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Speaker 1: Al Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to it could Happen here, a podcast where the

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Speaker 2: it is the authoritarian takeover of the city of Chicago.

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Speaker 2: I'm your host, Mia Wong, and today is an episode

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Speaker 2: that was significantly delayed by the fact that our guests

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Speaker 2: got shot in the face by riot munitions while attempting

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Speaker 2: to cover an anti ice protest and an ice facility,

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Speaker 2: and then her coworker was fucking grabbed by the FEDS

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Speaker 2: the next day, which she was also still out at

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Speaker 2: for reasons that are semi incomprehensible to me, because again,

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Speaker 2: she was just shot in the face. Since this is Raven,

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Speaker 2: a journalist with the independent outlet Unraveled, which really truly

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Speaker 2: is doing a lot of incredible work on the incredible

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Speaker 2: proliferation of ice raids around Chicago. Raven, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Oh boy, oh boy?

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Speaker 3: Is right? Thanks for that intro. Yeah, we're in the

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Speaker 3: shit right now. We're in it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess it would immediately start this with you

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Speaker 2: are mostly you're basically okay from my understanding, from getting

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Speaker 2: shot in the face of the right munition like a

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Speaker 2: week ago.

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Speaker 3: I am. I am basically okay. I have like some

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Speaker 3: swelling still in my jaw. I'm going to the doctor.

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Speaker 3: We'll see like if there's any soft tissue like lingering

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Speaker 3: effects later on down the line. But nothing's broken.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which, thank god, holy shit, thank god that I

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Speaker 2: can really fuck you up permanently.

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Speaker 3: Like yeah, I mean it's been several weeks now of

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Speaker 3: the fence just pummeling people with these stupid little pepper

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Speaker 3: ball rounds yep, and like the core of it is

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Speaker 3: like metal, you know, it's like this little bullet thing

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Speaker 3: with like the pepper powder on the outside. So if

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Speaker 3: you shoot someone in the face with those, I mean,

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Speaker 3: like we've seen horrific injuries these last few weeks, and

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Speaker 3: also like people getting concussions from like you know, sear

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Speaker 3: gas canisters exploding right by their heads and other things,

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Speaker 3: broken bones from these really violent arrests, and yeah, it's

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Speaker 3: just been awful. Not gonna lie. Yeah, I was shot at,

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Speaker 3: like literally, I was like taking a photo of a

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Speaker 3: fed like an oppressed gaggle. We were all hiding behind

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Speaker 3: this van while we're just like being shot at. And

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Speaker 3: this guy, I mean he stared right at me and

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Speaker 3: like right down the barrel of my lens, like he

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Speaker 3: knew what he was doing.

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Speaker 2: Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, another reporter. It was like a similar situation where

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Speaker 3: these guys like fucking ambushed them. Like it was just

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Speaker 3: two reporters like hiding behind a van, and these guys

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Speaker 3: came up along the side of the fence and just

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Speaker 3: started like shooting them in the face with these rounds.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So, and this has been at the protests at

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Speaker 2: the ICE facility in Broadview. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Broby is like just a tiny little suburb, like just

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Speaker 3: outside of Chicago. It's Stilling Cook County, majority black suburb,

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Speaker 3: actually black working class, the mayors of Black woman And

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Speaker 3: now this ICE facility has been there for a while. Obviously,

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Speaker 3: people were protesting there weekly for like over a decade,

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Speaker 3: but nothing like what we've seen these last few weeks.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Okay, let's go back in time a little bit,

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Speaker 2: because in between the last time we spoke to you

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Speaker 2: and now there has been so much unbelievably horrible stuff

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Speaker 2: in Chicago. I guess let's go back a couple of

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Speaker 2: weeks and talk about the guy they murdered.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so, shortly after this latest ice surge began, they

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Speaker 3: sailed a man at a traffic stop. Two ICE agents

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Speaker 3: who were seemingly operating completely alone, didn't seem to have

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Speaker 3: any backup with them. It was just these two guys

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Speaker 3: in this car who jumped down on the sky. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: it feels it feels like forever ago, but of course

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Speaker 3: it was only a few weeks ago. Yeah, and you know,

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Speaker 3: that's that's an example of just like a police killing

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Speaker 3: that we may never learn more about because you know,

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Speaker 3: it involves the FEDS, right, you know, there's no timeline

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Speaker 3: under which they have to release any information or like

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Speaker 3: tell us anything about their their own investigation into it. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so that is of course really horrifying and horrifying to

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Speaker 3: know there's kind of these these missing few seconds of

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Speaker 3: video right where we don't see the actual shot fired yep,

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Speaker 3: or shots excuse me. We can sort of piece together

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Speaker 3: what happened, but you know, this happened in a working

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Speaker 3: class Latino suburb, heavily Latino suburb, not not very far

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Speaker 3: down the road from the actual ice.

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Speaker 2: Facility, because you were say, part of what's really frustrating

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Speaker 2: about this is we can't tell you why they stopped this person, right,

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Speaker 2: because they won't tell us, right, We know very little

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Speaker 2: about this other than they stopped the guy. He tried

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Speaker 2: to drive away and they shot him. That's like that's

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Speaker 2: all we know effectively, right.

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Speaker 3: I mean they claim he had some traffic violations, which

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Speaker 3: is true, but I mean, like who doesn't.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, I don't know. If we're shooting people for

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Speaker 2: traffic violation, this country is going to have like ten

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Speaker 2: people in it by the end of it.

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Speaker 3: Like, yeah, he wasn't suspected of any like crime.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 3: I believe that it was just opportunistic, yeah, that they

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Speaker 3: were just looking for an easy target, and these guys

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Speaker 3: were acting like cowboys, I mean, like just doing this

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Speaker 3: jump out by themselves. And and also to be clear,

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Speaker 3: I mean like when they say he drove away from them,

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Speaker 3: I mean some of the video that we do have

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Speaker 3: it shows him slowly reversing backwards away from them. It's

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Speaker 3: not like he just drove over the agents.

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Speaker 2: No no, no no, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Which is was of course their initial narrative that he

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Speaker 3: like hit one of them with his car and all

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Speaker 3: this stuff that of course turned out to be false.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's also frustrating too because you know, in

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Speaker 2: the app well, I would say in the absence of

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Speaker 2: better information, but it's the media. They will just straight

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Speaker 2: up print you know, no matter just how unbelievably absurd

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Speaker 2: the lies are, they will just straight up print Department

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Speaker 2: of Homeland Security press releases as if they have anything

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Speaker 2: to do with reality whatsoever. Even as it becomes increasingly clear,

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Speaker 2: even more of an it's ever been, that you simply

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Speaker 2: cannot rely on police press reports to understand what happened

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Speaker 2: in the situation. People will just keep printing that. And

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Speaker 2: so that's the first that's the version of the story

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Speaker 2: that goes out first, which is what everyone sees. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and they don't see the video where it's very clearly

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Speaker 2: not what happened.

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Speaker 3: Yep. It is a maddening situation. So yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 3: like that happened. And then almost immediately and like concurrently,

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Speaker 3: of course, all of this other ice activity started ramping up. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and then around a week and a half ago, Bovino

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Speaker 3: showed up and Border Patrol showed up, And now it's

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Speaker 3: amped up even further because they're even worse than our

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Speaker 3: regular ice guys.

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Speaker 2: Bovino and the Border Patrol people, those are the people

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Speaker 2: who seem to have been pulled out of Los Angeles

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Speaker 2: and deployed the Chicago.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Bovino moved this sort of larger border patrol operation

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Speaker 3: here to Chicago. So there are border patrol units here

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Speaker 3: from you know, Arizona, from California, different places, and they've

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Speaker 3: been doing sort of a combination of like just strictly

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Speaker 3: cornyass propaganda ops, you know, like driving around on their

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Speaker 3: boats for photos, combined with like actual terrors, like a

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Speaker 3: few nights ago, hundreds of Feds rating an entire apartment

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Speaker 3: building of people in the middle of the night.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think we'll get to that rate in

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Speaker 2: a second, because it was unbelievable, sort of gruesome and horrible.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I wanted to talk to you just about

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Speaker 2: sort of what the general sort of ICE operations and

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Speaker 2: then the border patrol operations have looked like in the

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Speaker 2: city and what it's been like being in a place

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Speaker 2: where there's just guys in mass dragging people off the street.

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Speaker 3: It kind of feels like streaming underwater and no one

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Speaker 3: can hear you. Yeah, just sort of witnessing this every day.

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Speaker 3: And it is still highly dispersed, right like Chicago and

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Speaker 3: the metro area and the suburban counties where this is happening.

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Speaker 3: It's a huge, huge area. So, like we talked about

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Speaker 3: last time, it's a real challenge to focus people's attention

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Speaker 3: on because it can appear like the waters are calm

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Speaker 3: like where you live, you know, like they're doing any

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Speaker 3: of these very fast strike teams and this very dispersed way,

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Speaker 3: so by the time you even hear about it, they're

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Speaker 3: already gone. So many cars abandoned on the side of

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Speaker 3: the road. Was like windows smashed out Jesus Christ, like landscapers,

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Speaker 3: work bands and stuff. You know, like people are just

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Speaker 3: rapid responders are just getting to sites where someone's reported

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Speaker 3: something happening, and all they find is like a busted

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Speaker 3: out card and then they have to piece together like

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Speaker 3: potentially what happened. And additionally, the broad view so like

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Speaker 3: this ice facility where people are protesting regularly. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's not set up to be a permanent detention center.

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Speaker 3: It's just supposed to be like a temporary stopping point

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Speaker 3: because Illinois doesn't have overnight immigration detention. So additionally, there

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Speaker 3: are like so many extra people crammed into this facility

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Speaker 3: that wasn't designed to hold them. Yeah, and of course

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Speaker 3: the conditions are horrible, you know, like they don't have privacy,

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Speaker 3: they don't have enough bath rooms, they're not getting fed,

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Speaker 3: they're not getting medication, you know, like after the kidnappings,

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Speaker 3: after the disappearances, then there's this pipeline of detention horrors

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Speaker 3: that people are enduring. So this is this is why

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Speaker 3: people are protesting, you know. I mean, this is why

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Speaker 3: people are out there yelling at the fence. Because the

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Speaker 3: people who are who are brave enough to go out

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Speaker 3: there and yell at the fence or to take the

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Speaker 3: pepper balls or what have you, they they are in agony.

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Speaker 3: They're aware of what's happening. They're witnessing all of this

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Speaker 3: and feeling like this needs to stop. And there are

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Speaker 3: a lot of people hiding in their homes. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 3: like like it it's true, Like I don't always want

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Speaker 3: to make like Holocaust comparisons because I feel like that

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Speaker 3: that's what we always go to. But I mean, like

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Speaker 3: that's the most apt comparison that becomes to most people's mind.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: They think of like and frankiding in your attic, like

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Speaker 3: those kinds of things, and it's like that is literally

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Speaker 3: where we are at right now. People are literally in

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Speaker 3: hiding because they are worried that if they go to

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Speaker 3: Sam's Club, they will be cannapped by secret police.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the behavior that they've been exhibiting against

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Speaker 2: the protesters too, has been very, very similar to what

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Speaker 2: they've been doing to the people that they're grabbing off

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Speaker 2: the street. I want to talk to you a bit

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Speaker 2: about like what it's been like dealing with the way

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Speaker 2: that the Feds have been attacking the protesters constantly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, these guys are fucking monsters. Yeah, I'm trying

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Speaker 3: to thread this needle for people of like, all policing

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Speaker 3: is bad, right, Like all policing is violent, All cops

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Speaker 3: are violent, But there is something different happening here as

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Speaker 3: a result of the fact that there is literally zero accountability.

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Speaker 3: And I'm not suggesting that like police accountability isn't a sham,

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Speaker 3: because in general it kind of is. But I think, like,

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Speaker 3: you know, when you take away every single guardrail, these

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Speaker 3: guys don't have to identify themselves and they don't have

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Speaker 3: to answer to anyone. Yeah, their bosses aren't going to

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Speaker 3: write them up. You know. It's it's kind of like

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Speaker 3: with any other job, right, you know, take a city

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Speaker 3: cop here in Chicago. Of course, it's rare that any

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Speaker 3: of them ever actually get fired for the horrible shit

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Speaker 3: they do. But you know there's this sort of base

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Speaker 3: level of knowing, like well, I got to show up

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Speaker 3: to work every day with my name on my vest,

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Speaker 3: and I also have like all these other bosses and

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Speaker 3: all these other people who are gonna, like, you know,

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Speaker 3: maybe make my day harder if I like really fuck

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Speaker 3: something up, right, And so when we're talking about the FEDS,

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Speaker 3: there's just nothing. There's just nothing there. They can literally

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Speaker 3: do whatever they want on top of like just not

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Speaker 3: having the same level of like quote law enforcement training.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we've been watching these guys for weeks like

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Speaker 3: fucking hurt themselves with their papper ball guns like they live.

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Speaker 3: I really are like dropping shit as they're on the process,

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Speaker 3: like like watching people have made like call of duty comparisons,

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Speaker 3: like prowdboy comparisons, and like it is kind of like that.

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Speaker 3: It's like if you just gave a bunch of chuds,

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Speaker 3: a bunch of like military and police care and we're like,

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Speaker 3: all right, go out and like pretend to be a cop.

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Speaker 3: And that's like literally what it feels like. And so

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Speaker 3: I'm trying to spread this deal for people of like yeah,

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Speaker 3: all cops suck, but like what's going on with this

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Speaker 3: is like so much worse. Like they're just out there

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Speaker 3: like shooting at people randomly, like and you know, for

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Speaker 3: no reason. Like it is just one of the craziest

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Speaker 3: things I've ever seen in my life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I also I want to put this into perspectives,

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Speaker 2: like you have also covered a lot of protests in

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Speaker 2: the city.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I've covered a lot of cop violence. I've been

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Speaker 3: to a lot of protests, I mean hundreds and hundreds

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Speaker 3: and hundreds at this point, right, Yeah, And there's just

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Speaker 3: certain like things that you're used to seeing and certain

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Speaker 3: there's a certain predictability sometimes to like a lot of

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Speaker 3: them movement. And what's interesting too, is like in some

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Speaker 3: ways they are actually more militarized, just in terms of

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Speaker 3: like their riot formations and like how tightly coordinated their

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Speaker 3: units are because they practice and they train for like

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Speaker 3: crowd control stuff all the time. And then you have

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Speaker 3: these just like ice chuds running around with like way

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Speaker 3: more gear and they look way scarier, but they're like

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Speaker 3: way less organized and way more chaotic, and there's not

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Speaker 3: enough of them, right, so like they're not even like

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Speaker 3: doing a good job of like backing each other up,

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Speaker 3: you know, like in the field, like I'm just watching

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Speaker 3: them like leave their own backs unwatched and you know,

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Speaker 3: doing things that are like dangerous for them, Like they

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Speaker 3: want to act like a military unit, but they're like

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Speaker 3: definitely not.

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Speaker 2: Yea.

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Speaker 3: It's I mean, people have made the comparison of like

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Speaker 3: crowd boys, which I think I don't know, it kind

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Speaker 3: of works in a sense like street fighters because what

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Speaker 3: they're acting like, you know, yeah, it's just it's just

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Speaker 3: been super violent, super awful. Chicago does not have really

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Speaker 3: any experience with like these just FEDS in general, like

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Speaker 3: to this level. I know that out in Portland for

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Speaker 3: years now, like there have been various protests outside of

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Speaker 3: the ICE or something like, there's just there's been like

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Speaker 3: a lot more a lot more FED presence out in Portland, Seattle. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: throughout the past few years of protests, I've seen you know,

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Speaker 3: people interact with them, and we just we've had nothing

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Speaker 3: like that here. So this is also like very unprecedented

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Speaker 3: like for this region.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because usually CPD is like brutal enough that they

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Speaker 2: don't you don't end up with like yeah, federal deployments

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Speaker 2: and now it's like oh boy. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well and also keep in mind this is all happening

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Speaker 3: in broad View, so like they don't even have I

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Speaker 3: mean there's been there's been tensions and arguments and discussions

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Speaker 3: around what's happening with their local police department and just

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Speaker 3: sort of the interface here too, because it's like this

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Speaker 3: tiny little police department is now having to sort of

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Speaker 3: manage what's going on with this ICE facility, and they're

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Speaker 3: not directly like assisting ICE with croud control, but they

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Speaker 3: are like basically setting up a perimeter around the area, right,

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Speaker 3: and so then like there guys are getting to your

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Speaker 3: gas and like complaining about it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, was it brought to you the police chief, who

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Speaker 5: like finally was like, oh holy shit, I've never been

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Speaker 5: treated this racistly by a police officer before. I was like,

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Speaker 5: oh my fucking god, Like yeah, you're just now realizing

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Speaker 5: that you're the baddie, Like when it finally like happens

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Speaker 5: to you, like.

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Speaker 2: Come on, oh yeah.

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Speaker 3: He he went on on like ABC or whatever and

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Speaker 3: was just did hit this whole interview about like, well,

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Speaker 3: ICE is disrespecting me as the police chief, and it's

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Speaker 3: just like like what did you expect?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, man, you signed up for the racist organization and

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Speaker 6: you were like, ah, yeah, I'm in charge of my

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Speaker 6: local by local chapter of the Racist Association, so it'll

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Speaker 6: never happen to be like, oh shit, you mean there's

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Speaker 6: other people who are higher up in.

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Speaker 2: The racism police, Like.

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Speaker 3: God, yeah. So that's been that's just been like a

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Speaker 3: weird side story to this of kind of like the

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Speaker 3: mayor and the police chief and the fire chief are

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Speaker 3: not thrilled about what's going on, and they're like looking

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Speaker 3: into the legality quote of the fence that isis put

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Speaker 3: up just like across this street that goes past their facility,

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Speaker 3: which is in this kind of like tucked away sort

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Speaker 3: of industrial park thing. But there are homes like right

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Speaker 3: on the other side, and you know, they've just blocked

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Speaker 3: off this entire street and there's like a business on

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Speaker 3: the other side. You know, it's like obviously a huge

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Speaker 3: fire hazard to just like block a whole road like that.

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Speaker 3: They didn't ask permission to like put this up, not

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Speaker 3: to mention a hazard for the people in the detention center,

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Speaker 3: which is now boarded up and has this huge fence

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Speaker 3: across the street. It's like, oh my god, if there's

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Speaker 3: a fire or like an emergency and they needed to

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Speaker 3: evacuate the people inside. Yeah, I mean, like obviously people

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Speaker 3: would die.

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Speaker 2: It's this incredible mix of both blatant disregard for the

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Speaker 2: safety of anyone involved and also just wanting to hurt people.

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Speaker 2: And it's it's this incredible fusion of they are both

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Speaker 2: incompetent and malicious, which is yeah.

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Speaker 3: Right, which is not a great combination.

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Speaker 2: No, let's talk about this raid in South Shore. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, we don't have a we don't have

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Speaker 3: a ton of details on the true extent of this

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Speaker 3: because it happened at one in the morning. So two

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Speaker 3: nights ago, hundreds and hundreds of federal agents showed up

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Speaker 3: to an apartment building in the South Shore neighborhood, which

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Speaker 3: is a predominantly black neighborhood where a number of newly

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Speaker 3: arrived migrants settled because there's cheap housing there. Yeah, so

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Speaker 3: when Governor Abbott started busting people here a few years ago,

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Speaker 3: that is one place where you know, a number of

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Speaker 3: people found housing. And unfortunately also too, there's like a

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Speaker 3: lot of slum lords down that way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, cheap housing means shit in Chicago. Yeah, of course, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I uee tents organizing that shity. I have seen shit that,

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Speaker 2: Like I have seen people sewage like running out of

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Speaker 2: their bathtubs. I have seen I have seen places with

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Speaker 2: no electric like literally no electricity, no lights, no running water,

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Speaker 2: like actually literally like frozen solid in the winter and

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Speaker 2: no one can contact the landlord. And those were in

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Speaker 2: parts of the city that were like not even that

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Speaker 2: badly off. The apartment that I had there almost fucking

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Speaker 2: killed me from dust inhalation, and like that's like that's

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Speaker 2: like a like a normal cheap apartment. It gets so

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Speaker 2: much fucking worse. The pictures from like in side of

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Speaker 2: the apartment, not even just the parts were like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: the doors are blown off. It's like these apartments fucking

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Speaker 2: sucked because they're run by they're run by fucking slanlords.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, like the housing situation in Chicago, so much

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Speaker 2: of it is so shit is never going to get

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Speaker 2: repaired because these landlords don't give a shit because they

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Speaker 2: can just keep a distracting money from it because you know,

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Speaker 2: one can go anywhere else.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, yeah, I mean these people were living in

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Speaker 3: really bad conditions. I've heard that like a lot of

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Speaker 3: people were like scrippled, quadrupled up in units. You know,

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Speaker 3: I don't. I don't know what it looked like before

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Speaker 3: it was rated. Yeah, but it's like virtually empty now.

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Speaker 3: I mean like there there were some and to be clear,

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Speaker 3: like what happened to back up a little bit, you know,

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Speaker 3: they hundreds and hundreds of FEDS showed up with this

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Speaker 3: building in the middle of the night and reportedly detained

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Speaker 3: everyone in the building. So there were like, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 3: people in the building who aren't immigrants, like black people

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Speaker 3: who live in the neighborhood. You know. There was one

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Speaker 3: woman being interviewed on broadcast who's like an older black woman,

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Speaker 3: you know, who was just like, yeah, I was like

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Speaker 3: detained by the FBI, you know, like in the middle

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Speaker 3: of the night, like asking me if I'm a citizen.

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Speaker 3: You know, Like, it's just absolutely fucking wild that this happened.

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Speaker 3: Also as of today, granted this might change by the

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Speaker 3: time your podcast is.

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Speaker 2: Out, importantly, So we're recording this the night of Wednesday,

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Speaker 2: October first. Who fucking knows what we'll have learned about

384
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Speaker 2: this or what will happen in between this and when

385
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Speaker 2: it comes out probably Monday, probably there will be new horrors.

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Speaker 2: If you've heard about like the horrors in Chicago, and

387
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Speaker 2: it's not in this episode. It's probably because it happened

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Speaker 2: after we recorded. Things are happening at a terrible rate.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So as of today, Wednesday, October first, I could

390
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 3: not find a story on the sun Times or the

391
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 3: Tribune website about this raid. And I think, yeah, of course,

392
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Speaker 3: a lot of people want to indict mainstream media for

393
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Speaker 3: not covering things, which like is fair sometimes. Don't get

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Speaker 3: me wrong, They've been trying. Things are happening so fast now,

395
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Speaker 3: and there are so many horrible things happening every day

396
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Speaker 3: that like no news room can keep up.

397
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Speaker 2: Alert red alert. They did finally get a story up

398
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Speaker 2: five minutes ago, so mid I checked the book. They

399
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Speaker 2: got one up. They got one up.

400
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Speaker 3: Is the tribute the.

401
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Speaker 2: Suntimes sometimes sometimes.

402
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Speaker 3: Okay, okay, well it only took them two days. Okay, sure,

403
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 3: I haven't read it yet. Maybe maybe it's a good story.

404
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:32,159
Speaker 3: I don't know, maybe they went really in depth.

405
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Speaker 2: It's not terrible. Yeah, it doesn't actually seem I mean,

406
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Speaker 2: it's pretty long. I mean I'm going I'm gonna read

407
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Speaker 2: one quote from it to get people and understand. This is,

408
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Speaker 2: like I actually think is pretty representative of like the

409
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Speaker 2: Independent media covers that I've read of it aren't federal

410
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Speaker 2: agents and military fatigues busted down their doors overnight, pulling men, women,

411
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Speaker 2: and children from their apartment some naked residents. Witnesses said,

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Speaker 2: that is the thing I've seen in everything report about this,

413
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Speaker 2: is that a bunch of people just literally didn't have

414
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Speaker 2: clothes on because they were drag out of their bed.

415
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Speaker 2: They were like fucking naked children, like naked, like people

416
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Speaker 2: holding naked babies being pulled out of their fucking apartments

417
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Speaker 2: Like Jesus fucking Christ God.

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Speaker 3: And this was like such a huge number of beds

419
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Speaker 3: that like the buses were rerouted around the scene. I mean,

420
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Speaker 3: like there's questions. There's questions right now over like the

421
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Speaker 3: level of CPD involvement in like protecting the scene. And

422
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Speaker 3: this was not just ice. There were a ton of

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Speaker 3: FBI and a ton of ATF.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which you know, it's like, okay, what what

425
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Speaker 2: what is the FBI doing right now? They are fucking

426
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Speaker 2: dragging naked children out of their fucking homes, like out

427
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Speaker 2: of their fucking apartment at one in the fucking morning.

428
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Speaker 3: Yeah, and they were they were in in fucking moving

429
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Speaker 3: vans like Patriot front, Like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, fucking horrible. I mean, like I got I over

431
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Speaker 2: seeing a statement where it was like they were denying

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Speaker 2: that they had loaded any immigrants into moving vans.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, which like maybe that's I don't know, maybe only

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Speaker 3: the FBI. Yeah, beautiful malls.

435
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 2: Like I don't know. Yeah, I'm also just like haunted

436
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,119
Speaker 2: by like what other reports that I saw where they

437
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 2: were talking about like they separated all of the black

438
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 2: people into like one van and all of the non

439
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 2: black people to another one, And it was just like,

440
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 2: oh God, like these people. There's another thing. I think

441
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 2: this is in the story that you that you wrote

442
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 2: about this or they literally like a fed literally said

443
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 2: fuck them kids.

444
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I don't I deuinitely didn't write that,

445
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 3: but I believe that someone said it.

446
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 2: Yeah it was Oh my god.

447
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,199
Speaker 3: I believe it. I'm I'm I mean, I'm glad to

448
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,200
Speaker 3: hear that. Five minutes ago the Sun Times covered it.

449
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, they finally got around to it. Yeah,

450
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 2: good for them.

451
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,719
Speaker 3: To be clear, like they probably interviewed a lot more

452
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 3: people than we had capacity to. You know, it's been

453
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 3: obviously a huge challenge to even cover all this stuff,

454
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 3: like as this tiny random weirdo ass news outlet, like yeah,

455
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 3: and we're still figuring out as we go, but yeah,

456
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 3: I mean this this I am still it has done

457
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,400
Speaker 3: two days and I am like still trying to wrap

458
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 3: my hat around this raid, this specific raid, because it's just, yeah,

459
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 3: so horrific that this happened. And of course, like the timing,

460
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,199
Speaker 3: like they knew what they were doing by timing it

461
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 3: in the middle of the night. Of course.

462
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna fucking ref the Times article because I've

463
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 2: just been reading it while you've been doing it, Like Watson,

464
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 2: this is someny. Lists across the street said she saw

465
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 2: agents dragging residents, including kids, out of the building without

466
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 2: any clothes and into HU haul vans. Kids were separated

467
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 2: from their mothers. It was heartbreaking to watch, said Watson,

468
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 2: even if you're not a mother, seeing kids come out

469
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 2: buck naked and taking from their mothers. It was horrible.

470
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 2: They're literally ripping kids from their fucking mothers at one

471
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 2: in the morning and throwing it apparently allegedly throwing them

472
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 2: at U haul vans.

473
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, I mean, this is like psycho shit. The

474
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 3: last three weeks, four weeks has just spent a gradual

475
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 3: progression of like the most evil shit you've ever seen

476
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 3: in your life. I don't even know what to say

477
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 3: about it anymore, honestly, because it feels like it feels

478
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 3: like our only way of grappling with things like this

479
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 3: is by making comparisons to other things. And I don't

480
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,679
Speaker 3: know that that is really helping anybody right now. But

481
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's it's ethnic cleansing, it's genocide. It's

482
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,919
Speaker 3: like literally I was just saying earlier today when like

483
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 3: when you drill down to it, like they're disappearing like

484
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 3: vast majority Latino men are there are some women. It's

485
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 3: not only men, but like they are definitely targeting like

486
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 3: mostly Latita men, and like these are people who are

487
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 3: migrating here from Central America who are like if you

488
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 3: look at their lineage, mostly like indigenous to this fucking

489
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 3: continent on like white people. You know, it's just an

490
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 3: extension of like the American project, like of the white

491
00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 3: nationalist like extermination of the people indigenous to the AMAS.

492
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 3: Like that is literally what's happening like right now. So yeah,

493
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 3: it does not feel like I don't know, like like

494
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,959
Speaker 3: enough people get it to the level that they should.

495
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and that's I think. Like one other thing

496
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 2: I wanted to talk to you about was like the

497
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 2: way the press bubble has worked around this, where again,

498
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 2: the fact that federal agents dragged naked children from their

499
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 2: homes at one in the morning in the third largest

500
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 2: city in the United States, that is a story that

501
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:42,159
Speaker 2: is hitting the mainstream Chicago press today two days later,

502
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,919
Speaker 2: and I think the only national coverage of it that

503
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 2: I've seen are from people who are basically like repeating

504
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 2: the scoop that was given to this, like unhinged UFO outlet.

505
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 2: Who were the people that got the exclusive Oh yeah,

506
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 2: right into this yet Oh oh god, no idea what

507
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 2: hold on? Hold on? Let me let me god fuck Okay,

508
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 2: I'm very excited to tell you about this is so unhitched.

509
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,640
Speaker 3: I saw like the propaganda video that they made about it.

510
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the group that got like the exclusive like

511
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 2: press release thing from the Feds, which is basically being

512
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 2: like reprinted by Newsweek, who are just a joke at

513
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 2: this point, Like their description of it is like a

514
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 2: federal agent's repelled from black cop helicopters and the rooftop

515
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 2: Chicago residential buildings targeting trend to Agua gang members, according

516
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 2: to news Nation, and I was like, what the fuck

517
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 2: is news Nation? Like, I've I have a pretty good

518
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 2: grasp on like all of the weird right wing news outlets,

519
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 2: I'd never heard of this one. I looked them up

520
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 2: at the first like, big thing that I saw about

521
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 2: them was that, well, ay, they are the people. They're

522
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 2: the person that Chris Cuomo went to after he was

523
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 2: like publicly disgraced as a journalist. And the second thing

524
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 2: I saw about them was that their big thing is

525
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 2: that they like quote unquote take UFOs seriously, and these

526
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 2: are the people who were given like the exclusive scoop

527
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 2: on this is like the UFO outlet.

528
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,959
Speaker 3: That is so funny. That is when I watched the

529
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 3: propaganda video that we were watching about it, Yeah it

530
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 3: was News Nation. I just thought it was like, I

531
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 3: don't know, some right wing outlet like any other.

532
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 5: That's why I thought too that looked at it, and

533
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 5: like the Wikipedia article was like just when there's a

534
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 5: section titled UFOs, I was like, what the fuck?

535
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 3: Great? Great? I didn't know about the UFO connection. I

536
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 3: mean I saw them. I saw their reporters like actually

537
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 3: at the protests, like interviewing like the one guy in

538
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 3: a maga hat who showed up to counter protests, Like,

539
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 3: of course that's who they interview.

540
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, of course.

541
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 3: So that's good to know that they are UFO weirdos.

542
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 2: Rehem approved of approved media outlet, the UFO guys.

543
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 3: Oh, I mean, the the the official like like DHS

544
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 3: line on this entire thing is that trend Aragua was this,

545
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 3: Like this entire apartment building was a trend dea Arragua.

546
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 2: I don't just like no, it wasn't like like.

547
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 3: It's literally just the same fucking thing that Israel does

548
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 3: about hamas right when they're like, oh, yeah, this hospital

549
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 3: that we're.

550
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 2: Bombing, Yeah, it's a.

551
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 3: There's hamasoles underneath. I mean, it's like the exact same shit.

552
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. The connection you made earlier to this functioning as

553
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: an extension of like the genocide that founded this country.

554
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 2: I think it might have been Hannah or want okay,

555
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 2: I want to attribute this to her at Hannah w Rent,

556
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 2: which is like it's kind of a mess because of her.

557
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 2: Don't do not ever look up Hannah rent stuff on segregation,

558
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 2: or actually maybe do if you want to see the

559
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 2: worst argument you've ever seen in your life, where like

560
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 2: famed intellectual Hannah or Rent says that segregation is like

561
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 2: a defining quality of like a free society.

562
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 3: Oh no, I'm not like a super expert on Hannah Rent,

563
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 3: but I definitely did not know that.

564
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 2: So oh yeah, no that people. People don't.

565
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 5: I'll say this, Waite, people do not be bringing that

566
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 5: shit up. Everyone else is like, oh.

567
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 2: God, holy shit. You were like a major subagregation, like

568
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 2: intellectual who got brought out to be like segregation is

569
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 2: actually good, nose is free association. But I think it

570
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 2: might have been her, It might have been someone else.

571
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 2: I've been trying to look for who had this idea,

572
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 2: and I haven't been able to find who it was.

573
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 2: And I vaguely remember being a Rent, But fuck her.

574
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 2: This is a little bit A very long while. Up

575
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 2: was saying, like, there's an idea that I ran into

576
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 2: back when I was in my sort of like days

577
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 2: in the academy about the way that societies reflect their

578
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 2: founding violence. And you know, the sort of like the

579
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,719
Speaker 2: founding violence of the United States is the genocide vidicious

580
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 2: people and slavery, and you look at what they're doing

581
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 2: right now, You're just watching sort of in miniature that

582
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 2: violence just being replicated over and over again, where like

583
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 2: you're tearing fucking mothers from their children in the dead

584
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 2: of night, and it's the same people, right, Like this

585
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 2: is an apartment building where almost everyone is black, and

586
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 2: the people who aren't black are immigrants, right and obviously

587
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 2: like some of them are both, but like you know,

588
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 2: but like you're just like watching the founding violence of

589
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,959
Speaker 2: this country just being played out over and over and

590
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 2: over again every night. And it's this thing where like

591
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 2: I don't think on a fundamental level that this thing

592
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 2: that we've built, this sort of like this conception of

593
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 2: what democracy is, like this conception of what the state is,

594
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 2: this conception of like what this country is is going

595
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 2: to survive this moment. Either it's going to change completely

596
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 2: or the part of it that was nominally a democracy

597
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 2: is going to be consumed by the part of it

598
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 2: that's just doing this genocide over and over again. I

599
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 2: don't know. I quote this song a Lot Song of Choice,

600
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 2: Peggy Seeger. That's about the rise of fascism that I

601
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 2: think about a lot that has like one of one

602
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 2: of the lines is today the soldiers took away one,

603
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 2: Tomorrow they may take away two one April they took

604
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 2: away Greece, but surely they will never take you. And yeah,

605
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 2: they're just fucking taking people away in the night, right now,

606
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 2: Like that's that's the stage of this where we're at.

607
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 2: And either something fundamentally changes or right, you know, like

608
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 2: that the end of that song is either like they

609
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 2: take you or at the end they don't take you

610
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 2: because they know you didn't care, right.

611
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 3: And I mean, look, I've been I've been covering civil

612
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 3: conflict and violence, you know, like more or less for

613
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 3: the last five years. Right, I was at January sixth,

614
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 3: like literally in the middle of the mob. I've seen

615
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 3: a lot of shit.

616
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 2: Reporting on it.

617
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 5: Make this very clear, reporting on it.

618
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 3: Clear why I was there. I was not part although

619
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 3: my FASCI stalkers might insist I was part of like

620
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 3: an antipa conspiracy to right, But but you know, I've

621
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 3: seen a lot of shit the last five years, obviously,

622
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 3: and I think this particular moment feels like, yeah, like

623
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 3: we're kind of you know, like we're a marble at

624
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 3: the top of like a spiral, and it's like either

625
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 3: we're going to keep rolling down or or somebody like

626
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 3: jams it or takes the marble off, you know, like

627
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 3: there's just this is a this is a spiral, Like

628
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 3: there are so many factors that are going to contribute

629
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 3: to this getting worse if we do not significantly alter course.

630
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 3: And I think, you know, this feeling that we have

631
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 3: locally of like we're screaming underwater and nobody can hear us.

632
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 3: I'm sure is share a sentiment that is shared in LA,

633
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 3: that is shared in DC, that is Sheridan. Yeah, all

634
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 3: of these cities all over where ICE is doing similar shit.

635
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,359
Speaker 3: It can make us really angry. I mean, I've been

636
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 3: really angry at times in the last month about the

637
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:17,320
Speaker 3: lack of like attention whatever. But then I think about

638
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 3: how everyone is overwhelmed because there's so much horrible shit

639
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 3: happening every day on so many places, Like we just

640
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 3: can't keep up anymore, Like none of us can keep up.

641
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I mean, like I'm in Portland right now,

642
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 2: and like it's my job to keep track of this,

643
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 2: and I can't tell you at this exact second whether

644
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 2: a federal diploma to Portland is honor off. I think

645
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,959
Speaker 2: it's currently off. But also by the time you're listening

646
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 2: to this, who the fuck knows? And like yeah, like right,

647
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,879
Speaker 2: I don't know. There's an Android line about how it's

648
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 2: easier to hide a thousand atrocities and it is to

649
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 2: hide one because you can just keep ramping the tempo

650
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 2: up exactly.

651
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 3: I don't know. I'm not a historian. I'm just a journalist,

652
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 3: so maybe you would know better than me. But I

653
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 3: feel like we are literally already in a civil war.

654
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 3: We just don't know it yet, or like we're waiting

655
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,839
Speaker 3: for like some specific thing to like prove it, you know,

656
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,760
Speaker 3: like I don't, I don't know. I think generally nobody

657
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 3: knows until it's like already, you're already in it. To me,

658
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 3: it feels like we're in it yea. But I also

659
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 3: wonder if that's just the cognitive effect of like us

660
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 3: being here literally in it because so much is going on,

661
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 3: and then thinking like, well, if the ice surge subsides

662
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 3: two months from now, is it going to still feel

663
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 3: this way? I don't know. I mean, to me, it

664
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 3: feels like we've got several more years of the Trump

665
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 3: regime at least if we look at this in the

666
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 3: sense of like, well, they're escalating, and then also this

667
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,879
Speaker 3: is going to keep going for over more years. Yeah,

668
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 3: that's a terrifying concept. Yeah, where do we go from

669
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 3: here if it's just gonna like get even worse?

670
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I don't know. I think I've been there

671
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 2: a lot recently.

672
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 3: I don't know.

673
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 2: It's the thing I've been telling listeners of this show

674
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 2: is that, like the upside of all of this is

675
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 2: that everyone hates them. Yeah, oh yeah, Like their proof

676
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 2: of ratings are so bad. Everyone fucking hates them, and

677
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 2: all of this stuff is hideously unpopular. And the giant

678
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 2: economic collapse that is very obviously going to happen when

679
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 2: the giant AI bubble that is like that is like

680
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 2: a third of the US's GDP pops what it inevitably

681
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 2: does because it doesn't make any money. They're doing all

682
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 2: of this in a situation where the economy still appears

683
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 2: to be functioning, and when that shit implodes on them,

684
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 2: shit is going to be even worse for them than

685
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 2: it is now. But also, like, on the other hand,

686
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 2: unless people do things about it, then it doesn't really

687
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 2: matter how popular or not they are as long as

688
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 2: no one is willing to stop them. And I guess

689
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 2: that's like the last thing I kind of want to

690
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,959
Speaker 2: close on is about like, can you talk a little

691
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 2: bit about like what you've seen organizing wise that you

692
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 2: can talk about that have been effective.

693
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 3: Well, I think people here are still figuring it out

694
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 3: these protests outside of the ice facility. You know, there

695
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,399
Speaker 3: has been a lot of autonomous organizing. Chicago does not

696
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:35,399
Speaker 3: have the same entrenched autonomous organizing culture that you see

697
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 3: in like Portland or Seattle for like a ton of reasons, yeah,

698
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 3: which are like beyond the scope of this episode in

699
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,760
Speaker 3: one series of the history the history of organizing in Chicago,

700
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 3: and like how we're in this specific moment. You know,

701
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 3: it's important to remember, like this is a city where

702
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 3: like the FBI murdered Fred Hampton, Right, it is bad.

703
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of tension between organizing factions about

704
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 3: how they want things done, and a lot of it

705
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 3: is fear driven for a good reason, because people are terrified,

706
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 3: and yeah, they're still figuring stuff out. I mean, I

707
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 3: think for lack of a better firm. Last Saturday, people

708
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 3: got their shit rocked by border patrol. You know, they

709
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 3: were so violent, they were so aggressive, they were just

710
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 3: so out of hand, just like immediately too, I mean

711
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 3: it was just like zero to sixty instantly, like there

712
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 3: was just a Saturday we saw them just immediately tear

713
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 3: gas and shoot at people over nothing, like nobody was

714
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 3: doing anything and they just assaulted the crowd with like

715
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 3: the most tear gas I've ever seen in my life.

716
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 3: So I think folks were definitely underprepared for that. But

717
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 3: that doesn't mean that it's like insurmountable to resist something

718
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 3: like that. I think there are questions surrounding the best

719
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 3: way to protest this specific building because of the location,

720
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 3: and it's tough because it's not in Chicago. It's hard

721
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:02,760
Speaker 3: to get to for some people.

722
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 2: Yep, yep.

723
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 3: But I don't want to I don't want to write

724
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:07,879
Speaker 3: anybody off. I mean, I think people are just still

725
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 3: figuring things out, like it's it's ice is adapting, border

726
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 3: patrols adapting, and so then organizers also have to adapt,

727
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 3: like it's like this tennis match, right yeah, yeah, And

728
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 3: so you know, we are also very much here. Our

729
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 3: activists are not used to like a huge and our

730
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 3: press also by extension, are not used to like a

731
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:29,800
Speaker 3: huge amount of chemical weapons.

732
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 2: Chicargo doesn't use tear gas like historically, like they just

733
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 2: beat people right or like shooting with right munitions, like

734
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 2: they don't tear gas, and I think I was literally

735
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 2: always told, like growing up in the city as an activist,

736
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 2: was like, if they start using tear gas, they're once

737
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 2: its way from shooting you, right, And they finally did

738
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 2: it in twenty twenty, which is the first time I

739
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 2: anyone had seen it in like decades, right, And the

740
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 2: fact that like they're just doing it all the time now,

741
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 2: like Jesus Christ.

742
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 3: Well, the Feds, I mean we saw this in la

743
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 3: like at the beginning of this summer, where like Border

744
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:05,760
Speaker 3: pat Role specifically just has this enormous amount of chemical

745
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 3: weapons that they like I don't know, maybe maybe they're

746
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,839
Speaker 3: going to expire soon and they have to use them all.

747
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 3: Like like I don't know, I don't know what the

748
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 3: rationale there is other than just being evil. Yeah, but

749
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 3: it's like literally their first voice of like they're just

750
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,880
Speaker 3: I mean, they're fucking enjoying it. They're fucking enjoying it.

751
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 3: They're enjoying yeah, shooting at people to your gassing them

752
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 3: playing g.

753
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 2: I Joe Like yeah, I mean, I will say it

754
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 2: does also raise the question, like how much of this

755
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 2: stuff do they actually have, because like twenty twenty they

756
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 2: went through decades of stockpiles, right, right, And like this

757
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:40,399
Speaker 2: is the thing that, like, I don't know, someone who

758
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 2: has a lot of time and as an investigative journalist

759
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 2: should try to go track down how much of the

760
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 2: countries tear gas supplies they've been able to replenish, because

761
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 2: they used a lot of it on us in twenty twenty.

762
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 2: And like, I mean, this is I don't know if

763
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 2: it is famous. I guess bicycles. It's kind of a

764
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 2: famous story that one of the one of the South

765
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 2: Korean military dictatorships was taken down by a student like

766
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 2: protest movement that calculated exactly how much tear gas the

767
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 2: police had and did this thing where they would do

768
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 2: these marches where they would a whole bunch of people

769
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 2: would show up and the police start characterizing them, and

770
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 2: they would just slowly keep her treating and keep her

771
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 2: treating until they ran the state out of tear gas.

772
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,479
Speaker 3: I mean, I know, I hope to see that level

773
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 3: of strategy in America.

774
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, law, Like, you know, like nothing, nothing, nothing is

775
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 2: impossible with the power of really really pissed off students.

776
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know, I mean, I don't know what

777
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:49,359
Speaker 3: the I'm not familiar with the manufacturing process for these

778
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 3: kind of like how long does it take the like

779
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 3: replenish and where do they source it?

780
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 2: Yeap, this is this is one hundred percent a Hey,

781
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 2: I know a bunch of journalists listened to this podcast.

782
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 2: If what if you wants to go do this, you

783
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,720
Speaker 2: would be doing a great service to everyone in this country.

784
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 3: Like, right, I'm like assuming that it's not made in

785
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:13,919
Speaker 3: the United States and they're like importing these things a hu.

786
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 2: Huge amount of American American tear guests ends up like

787
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 2: all over the world because we're one of the big

788
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 2: suppliers of it.

789
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 3: Okay, well, then I was mistaken. The popper ball gun

790
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 3: dispenser company apparently is based in Lake Forest, so it's

791
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 3: actually local.

792
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,840
Speaker 2: Oh interesting, Yeah, yeah, since you're kind of oh well.

793
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 3: It's just like a glorified paintball gun basically.

794
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. The thing I've been getting from listening to you

795
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 2: talk about this and from talking to other people is

796
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 2: that like, both part of what's making this so horrible

797
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 2: and also maybe where they fail is that these people

798
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 2: don't know what they're doing. They just like violence, right,

799
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 2: and liking violence and being willing to hurt people is

800
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 2: a very effective short term strategy for causing violence, right,

801
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 2: but it remains to be seen whether it's an effective

802
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 2: long term strategy for like holding power and accomplishing their goals.

803
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:12,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would agree with that for sure. It feels

804
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 3: like it feels like there their operation is brittle, like

805
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 3: it wouldn't take a lot to like impede it. But

806
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 3: because they are so violent and so out of hand,

807
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 3: that just like the slightest resistance, it's still really challenging

808
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 3: to figure out. I mean, and to your point earlier

809
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 3: about everybody hating them, I mean, that is palpable.

810
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 4: I have heard the anger and the rage pouring out

811
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:43,240
Speaker 4: of people at these guys, you know, like, of course

812
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 4: it's palpable how much people hate them, how much what's

813
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 4: going on.

814
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 3: Of course they're struggling to hire. Of course they're all

815
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,280
Speaker 3: wearing masks because they're fucking terrified they're going to be docs,

816
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 3: you know, like they know that they're hated. But that's

817
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 3: also a double edged short because I think knowing that

818
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 3: every but he hates you anyway, well, that's just also

819
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 3: sometimes going to make you even more violent because you

820
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:05,240
Speaker 3: don't care anymore.

821
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean I think the traditional social movement

822
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 2: gambit has been like the more people can see how

823
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 2: violent they are, the more people will go out to

824
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 2: resist them. And I think right now we're in this

825
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 2: scenario where because of the sort of media blackout and

826
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 2: like the media bubble that's been put around this, it

827
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 2: just hasn't been getting out the things that they've been doing.

828
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 2: And I think that is also a thing that you

829
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:37,359
Speaker 2: random listener can do things about in terms of like, hey,

830
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 2: tell people you know that, like, yeah, there's like a

831
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 2: thing a federal occupation of a city and they're like

832
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:48,319
Speaker 2: dragging naked children screaming from their homes, like tearing them

833
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 2: away from their parents. Like that's a thing that you

834
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 2: can like, that's the thing you could directly do. That

835
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 2: is a very very low lift.

836
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, and also countering this like national guard misdirection thing

837
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 3: that is just like constantly going on where it's like

838
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 3: every fucking two days, Trump and Pritzburgh are arguing about

839
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 3: you know, one hundred troops coming to town who are

840
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 3: essentially just infrastructure for ice. They might block some roads,

841
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 3: but like they're not the main threat.

842
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, do you have anything else that you want

843
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 2: to tell people? And then also where can people find

844
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 2: and support your work as you go hopefully not get

845
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 2: shot again.

846
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 3: Well, I've resigned myself to the fact that I get

847
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 3: shot again. But they can find us.

848
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 7: At Unraveled on all the social platforms, you know, Unraveled,

849
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 7: press dot com. And I think the only other thing

850
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:49,359
Speaker 7: I want to say is, you know, as bleak as

851
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 7: this episode sounded, we do have to keep the fighting

852
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 7: spirit alive and not just like yeah, resign ourselves to

853
00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 7: total dumerism. We have the moral high grounds, like we

854
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 7: are doing the right thing and they are not.

855
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we can win this.

856
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 2: I want to close on the story that came to

857
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 2: mind when you said that, which was the story of

858
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 2: the liberation of Turin in World War two, where Turin

859
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 2: was like, you know, like one of the great industrial

860
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 2: cities of Italy and it's directly under the occupation of

861
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,800
Speaker 2: the Nazis. By the end of the war and ahead

862
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 2: of the Allied advanced the city plans and uprising, and

863
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 2: the SS commander who is running the city explicitly tells them,

864
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 2: if you like, if you do this, we will turn

865
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 2: this into another warsaw And they do it anyways, and

866
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 2: they beat them. All of these factory workers who had

867
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Speaker 2: had guns smuggled in successfully do an uprising and defeat

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Speaker 2: like an SS panzer division and just kick the shit

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Speaker 2: out of them and liberate Turin. And you know, those

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Speaker 2: were people facing odds that were so much worse than

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Speaker 2: the ones they were facing today. They were facing a

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Speaker 2: straight up military occupation by the SS, and they beat them,

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Speaker 2: and they've read themselves. And you know, history is replete

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Speaker 2: with dictators who thought that their occupations would last forever,

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Speaker 2: until one day the Americans were withdrawing from Iraq, and

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Speaker 2: the only thing that's eternal is their fear of the uprising,

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Speaker 2: the will one day destroy them.

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Speaker 1: It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

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Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

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Speaker 1: now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly

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00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 1: in episode descriptions.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.