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Speaker 1: This is certainly about the tragic death assassination political assassination

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Speaker 1: of Charlie Kirk, but it is also much bigger than

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Speaker 1: an attack on an individual. It is an attack on

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Speaker 1: all of us. It is an attack on the American experiment.

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Speaker 2: It is And that's Governor Cox from the other day

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Speaker 2: after the Charlie Kirk assassination of Utah, and he got

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Speaker 2: a lot of play and a lot of attention across

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Speaker 2: the country, and a lot of people thought he sounded

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Speaker 2: like a rock star. And then it came across one

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Speaker 2: of our favorite pundits who thought and that ain't gonna work.

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Speaker 2: So we thought we would talk to that pundit, favorite

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Speaker 2: friend of the show, David Drucker. David Drucker is with

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Speaker 2: the Dispatch of senior writer, author of In Trump's Shadow,

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Speaker 2: The Battle for twenty twenty four in the Future of

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Speaker 2: the GOP.

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Speaker 3: David Drucker, Welcome back to the Armstrong You Getty Show.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I get to be that.

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Speaker 2: How do you like the Dispatch. By the way, I'm

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Speaker 2: one of the founding joiners. I paid the big check

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Speaker 2: right off the bat, so I could be a lifetime member.

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Speaker 2: That's how much I like the Dispatch. But how do

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Speaker 2: you like working that.

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Speaker 4: We appreciate it. I think we're building something really great here.

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Speaker 3: I agree.

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Speaker 4: They give me the freedom, They give me the freedom

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Speaker 4: to report news, to report good stories. They they invest

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Speaker 4: in campaign travel, and I just can't say enough about

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Speaker 4: what I think we're building here. But also the sort

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Speaker 4: of trust they give me to pursue really good stuff,

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Speaker 4: and the fact that we just don't do clifbait. There's

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Speaker 4: nothing that we think is clickbait.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I know, I know, Stephen Jonah. One other

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Speaker 2: things is and I see this every time there's a big,

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Speaker 2: giant breaking story like Charlie Kirk's assassination, you don't see

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Speaker 2: a bunch of comments immediately out of people with the dispatch.

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Speaker 2: They wait until, you know, facts come out and things

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Speaker 2: settle down a little bit before you start shooting your

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Speaker 2: mouths off or tweeting your mouths off.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a philosophy with us, And sometimes we've had

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Speaker 4: to move quicker. After the attempted assassination of Donald Trump

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Speaker 4: president at that time of presidential candidate in Butler, Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 4: we moved very quickly to at least post the news

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Speaker 4: and probably moved quicker with our follow up coverage the

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Speaker 4: next day. But in general, we like to make sure

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Speaker 4: we know what we're talking about, or that we don't

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Speaker 4: sort of report anything in the seat of the moment

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Speaker 4: that then just turns out to be all wrong in

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Speaker 4: terms of the context. Context is a very big deal

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Speaker 4: with us.

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Speaker 2: So I have a pretty healthy dose of bipartisan discussed

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Speaker 2: with politics all the way around, and you know, just

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Speaker 2: the tone of things for quite a while now, and

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Speaker 2: be nice if we can calm that down. And it

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Speaker 2: kind of fits it with what I saw you saying

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Speaker 2: the other day. I don't remember where I caught you,

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Speaker 2: but you were a little not so fast on.

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Speaker 3: Governor Cots of Utah.

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Speaker 2: Even though I liked what he had to say, You

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Speaker 2: don't think his tone is going to work in our

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Speaker 2: current politics?

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Speaker 3: Is that correct?

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Speaker 4: No? No, I don't think I meant that. I think

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Speaker 4: what I was probably, of course, like you, I've been

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Speaker 4: sort of providing so much analysis that I don't totally

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Speaker 4: remember everything I've said. But I think what I think

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Speaker 4: the discussion you're probably referring to was a question of

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Speaker 4: whether or not Governor Fox's approach to politics can can

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Speaker 4: travel be on Utah, And I think I was trying

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Speaker 4: to make the particular point that one of the reasons

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Speaker 4: you can have a Governor Cox who is a Republican

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Speaker 4: in Utah is because the incentive structure that he gets

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Speaker 4: from Utah Republican voters is different than Republican voters in

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Speaker 4: other states. So I explain that to us so, and

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Speaker 4: I'm not just saying, I'm not saying necessarily every single

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Speaker 4: Republican leaning state would reject Governor Cox in a Republican primary,

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Speaker 4: But if you're looking for reasons why, For instance, in

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Speaker 4: twenty eighteen, Mitt Romney was able to win a Republican

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Speaker 4: primary being exactly who He was critical of Trump at

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Speaker 4: times enough that people noticed, so it was a regular thing,

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Speaker 4: but was still able to be the overwhelming favorite of

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Speaker 4: the Republican primary. The reason Governor Cox has been able

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Speaker 4: to succeed in Republican politics in Utah despite being critical

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Speaker 4: at times enough that everybody notices of President Trump, is

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Speaker 4: because Republican voters in Utah, although there although they are

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Speaker 4: supportive of Trump, and there is a strong, you know,

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Speaker 4: like sort of Maga faction or populist or just throw

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Speaker 4: Trump faction of Republicans in Utah. The broad Republican electorate

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Speaker 4: in Utah is basically a very very Republican state by

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Speaker 4: the numbers. They you know, look at politics and a

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Speaker 4: sort of Reagan era with a Reagan era sense of

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Speaker 4: rules and decency and decorum. You know, they look at

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Speaker 4: even the issue of illegal immigration, they look at a

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Speaker 4: little bit differently and that they want a secure border,

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Speaker 4: but you know, they believe in more immigration, and they

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Speaker 4: believe that immigrants, even illegal immigrants, should be you know,

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Speaker 4: treated not necessarily as criminals unless they are criminals. And

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Speaker 4: so you can be critical of Donald Trump in Utah

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Speaker 4: and win a Republican primary. Now, I don't think that

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Speaker 4: you can be an opponent of Donald Trump and win

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Speaker 4: a Republican primary in Utah. They still would prefer Trump

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Speaker 4: as president because he's a Republican and more likely to

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Speaker 4: push conservative policies and support conservative values. But they will

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Speaker 4: brook criticism and they will see that as a sign

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Speaker 4: of leadership. And yes, there are Republicans in Utah that

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Speaker 4: will run against that or speak out against that as

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Speaker 4: being insufficiently conservative and too critical of Trump when we

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Speaker 4: should be critical of the Democrats instead, they will say,

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Speaker 4: but Utah is just a different sort of place and

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Speaker 4: it gives Governor Talks, you know. And I'm not taking

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Speaker 4: away from his willingness to speak out in this way,

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Speaker 4: but what I am saying is he does not have

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Speaker 4: to now look over his shoulder in a primary for

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Speaker 4: future office should he choose to run for another office

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Speaker 4: after his time as governor is up, and he does

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Speaker 4: not have to worry about a complete revolt of the

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Speaker 4: Republican Party in Utah because of the things that he

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Speaker 4: has said.

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Speaker 2: Do you think he has any interest in running for president,

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Speaker 2: like trying to beat up JD.

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Speaker 3: Vans for the nomination.

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Speaker 4: Well, I don't know, because I haven't asked him, and

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Speaker 4: I never put it past the idea that somebody that

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Speaker 4: rises to the level of governor or Senator Dogcatcher doesn't

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Speaker 4: have it in their hand that they should be president.

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Speaker 4: I don't know that a Republican like Governor Talks can

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Speaker 4: win a Republican primary against a combative populist like JD.

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Speaker 4: Vance or you know, pick somebody else, because I think

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Speaker 4: Republicans broadly, and particularly when you're looking in a lot

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Speaker 4: of these early states, but even beyond that, have would

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Speaker 4: prefer somebody that they is less conciliatory and appears to

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Speaker 4: be more of a fighter. One of the yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 4: I mean think one of the reasons that a lot

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Speaker 4: of Republican voters may at times look past Donald Trump's

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Speaker 4: provocative language and behavior, even though they don't agree with it,

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Speaker 4: is because they say to him, says, well, he's a fighter.

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Speaker 4: He's fighting for us. He is not allowing the Democrats

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Speaker 4: to do the sort of unfair thing that we believe

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Speaker 4: for years they were doing, and that the more sort

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Speaker 4: of rules following the Korum following statesman like Republicans were allowing.

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Speaker 3: Them to do.

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Speaker 4: This idea of traditional conservatism where we're gonna again, I mean,

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Speaker 4: Democrats will look at this differently, right, but like if

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Speaker 4: you're an old school conservative of the mold Reagan was

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Speaker 4: plenty of fighter. I mean, let's not forget that. But

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Speaker 4: this idea that listen, there are just rules we don't break,

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Speaker 4: and even if they break them, we're going to argue

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Speaker 4: that they shouldn't have broken the rules. But we're not

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Speaker 4: going to do what they do. That's just out of

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Speaker 4: fashion right now, Republicans. If you look at how Republicans

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Speaker 4: conduct themselves broadly speaking, meaning lawmakers and the president, they

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Speaker 4: really have adopted many of the tactics of the left

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Speaker 4: and the Democratic Party, at least those that the Democratic

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Speaker 4: Party and the left practiced, you know in my lifetime,

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Speaker 4: in the nineteen eighties and the nineteen nineties, in the

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Speaker 4: early offs that Republicans used to complain about. And now

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Speaker 4: what they've what they've done is adopt those tactics. And

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Speaker 4: you know, whether it's boycott's or cancel culture or stretching

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Speaker 4: the bounds of executive authority by the president. I mean,

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Speaker 4: in all these ways, and so.

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Speaker 3: And the people.

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Speaker 2: I can just hear people texting or saying to their

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Speaker 2: radio right now, yes and now, and we control all

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Speaker 2: three branches as of government from doing that.

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Speaker 3: So it's been successful.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I think so. And look I think for

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Speaker 4: you know, Republicans look at it this way too. I

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Speaker 4: mean to be and I didn't. I don't think my

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Speaker 4: other comments were unfair, but you know, the old thing,

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Speaker 4: to be fair, they watched Bill Clinton have an affair

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Speaker 4: in the Oval office and lie about it. Democrats didn't

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Speaker 4: have any problems with that. They never complained about it.

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Speaker 4: They never said Bill Clinton should resign, they never said

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Speaker 4: it was wrong. They basically were tribal well Bill Clinton's

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Speaker 4: our guy. He's doing it good job. Voters seem to

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Speaker 4: like the job he's doing. Look what we've won because

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Speaker 4: of Bill Clinton, and so that's okay. And and they,

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Speaker 4: you know, from a conservative point of view, they've seen

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Speaker 4: all sorts of things like that. And so I'm not

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Speaker 4: saying the right answer is therefore to act like them.

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Speaker 4: But if you talk to Republicans, they're going to say,

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Speaker 4: why are you on our case? Democrats have been doing

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Speaker 4: this for years. The broader analytical point I was making

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Speaker 4: was Republicans in a sense of, well, if you can't

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Speaker 4: beat them, join them. Right. That's what they did.

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Speaker 3: Right, How do we whether it's political violence? Though just

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 2: X's and o's tactics in politics, how do we stop

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Speaker 2: the race to the bottom? Though each side thinks the

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Speaker 2: other side fights dirtier than them, so we need to

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Speaker 2: adopt their tactics.

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Speaker 3: Both sides think that. I mean, so where do you

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Speaker 3: end up? I mean, you don't go anywhere good with

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Speaker 3: that attitude.

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Speaker 4: It's the biggest consistency in my twenty plus years of

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Speaker 4: covering politics, Both Republican operatives and Democratic operatives, never mind

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Speaker 4: elected officials, consistently tell me the other side. The other

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Speaker 4: side plays dirtier than us. I wish we played as

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Speaker 4: dirty as them, then we would win as much as

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Speaker 4: they did.

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Speaker 3: That's incredible.

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Speaker 4: The only way that any of this stops is somebody

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Speaker 4: or both sides stop keeping score and just stop. You know,

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Speaker 4: my this is I don't normally do personal anecdotes here,

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Speaker 4: but I feel like it's like the best analogy I have.

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Speaker 4: Some years back, four years ago or whatever, we were

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Speaker 4: celebrating my in law's fiftieth wedding anniversary, and anyway, the

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Speaker 4: rabbi who married my wife and I is a a

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Speaker 4: a relative a couple times removed something like that, Jimmy

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Speaker 4: Kesseler who passed away since. But Rabbi Kessler was there

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Speaker 4: and we were, you know, asking him because he had

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Speaker 4: been married fifty plus years, and I think my wife

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Speaker 4: or I asked him, like, how do you do it?

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Speaker 4: You know, we've been married at this point maybe ten years,

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Speaker 4: nine years. I don't know how how did you get

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Speaker 4: to fifty plus years? Then he just looked at Fuss

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Speaker 4: and he said, you have to sometimes you have to

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Speaker 4: know when to punt. And that sticks with me because

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Speaker 4: you know, that's.

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Speaker 3: Good marriage advice.

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Speaker 4: Right there.

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Speaker 2: If if nobody tells anything else from this, that is

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Speaker 2: a good marriage advice.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. But I mean, if you look at the United

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Speaker 4: States of America like an extended big family, we never.

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Speaker 2: Punt, well, neither side never punts. You go for it

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Speaker 2: on fourth down always.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, if that's not to say that what

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Speaker 4: the assassination of Charlie Kirk wasn't a distinct act with this,

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Speaker 4: with with the suspect doing it for distinct political reasons.

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Speaker 4: But when I'm asked the question where does his end, well,

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Speaker 4: it either ends very badly or at some point people

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Speaker 4: stop keeping score and say stop.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, well I think I know. I'm afraid we're

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Speaker 2: out of time, David. I don't know if I like

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Speaker 2: our chances at least in the short term on that,

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Speaker 2: but appreciate your talk today. D Drunker of the Dispatch,

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Speaker 2: thanks for coming on, David Kin, Thank you, Armstrong and

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Speaker 2: Getty