1 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to a bonus episode of Bleep with 2 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: Anna Navarro. Today we're going to talk about Lindsey Gram. 3 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: We just passed away this weekend. This is not an 4 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: easy topic for me. It's complicated. It brings out many 5 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,639 Speaker 1: emotions and feelings and memories. You see, Lindsey Graham and 6 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 1: I were very close friends for many years. But when 7 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: he died this weekend, I realized I had already buried 8 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: my friend. I buried Lindsey Graham at the same time 9 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: that John McCain died. Because there was a Lindsey Graham 10 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:47,599 Speaker 1: before Trump and a Lindsey Graham after Trump. So let 11 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: me tell you about the Lindsey Graham I knew the 12 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: Lindsey Gram I want to remember. Lindsey Graham was a 13 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: product of the South, a son of the South, proud 14 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: proud Southerner with the twang and the culture and the idiosyncrasy. 15 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:06,759 Speaker 1: He was a guy with the greatest sense of humor. 16 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: I know it's a low bar. Politicians are not known 17 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: for being funny. Lindsey Graham was genuinely funny. He was 18 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 1: self deprecating, He could make jokes about himself, not take 19 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: himself seriously, and also make jokes at others expense, but 20 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:29,199 Speaker 1: funny jokes. He was not a mean guy. Lindsay. Lindsay 21 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: I first got to know through John McCain, probably starting 22 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: in two thousand and six or two thousand and seven, 23 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 1: and we became very close. I hosted him in Miami 24 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 1: so many times, saw him every time I went to 25 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: Washington during the McCain campaign. We often traveled together. We 26 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: were often on the campaign plane sitting together because neither 27 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: Lindsey Graham nor I were mourning people, so we were 28 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: not fit for human interaction. And the guy I knew 29 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: was principled. He was an advocate on so many issues. 30 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: I first got to know him as an advocate and 31 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: worked with him on immigration issues. He was part of 32 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: the effort of trying to pass comprehensive immigration reform in 33 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight with Kennedy and McCain, and it 34 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: was a huge political risk for him. This was not 35 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: something that was an easy sell in South Carolina at 36 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: that time, but it was a risk that he was 37 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,959 Speaker 1: willing to take, and he was one of the most 38 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: powerful speakers and advocates on immigration. We came very close 39 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: to passing that bill, but we failed and Lindsey continued 40 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: being a staunch proponent of immigration reform. He was also 41 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: a staunchbacker of freedom everywhere, whether it was Venezuela, Cuba, Nicaragua, Ukraine, 42 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: you name it. Foreign policy was one of those things 43 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: that he cared about tremendously. I think he learned a 44 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: lot of it under the wing of John McCain. They 45 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: made many, many international trips together, and this was a 46 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: passion for both of them. Lindsay was a very humble man, 47 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: humble beginnings and he stayed humble, I would say, most 48 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: of his life. He was born poor in a little 49 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: town in South Carolina called Seneca, and was raised in 50 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: central South Carolina. His parents ran a bar and pool hall, 51 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: and they lived in the same bar and pool hall 52 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: in a room behind the bar. Lindsay had to deal 53 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: with personal tragedy very early in his life. When he 54 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: was in his early twenties, his mom and dad both 55 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: died within a year and a half of each other, 56 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: and he became the guardian. He adopted his sister, Darlene, 57 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: who is now going to be appointed by the governor 58 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: of South Carolina to fill his seat. He adopted Darlene 59 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: so that she could benefit from his military benefits. Lindsey 60 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: was the first in his family to go to college. 61 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: He went to law school. He signed up for the 62 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: Air Force reserves. He was a lawyer for the Air Force. 63 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: He went on to serve in those reserves for more 64 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 1: than thirty years. He was first elected to Congress in 65 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four. He served as one of the impeachment 66 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 1: managers against Bill Clinton. That sounds like ancient history. And 67 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: then he went on to be elected to the US 68 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 1: Senate from South Carolina. And that was the Lindsay. I 69 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: got to know the Lindsay who was the Robin to 70 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: John McCain's batman. The Lindsay who was wicked, funny, accessible, grounded. 71 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,919 Speaker 1: He loved to talk on the phone. A lot of 72 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: times I get a phone call and it was Lindsay 73 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: and I could just hear his voice. Hannah, it's Lindsey. 74 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 1: He was a good time, was a good person. And 75 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: I understand why so many of his Democratic colleagues have 76 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: expressed sorrow and some of them are getting attacked for it. 77 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: And it's because Lindsey was a likable person. But when 78 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 1: I say that, he turned into something completely different. That's 79 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: what happened after Trump. Lindsey knew damn well that Trump 80 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,359 Speaker 1: was a xenophobe. He knew damn well he was a racist, 81 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 1: that he was a destructive force not only to the 82 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: Republican Party but to the country. And you know how 83 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: we know that Lindsey knew this because he told us 84 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: so in no uncertain terms. There is video after video 85 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: after video of Lindsey Graham warning about Donald Trump and 86 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: calling out Donald Trump's personal flaws and his lack of humanity. 87 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 1: But John McCain died, and you know, I think John 88 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: McCain had filled a big hole that had been left 89 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:57,840 Speaker 1: by the death of Lindsey's parents, and Lindsey this is psychobabbel, 90 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 1: but bear with me. I think Lindsay always needed like 91 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: a big brother mentor batman type, the alpha male, and 92 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:12,359 Speaker 1: he could be the wingman too, and that ended up 93 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: being Donald Trump. After John McCain died, and for me, 94 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 1: it was heartbreaking, disappointing, very very hurtful. And I stopped 95 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: speaking to Lindsay at that point because I just could 96 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: not recognize, I could not reconcile the man that I 97 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: had known for so many years with this person he 98 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: had turned into under Donald Trump. I think Lindsey rationalized 99 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 1: this and reconcile this because Lindsay knew better. Lindsey knew 100 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: Donald Trump was a horrible human being who was going 101 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: to have a terrible influence on the country. But I 102 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: think he rationalized it because Lindsey wanted to stay elected. 103 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: He wanted to stay in the Senate. The Senate was 104 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: such a large part of his life. Remember this is 105 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: a guy who had no spouse, who had no children, 106 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: who had been in public service practically his entire adult life. 107 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: He was not willing to not win reelection because he 108 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: was in Donald Trump's crosshairs. So he realized that the 109 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: way to do this was to suck up to Donald Trump. 110 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: He also wanted to remain influential. He wanted the issues 111 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: he cared about, largely foreign policy issues, to be front 112 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: and center and to be able to get things done. 113 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: And I think he realized that the way to do 114 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: that was to suck up to the President of the 115 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: United States, even if it meant compromising his principles. Ef 116 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 1: you don't if it meant compromising his convictions. I think 117 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: he justified it. He for him, the end justified the means, 118 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: But it was sad. It was horrible. It was something 119 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: I could never get over. And listen this week, as 120 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: he has after his death, I have seen so many 121 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: people posting and writing on social media. Many people reached 122 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: Joways sing about his death, celebrating his death and calling 123 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: out all of his flaws and all of his hypocrisy 124 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: and inconsistencies. And I get it. I fully get it, 125 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: because I myself was heartbroken by the hypocrisy and inconsistency 126 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: and the one hundred and eighty degree change this man made. 127 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: But I'll tell you this, I have been very critical 128 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: of Donald Trump when he has attacked people like Bob 129 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: Muller after their death, John McCain, Rob Reiner because those people, 130 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: they're dead, they can't hear those posts, they can't hear 131 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: those words anymore. And the people that you are hurting 132 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:40,079 Speaker 1: are their loved ones that stayed behind. So I would 133 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: say Lindsay has a complicated legacy. I think there's good 134 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: and I think there's bad. I don't think we have 135 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: to somehow canonize him or lionize him, or sanctify him 136 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: just because he died. He's his legacy. Part of his 137 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: legacy is that he went from being one Listeagram to 138 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: being a completely different Lindsy Graham, a much worse version 139 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,199 Speaker 1: of Lindsey Graham if you ask me. And it's okay 140 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: to say that, It's okay to acknowledge that, it's okay 141 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: to talk about that and mention that without having to 142 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: rejoice at the fact that the guy had a cardiac 143 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: episode and drop dead. So I just wanted to tell 144 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: you a little bit about this complicated death of my 145 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: former friend, give you a broader picture of the man 146 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: I knew again. I mourned him in twenty eighteen. So 147 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 1: for me, this is this is a little weird, but 148 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: that's that's the Lindsay Gram I knew, a little weird, 149 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,559 Speaker 1: a little complicated. This has been a bonus episode of 150 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: Bleep with Anna Navarro. Thank you for tuning in and 151 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: thank you for listening. Leave me your thoughts and your 152 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 1: thank you. Bleep with Anna Navarro is a High Finite 153 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: Media group production in partnership with Iheartmikududa podcast Network. For 154 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: more of your favorite shows, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 155 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.