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Speaker 2: Donald Trump beats the Press as Don Junior heads to Greenland.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the fastest show in politics as the President
Speaker 2: elect at mar A Lago, tox Economy, Energy, geopolitics, windmills
Speaker 2: and home appliances. I'm Joe Matthew alongside Kaylee Lines in Washington.
Speaker 2: Thanks for being with us on the Tuesday edition of
Speaker 2: Balance of Power. Kaylee, it was a tour de force.
Speaker 2: He went over an hour, mused about taking over Canada
Speaker 2: and refused to rule out the idea of military force
Speaker 2: somehow to cajole Panama or Greenland.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he described both of those as being important to
Speaker 3: the economic security of the United States, and for that
Speaker 3: reason he said he couldn't rule out using either economic
Speaker 3: or military coercion in those areas, once again threatening tariffs
Speaker 3: on Canada and Mexico, as we had already heard from him,
Speaker 3: suggesting economic force could ultimately be what merges Canada and
Speaker 3: the United States, and even threatened tariffs against Denmark if
Speaker 3: it doesn't quote unquote give.
Speaker 2: Up green questioning whether it even has rights over Greenland,
Speaker 2: which is something that I think we can be pretty
Speaker 2: definitive about.
Speaker 4: But he did get into the congressional agenda a bit.
Speaker 2: We talked about a lot of policy here as well, geopolitics,
Speaker 2: and specific to Congress Kayley, the big question about sequencing.
Speaker 2: Do you do this in one big, beautiful bill? And
Speaker 2: it does seem that the President elect is open to either.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he did suggest he likes the idea of one bill,
Speaker 3: but his mind does not seem fully made up. And
Speaker 3: we do know that he will be meeting with Senate
Speaker 3: Republican leadership here in Washington on Capitol Hill tomorrow, and
Speaker 3: it is the Senate that is advocating for a two
Speaker 3: part reconciliation package or packages. Rather, the House would like
Speaker 3: to see that as one big package. And it's to
Speaker 3: the House we go. Now, We're I'm pleased to save.
Speaker 3: Republican Congressman Mike Flood of Nebraska is joining us. He's
Speaker 3: also vice chair of the Main Street Caucus. Congressman, welcome
Speaker 3: to Bloomberg TV and Radio. Thank you for being here.
Speaker 3: Is it main Street's view that the only way to
Speaker 3: really make sure the entire legislative agenda Donald Trump wants
Speaker 3: to get done gets done is one big bill.
Speaker 5: Well, I would say the overwhelming majority of main Street
Speaker 5: members in our caucus would say one bill. But that's
Speaker 5: not to say there aren't a handful of folks that
Speaker 5: see value in the two bill solution. Ultimately, this is
Speaker 5: President Trump's call. We're ready to roll. I think it's
Speaker 5: important that we make this decision and then we start
Speaker 5: to plan from it because time is ticking and we
Speaker 5: need to get active on everything that we're doing as
Speaker 5: soon as possible. You know, we're gonna have a lot
Speaker 5: of things that unfold here. We've got the Trump tax
Speaker 5: cuts expiring at the end of the year. There's really
Speaker 5: no time for delay.
Speaker 4: Congressman, it's good to have you on Bloomberg.
Speaker 2: The President Alex saying I don't want to see a
Speaker 2: debt ceiling default. I do want to say, see a
Speaker 2: debt ceiling extension.
Speaker 4: How will you get to it?
Speaker 5: Well, you know, I was talking to some of my
Speaker 5: colleagues this morning after our conference. At the end of
Speaker 5: the day. This isn't about whether or not America is
Speaker 5: going to pay its bills. America is always going to
Speaker 5: pay its bills because not dealing with the debt ceiling
Speaker 5: is a default, and a default is not good in
Speaker 5: a very major way for America, our economy.
Speaker 4: Our markets, our position in the world.
Speaker 5: Ultimately, I think we're going to deal with this in
Speaker 5: a way that's very responsible. This year is going to
Speaker 5: be a lot about cutting spending, and I don't know
Speaker 5: that every America knows how serious we are about doing this.
Speaker 5: I speak for a lot of members of the Main
Speaker 5: Street Caucus. I know that the House Freedom Caucus and
Speaker 5: so many other of my colleagues. We're talking about making
Speaker 5: serious funding cuts that will hopefully make these debt ceiling
Speaker 5: discussions less relevant going forward. But certainly we're going to
Speaker 5: deal with a debt ceiling, whether it's a two year
Speaker 5: extension in an amount that meets that standard, or it
Speaker 5: wiping it away while we sort these problems out. I'm
Speaker 5: confident we're going to find a solution and it will
Speaker 5: work just fine.
Speaker 6: Well.
Speaker 3: Obviously, the debt sealing addition in a continuing resolution before
Speaker 3: the twenty twenty four year ended in the last Congress,
Speaker 3: Congressman what caused a bit of trouble, and the deal
Speaker 3: that Republicans reached, at least in theory, was Yes, you
Speaker 3: will get a debt limit extension that will be passed
Speaker 3: when needed this year. You will also get something to
Speaker 3: two and a half trillion dollars in spending cuts. I
Speaker 3: believe how is that possible without touching Social Security and Medicare.
Speaker 5: Well, obviously we're going to go through the process of reconciliation.
Speaker 5: And we spent all day Saturday at Fort McNair in
Speaker 5: here in Washington talking about what are some of the
Speaker 5: mandatory suspending expenditures that we could address, And there are
Speaker 5: a number of opportunities that we've identified outside of Social Security, which,
Speaker 5: by the way, you can't even touch Social Security and
Speaker 5: the reconciliation process, and outside of Medicare benefits provided to Americans,
Speaker 5: there are mandatory spending programs that we've identified, and I
Speaker 5: think in the next couple of weeks, maybe in the
Speaker 5: next month and a half, the committees of jurisdiction are
Speaker 5: going to start putting forward proposals that Americans are going
Speaker 5: to have to get their hands around. This is not
Speaker 5: going to be done without pain, And after Saturday, I
Speaker 5: went home thought about it and I said, you know what,
Speaker 5: if we're really going to tackle the deficit, there is
Speaker 5: going to be a considerable amount of tough choices we
Speaker 5: need to make, and we need to prepare Americans to
Speaker 5: confront this very serious problem that we have in spending
Speaker 5: and it will be the story of March and April
Speaker 5: when people see what we're proposing.
Speaker 2: Well, this has already become a more serious conversation than
Speaker 2: we typically have with lawmakers about this. Congressman, so if
Speaker 2: we could get more detailed, at least in your view,
Speaker 2: where's the pain, if not at the Pentagon or to
Speaker 2: Cayley's point, entitlements.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, there's basically twelve pages of opportunities that
Speaker 5: we looked at over the course of Saturday that come
Speaker 5: from different committees of jurisdiction. Some of them deal with
Speaker 5: the types of reimbursements we make to different types of
Speaker 5: medical providers. You know, there's a whole system out there
Speaker 5: that's been developed over the years. It's very complicated, and
Speaker 5: sometimes we treat hospitals one way and we treat private
Speaker 5: practice physicians a different way. The reality is it's the
Speaker 5: same service both places, and so we need to have
Speaker 5: these conversations like what should the policy be as we
Speaker 5: reimburse providers. Now we're not talking about taking benefits away
Speaker 5: from Americans that need medical care, but as you'll see
Speaker 5: in the next couple of months, there's areas from the
Speaker 5: committees of Jurisdiction, Energy and Commerce, Education, Workforce. I mean,
Speaker 5: all of these different committee chairs are working diligently and
Speaker 5: are sitting down with all of us, and that's the
Speaker 5: process we have right now. I'm going to a meeting
Speaker 5: later today in the Speaker's office and we're just talking about, Okay,
Speaker 5: how will this work, what is the timing, what committees
Speaker 5: have to be involved, and who in the conference needs
Speaker 5: to be at these meetings so that they can have
Speaker 5: their voices heard. We have no room for error. We
Speaker 5: have to get to two hundred and eighteen votes. We
Speaker 5: can spare only one vote on a very very narrow process.
Speaker 5: So hopefully we can.
Speaker 6: Get there.
Speaker 7: Well.
Speaker 3: And as we count those votes, what role are Democrats
Speaker 3: going to have to play in all of this, Congressman, Well, as.
Speaker 5: Long as we're talking about reconciliation, obviously, if we can
Speaker 5: act as a majority in the House and our colleagues
Speaker 5: in the Senate can use the reconciliation process. This will
Speaker 5: be a very Republican driven agenda. Now, I'm under no
Speaker 5: illusions outside of reconciliation, we're going to have to find
Speaker 5: bipartisan solutions. We've only got fifty three votes in the Senate.
Speaker 5: There will be a number of opportunities for bipartisan agreement.
Speaker 5: But as it relates to reconciliation, and here are the
Speaker 5: top and reconciliation that I think are relevant, border spending
Speaker 5: tact cuts and energy, and I'm sure there'll be other
Speaker 5: things thrown in, but that's where I think we're going.
Speaker 4: Has anyone talked.
Speaker 2: To the parliamentarian about this, Congressman, because there are concerns
Speaker 2: and we heard John Thune talk about this that whatever
Speaker 2: is crafted in the House could crash into a wall
Speaker 2: in the Senate where it's going to have a bird bath.
Speaker 2: The bird rule that makes it clear that if outside
Speaker 2: of budgetary items, we don't have a reconciliation bill. Are
Speaker 2: you worried that border policy may be at risk by
Speaker 2: using this method.
Speaker 5: Well, we're pretty confident the border policy provisions that we're
Speaker 5: interested in can be in there. We talked about this
Speaker 5: last Saturday at Fark being there, we're going to be
Speaker 5: working hand in glove with John thrown over in the Senate.
Speaker 5: The Bird Rule has six different provisions that have to
Speaker 5: be followed. I cannot imagine we would pass the bill
Speaker 5: out of the House that hadn't been vetted through the
Speaker 5: Senate parliamentarian with the help of the majority leader over there.
Speaker 5: That would be a colossal waste of everyone's time and
Speaker 5: jeopardize this entire effort. That was one of the questions
Speaker 5: that was asked last Saturday. How do we ensure that
Speaker 5: what the House does passes the muster over in the Senate.
Speaker 5: Otherwise this is an exercise and futility.
Speaker 3: Congressman, you also have a seat on the House Financial
Speaker 3: Services Committee, so i'd like to ask you about the
Speaker 3: news we got yesterday from the Fed's Vice Chair of Supervision,
Speaker 3: Michael Barr that he does intend to step back from
Speaker 3: that role, though he will stay on as a governor.
Speaker 3: Now chair of that Financial Services Committee. Fred Schelly, your colleague,
Speaker 3: was on Bloomberg surveillance this morning. This is what he
Speaker 3: had to say about a potential replacement, and we'll have
Speaker 3: you respond.
Speaker 7: Mickey Bowman's done an outstanding job as a governor on
Speaker 7: the Federal Reserve. She comes to the Federal Reserve with
Speaker 7: practical experience both as a bank commissioner in Kansas as
Speaker 7: well as a family connected to community banking business there
Speaker 7: in the Heartland. She's been a great voice for common
Speaker 7: sense and tailoring and regulation, and I think she would
Speaker 7: be if President Trump made that decision, that would be,
Speaker 7: in my view, a good one.
Speaker 3: So the chairman is advocating for Michelle Bowman here. Congressman,
Speaker 3: do you also think that would be a good choice.
Speaker 5: Well, obviously, I'm from the heartland. My state is filled
Speaker 5: with community banks, and you know, after Selicon Valley banks
Speaker 5: collapse and the FDIC rushing in and doing the right thing,
Speaker 5: and then watching a state bank collapse in Oklahoma without
Speaker 5: the same kind of attention, I think that this is
Speaker 5: a really good move for the Federal Reserve. Our nation
Speaker 5: is built on the backs of community banks, and to
Speaker 5: have someone that has that feed on the ground perspective,
Speaker 5: I think is important. The Federal Reserve is going to
Speaker 5: play an important role in our government, especially with Donald
Speaker 5: Trump coming into the White House as a member of
Speaker 5: the Financial Services Committee. You know, Michael Barr and his
Speaker 5: Basel three and everything that's happened. We're going to turn
Speaker 5: a page and we're going to see a new Federal Reserve,
Speaker 5: hopefully a new leadership of the Federal Reserve and big
Speaker 5: things ahead.
Speaker 2: Congressman, I know you have to go vote, and I
Speaker 2: want to thank you for joining us. Making his debut
Speaker 2: here on Bloomberg TV and radio, the gentleman from Nebraska's
Speaker 2: first district Representative, Mike Flood.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power Podcast. Catch
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Speaker 2: With a lot to talk about, following our conversation with
Speaker 2: the Congressman and a more than hour long news conference
Speaker 2: from President ELEC.
Speaker 4: Donald Trump.
Speaker 2: Jennie Shanzano is here Democratic analyst, political science professor at
Speaker 2: Iona University, alongside Rick Davis, republican strategist and partner at
Speaker 2: Stone Court Capital. Rick, after what you just heard from
Speaker 2: Mike Flood, it's clear that a lot still needs to
Speaker 2: be figured out and the congressional agenda, and exactly what
Speaker 2: role of Democrats will play in it is reconciliation. They're
Speaker 2: going to be the savior that this Republican Conference hopes
Speaker 2: it will be.
Speaker 8: Well, I think they're going to stage it is if
Speaker 8: it is their savior, right, it can you know, produce
Speaker 8: a budget. They'll probably use that platform, as we heard
Speaker 8: today both from Donald Trump and others, that you know,
Speaker 8: it could be the way we uh, you know, push
Speaker 8: back the deficit. And and and I think it's important
Speaker 8: to note on Congressman flood statement that even though he
Speaker 8: said social Security is not subject to reconciliation, other mandatory
Speaker 8: entitlement programs are, and so food stamps and things like
Speaker 8: that all could be on this list of twelve pages
Speaker 8: of items that the House of Representatis are using. But
Speaker 8: I but I think that you know, these are limitations, right,
Speaker 8: even though you get advantages with reconciliation, there are a
Speaker 8: lot of things you cannot do that the government still
Speaker 8: needs to do. And so we're not paying much attention
Speaker 8: to the appropriations and authorization process. And I'd love to
Speaker 8: see regular order be the way most of this stuff
Speaker 8: gets done.
Speaker 9: Well.
Speaker 3: And Genie Joe brought up an excellent point to the congressman,
Speaker 3: the suggestion that the parliamentarian is going to play a
Speaker 3: role here nonpartisan. Obviously, they will decide what actually constitute
Speaker 3: budget and revenue measures that can be handled under reconciliation.
Speaker 3: And for all of the conversation we've had in recent
Speaker 3: weeks about how hard it's going to be for Mike
Speaker 3: Johnson to get this thing through a narrow majority in
Speaker 3: the House, how hard is it going to be for
Speaker 3: John Thune if he really wants to preserve the traditions
Speaker 3: of the US Senate.
Speaker 9: It's going to be difficult, you wonder, for all of
Speaker 9: his institutional focus, and as you mentioned, preserving the traditions
Speaker 9: of the all important upper Chamber of Congress, is he
Speaker 9: tying his hands behind his back essentially by saying we
Speaker 9: will not question what the parliamentarian rules, we will abide
Speaker 9: by the filibuster. These are things that can obviously make
Speaker 9: his job a lot easier. That said, as an institutionalist,
Speaker 9: he believes profoundly in the idea of preserving what people
Speaker 9: have always loved about the US Senate, and so he
Speaker 9: is going to try to do that. It may impede
Speaker 9: down from agenda. And you know, I thought the conversation
Speaker 9: with Representative Flood was so good because he was so
Speaker 9: sober in terms of making the point that needs to
Speaker 9: be underscored. Republicans are serious. He says about cutting spending
Speaker 9: and that is going to require pain. And he mentioned
Speaker 9: that word pain to you both, and I thought it
Speaker 9: was so important, and he said, you know, we need
Speaker 9: to let the American people know that addressing the deficit
Speaker 9: is going to require pain. What we don't know yet
Speaker 9: is where that pain will be. And you all ask
Speaker 9: such an important question. If it's not social Security, if
Speaker 9: it's not Medicare, if it's not defense, what is it
Speaker 9: going to be? And of course we don't know that yet.
Speaker 9: They're still just in the early stages of this, but
Speaker 9: you know, it is going to be fascinating to see
Speaker 9: how they can get where they say they're going and
Speaker 9: how they can make this happen with a president who
Speaker 9: during the campaign was promising anything butt pain for the
Speaker 9: American public, and certainly at this press conference at mar
Speaker 9: Lago today.
Speaker 6: So you know, I can't help but.
Speaker 9: Wonder how they get there and you know, indeed, fulfill
Speaker 9: all these promises that they've made on the campaign trail.
Speaker 2: I'm glad you mentioned that, Genie, because I do wonder
Speaker 2: Rick if Congressman Flood is speaking Donald Trump's language there
Speaker 2: or if they're in two very different places. When it
Speaker 2: comes to the so called pain and budget cuts. A
Speaker 2: big deal has been made about dode. She says, Elon
Speaker 2: Musk is the greatest cutter of all time. But is
Speaker 2: that the kind of a rhetoric that Donald Trump's going
Speaker 2: to be using and potentially causing blowback from the elector
Speaker 2: the people who actually enjoy the programs that we're talking about.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 8: Sure, anytime you start cutting government spending, somebody is going
Speaker 8: to be impacted by that. The reality, though, is it's
Speaker 8: the right approach to take in the sense that if
Speaker 8: you lay out the idea that we're going to take
Speaker 8: some things away from people, whether it's programs inside the
Speaker 8: Education Department or Department of Energy or HHS, the reality
Speaker 8: is we got to start a program to where we
Speaker 8: start being right sizing government. And I think Donald Trump's
Speaker 8: you know, the one thing you got to give him
Speaker 8: credit for is he'll take a loss and turn it
Speaker 8: into a win. Right, So, Okay, maybe they don't get
Speaker 8: to two trillion dollars and cuts over the federal budget
Speaker 8: in ten years. Even if it's close to a trillion, he's.
Speaker 4: Going to declare victory.
Speaker 8: And by the way, I have done more than most
Speaker 8: anybody else in our lifetime to sort of stem the
Speaker 8: growth of the federal government. Look, I do think the
Speaker 8: safety valve is United States Senate. I mean, whatever comes
Speaker 8: out of there will be bipartisan.
Speaker 4: It does not.
Speaker 8: The reconciliation doesn't trigger the you know, the filibuster. So
Speaker 8: it's just whatever, you know, you can get to fifty
Speaker 8: one and and like what has happened in the past
Speaker 8: on these reconciliation bills, the House will take the lead
Speaker 8: and fail, and Senate will come in with their own
Speaker 8: version of a bipartisan bill, and you're probably gonna wind
Speaker 8: up with Democratic votes in the House to get it done.
Speaker 8: And by the way, applause by the White House because
Speaker 8: they just want to sign something that advances their agenda.
Speaker 8: So I think that realistically seeing something. You know, James Mahoney,
Speaker 8: our producer, said, March madness is going to be more
Speaker 8: than just basketball this year, and I think he's right.
Speaker 8: This is going to be fiscal March madness. So you know,
Speaker 8: we ought to start our own little chart to see
Speaker 8: what stays and what goes.
Speaker 3: We love it when producer James gets a shout out, Genie,
Speaker 3: if we're talking about March madness, that's getting intoto what
Speaker 3: two months in the second Trump administration, for all of
Speaker 3: our conversation around early wins, Donald Trump might want to
Speaker 3: not are they really going to end up being all
Speaker 3: that early?
Speaker 9: He's hoping they're early, and I think that's why we
Speaker 9: heard him again today in the press conference say he's open.
Speaker 9: You know, he prefers the one big beautiful reconciliation bill,
Speaker 9: but it has to be too. He's okay with that
Speaker 9: as long as he achieves this agenda. And I think
Speaker 9: that's what John Thune has been trying to urge the
Speaker 9: president is he can get a win on energy, which
Speaker 9: he talked again today about how that will help cut
Speaker 9: grocery prices, and he can get a win on immigration
Speaker 9: if he does the two step approach. But of course
Speaker 9: you've got a house and Mike Johnson and Jason Smith
Speaker 9: and others saying you gotta go big, bold and one
Speaker 9: big beautiful bill, So you know, we don't know how
Speaker 9: early this is gonna be. And just to what Rick
Speaker 9: was talking about. All of those proposals that they've talked
Speaker 9: about Elon Musk, the bag Ramaswami for Doze in terms
Speaker 9: of cutting the education Department, the schedule left that doesn't
Speaker 9: begin to get us to the two trillion dollars that
Speaker 9: they're talking about. It doesn't even get us.
Speaker 6: Close to half of that.
Speaker 9: They're gonna have to have big cuts, and that's what
Speaker 9: we haven't heard.
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, Geenie Shanzano and Rick Davis, our signature
Speaker 3: political panel.
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Speaker 4: Live from the Nation's Capital.
Speaker 2: It is Balance of Power, the Tuesday edition, and we
Speaker 2: have breaking news as the Associated Press reports the appeals
Speaker 2: Court judge refusing to delay Donald Trump's planned sentencing on Friday.
Speaker 2: This is the New York hush money case, and one
Speaker 2: Kayley that we knew was not going to result in
Speaker 2: jail time ahead of the inauguration. That's been made clear,
Speaker 2: but one that we thought might actually move here.
Speaker 4: Also pretty important.
Speaker 2: This was for January tenth, by the way, yep, and
Speaker 2: the implications of presidential immunity.
Speaker 4: Here are large.
Speaker 2: This just happened, by the way, the Appeals court judge
Speaker 2: refusing to delay the sentencing, which we'll go on as
Speaker 2: planned on Friday.
Speaker 3: Yeah, not just delaying the sentencing, but also refusing to
Speaker 3: vacate the verdict, because that is something that Trump and
Speaker 3: his legal team had asked for in light of the
Speaker 3: presidential immunity decision from the Supreme Court. They suggested that
Speaker 3: the case in which he was found guilty of thirty
Speaker 3: four fellow accounts should be tossed out as some of
Speaker 3: these checks, for example, that were used as evidence were
Speaker 3: written by Trump when he was sitting in the Oval office.
Speaker 3: But the Appeals Court has not bought in to that
Speaker 3: argument in this case. So it does look with the
Speaker 3: sentencing we'll continue on Friday. Though Donald Trump is not
Speaker 3: expected to attend in person, he was given the option.
Speaker 10: To appear virtually. That's likely how this will go.
Speaker 3: And again, as you said, no jail time, unconditional discharge
Speaker 3: is what Judge Wan Merechan has suggested, which essentially means
Speaker 3: no punishment.
Speaker 4: It's pretty remarkable.
Speaker 2: Donald Trump held an hour plus long news conference at
Speaker 2: mar A Lago earlier and talked about the legal implications here,
Speaker 2: referring to his former presidency, his first term, and the
Speaker 2: good work that he says he's done with regard to
Speaker 2: the American people.
Speaker 4: To see the.
Speaker 2: Government weaponized against him. We'll probably hear more of that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: come Friday. He talked about a lot of things today.
Speaker 10: He did.
Speaker 3: He even had news broken to him because while he
Speaker 3: was in the middle of the news conference, we got
Speaker 3: the order from the judge in the document's case down
Speaker 3: in Florida, a Trump appointee, Island Cannon, who blocked the
Speaker 3: release of the report from Special Council Jack Smith. Of course,
Speaker 3: this prosecution was not going forward. In fact, Jack Smith
Speaker 3: had been found to be incons unconstitutionally appointed by Judge
Speaker 3: Cannon earlier on in the case.
Speaker 10: So this wasn't going to proceed.
Speaker 3: But we did think we might get an eye on
Speaker 3: all of the evidence that Jack Smith had gathered through
Speaker 3: the release of this report. Trump's team obviously had asked
Speaker 3: for that to be blocked, and at least for now
Speaker 3: they have gotten their wish on that.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Merrick Garland had indicated that he would allow the release
Speaker 2: of that report if it had been completed. A lot
Speaker 2: of folks thought they'd be seeing that imminently. There were
Speaker 2: headlines about this morning, Kayley, But you're right, this new
Speaker 2: order from the federal judge in Florida puts this to rest.
Speaker 2: It looks like Jack Smith is on ice for at
Speaker 2: least the next four years.
Speaker 3: And of course all of this happening, which is days
Speaker 3: to go until Donald Trump is inaugurated, and in fact, when
Speaker 3: that sentencing hearing is held on Friday, will be just
Speaker 3: ten days and we'll be just five days out from inauguration, Joe,
Speaker 3: when the country once again is going to be facing
Speaker 3: down some labor risk. As January fifteenth is the deadline
Speaker 3: for the international longshoremen on the ports on the East Coast,
Speaker 3: it is half of cargo volumes in the country by volume,
Speaker 3: could threaten to go on strike once more.
Speaker 10: Remember they did so for three days in the fall, reached.
Speaker 3: A temporary tentative deal that covered only wages, and now
Speaker 3: as talks resumed today, what they have to sort out
Speaker 3: is the issue of automation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there were two components to this, and I think
Speaker 2: some suggested on this program that the.
Speaker 4: Wages might be the easy part.
Speaker 2: Dealing with automation, for which dock workers have an extreme allergy,
Speaker 2: is another matter. They're meeting in New Jersey with about
Speaker 2: a week, as Kayley mentioned, left to hammer out a
Speaker 2: deal here and avoid a strike that would debilitate the economy.
Speaker 2: We're talking about closing down ports up and down the
Speaker 2: East coast here and the Gulf of Mexico, which Donald
Speaker 2: Trump wants to rename the Gulf of America. There's a
Speaker 2: lot of cross current with what we're hearing about AI,
Speaker 2: about the physical AI in the words of Jensen Wong
Speaker 2: last evening, or the AI workforce as we hear from
Speaker 2: Mark Bennioff at Salesforce. The idea of automation appears to
Speaker 2: be inevitable. And it's interesting to consider that Donald Trump
Speaker 2: is joining the dock workers in this pushback.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he has been on their side with this. I
Speaker 3: guess it becomes a question if they're actively striking when
Speaker 3: he's taking the oath of office, how he will.
Speaker 10: That comptics would be remarked approach the issue.
Speaker 3: And we want to get into all of this now
Speaker 3: with an expert on labor Sharon Block is with us.
Speaker 3: She's Professor of Practice and executive director of the Center
Speaker 3: for Labor and adjust Economy at Harvard Law School. Welcome
Speaker 3: back to Bloomberg TV and Radio, Sharon. When we focus
Speaker 3: on the dock workers, specifically in this issue over automation
Speaker 3: and what technology can and cannot be used at ports
Speaker 3: by the employers of these dock workers, how hard is
Speaker 3: this actually going to be to resolve?
Speaker 11: Well, obviously, the negotiations have been going on for a while,
Speaker 11: so this is an easy issue. But this is the
Speaker 11: way to get it done, to sit at the bargaining table,
Speaker 11: let workers have a voice in the big important decisions
Speaker 11: about how these ports are going to operate going forward.
Speaker 11: But I think you know, you've hit on a really
Speaker 11: important sort of new participant at the table, and that's
Speaker 11: the incoming President Donald Trump.
Speaker 6: And are these doc.
Speaker 11: Workers really going to believe that he's going to continue
Speaker 11: to stand with them the way that President Biden did
Speaker 11: when they started these negotiations. I think that's a variable
Speaker 11: that none of us know exactly how that's going to
Speaker 11: play out.
Speaker 2: Well, are we simply talking about delaying the inevitable here,
Speaker 2: or should DOC workers have some sort of claim on
Speaker 2: manual labor that cannot be replaced by automation.
Speaker 6: You know, it's really not an either or and and
Speaker 6: you know, I think if you really dive into what
Speaker 6: the DOC workers want, and it's it's similar to what
Speaker 6: all workers who are facing technological change to their.
Speaker 11: Jobs want, which is to have a say in how
Speaker 11: these big changes happen, to have their interests and not
Speaker 11: just sort of the corporate bottom line or the shareholder's
Speaker 11: interests taken into account as these decisions are being made.
Speaker 11: So it's not sort of binary, yes, automation, no automation,
Speaker 11: it's how are these changes going to unfold, what's the
Speaker 11: piece of change, what kind of supports are put in
Speaker 11: place for workers whose jobs really are transformed by new technology?
Speaker 11: And it's it's an issue that's just going to keep
Speaker 11: coming up again and again, as you know, as you highlighted,
Speaker 11: as AI finds its way into more and more workplaces.
Speaker 11: So it's really important that we have good models of
Speaker 11: these kinds of transformations happening with workers, not just to workers.
Speaker 3: Well, when we consider the Sharon and I take your
Speaker 3: point about how it doesn't necessarily have to be something
Speaker 3: binary that technology can be incorporated while still keeping jobs intact.
Speaker 3: And yet at some point isn't the point of greater
Speaker 3: efficiency to reduce operating costs like paying more workers to
Speaker 3: do jobs that machines could do. And I wonder how
Speaker 3: that has to be balanced here at the idea that
Speaker 3: if you want to make things more efficient, at some
Speaker 3: point that could come at the cost of jobs, And
Speaker 3: how the labor movement as a whole is going to
Speaker 3: be approaching that.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 11: Yeah, if you look at the history of the labor movement,
Speaker 11: obviously they have been a part of many technological transformations.
Speaker 11: So again, it's not a matter of trying to stop
Speaker 11: increased productivity that can come from technological change. But then
Speaker 11: what what are the interests of the workers in making
Speaker 11: those transformations? Are there resources made available for workers to
Speaker 11: reskill or upskill, or to spread the work, the remaining
Speaker 11: work among more people. Again, it's not just about do
Speaker 11: you show up one day and your job is gone,
Speaker 11: or do you keep the technology out of the out
Speaker 11: of the industry. It's having a process and giving workers
Speaker 11: a voice and having their interests be part of the
Speaker 11: strategy for bringing new technology into the workplace.
Speaker 2: Or do we make existing workers more productive by leveraging
Speaker 2: this technology. Sharon, we hear so much about labor shortages,
Speaker 2: and you've got to as I mentioned someone like Mark
Speaker 2: Benioff talking about an AI workforce, if you can't find
Speaker 2: the people, well we've got them for you here in
Speaker 2: a different world. That doesn't necess necessarily have to mean
Speaker 2: job cuts, does it.
Speaker 6: It doesn't.
Speaker 11: And in fact, I think what we're seeing right now
Speaker 11: is more sort of enhancement and augmentation of jobs than
Speaker 11: actually replacement of jobs.
Speaker 6: And you know, there are certainly.
Speaker 11: Lots of people who will tell you that they can
Speaker 11: look into the crystal ball and know exactly sort of
Speaker 11: where this AI process is going. We don't know, but
Speaker 11: I think what we've seen so far is that it
Speaker 11: isn't a replacement story. It's an augmentation story, but it's
Speaker 11: also a surveillance story. It's also a taking humans out
Speaker 11: of management story, and I think it's really important to
Speaker 11: remember that that's also part of what we need to
Speaker 11: be dealing with as AI comes more into the workplace.
Speaker 11: Is it harming workers Even when it's not taking their jobs,
Speaker 11: it can.
Speaker 6: Still be.
Speaker 11: Detrimental to the quality of jobs, or it can in
Speaker 11: fact make jobs safer. You know, if automation can do
Speaker 11: some of the parts of jobs, tasks within jobs that
Speaker 11: are particularly dangerous, that are maybe particularly tedious or monotonous,
Speaker 11: that can be a win win for both productivity for
Speaker 11: the workers. But again, you need to employers, managers need
Speaker 11: to be listening to workers just really understand what is
Speaker 11: happening at work so that they can together figure out
Speaker 11: both what will make the job most productive, what will
Speaker 11: make it most safe, and hopefully what will continue to
Speaker 11: make it a good job.
Speaker 3: Sharon, as we consider the year ahead of us in
Speaker 3: twenty twenty five, our colleagues have put together a great
Speaker 3: story out on the wire today from Bloomberg Law that
Speaker 3: finds two hundred large union contracts nearly are set to
Speaker 3: expire this year, covering more than one and a half
Speaker 3: million workers. Is this going to be another red hot
Speaker 3: labor year as we've experienced recently.
Speaker 11: I mean, with that many contracts coming up, I think
Speaker 11: it will be. But you know, I'm not happy to say.
Speaker 11: I think there's a lot of uncertainty about how those
Speaker 11: kinds of negotiations are going to unfold because of the
Speaker 11: change in administrations we are coming off of or will
Speaker 11: be coming off of. It you know, towards the end
Speaker 11: of this month, the most pro union president in our
Speaker 11: history were then will be inaugurating a president who had
Speaker 11: a record in his first term of undermining the labor movement,
Speaker 11: of undermining workers when they came to the bargaining table.
Speaker 11: And so I think that again has just added another
Speaker 11: layer of uncertainty. And I'm very concerned. If you looked
Speaker 11: at the National Labor Relations Board under the under Trump
Speaker 11: in the first administration, this was a National Labor Relations
Speaker 11: Board which really tried to ratchet back protections for workers
Speaker 11: at the bargaining table. So I think that's going to
Speaker 11: put some added pressure on those negotiations. But again, with
Speaker 11: that many contracts up at one time, it kind of
Speaker 11: creates its own momentum and its own dynamics. So it
Speaker 11: should be a very very interesting year to watch.
Speaker 4: Labor, that's for sure. We'd like to stay close with
Speaker 4: you on this, Sharon. It's great to see you.
Speaker 2: Sharon Block with us on Bloomberg TV and Radio. We
Speaker 2: appreciate the insights. I'm Joe Matthew alongside Kaylee Lines in
Speaker 2: our remaining couple of moments here, Kaylee, we should point
Speaker 2: everyone to what's about to happen here in Washington. Roughly
Speaker 2: a half an hour from now, President Carter's remains will
Speaker 2: arrive at Joint Base Andrews, and that will tick off
Speaker 2: the beginning of a sequence of events that we're going
Speaker 2: to be tracking through the next couple of days here
Speaker 2: leading up to his funeral in Washington and return to Georgia.
Speaker 2: A horse drawn cason will carry Jimmy Carter's remains from
Speaker 2: the US Navy Memorial right on Pennsylvania Avenue into the
Speaker 2: Rotunda and there's going to be a service there. Kamala Harris,
Speaker 2: we'll speak along with others, including John fun Yeah.
Speaker 3: He will lie in state in the capital for nearly
Speaker 3: two full days. The public will be able to pay
Speaker 3: their respects beginning at seven pm until midnight tonight and
Speaker 3: all day tomorrow, and of course, all of this leading
Speaker 3: up to the state funeral that will be held at
Speaker 3: the Cathedral here in Washington on Thursday morning. And we
Speaker 3: will be having special coverage of that state funeral here
Speaker 3: on Bloomberg from nine to twelve, and then we'll be
Speaker 3: here for a special edition of Balance of Power from
Speaker 3: twelve to two pm Eastern.
Speaker 2: It will be a national day of Morning no market trading,
Speaker 2: no stocks on Thursday, but we'll have you covered here
Speaker 2: as you would expect on Bloomberg, David Gora has made
Speaker 2: his way to the Capitol, and Marie Hordern will be
Speaker 2: involved as well in.
Speaker 4: Our special coverage. Thanks for listening to the Balance of
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