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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Bridget and this is Annie, and you're

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Speaker 1: listening to stuff mom never told you. Now today, I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty happy to talk about this topic. Um. This is

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Speaker 1: a topic that kind of came on my radar on

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Speaker 1: social media, specifically Twitter, and I was kind of obsessed

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Speaker 1: with it. And then I was so pleased when a

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Speaker 1: few people wrote in asking for us to do an

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Speaker 1: episode on it. And that topic is scam Queen Anna

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Speaker 1: delv Yes, Bridget was very, very very excited to talk

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Speaker 1: about this, um, and I I kind of have read

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Speaker 1: a little bit about it, and I'm excited because Bridget

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Speaker 1: is excited, so I hope that everyone is kind of

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Speaker 1: excited to learn about this. Yeah, scammers, famous scammers are

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Speaker 1: my fan fiction. Yeah, yeah, pretty much. You know you

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Speaker 1: should find fan fiction about famous scammers. I would that

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Speaker 1: would make me too happy. I would die of happiness.

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Speaker 1: It's a good way to go, though. It is a

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Speaker 1: good way reading about Reading in depth are like fan

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Speaker 1: fiction about scammers. I would die with a smile on

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Speaker 1: my face. So one thing that people, if you listen

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Speaker 1: to this show, you probably already know about me, which

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Speaker 1: is that I have a love of things that are

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Speaker 1: kind of problematic. Um. I like, you know, we have

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Speaker 1: that series specifically on problematic fames that I was excited

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Speaker 1: to do because I love so many people and things

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Speaker 1: that are problematic. Um. I love Tanya Harding, I love

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Speaker 1: bad movies and bad TV. And one of the things

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Speaker 1: on that list of problematic, kind of messed up things

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Speaker 1: that I kind of can't get enough of is scammers.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've always been fascinated by people who pretend

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Speaker 1: to be something they're not. And you know, I think

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons why we kind of myself personally

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Speaker 1: but as a culture, why I think that we're so

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Speaker 1: interested in scammers, it's because, you know, you meet so

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Speaker 1: many people that come off as confident, They come off

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Speaker 1: like they know exactly what they're doing, and they are

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Speaker 1: very good at you know, that authentic veneer of who

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Speaker 1: they are, and then you find out, oh, that's all

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Speaker 1: an act. Actually there's a scammer, Like they're scamming me

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Speaker 1: right now. And I think that there's something in that,

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Speaker 1: you know, part of me feels like we all sort

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Speaker 1: of feel like we're scamming on some level, and that

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Speaker 1: when you meet somebody who is has bold face perfected

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Speaker 1: that scam, it's almost sort of even though they're doing

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Speaker 1: something awful, at least for me, you almost kind of

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Speaker 1: have to respect it. Yeah, and you are not the

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Speaker 1: only one who feels that way, Bridget clearly because we

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Speaker 1: have found some research into it. But um, why why

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Speaker 1: do you think as a culture we are so into this? Well,

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Speaker 1: it's funny. Over at The New Yorker, writer Gia Tolentino

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Speaker 1: has this great theory that they kind of our fascination

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Speaker 1: with scammers kind of comes in seasons, and she calls

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Speaker 1: it grifter season. She writes, Grifters season comes a regularly,

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Speaker 1: but it often comes in America, which is built around

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Speaker 1: mythologies of profit and reinvention. Its spectacular ascent, the shady,

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Speaker 1: audacious figures at its center, exists on a spectrum from

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Speaker 1: folk hero to disgrace. The season begins when the public

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Speaker 1: catches onto some series of scammers of a particularly appealing sort,

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Speaker 1: the kind that provoked both shod In freuda and admiration.

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Speaker 1: And I think that really kind of nails my sort

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Speaker 1: of love hate relationship with scammers, because on the one hand,

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Speaker 1: it's disgraceful somebody somebody scamming somebody else out of money,

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Speaker 1: you know, abusing their trust. All of that is disgraceful,

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Speaker 1: but it's difficult to sort of not respect a certain

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Speaker 1: level of boldness of scams. Like there's this meme that

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Speaker 1: was kind of popular, maybe like a year or two ago,

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Speaker 1: Joanne the Scammer. It's an alter ego of a of

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Speaker 1: a comedian where he's pretending to this scammer who was

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Speaker 1: always running scams on people and coming up with sort

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Speaker 1: of little witticisms about scams, things like, you know, scam

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Speaker 1: today before today, scams you. I think it's a couple

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Speaker 1: of things. I think it's a fascination with scamming in general,

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Speaker 1: but I also think when it's a woman, I do

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Speaker 1: think there's a little bit of an anti heroin thing

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Speaker 1: happening where we so often expect women to be, you know,

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Speaker 1: good and trustworthy, and when we think about scammers or criminals,

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Speaker 1: we think about men. But then when a woman is

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Speaker 1: doing the scamming, I think she almost there's almost this

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Speaker 1: inclination to lift her up as an anti hero. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I can see that for sure, And I think that's

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Speaker 1: something we do see in our media and entertainment and

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Speaker 1: another reason that in culturally we might have this this

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Speaker 1: kind of love and respect of scammers is that scammers

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Speaker 1: thrive in times of cultural unrest or unease. The writer

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Speaker 1: Bridget mentioned before Gia Tolentino. In her piece, he uses

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Speaker 1: a quote from Maria kna Ova from her book The

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Speaker 1: Confidence Game. Cons thrive in times of transition, and the

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Speaker 1: term confidence man was coined in eighteen forty nine by

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Speaker 1: the New York Herald and pieces about a bumbling scammer

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Speaker 1: who would ask strangers in the street, have you confidence

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Speaker 1: in me to trust me with your watch until tomorrow? No,

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Speaker 1: I hope not. At that point in American history, the

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Speaker 1: gold Rush was producing a swarm of swindlers in California,

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Speaker 1: and free banking was enabling wildcat banks and counterfeiters to

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Speaker 1: circulate worthless bills. Scammers love nothing better. ConA Cova notes

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Speaker 1: than quote explorting the sense of unease we feel when

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Speaker 1: it appears that the world as we know it is

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Speaker 1: about to change, which it does make complete sense that

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Speaker 1: that's the time when you would want to kind of

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Speaker 1: play on people's in securities and unease. Yeah, and we

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Speaker 1: are for sure in the middle of a moment of

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Speaker 1: cultural and social and political unease, goes on Terray One

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Speaker 1: gets the sense that these days that such unease may

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Speaker 1: become constant. The entire globe is getting hotter, market pressures

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Speaker 1: are accelerating, technology is advancing at a dizzying rate. At

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Speaker 1: some point between the Great Recession which began in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and eight and the terrible election, of scamming seems

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Speaker 1: to have become the dominant logic of American life. The

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Speaker 1: things that people have historically used to build non scammy

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Speaker 1: lives in this country, housing, higher education had deteriorated to

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Speaker 1: the point where they are likely to punish you if

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Speaker 1: you're not already wealthy. The bankers pushing reverse mortgages, the

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Speaker 1: recruiters at for profit colleges, and the many startup founders

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Speaker 1: hoping to take massive investor back losses until they eradicate

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Speaker 1: the rest of the market understand the world better than

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Speaker 1: we do. That's part of the reason they're so riveting.

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Speaker 1: Down to the last details. Scammers show us the glitzy

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Speaker 1: bullsh intrinsic to the stratospheric wealth in America. They show

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Speaker 1: us that the best way to make money in this

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Speaker 1: country is to treat everybody around you like a mark. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, when you think about it, it's hard not

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Speaker 1: to be fascinated by that, by that kind of social aim,

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Speaker 1: treating everybody sort of yeah, Mark, and it kind of

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Speaker 1: reminds me of the Great Gatsby and how he sort

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Speaker 1: of tricked his way up into that society. See. But

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Speaker 1: but even when I'm so glad you brought up that story,

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Speaker 1: because that story is sort of about the scam inherent

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Speaker 1: to this idea of the American dream, right, that Gatsby

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Speaker 1: has reinvented himself in kind of a scammy way, you know,

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Speaker 1: bootlegging and lying about his identity and all of that,

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Speaker 1: because like and like, on its face, it seems like

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Speaker 1: the American dream that he bootstrapped his way up into

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Speaker 1: into success. But actually the American dream is bullshit, and

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Speaker 1: so of course it's a scam exactly. Yeah. Um, And

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Speaker 1: there are plenty of quote good scammers of all genders.

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Speaker 1: Billy McFarland of fire Festival fame, the British Royal Family expert.

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Speaker 1: It was actually just a guy from upstate New York.

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Speaker 1: But we want to focus on female scammers because there

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Speaker 1: is something special about them, like Bridget mentioned earlier. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I also think part of it is that we love

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Speaker 1: in this country to root for a woman and then

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Speaker 1: we love when she falls, like we love to follow

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Speaker 1: the demise of a woman, like we like we can't

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Speaker 1: get enough of a story of a powerful woman gone wrong,

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Speaker 1: or a woman who seemed like she had it all

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Speaker 1: and then really it turned out she was scamming everyone.

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Speaker 1: I do think that there's something about the vigor with

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Speaker 1: which that we enjoy these stories when it happens to

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Speaker 1: a woman. That's my that's just my opinion. I think

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Speaker 1: you seem like you're pretty well versed in this subject. Bridget. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I actually would love to do an entire series

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Speaker 1: of scammers. Scammers like Elizabeth Holmes you may know her

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Speaker 1: as blood testing scammer. She had that entire company UM

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Speaker 1: that was supposed to be able to give blood tests,

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Speaker 1: you know, like you could go to a CBS and

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Speaker 1: like prick your finger and it will be able to

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Speaker 1: give you all these tests in real time. But it

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Speaker 1: was actually just a scam. Like she'd gotten all this

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Speaker 1: money and it didn't work, and she probably knew it

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Speaker 1: didn't work, and a lot of people are like, she'd

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Speaker 1: probably be in jail, but she's not in jail. So

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Speaker 1: really interesting, fascinating, scammer. Also like black turtleneck scammer. You

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Speaker 1: never saw a picture of her not wearing a black turtleneck,

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Speaker 1: kind of ruin that look for everybody. To be honest

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Speaker 1: with you, there is Vogue scammer Yvon Bannaghan, who was

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Speaker 1: accused of siphoning away three thousand, five hundred sixty four

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Speaker 1: dollars while she was Grace Coddington's assistant. So many good

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Speaker 1: female scammers out there. So if you know of one

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Speaker 1: that you would love for us to talk about, whether

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Speaker 1: it's a scammer of today or historical female scammer, please

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Speaker 1: let us know. But today we are talking about the

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Speaker 1: undisputed scam Queen of Summer one, miss Anna Delvey. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I love scam Queen of Summer. Yeah. I actually put

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Speaker 1: out a I mean, this is an unsigned tofic pole,

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Speaker 1: but I put out one of those Twitter polls asking

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Speaker 1: who you thought the scam Queen of Summer was. I

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Speaker 1: made the running Anna Delvy, Elizabeth Holmes, Jill Stein or

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Speaker 1: like write in candidate. I think Anna Delavie actually ends

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Speaker 1: up coming in second the right and candidate one Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: our President, came in first as the Summer's scam queen. Wow, well,

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Speaker 1: congrats to no one. I mean, that's another that's another

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Speaker 1: interesting point about why I'm so fascinated with scams because

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Speaker 1: we associate scammers with a certain class. I believe, like

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Speaker 1: when you think of scammers, you think of somebody who

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Speaker 1: is not a wealthy person trying to become or pretend

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Speaker 1: to be wealthy. We have like rich scammers all over

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Speaker 1: the place. Like Scott Brubitt, former head of the e

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Speaker 1: p A, was basically a scammer, but people people don't

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Speaker 1: label him a scammer because he's male and well connected

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Speaker 1: and rich and white. But homeboy was trying to use

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Speaker 1: his connections in the government to get his wife a

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Speaker 1: chick bil a franchise. Like, that's a scam. That is

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Speaker 1: a scam. He is a scammer. Yeah, he also was

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Speaker 1: trying to buy old mattresses. I can't wrap my head

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Speaker 1: around that one. Honestly, there's so many like classic scams

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Speaker 1: that if we stripped away the veneer of he's a

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Speaker 1: high level White House administration official, whatever, it would just

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Speaker 1: be any other scammer with like farragmo belt and like

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Speaker 1: knock off chanel, like it is such a budget scam.

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Speaker 1: The only reason we don't talk about it in that

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Speaker 1: way is because of his connections. Like if you if

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Speaker 1: you stripped all of those things away, which he actually

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Speaker 1: resigned so they have been stripped away. If you didn't

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Speaker 1: have that title, it would be it would be anybody

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Speaker 1: else like scamming their way into free stuff. Like we

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Speaker 1: like all scammers. Doe like he's not special just because

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Speaker 1: he's Scott Bruett. Yeah, Scott Pruett, You're not special. But

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Speaker 1: today we're not talking about just any scammer, right Ridget.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about Anna delbe one of your favorite scammers.

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Speaker 1: She's a good scammer. If there was like a scammer

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Speaker 1: trading cards, she'd be the one that I would be

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Speaker 1: really really stoked ticket. So let's get into who Annadelvie

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Speaker 1: is for those of you don't know um and why

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Speaker 1: she is the scam Queen of Summer. After this quick

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Speaker 1: break and we're back. So Anna Delvie, first of all,

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Speaker 1: she's my favorite scammer. I've read literally every piece of

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Speaker 1: content on the Internet about her Horizon Fall, including a

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Speaker 1: lot of comment threads. I don't know it was her

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Speaker 1: or like her representative or whatever posted her mailing address

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Speaker 1: in prison on her Instagram, and I sent her a

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Speaker 1: snail mail letter asked her to come on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I will update you if we're able to get a

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Speaker 1: phone interview with Anna Delvie on this podcast. If someone

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Speaker 1: knows her, tell her that we would love to have

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Speaker 1: her on. So shall we come? You know, hear her

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Speaker 1: story and how she got to where she is. I

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Speaker 1: hope put it that way. Which is prison? Which is prison?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think we know how she got where

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Speaker 1: she is. But that's the thing. It's like, when you

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Speaker 1: read these articles, there was a really there are really

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Speaker 1: good pieces in both Vanity Fair and The Cut that

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Speaker 1: are super in depth about the con that she played

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Speaker 1: and would of how she so successfully prayed on women

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Speaker 1: a certain sort of class aspiration of these women. It really,

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Speaker 1: it really is fascinating and masterful. So first, this Vanity

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Speaker 1: Fair photo editor named Rachel Williams, she was actually scammed

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Speaker 1: by delvi herself and it ended up costing her thousands

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Speaker 1: of dollars. So she wrote this piece about what exactly

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Speaker 1: happened in Vanity Fair. So basically, she meets Anna in

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Speaker 1: a hotel and Anna says that she's a German heiress

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Speaker 1: who lives out of a hotel. Anna has these grand

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Speaker 1: plans to open what basically sounds like the Soho House

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Speaker 1: of Art. So it's going to be quote a dynamic

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Speaker 1: visual art center dedicated to contemporary art um And she

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Speaker 1: talks about how she wants to use family trust money

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Speaker 1: to afford this. She wants to get investors. She sounds

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Speaker 1: like someone who has grand and ambitious plans. But here's

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Speaker 1: the thing. This kind of plan that if someone have

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Speaker 1: you met somebody in a hotel, even if they seemed

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Speaker 1: rich and they told me they had this this idea,

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Speaker 1: the plan would still kind of sound preposterous. But that's

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Speaker 1: one of the tenets of her scam, which is the

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Speaker 1: same way that Tinkerbell only exists if you believe in her,

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Speaker 1: like if you don't believe in her, she dies. And

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Speaker 1: I had this way of making people believe these grand

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Speaker 1: plans and these grand schemes of hers, even though they

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Speaker 1: sounded preposterous, and in a kind of way, the reason

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Speaker 1: that they are kind of believable is because they sound

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Speaker 1: over the top. Rachel Rights. In my line of work,

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Speaker 1: I had often encountered ambitious, well off individuals. So though

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Speaker 1: her undertaking sounded grand, in scale and promising in theory.

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Speaker 1: My sincere enthusiasm hardly outweighed a measure of skepticism. And again, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can see how you know, someone meeting a rich

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Speaker 1: girl in a hotel who's like, I have this grand

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Speaker 1: idea to make this big, lavish club full of art

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Speaker 1: and rich people. If anybody else told you that you

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Speaker 1: would be, you'd think, oh, sure of course you're going

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Speaker 1: to do that. Yeah. Right. But because that sort of

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Speaker 1: part of her scam is, you know, having this sort

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Speaker 1: of las fair attitude about money and you know, having

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Speaker 1: these grand plans that don't seem like they would ever work.

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Speaker 1: That's kind of how rich people are. And if you

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Speaker 1: want people to believe that you are rich, having some

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Speaker 1: big undertaking that seems really far fetched would actually kind

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Speaker 1: of solidify that in a kind of way. You know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: for sure. And I think just the way she was

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Speaker 1: so she would just buy really expensive things at restaurants,

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Speaker 1: she kind of did have this particular circle of people.

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Speaker 1: So if you're thinking, m I don't know about her,

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Speaker 1: but then you meet other people and they seem to

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Speaker 1: be in this circle of orbit and they seem to

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Speaker 1: have accepted her, then you kind of start to accept, well,

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Speaker 1: she must have passed this test. If she traffics in

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Speaker 1: this group of people, then even if maybe she'll never

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Speaker 1: succeed in this plan that I think is probably unrealistic,

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Speaker 1: she must still have the money. She must still be

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Speaker 1: in this class of people that she is saying she

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Speaker 1: is in, right, And I mean I've I've actually had

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Speaker 1: a few mild ammers in my orbit and political work,

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Speaker 1: because anybody who's doing political work, like you will, you

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Speaker 1: will encounter some scammers for sure. That's another thing that

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Speaker 1: I think scammers really traffic in is having other people

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Speaker 1: to kind of vouch for them or verify them. And

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking of one scammer that who kind of like

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Speaker 1: this is something I knew personally, so I don't want

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Speaker 1: to like blow up their spot. I mean, they there

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Speaker 1: was an entire article about their scam, but one of

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Speaker 1: the things that was a hallmark of how he scammed

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Speaker 1: was getting other respected political people to kind of vouch

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Speaker 1: for him. And so once you're sort of in and

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Speaker 1: one person that you know is like authentic and like

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Speaker 1: legit like vouches for you, like you're kind of in it,

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Speaker 1: kind of like you kind of like game handstamp and

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Speaker 1: it sounds like Anna trafficked in wealthy, well connected people.

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Speaker 1: So if you meet somebody who is actually wealthy and

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Speaker 1: well connected and they're like, oh and as good people,

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Speaker 1: that's kind of like a hand stamp. Yeah. I do

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Speaker 1: find that if you the bigger the lie, the more

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Speaker 1: you might be like, well, no one would tell something

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Speaker 1: as ridiculous as that because it could be easily checked.

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Speaker 1: But if you have to do it with confidence though,

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Speaker 1: and kind of the way it sounds like her personality

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Speaker 1: was one that kind of made you believe she was

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Speaker 1: this type of person, the specific type of person, and

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Speaker 1: that her accepting you and inviting you to things, it

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Speaker 1: was kind of flattering and you sort of wanted to

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Speaker 1: be someone that Anna delv wanted to have in her circle. Definitely,

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Speaker 1: that's so part of it when someone, I mean, two

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Speaker 1: of the people who extensively went on the record about

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Speaker 1: being scammed by Delvy both talk about sort of how

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Speaker 1: she seemed but the kind of person who didn't really

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Speaker 1: let a lot of people in and like kind of

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Speaker 1: seemed a little bit isolated, and that because she chose to,

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Speaker 1: you know, want to travel with them and want to

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Speaker 1: be good friends with them, it was almost sort of flattering.

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Speaker 1: So basically, Rachel ends up going on this lavish trip

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Speaker 1: to a villa and Marrakesh, and you might be thinking like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that sounds like a lot of money, Like I bet

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Speaker 1: it was an expensive trip. Whatever you were thinking, it

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Speaker 1: was so much more lavish than that. They traveled a

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Speaker 1: full time butler who Anna was supposed to pay for,

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Speaker 1: so Anna is supposed to be picking up the tab

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Speaker 1: on this whole trip. Now here's where Rachel says that

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Speaker 1: things took a turn. So Anna ends up booking a

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Speaker 1: seven thousand dollar a night private riad, which if you

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Speaker 1: haven't heard of that, I have not either. It's a

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Speaker 1: Moroccan villa with an interior courtyard, three bedrooms, and a pool.

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Speaker 1: And Anna ends up forwarding Rachel the confirmation email, but

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Speaker 1: due to some seemingly minor snaff who, the plane tickets

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Speaker 1: have been put on Rachel's American Express card, and Anna

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Speaker 1: basically was like, oh, I'll pay you back. I'll pay

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Speaker 1: you back, Rachel. I mean, part of me thinks is

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Speaker 1: thinking that girl, what are you doing? Part of me

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Speaker 1: kind of gets it. She says, since I did this

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Speaker 1: all the time for work, I didn't give it a

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Speaker 1: second thought, So you might be thinking, wow, I would

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Speaker 1: never agree to this, But if you think your friend

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Speaker 1: is rich, you like, maybe you would? Like I asked

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Speaker 1: myself all the time, if I met this mysterious rich

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Speaker 1: woman who seemed to be rich, other rich people knew her,

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Speaker 1: she was throwing money around, she wants to take mary cash?

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Speaker 1: You know, I can't. I don't know if I would

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Speaker 1: do it or not, but I can't say that my

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Speaker 1: bullsh detector will be going off and then I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: do it. What about you? Yeah, I feel like reading

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Speaker 1: this article was very enlightening to me, because if you

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Speaker 1: just sort of hear the details without the sort of

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Speaker 1: personal all of these personal aspects of it, it does

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Speaker 1: sound like, wow, why would you ever agree to that?

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Speaker 1: But at this point they had been friends for a while,

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Speaker 1: and also she wasn't Rachel wasn't the only person going.

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Speaker 1: A personal trainer was going as well. Yeah, if if

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Speaker 1: it's your friend and she says she's going to pay

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Speaker 1: for it, you've seen her put down a lot of

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Speaker 1: money before. Um, it's it's a trip that you probably

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Speaker 1: are excited to go on. I don't think you'd have

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Speaker 1: any real reason if you've seen all these other people

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Speaker 1: vouch for her to suspect otherwise I would be uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: when it's like it would have to be on my

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Speaker 1: credit card. I think I would be uncomfortable, But I

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Speaker 1: don't think I would say anything, because you do want

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Speaker 1: the friendship to work. And uh, I mean, I can

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Speaker 1: just see it. I can see it. I can totally

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Speaker 1: understand going along with this personally. Another aspect of it

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Speaker 1: is sort of what I was talking about before, that

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Speaker 1: if you were trying to maintain that you were a

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Speaker 1: wealthy person, I do. I mean, this is going to

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Speaker 1: sound like a vast generalization. It does make sense to

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Speaker 1: me that someone who is massively, massively wealthy would also

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Speaker 1: be the kind of person who might be a bit

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Speaker 1: careless with what they perceived as small amounts of money.

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Speaker 1: I had a friend who was very, very wealthy, and

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Speaker 1: you know, she didn't work. She sort of was able

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Speaker 1: to sort of work here and there in sort of

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Speaker 1: creative field, and like was clearly being supported by her parents.

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Speaker 1: But she never paid for a cab, She never paid

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Speaker 1: for dinner. She would notoriously sort of walk out on

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Speaker 1: the tab. It would be like ten dollars to eight

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Speaker 1: dollars but because she just had a different sense of

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Speaker 1: money than we did. And so for me, someone who

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Speaker 1: is not rich, you know, if somebody picks up a

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Speaker 1: tab for me, I make a mental note, you know,

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Speaker 1: I have to get them back. I have to pay

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Speaker 1: them back. This is thirty dollars whatever. But I got

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Speaker 1: the sense from being around her that it's kind of

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Speaker 1: hard to explain, but because she was so rich, a

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Speaker 1: certain kind of las, a fair careless attitude about money

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Speaker 1: just kind of probably confirmed that she was rich. And

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Speaker 1: a kind of way, does that make sense, It totally

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Speaker 1: makes sense. I have I had a friend like that

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Speaker 1: as well, where there's kind of some resentment and we

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Speaker 1: had to talk about it because I always ended up

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Speaker 1: paying for things and he had way more money, like

404
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Speaker 1: way more money than I did, and it just didn't

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Speaker 1: seem to even occur to him that it would be

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Speaker 1: sort of a bigger deal for me. And like, I'm

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Speaker 1: totally I wasn't saying he needed to pay for everything

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Speaker 1: at all, but like equal let's share here, it just

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Speaker 1: didn't seem to be is big a factor to him,

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Speaker 1: So I'm not I'm not making this up. It does

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Speaker 1: seem like gets a little bit of a thing. Anecdotally,

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Speaker 1: it does seem that way. Yes, So here's where it

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Speaker 1: all kind of starts to go south for Anna and Rachel.

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Speaker 1: Well traveling, So Anna's card gets declined, and of course

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Speaker 1: Rachel asks the thing that everyone always asks when your

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Speaker 1: card is declined, oh did you tell your banks that

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Speaker 1: you're traveling? And she's like, no, I didn't, And so

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Speaker 1: this again sort of just is like, oh, well, she's traveling.

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Speaker 1: It's probably some sort of bank issue. This is embarrassing

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Speaker 1: to admit, but the times that I've had my credit

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Speaker 1: card or my debit card declined, the cashier always gives

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Speaker 1: you that very gracious you know, maybe you need to

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Speaker 1: call the bank. It's probably a problem with your card.

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Speaker 1: You know. They don't ever want to come out and

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Speaker 1: said you have no money. That's always a very gracious,

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Speaker 1: very gracious. So basically what happened after that is that

427
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,919
Speaker 1: the hotel kind of gets wind that there's no credit

428
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,159
Speaker 1: card on file for this extremely extremely lavish villa that

429
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 1: they're staying in. Then I'm sure costs. I mean, at

430
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 1: this point, if it's been thousand dollars a night, I

431
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 1: meant this point, it's probably so expensive. And once the

432
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,640
Speaker 1: hotel gets wise. Basically Rachel has to flip the bill

433
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 1: in order for them to leave, and again that would

434
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 1: be so I mean, I don't know what I would

435
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 1: do in that situation. If you're being held in a

436
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 1: foreign country and you don't really have a lot of money,

437
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 1: and you don't you're not able to leave and listen,

438
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 1: a Vanity Fair photo editor probably does not make that

439
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 1: much money. This is probably an intensely terrifying thing for her.

440
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,040
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, And in the article she talks about how

441
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,399
Speaker 1: hotel security was like in their room all the time,

442
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 1: kind of waiting for them, not letting them go anywhere.

443
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,919
Speaker 1: The personal trainers that went with them, she had already

444
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 1: left because she had like a stomach issue, so she

445
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 1: Rachel was alone with Anna, and Rachel by this point

446
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 1: was stressed out as well, and she wanted to go

447
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 1: ahead and leave, and they wouldn't let her leave unless

448
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 1: somebody paid, paid up, put a credit card down, and

449
00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,119
Speaker 1: Rachel was the one that had to do it, and

450
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: Anna was saying, you out, well, I can fix this.

451
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 1: I can't do it now. She was kind of being

452
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 1: she was very stressed about it and not being too

453
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: clear about how to solve the problem. She She was

454
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: sort of like, I'm not sure why this is happening,

455
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 1: I don't understand, and not offering any real solutions. I mean,

456
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: you would hope that if you're super wealthy friend, you know,

457
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,360
Speaker 1: was this was happening, that they would be like, oh,

458
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 1: let me call my dad, let me do this, let

459
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 1: me do that. But it doesn't surprise me. I mean,

460
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:28,880
Speaker 1: I'm sure that Rachel was very frustrated, but it doesn't Again,

461
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 1: the way that she was acting does not surprise me

462
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 1: that it didn't immediately kick in that oh, this girl

463
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 1: is broke and she's she's scamming all of us. So

464
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 1: when they get back to America, Rachel is trying to

465
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: get her money back, and it really sounds like she

466
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 1: started to kind of unravel. She writes, stress consumed to

467
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 1: my sleep and fueled my days. My coworkers saw me unravel.

468
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: I came to the office looking pale and undone. This

469
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,679
Speaker 1: it sounds like this just take over her life. This

470
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 1: one trip and this one arrangement with this one person

471
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 1: that she happened to randomly meet in the hotel sounds

472
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: like it was hurting to take over her full life. Yeah,

473
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 1: And wasn't it like seventy thousand dollars on her credit card.

474
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,239
Speaker 1: That's so much money. I mean in the article it's

475
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 1: quoted as being more than her her yearly salaries. This

476
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: is a year's worth of work that is gone because

477
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: of this one person. That's an amount of money. I

478
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: can't imagine if you you thought you a friend was

479
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 1: going to foot it, and then all of a sudden

480
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 1: it's on you and you weren't anticipating it and you

481
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 1: probably don't have it, that level of stress must have

482
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 1: been unbearable. Yeah, that would that would ruin my life.

483
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: So basically Rachel gets the police involved, and only then

484
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,959
Speaker 1: is the sort of grandness of this whole situation revealed

485
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 1: to her. She was accused of falsifying documents from international

486
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 1: banks showing accounts abroad with a total balance and approximately

487
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,439
Speaker 1: sixty million euro that's about seventy million American dollars, according

488
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 1: to a press relation from the New York County District

489
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 1: Attorney's Office announcing the indictment. In late she took those

490
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,040
Speaker 1: documents to the City National Bank and it attempt to

491
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: secure a two million dollar loan creation for her arts

492
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 1: foundation and private club. When City National Bank denied a loan.

493
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,360
Speaker 1: She showed the same documents to Fortress Investment Group in Midtown,

494
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 1: New York. Fortress agreed to consider the loan if Anna

495
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: provided a hundred thousand dollars to cover legal and due

496
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: diligence expenses. On January twelve, seventeen, almost a month before,

497
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: she returned to New York and secured a hundred thousand

498
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 1: dollar loan from City National Bank by convincing the bank

499
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 1: representative let her overdraft her account. She allegedly promised the

500
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: bank that she would rire funds shortly to cover the overdraft,

501
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: which is a very familiar thing in her world. She

502
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 1: gave the roan money to Fortress, so basically she was

503
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 1: moving around so many different large quantities of money, like

504
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 1: millions and millions of dollars and sort of kind of, um,

505
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: what's the expression, like robbing Peter to pay Paul, Like

506
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: getting money from getting a loan secured from one bank

507
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 1: and then using that loan to get another loan from

508
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,199
Speaker 1: another bank, like a massive shell game where there was

509
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 1: never really any money to begin with. It kind of

510
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: sounds like a pyramid scheme, but with like people people

511
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: in money, not at no products at all, just just

512
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 1: one person convincing people she had money somewhere and she'd

513
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 1: get it back to you exactly, exactly. And this quote

514
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: that Rachel has from her piece kind of you know,

515
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,120
Speaker 1: chronicling her nightmare with Anna, really nails it. Anna represented

516
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 1: the kind of life we all wish we could have.

517
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: It's too good to be true. The reality of Anna's

518
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: behind the scenes dealings, these figures flying from one account

519
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: to another, remains daizy to this day. That she was

520
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: allegedly orchestrating such an elaborate scheme while maintaining a believable

521
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 1: surface cool building her debit cards to pay for dinners, workouts,

522
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 1: beauty products, and spot treatments. She conjured a glittering, frictionless city.

523
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,199
Speaker 1: Whatever one wanted could be bought. Wherever one wanted to

524
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: go was a cab or a plane right away. The

525
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: audacity of her performance sold itself and to let collapse

526
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: under the weight of its own ambition. It's part of

527
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: why I believed her, to continue to believe her. Who

528
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: would think to make this up such an elaborate tale

529
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: and carry on like this for so long? Who was she?

530
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,199
Speaker 1: How do you know who anyone is? Really? And I

531
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: think that line really does a great job with encapsulating

532
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 1: what makes someone like Anna so so kind of mystifying.

533
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 1: You know, she really represented this world where everything is possible.

534
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 1: It's not surprising to me that it's all happened on

535
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 1: the back drop of New York City, because when you

536
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: live in New York, as I did for a few years,

537
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: it seems like there are two cities, right, There's the

538
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,680
Speaker 1: one city where you are toiling and you're always sweaty,

539
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: and everything is always a nightmare, and even something simple

540
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 1: like wanting to get groceries or going to the bank

541
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 1: is a huge ordeal, and everything is hard. And I

542
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: just when I lived in New York, my my biggest

543
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 1: memories were like toil and how everything was. It was

544
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: always something like just to get groceries was the biggest

545
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: pain in the world. And I always felt like I

546
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: was sort of battling the city. And then you would

547
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: see these rich, moneyed, wealthy, well connected girls who seemingly

548
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: lived in a different city. Is like we lived. We

549
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: lived in the same city, but we lived in two

550
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: different cities in a kind of way. And I think

551
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: Anna represented the possibility that you can live in a

552
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: world where anything you want whether it's a massage or

553
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: a private workout, or a trip to Marrakesh or a

554
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: personalized gown. Whatever it is that you want, you can

555
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: have it. Like that is so seductive, and of course,

556
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: like who wouldn't want that? I think it is this

557
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: sort of modern day great Gaps, the American dream, where

558
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: you know, you can move to New York with nothing

559
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 1: and reinvent yourself to be this, this German heiress for

560
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: whom everything is possible, everything is at your fingertips. Yes,

561
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: And I do love that aspect of the story that

562
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: she was a German heiress. Um and that quote, I

563
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: think it's really well written in Um. It does capture

564
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: a lot of why you would you would go along

565
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: with this, why it was believable. I mean, to witness

566
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: someone outwardly so confident if the money isn't there, but

567
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: they're just playing no outward signs that there's a problem.

568
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: It's it's impressive in a way. It really is. I

569
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: like am someone who I have usually when I have money,

570
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: even if I'm always like expecting my credit card to

571
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: get turned down, like I always am like here's my

572
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: credit card with a question mark. Used free credit cards

573
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: like gift cards, so you're like, there might be something

574
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: on this one, and I'm just like secretly in turmoil

575
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: that it's going to come back. They're gonna be like, well, sorry, man,

576
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: but this did not go through. Meanwhile, she's got Anna

577
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: Deelvia's no money, and it's just like confident again. Like

578
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: I know she's a bad person for scamming people who

579
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: didn't have a ton of money, but part of me

580
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,719
Speaker 1: has to sort of admire that confidence where when you

581
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: walk up to a cashier and you give your credit

582
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: card to buy something lavish and your credit card is declined,

583
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: instead of being like, oh, I don't have any money,

584
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 1: which all of us would do somehow making it, you know,

585
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: it's like, let me talk to a manager. It's like

586
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: the person who has that kind of audacity, that person

587
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: is so not me, and I am fascinated by that person.

588
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: She really took fake it until you make it to

589
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 1: its ultimate, its highest, highest point, to the most extreme. Yeah, exactly.

590
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 1: So another sort of major player in the whole Anna

591
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: Delvie saga is Nef Naff really has emerged that sort

592
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: of the folk hero that we all deserve in this story. Uh,

593
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: Nef is like me, a black girl from Washington, d C.

594
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: Shout out to Netflix executives who are already turning Anna

595
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 1: deelvie story into a Netflix show. If you need someone

596
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: to play Nev, please call me because this was the

597
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: role I was born to play. Um Nev worked at

598
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: the hotel where Anna Delvi was living and really gives

599
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 1: a different a different glimpse into these scams. So basically,

600
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: Nef says that Anna Delvi, one of the sort of

601
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: layers of her scam was that she would treat the

602
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: people in the hotel very, very nicely, like basically become

603
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: their friends. And bear in mind, this is the hotel

604
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: where she was living and not paying the bill, so

605
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 1: she was like ragging up thousands of dollars. But by

606
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: befriending the staff, it kind of gives you a certain

607
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: kind of power to be able to do that. Yeah,

608
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: they want you since you're nice to them. They want

609
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: to believe that you are a next person and that

610
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 1: their money is They're like, they want to give you

611
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: that benefit of a doubt. Exactly. My favorite quote about

612
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 1: Anna from Nef, she says, you know how Rihanna walks

613
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: out with wine glasses, That was Anna, and they let

614
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: her by miss Selvie. So if you don't know what

615
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: that means, basically, Rihanna is often photographed pretty much illegally,

616
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: like leaving restaurants going onto the street. Was a full

617
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: glass of wine for the restaurant where she was just dining.

618
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 1: I think that's against the law to like leave to

619
00:32:58,520 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: like get a drink at the bar at a rest

620
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: and then like, unless you're in New Orleans, to de

621
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: stroll out onto the street. But they let her, And

622
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: that's what she's saying, Like Anna Delvy had that kind

623
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: of vibe where she would do these things and people

624
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: would just let her right And um nev noticed the

625
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: same rich people who act nonchalantly about money vibe as Rachel.

626
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: That is, it seems to be one of the key

627
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: things that sold her scam. When you're super rich, you

628
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,719
Speaker 1: can be forgetful in this way, which is maybe why

629
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: no one thought much of the instances in which Anna

630
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: did things that seemed odd for a wealthy person calling

631
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: a friend to have her put a taxi from the

632
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: airport on her credit card, or asking to sleep on

633
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 1: someone's couch, or moving into someone's apartment with the tacit

634
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: agreement to pay rent and then not doing it. Maybe

635
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: she had so much money she had just lost track

636
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, that actually reminds me my rich friend

637
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: that I mentioned earlier. I helped her move out of

638
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: her place and I put her you haul on my

639
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: credit card because I was picking up a you Hall

640
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: to meet her, and she never paid for it. It

641
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: became a big thing, and eventually when I was like,

642
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: I need my money for that you haul, she had

643
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: just forgotten it. It It just slipped her mind. And that

644
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: that like, that's what I'm saying. This is not it's

645
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 1: for someone who is super wealthy. This does not sound

646
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 1: strange to me. It may seem strange, but it would

647
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: only maybe think like, oh, she's one of those rich

648
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: people who doesn't think about money like that. Yeah. From

649
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 1: what I read, she kind of had this flighty vibe

650
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: being sort of forgetful. So I can see just sort

651
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: of writing it off as a part of her personality

652
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: as well totally. And it does kind of sound like

653
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:36,399
Speaker 1: throwing money around and making it so that people kind

654
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: of owe you or feel obligated to not point out

655
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: the inconsistencies of your scam is kind of part of

656
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,280
Speaker 1: her armor. Neff writes, about how she once called something

657
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: out that she found a bit odd about Anna. This

658
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: rich person who actually legitimately was rich. Anna had told

659
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: Nef that this person's father they were thinking about being

660
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,800
Speaker 1: investment partners. This person like had stock in this hotel.

661
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 1: And so when NiFe mentioned this to the to the

662
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: rich guy, the rich guy was like, don't you think

663
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: that if my father had an investment partner staying at

664
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: a hotel where he kind of that he kind of owns,

665
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 1: that person will be staying in a suite, not like

666
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 1: a little deluxe room. When Nif asked Anna about this,

667
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: Anna said, do you ever just have someone do you

668
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 1: so many favors you kind of want to pay them

669
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: back in silence? And I mean, come on, that is

670
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 1: a great line. Like that is like something out of

671
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 1: a movie. It really is. It's Hollywood, Hollywood, kitten, write

672
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 1: something better than that. It's so good. It's so good,

673
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 1: It's so good. Another great tidbit about Anna's story is

674
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: just what a bold faced scammer she was. One of

675
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 1: my favorite points is that the personal trainer that you

676
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, when Anna was still stuck in Marrakesh and

677
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,399
Speaker 1: she had been low key scamming this woman. Anna didn't

678
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: have a way to get back to the United States,

679
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 1: so she asked if this woman could put a plane

680
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:52,879
Speaker 1: ticket on her credit card and then Anna would quote

681
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 1: pay her back later, but we all know how that goes.

682
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 1: And the woman said, sure, I guess I will, and

683
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,320
Speaker 1: Anna asked, can you get me first class US? Which, again,

684
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: it's such a impressive display that it's hard for me

685
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,399
Speaker 1: to not sort of love it. I think she she

686
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: really tapped into that kind of how people behave when

687
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 1: you are used to that type of money. That if

688
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: you're used to first class and you think money is

689
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: no big deal and that's just something you sort of expect,

690
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 1: you would ask for first class. I think she sort

691
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 1: of understood this class of people pretty well, and she

692
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: played the role very well. Yeah, like I think she

693
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: I think you're right that she knew the markers of

694
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: how to make these people who were not moneyed but

695
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 1: who were in her orbit believe the scam. Like you know,

696
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: it's like how magicians they have like a flashy thing

697
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:47,399
Speaker 1: and that they know that you're going to your eye

698
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: is going to be drawn to it, but that it's

699
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: actually you know, a misdirect. You know, it's like these

700
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 1: little things that make you believe in the scam. Yeah. Absolutely,

701
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: So we have a little bit more to talk about,

702
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 1: but we're going to pause for one more quick break

703
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 1: for word from our sponsor, and we're back, Thank you, sponsor.

704
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 1: So NeXT's version of this story kind of begins to

705
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 1: unravel the same way they did for Rachel, which is

706
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 1: having to pick up a big bill for a price

707
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 1: e meal. Um, it sounds like they went on to

708
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: this big meal. The waiter came back to the station

709
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 1: and began entering the credit card numbers. So basically it

710
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 1: sounds like Anna gave him a bunch of credit card

711
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 1: numbers and had the waiter put a bunch of them

712
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: in to see if they would work, and none of

713
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: them did. Next says, I started to sweat because I

714
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: knew the bill was mine. The amount of the bill

715
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 1: was about three dollars, which isn't a lot of money

716
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: compared to the other bills that Anna was racking up,

717
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: but it was a lot of money for somebody like

718
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 1: Nev who ended up having to cover the bill, And

719
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: she says that doing so made her feel sick, But

720
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 1: after all the money Anna it spent on her, she

721
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 1: understood that it was her turn. Oh yeah, yeah, I

722
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,399
Speaker 1: can I can see that too, Like, you don't want

723
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 1: to argue about money necessarily with someone who has been,

724
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: at least in your understanding paying for the bill up

725
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 1: and to that point exactly, exactly, um, and yeah, that's

726
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: really when things sort of took a turn. And really

727
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: for Nef, what I think was really the hard part

728
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 1: here was this idea that this was so intersected with

729
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 1: Nef's work because she was staying at the hotel where

730
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: networked and so at one point they realized Anna has

731
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 1: no credit card on file and she'd basically been living

732
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: in this hotel, and the management of the hotel came

733
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 1: to to help her sort it out, and they were like, yeah,

734
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: did you did you know this person was staying here

735
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: without a credit card? Like blah blah blah. And then

736
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: a classic scammer move when this was brought up to

737
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: Anna by NEF, Anna compensated by buying bottles of expensive

738
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 1: champagne for the hotel staff, thinking that like, oh, if

739
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:54,840
Speaker 1: I get them a pricey gift, maybe that will smooth

740
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: things over. Anna didn't pay, and eventually they locked her

741
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 1: out of her room again with Scott Prewitt that happened

742
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: to him too. Yes, more similarities, more similarities. So in April,

743
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: Anna deposited a hundred and sixty dollars with a bad

744
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: checks into the same account and someone was able to

745
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 1: withdraw from that account before they were returned, and that's

746
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: how she managed to pay off her hotel. So again,

747
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: really like moving money around, using one scam to pay

748
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: off another person that she had scammed. And again keep

749
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 1: in mind, Nef and Anna were really cozy. They were

750
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: buddy buddy, and Nef worked at this hotel, so of

751
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 1: course it got her into all kinds of hot water

752
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: with her job. I'm sure. Nef writes in the cut

753
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: that at one point they called her into the office

754
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: and they said, Nef, did you know about this? She

755
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 1: says she started dying laughing, and she says that he

756
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: thought it was kind of a boss move. So not

757
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: what I really see eye to eye here in a

758
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,319
Speaker 1: kind of way where even though it's a massive scam,

759
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 1: you kind of gotta respect it. Yeah, it's pretty impressive,

760
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: just the level of it, the scale, to have so

761
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: many people sort of pulled into it. There's a part

762
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: of part of you that sort of has to ask

763
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 1: to respect. I gotta give credit where credit is due

764
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 1: on this one. So later Anna deposited two bad checks

765
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: into an account she had at Signature Bank, netting her

766
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: eight thousand, two hundred dollars, and this is how she

767
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 1: ended up being able to take what she called a

768
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: planned trip to California, where she was arrested outside of

769
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 1: passages in Malibu and brought back to New York, where

770
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 1: she would faced six counts of grand larceny and attempted

771
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: grand larceny in addition to theft of services according to

772
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,760
Speaker 1: the indictment. And the cut got to the real Anna

773
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 1: behind the scam. Anna Sarkin, who was born in Russia

774
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety one and moved to Germany in two

775
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: thousand seven when she was sixteen with her younger brother

776
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: and her parents. Anna attended a high school in a Schweiler,

777
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: a small working class town sixty kilometers outside of Colonia

778
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: near the Belgium and Dutch border. She's not actually an heiress.

779
00:40:57,520 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 1: Her dad worked as a chuck driver and later as

780
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 1: an executive at a transport company until it became insolvent

781
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 1: in two thousand thirteen, whereupon he opened a heating and

782
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: cooling business specializing in energy efficient devices. So even though

783
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 1: there was no truth to her being this rich German heiress,

784
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 1: I think a lot of Americans, myself included, probably know

785
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,879
Speaker 1: so little about Germany that if she said, oh, I'm

786
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: from this like small town in Germany, it was even

787
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 1: that even if you knew that town was not, you know,

788
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: fancy and wealthy, it sounds like a working class town,

789
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 1: you might buy into it a little bit like, oh,

790
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: she says she's from this town in Germany, sounds fancy. Well,

791
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,280
Speaker 1: it's kind of funny because I think it also plays

792
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: on the fear that we all have of looking stupid, right,

793
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 1: or being embarrassed. You want to sound like, oh, sure,

794
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: I know where that is, Like you're educated and you're

795
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 1: aware of that world. You don't want to admit that

796
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: you don't know something. So it kind of plays on

797
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,359
Speaker 1: just the human nature of trying to to fit in

798
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: and sound and tell in front of people. Well, that

799
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,959
Speaker 1: actually reminds me of another scammer couple that I love,

800
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: the couple that scammed their way into the Obama administration's

801
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:12,760
Speaker 1: state dinner. So their last name was Salahi, and somebody

802
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: wrote that because this was a state dinner, and you

803
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 1: had lots of like foreign diplomats and foreign important people.

804
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 1: Because their name sounds a little bit like important, can important,

805
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 1: it could be the name of an important couple from abroad.

806
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 1: That that was one of the reasons they were able

807
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: to scam their way into this dinner so easily, because

808
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: nobody wants to look at the doorman who is giving

809
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 1: this important foreign couple a hard time, So maybe it's

810
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: just better to just let them in even though they

811
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,320
Speaker 1: aren't an important couple. But you know that that idea

812
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,800
Speaker 1: of not wanting to a embarrass somebody who was important

813
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,320
Speaker 1: or be be embarrassed because you didn't know who this

814
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: important person was definitely feeds into it. Sure. And like

815
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 1: a fear of being called out on your your ignorance

816
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 1: on something or causing like a kind of a scene,

817
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 1: I can completely understand, and wanting to avoid that and

818
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 1: just going along with it and then finding out that, uh,

819
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 1: it was all a big, a big lie. So another

820
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 1: thing I love about this whole Anna situation is that

821
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,919
Speaker 1: when the cut interviewed her from prison, she still sort

822
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 1: of maintained that this these grand ideas opening this fancy

823
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 1: art club for rich people. She still maintains that they

824
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 1: were actual plans that she had. They weren't. There wasn't

825
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 1: a scam. She actually believed that she could move enough

826
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 1: money around and fund this thing and make all the

827
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:38,320
Speaker 1: money back. Yeah, and uh, if it's true, it's always

828
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: a more believable story if there is a little bit

829
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: of truth to it, you know, if there's like just

830
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 1: a peppery ing of of true things in there. That's

831
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: the crux of any good scam is a little bit

832
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,919
Speaker 1: of truth. Yes, exactly. So this lie at the cut

833
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 1: I think crystallizes for me why this is such a

834
00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:00,280
Speaker 1: fascinating story. They're right about her her grand play hands

835
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,359
Speaker 1: to open this art club. They right. Maybe it could

836
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: have happened in this city where enormous amounts of invisible

837
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 1: money trade hands every day, or glass towers are built

838
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 1: on paperwork promises. Why not if Abby rose in the

839
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: son of Holocaust survivors, could come to New York and

840
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 1: fill skyscrapers full of art, If the Kardashians could build

841
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 1: a billion dollar empire out of literally nothing, if a

842
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: movie star like Dakota Johnson could sculpt her ask so

843
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 1: that it could become the anchor of a major franchise.

844
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 1: Why couldn't Anna delve. During the course of my reporting,

845
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: people kept asking why this girl. She wasn't super hot,

846
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: they pointed out, or super charming, She wasn't even very nice.

847
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 1: How did she manage to convince an enormous amount of cool,

848
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:42,320
Speaker 1: successful people that she was something she clearly wasn't. Watching

849
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 1: the Riker's guards shove Fast Company into a Manila envelope,

850
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 1: I realized what Anna had in common with the people

851
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: that she'd been studying on the pages of that magazine.

852
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: She saw something others didn't. Anna looked at the soul

853
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:54,879
Speaker 1: of New York and recognize that if you distract people

854
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,839
Speaker 1: with shiny objects, with large wads of cash, with the

855
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: indica of wealth, if you show them the me, they

856
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: will be virtually unable to see anything else. And the

857
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: thing was, it was so easy. I love that quote

858
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 1: so much because I think it's true. I mean, Anna

859
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: Delvi scammed her friends, a lot of whom didn't really

860
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:16,399
Speaker 1: have that much money to begin with. And side note,

861
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:18,720
Speaker 1: we actually don't even know the depths of her scams.

862
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: But when you look at like it does kind of

863
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 1: make you think, is in America kind of one big scam?

864
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 1: And in a kind of way, that is one of

865
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 1: the reasons why we're so fascinated by her story and

866
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,800
Speaker 1: stories like hers, because we see people sort of scammed

867
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 1: their way into success all the time, and in a

868
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 1: kind of way, it just seems like what this country

869
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 1: is built on. Yeah, I love that quote too, and

870
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 1: it's sort of reminds me of um. Every time I

871
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 1: go to Las Vegas, I have a weird this's just

872
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 1: a weird feeling in being there that I can't look

873
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:57,760
Speaker 1: away from this. This is like humanity and its basis

874
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 1: like pleasure, entertainment seeking. It's really hard to describe, but

875
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: I think that Anna was able to tap into if

876
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 1: you do have a large amounts of cash or shiny

877
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,359
Speaker 1: things to distract people, that we are so hung up

878
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 1: on this, and it's sort of like reveals the superficial

879
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 1: aspect of humanity that is both fascinating and kind of upsetting.

880
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: It's a really interesting dichotomy. Definitely, I'm sure folks are

881
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: so tired of hearing me make this connection, But I

882
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,240
Speaker 1: do think there's a little bit of a social media

883
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 1: aspect to this, because Annadelby's an Instagram is still up

884
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:40,719
Speaker 1: and she has the artifice of someone living the lifestyle

885
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 1: of like a of a mysterious, wealthy, traveling you know,

886
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 1: rich girl. She has that down so well. And I

887
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 1: think it's what you're saying. It's like, if you could

888
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,720
Speaker 1: have the trappings of wealth and that sort of shiny

889
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 1: artifice of wealth, that really it can be so distracting

890
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 1: even though you know it's not real, you kind of

891
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 1: let yourself believe it. And I think that's what Anna

892
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 1: traffic in. Even though we know, like there is no

893
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 1: free lunch. If someone befriends you and says they're going

894
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 1: to whisk you away to Morocco for free, that's probably

895
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 1: not true, but it feels so good to believe that

896
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 1: you could live a life like that. I just this

897
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 1: really just remind us me of my times living in

898
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 1: New York when I would just look at these these

899
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 1: these young women who were the same age that I was,

900
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 1: and I would want their life so badly. I'll never

901
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 1: forget this time I had to go to Kinkos to

902
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 1: fill because I was filling out this paperwork and it

903
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 1: was this really intense like involved having to get things

904
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 1: copied and triplicate and all of this. So I had

905
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: to go to Kinkos. Kinkos was a little bit far

906
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 1: away from my apartment, and the subway wasn't working, and

907
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: so the only subway that I could take to get

908
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: there was was not working. So I had to walk,

909
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: and so I walked. It was like a few miles

910
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 1: and the hot, hot sun. When I got to Kinkos,

911
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: it was closed, and I was like overcome with this

912
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 1: feeling of dread and sort of turmoil. And I turned

913
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 1: around to go back to you know, walk back home,

914
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 1: because there was no way other way to get home.

915
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 1: I couldn't afford a cab. The train was down. What

916
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 1: was it? When I turned around, I turned around too

917
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,359
Speaker 1: quickly and I ran smack dab into a road sign

918
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 1: and it broke my glasses. And so so I sat

919
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: down on this stoop in Williamsburg and somebody opened the

920
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 1: window of the stoop I was sitting at, and I

921
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 1: was like, can you leave? Can you not sit on

922
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 1: my stoop? And right in that moment, this black car

923
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:38,320
Speaker 1: full of beautiful, thin young girls, probably my same age,

924
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: got out of this car, and they were impeccably dressed.

925
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 1: They were like hipster sheek, they were laughing, were the

926
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 1: epitome of Brooklyn, care free, and I remember thinking we

927
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 1: live in two different cities. At that moment felt so

928
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 1: I just felt I've never felt dirtier or sweatier, or

929
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 1: grosser or more sort of down on my luck. I

930
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 1: want to be clear, there are people who are living much,

931
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: much harder lives than I was living in Brooklyn, But

932
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:06,359
Speaker 1: in that moment, I felt very down. And seeing this,

933
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: these glittering girls who just seemed to float on air

934
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:12,760
Speaker 1: getting out of a town car, like like a private

935
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 1: town car, I just remember wanting that so badly, so badly,

936
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: wanting to know what that life would be like to

937
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 1: just wherever you wanted to go, there's a it's a

938
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 1: town car way, you know what. I'm sure these girls

939
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 1: have problems. I'm definitely projecting my own stuff on them.

940
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: But I see that in Anna, where you know, a

941
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: Vanity Fair photo editor who makes sixty grand a year

942
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:35,720
Speaker 1: in one of the most expensive cities in the world

943
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 1: probably sees someone like Anna and what they offer as

944
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 1: so just intoxicating and the idea that you could that

945
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 1: you could be within grasp of it. I don't blame

946
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 1: anybody for getting caught up in her in her whirlwind, No,

947
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: I don't either. It's like a tale of two cities

948
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 1: for these are modern times. It is though I know,

949
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 1: I know what are thinking, like, why did you do

950
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 1: a whole episode on this, but it is. It really

951
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 1: demonstrates a lot of class aspiration and sort of the

952
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:11,399
Speaker 1: perversion of class aspiration. I think, yeah, I think you're

953
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 1: completely correct. So that's been our our first and what

954
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 1: will probably be a mini series on scammers. Oh, you know,

955
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 1: I could talk scammers all day. There was one time

956
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: I was I was watching this documentary on Netflix and

957
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 1: somebody came over to my house and I was like, oh,

958
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 1: I've been trying to watch this documentary on on wine

959
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 1: on Netflix for so long. And he was like, documentary

960
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 1: about wine on Netflix. That does not sound like something

961
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:38,720
Speaker 1: that you'd be into. And I was like, Oh, actually,

962
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 1: it's about this wine scammer who ended up scamming all

963
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 1: these fancy wine types and buying like counterfeit wine. And

964
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 1: he said, oh, that sounds that sounds right. I was

965
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: figuring you would not be watching just a straight by

966
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 1: the books documentary about wine. Somebody would have to be

967
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 1: getting scammed for you to be interested. Well, if your

968
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:03,360
Speaker 1: listeners any suggestions for um for scammers that we should

969
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 1: talk about, please send them to us. And if you're

970
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 1: a scammer, if you're currently scamming, give us a call.

971
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 1: Well let's talk. Let's talk about your scams. Yes, Bridget,

972
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 1: Bridget would love love more more than anything to your

973
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 1: from you. Yeah. And in the meantime, let's talk about

974
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 1: some the listener male Okay. Jacqueline wrote sports fandom Slash.

975
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 1: This is about our fan fiction episode. It exists. Our

976
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 1: PF is not slowly limited to one direction. I myself

977
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 1: these days, tend to read and write football RPF. I

978
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,320
Speaker 1: think our demographics plants a little bit older than average.

979
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 1: Most folks I know in it are in the mid

980
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 1: twenties to mid thirties. I also know people who write

981
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 1: a lot of hockey AIRPF, but I don't follow hockey

982
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 1: enough to really know more than some of the main

983
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 1: players and ships in both cases, though, I think, in

984
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:56,280
Speaker 1: addition to exploring everything you mentioned about deeper relationships between

985
00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:00,360
Speaker 1: folks we already see in Cannon, there's something kind of

986
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 1: interesting about exploring masculinity, issues of homophobia, and very public life,

987
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,320
Speaker 1: particularly in exclusively male spaces. Maybe I like pretending to

988
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 1: be a fly on the wall. I don't know, but

989
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:12,799
Speaker 1: that's definitely part of it. There's also a contingent who

990
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 1: writes fim slash, usually about the American Women's National Team.

991
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 1: Women's football outside of US w n T tends to

992
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 1: be pretty small fandom generally, so if you like me

993
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 1: and follow Brazil w NT or Chelsea Ladies, you're just

994
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 1: s O L. It's interesting because my academic research has

995
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: put me in contact with several professional footballers, some of

996
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 1: whom appear periodically and FICK. The ones I know aren't

997
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: that famous, but it's happened, and they definitely know. Some

998
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 1: of the guys who regularly star logically be kind of weird.

999
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 1: There's a really firm separation and compartmentalization, and the fandom

1000
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:45,799
Speaker 1: between ships pick and real life characterization is thick. Is

1001
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 1: mostly drawn from interviews and social media personalities. But I

1002
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,879
Speaker 1: don't think anyone thinks, oh boy, I don't know much

1003
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 1: about sports. These two sports folks are secretly in love

1004
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,400
Speaker 1: or whatever present them with slash fan works and person

1005
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 1: which I suppose does make it a bit different from

1006
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:05,719
Speaker 1: some live action fandoms like Supernatural or Avengers. Maybe a

1007
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 1: year ago there was actually a bit of panic when

1008
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:10,280
Speaker 1: an editor from dead Spin wanted to do an article

1009
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 1: on football RPF centered around New York City FC players.

1010
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 1: This led to me and some other folks I know

1011
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 1: changing the privacy settings on some postings on AO three. Happily,

1012
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 1: I think the article was dropped. While I don't think

1013
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 1: many of us are ashamed of our writing hobby per se,

1014
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 1: sports fandom can get super toxic, and our little corner

1015
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,720
Speaker 1: AO three and Tumbler tends to be pretty much troll free.

1016
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: The concern was that added attention from say, our slash

1017
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 1: shocker would lead to writers being harassed. I don't know

1018
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 1: if that concern was really logical, but hey, like the

1019
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 1: rest of fan fiction, football RPF is very much produced

1020
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 1: and consumed by women and non binary folks. The few

1021
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 1: cis gender men I know who exist around it, and

1022
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,359
Speaker 1: I don't even think these two right are gay. And

1023
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 1: this was in the wake of gamer Gates, so I

1024
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 1: think everyone on the internet was still on high alert. Naturally,

1025
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:01,840
Speaker 1: most of us have been put through the fake geek

1026
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:05,240
Speaker 1: girl test at least once. We all have individual horror stories,

1027
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 1: but usually they go something along the lines of some

1028
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 1: dude at a pub thinking we're only there for a boyfriend,

1029
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 1: or if we are there alone, it's only because the

1030
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 1: players are cute. Ironically, the folks that produce fick in

1031
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 1: this fandom are some of the biggest tactics and history nerds.

1032
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 1: I know. If some dude really wants to quiz them

1033
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,880
Speaker 1: on who was in the typical Manchester United starting eleven in,

1034
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 1: I say go for it. Jokes on you, random public ads.

1035
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:30,800
Speaker 1: I dragged my male friends to matches from my clubs,

1036
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,840
Speaker 1: and I can augle in Hazard's bubble, but while still

1037
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:37,319
Speaker 1: knowing when he's offside and that drys Marten's is the

1038
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 1: superior Belgian striker. I totally butchered that name. Apologies at

1039
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:45,800
Speaker 1: any rate. Female football fans are often victims of gate keeping,

1040
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 1: not unlike female fans and more traditionally geek spaces. But

1041
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 1: I wouldn't try it with the fan fake writers. They

1042
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 1: know there's anyway this has gotten long if you've made

1043
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 1: it through many things for your patients. I really enjoy

1044
00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 1: the women in queer folks side a football fandom, and

1045
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,400
Speaker 1: I always love sharing it with interested parties. It's been

1046
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:04,279
Speaker 1: incredibly supportive and a wonderful way to meet folks from

1047
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:08,239
Speaker 1: all over the world. Wow, that is fascinating. Yeah, I

1048
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:11,800
Speaker 1: just I thought that was really interesting because I cannot

1049
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 1: only imagine, uh kind of the intersection of fan fiction

1050
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 1: and sports fandom can get pretty toxic, and I'm happy

1051
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 1: to hear that there are these pockets on the Internet

1052
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:25,319
Speaker 1: that have gotten away from that, and it sounds fascinating

1053
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 1: to me. Yeah, of course people out there are writing

1054
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 1: fan fiction about athletes. This never occurred to me, but

1055
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 1: as soon as we read the email, I thought, of

1056
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 1: course people are doing, Matt, of course they are. I

1057
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 1: love it. Yeah, I do too. Um, and please keep

1058
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 1: sending in everyone who sent in their fan fiction, thank you,

1059
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 1: and please keep them coming. Please do Next letter, Nicole wrote,

1060
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 1: I was so excited to listen to this two parter

1061
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:53,320
Speaker 1: on fan fiction. Well, I read a little fan fiction

1062
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 1: as a team. I am now in my mid twenties,

1063
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:57,239
Speaker 1: and I've recently begun to write some fan fiction because

1064
00:55:57,239 --> 00:55:59,879
Speaker 1: I find it fun. I'm relaxing, creative outlet and good

1065
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 1: actors providing my own original fiction as well. You touched

1066
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:05,480
Speaker 1: a little on how women can explore their sexuality through

1067
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 1: fan fiction, and I wanted to share my own experiences. Well,

1068
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 1: I have not read any fan fiction of a sexual content.

1069
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:13,960
Speaker 1: Identify as bisexual, and I recently married to a great

1070
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:16,280
Speaker 1: guy I had been with most of my adult life.

1071
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 1: I have found that the more quote smutty fan fiction

1072
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:21,319
Speaker 1: is a way to express and acknowledge the aspects of

1073
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 1: my sexuality that fall outside of my heatero monogamous relationship.

1074
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 1: Through the safe, independent medium of reading fanfic, I have

1075
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:30,960
Speaker 1: also learned about many different kinks that I have discovered

1076
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 1: new ones I have brought in a conversation with my husband,

1077
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:35,239
Speaker 1: and we both agree it has supported us and being

1078
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 1: more open and more sex positive than we were raised

1079
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:40,319
Speaker 1: to be. Recently, a thirteen year old female friend of

1080
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:43,319
Speaker 1: the family was caught reading some sexually explicit thick on

1081
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:45,799
Speaker 1: her what Pad account, and I felt the reaction of

1082
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:48,759
Speaker 1: her parents was a little shaming, including banning or from

1083
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:51,279
Speaker 1: the account and sharing their concerns with others. While there

1084
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:53,800
Speaker 1: are certainly some smutty thick out there that is questionable,

1085
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:56,799
Speaker 1: such as incest, fix much of an explore sexuality in

1086
00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 1: a healthy way, and often in a way that acknowledges

1087
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:02,359
Speaker 1: emotional aspects of sex as well. I think in this way,

1088
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:05,359
Speaker 1: explicit fan thic might just be one more positive way

1089
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:08,560
Speaker 1: to explore sexuality and most porn, which is certainly something

1090
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 1: that many parents would struggle they had caught a son

1091
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:13,920
Speaker 1: rather than a daughter looking at ps. Your comment at

1092
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:15,759
Speaker 1: the end of part two about making lemonade out of

1093
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 1: lemons might have been funnier than you know. Lemon is

1094
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:21,840
Speaker 1: a term for smuddy scenes and fan fic. Who knew,

1095
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 1: Nicole think I'd love to say that we knew that,

1096
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:26,360
Speaker 1: and that we were making a really clever joke. But

1097
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 1: I didn't know that Annie, did you? I did, but

1098
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 1: I didn't catch it when you when you made that

1099
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 1: that comment, I did not put together. But that is

1100
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 1: really funny. Um. I had a friend when we were

1101
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 1: probably thirteen. Her parents caught her reading some dirty fan

1102
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 1: fiction and I mean dirty for thirteen year olds, perhaps, um,

1103
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 1: and they banned her from her account, and I shared

1104
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 1: my printed fan fiction with her. I was a little

1105
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:02,920
Speaker 1: little instigator trying to keeper with the hook up. I

1106
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 1: love it. I love that you were like well underground

1107
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:11,680
Speaker 1: fan fiction network. Yeah, I kind of was. Um. So

1108
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 1: I love all these these letters about people who have

1109
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 1: found community and fan fiction. I'm really happy that that

1110
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 1: exists exists for us on the Internet, and it does

1111
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:26,959
Speaker 1: sound like it can be a healthy sexual outlet, oh

1112
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 1: for sure. For sure. And even I just think that

1113
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:34,919
Speaker 1: since I do feel we publicly don't really allow young

1114
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:38,640
Speaker 1: women to express sexuality or talk about it, I think

1115
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:41,680
Speaker 1: that it is a way to explore things and figure

1116
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 1: out things about yourself, um, safely. And there are definitely

1117
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 1: problematic things in fan fiction, and I'm not saying there aren't,

1118
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 1: but I think in general it is a positive thing

1119
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:57,280
Speaker 1: that it is. It is out there and it is

1120
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 1: a way to to talk about to explore these things

1121
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:03,960
Speaker 1: about yourself. Definitely, um And honestly, it seems like the

1122
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:06,320
Speaker 1: fan fiction episodes really struck a chord with folks. I'm

1123
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 1: happy that folks are still writing in and like any said,

1124
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:12,960
Speaker 1: please keep sending usselves fan fictions. Yes we're still We

1125
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 1: were not joking about the fan fiction. Uh. With high

1126
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:20,400
Speaker 1: production value, well higher production value, we'll see what we

1127
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 1: can do um like many series, So keep keep sending

1128
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 1: them in. We are working on that. You can email

1129
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 1: us at a mom stuff at how stuff works dot com,

1130
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 1: and you can also find us on social media. Can't

1131
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 1: you bridget you? Absolutely can. We are on Twitter at

1132
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:38,680
Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast and we were on Instagram at stuff

1133
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 1: Mom never told you. And thanks as always to Dylan

1134
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 1: Fagan and Kathleen Quillian for helping us make this show happen.

1135
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:49,240
Speaker 1: Thanks as always, and thanks to you listeners. Please keep

1136
00:59:49,280 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 1: those letters coming. Who do I do