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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here, of course,

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Speaker 2: with my two favorite true crime mates, Courtney Armstrong and Body.

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Speaker 2: Move in and listen, everybody. It is Thursday, November thirteenth,

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Speaker 2: and we have a very stacked night of headlines and

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Speaker 2: a really important guest who are so honored to have

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Speaker 2: with us tonight. We have Hayley Robson, who we've all

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Speaker 2: been following very closely here. She's a survivor of Jeffrey

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Speaker 2: Epstein's sex trafficking ring. If you haven't been following, of course,

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Speaker 2: he is the convicted pedophile who is everywhere in the

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Speaker 2: new right now and the outrage over this continues, and

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Speaker 2: we are hopeful that survivors and any victims anywhere who

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Speaker 2: have suffered from some sort of abuse have their watershed moment.

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Speaker 2: And Haley, please, thank you. We're so happy to have

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Speaker 2: you here. Also, just a jump ahead, we'll be discussing

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Speaker 2: the Nexium cult. I don't know if you all have

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Speaker 2: been following that, but the actress Alison Mack, who was

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Speaker 2: embroiled in this is speaking out for the very first time.

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Speaker 2: Will also be unpacking that new developments in Delphi body

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Speaker 2: in the Delphi murderer's case. Richard Island, the accused and

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Speaker 2: convicted murderer in that case, has filed an appeal and

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Speaker 2: is bringing forward some never before seen evidence. Will that

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Speaker 2: make a difference? Obviously we have the person closest to

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Speaker 2: it right here with us. And also later in the show,

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Speaker 2: we'll be discussing the last minute clemency of Oklahoma's trem

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Speaker 2: Main Would He was scheduled to be said to death

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Speaker 2: today and at the very last minute things change, so

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Speaker 2: lots to unpack with that as well. We have an

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Speaker 2: actual stacked night. So first and foremost, Ladies, I love

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Speaker 2: you when I'm so happy to be with you today,

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Speaker 2: And Hayley, thank you for joining us at our proverbial

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Speaker 2: kitchen table. We know you have been really in the

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Speaker 2: spotlight and in the center of this storm, and the

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Speaker 2: work you were doing and the fight you were fighting

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Speaker 2: is so important and we are so grateful that you

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Speaker 2: were doing it. It is not easy I could imagine,

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Speaker 2: so having you here with us it frankly means the world.

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Speaker 2: So we want to hear it all. And if anybody

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Speaker 2: has any questions eight eight eight three one crime, please

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Speaker 2: jump in join us live, or you could always leave

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Speaker 2: us a talkback. Just download the iHeartRadio app and boom,

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Speaker 2: leave us a message, or hit us up on our

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Speaker 2: DMS and listen. The hope is that no hush money

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Speaker 2: can quiet this any longer. There is no secret document,

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Speaker 2: there is no email. There is nothing at this point

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Speaker 2: that can stop this from happening. The truth, I believe

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Speaker 2: will come out, and I think we're all feeling very

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Speaker 2: hopeful that that's the case. And I turn it to you, Hayley,

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Speaker 2: where should we begin with all of this? First and foremost,

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Speaker 2: that was well, let it go for a hot second. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's been so much right I can imagine. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: how do you feel?

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Speaker 3: I feel like the more the time goes by and

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Speaker 3: the more evidence and documentation and more information that gets

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Speaker 3: leaked or comes out, I feel more vindicated. It's just

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Speaker 3: a little bit more closer to the finish line of justice.

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Speaker 3: So I'm pretty hopeful and anxious, but hopeful.

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Speaker 2: I bet, I bet. Did you think this day would

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Speaker 2: be happening so soon? Are you surprised by the level

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Speaker 2: of our rage on all sides of this conversation that's

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Speaker 2: seemingly happening at a fever pitch today more than ever?

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Speaker 3: I mean yeah, And the problem is it's so hard

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Speaker 3: to process everything because literally everything changes day by day,

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Speaker 3: which it's great, I guess because it means ranking progress,

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Speaker 3: but it's also stagnant. So it's like, if we can

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Speaker 3: just you know, light that fire under their butts and

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Speaker 3: get them going and just release everything that needs to

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Speaker 3: be released, you know, the faster we can get to

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Speaker 3: the discovery part. So well, it feels like.

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Speaker 4: The momentum right, you know, the momentum is definitely going

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Speaker 4: right now, and that's definitely moving in the right direction.

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Speaker 4: And you guys are like powerhouses. You are not stopping

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Speaker 4: that train right like you're going to keep going. And

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Speaker 4: you know, I would say ninety nine point nine percent

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Speaker 4: of America is behind you, I mean one hundred percent

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Speaker 4: behind you, I know, agree at least Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I actually just did an interview with Nicole Wallace

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Speaker 3: for MSNBC. Yeah, yeah, and she brought up the stats,

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Speaker 3: and it was like eighty one percent of like Americans

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Speaker 3: are behind us and believe us and support us and

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Speaker 3: are on board with the whole transparency. Unfortunately, the stagnant

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Speaker 3: rest of the percentage is in the White House.

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Speaker 5: The.

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Speaker 2: Powers that be. But even you know, Speaker of the

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Speaker 2: House Mike Johnson, who seemingly has been you know, a

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Speaker 2: small piece of maybe some of this hold up, seems

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Speaker 2: to also be changing the tune today even he is

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Speaker 2: really recommending that this vote happens next week for full transparency.

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Speaker 2: That does seem to be a change in in tone,

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Speaker 2: and even the staunchest supporters of either the administration MAGA supporters. Again,

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Speaker 2: this is not a political show. We are just trying

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Speaker 2: to get some answers right, and it seems like one

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Speaker 2: thing that can unite all of us at a time

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Speaker 2: that that is needed, probably more than ever, is the

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Speaker 2: fight for justice for you, and man, it gives me

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Speaker 2: chills even as I think about it.

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Speaker 3: But that's like the frustrating part to all this is

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Speaker 3: it's such an easy side to choose, Like there's literally

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Speaker 3: nothing but benefits to all of this for everyone except

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Speaker 3: for the people that are implicated, which makes it so

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Speaker 3: confusing to find out who the good guys and who

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Speaker 3: the bad guys are because everyone's wearing a mask, everybody's

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Speaker 3: stories are changing. There's so many The government has literally

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Speaker 3: created chaos and dishonesty throughout this investigation because of their

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Speaker 3: lack of So it's just it's exhausting.

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Speaker 2: It is exhausting, and it's all really tiring.

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Speaker 4: It's all politics, and you know, in I think again,

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Speaker 4: most Americans are tired of that.

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Speaker 2: They're tired of the politics.

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Speaker 4: Justice is not supposed to come in the form of politics,

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Speaker 4: like in any capacity. So I think most Americans are

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Speaker 4: absolutely standing by your side, and we want transparency. We

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Speaker 4: want people to pay for what they've done to these children,

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Speaker 4: including yourself. And you're right, this should be an easy

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Speaker 4: side to pick. Crimes against sholder should never be tolerated,

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Speaker 4: no matter who's doing them well.

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Speaker 3: And that's such a good point that you make, and

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Speaker 3: just to double down on that. You know, when we

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Speaker 3: showed up to the Capitol in September, we were not

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Speaker 3: showing up as our adult self. That was the fourteen, fifteen,

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Speaker 3: and sixteen year olds that are unhealed within us that

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Speaker 3: we're trying to now advocate for and so you know,

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Speaker 3: like I said, I don't understand why I have to

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Speaker 3: go to the Capitol or try to explain to the

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Speaker 3: people in power that make the laws how pedophilia should

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Speaker 3: not be tolerated and neither should trafficking or exploitation. It's

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Speaker 3: getting tone deaf.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's crazy making that. That was such a powerful moment.

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Speaker 4: By the way, if you guys at the Capitol, we

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Speaker 4: all we talked about it for a long time, how

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Speaker 4: powerful that was. I mean, your voice definitely was heard.

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Speaker 4: It made a huge impact because I had never really

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Speaker 4: paid a ten all that much to the Epstein story

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Speaker 4: until that day, until I until I was like, oh

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Speaker 4: my god, these are real people, like oh my gosh,

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Speaker 4: because it was also abstract prior, but you guys made

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Speaker 4: it so real and you definitely got you hooked me

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Speaker 4: in for sure.

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Speaker 2: For sure.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think that was deliberate. I think the government,

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Speaker 3: you know, because we don't really hear a lot about

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Speaker 3: New Mexico. Unfortunately. I hope that changes. Oh, you know,

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Speaker 3: because you had the Zoro ranch out there, and you

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Speaker 3: know there are victims that were trafficked there, and even

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Speaker 3: Theresa Fernandez from the Female Democrat Caucus that's that's that's

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Speaker 3: you know, she represents New Mexico. Even she mentioned it,

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Speaker 3: and I said, that's a shame. That should be something

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Speaker 3: that is highlighted because New Mexico was just as affected

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Speaker 3: as New York and Florida and the Island. And it's

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Speaker 3: just asinine that we haven't touched that area yet. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think that was the point is if

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Speaker 3: they keep us separated, we're powerless, you know, but together,

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Speaker 3: you know, power and numbers. And when you get a

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Speaker 3: group of women that are fut up and have been abused, denied,

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Speaker 3: justice ran through the mud. I mean, everybody has a

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Speaker 3: breaking point.

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Speaker 5: Everybody has a breaking point, and man, talk about the

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Speaker 5: power numbers and the power that you guys are putting

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Speaker 5: forth and the results that are now beginning to come.

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Speaker 2: Finally, this is true Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 5: We're on iHeartRadio and we are so thrilled to be

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Speaker 5: talking to the incredible Haley Robson. Not only is Haley

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Speaker 5: a survivor of convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein, Helly's a powerful

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Speaker 5: advocate in supporting victims of trafficking and Haley, listen, you've

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Speaker 5: spoken about your experiences the years of intimidation that followed,

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Speaker 5: and of course your ongoing mission to educate the public

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Speaker 5: and support survivors and to push for transparency all of that,

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Speaker 5: and just once again, we couldn't be more honored to

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Speaker 5: have you here. If you have a question for Haley,

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Speaker 5: we're at eighty eight three one crime. Are you comfortable

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Speaker 5: taking us back to sort of beginning of how your

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Speaker 5: story unfolded?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely. I I went to Royal Palm Beach High School.

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Speaker 3: I'm from Pombach, Florida. You know, I was sixteen years

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Speaker 3: old and I was recruited by Tony Figueroa, who was

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Speaker 3: a twenty year old adult male and who, come to

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Speaker 3: find out, he brought several girls and was dating Virginia Goufrey,

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Speaker 3: you know. And I was recruited and I picked up

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Speaker 3: him in La Mancha, which is like a neighborhood. I

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Speaker 3: picked up another sixteen year old classmate, and when we

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Speaker 3: drove to Jeffrey's house, I was basically groomed in the car.

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Speaker 3: What to you know, what to allegedly expect, what I

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Speaker 3: was supposed to say, what I was supposed to do,

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Speaker 3: And then of course, you know, when I get there,

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Speaker 3: that's not like what happened. Clearly, it was obviously a

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Speaker 3: lot more than what was originally explained to me. And

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Speaker 3: you know, that was probably one of the most horrific,

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Speaker 3: probably one of the most horrific hours of my life,

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Speaker 3: being in that room with Jeffrey and just being fearful

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Speaker 3: because I had nowhere to go. You know, it was

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Speaker 3: a room inside of a room, and the door was locked.

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Speaker 3: All the adults were downstairs, and I was just like mortified, terrified, shocked,

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Speaker 3: like I it was just like an out of body experience.

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Speaker 3: It was so difficult to articulate, you know, even as

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Speaker 3: an adult, it's hard to even articulate. But I ended

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Speaker 3: up I ended up being abused by him for two years.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: And I was in his orbit for two years, and

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Speaker 3: I escaped because I moved to Orlando. I moved to Orlando, Florida.

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Speaker 2: And thank god you did. And by the way, just

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Speaker 2: to kind of re emphasize that steen years old, I

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Speaker 2: mean we're in high school, baby, I mean yeah, I

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Speaker 2: mean Virginia Goufrey's post, you know, post death memoir, you know,

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Speaker 2: called Nobody's Girl. It's funny, even as I'm hearing you

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Speaker 2: speak right now, this could be anybody's girl certainly could

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Speaker 2: have been It could have been anyone. You know, you're

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Speaker 2: in high school. You know it's, oh, here's a couple

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Speaker 2: of bucks are going to do a massage or whatever

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Speaker 2: the story is. It is so easy to get tilted

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Speaker 2: in a certain direction and then suddenly you're in way

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Speaker 2: over your head and what a scary place that must be. Baby.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it was probably the most difficult time in

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Speaker 3: my life because before I met Jeffrey, I had been

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Speaker 3: raped at fifteen years old. It was my first sexual

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Speaker 3: experience with a man like ever, and he was twenty

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Speaker 3: one or twenty two, and that was horrific for me

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Speaker 3: because it was just brutal. So when I'm at Jeffrey,

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Speaker 3: I was kind of already not doing so well and

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Speaker 3: there were things you know, that him and I thought

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Speaker 3: was like yeah. And I had conversations with him about

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Speaker 3: my rape and about my health and my family, and

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Speaker 3: he would always ask how my parents were. And he

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Speaker 3: was always super charismatic and personable and friendly. And that's

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Speaker 3: what makes the abuse so difficult, was the grooming and

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Speaker 3: the way he made you feel about yourself and just

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Speaker 3: he really played that super hero, but he just wanted

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Speaker 3: to be everybody superhero.

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Speaker 2: And you bring up an interesting point too, just to

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Speaker 2: touch on that for one second and jump in if

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Speaker 2: you disagree. It feels like he specifically, and maybe this

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Speaker 2: is the case for so many abusers, it's like you're

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Speaker 2: you're the perfect victim. And if in fact, you've already

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Speaker 2: had a traumatic experience and you're struggling and you're vulnerable,

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Speaker 2: and your your guard is already you know, conflicted and

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Speaker 2: you're confused, you just get it's like the perfect storm, right,

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Speaker 2: And if somebody who's older and sophisticated and influential, I mean,

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Speaker 2: this was a grown ass man Epstein coming in and

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Speaker 2: you know, frankly, you know, we think we're so smart

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Speaker 2: and strong when we're sixteen years old, but you look back,

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Speaker 2: you were a baby, and this man spotted that on you,

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Speaker 2: let's be honest, and was like, Oh, that's the perfect

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Speaker 2: person who won't cry as loud, And I think that's

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Speaker 2: the cycle that is sort of the blueprint. Yeah, definitely targeted.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, he had a knack, like he was really really,

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Speaker 3: really calculated and incredibly smart to cater the abuse to

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Speaker 3: all of us to suit our knees. For example, like

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Speaker 3: you know some of the girls team from broken homes

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Speaker 3: where their parents, you know, didn't make the kind of

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Speaker 3: money and you know, or they were strung out on

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Speaker 3: drugs or you know, things like that. And he knew,

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Speaker 3: he knew how to navigate that, he knew how to

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Speaker 3: make us need him and.

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Speaker 5: All as you say, the grooming, and it sounds like

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Speaker 5: just tailored to each one just to be as insidious

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Speaker 5: as possible to everyone involved. Well, listen, please stick around.

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Speaker 5: We're thrilled because Haley Robson is staying with us and

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Speaker 5: we have.

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Speaker 2: A lot more to talk about.

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Speaker 5: We're going to talk about a lot of things that

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Speaker 5: are upcoming and what has been and anything else Haley

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Speaker 5: wants to And if you want to join eighty eight

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Speaker 5: three to one Crime True Crime Tonight, We're talking true

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Speaker 5: crime all the time.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I'm

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Speaker 2: here with Courtney Armstrong, Body Move in Taha, Sam and

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Speaker 2: Adam are with us as well. It's an important night

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Speaker 2: at a really important time in this country. And Hailey

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Speaker 2: Robson is here. She is a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein's

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Speaker 2: horrible sex trafficking. Let's call it a ring, right. He's

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Speaker 2: a convicted, you know, pedophile, And if you haven't been

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Speaker 2: just paying attention to the news, it is really heating up,

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Speaker 2: and more and more correspondence that involve very high influential

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Speaker 2: people is being released from Jeffrey Epstein's estate. It is important,

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Speaker 2: it seems as though it's being withheld, and the question

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Speaker 2: is why. And Hailey Robson is living at real time.

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Speaker 3: She has.

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Speaker 2: Been becoming an advocate now and dedicated her life to

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Speaker 2: helping others who were in the exact same spot that

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Speaker 2: she found herself in at sixteen years old, which is,

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Speaker 2: you know, unfortunately, so so common, and first and foremost,

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Speaker 2: we want to just take the shame out of anyone

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Speaker 2: who's listening right now who has a story to share

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Speaker 2: or who have also been a victim of any kind

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Speaker 2: of abuse. You're in a really safe space and it

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Speaker 2: is not your fault. And Haley is a living example

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Speaker 2: of that. She's heading to Capitol Hill and has now

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Speaker 2: dedicated her life to better next steps and listen, it's

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Speaker 2: going to heat up in the next few days and

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Speaker 2: next week might be very real so we all really

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Speaker 2: need to be paying attention and Hailey grooming. We talk

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Speaker 2: about that so much on this show because again, it's

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Speaker 2: like so easy to get sucked into scams and schemes

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Speaker 2: and then that escalates to sexual abuse and violence, and

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Speaker 2: then it perpetuates, and then the cycle continues and all

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Speaker 2: the things. Can you tell us a little bit about

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Speaker 2: where grooming fits in all of this for you and

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Speaker 2: what do we need to know?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, the thing with human traffickers and abusers,

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Speaker 3: they don't have to use force anymore, you know, because

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Speaker 3: it's really psychological warfare. It's the cohersive control, it's the threats,

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Speaker 3: it's the intimidation factors, it's everything else besides the actual

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Speaker 3: physical violence. But the best way I explain cohersive control

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Speaker 3: and what grooming looks like, think about domestic violence, and

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Speaker 3: often the two are very much intact with each other.

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Speaker 3: They intertwine. But think of it this way for those

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Speaker 3: who don't understand. In domestic violence, it is said that

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Speaker 3: the victim goes back seven times. Seven times. In between

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Speaker 3: those seven times, you're gonna have explosive arguments and you're

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Speaker 3: going to either be physically abused emotionally abused, verbally abused.

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Speaker 3: It's all abuse, you know. And then it's having the

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Speaker 3: person who abused you, which is often your spouse or

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Speaker 3: your boyfriend, significant other, whatever, apologize to you and keep

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Speaker 3: coming back every time they call you a bad name

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Speaker 3: during an argument where they belittle you, or they throw

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Speaker 3: your trauma in your face, or they degrade you because

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Speaker 3: of your trauma. That is all abusive behavior. And imagine

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Speaker 3: doing that for a year on end and then having

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Speaker 3: the person can come back, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, it

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Speaker 3: won't happen again. And then it's like the reward, Let's

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Speaker 3: go to dinner. They take you to dinner, and now

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Speaker 3: it's turning into trauma bonding with my abuser because now

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Speaker 3: we're laughing about the fact that he just punched me

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Speaker 3: in the face and called me a bad word two

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Speaker 3: days ago. And you don't even realize it's happening because

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Speaker 3: at that point, your heart is so far in and

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Speaker 3: your brain through narcissistic abuse domestic violence, I find and

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Speaker 3: I've read statistics all domestic violent abusers are narcissistic. That

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Speaker 3: is an actual statistic. I've read that. So it's it's

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Speaker 3: not realizing that it's happening, and you're so far in

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Speaker 3: that you don't know how to pull out, and your brain,

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Speaker 3: the neurons in your brain legitimately get challenged. They the

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Speaker 3: neurons get destroyed, and it takes two years after narcissistic abuse,

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Speaker 3: usually domestic violence, where your brain starts to rewire neurons.

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Speaker 3: Now apply that to Jeffrey Epstein. Apply that to a

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Speaker 3: human trafficker. Apply that scenario without the force. Remember, because

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Speaker 3: domestic violence is not always physical. Now apply that to

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Speaker 3: someone who is sexually abusing you. And then when you

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Speaker 3: start to pool away because you know something's not right,

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Speaker 3: then comes the threats. I'm not going to help you

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Speaker 3: get your green card to be a citizen, or I'm

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Speaker 3: going to call the art gallery that you're in college

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Speaker 3: for and I'm going to tell them to take away

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Speaker 3: their you know, the financial aid, or take away you know,

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Speaker 3: your scholarship. That is all incorporated with Epstein. He didn't

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Speaker 3: need to physically abuse us. That is grooming, That is

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Speaker 3: rooming to its core, and it happens not just with

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Speaker 3: sexual abuse survivors. It also happens in domestic violence. You

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Speaker 3: are being groomed to take the abuse. You are being

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Speaker 3: groomed to normalize that your brain literally rewires. So of

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Speaker 3: course it takes a while to get out of that environment.

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Speaker 3: It does not happen overnight. And then the other battle

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Speaker 3: to all of this is when we do get victims

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Speaker 3: or survivors out of those situations, we have got to

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Speaker 3: as a community and as a society, we have to

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Speaker 3: welcome them. We have to put down our armor and

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Speaker 3: our judgments and our criticism, and we have to look

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Speaker 3: at them as human beings and we have to help

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Speaker 3: them fit into the community and help them to feel belonged.

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Speaker 3: Whether it's giving them resources, sending them job applications, we

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Speaker 3: have to help them so they don't go back and

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Speaker 3: become a statistic. And when you're groomed for years at end,

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Speaker 3: whether it's in a domestic violent relationship or I was

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Speaker 3: with Jeffrey for two years, there is no getting out overnight.

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Speaker 3: It takes years and guts to be able to compute

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Speaker 3: this is dangerous. I got to get out.

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Speaker 2: And on top of all this, you're a child, yes, yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean on top of your bring all your napses

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Speaker 4: and whatnot are forming still and this is happening to

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Speaker 4: you as a child, and you have to have somewhere

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Speaker 4: the strength to get out of it. How do you

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Speaker 4: even do it? In your case, like you said, you

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Speaker 4: moved right and.

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Speaker 2: The most influential guy in the world, I mean, Jeffrey

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Speaker 2: Epstein by all accounts, this is like not up for

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Speaker 2: dispute had more pull and play in the world than

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Speaker 2: maybe most humans period the end exclamation point. So imagine

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Speaker 2: trying to It's hard enough to get her own get

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Speaker 2: away from the Yahoo down the street, who's you know,

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Speaker 2: a zero. What about when the person is so hyper

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Speaker 2: connected and let's not forget the honeymoon phase at the beginning,

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Speaker 2: when they're like, I believe in you, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: give you a future. You're so bright, you're so smart.

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Speaker 2: You know, a young person is holding on so tight

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Speaker 2: to that identity they can feel so good. So the

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Speaker 2: downfall of that is so scary and wretched, for sure.

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Speaker 3: It is. It is definitely probably when when you know,

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Speaker 3: when you're in it and you're you're on the battlefield

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Speaker 3: and you're going through the psychological warfare, you're not seeing

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Speaker 3: it as you should be because you're not thinking of clarity,

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Speaker 3: you know, and in order to get and in order

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Speaker 3: to get that clarity, you have to separate. Just like

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Speaker 3: with the domestic abuse of partner, You're not going to

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Speaker 3: get the clarity until you get away from that person

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Speaker 3: and you and you let your body and your nervous system,

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Speaker 3: you know, regenerate and just chill. And that can take

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Speaker 3: a very long time, you know. It's it's very it's

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Speaker 3: a very difficult thing to navigate. And if you haven't

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Speaker 3: been through something like that or experience that, A, I'm

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Speaker 3: super envious, and B it's very hard for you to

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Speaker 3: be sympathetic when you can't understand.

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Speaker 2: Very funny, I think more people than we think can understand,

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Speaker 2: and that's not a good thing. But I think there

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Speaker 2: are more people listening right now than maybe have even

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Speaker 2: considered even in their own heads or in their own lives.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, it's like perspective is very powerful. That's why

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Speaker 2: it's so important that we're talking about it, because until

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Speaker 2: you're hearing it from somebody else, sometimes you don't even

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Speaker 2: see it for yourself. Right, this is your crime.

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Speaker 4: Tonight on the radio, I'm Body Movin, And I'm here

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Speaker 4: with Fortney Armstrong and Stephanie Leidecker, and we are talking

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Speaker 4: with the fabulous and incredible Hailey Robson, who is a

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Speaker 4: survivor of sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein, and we want to

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Speaker 4: hear from you.

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Speaker 2: Give us a call eighty to eight thirty one Crime. Hailey.

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Speaker 2: You know I've been paying attention, I've been following everything.

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Speaker 2: How does it?

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Speaker 4: I wanted to ask you. You are very strong, but

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Speaker 4: I have to tell you. How does I have to

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Speaker 4: ask you?

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Speaker 2: How does it feel to sit there and listen to

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Speaker 2: congressmen and senators in the White House and whatnot call

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Speaker 2: all this a hoax and it's something that you lived through?

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Speaker 2: How does that feel? Like?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a great question because I feel rage and

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Speaker 4: I'm not even the victim of this, and it gives

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Speaker 4: me such rage. Say, because I'm looking at you, I

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Speaker 4: see you like how how how does that feel for you?

432
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 3: I mean, it's really hard because initially I am very

433
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 3: angry that anybody can look me in my face and

434
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 3: into my eyes and not see the pain that exists

435
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 3: within my body. It's it's a very difficult place to

436
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 3: be at when the one person you want the most

437
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 3: support and the most understanding from is the same person

438
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 3: that turns their back on you and just happens to

439
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 3: be the most powerful person in the world. But he

440
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 3: is a mirror of Jeffrey. I make no bones about it.

441
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 3: He is a mirror of Jeffrey. And I say that

442
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,120
Speaker 3: because the abuse that we're enduring right now from our government,

443
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 3: specifically this administration, is no different than what Jeffrey did.

444
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 3: Gas let us, lie to us, made us feel that

445
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 3: he was here to be our superhero. You're going to

446
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 3: help us, You're going to release these files, you can,

447
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 3: you can painted on it, and then to have and

448
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 3: especially because I've been very public about my political stance,

449
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's betrayal, I feel.

450
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 2: But you're a Republican, you you you've been very forward

451
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:15,880
Speaker 2: about that.

452
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 4: It's disappointing, right Like, It's just I mean, it's so

453
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 4: hugely disappointing because I too put these people on the

454
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 4: pedestal for some reason, and when they disappoint us, it's so,

455
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 4: you know, heartbreaking.

456
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,959
Speaker 5: But yeah, I gotta say, you use disappointment, which it is.

457
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 5: It's disgusting, it's dismiss it. I mean, that was disgusting

458
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 5: to actually watch that. But a new day dawns. So

459
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 5: what are you doing. You're going back to the Capitol

460
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 5: next week?

461
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 2: Is that right? What's happening there?

462
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 3: So Tuesday, November eighteenth, at nine am, there's going to

463
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 3: be a press conference with Rocanna, Thomas Matthew, and Marjorie

464
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:55,880
Speaker 3: Taylor Green. So I fly out Monday, and I think

465
00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 3: I'm coming back like like Wednesday afternoon, and it's just

466
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 3: going to be a huge push to release more fought

467
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 3: you know, to you know, heat up the kitchen a

468
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,400
Speaker 3: little bit, put that fire in there, add some gasoline

469
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 3: to that. Yeah, and you know they need to put

470
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 3: a little pup in their stuffs. Enough is enough, you know,

471
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 3: let's do this. Let's get the ball rolling now. But

472
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 3: the government's back and intact. That was pointless for those

473
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,679
Speaker 3: fifty or forty days, however long it was.

474
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 2: I think it was all connected. Was that part of this?

475
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 3: Shut up?

476
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 2: It was? Can you just I've been listen, don't get

477
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 2: me started. But it's all connected, right, We heard it themselves.

478
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 2: The administration admitted yesterday there are no coincidences in politics,

479
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 2: and what a bummer. And boy doesn't seem as though

480
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 2: that's going to work. Because what happens in the dark,

481
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 2: it comes out in the light.

482
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 3: Well, I you know, it's like I keep saying, I

483
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 3: don't know what you think is going to happen, but like,

484
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 3: we're not going anywhere, and I'm just going to go

485
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 3: out on a win and say that the last thing

486
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 3: you want is forty more women to pile up at

487
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 3: the Capitol, angry, emotional set up, exhausted with no bathrooms

488
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 3: to offer us. Right, last thing you want and.

489
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 2: That the truth. And by the way, there's a whole

490
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 2: country supporting you. And I do think if you haven't

491
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 2: felt it, it is palpable right now. I don't care

492
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 2: who you voted for. I mean, we hear it all

493
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 2: day and again we have the benefit of being hearing

494
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 2: all sides of the equation. It's like no one's feeling

495
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 2: it anymore. And the cover up days are done. Yeah,

496
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 2: it does feel like the genie cannot go back in

497
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 2: the bottle any longer.

498
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, it's too late for all that. There's nowhere

499
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:47,719
Speaker 3: left to go except for up and forward.

500
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 2: And by the way, the sixteen year old version of

501
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 2: all three of us are just bear hugging the sixteen

502
00:29:55,200 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 2: year old version of you so deeply, so deeply, all

503
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,959
Speaker 2: of us, every one of us in Taha, A lot

504
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 2: of them. I don't know why but no, I'm emotional.

505
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 5: I know we all are cry but I mean you're

506
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 5: on the prairial You're actually you are you are doing

507
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 5: you are you know, as you said, pouring some gasoline

508
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 5: on this fire that needs to be lit and lit

509
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 5: big and you know it's it really is incredible.

510
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 2: But you know, the force of the human will can.

511
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 4: Seeing everybody in the you know, the the those steps

512
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 4: that day at the Capitol and seeing all those women

513
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 4: and by the way Democrats and Republicans standing together, Oh yeah, Maga,

514
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 4: that was like a moment for me, Like I was like,

515
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 4: oh my gosh, the country is healing, Like I can

516
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 4: feel it.

517
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 2: I don't know.

518
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 4: It was very powerful, Haley, Like, it was very very powerful.

519
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 4: I watched it several times. It was very powerful. I

520
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 4: can't wait to see what happens here.

521
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 5: We need to thank you so much for joining us, Haley.

522
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 5: Your courage, your advocacy is inspiring beyond. We are grateful

523
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 5: for all of the work you're doing. And anyone who's

524
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 5: interested in supporting Haley Robson, who should be everybody as

525
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 5: well as all the other survivors, can continue to apply

526
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 5: pressure to their political representatives and demand transparency and you

527
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 5: love learning a lot more about Haley's great good work

528
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 5: at the survivors ink dot org.

529
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 2: We love you go get them kid and wow, yeah,

530
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 2: Hailey Robson what a super stud who is you know,

531
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 2: kind of really light it up. She is making the

532
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 2: change that will hopefully change things generationally. Talk about legacy,

533
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 2: you know, we're talking about making your mess into a message.

534
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 2: And again she is so strong and mighty, and it's

535
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 2: like just again a reminder that you know, just because

536
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 2: someone carries it well doesn't mean it's not heavy.

537
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 4: Right, And she has the weight of a lot of

538
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 4: us on her shoulders. Yes does she does carry it well,

539
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 4: but yeah, that has got to be heavy. And I mean,

540
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 4: I hope she feels that when she's standing on those

541
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 4: capital steps, she feels you know, the three of us

542
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 4: plus you know everybody else, all the other women out

543
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 4: there with her. I hope she really feels us holding

544
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 4: her up, I.

545
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 2: Really and holding her hand every step of the way.

546
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 2: Because what a lonesome road this must have been. And

547
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 2: it's a road that many really have also traveled on.

548
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 2: So I feel like this particular case, although worldwide, and

549
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 2: you know the implications are so huge, it is sort

550
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 2: of the quintessential example of what so many experience in

551
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 2: their own personal lives in different ways. And I guess

552
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 2: that's why the outrage is really eating palpable.

553
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 5: It's palpable real, Yeah, And I have to say, Haley, really,

554
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 5: you know walks the walk in terms of the Survivors

555
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 5: inc Dot Org, which we have so much else talk about,

556
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 5: but it's worth spending just a minute because what an

557
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 5: organization this is. It's a community of survivors who are

558
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 5: helping other survivors, right, and they are offered all kinds

559
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 5: of really actionable things, so from support and empowerment and

560
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 5: life coaching to help get everything back on path a

561
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 5: safe path to healing, to personal growth and just you know,

562
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 5: resilience and helping strength and dignity come back and grow.

563
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 5: So I think that's a really beautiful thing for anyone

564
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 5: who does want to know more.

565
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 2: Again, the Survivors Inc Dot research. And by the way,

566
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 2: it's not just like a chick thing, right, No, So

567
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 2: many men and you know women suffer from this level

568
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 2: of abuse. But what I find so inspiring is so

569
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 2: many men on all sides of it just jumping in

570
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 2: and saying oh no, solu, Yeah, it's like, and we

571
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 2: experience it here at work and in the studio. Everyone's like,

572
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 2: oh no, no, no, no, that is we have. You know,

573
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 2: the muscle that is now entering the fight is really tremendous.

574
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 2: And I think that does say so much about how

575
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 2: important this particular time is. And listen, it's we have

576
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 2: to all drop the shame. The shame has to be

577
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 2: put aside. You know, think about it. You're a young girl,

578
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 2: it's like, oh, I don't want anyone to know. I

579
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 2: don't want parents to know I'm going to get in trouble.

580
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 2: Or sometimes it's just easier not to discuss something because

581
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 2: you want to move on with your life. So I

582
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,919
Speaker 2: have an idea, why don't you bury it for two

583
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 2: decades until it surfaces in some other strange felcocked away?

584
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,439
Speaker 2: Little do you know, like so many people around you

585
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 2: have experienced something so similar. But the silence is what's

586
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 2: keeping it alive. And you know, maybe that's the big, big,

587
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 2: the big breakthrough that's maybe happening collectively throughout the country,

588
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,439
Speaker 2: is that, like the silence is really the biggest piece

589
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 2: of the puzzle that will not last. We've heard it here,

590
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 2: We've had you know incredible callers who have called in

591
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:20,439
Speaker 2: and shared their toward tale men and women. And it's like, yeah,

592
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 2: when you look back as an adult, you look back

593
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 2: to your whatever thing is, You're like, well, that seems

594
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 2: super obvious that the baseball coach of yesteryear, you know,

595
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 2: told me to do this and some and then they

596
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 2: carry it around. And by the way, I think it's

597
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 2: sometimes even tougher for young boys and men because you know,

598
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 2: it's like it's you know, not macho, and it's silent

599
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 2: and and and and that is just not true. So

600
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:51,760
Speaker 2: if it's not really clear, if you have experienced any

601
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 2: level of abuse, sexual or otherwise, it is not your fault.

602
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 2: Take out the shame and you are not alone, and

603
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,280
Speaker 2: there's help. Anybody can heal from anything. I truly believe

604
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 2: that I think we are entering the stage in this world.

605
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 2: I really do. I think the best is upon us.

606
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 4: I think I think maybe this is the start of

607
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 4: some healing. And and like you said stuff, you said

608
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 4: it so well, silence is what's keeping this you know,

609
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 4: active and going right. And the breaking the silence and

610
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 4: the stigma and the shame and everything that a companies.

611
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 4: That is what's going to help us move forward. So yeah,

612
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 4: I think it's going to be a great point.

613
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 6: Agree. It's interesting how this country is. We're so divided

614
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 6: amongst you know, everyone, but this is the one issue.

615
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 2: That seem to be everyone's like.

616
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 6: Oh, black, white, young, you knowe male, female. This is

617
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 6: like when you're harming children, It's like we all are united, like, okay,

618
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 6: this is a problem.

619
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 2: I'm not this. Yeah.

620
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 6: So if anything, maybe it's helping unite forces in a

621
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 6: way that we didn't expect.

622
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 2: But it's the unexpected, you know, hero's journey, right, and again,

623
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 2: whether you're a child or a grown adult who has

624
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 2: found yourself in a situation that just is eating you

625
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 2: alive inside, we had to let it go. That is,

626
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 2: you know, not helping the cause, you know. And I

627
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,879
Speaker 2: think you'd be surprised how many resources there actually are

628
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 2: and how alone you are.

629
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 7: Not.

630
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 5: So there's actually one resource I'd like to shout out

631
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 5: and yeah, this is This is actually from the Survivors

632
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 5: Inc Dot org And for anyone listening who needs someone

633
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 5: to speak to, the National Sexual Assault Hotline is a

634
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 5: beautiful thing. It's a hotline and it connects individuals who

635
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 5: have been sexually assaulted with local sexual assault service providers.

636
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,800
Speaker 5: They are local, so there are people around the country

637
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 5: who can be connected.

638
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 2: And you can.

639
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 5: Call eight hundred six five six four six seven three.

640
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 5: Staff members are trained and they can also help assist

641
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 5: with emergency housing as well. So just to underline what

642
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 5: you're saying, saying, Stephanie.

643
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 2: That's such a big deal, the emergency house, where do

644
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 2: you go at run? Right? If you're using with somebody

645
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 2: that's doing this to you, what do you Where do

646
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: you go? That's or don't you stay? And that's the

647
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 2: problem because you're too afraid and you have nowhere to

648
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 2: go because then you will be holding the purse strings.

649
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 2: Do you have no money? Maybe they're controlling your By

650
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 2: the way, another little tip, you have to stash some cash.

651
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 2: You have to have a little go get go money

652
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 2: you just do. It's so hard to do, even if

653
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,800
Speaker 2: it's in fifty cent increments. You have to start putting

654
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 2: those pennies in a jar because you're going to have

655
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:38,840
Speaker 2: to make a run for it and there is some

656
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 2: place to go.

657
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 4: I did this, uh, this this thing at crime con

658
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 4: where I gave a talk about how animal abuse leads

659
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 4: to more deviant behavior with doctor Chris SOMEHNDI And one

660
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 4: of the things that I learned when I was studying

661
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:58,399
Speaker 4: for this presentation was a lot of the abuse situations

662
00:38:58,440 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 4: that we're talking about right now.

663
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 2: Women or men will.

664
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 4: Stay if they have a dog or a cat because

665
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 4: they can't they can't just leave with their dogs. So

666
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,399
Speaker 4: the housing thing, when you said that to me, the

667
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,280
Speaker 4: light bulb went off. Right, it's such a big deal.

668
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 4: It is like bigger, It's bigger than you think because

669
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 4: you can't bring your dog to a shelter right right.

670
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 4: They won't leave their cat, They won't leave their dog.

671
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:24,399
Speaker 4: They won't leave you know what I mean. You can

672
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 4: bring your their lifelessly. Yeah, that's their life and they

673
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 4: know that their abuser is going to hurt their beloved

674
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 4: little puppies. Yeah, that is such a big deal. The

675
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 4: housing courtney like huge.

676
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 5: Wow, So yeah, thank you so that Yeah, help, you know,

677
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 5: help is there and people are ready to jump in.

678
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 2: Listen, this is true crime tonight.

679
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 5: We would love to hear your thoughts on everything that

680
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 5: we've been talking about. We're at eighty eight three one

681
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 5: crime and we were just so lucky to have Haley Robson,

682
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 5: survivor of.

683
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 2: Aed aphile, Jeffrey.

684
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 5: Epstein and now marching on Congress and making the world

685
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 5: turn the other way. So thank you, Haley. What do

686
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:10,760
Speaker 5: you think?

687
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 2: Yes?

688
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 3: Do we go?

689
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 5: And I'm like, we're a little class.

690
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 2: A way, and I'm feeling fired up as well, and

691
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 2: I feel pretty intentionally driven to make sure that we're

692
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 2: following this closely. And if anybody has other tips, tricks, resources,

693
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 2: you know, call us anonymously anything like that, because I

694
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 2: do think we're checking on some of the boxes. That's

695
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 2: more common than we think. Where the heck do I

696
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,800
Speaker 2: run to? And how do I not let my job

697
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,879
Speaker 2: or the people around me find out? It's so embarrassing

698
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 2: when you feel like you're the only one in the

699
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 2: world that's being subjected to this abuse. And by the way,

700
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:55,399
Speaker 2: sometimes you love the person who's doing the abuse, which

701
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 2: is even crazier. And unless you've ever experienced that, it's

702
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,760
Speaker 2: really hard to imagine, right. I think that's more common

703
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 2: than we think. Well, as Hally said, average is seven

704
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:12,240
Speaker 2: times yes to leave and come back before many people

705
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 2: are able to, you know, make the final decision to leave.

706
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 2: If you're a kid, you can't leave right kind of

707
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 2: you can run away and by the way, let's also

708
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 2: play the fact that you're with somebody who's potentially very dangerous,

709
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 2: who do you run to? Because you know full well

710
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 2: when you run there, the person whom you've run too

711
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 2: is also in the line of fire. So if you

712
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 2: know you're with a dangerous person, when you land somewhere else,

713
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 2: that person's coming and you know, everyone's like, get a

714
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 2: restraining order like that matters for zero And by the way,

715
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 2: I don't. I'm not suggesting not to get them, but

716
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 2: it's a piece of paper that even can aggravate the situation.

717
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 2: So I think this is more prevalent and common than

718
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 2: people talk about and think. And I think if we

719
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 2: all put our big brains together, which you know anyone listening,

720
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 2: I think we're the smartest audience in the world. I

721
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 2: think we can solve this. And I think part of

722
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,799
Speaker 2: it is just openly talking about it without fear and

723
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 2: sha shame. Yeah, shame is the killer of all things.

724
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 2: I think it's the reason for cancer. It could be

725
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 2: it could be changing ourselves, right, Yeah, it starts somewhere

726
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 2: inside and support from others I think makes all the difference.

727
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 2: You just need one friend, so we're there Snowballs. Yeah,

728
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 2: we're in Snowballs. Yeah, we'll be your friend. We are

729
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 2: your friend, right, So there's to have you friends. I'm

730
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:32,839
Speaker 2: glad to have you too.

731
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 4: So there's another there's another story that I kind of

732
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:37,720
Speaker 4: wanted to get to, and that's a Nixium one.

733
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it kind of so we're talking about over right

734
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 2: goodness is there?

735
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 4: So there's this cult and they're cult. Well they don't

736
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:51,760
Speaker 4: exist anymore, but they're called Nixium. And Alison Mack she

737
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 4: she's the former small Town or the Smallville actress. She

738
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 4: went to she went to jail for being in this

739
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 4: cult and sex trafficking. And I know that's kind of

740
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 4: like a complicated sentence, but you know this this cult

741
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 4: had had a cult inside of it.

742
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 2: It was a cult within a cult, okay. And this

743
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 2: cult was.

744
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 4: Called DOS and Alison Mack was like the you know,

745
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 4: the head recruiter for this cult within the cult, and

746
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 4: she went to goss.

747
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I want to make sure I'm here. D

748
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 2: D O S. She was a big deal because she

749
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 2: was an actress on that show. Deal she was I

750
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 2: loved that that wasn't c W back in the day show, right, Ye,

751
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 2: she was she.

752
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 4: Was like one of the stars on that show. You know,

753
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:40,919
Speaker 4: she was a big deal, and she joined this cult.

754
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 4: You know, she this cult, the president. The reason this

755
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:46,959
Speaker 4: cult existed. They were kind of like a self help

756
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 4: kind of thing, and and you would go to these

757
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 4: seminars and you would buy you know, it's kind of

758
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,760
Speaker 4: like a multi level marketing too, right, it's a multi

759
00:43:55,840 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 4: level marketing slash cult a slash scheme issues.

760
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much.

761
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, And so you would go to these you know,

762
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 4: these the self help organization to get professional development and

763
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 4: human potential. And they would offer seminars and they called

764
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 4: these seminars executive success programs. And it drew in a

765
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 4: lot of entrepreneurs, actresses, tons of actresses. I'm a huge

766
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 4: Battlestar Galactica fan, and like the they were like.

767
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 2: The entire canople. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah, it's crazy.

768
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,919
Speaker 4: So you know, it drew all these people, filmmakers, wealthy professionals.

769
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 4: It operated mostly out of Albany, New York, but it

770
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 4: had centers across the United States of Canada. And on

771
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 4: the surface it was just leadership training, empowerment workshops, self

772
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 4: improvement curriculum. But underneath it all, it was a cult

773
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 4: built around Keith Rinier, and Keith Ranier is a con man,

774
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 4: but he is a self proclaimed in the Guinness Book

775
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,959
Speaker 4: of World Records for being a genius, had that highest IQ,

776
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 4: and everybody called him Van Guard. If that's not a

777
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 4: sign of a cult, I don't.

778
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 2: This guy was like narcissistic tendency, already narcissist.

779
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 4: To start it right, they said he was a world

780
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 4: class problem solver, somebody with this superhuman intellect, and none

781
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 4: of that was true. He fabricated his resume, he exaggerated

782
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 4: his accomplishments. He used Pseudo's intellectual language to maintain control

783
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 4: over all these people that would come to his seminars

784
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 4: and get hooked in by this self improvement. While Alison

785
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 4: mag was one of them, and she created this doss

786
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 4: program per Keith Rinier, the Leader Vanguard, and she was

787
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 4: recruiting women and they would get branded with his initials,

788
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:46,720
Speaker 4: branded with his initials, and it was a humiliation ritual.

789
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 4: He would have sex with these women. She developed this

790
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 4: master slave program. You could only do what Keith wanted. Well,

791
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 4: she just got out of prison and she's talking for

792
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 4: the first time publicly.

793
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 2: And it's fascinating. By the way. It was fascinating. But wait,

794
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 2: they thought they were getting branded with like an air

795
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,760
Speaker 2: symbol or so they did. They didn't realize until after

796
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 2: the facts, until he was brought up on charges when

797
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 2: they were like, oh, I'm out of the colt that

798
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 2: they were he was actually branding them with his initials.

799
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 4: Uh huh, because it kind of ups like a mountain,

800
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,879
Speaker 4: like what the sun set? You know, it's really k R,

801
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 4: which is Keith near scary stuff. Well, she's talking for

802
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 4: the first time. She's got a new podcast.

803
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,879
Speaker 2: Can we continue this after the Let's do it at

804
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 2: my seat? All right, Yeah, we'll stick around. We are

805
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 2: getting right back into this.

806
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,240
Speaker 5: I need to know all about the Battlestar Galactica stars.

807
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 5: And we also have a really stunning last minute clemency

808
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,399
Speaker 5: decision out of Oklahoma. We've got that and a whole

809
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 5: lot more true crime Tonight. We're talking true crime all

810
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:49,720
Speaker 5: the time.

811
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

812
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

813
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,399
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and body Move in on a pretty heavy night.

814
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 2: We're talking about some pretty heavy stuff. We have been

815
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 2: unpacking a little bit more about the Nexium cult. If

816
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 2: you guys haven't seen a documentary called The Vow, it's

817
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 2: really really, really good. Yeah, and it follows this Renier

818
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 2: case and there's two seasons.

819
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 4: There's two seasons and it's really long, so you like

820
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:32,799
Speaker 4: a long watch because I really do I get when

821
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:34,839
Speaker 4: I when I watch something sometimes I want to sink

822
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 4: my teeth into it a little bit. And this gives

823
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 4: you the opportunity. And by the way, it's told from

824
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,760
Speaker 4: one of the filmmakers who joined the cult, who escaped,

825
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 4: and he's filming the escape and then but his wife

826
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 4: stays in.

827
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 2: Oh, the white was still in it for like a

828
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 2: little I had to pair off. Well, the cult leader

829
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 2: is Teeth Ranier. He was like, I think I should

830
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 2: have a camera following me all the time time because

831
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 2: it was so incredibly interesting and important.

832
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:02,839
Speaker 5: Yeah.

833
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 2: So this guy had his own little like crew that

834
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 2: he was like somehow, by the way, I don't even

835
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,839
Speaker 2: think they were getting paid. He just like somehow had

836
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 2: them following him with a camera all the time, like

837
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 2: this guy making eggs on a walk, Like this guy

838
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 2: was filming himself. That's how interesting he thought, he was, right,

839
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 2: that's how important he thought he was, that he had

840
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 2: a film crew following him all the time, and that

841
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 2: he read ultimately being the.

842
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 4: Doc he read like The Art of War like once

843
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 4: and thought he was like a genius from it or

844
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 4: something like he just was one of those guys, right,

845
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 4: like this guy and Stephanie's right, he really had a

846
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 4: film crew following him all the time. And the story

847
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:45,240
Speaker 4: of the vow is told through one of the dudes

848
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 4: who was the film crew. So of course he knows

849
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 4: how to film. So he's like, I'm gonna do my

850
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 4: own thing and he makes his own comentary. It's so

851
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 4: good and it's again it's called The Bow and it's

852
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:54,240
Speaker 4: on HBO.

853
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 2: It's if you're in the cults and stuff like I am.

854
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 2: I love me too. But wait, because it all starts

855
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 2: so normal. That's why I know we get about it.

856
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 2: But well again, hook Line and Synchromere, you know they're

857
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,800
Speaker 2: like you empowerment. Oh you want to be an entrepreneur,

858
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 2: I want to be an entrepreneur. Oh you want to

859
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:15,720
Speaker 2: be freak, you want to be smart exactly for Tom

860
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:19,919
Speaker 2: Cruise my Battle Star Galactica. Folks, you know, yes, it's

861
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 2: very enticing and like the baseline tier one intro. All

862
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 2: sounds pretty coosh, it's all pretty kosher until it gets

863
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,840
Speaker 2: real weird and now you know everybody and then and

864
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:34,439
Speaker 2: then the door is locked right right.

865
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 4: And you know Alison Mack who we were just talking

866
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 4: about in the previous segment. She was the you know,

867
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 4: well known TV actress from the show Smallville, and she

868
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 4: joined in two thousand and six during a period where

869
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 4: she knows she was searching for purpose. She was feeling

870
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 4: a little bit lost professionally. She was vulnerable to this

871
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 4: kind of self improvement program right which next Tom offered,

872
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 4: and she joined willingly and full sam ahead. She really

873
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,439
Speaker 4: jumped in because at first it gave her purpose, right,

874
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 4: and keith Rynear saw that in her. And by the way,

875
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 4: she's a beautiful woman too on top of it, so

876
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 4: you know, she joined it head first. And again she

877
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:18,839
Speaker 4: was in charge of this doss cult inside the colts.

878
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 2: She started out.

879
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 4: She was a you know, she joined up the stripe path.

880
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:25,719
Speaker 4: And you'll learn about this if you if you watch

881
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,280
Speaker 4: the show, but it's how you advance within this cult.

882
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:31,720
Speaker 4: You have to wear these little sashes and they're different colors,

883
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:32,839
Speaker 4: kind of like karate.

884
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 2: Belts, like some of them up stripes like a you

885
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 2: know you're a level yeah, okay.

886
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 4: But they're like they're like little scarves and they wear

887
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 4: them around so you know who is in charge and

888
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 4: who you got to listen to, who you got to

889
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:48,279
Speaker 4: take orders from. You got to listen to people who

890
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 4: are your coaches, and those are the people above you

891
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 4: in rank, so to speak. And she quickly rose through

892
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 4: the stripe path. She dedicated her life to this Nixium cult.

893
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 4: By twenty fifteen, she was based near second in command

894
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 4: within this doss. Former members describe her as like super manipulative,

895
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 4: completely under Keith Rnar's psychological control, and really jealous about

896
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 4: enforcing obedience to Keith, like she was you know, if

897
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 4: you if you don't listen to what you know, the

898
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 4: Master said, you're going to get a whipping, and that

899
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 4: would happen. People were getting physically abused by by by her.

900
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 2: By her permission too. It was just you know, complicated stuff. Again,

901
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 2: not making an excuse for that behavior, no, but you

902
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,839
Speaker 2: know she was also a victim, right, and this all

903
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 2: falls into the whole grooming thing, and it's kind of

904
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 2: like that very complicated yeah, like you.

905
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 5: Know, well Maxwell with some accountability, because Alison Mack is

906
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 5: now explicitly stating I don't see myself as innocent. And

907
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 5: for example, on her podcast also she recounts this one

908
00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 5: story of coercing a woman into sex with the leader Vernier,

909
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:07,359
Speaker 5: and she describes it now as rape and acknowledges her participation.

910
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 5: So again, accountability is something Gilaene Maxwell does not seem

911
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:13,399
Speaker 5: to have a sash for.

912
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 2: No and again two other like free things. You know,

913
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 2: this was like you know, air quotes a slightly smaller thing.

914
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 2: You know, Gileien Mac there's thousands and thousands of Epstein victims,

915
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,920
Speaker 2: but they say in her case, she was also pretty

916
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 2: young too. She want to know, you're in Hollywood, you're

917
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 2: getting bounced around, you're on a show. Now you're not

918
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 2: on a show, you know, And for you know, this

919
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 2: cult leader, it's the perfect person also to bring into

920
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 2: your web because she was slightly influential because she was young,

921
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 2: and she was pretty, and she was slightly famous, right,

922
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 2: so that made her the perfect recruiter. You know. Sometimes

923
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 2: maybe this is a little bit of where Gileaene Maxwell

924
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:55,880
Speaker 2: may have felt fallen similar. You know, she probably loved

925
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:58,359
Speaker 2: this guy too and thought this is how I'm going

926
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:02,360
Speaker 2: to gain favor. And that's the one only thing I

927
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,280
Speaker 2: can say about Galliene Maxwell that I'm so curious about still,

928
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 2: you know, because she seemed to love that Epstein back

929
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 2: in the day, and then he probably discarded her for younger,

930
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,279
Speaker 2: younger tail frankly, for fourteen fifteen year old girls. He

931
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:19,879
Speaker 2: liked them real young, and she maybe out aged that

932
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 2: relationship and somehow just like kept the wheels turning and

933
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 2: kept the fuel coming in more girls, more girls, more girls,

934
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 2: and like yet somewhere in that she probably felt validated

935
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 2: by him, which is also so mental. I mean, I'm

936
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 2: not making an excuse for her. I think she stinks

937
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 2: this is for clarity, and I want her to not

938
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 2: have puppies and getting exercise, and I think she should

939
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 2: be serving time in a maximum security prison for twenty

940
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 2: years for being a sex trafficker. I'm not underestimating that.

941
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to unpack how that even happens in

942
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 2: the first place. Well, she, Courtney seems right, now, get

943
00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 2: it out.

944
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 5: Court Come on, I say, you know what today because

945
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 5: there's a picture of her from today and she's sitting

946
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 5: there and she's rubbing Epstein's feet and they're on a

947
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:06,439
Speaker 5: pre chess.

948
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 2: She's got a chess or cat gran on.

949
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 5: And I'm sorry because you're like, oh, you know, she

950
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:12,880
Speaker 5: aged out, and I know you're not making an excuses

951
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 5: remote you get it, of course, But however, the cash

952
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 5: and the parties and everything else, she was served very well.

953
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 2: She was served very well by the way she was.

954
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:26,440
Speaker 2: She was like rubbing his gross feet in that photo.

955
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:29,760
Speaker 2: But I think that also does go to show she's

956
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:31,959
Speaker 2: still sort of like that was her boyfriend at one point.

957
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 2: Those two were dating at some point back in the day,

958
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:39,280
Speaker 2: and then they became like cohorts as opposed to lovers

959
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:43,360
Speaker 2: or who knows, but they weren't girlfriend and boyfriend. Epstein

960
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 2: wasn't marrying Elaine whether no matter what she did. So

961
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 2: when I saw that photo of her rubbing on his

962
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 2: feet as a grown woman and he's just you know,

963
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:57,560
Speaker 2: probably had multiple relations with young women prior to that,

964
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:00,840
Speaker 2: it just showed that she was sort of still under

965
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 2: his spell, this guy. And by the way, I'm just

966
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:06,359
Speaker 2: saying that for anybody who's ever been under a spell, well,

967
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 2: Allison comes definitely under Keith spell. Like he created this

968
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 2: doss basically, how it was It was designed by Keith Rinier,

969
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:19,280
Speaker 2: and it was marketed to other women and when you joined,

970
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:22,840
Speaker 2: and it was exclusively for women. Okay, Keith was the

971
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 2: only man that I realized that I thought there was

972
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 2: some The guy that was the filmmaker was he wasn't.

973
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:30,960
Speaker 2: He didn't even know about it. He didn't, he didn't

974
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 2: know that happened, not until after, not until after.

975
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 4: So it was marketed for a women only empowerment, like

976
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:41,959
Speaker 4: the sorority kind of thing. And in order to join,

977
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 4: you had to give a police a piece of collateral

978
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:48,360
Speaker 4: to your your recruiter, which in the first level, of

979
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:51,680
Speaker 4: course was Allison. She was the top recruiter. And so

980
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 4: like Steph, say you wanted to join, because you're the

981
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:55,759
Speaker 4: one who would join a colt, right, yes, yes, yes,

982
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 4: If you wanted to join, you would have to take

983
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 4: a naked picture of yourself. Who wants that photo or

984
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 4: something terrible they've already not accepted me in the video.

985
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:08,280
Speaker 4: You would have to video videotape yourself something saying something

986
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:11,799
Speaker 4: terrible about like me or something like somebody close to you,

987
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:16,840
Speaker 4: and then send it and then send it. And that

988
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 4: was what was collateral, because if you ever left, wait.

989
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 2: So they were blackmailing. This is the signature move. This

990
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 2: is not so non Epstein like, so wait, let me

991
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:31,360
Speaker 2: just make sure I'm tracking this. So this creep rineer,

992
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:33,880
Speaker 2: by the way, if you've seen a photo of him,

993
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 2: you're like nasty girl roadie. So he forces me under

994
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 2: the will of night, like, hey, if you send a

995
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,320
Speaker 2: you have to text all of us a naked photo

996
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 2: of you just while saying something really terrible about somebody

997
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:50,840
Speaker 2: that you love, and then because if you get weird

998
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 2: or wayward, we'll release that. It was called one I suppose,

999
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 2: so might have gotten suspicious at this point, Yeah, yeah,

1000
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 2: would you maybe I mean naked photo.

1001
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 4: But well, the way they marketed it though, is like

1002
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 4: this is your next level.

1003
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 2: This is like you've been in. It's also like freedom,

1004
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 2: sexual freedom, and like your body is your gospel and

1005
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 2: like go ahead, don't be ashamed. That's also a piece

1006
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 2: of this, this particular cult is they were really into

1007
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 2: like empowerment of your body. So yeah, get naked, take

1008
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:32,560
Speaker 2: some photos. Well everyone did it exactly.

1009
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 4: And your high level coach already you use Alison Mack,

1010
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 4: the actress from Smallville that you're like, Okay, she can't

1011
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 4: be that bad, right, Yeah, in this way in order.

1012
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 4: You know, when you're knee deep in this cult and

1013
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 4: you've been in it for years, you know your brainwashed

1014
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 4: and you want to please Keith, right, and this is

1015
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 4: marketed as a way to please Keith, like, this is

1016
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:56,800
Speaker 4: the path to empowerment. This is the high level sisterhood.

1017
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:00,400
Speaker 4: This is a secret elite group and you're you're being invited.

1018
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:04,400
Speaker 4: Of course you're going to do it. You know, you

1019
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 4: have to put yourself in.

1020
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 2: Those sorry, right, that would be red flag too.

1021
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 4: So they would get this collateral and it was a

1022
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 4: it was a way to control and then they would

1023
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 4: text you you can have you know, three hundred calories.

1024
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 2: Today because they saw your photo and they're like, oh,

1025
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 2: she needs to shake a few and super diet, yeah,

1026
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 2: super diet.

1027
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 4: And it became whoever your recruiter was was your master

1028
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:37,680
Speaker 4: and you are a sleeve. That's what they called it.

1029
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 4: This is not my words. And it was a way

1030
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:43,640
Speaker 4: to control every woman because you'd have to text your

1031
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 4: your master, may I please have a rice cake with

1032
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:50,919
Speaker 4: cottage cheese? You may you have permission and then you'd

1033
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 4: have to take a picture of like your your food

1034
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:57,000
Speaker 4: and she would approve it, it was all control. Well,

1035
00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 4: finally it all came out. Everyone got arrested. Alison was

1036
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:02,600
Speaker 4: one of them, and now she has this podcast and

1037
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:04,240
Speaker 4: that's what's going on.

1038
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 2: So I listen. Okay, this is so much to absorb

1039
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 2: if you haven't been there, there's a lot. That's a wait.

1040
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:13,000
Speaker 2: That was a very good synopsis, high five, well done,

1041
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:17,440
Speaker 2: complicated stuff. So my initial instinct in Ava Kaplan and

1042
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 2: I were talking about this today when she was prepping this,

1043
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 2: I was like, why doesn't she get out of her

1044
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 2: prison sentence or her jail sentence and then just be

1045
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:27,960
Speaker 2: quiet for a hot minute. We've heard enough from you,

1046
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 2: Alison Mack for a second. And why the podcast? I'm

1047
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 2: not sure I'm feeling it. And then she was quick

1048
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 2: to remind me and I listened a bit to the

1049
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 2: podcast that if like she doesn't talk about it and

1050
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:43,080
Speaker 2: sort of these grooming tactics, how would we know it. So,

1051
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 2: and to Courtney's point, she is taking full accountability. She

1052
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:50,720
Speaker 2: is straight up saying this was real, weird. It's very

1053
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 2: bad that I was a part of this, you know,

1054
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:56,520
Speaker 2: I because of me, this person was actually raped. She

1055
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:59,960
Speaker 2: got such a low sentence because you know, she pled guilty,

1056
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:02,680
Speaker 2: and there was probably some plea deals, et cetera in

1057
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 2: order for that to happen. And it really did change

1058
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:08,400
Speaker 2: my opinion because in reality, yeah, I have to kind

1059
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 2: of give her credit. She did think that she is

1060
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:15,040
Speaker 2: actually saying what she did and what she should have done,

1061
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:18,400
Speaker 2: and that's how we know how to keep ourselves safe. Well,

1062
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 2: listen to her charges.

1063
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 4: Okay, it was sex trafficking, forced labor, racketeering, identity theft, extortion,

1064
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:30,720
Speaker 4: forced labor, and documented servitude. She pled guilty to racketeering.

1065
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:34,560
Speaker 4: She admitted, you know, recruiting all the women collecting collateral,

1066
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:38,720
Speaker 4: manipulating and coursing them using threats of the blackmail. She

1067
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 4: admitted everything. She expressed remorse, which the judge found credible.

1068
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 4: She cooperated with prosecutors, although not as seeply as others

1069
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 4: would like. You know, there were other people that cooperated

1070
01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 4: more fully. But she was sentenced to three years in

1071
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 4: federal prison. Wow, which is significantly lower, you know, than

1072
01:00:57,680 --> 01:00:59,880
Speaker 4: what she could have gotten. But it's because she had

1073
01:00:59,880 --> 01:01:03,200
Speaker 4: the you know, expressions of guilt she felt. According to

1074
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:05,920
Speaker 4: the judge, he believed that she was you know, she

1075
01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:09,120
Speaker 4: was out of it. She was also manipulated by Keith Rnier.

1076
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:12,520
Speaker 4: He recognized that she's also although she was a perpetrator,

1077
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:15,600
Speaker 4: she's also a victim, which I think you can be both.

1078
01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:18,600
Speaker 2: Of course, And I think that's why it's so important

1079
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:19,600
Speaker 2: that we're talking about this.

1080
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 4: And well, one thing that's super important I want to

1081
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 4: get in really quickly. Some of her victims submitted letters

1082
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 4: asking for leniency to the judge. So I think the

1083
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:31,440
Speaker 4: judge really took that into into play when he was

1084
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:31,919
Speaker 4: giving her.

1085
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:35,240
Speaker 6: Even the victims, Ye that okay if they said that,

1086
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:37,080
Speaker 6: because I was about to say earlier, Well, she is

1087
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 6: an actress, so she can probably you know, that's true.

1088
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 2: She can probably cry and command, right.

1089
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:44,640
Speaker 6: Right, So, but you know, not to delittle her.

1090
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, it's so it's so it's so nuanced.

1091
01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:52,400
Speaker 2: And again, unless you've been in that situation, how are

1092
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 2: you to say? So it is important that she's talking

1093
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:56,480
Speaker 2: about it. Can we finish this a little bit when

1094
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 2: we come back? Yeah, before going into another do it? Sure?

1095
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 2: Much good stuff?

1096
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:02,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, keep it here. We are going to continue this

1097
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:04,040
Speaker 5: true crime tonight.

1098
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:17,480
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1099
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:20,440
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

1100
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 2: Courtney armstrong body movement and if ever there was a

1101
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:26,520
Speaker 2: night for our weighted vests, let's pop it on. Courtney's

1102
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:28,720
Speaker 2: popping hers on, I'm popping mine on.

1103
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:33,080
Speaker 5: I can't is mine my chest books, I'm standing on

1104
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:34,840
Speaker 5: my shoulders desk.

1105
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:39,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm all about the pop. She's taken names, she's

1106
01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:42,920
Speaker 2: taken names. She looks like she's about to, frankly, go

1107
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:47,040
Speaker 2: to war. You are it's on you? Have you been drafted?

1108
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:51,960
Speaker 2: Honestly one of those Viking shield means yes.

1109
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:58,680
Speaker 5: King so inspired by Haley Robson earlier, I just want to.

1110
01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 2: Just give me the power. I'm still fired up from her.

1111
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 4: So he's still fired up, Like, I don't know, she's

1112
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:09,360
Speaker 4: very inspiring and I don't. I don't you know, I'm

1113
01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:10,120
Speaker 4: not one of those people.

1114
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:11,600
Speaker 2: I don't know. She just really inspired me. I am a

1115
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:13,800
Speaker 2: little bit. Yeah, I love it. I love it. I

1116
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:15,760
Speaker 2: love it. I love it too. Yeah, listen, I guess

1117
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:19,720
Speaker 2: it just speaks to the fact that there is a community, right,

1118
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:22,720
Speaker 2: There's there are voices, and there are people that touch

1119
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:26,640
Speaker 2: our hearts that we just aren't necessarily expecting. And again,

1120
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:29,640
Speaker 2: if you haven't joined the convo, please do eight eight

1121
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 2: eight three one crime. Uh you know Sam and Adam

1122
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 2: are waiting by the phone literally, or you could always

1123
01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:40,000
Speaker 2: leave us a talk bag, please do so Yeah, back

1124
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:44,040
Speaker 2: to this nexium. Okay, So did I say it wrong?

1125
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:48,520
Speaker 2: I'm like the shampoo. It's like n x v I

1126
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:52,080
Speaker 2: M is something they use like weird. They use like weird,

1127
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:55,520
Speaker 2: like yeah, Roman numbers or something like it. Right, it's

1128
01:03:55,560 --> 01:03:58,920
Speaker 2: all very well, that's how Yeah, it's n x v

1129
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:01,920
Speaker 2: I M. I think is it is? It's just very weird. Well,

1130
01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:06,840
Speaker 2: I think cults and abuse in general have similar it's

1131
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:10,000
Speaker 2: a similar blueprint, and I think, honestly, Haley said it

1132
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:13,200
Speaker 2: so well, it's really not until you step away from

1133
01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:17,240
Speaker 2: it entirely. Well, and you've had some distance from it,

1134
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:20,720
Speaker 2: can you actually see what right just happened?

1135
01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:21,040
Speaker 3: Right?

1136
01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:21,840
Speaker 7: You know? I don't.

1137
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:23,760
Speaker 4: I don't think you realize until you're out of it,

1138
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:26,680
Speaker 4: Like Haley said, like you you know, the course of control,

1139
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:29,120
Speaker 4: Like I'm gonna call your parents and tell them you're

1140
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:31,120
Speaker 4: doing this. Well, Nixion was doing the same thing with

1141
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:35,120
Speaker 4: this collateral. Yes, like I'm gonna you're gonna you're gonna

1142
01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:37,520
Speaker 4: make this video or write a letter saying all these

1143
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:40,800
Speaker 4: terrible things about like your mother, let's say, right, like

1144
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:44,240
Speaker 4: God forbid, and if you talk, you know, if you

1145
01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:47,280
Speaker 4: talk crap or you want to leave, I'm going to

1146
01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:49,560
Speaker 4: send this to her. Your mother is going to know

1147
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 4: everything that happened, that you've done, and that you're doing

1148
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 4: these terrible things.

1149
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:56,920
Speaker 2: And by the way, that happened, I think that happened

1150
01:04:56,960 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 2: to Cat, I said Catherine Oxenberg. Yeah, she was a

1151
01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:03,720
Speaker 2: dynasty she was one of the Dynasty stars and her

1152
01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:07,680
Speaker 2: daughter in this cult. Yeah. Part of like the interesting

1153
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:09,600
Speaker 2: part of her story was that, you know, this was

1154
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:12,000
Speaker 2: a mother who was trying to get her daughter out

1155
01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:12,600
Speaker 2: of the cult.

1156
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:13,400
Speaker 3: She had.

1157
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 2: You know, she had a big career, she had a big,

1158
01:05:16,120 --> 01:05:19,320
Speaker 2: you know, affluent life, and yet her daughter has somehow

1159
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:22,480
Speaker 2: found herself in this dumb cult with you know, this

1160
01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:25,919
Speaker 2: clown who's claiming to be this you know, super god

1161
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:28,080
Speaker 2: and having sex with all of these young women and

1162
01:05:28,160 --> 01:05:33,040
Speaker 2: branding his initials on their thighs. And now Alison Mack,

1163
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:36,320
Speaker 2: who had a very big career as an actress, who

1164
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 2: has now served her time. And it's funny, it's like,

1165
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:42,680
Speaker 2: you know, we that is the thing about grooming that

1166
01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:45,320
Speaker 2: I think is cyclical, right, but I think I think

1167
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:47,960
Speaker 2: this is the conversation, right, So it is, and we

1168
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:51,000
Speaker 2: hear this even with Haley. Suddenly you're in the beehive.

1169
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:54,520
Speaker 2: It's terrible. You acclimate, you get used to it, and

1170
01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:57,840
Speaker 2: now you're sort of hanging on your abusers every word.

1171
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:00,200
Speaker 2: And then he says, hey, bring us a few more,

1172
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:03,240
Speaker 2: bring us a little bit more, and then that makes sense,

1173
01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:05,240
Speaker 2: and then you bring a little more, and little do

1174
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:09,760
Speaker 2: you know, suddenly you're the groomer. Unintentionally you're also the victim.

1175
01:06:10,120 --> 01:06:13,480
Speaker 2: So it's like because you're totally proplicated of course, right. So,

1176
01:06:13,720 --> 01:06:15,840
Speaker 2: Katherine Oxenberg, you mentioned that, I'm so glad you Dix.

1177
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:19,200
Speaker 2: I had forgotten about that her She and her daughter

1178
01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:21,840
Speaker 2: went to one of these self help seminars. Oh, and

1179
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:25,000
Speaker 2: they were both kind of into it for a hot minute.

1180
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:28,360
Speaker 2: But Catherine was like, eh, not for me. But India,

1181
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:30,880
Speaker 2: her daughter was like, I kind of like this. So

1182
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:33,960
Speaker 2: what happened was because Catherine was like, it's not for

1183
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:35,920
Speaker 2: me and never really kind of signed up for like

1184
01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:39,360
Speaker 2: the whole thing. India, her daughter, lovely by the way,

1185
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:42,800
Speaker 2: has to cut her mom off and like stops talking

1186
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:47,520
Speaker 2: to her, and there's a documentary. It's called Seduced Inside

1187
01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:50,760
Speaker 2: the Nixium Cult, and it came out like right during

1188
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:51,920
Speaker 2: it came out during COVID.

1189
01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:55,240
Speaker 4: I think it's very good. I feel like it's very good.

1190
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:58,920
Speaker 4: And that's her story. That's Catherine's story trying to get

1191
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:02,560
Speaker 4: her daughter. And the filmmaker who made the vow, who

1192
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:05,440
Speaker 4: was also in the cult, like we were talking about earlier. Yes,

1193
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:09,960
Speaker 4: he is in Seduced because he's you know, they're working

1194
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:13,600
Speaker 4: together to get everybody out, the victims out of the cult.

1195
01:07:13,640 --> 01:07:16,400
Speaker 2: It's very good. So even though I've seen all of

1196
01:07:16,440 --> 01:07:20,000
Speaker 2: these somehow somewhere forgetting a part, this is the part

1197
01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:23,680
Speaker 2: that I didn't totally get. So the filmmaker who's a male, Yes,

1198
01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:26,640
Speaker 2: what was his involvement? He didn't know his wife was

1199
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:30,240
Speaker 2: in the cult? No, well he thought she was not

1200
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:33,040
Speaker 2: in the cult. No, well no, they're all in the cult.

1201
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:36,920
Speaker 2: But the women that we're talking about are in doss

1202
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:40,080
Speaker 2: the cult, within the cult, oh, the subcult. That's it's

1203
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:41,360
Speaker 2: a secret. It's a secret.

1204
01:07:42,200 --> 01:07:44,919
Speaker 4: Oh I didn't realize that, right, right, But he gets

1205
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:46,600
Speaker 4: like wind of it, he gets like wind of it.

1206
01:07:46,640 --> 01:07:48,920
Speaker 4: He's like, uh, he like tries he leaves, but he

1207
01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:51,040
Speaker 4: wants his wife to come with him, and she's like,

1208
01:07:51,080 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 4: you're being crazy, You're not you know, she's like still brainwashed.

1209
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:56,480
Speaker 4: But he leaves. He's like, I got to get out

1210
01:07:56,480 --> 01:07:58,880
Speaker 4: of here. I can't do this, you know, And she

1211
01:07:59,080 --> 01:08:03,040
Speaker 4: eventually follows it, like very shortly after, very shortly after,

1212
01:08:03,120 --> 01:08:06,560
Speaker 4: didn't didn't stay in Wow. So they they made the

1213
01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:10,200
Speaker 4: vow and he filmed all this while while it was happening,

1214
01:08:10,320 --> 01:08:12,880
Speaker 4: like while it was happening. And then they go to

1215
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:16,799
Speaker 4: Catherine Oxenberg's house because you know, she's powerful and whatnot,

1216
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:17,639
Speaker 4: and she's.

1217
01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:21,759
Speaker 2: Like living in Malibu if I remember correctly, right, And

1218
01:08:22,400 --> 01:08:25,519
Speaker 2: then they try to get India out in India's like no,

1219
01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:28,320
Speaker 2: I'm happy, No, I can't talk to real and cuts

1220
01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:31,439
Speaker 2: off communication with her mother. But anyway, I don't want

1221
01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:32,000
Speaker 2: to give too much way.

1222
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:32,880
Speaker 4: You watch it.

1223
01:08:33,040 --> 01:08:34,800
Speaker 2: You have to go watch it. It's also reminding me

1224
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:37,400
Speaker 2: of that other dock with the TikTok star who's in

1225
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:39,680
Speaker 2: like the dance house. I have seen this one. I

1226
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:41,920
Speaker 2: haven't seen that. Like it's apparently like you know, you

1227
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:45,000
Speaker 2: see the dancers on TikTok or on Instagram that are

1228
01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:48,160
Speaker 2: doing all the choreographed cool dancing, and little do you know,

1229
01:08:48,240 --> 01:08:51,280
Speaker 2: they're all in a house living together. That in the

1230
01:08:51,320 --> 01:08:53,840
Speaker 2: house has like a million different looks, so it looks

1231
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:55,639
Speaker 2: like they're in a million different places, but they're actually

1232
01:08:55,640 --> 01:08:59,240
Speaker 2: in the same mansion, and that mansion is owned and

1233
01:08:59,360 --> 01:09:03,479
Speaker 2: run someone who's in a cult, who's taking all their money,

1234
01:09:03,960 --> 01:09:07,240
Speaker 2: and the families are like, my daughter is like a

1235
01:09:07,280 --> 01:09:10,719
Speaker 2: ballerina and an incredible hip hop dancer, and she's somehow

1236
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:14,400
Speaker 2: trapped in this weird dance house. We are out and

1237
01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:16,160
Speaker 2: she's coming out.

1238
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:20,160
Speaker 5: Is it Dancing for the Devil the seven million Dolt?

1239
01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:23,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that's actually an interesting watch. I don't think

1240
01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:26,439
Speaker 2: that they've gotten out. I think that one daughter is

1241
01:09:26,479 --> 01:09:28,840
Speaker 2: still dancing for the Devil a legendly.

1242
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:31,559
Speaker 4: Allegendly well, one thing that's really common you know, through

1243
01:09:31,640 --> 01:09:36,320
Speaker 4: our whole themes tonight actually, but with the Vow and Seduced,

1244
01:09:36,439 --> 01:09:40,679
Speaker 4: the Katherine Oxenberg documentary one, it really highlights and provides

1245
01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:44,160
Speaker 4: like a really unique and personal perspective on the grooming

1246
01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:48,360
Speaker 4: and control mechanisms that are being used on these young people.

1247
01:09:48,360 --> 01:09:49,160
Speaker 2: And I think it's.

1248
01:09:49,080 --> 01:09:52,240
Speaker 4: Important to watch all, especially when we're talking about these themes, right, Yes,

1249
01:09:52,560 --> 01:09:55,920
Speaker 4: And it's so it's so so good, so good, So

1250
01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:57,760
Speaker 4: please go watch it and then and then.

1251
01:09:57,720 --> 01:09:59,479
Speaker 2: We can talk me doctor Jess can come on and

1252
01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:01,959
Speaker 2: talk to us a little bit about this too, because

1253
01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:06,160
Speaker 2: it's so complicated. But I think it's really easy to

1254
01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:07,840
Speaker 2: be victim too. Oh I do too.

1255
01:10:08,280 --> 01:10:11,400
Speaker 4: I absolutely agree. And like you said, I mean any

1256
01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:12,920
Speaker 4: one of us could happen to any one of us,

1257
01:10:13,240 --> 01:10:17,479
Speaker 4: and the isolation and also just the family. Remember if

1258
01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:19,479
Speaker 4: you're feeling a little like lost in the sauce in

1259
01:10:19,479 --> 01:10:22,320
Speaker 4: your soul and you're not feeling whole, by the way,

1260
01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:24,639
Speaker 4: raise your hand, how many times has anybody been there?

1261
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:28,799
Speaker 2: How many times? If you're in that space and somebody

1262
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:32,639
Speaker 2: rolls in really gently and they see you and they

1263
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:35,880
Speaker 2: think you're amazing and they totally get you and see

1264
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:39,920
Speaker 2: your potential and recognize your highest and best self, that

1265
01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:44,880
Speaker 2: is a great feeling. And then that suddenly you realize

1266
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:48,439
Speaker 2: is a form of entrapment as opposed to real sight,

1267
01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:51,800
Speaker 2: and that can be tier one. So I think that

1268
01:10:51,960 --> 01:10:54,960
Speaker 2: tier one version for everybody to hear is, you know,

1269
01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:58,840
Speaker 2: care for ourselves, right, everybody needs self care, pride in oneself,

1270
01:10:58,920 --> 01:11:01,400
Speaker 2: take care of yourself, feel good to yourself, be kind

1271
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:05,439
Speaker 2: to yourself, because man, it's tough out there. It really is.

1272
01:11:05,800 --> 01:11:08,320
Speaker 2: It truly is. And not that a face mask is

1273
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:10,120
Speaker 2: going to cure any of this, but you know, just

1274
01:11:10,160 --> 01:11:12,880
Speaker 2: like being nice to yourself when you're feeling down on

1275
01:11:12,920 --> 01:11:15,800
Speaker 2: yourself and beating yourself up, it's almost like that's the

1276
01:11:15,880 --> 01:11:18,680
Speaker 2: perfect time for someone to swoop in and say, no, no, no,

1277
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:22,400
Speaker 2: don't be down on yourself. You're amazing. And then that's

1278
01:11:23,439 --> 01:11:26,920
Speaker 2: some weirdo named Keith who's like, and come join my

1279
01:11:27,000 --> 01:11:29,600
Speaker 2: weird sex colt and I'm going to put your my

1280
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:30,880
Speaker 2: initials in your thigh.

1281
01:11:31,479 --> 01:11:33,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, And it was like a ceremony. They'd have to

1282
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:36,840
Speaker 4: strip naked in front of all the other women and

1283
01:11:37,080 --> 01:11:39,760
Speaker 4: literally get branded. And one of the women was describing

1284
01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:43,280
Speaker 4: like she could smell it. She could smell it, and

1285
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:45,400
Speaker 4: it looked like a little it was like a circle,

1286
01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:47,599
Speaker 4: and it looked like a mountain with like a sun.

1287
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:49,719
Speaker 2: But it was really k R. Oh my god.

1288
01:11:49,960 --> 01:11:51,479
Speaker 4: But it was like sideways. You have to look at

1289
01:11:51,479 --> 01:11:54,840
Speaker 4: it sideways, And so it literally says KR for Keith Vernier.

1290
01:11:55,120 --> 01:11:57,120
Speaker 4: He was branding these women, branding them.

1291
01:11:57,240 --> 01:11:59,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, he just like tilted his initials and it was

1292
01:11:59,439 --> 01:12:04,080
Speaker 2: always like right above like your pubic bone. Yeah, and

1293
01:12:04,080 --> 01:12:05,640
Speaker 2: now they can't get rid of it. And now they

1294
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:08,200
Speaker 2: can't get rid of it, which is really also an

1295
01:12:08,240 --> 01:12:12,599
Speaker 2: added tear right, terrible, terrible, terrible quinny. You're just giving

1296
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:15,120
Speaker 2: a very strange look right now. What's the look now?

1297
01:12:15,280 --> 01:12:20,240
Speaker 5: Just thinking about grooming and really and being branded and

1298
01:12:20,360 --> 01:12:21,320
Speaker 5: all of the above.

1299
01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:24,400
Speaker 2: It does it like suddenly you look like either you

1300
01:12:24,479 --> 01:12:27,640
Speaker 2: were super mad or about to ask a question, but

1301
01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:28,920
Speaker 2: you were feeling mad as hell.

1302
01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:31,680
Speaker 5: Absolutely, And if you are feeling mad as hell, we're

1303
01:12:31,680 --> 01:12:33,120
Speaker 5: at eight to eight three one crime.

1304
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:34,479
Speaker 2: Give us a call.

1305
01:12:34,640 --> 01:12:38,439
Speaker 5: We have been talking about the Nexium cult and Jeffrey

1306
01:12:38,439 --> 01:12:40,599
Speaker 5: Ebstein and we'd love to hear your thoughts on any

1307
01:12:40,640 --> 01:12:43,000
Speaker 5: of it. And now we'd let's turn our attention to

1308
01:12:43,200 --> 01:12:44,320
Speaker 5: Delphi bo.

1309
01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:48,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, another one of my things. Night is very heavy.

1310
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:51,400
Speaker 2: There's a lot to talk about it, yes, but this one.

1311
01:12:51,680 --> 01:12:53,400
Speaker 2: As soon as we were all talking about it, I

1312
01:12:53,439 --> 01:12:54,960
Speaker 2: was like, oh, well, the good news is we have

1313
01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:58,160
Speaker 2: body to discuss this with. Because you're such on the

1314
01:12:58,200 --> 01:13:01,040
Speaker 2: frontline of this case, it's so close to your heart,

1315
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:02,360
Speaker 2: it's rough.

1316
01:13:02,400 --> 01:13:05,439
Speaker 4: So Richard Allen's appellate team has filed Richard Allen of

1317
01:13:05,680 --> 01:13:11,519
Speaker 4: is the convicted man responsible for killing Abby and Libby

1318
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:16,200
Speaker 4: in Delphi, Indiana in twenty seventeen, and his appellate team

1319
01:13:16,280 --> 01:13:20,840
Speaker 4: have filed twelve hunderd pages of previously unseen evidence in

1320
01:13:20,880 --> 01:13:23,200
Speaker 4: an effort to challenge his conviction.

1321
01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:25,240
Speaker 2: In the twenty seventeen.

1322
01:13:24,840 --> 01:13:29,800
Speaker 4: Delphi murders, Abby Williams and Liberty German were murdered near

1323
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:33,439
Speaker 4: a hiking trail in Delphi, Indiana, and the killer remained

1324
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:37,760
Speaker 4: unidentified until Allen's twenty twenty two arrest, and he was.

1325
01:13:37,720 --> 01:13:41,120
Speaker 2: Convicted a year ago this week.

1326
01:13:41,160 --> 01:13:46,080
Speaker 4: Actually, Allen's defense had planned to argue that practitioners of

1327
01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:50,760
Speaker 4: odinism were responsible, but the judge barred evidence pointing to

1328
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:53,960
Speaker 4: any third party suspects during the trial because there was

1329
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:57,880
Speaker 4: a lack of nexus. They didn't meet the bar of

1330
01:13:57,920 --> 01:14:03,559
Speaker 4: evidence that's required to propose was this third party culpability. Well,

1331
01:14:05,200 --> 01:14:08,120
Speaker 4: now they're appealing it based on that. They're they're appealing

1332
01:14:08,200 --> 01:14:10,599
Speaker 4: it based on that because the FBI and a couple

1333
01:14:10,640 --> 01:14:15,000
Speaker 4: of members of the Indiana State Police basically thought that

1334
01:14:15,120 --> 01:14:17,519
Speaker 4: initially when this crime was committed, they they said that

1335
01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:20,479
Speaker 4: it looked like the bodies were moved and staged and

1336
01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:24,280
Speaker 4: were part of this odonist.

1337
01:14:25,280 --> 01:14:25,759
Speaker 2: Ritual.

1338
01:14:26,240 --> 01:14:31,640
Speaker 4: Okay, it just so happens that Abby, one of the

1339
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:37,240
Speaker 4: victims in this case, beautiful twelve year old girl, was

1340
01:14:37,479 --> 01:14:41,080
Speaker 4: friends with this guy's son. His name is Brad Holder,

1341
01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:44,800
Speaker 4: while brad Holder is a self proclaimed odinist.

1342
01:14:45,360 --> 01:14:47,439
Speaker 2: Okay, so you got to.

1343
01:14:47,520 --> 01:14:50,160
Speaker 4: Follow the train here, ye, all right, it looks like

1344
01:14:50,200 --> 01:14:54,320
Speaker 4: the bodies are staged, and the FBI and the Indiana

1345
01:14:54,320 --> 01:14:56,360
Speaker 4: States some people of the Indiana State Police are like,

1346
01:14:56,400 --> 01:15:00,000
Speaker 4: this looks like a ritual. And then Abby's friends and

1347
01:15:00,080 --> 01:15:03,240
Speaker 4: kind of semi dating Bradholder's son, and Bradholder as a

1348
01:15:03,240 --> 01:15:06,280
Speaker 4: self proclaimed odonist. And by the way, he had a

1349
01:15:06,320 --> 01:15:09,400
Speaker 4: really weird photo that he posted to his Facebook of

1350
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:12,400
Speaker 4: a drawing that looks exactly like the crime scene and

1351
01:15:12,439 --> 01:15:16,080
Speaker 4: how the girls were posed. Who so uh yeah, And

1352
01:15:16,120 --> 01:15:19,719
Speaker 4: this was all in the Frank's Memorandum that came out

1353
01:15:20,280 --> 01:15:23,880
Speaker 4: in like the summer of twenty twenty three, and they

1354
01:15:23,920 --> 01:15:26,200
Speaker 4: had a hearing. And if you guys know what a

1355
01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:30,439
Speaker 4: Frank's hearing is, it's when the defense is accusing the

1356
01:15:30,479 --> 01:15:35,640
Speaker 4: sheriff's department or authorities of lying in order to procure

1357
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:39,000
Speaker 4: a search warrant. So then anything procured from the search

1358
01:15:39,040 --> 01:15:41,400
Speaker 4: warrant is like the fruit of the poisonous tree. Right,

1359
01:15:41,520 --> 01:15:45,240
Speaker 4: So they're basically saying the sheriff lied, and I agree

1360
01:15:45,320 --> 01:15:47,840
Speaker 4: the sheriff did lie to get the search warrant because

1361
01:15:47,880 --> 01:15:49,839
Speaker 4: they altered some of the witness statements.

1362
01:15:50,240 --> 01:15:53,799
Speaker 2: Wow, it's very complicated. This is a very that's major show.

1363
01:15:54,080 --> 01:15:54,599
Speaker 2: It is major.

1364
01:15:54,640 --> 01:15:57,439
Speaker 4: So now it a loophole or is that it's not

1365
01:15:57,520 --> 01:15:59,320
Speaker 4: a lejor it's a major thing.

1366
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:01,200
Speaker 2: Well, they had they had the Frank's hearing. It was

1367
01:16:01,200 --> 01:16:02,360
Speaker 2: a three day hearing in September.

1368
01:16:02,439 --> 01:16:05,680
Speaker 4: I think it was twenty twenty three, and the judge said, no,

1369
01:16:05,840 --> 01:16:08,400
Speaker 4: you can't present this because you haven't met the threshold

1370
01:16:08,439 --> 01:16:12,920
Speaker 4: that I require this nexus to present third party culpability.

1371
01:16:13,400 --> 01:16:16,839
Speaker 4: While they're basing their appeal on that denial, the defense

1372
01:16:16,880 --> 01:16:19,840
Speaker 4: and the appellate team is saying, this should have been

1373
01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:21,880
Speaker 4: granted and we should have been able to present this

1374
01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:26,120
Speaker 4: alternative suspect theory, but it was denied wrongly.

1375
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:29,320
Speaker 2: Basically got it. Yeah, And by the way, just like

1376
01:16:29,439 --> 01:16:31,720
Speaker 2: hearing it again, this is not the case that I

1377
01:16:31,800 --> 01:16:35,639
Speaker 2: know nearly as well as you do and as many well, honestly,

1378
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:38,160
Speaker 2: because the girls are so perfect and beautiful, it's actually

1379
01:16:38,200 --> 01:16:40,840
Speaker 2: hard for me. I think about for Libyan Abbey and

1380
01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:43,920
Speaker 2: their family's hearts go out. It's one of those cases

1381
01:16:43,920 --> 01:16:46,679
Speaker 2: that I actually am like slightly allergic to because it's

1382
01:16:46,760 --> 01:16:48,960
Speaker 2: just I don't know where the line my head is,

1383
01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:50,840
Speaker 2: but it's actually too devastating.

1384
01:16:51,720 --> 01:16:51,960
Speaker 3: Right.

1385
01:16:52,280 --> 01:16:55,639
Speaker 2: But what I have seen, and I have the benefit of,

1386
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:58,719
Speaker 2: you know, working with you every day and being my friend,

1387
01:16:59,439 --> 01:17:02,400
Speaker 2: it does see there's something there is there's something there.

1388
01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:04,760
Speaker 4: You know, there's the people on one side that think

1389
01:17:04,800 --> 01:17:07,479
Speaker 4: he's totally guilty, one hundred percent, and then there's people

1390
01:17:07,760 --> 01:17:10,120
Speaker 4: on the other that think he's totally innocent. I'm on

1391
01:17:10,720 --> 01:17:13,280
Speaker 4: the innocent side, but not all the way right.

1392
01:17:13,320 --> 01:17:15,800
Speaker 2: It's so complicated. It's very complicated, and like, how do

1393
01:17:15,920 --> 01:17:18,680
Speaker 2: you put somebody away for not all the way right?

1394
01:17:19,320 --> 01:17:23,920
Speaker 2: Speaking of I mean, let's talk come from clemency and

1395
01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:26,479
Speaker 2: the next break because can we finish on this though,

1396
01:17:26,479 --> 01:17:28,680
Speaker 2: because I think we have a few more questions to

1397
01:17:28,720 --> 01:17:32,799
Speaker 2: get to and then obviously this very unique case where

1398
01:17:33,040 --> 01:17:46,400
Speaker 2: somebody dipped death. Today, welcome back to True Crime tonight

1399
01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:50,080
Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time. I'm

1400
01:17:50,120 --> 01:17:54,320
Speaker 2: Stephanie Leidecker here with Courtney Armstrong. Body move in and

1401
01:17:54,560 --> 01:17:58,800
Speaker 2: we have a caller on the phone. Hi, Melanie. We're

1402
01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:02,559
Speaker 2: so happy that you've called and yeah, welcome to the show.

1403
01:18:03,000 --> 01:18:03,400
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1404
01:18:04,479 --> 01:18:07,960
Speaker 2: Tell us everything. How are you? Yeah, what's your question

1405
01:18:08,160 --> 01:18:09,400
Speaker 2: or do you have a share?

1406
01:18:10,080 --> 01:18:16,760
Speaker 7: Well, my name's Melanie. I'm a survivor at molestation and

1407
01:18:16,920 --> 01:18:20,920
Speaker 7: this still with Epstein files and stuff. I don't feel

1408
01:18:20,920 --> 01:18:24,639
Speaker 7: like it's right for the survivors to have to keep

1409
01:18:24,680 --> 01:18:29,640
Speaker 7: telling their story over and over because each time that

1410
01:18:30,200 --> 01:18:34,080
Speaker 7: it's time that we do, it just keeps getting harder

1411
01:18:34,120 --> 01:18:34,759
Speaker 7: for us.

1412
01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:38,760
Speaker 2: And it's triggering, you know what too. It's funny. We

1413
01:18:38,760 --> 01:18:42,679
Speaker 2: were talking during the break and we even asked her,

1414
01:18:43,000 --> 01:18:46,840
Speaker 2: we're like, Haley, even seeing your you know, the person

1415
01:18:46,840 --> 01:18:50,400
Speaker 2: who's done this to you his photo everywhere, that must

1416
01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:53,800
Speaker 2: be so triggering, And of course the answer is yes.

1417
01:18:54,840 --> 01:18:58,799
Speaker 2: But it's also pretty powerful because like the more you share,

1418
01:18:59,600 --> 01:19:02,920
Speaker 2: the more the more you share, and we're so grateful

1419
01:19:02,920 --> 01:19:04,400
Speaker 2: that you're sharing with us.

1420
01:19:04,760 --> 01:19:07,759
Speaker 7: Well, thank you. My heart goes up to the family

1421
01:19:08,280 --> 01:19:12,320
Speaker 7: of the one that yeah, lot I think her life

1422
01:19:12,479 --> 01:19:14,240
Speaker 7: due to what happened.

1423
01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:18,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, Virginia Gouffrey, who's you know. She committed suicide in

1424
01:19:18,680 --> 01:19:22,040
Speaker 2: April and by the way. You know, people are like, well,

1425
01:19:22,120 --> 01:19:25,200
Speaker 2: she took her life. I'm like, yeah, because of a

1426
01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:29,880
Speaker 2: very long history of abuse and that's sort of the

1427
01:19:30,479 --> 01:19:34,280
Speaker 2: tough result. And again because people aren't allowed to speak

1428
01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:37,880
Speaker 2: of it because it's so hard. Even just you calling

1429
01:19:37,960 --> 01:19:40,120
Speaker 2: right now takes a lot of courage and we're so

1430
01:19:40,240 --> 01:19:45,200
Speaker 2: grateful for it. Thank you, Melanie. We love you Melanie too.

1431
01:19:46,080 --> 01:19:54,520
Speaker 7: Thank you my napping back when before they even registered

1432
01:19:55,160 --> 01:19:56,439
Speaker 7: sex offenders.

1433
01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:00,680
Speaker 2: With us for a long time. Yeah, yeah, like you've

1434
01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:02,120
Speaker 2: been living with that for so long.

1435
01:20:03,760 --> 01:20:05,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, never get over it.

1436
01:20:06,040 --> 01:20:08,120
Speaker 2: You never get over it. Is there anything you can share,

1437
01:20:08,240 --> 01:20:09,759
Speaker 2: like just what we have you And if the answer

1438
01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:14,439
Speaker 2: is no, that's totally fine too. But just like knowing

1439
01:20:14,439 --> 01:20:16,640
Speaker 2: where you are now, is there something to share to

1440
01:20:16,880 --> 01:20:22,400
Speaker 2: other young women who maybe are just a little stuck

1441
01:20:22,439 --> 01:20:25,000
Speaker 2: in their heads about what to do if they've had

1442
01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:29,000
Speaker 2: that level of experience? Is there any advice to share?

1443
01:20:29,240 --> 01:20:33,120
Speaker 7: Know that it wasn't just know that it wasn't their fault,

1444
01:20:34,840 --> 01:20:38,880
Speaker 7: and to try to reach out to somebody and let

1445
01:20:38,920 --> 01:20:44,400
Speaker 7: them know that what's going on and if it's happening

1446
01:20:44,520 --> 01:20:49,800
Speaker 7: to them, you know, go to you know, tell a

1447
01:20:49,920 --> 01:20:53,280
Speaker 7: place counselor or somebody.

1448
01:20:54,400 --> 01:20:56,080
Speaker 2: That's right. I think that's great.

1449
01:20:56,200 --> 01:20:59,920
Speaker 5: Great advice, Melanie is to tell someone in the secret

1450
01:21:00,120 --> 01:21:01,200
Speaker 5: isn't yours?

1451
01:21:01,240 --> 01:21:03,560
Speaker 2: To keep? Yeah, like it exactly.

1452
01:21:05,800 --> 01:21:08,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you very very much. Is great advice, and

1453
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:09,800
Speaker 5: we really appreciate it.

1454
01:21:09,880 --> 01:21:11,400
Speaker 2: And stay strong and stay brave.

1455
01:21:11,479 --> 01:21:13,920
Speaker 4: You're not alone, right, you're not alone, and you've been

1456
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:15,559
Speaker 4: living with us for a long time.

1457
01:21:15,640 --> 01:21:17,439
Speaker 2: So thank you for the call. We really really really

1458
01:21:17,439 --> 01:21:20,960
Speaker 2: do appreciate it. And think about how special, even since

1459
01:21:21,280 --> 01:21:25,360
Speaker 2: Melanie's experience, that there actually is something being done, that

1460
01:21:25,439 --> 01:21:29,880
Speaker 2: there actually are predators being identified right, that there's a

1461
01:21:30,520 --> 01:21:32,680
Speaker 2: you know, you don't want to do this, but there

1462
01:21:32,760 --> 01:21:34,600
Speaker 2: is like a little map thing you can check for,

1463
01:21:34,720 --> 01:21:37,680
Speaker 2: like you know, sexual predators that have been registered in

1464
01:21:37,720 --> 01:21:40,920
Speaker 2: your area, depending upon where you live. You may be

1465
01:21:41,080 --> 01:21:45,760
Speaker 2: surprised how many like notifications there are. Gosh, it is

1466
01:21:46,240 --> 01:21:49,240
Speaker 2: not the fun, it's not a fun look, but it's

1467
01:21:49,320 --> 01:21:52,880
Speaker 2: important because again, like at least there's some conversations about it,

1468
01:21:52,920 --> 01:21:57,800
Speaker 2: there's something actionable. Imagine sweet Melody Melanie when she was

1469
01:21:57,840 --> 01:22:00,559
Speaker 2: coming up, like there was nowhere there, there was no

1470
01:22:00,720 --> 01:22:04,120
Speaker 2: list of offenders, there was no recourse. So I do

1471
01:22:04,200 --> 01:22:07,320
Speaker 2: think we're I think we're all scratching at it. I

1472
01:22:07,360 --> 01:22:10,760
Speaker 2: feel very hopeful and I want to be really clear

1473
01:22:10,800 --> 01:22:12,719
Speaker 2: about this, and I know I live in a little

1474
01:22:12,720 --> 01:22:16,280
Speaker 2: bit of a bubble happiness wise, but it's not true.

1475
01:22:16,880 --> 01:22:19,200
Speaker 2: It's a choice. I choose to try to really like

1476
01:22:19,360 --> 01:22:22,960
Speaker 2: see the happy in it all things. I believe in

1477
01:22:23,000 --> 01:22:25,959
Speaker 2: my heart of hearts that there is a most hopeful

1478
01:22:26,160 --> 01:22:29,640
Speaker 2: day is upon us where people are going to be

1479
01:22:30,200 --> 01:22:34,000
Speaker 2: more together than ever before, and transparency will be the

1480
01:22:34,120 --> 01:22:39,520
Speaker 2: name of the game. Period. I think we're like here now.

1481
01:22:39,680 --> 01:22:41,840
Speaker 2: It's not like in a million years. It's not two

1482
01:22:41,920 --> 01:22:45,600
Speaker 2: years from now, not y two k like tomorrow is

1483
01:22:45,680 --> 01:22:49,439
Speaker 2: the possibility for that. It's very hopeful. I hope, So

1484
01:22:50,720 --> 01:22:55,639
Speaker 2: I hope. So, Okay, should we sing.

1485
01:22:56,040 --> 01:23:01,479
Speaker 5: No, No, nobody needs that, but what we should acknowledge? Yeah,

1486
01:23:01,560 --> 01:23:04,080
Speaker 5: I'll speak for myself. Nobody needs to hear me. Nobody

1487
01:23:04,120 --> 01:23:09,719
Speaker 5: think that's a crime in and of itself. But today

1488
01:23:09,800 --> 01:23:13,320
Speaker 5: is actually a special day on a lot of different levels.

1489
01:23:14,840 --> 01:23:19,960
Speaker 2: So it has been. It has been three years today.

1490
01:23:21,200 --> 01:23:27,000
Speaker 5: Since the tragedy in Idaho happened, and Kayla Gonsolvas and

1491
01:23:27,120 --> 01:23:37,960
Speaker 5: Madison Mogan, Ethan Shapen and Xana kernodle Right three years wow,

1492
01:23:38,520 --> 01:23:41,080
Speaker 5: And I know you both have thoughts about that. But

1493
01:23:41,400 --> 01:23:47,240
Speaker 5: the other uh side of that heavy coin is it

1494
01:23:47,320 --> 01:23:54,120
Speaker 5: also is National Kindness Day, Oh yeah, which actually ties

1495
01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:57,160
Speaker 5: in somewhat to Maddie may Day, which I think body

1496
01:23:57,200 --> 01:23:58,680
Speaker 5: you wanted to yeah, and.

1497
01:23:59,120 --> 01:24:01,600
Speaker 4: You know, we had a call earlier and about what

1498
01:24:01,600 --> 01:24:04,000
Speaker 4: we're going to talk about tonight, and you had mentioned

1499
01:24:04,040 --> 01:24:05,840
Speaker 4: that it's National Kindness Day, and I was like, oh

1500
01:24:05,840 --> 01:24:10,439
Speaker 4: my gosh, well that's really interesting because you know, each

1501
01:24:10,479 --> 01:24:12,960
Speaker 4: of the victims kind of has their own special day,

1502
01:24:13,720 --> 01:24:17,280
Speaker 4: and so instead of you know, talking about.

1503
01:24:16,600 --> 01:24:19,839
Speaker 2: You know, the murder in this on this day.

1504
01:24:19,680 --> 01:24:21,200
Speaker 4: We thought it would be a good idea to talk

1505
01:24:21,240 --> 01:24:25,080
Speaker 4: about them and their special day since it is National

1506
01:24:25,200 --> 01:24:25,800
Speaker 4: Kindness Day.

1507
01:24:25,840 --> 01:24:27,280
Speaker 2: So it has been three years since.

1508
01:24:27,080 --> 01:24:33,840
Speaker 4: Idaho and on every May twenty fifth it's Mattie may Day.

1509
01:24:34,360 --> 01:24:38,639
Speaker 4: And what Maddie may Day is is random acts of kindness.

1510
01:24:38,680 --> 01:24:41,280
Speaker 4: And what I have done on Mattie may Day is

1511
01:24:41,320 --> 01:24:45,120
Speaker 4: I'll pay for the coffee of somebody behind me in

1512
01:24:45,160 --> 01:24:46,720
Speaker 4: the morning on my work.

1513
01:24:47,040 --> 01:24:50,120
Speaker 2: So that's what I do, and it always works. That's

1514
01:24:50,160 --> 01:24:52,040
Speaker 2: such a suggestion.

1515
01:24:52,560 --> 01:24:55,360
Speaker 4: It's an easy thing to do, you know, and it

1516
01:24:55,560 --> 01:24:58,880
Speaker 4: just pays respect because Maddie was just such a kind soul.

1517
01:24:59,040 --> 01:25:01,479
Speaker 2: But everyone that knew her so that she was just

1518
01:25:01,520 --> 01:25:02,880
Speaker 2: such a kind soul. That is so.

1519
01:25:02,920 --> 01:25:07,719
Speaker 4: That is May twenty fifth. Okay, June eighth is Kayleie

1520
01:25:07,920 --> 01:25:12,439
Speaker 4: Jade Day. And what the Gonsalva's family is asking is

1521
01:25:12,479 --> 01:25:16,240
Speaker 4: that you do more of what you love, whether it's

1522
01:25:16,680 --> 01:25:18,120
Speaker 4: eating spaghetti.

1523
01:25:17,840 --> 01:25:21,519
Speaker 2: Or now having all the pot scream yeah, ice scream.

1524
01:25:21,960 --> 01:25:24,800
Speaker 2: If you like to play soccer, go play soccer, Go

1525
01:25:25,080 --> 01:25:27,960
Speaker 2: do things, go watch the sunrise right, yeah, things that

1526
01:25:28,000 --> 01:25:29,920
Speaker 2: you love, do them more.

1527
01:25:30,760 --> 01:25:34,240
Speaker 4: And Xana Carenodle Day, it's also known by this is

1528
01:25:34,280 --> 01:25:37,160
Speaker 4: like one of my favorite things. Xana Cernodle Day is

1529
01:25:37,240 --> 01:25:41,240
Speaker 4: also known as Xanna Palooza. I love that Xanna Palooza.

1530
01:25:41,880 --> 01:25:46,080
Speaker 4: That is July fifth, and her family encourages people to

1531
01:25:46,200 --> 01:25:49,640
Speaker 4: celebrate by being silly and goofy and getting out of

1532
01:25:49,680 --> 01:25:54,040
Speaker 4: your comfort zone, push your boundaries, and making more memories.

1533
01:25:53,680 --> 01:25:55,920
Speaker 2: Just as Xanna did. I every time I see a

1534
01:25:55,960 --> 01:25:57,320
Speaker 2: video of Xanna, she's just.

1535
01:25:57,280 --> 01:26:00,880
Speaker 4: Being silly and goofy and just having fun and and

1536
01:26:00,880 --> 01:26:03,400
Speaker 4: and that's how her family wants you to remember her.

1537
01:26:03,520 --> 01:26:07,439
Speaker 4: So when you celebrate Xana's Day, Xanna Palooza on July fifth,

1538
01:26:07,960 --> 01:26:10,320
Speaker 4: make a silly video, send it to your family, post

1539
01:26:10,360 --> 01:26:13,200
Speaker 4: it to TikTok, just you know, make a fool of yourself,

1540
01:26:13,200 --> 01:26:13,760
Speaker 4: but have fun.

1541
01:26:13,800 --> 01:26:16,639
Speaker 2: We'll celebrate these days too. Specific I think we should.

1542
01:26:17,240 --> 01:26:20,360
Speaker 2: We should add them to our personal calendars, but also

1543
01:26:20,439 --> 01:26:23,000
Speaker 2: to this calendar is yeah, let's do that. Let's do that.

1544
01:26:23,320 --> 01:26:26,240
Speaker 4: And then Ethan Chaffin, he doesn't have like a day

1545
01:26:26,280 --> 01:26:27,640
Speaker 4: specifically that I know of.

1546
01:26:28,880 --> 01:26:29,960
Speaker 2: He is a triplet.

1547
01:26:30,720 --> 01:26:34,799
Speaker 4: And so what their family has done, the Chapin family

1548
01:26:34,880 --> 01:26:39,400
Speaker 4: is they've created this amazing foundation. It's called Ethan Smile,

1549
01:26:40,200 --> 01:26:45,360
Speaker 4: and they they raise money and send kids to school.

1550
01:26:45,720 --> 01:26:48,960
Speaker 4: They've already spent They've already sent a bunch of kids

1551
01:26:49,000 --> 01:26:53,040
Speaker 4: to college amazing through scholarships and whatnot. So you can

1552
01:26:53,040 --> 01:26:56,479
Speaker 4: look that up. It's the Ethan Ethan Smile. And they

1553
01:26:56,520 --> 01:27:01,760
Speaker 4: also sell tulips and candles and all I had literally.

1554
01:27:01,360 --> 01:27:05,519
Speaker 2: My girlfriend came to visit with some friends this weekend

1555
01:27:05,840 --> 01:27:09,439
Speaker 2: and they gifted me this candle, which was from Ethan

1556
01:27:09,520 --> 01:27:14,759
Speaker 2: Chapin's foundation. It's this beautiful, beautiful candle. By the way,

1557
01:27:14,960 --> 01:27:17,240
Speaker 2: I don't know if there's only this color, but they

1558
01:27:17,320 --> 01:27:19,920
Speaker 2: chose this color because it has the colors of sprite.

1559
01:27:20,360 --> 01:27:24,240
Speaker 2: It's like this beautiful green in it, and like I

1560
01:27:24,360 --> 01:27:28,120
Speaker 2: have a little beautiful white votive candle in it and

1561
01:27:28,920 --> 01:27:31,400
Speaker 2: I'm going to light it every night with the show.

1562
01:27:31,760 --> 01:27:36,760
Speaker 2: And you know, we're always thinking of them and their

1563
01:27:36,760 --> 01:27:39,679
Speaker 2: memories are not lost and in such a big way,

1564
01:27:39,880 --> 01:27:43,559
Speaker 2: like globally, these are angels that are looking upon all

1565
01:27:43,600 --> 01:27:44,000
Speaker 2: of us.

1566
01:27:44,040 --> 01:27:47,800
Speaker 5: And yeah, and that actually you asked if that was

1567
01:27:47,840 --> 01:27:50,360
Speaker 5: the only color I'm looking because it's so exquisite. I

1568
01:27:50,360 --> 01:27:54,479
Speaker 5: wanted to and I love the Yeah, exactly. So that

1569
01:27:54,600 --> 01:27:59,599
Speaker 5: candle is called hunder Bear and it completes the triplet sets,

1570
01:27:59,600 --> 01:28:02,559
Speaker 5: so they're indeed are three options. There is a pink

1571
01:28:02,920 --> 01:28:06,960
Speaker 5: one called Maisie's Pugga, and the gift for the holidays

1572
01:28:07,160 --> 01:28:09,839
Speaker 5: is a blue one called Ethan's Smile.

1573
01:28:11,160 --> 01:28:13,760
Speaker 2: By the way, that's a boy beautiful. I'm going to

1574
01:28:13,840 --> 01:28:16,559
Speaker 2: tell you, I'm literally have it in my hand. You

1575
01:28:16,560 --> 01:28:20,120
Speaker 2: guys are looking at it. It's so beautiful, it's like

1576
01:28:20,160 --> 01:28:23,559
Speaker 2: a it's this was a tremendous, beautiful gift. What a

1577
01:28:23,600 --> 01:28:27,080
Speaker 2: great gift to give somebody for the holidays. That and

1578
01:28:27,080 --> 01:28:30,320
Speaker 2: again we're not promoting anything, but yeah, I mean all

1579
01:28:30,360 --> 01:28:32,920
Speaker 2: of help send kids to school and it helps send

1580
01:28:33,960 --> 01:28:37,240
Speaker 2: you can't go wrong, and it's a really substantial, gorgeous

1581
01:28:37,280 --> 01:28:41,240
Speaker 2: candle and ah that like rips my heart open. And

1582
01:28:41,240 --> 01:28:44,320
Speaker 2: by the way, just the fact that Ethan as a triplet.

1583
01:28:44,400 --> 01:28:48,200
Speaker 2: Triplets are so unusually interesting to all of us, right,

1584
01:28:48,320 --> 01:28:52,000
Speaker 2: like who doesn't want to be a twin two boys

1585
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:55,360
Speaker 2: and a girl, Like it sounds perfect until your heart

1586
01:28:55,400 --> 01:28:57,640
Speaker 2: is ripped in pieces because one of the three of

1587
01:28:57,640 --> 01:29:01,800
Speaker 2: you is missing. So again, to the siblings, it's just

1588
01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:05,000
Speaker 2: a very unique piece of Ethan's story and for his

1589
01:29:05,160 --> 01:29:10,040
Speaker 2: sister and brother to continue on continue his legacy is major.

1590
01:29:10,120 --> 01:29:14,080
Speaker 2: And of course for the Gonzalvez family and their Carenodle

1591
01:29:14,120 --> 01:29:19,680
Speaker 2: family and Madison Mogan's family, we love you and we

1592
01:29:19,720 --> 01:29:23,479
Speaker 2: are not alone in that. We all aere crazy in

1593
01:29:23,520 --> 01:29:26,479
Speaker 2: love with you and send you so much love. Yeah.

1594
01:29:26,560 --> 01:29:27,639
Speaker 2: I thought about them all day.

1595
01:29:28,080 --> 01:29:32,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, my social media has been bombarded with videos of

1596
01:29:33,120 --> 01:29:36,800
Speaker 4: there's so many people making like memory videos of the

1597
01:29:36,840 --> 01:29:40,080
Speaker 4: four of them, and in every single one they're all

1598
01:29:40,160 --> 01:29:42,599
Speaker 4: dancing and smiling and you know.

1599
01:29:43,000 --> 01:29:48,320
Speaker 2: Just being it's their life worth living. It's funny, as

1600
01:29:48,360 --> 01:29:50,879
Speaker 2: you say, social media, and I guess the one takeaway

1601
01:29:50,880 --> 01:29:54,600
Speaker 2: from that case and having just obviously the podcast is

1602
01:29:54,680 --> 01:29:59,160
Speaker 2: now final episode out now please check it out, and

1603
01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:02,880
Speaker 2: some silver line in a very you know, dark, difficult tail.

1604
01:30:03,400 --> 01:30:07,400
Speaker 2: And then we made a documentary on Peacock. I really

1605
01:30:07,439 --> 01:30:11,679
Speaker 2: have suffered from being on social media that their case

1606
01:30:11,880 --> 01:30:16,040
Speaker 2: has pretty much made me absent on social media. Wow,

1607
01:30:19,560 --> 01:30:22,679
Speaker 2: I guess, I guess being in the trenches in it.

1608
01:30:22,760 --> 01:30:27,000
Speaker 2: My fear was that because they were so alive and

1609
01:30:27,160 --> 01:30:30,760
Speaker 2: happy and living their lives so fully and fun, and

1610
01:30:30,840 --> 01:30:34,400
Speaker 2: you would see the interior of their houses and it

1611
01:30:34,479 --> 01:30:38,720
Speaker 2: almost allowed a level of access to you know, you

1612
01:30:38,720 --> 01:30:41,960
Speaker 2: think just your buds, but it allowed a level of

1613
01:30:42,040 --> 01:30:46,400
Speaker 2: access that maybe was dangerous that somebody who wanted to

1614
01:30:46,400 --> 01:30:50,360
Speaker 2: do harm, or had envy or wanted something different for

1615
01:30:50,439 --> 01:30:54,120
Speaker 2: their ending of their lives had more access to them.

1616
01:30:54,160 --> 01:30:55,800
Speaker 2: I thought they knew them, maybe a little bit better

1617
01:30:55,840 --> 01:30:58,920
Speaker 2: than they actually did. That's a really good point. And

1618
01:30:59,040 --> 01:31:01,680
Speaker 2: it became again, this is not anything that they did

1619
01:31:01,720 --> 01:31:05,080
Speaker 2: wrong in any way or form, God knows, but I

1620
01:31:05,120 --> 01:31:08,160
Speaker 2: think I also probably did that. Who doesn't like we

1621
01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:09,640
Speaker 2: were like, oh this is a happy moment or a

1622
01:31:09,640 --> 01:31:12,200
Speaker 2: goofy moment or a silly moment. I don't think social

1623
01:31:12,200 --> 01:31:14,360
Speaker 2: media needs to be curated. I think it just needs

1624
01:31:14,400 --> 01:31:16,800
Speaker 2: to be honest in the moment. So sometimes it's like

1625
01:31:17,640 --> 01:31:20,120
Speaker 2: a weird day. But you're like taking a photo in

1626
01:31:20,200 --> 01:31:23,160
Speaker 2: your in your house and like there's no entrance in.

1627
01:31:23,200 --> 01:31:26,639
Speaker 2: There is the exit, and that's the window. There's stare there,

1628
01:31:26,880 --> 01:31:30,759
Speaker 2: don't yeah, step up and just working on the documentary especially,

1629
01:31:30,840 --> 01:31:33,880
Speaker 2: it's sort of it kind of got me scared. Yeah,

1630
01:31:34,520 --> 01:31:36,439
Speaker 2: And I was like, I love social media, by the way.

1631
01:31:36,479 --> 01:31:39,560
Speaker 2: I get a kick out of seeing everybody's photos and

1632
01:31:39,600 --> 01:31:43,280
Speaker 2: their babies and their weddings and their engagements and their graduations.

1633
01:31:43,320 --> 01:31:45,439
Speaker 2: Like I get a I get a high five out

1634
01:31:45,479 --> 01:31:48,439
Speaker 2: of it big time. But it did sort of take

1635
01:31:48,439 --> 01:31:50,160
Speaker 2: the fun out of it for me, Like now I'm

1636
01:31:50,200 --> 01:31:52,880
Speaker 2: sort of like, not that anyone's looking at my windows

1637
01:31:52,880 --> 01:31:55,639
Speaker 2: and doors. I'm not suggesting that, nor am I particularly

1638
01:31:55,720 --> 01:31:58,439
Speaker 2: that interesting in any way. Yes you are, but it

1639
01:31:58,520 --> 01:32:00,439
Speaker 2: just put me like a It just made me stop.

1640
01:32:00,600 --> 01:32:04,599
Speaker 2: It just made me like, I'm like, I never post

1641
01:32:04,640 --> 01:32:09,759
Speaker 2: anything anymore? Wow, how nyvy I should Maybe I should

1642
01:32:09,760 --> 01:32:11,680
Speaker 2: start doing it? No, no, or I should lighten up.

1643
01:32:11,840 --> 01:32:13,840
Speaker 2: I don't know one of the two. Maybe what should

1644
01:32:13,840 --> 01:32:15,800
Speaker 2: meet in the middle. How donut we only post with

1645
01:32:15,800 --> 01:32:20,479
Speaker 2: outdoors and windows. I'm constantly oversharing. But like license plates,

1646
01:32:20,520 --> 01:32:22,280
Speaker 2: I don't know. I just don't even know. I just

1647
01:32:22,280 --> 01:32:26,000
Speaker 2: started seeing the world differently, differently, yeah, and which is

1648
01:32:26,000 --> 01:32:27,679
Speaker 2: a bad thing. It's not the way you should live.

1649
01:32:28,560 --> 01:32:28,840
Speaker 5: Well.

1650
01:32:28,920 --> 01:32:31,320
Speaker 2: But there's a lot of bad people, but there's more good.

1651
01:32:31,400 --> 01:32:35,320
Speaker 2: There's way more good. I think the bad or isolated.

1652
01:32:35,640 --> 01:32:38,920
Speaker 2: And again, in the spirit of hopefulness, I think there

1653
01:32:39,000 --> 01:32:42,439
Speaker 2: is so much more good than these clowns that are

1654
01:32:42,520 --> 01:32:46,320
Speaker 2: bad and I don't know. Post your little hearts out.

1655
01:32:46,479 --> 01:32:49,800
Speaker 2: Go ahead, share those smiling faces. Let this Thursday night

1656
01:32:50,040 --> 01:32:53,519
Speaker 2: rip with happiness, and if you're having a great one,

1657
01:32:53,600 --> 01:32:56,439
Speaker 2: to share it with all of us. Please do. By

1658
01:32:56,439 --> 01:32:58,439
Speaker 2: the way, we're not here tomorrow, but we are back

1659
01:32:58,479 --> 01:33:02,200
Speaker 2: on Sunday. Joseph scot More game here for a crime lab.

1660
01:33:02,880 --> 01:33:06,839
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong, body moving. I love you to pieces and everybody,

1661
01:33:06,880 --> 01:33:08,200
Speaker 2: stay safe, have a great night.