me why isn't more hands on with those 897 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:01,919 Speaker 1: three justices he helped pick out? 898 00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 4: More hands on in what way? 899 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:07,240 Speaker 2: Like they don't hang out with him, they don't do dinners. 900 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,160 Speaker 4: With him that crew, I think that they do. 901 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:10,960 Speaker 2: Okay, So talk to us about that. 902 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:16,239 Speaker 4: These three justices are the current most current ones. Gorsic, Kavanaugh, 903 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,600 Speaker 4: cony Bertt. I mean, they're really interesting because in a 904 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:24,840 Speaker 4: lot of ways they represent the sort of full operation 905 00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,560 Speaker 4: of the full flowering, if you will, of what LEO 906 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,920 Speaker 4: has accomplished. I mean someone like Kavanaugh, someone like Cony Barrett. 907 00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,560 Speaker 4: I mean they came up and Conny Barrett especially, you know, 908 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:40,800 Speaker 4: came up through sort of Catholic institutions, Catholic legal institutions 909 00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:45,160 Speaker 4: like Notre Dame. Taught at those Catholic legal institutions, involved 910 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,960 Speaker 4: in the Federalist Society, obviously involved in all of these 911 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:52,680 Speaker 4: other sort of religious right legal efforts, you know, like 912 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:56,080 Speaker 4: the Alliance Defending Freedom, and you know, then got to 913 00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,280 Speaker 4: judge Ship, took that judge Ship to the next level, 914 00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:00,399 Speaker 4: got to point it to the Supreme Court in some ways, 915 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 4: like Amy Coney, Barrett to a degree, Gorsitch to a degree, 916 00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:08,560 Speaker 4: and Kavanaugh. They are what LEO had envisioned thirty years 917 00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,080 Speaker 4: ago and have come to now. And look, these judges. 918 00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 4: They attend the big Federal Society events every year. They 919 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,840 Speaker 4: sit next to the biggest donors to the Federal Society 920 00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:22,640 Speaker 4: at these galas. They hire clerks, which obviously one of 921 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,359 Speaker 4: the most coveted positions as a junior lawyer. They hire 922 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:29,879 Speaker 4: clerks who've come up through the LEO system, and then 923 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,120 Speaker 4: those clerks go on to become lawyers and judges and 924 00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:34,760 Speaker 4: maybe justices someday. 925 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:35,680 Speaker 3: So I don't know. 926 00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,720 Speaker 4: It kind of feels like the three most recent Trump 927 00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:42,480 Speaker 4: pointed Supreme Court judges are not so much like pals 928 00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 4: of Leonard Leo's in a way that Scalia or Thomas 929 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,239 Speaker 4: or an Alito where you know, closer to peers in 930 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,440 Speaker 4: some ways, or even with Scalia, you know, Leo sort 931 00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,400 Speaker 4: of consider themselves sort of a mentee. I think that 932 00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:57,560 Speaker 4: some ways they are kind of, you know, a product 933 00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,440 Speaker 4: of what Leo has done. So the relationship is different. 934 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,680 Speaker 4: They're still very much close, but the dynamic has changed, 935 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,440 Speaker 4: if that makes sense, right the first three to the 936 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:07,160 Speaker 4: second three. 937 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:09,440 Speaker 2: So what is his sort of grand plan? 938 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:13,279 Speaker 4: His grand plan is to take all this money he's 939 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:18,240 Speaker 4: got and too, among other things, use the federalist society model, 940 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:20,600 Speaker 4: the thing that he's done for the last thirty years, 941 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,920 Speaker 4: and expand it to a whole bunch of other parts 942 00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:28,400 Speaker 4: of American society for the next thirty years or twenty years. 943 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:34,320 Speaker 4: So we're talking media, we're talking education, talking religion, talking 944 00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:38,799 Speaker 4: sort of more specifically like you know, electoral politics. We're 945 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,880 Speaker 4: talking the climate fight, which they would sort to be 946 00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:42,400 Speaker 4: on the other. 947 00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:44,320 Speaker 2: Side of yeah, I think so. 948 00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,239 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean there's this there's this group that 949 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,160 Speaker 4: we wrote about earlier this year called the Teneo Network. 950 00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,920 Speaker 4: Leo is now the chairman of the Teneo Network and 951 00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:56,840 Speaker 4: the TOAIO Network again. Wants to be the Federalist Society, 952 00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,000 Speaker 4: not for the law, but the federalist society for everything. 953 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,040 Speaker 4: They want to have venture capitalists, they want to have CEOs, 954 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,760 Speaker 4: they want to have US senators. They want to elect 955 00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,319 Speaker 4: a future president who is a TENAO member, you know. 956 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,439 Speaker 4: So it's pretty intense and it's very ambitious. Just because 957 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:13,040 Speaker 4: Leo's done it before, it doesn't mean he can do 958 00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:15,719 Speaker 4: it again. But obviously you don't want to sleep on 959 00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:17,200 Speaker 4: this bigger vision of his. 960 00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:21,680 Speaker 1: Oh Jesus Christ, tell me something that makes me slightly 961 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:23,520 Speaker 1: less depressed or more depressed. 962 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:25,400 Speaker 2: Just give us something to come out on. 963 00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:29,960 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean, I think the really interesting political 964 00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,960 Speaker 4: trend we're seeing in this ties directly to Leo is 965 00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:38,000 Speaker 4: the backlash to the Dobbs decision. Yeah, that overturned Roby Wade, 966 00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:44,360 Speaker 4: and the way that direct democracy has been used to 967 00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,319 Speaker 4: push back on the agenda of people like Letard Leo. 968 00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:51,440 Speaker 4: You know, overturning Row was the North Star for people 969 00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,960 Speaker 4: like Leo for thirty years. They got their judges there, 970 00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,200 Speaker 4: and then they got what they wanted with the Dobbs decision. 971 00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,040 Speaker 4: Alito wrote it, you know guy that Leo put on 972 00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:04,239 Speaker 4: the bench. But then you see ballot measures in Kansas, 973 00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:06,439 Speaker 4: and you see ballot measures in a bunch of other states, 974 00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:08,000 Speaker 4: and we're going to have a big one in Ohio 975 00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:11,840 Speaker 4: in a couple of weeks where voters, including in states 976 00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:15,680 Speaker 4: that are not you know, bastions of Blue Democratic Party 977 00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:20,719 Speaker 4: support people, voted to protect or expand reproductive rights. People 978 00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,320 Speaker 4: who've read our coverage and have come a waste feeling 979 00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,400 Speaker 4: that they can't do anything, feeling sort of impotent in 980 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,080 Speaker 4: the face of Leonard Leo and his operation. I was 981 00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:31,880 Speaker 4: telling them, And look the people of Kansas after Dobbs 982 00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:35,359 Speaker 4: put the issue on the ballot and voted overwhelmingly to 983 00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,759 Speaker 4: protect reproductive rights. No, no one man with all his 984 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,520 Speaker 4: money on the left or the right can just dictate 985 00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:44,680 Speaker 4: how democracy works, especially when something's on the ballot like 986 00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:48,800 Speaker 4: reproductive rights. Is I think this Ohio abortion rights vote, 987 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:50,200 Speaker 4: this in a couple of weeks is going to be 988 00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:53,720 Speaker 4: something to watch for sure. And then next year, seeing 989 00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,040 Speaker 4: how the candidates talk about row in abortion rights. It 990 00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:00,200 Speaker 4: galvanized people in twenty twenty two, it could very We'll 991 00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:01,439 Speaker 4: do it again in twenty twenty four. 992 00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:03,480 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. 993 00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:05,160 Speaker 4: Always a pleasure. Thanks for having me. 994 00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:08,759 Speaker 3: No more. 995 00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:12,960 Speaker 2: Jesse Cannon by junk Fest. 996 00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:16,360 Speaker 7: I'm going to fess up. I think that there's like backbenchers, 997 00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:20,640 Speaker 7: nosebleed benchers. I know Tom Emmer was the majority whip 998 00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:23,400 Speaker 7: for the Republicans, but I'm gonna admit he's got that 999 00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:26,400 Speaker 7: charisma that makes me forget who he is every other week. 1000 00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:28,239 Speaker 7: Where do you see it here as he tries to 1001 00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:29,400 Speaker 7: become speaker again? 1002 00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:33,640 Speaker 1: Charisma? We're not at charisma here. The Bernard Dan Caucus 1003 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:40,879 Speaker 1: continues its self immolation. Incredible stuff here. Tom Emmer, who 1004 00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:45,320 Speaker 1: is the one person in this speakership race who has 1005 00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,799 Speaker 1: any kind of experience doing what. 1006 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,880 Speaker 2: The speaker needs to do. That guy is on the 1007 00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:53,279 Speaker 2: verge of. 1008 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:58,239 Speaker 1: Collapse, Multiple Republicans telling CNN twenty six Republicans opposing a 1009 00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:02,080 Speaker 1: closed door vote, citing concerns over his record on fiscal 1010 00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:08,680 Speaker 1: and social issues, he was too responsible. Another one representative, Luna, 1011 00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,160 Speaker 1: who is a complete put munatic. 1012 00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:12,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go. 1013 00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:14,640 Speaker 1: She came out against him, and Trump is now publicly 1014 00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:17,960 Speaker 1: attacking him as a rhino. I was told everything Trump 1015 00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:21,879 Speaker 1: touches dies, and we're seeing that firsthand here, and so 1016 00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,080 Speaker 1: that is our moment of fuck right. And right after 1017 00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:31,320 Speaker 1: we recorded this, Tom Emmer dropped out, perhaps because Donald 1018 00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:36,480 Speaker 1: Trump texted everyone in the Republican caucus a lean, quote 1019 00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:41,000 Speaker 1: unquote truth about him. That's it for this episode of 1020 00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:44,840 Speaker 1: Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to 1021 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,759 Speaker 1: hear the best minds in politics makes sense of all 1022 00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,359 Speaker 1: this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send 1023 00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,440 Speaker 1: it to a friend and keep the conversation going. And again, 1024 00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:55,640 Speaker 1: thanks for listening.