Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're writing
Speaker 1: letters to our representatives telling them all the ways they
Speaker 1: actually can support girls and women in sports. It's Thursday,
Speaker 1: January sixteenth that on today's show, we'll be talking to
Speaker 1: ESPN feature writer Katie Barnes about the news that House
Speaker 1: Republicans have passed a bill barring trans athletes from women's sports. Plus,
Speaker 1: it pays to be a Husky its core season in
Speaker 1: the w and we offer up a little bookstore redecorating advice.
Speaker 1: It's all coming up right after this welcome back slices.
Speaker 1: Here's what you need to know today. The US House
Speaker 1: of Representatives on Tuesday passed a bill that would prohibit
Speaker 1: transgender girls and women from competing on school athletic teams
Speaker 1: that are designated for female students.
Speaker 2: If the Senate approves the.
Speaker 1: Bill and it goes on to become law, schools that
Speaker 1: allow trans girls or women to compete could lose federal funding.
Speaker 1: We're going to dive deep into this news with today's
Speaker 1: guest Katie Barnes later in the show. College Hoops News,
Speaker 1: the Yukon Huskies are the first public women's college program
Speaker 1: to report more than three million dollars in annual ticket sales.
Speaker 1: That number three point twenty five million, to be exact,
Speaker 1: was disclosed on Wednesday as part of the school's most
Speaker 1: recent NCAA financial reporting. Per Sportico, Yukon women's basketball generated
Speaker 1: more revenue than that reported by seventy five public men's
Speaker 1: teams the prior year. We'll link to the full Sportico
Speaker 1: report in our show Notes to Soccer.
Speaker 2: Former captain of.
Speaker 1: The Kansas City Current Desire Scott is coming out of
Speaker 1: her a very brief retirement to join the Ottawa Rapid,
Speaker 1: one of the inaugural six clubs in the Northern Super League,
Speaker 1: Canada's new pro soccer league. Scott is a four time
Speaker 1: Olympian for the Canadian national team, winning Golden Tokyo and
Speaker 1: bronze medals at the twenty twelve London and twenty sixteen
Speaker 1: Rio Games. All six NSL rosters are starting to fill out.
Speaker 1: Among the highlights, longtime Canadian goalie Aaron McLeod has signed
Speaker 1: with the Halifax Tides, and American Nikki Stanton, who most
Speaker 1: recently played for the NWSL Seattle Rain, has signed to
Speaker 1: Vancouver Rise FC. Inaugural NSL season gets underway, in April
Speaker 1: to the WNBA. The Seattle Storm have cored Gabby Williams,
Speaker 1: who played twelve games for the franchise after helping lead
Speaker 1: France to a silver medal at last year's Paras Olympics.
Speaker 2: The court designation.
Speaker 1: Means that teams gain the exclusive negotiating rights for players
Speaker 1: who are otherwise set to become free agents. In other words,
Speaker 1: Williams isn't guaranteed to stay with the Storm, but at
Speaker 1: the very least she'll be offered a one year super
Speaker 1: max contract, currently worth two hundred and forty nine thou
Speaker 1: two hundred and forty four bucks. Each WNBA team has
Speaker 1: until January twentieth to extend core designations. Other players who
Speaker 1: have already received offers include Las Vegas Kelsey Plum, New
Speaker 1: York's Brianna Stewart, and Dallas's Sattuo Sabily, though Sably is
Speaker 1: expected to negotiate a trade to another team after announcing
Speaker 1: at Unrivaled Pressers she's played her last.
Speaker 2: Game for Dallas.
Speaker 1: To tennis and the Australian Open, Naomi Osaka is into
Speaker 1: the third round after defeating world number twenty Carolina Mouhova
Speaker 1: in marks Osaka's first time advancing to the third round
Speaker 1: of any Grant's line in three years. Osaka, a two
Speaker 1: time Australian Open champ, will face Belinda Bencicic. While Osaka's
Speaker 1: been successful on the court, it's been a very chaotic
Speaker 1: couple of weeks for the twenty seven year old off it.
Speaker 1: Last week, she announced that her relationship with longtime partner
Speaker 1: Rapper Corde had ended. They started dating in twenty nineteen
Speaker 1: and share a daughter, Shi, who.
Speaker 2: Is one and a half.
Speaker 1: Osaka also told reporters in Melbourne that the Los Angeles
Speaker 1: wildfires made it within three blocks of her home, causing
Speaker 1: her to ask someone back home to retrieve her daughter's
Speaker 1: birth certificate in case the house was lost in the wildfires.
Speaker 1: To pro volleyball, love isn't the only game in town.
Speaker 1: The Pro Volleyball Federation just started its second season with
Speaker 1: eight teams around the country, and last week the Omaha
Speaker 1: Supernovas reset the US pro Volleyball attendance record when thirteen thousy,
Speaker 1: four hundred and eighty six people crammed into the Chi
Speaker 1: Health Center in downtown Omaha to see the team win
Speaker 1: a five set thriller over the Atlanta Vibe. There are
Speaker 1: six PVF teams in action tonight, beginning with the Indie
Speaker 1: Ignite taken on Grand Rapids and the Columbus Fury at
Speaker 1: the Atlanta Vibe, both at seven pm Eastern. Will link
Speaker 1: to the full game schedule and tune in info in
Speaker 1: our show notes.
Speaker 2: We got to take a quick break. When we come back.
Speaker 1: Everything you need to know about the very inaccurately named
Speaker 1: Protection of Women and Girls in Sports Act with Katie.
Speaker 2: Barnes joining us now.
Speaker 1: They're an award winning journalists, producer, and author covering the
Speaker 1: intersection of sports and gender. Their work has appeared across
Speaker 1: multiple ESPN platforms, including ESPN dot Com, Sports Center, Outside
Speaker 1: the Lines, and the ESPN Daily Podcast.
Speaker 2: They're a three time GLAD nominee, and we're.
Speaker 1: Named the twenty seventeen Journalist of the Year by the
Speaker 1: Association of LGBTQ Journalists. Their book Fair Play, How Sports
Speaker 1: Shape the Gender Debates was on Time Magazine's list of
Speaker 1: one hundred must read books of twenty twenty three. They
Speaker 1: love Bourbon and Disneyland, and they've been to the best
Speaker 1: women's sports bar in Chicago more times than I have.
Speaker 1: I'm working on it, Katie Barnes what's up, Katie?
Speaker 2: Yo? What's up?
Speaker 3: What an intro? I feel so cool? Thank you?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean you are cool. Fun fact.
Speaker 1: Once for a gift, I asked for two books, both
Speaker 1: of them named fair Play. I'm sure you recognize that
Speaker 1: there's another book also named fair Play that sometimes people
Speaker 1: mistake for yours.
Speaker 2: Both fantastic books. I got them both for the same birthday.
Speaker 3: I first of all love it. Second of all, yes,
Speaker 3: I do know that.
Speaker 4: They're about wildly different things. Yeah, both about gender. So
Speaker 4: that's kind of interesting and both fascinating. Thanks for making
Speaker 4: time for us last minute.
Speaker 1: You are here today to help us make sense of
Speaker 1: the we believe very poorly named Protection of Women and
Speaker 1: Girls in Sports Act bill that the House just voted
Speaker 1: to pass on Tuesday. So can you sort of break
Speaker 1: down what the bill intends to do?
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, what the bill does is it builds on
Speaker 4: legislation that has passed across the country that bars trench
Speaker 4: into girls and women from participating in girls and women's
Speaker 4: sports at the school in collegiate levels. What is different, however,
Speaker 4: about the piece of legislation is actually a men's Title
Speaker 4: nine to define sex as being determined by a reproductive
Speaker 4: biology and genetics at birth direct quote, and then ties
Speaker 4: federal funding to the issue of a transgender girls and
Speaker 4: women participating girls women's sports by basically saying that you'd
Speaker 4: be out of compliance with Title nine if any school
Speaker 4: enacted such a policy. So it is incredibly broad in
Speaker 4: terms of how far it reaches, but it's also very
Speaker 4: specific in that it is at the school level because
Speaker 4: it's about federal funding and Title nine and not about
Speaker 4: how a state is defining sex or about who's eligible
Speaker 4: for school sports. It's different and interesting in that regard
Speaker 4: from a policy perspective.
Speaker 1: And it doesn't seek different policies for those levels of education. Right,
Speaker 1: So the same policy would apply to a third grader
Speaker 1: as a collegiate athlete.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there's some question about that, but as
Speaker 4: it's written, that is certainly what it looks like, in
Speaker 4: that there is no differentiation in the text or any
Speaker 4: enumeration of how this would be applied across different school categories.
Speaker 4: It basically says federal funding for institutions that you receive it,
Speaker 4: which is pretty much every school in the country, and
Speaker 4: as we know, Title nine, although we often talk about
Speaker 4: it in a collegiate sense and in a women's sports sense.
Speaker 4: Title nine applied, it's an equal access education law, so
Speaker 4: it applies to any school receiving federal funding, which includes
Speaker 4: private schools.
Speaker 3: It includes elementary schools, middle schools.
Speaker 4: And because there is no differentiation at this point as
Speaker 4: it's written, that is certainly the interpretation that a lot
Speaker 4: of people have of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the amendment to the federal law, the Title nine law,
Speaker 1: is an interesting one because, as to your point, it
Speaker 1: requires that sex will be recognized solely on a person's
Speaker 1: reproductive biology and genetics at birth for determining compliance. Those
Speaker 1: who are in support of this bill, many of whom
Speaker 1: seem to believe that that is the only way to
Speaker 1: acknowledge gender, then don't really believe it to be an amendment.
Speaker 1: They believe it to be a reinforcement of Title nine,
Speaker 1: because their insistence is that the only gender is that
Speaker 1: associated with your reproductive biology, whereas Title nine, without saying
Speaker 1: so much, has sort of thus far allowed for gender
Speaker 1: identity to dictate in many ways.
Speaker 2: Your participation is that accurate?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think in general, the core of
Speaker 4: the legal dispute around transgender students and transgender athletes participating
Speaker 4: in school sports is about how Title nine should be applied.
Speaker 4: And also, you know, litigating existing case law about sex
Speaker 4: based discrimination. So you have folks who are arguing in
Speaker 4: favor of inclusive policy in schools and inclusive policy for
Speaker 4: transgender student athletes at.
Speaker 3: The school sports level.
Speaker 4: Mostly you know, looking at this case law that has
Speaker 4: been built that goes from this case. It's like Price
Speaker 4: Waterhouse be Hopkins from nineteen eighty nine up to Bosstoc,
Speaker 4: which is a Title seven ruling about employment discrimination just
Speaker 4: from a few years ago, and building their case on
Speaker 4: how sex based discrimination applies to sex stereotypes and therefore
Speaker 4: would apply to gender identity, et cetera.
Speaker 3: Like, it's a very clear line of thinking in that regard.
Speaker 4: And for those who are in favor of restrictive policy
Speaker 4: for transgender students and athletes, they argue that Title nine
Speaker 4: does not need any additional discussion, right, Like it says
Speaker 4: on the basis.
Speaker 3: Of sex is fixed and immutable.
Speaker 1: The end is what as opposed to gender right, right,
Speaker 1: And so the interpretation of these words is core to
Speaker 1: all of the legal proceedings that are happening across the
Speaker 1: country in terms of challenging the already existing legislation at
Speaker 1: the state level as well as you know, the few
Speaker 1: Title nine cases specifically that have been litigated as they
Speaker 1: pertain to transgender students and schools as well as transgender athletes.
Speaker 1: In my brain, I'm doing this calculation of, Oh, it
Speaker 1: feels like it would it would be more jarring to
Speaker 1: convince people to change existing Title nine law. So in
Speaker 1: order to soften that blow, you say you're not actually
Speaker 1: changing anything. It's very explicit in what it says about sex.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, our government and the people in
Speaker 1: charge are rapidly changing, and I wonder if there is
Speaker 1: much pushback to the idea of changing Title nine, or
Speaker 1: if a lot of the people in Congress and the
Speaker 1: Senate actually believe that Title nine is a law whose
Speaker 1: strength should be weakened, is a law whose enforcement should
Speaker 1: continue to be not properly enforced. Because we saw with
Speaker 1: like Betsy de Vas and some others in the previous
Speaker 1: Trump administration, there was certainly what felt like a desire.
Speaker 2: To take some of the teeth out of Title nine.
Speaker 4: Well, it's interesting in terms of, you know, taking some
Speaker 4: the teeth out of Title nine. It's actually in fascinating
Speaker 4: to me because you know, under the first Trump administration,
Speaker 4: you know, Betsy Devas in the later years and the
Speaker 4: Department of Education, you know, really weabinized Title nine specifically
Speaker 4: against transgender athletes and policy as it pertains to transgender
Speaker 4: athletes holding up funding in the state of Connecticut for
Speaker 4: a couple, like for a completely non related magnet program
Speaker 4: in New Haven. Eventually that funding was granted, but that
Speaker 4: did happen, and it was specifically about transgender inclusive policy
Speaker 4: in the state, as well as forcing Franklin Pierce University
Speaker 4: to change its policy that allowed for cc Telford to
Speaker 4: compete on its team and then win a national championship
Speaker 4: in twenty nineteen in Division two hurdles and on this category.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I'm thinking of Betsy Devas trying to
Speaker 1: use Title nine in issues of sexual assault.
Speaker 4: Yes, right, so there was like a role back there
Speaker 4: and then a weaponization in other spaces.
Speaker 2: Interesting.
Speaker 4: But I think what's fascinating about some of this conversation
Speaker 4: is that for a lot of the general public, transgender
Speaker 4: athletes as an idea and as an issue really came
Speaker 4: to the public consciousness around like really with Leah Thomas.
Speaker 3: In twenty twenty one and twenty twenty two.
Speaker 4: But this topic had been a legal football for years
Speaker 4: before that, going back to the Obama administration sending out,
Speaker 4: you know, basically formal guidance around how to treat transgender
Speaker 4: students in schools in twenty sixteen and saying that transgender
Speaker 4: youth should be affirmed in this in these ways, and
Speaker 4: twenty three states sued the Obama administration over the implementation
Speaker 4: of that guidance and it never went into full effect.
Speaker 4: And then you have the first Trump administration comes in.
Speaker 4: One of the first things they do is rescind that
Speaker 4: guidance and so like, this is something that has been
Speaker 4: part of a back and forth for years pre dating
Speaker 4: I think with the public really began to become aware
Speaker 4: of it.
Speaker 1: One of the things that I'm curious about, if the
Speaker 1: desire is to make all participation coincide with reproductive biology
Speaker 1: and genetics at birth, there are a lot of politicians
Speaker 1: who are all too eager to conflate transgender athletes and
Speaker 1: athletes with DSDs so differences in sex development, and also
Speaker 1: even cisgender women who maybe just present as more masks
Speaker 1: or are physically strong or tall or bigger, all those
Speaker 1: things that we hear about the worst case scenarios where
Speaker 1: parents are yelling at athletes on the field that's a
Speaker 1: boy without any proof, without any reason other than this
Speaker 1: now desire to sort of take all of the anti
Speaker 1: trans rhetoric and apply it in other.
Speaker 2: Spaces as well.
Speaker 1: Do we yet know how this bill might impact athletes
Speaker 1: with DSDs, because right now the Democrats and those who
Speaker 1: are voting against this bill are saying one of the
Speaker 1: worst possible outcomes is genital testing or other violations of
Speaker 1: young girls in order to quote unquote prove their sex
Speaker 1: for participation. Side is saying that's never going to happen.
Speaker 1: We're just gonna use birth certificates. What happens if a
Speaker 1: birth certificate says one thing and either presentation or otherwise
Speaker 1: seems to imply, whether you have the science behind it
Speaker 1: or not, that there are differences in sex.
Speaker 2: How does that work with this bill?
Speaker 4: Oh, that's a really great question. I'll take it like
Speaker 4: in three different parts. So the first is that there
Speaker 4: is no specific mention of athletes with differences of sex development.
Speaker 4: I think the best indication of how this could possibly
Speaker 4: apply be applied is the usage of verbiage genetics at
Speaker 4: birth direct quote right, So, if you're somebody who is
Speaker 4: X Y and you have a difference of sex development
Speaker 4: that would cause you to be assigned female at birth
Speaker 4: or in that case, your genetics at birth would be
Speaker 4: x y the end. So I think that is probably
Speaker 4: the perspective there, though I do not know for sure.
Speaker 3: I would also say.
Speaker 4: That you know, different to the sex development and the
Speaker 4: physiology of those athletes, that's something that we talk about
Speaker 4: at the elite level that is so rarely an issue
Speaker 4: in like seven year old soccer. And again, this bill
Speaker 4: makes no distinction between how those conversations are different and
Speaker 4: how different subsets of athletes could be affected. It's meant
Speaker 4: to be very broad in that sense and also very rigid,
Speaker 4: and that there is no flexibility and I don't mean
Speaker 4: rigid as a pejorative, just that there is no path
Speaker 4: to porkivision.
Speaker 3: There are no exceptions. It's just this is what it is.
Speaker 2: No nuance.
Speaker 1: Yes to your point about if someone was born x Y,
Speaker 1: which is typically male, but assigned to female at birth,
Speaker 1: I don't believe it would say that on their birth
Speaker 1: certificate right that genetic makeup, and oftentimes people with differences
Speaker 1: of sex development aren't aware of it until they're tested
Speaker 1: or potentially something comes out later. So I don't know
Speaker 1: how they would even be able to justify that other than,
Speaker 1: like I said, worst case scenarios where someone is participating
Speaker 1: and allowed and everything is normal and then all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, some parent or otherwise causes a stir as
Speaker 1: was the case with folks like Castor Semenya, who was
Speaker 1: a sis woman, raised a woman, all that and then
Speaker 1: the differences of sex development were what resulted in, you know,
Speaker 1: all of the trauma around her ability to participate.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's and that was the second point
Speaker 4: that I was going to make is that the reality
Speaker 4: is that when you draw a line in the sand,
Speaker 4: you draw a boundary, you have to police the boundary.
Speaker 3: And that's one thing that has been a hallmark.
Speaker 4: Of legislation that has passed at the state level across
Speaker 4: the country is there's usually some sort of a mechanism
Speaker 4: for challenging and then resolving a dispute over.
Speaker 3: A student's gender or sex.
Speaker 4: And ultimately, if your sex is challenged, you have to
Speaker 4: prove that you are who you said you are in
Speaker 4: some way, and there are some states that allow you
Speaker 4: to modify your birth certificate.
Speaker 3: Although what we are seeing is in tandem.
Speaker 4: With the legislation that effects transgender athletes, we're also seeing
Speaker 4: legislation that affects a variety of life for transgender people,
Speaker 4: whether we're talking about youth access to healthcare, or talk
Speaker 4: about access to documents and document changes to match your
Speaker 4: documents with your lived experience, your lived identity, and as
Speaker 4: that becomes continuously fraud and you and people lose access
Speaker 4: to change their documents, becomes a good point whereas you
Speaker 4: may not be able to show a birth certificate that's
Speaker 4: been amended anyway. But also even if there is evidence
Speaker 4: of you being a transgender person anywhere like that could
Speaker 4: be surfaced. And that is something that we're also seeing
Speaker 4: in terms of athletes who are currently competing under state
Speaker 4: law and policy that allows them to compete and participate
Speaker 4: in girls' sports in you know, for a variety of
Speaker 4: sports at their levels, and they are being outed and
Speaker 4: so it's very complicated and it's creating a lot of
Speaker 4: fear among transgender youth and their families. But from a
Speaker 4: broad level in terms of drawing that line and then
Speaker 4: have a and then requiring proof of some kind, you know,
Speaker 4: there's a lot of speculator about what that proof could be.
Speaker 4: And of course proponents for this legislation would say it's
Speaker 4: very simple, show your birth certificate, but it can be
Speaker 4: more complicated than that. And also we have seen examples
Speaker 4: in other states where this legislation has passed already, where
Speaker 4: people are accused of being trans and are not. And
Speaker 4: there's also, you know, the trauma of that in terms
Speaker 4: of sticking out looking different and then being accused of
Speaker 4: being this big, bad boogeyman who shouldn't be.
Speaker 3: Legally able to compete where you're competing.
Speaker 4: So there's just a lot going on in terms of
Speaker 4: how these things are going to be resolved, and frankly,
Speaker 4: a lot of it is speculative, but that doesn't mean
Speaker 4: that a lot of the questions being raised aren't worthy questions.
Speaker 1: The bill was passed in the House with a vote
Speaker 1: of two eighteen to two six. Two Democrats voted in favor,
Speaker 1: one Democrat voted present. It's expected and next be taken
Speaker 1: up to the Senate. Are folks expecting similar support from
Speaker 1: the bill in the GOP controlled Senate?
Speaker 3: Oh, you know, that's a really good question. I do
Speaker 3: not know.
Speaker 4: I spoke with someone today who is for this legislation.
Speaker 4: Who is hopeful that it's going to pass in the Senate,
Speaker 4: it would require seven votes to break a filibuster. Candidly,
Speaker 4: I do not know if there's seven votes for it.
Speaker 4: As a reporter, you know, I'm a sports journalist, and
Speaker 4: all of a sudden, I'm like, Oh, do I have
Speaker 4: to be a politics journalist?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 2: Yeah? You do? You do? We expect that of you, Katie.
Speaker 1: I will say that from what I read, it's not
Speaker 1: clear if it will pass because to your point, at
Speaker 1: least seven Democrats would have to vote with the Republican
Speaker 1: side to hit the sixty vote threshold, and that's sort
Speaker 1: of an uphill battle according to some who believe it
Speaker 1: might be tough to pass.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know, who knows.
Speaker 3: I think, right, it's certainly an open question.
Speaker 4: There's a nondero chance that it passes, you know, and
Speaker 4: for those who are not in favor of this legislation,
Speaker 4: that's very worrying. There have been other times where there's
Speaker 4: been where like the House passed a similar bill last year,
Speaker 4: and there have been other times where this legislation has
Speaker 4: been debated, and you know, folks haven't been that worried.
Speaker 4: But I would say that certainly people I talk to
Speaker 4: are concerned right now.
Speaker 1: And sometimes there's movement that could be unexpected. During that
Speaker 1: last session of Congress when they did pass the bill,
Speaker 1: one of the Democrats who voted for it this time
Speaker 1: voted against it then, So changes of opinion, a gradual
Speaker 1: wearing down, changes of language. You just aren't fully certain
Speaker 1: ever until the vote is taken. Let's say it does
Speaker 1: get pasted in the Senate. Let's talk about the actual outcomes.
Speaker 1: So for the last fifty plus years, Title nine was
Speaker 1: supposed to keep schools in compliance for nondiscrimination based on
Speaker 1: the basis of sex. They would receive federal funding if
Speaker 1: they remained in compliance with Title nine. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of great benefits to Title nine. But as we celebrated
Speaker 1: the fifty aeth the anniversary just a couple of years ago,
Speaker 1: what we learned from investigating was that a lot of
Speaker 1: schools are not in compliance and there is not a
Speaker 1: great enforcement mechanism other than suing threatening to suit to
Speaker 1: get schools to comply. Do you have a sense of
Speaker 1: whether this legislation, which runs along the same lines of
Speaker 1: Title nine, would be enforced more seriously or any differently
Speaker 1: than what we've seen with Title nine, which is very hodgepodge.
Speaker 4: You know, I don't know because, like you said, like
Speaker 4: the way that title hios and force is through investigations
Speaker 4: in the Department of Education the Office for Civil Rights.
Speaker 4: You know, those investigations take a very long time. And
Speaker 4: also you know, there are questions about what the makeup
Speaker 4: of the Department of Education is going to be.
Speaker 3: Like moving forward.
Speaker 4: So how this will be enforced is an open question.
Speaker 4: But I have no doubt that certainly for transgender.
Speaker 3: Youths, there will be a chilling effect.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and there already aren't very many transgender kids playing sports,
Speaker 4: certainly from a percentage of how many transgender youths there are,
Speaker 4: you know, they play sports at a much lower rate
Speaker 4: than their's such gender peers. And so in that sense,
Speaker 4: you know, I wonder how what that effect will be.
Speaker 4: The Department of Education has shown a willingness to enforce
Speaker 4: Title nine as it pertains to their interpretation of how
Speaker 4: it applies to transgender youth and well and transgender people
Speaker 4: in schools and in colleges, and you know that could
Speaker 4: also happen again here under this administration. But exactly how
Speaker 4: it will be enforced again, that is an open question
Speaker 4: and that and there isn't really a good enforcement mechanism
Speaker 4: in the text itself.
Speaker 1: One of the evil tricks of bookkeeping for Title nine
Speaker 1: is counting male practice players as women in Title nine
Speaker 1: reporting to try to meet the numbers and reach equality.
Speaker 1: Do we know if this bill would prevent teams, particularly
Speaker 1: college teams, which we know often use male practice players
Speaker 1: from continue to do so.
Speaker 4: Actually explicitly says the text that it would not, that
Speaker 4: it does not say to practice players, which I thought,
Speaker 4: which I thought was interesting. You know, I reported a
Speaker 4: lot on the San Jose State volleyball story earlier this year,
Speaker 4: and there's a lot of discussion about safety, safety for
Speaker 4: women athletes who were getting hit in the face with spikes,
Speaker 4: et cetera, et cetera. And one of the things that
Speaker 4: was brought up to me multiple times was that there
Speaker 4: are you know, men who practice with you know, volleyball
Speaker 4: players at Power five conferences, and you know, I know
Speaker 4: somebody who was a power who was a practice player
Speaker 4: for the Ukon women's basketball team, et cetera. It's a
Speaker 4: very common practice among women's sports. So I thought that
Speaker 4: was an interesting note, Like there wasn't very much well.
Speaker 1: Of course, the practice players are able to at all
Speaker 1: times being complete control of their bodies and the effort
Speaker 1: that they're putting in solely there to help and never
Speaker 1: putting anyone at risk. Unlike in competition. This sounds more
Speaker 1: like the protection of boys and men in sports. Ec Well,
Speaker 1: we want to make sure we don't mess with the
Speaker 1: practice players who are guys.
Speaker 4: Well you said that, I have no comment.
Speaker 2: Well, I get to editorialize, Katie.
Speaker 1: You have to be the one who speaks along the
Speaker 1: lines of exactly what it says to the bills, and
Speaker 1: I get to just say whatever the fuck I want
Speaker 1: about this shit. Well.
Speaker 4: I thought what was interesting though, is like, when we've
Speaker 4: been talking about this, well, how does this apply or
Speaker 4: like did they consider this like and my answers are like, well,
Speaker 4: this wasn't enumerated in the text, this wasn't explicitly said,
Speaker 4: but the practice players were. So I thought that was
Speaker 4: a really interesting thing that somebody said, Okay, but wait,
Speaker 4: we still need to practice with the guys, so please
Speaker 4: put that in the text.
Speaker 2: And I just thought that was so true. There.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like it's a very grandular understanding of how
Speaker 4: women train at the collegiate level. So I just I
Speaker 4: don't know, I thought that was noteworthy and just really fascinating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like somebody who actually knows how it goes down
Speaker 1: was in there clearing space for that, while in many
Speaker 1: ways ignoring some of the other realities of how this
Speaker 1: works in order to push forward the rest of the legislation.
Speaker 4: Or at least leaving other questions completely unanswered.
Speaker 3: Right Like, that is like one answer.
Speaker 4: That's one question that is specifically answered, and others just
Speaker 4: or not.
Speaker 1: What are some of the potential unintended consequences that might
Speaker 1: result from the passing of this bill?
Speaker 4: Well, like I said, I think the Yeah, there's policing
Speaker 4: of a boundary that's set, and that is likely just
Speaker 4: statistically to not only affect transgender athletes. You know, it's
Speaker 4: a very common experience if you play girls of women's
Speaker 4: sports to be accused of being a man, to be
Speaker 4: accused of being queer, right like, regardless of whether or
Speaker 4: not that is your lived experience, and that is something
Speaker 4: for that is harmful I think for a lot of
Speaker 4: athletes in girls of women's sports in terms of self
Speaker 4: hurt self esteem. For those who are queer, it hurts
Speaker 4: their sense of self because being queer as a negative thing. Right,
Speaker 4: We've seen some of this movie before in that sense,
Speaker 4: and so from an but that also I don't know
Speaker 4: if that's an undin headed consequence, to be honest with you,
Speaker 4: fair but yeah, you know, I just think that the
Speaker 4: the effect of legislation like this that is also really
Speaker 4: cultural and culturally relevant. I don't know that we fully
Speaker 4: know or grapple with like what that actually will be.
Speaker 4: And then I think could very demonstrable effect is that
Speaker 4: a lot of transgender kids are not going to feel
Speaker 4: welcome in sports and may not play even at.
Speaker 3: A higher rate than they already are playing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a couple points on that the idea that, well,
Speaker 1: it says right in there just to use their birth certificate.
Speaker 1: Are we for certain that that's what's going to happen
Speaker 1: at the granular level at every single school in every
Speaker 1: single state, in every single city, as opposed to somebody
Speaker 1: feeling that they take it on themselves or feeling like
Speaker 1: there must be some way to prove quote unquote something right,
Speaker 1: and then it does become an issue of safety and
Speaker 1: risk and violation. I think to your point about what
Speaker 1: this means for both participation at the youth level and
Speaker 1: the feeling of community inclusion. This clearly to me is
Speaker 1: taking an issue that is very binary focused and using
Speaker 1: it as the first step towards major trans rights and
Speaker 1: safety being affected in future policy. Right, if you can
Speaker 1: get people on board being anti trans, fear mongering, scaring people,
Speaker 1: making trans people the big boogeyman, then you can convince
Speaker 1: them later that they also shouldn't be in bathrooms, that
Speaker 1: they also shouldn't have protections for employment, that they also
Speaker 1: shouldn't be allowed to marry.
Speaker 2: Right. I mean it feels like the sports issue is.
Speaker 1: A political cudgel and an easy one to convince people
Speaker 1: of along these lines we've talked about that are often
Speaker 1: not scientifically backed or proven, just so that once you
Speaker 1: get them on the side of demonizing trans people, then
Speaker 1: they'll be further incentivized to pass for future laws and bills.
Speaker 4: I think legislatively at the state level, that is something
Speaker 4: that has been seen in terms of the types of
Speaker 4: legislation that passes of after passing a bill about sports,
Speaker 4: So whether it's access to gender firming care for transgender youth,
Speaker 4: restrictions on access to content that involved queer and trans
Speaker 4: people from like what we're talking about book bans or
Speaker 4: academic restriction in that sense, talking about you know, even
Speaker 4: like in some states there have been banned you know,
Speaker 4: either actual passage of legislation or attempts to past legislation
Speaker 4: that restricts you know, the expression of drag right like,
Speaker 4: So there is a wider suite of legislative priorities that
Speaker 4: expand out from this topic. Although what I will say
Speaker 4: is it's interesting because I think legislatively in some states
Speaker 4: you've seen that, and also my experience on the ground
Speaker 4: talking to people is you know, they really grapple with
Speaker 4: like the sports thing and maybe gender firming healthcare they
Speaker 4: have questions about, but the other stuff isn't necessarily on
Speaker 4: their radar or they don't necessarily associate this the sports
Speaker 4: conversation with the conversation about transgender identity at all. It's
Speaker 4: mostly about to them, Oh, well, if you're a signed
Speaker 4: male at BURR, why would you be allowed to play
Speaker 4: girls sports? That doesn't make sense to me because culturally
Speaker 4: and to a certain degree scientifically, you know, there is
Speaker 4: an imbalance in terms of access and performance when it
Speaker 4: comes to you know, boys and men being typically bigger, faster,
Speaker 4: stronger than girls and women, Now what that means at
Speaker 4: a variety of levels of sport, and whether or not
Speaker 4: that should be applied to intramural and club level sport.
Speaker 3: Like, all of those are.
Speaker 4: Questions, and that are policy questions that I think there's
Speaker 4: a real hunger to grapple with meaningfully from the American public. However,
Speaker 4: in tandem with that, there is a very aggressive legislative
Speaker 4: push to pass restrictive legislation and policy, and that's kind
Speaker 4: of where we've been for the last five years. That
Speaker 4: doesn't have really any kind of room for nuance and
Speaker 4: is very rigid and actually in the United States, the
Speaker 4: legislative efforts are more more restrictive than what we've seen
Speaker 4: from a global elite sport policy perspective, which I think
Speaker 4: is interesting as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about that.
Speaker 1: If we zoom out and look at the larger sports landscape,
Speaker 1: this legislation would be federal policy, which then would apply
Speaker 1: to all the publicly funded schools in the US. How
Speaker 1: does that compare to policy changes we've seen at other
Speaker 1: levels like the Olympics or the World Championships.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so the Olympics in twenty twenty one made a
Speaker 4: change and said each international federation could come up with
Speaker 4: their own policy. They gave them guidelines for what those
Speaker 4: policies maybe should look like and things they should consider,
Speaker 4: and the international federations largely discarded those Frankly, I think
Speaker 4: that's fair to say, and enacted.
Speaker 3: The policies that they wanted to enact.
Speaker 4: And so what we've seen is a number of restrictive
Speaker 4: policies like that is the environment.
Speaker 3: There has not been a policy update.
Speaker 4: From a major federation that is more inclusive in the
Speaker 4: last four or five years, and that those policies like,
Speaker 4: for example, we use swimming which applied. They go out
Speaker 4: of their way to say this applies to elite swimming
Speaker 4: and World aquatics and World Aquatics events, and says that
Speaker 4: if you are a transgender woman you want to be
Speaker 4: eligible for women's category, you are not if you've gone
Speaker 4: through any part of male puberty. And so if you
Speaker 4: began a transition prior to a disost from driven puberty,
Speaker 4: theoretically you could be.
Speaker 3: Eligible for women's category.
Speaker 4: So it's a narrow path, but it's still a path
Speaker 4: that is not the case in any of the states
Speaker 4: that have passed legislation in the United States, and it's
Speaker 4: not the case with HR twenty eight that just passed
Speaker 4: earlier this week, and so I think that's interesting. It's
Speaker 4: a small gap, but it is a gap, and it's
Speaker 4: one that certainly proponents of restrictive legislation and policy in
Speaker 4: the United States are actively working to close.
Speaker 3: They would like to see global.
Speaker 4: Sports policy mirror more what we have from a legislative
Speaker 4: perspective in the United States.
Speaker 2: For sure, it's such a complicated topic.
Speaker 1: There is science, there is politics, there is identity there.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's.
Speaker 1: Something where we under stand now that gender insects are
Speaker 1: not binary, and yet we're trying to fit it into
Speaker 1: a binary mold, which is always going to be complicated.
Speaker 1: But I think what's lost, particularly in a bill like this,
Speaker 1: is the fact that it does apply the exact same
Speaker 1: to collegiate elite athletes as it does to children. And
Speaker 1: it's not even taking into consideration the power of inclusion
Speaker 1: and community and participation in teamwork and everything else. So
Speaker 1: I want to ask you this last thing. When we
Speaker 1: know how much is at stake for the transcommunity, not
Speaker 1: just in terms of what sports related things this might
Speaker 1: apply to, but when it comes to recent and suggested legislation,
Speaker 1: also it might affect basic human rights, medical care, things
Speaker 1: like that. It sometimes feels like the folks advocating for
Speaker 1: the transcommunity aren't willing to fully engage with the questions
Speaker 1: that folks have about fairness and safety, either because they
Speaker 1: don't want to come across as equivocating or not fighting
Speaker 1: hard enough for inclusion, maybe because they're unwilling to discuss
Speaker 1: these issues with folks who are operating in bad faith
Speaker 1: or fear mongering or not using science at all. They
Speaker 1: don't want to get in the ring with someone who
Speaker 1: they know is not going to at a fair fight.
Speaker 2: I understand all of that.
Speaker 1: I struggle at times myself with trying to reconcile where
Speaker 1: I do think there might be genetic benefits to being
Speaker 1: born male at the highest highest levels, while also saying
Speaker 1: there is absolutely no part of me that thinks that
Speaker 1: youth should be restricted from competing and playing. Our desire
Speaker 1: to prioritize winning over humanity is so clear to me
Speaker 1: at the youth levels. How do we or should we
Speaker 1: try to push for more of an effort to have
Speaker 1: those conversations, to be more honest, even about the things
Speaker 1: we don't fully know or that are scientifically unclear to
Speaker 1: offset the efforts of the GOP who are so willing
Speaker 1: to push false narratives and so willing to use salacious,
Speaker 1: fear mongering tactics to try to force people to one side.
Speaker 5: So one of the things I get asked a lot
Speaker 5: is like, what's missing from this conversation, right? And my
Speaker 5: answer to that almost always is, you know, listening, compassion,
Speaker 5: and empathy, And for me, those things are multi way streets.
Speaker 3: And so, you know, if you're somebody who.
Speaker 4: Supports transgender inclusion, I think it's really important to listen
Speaker 4: to those who do not, like what is it that
Speaker 4: they're saying?
Speaker 3: What are their experiences? Why do they feel that way?
Speaker 4: And you know, I think that's something that can be
Speaker 4: really hard to do because so much of this discussion
Speaker 4: and debate, if you want to frame it that way,
Speaker 4: is rooted in our ideas about gender, are conceptions of self,
Speaker 4: our own experiences, and our experiences with the incredibly emotional
Speaker 4: thing that is sports.
Speaker 3: It can be I think.
Speaker 4: Really hard and challenging to hear those criticism and challenges
Speaker 4: to ideas that you may hold, as you know, an
Speaker 4: inclusion activist, that you know, are really core values. And
Speaker 4: I think for folks who are transgender, right, that is,
Speaker 4: you know, even further compounded because at times the challenges
Speaker 4: run folks who favor restrictive policy are to the very
Speaker 4: notion of you know, can transgender people even exist?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 4: And so I think especially for folks who are not
Speaker 4: trans who are in support of inclusive policy, you know,
Speaker 4: it's important to kunderstand in that space if that's something
Speaker 4: that you believe in, you to have those harder conversations
Speaker 4: and in support of transgender people with whom you are allied.
Speaker 3: And I think the same is true for folks who
Speaker 3: are on the.
Speaker 4: Fence, who you know, aren't sure, who have heard different ideas,
Speaker 4: or who are in favor of restrictive policy for a
Speaker 4: variety of reasons. I think it's incredibly important to hear
Speaker 4: the fears of trans people, to engage with the transgender
Speaker 4: people about their life experiences and who they are, and
Speaker 4: to consider not just the impacts of legislation on your
Speaker 4: own family or on you know, inclusive policy on you know,
Speaker 4: your daughters as often something that I hear, but also
Speaker 4: consider the effects of restrictive policy on young transgender people.
Speaker 3: And that doesn't and I'm not saying that.
Speaker 4: In an effort to get anybody to change their minds.
Speaker 4: I just think there's such a gap where folks are
Speaker 4: not talking, are not listening, and are not really hearing
Speaker 4: the perspectives of, you know, those who disagree with them.
Speaker 4: And that's where I have felt. I have felt that
Speaker 4: so acutely on this issue over time, as somebody who
Speaker 4: sits in the space as a journalist where it is
Speaker 4: my job to listen to people from a variety of perspectives,
Speaker 4: and I take that very seriously. But then who also
Speaker 4: has had like my appearance, politicized my own identity and
Speaker 4: politicized and it has experienced that, who's experienced an elevated
Speaker 4: level of scrutiny on this issue. I think that gives
Speaker 4: me a lot of empathy with you know, folks, you
Speaker 4: know within the trans community who are trying to play
Speaker 4: sports and then suddenly are in the middle of a firestorm.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: So, like, it's very COMPLI katid, it's very nuanced, and
Speaker 4: I think we would all do better if we meaningfully engaged, yeah,
Speaker 4: with those who with a different opinion than us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it's only made worse by the
Speaker 1: fact that so much of our communication is now done
Speaker 1: via the Internet and lobbing insults and facts or not
Speaker 1: facts back and forth, as opposed to traditional conversation where
Speaker 1: you are seeking to understand what the other person is
Speaker 1: saying in order to engage back and forth.
Speaker 2: In the way we communicate now.
Speaker 1: It really allows for some of the worst things to
Speaker 1: come out and for us to be unwilling to hear
Speaker 1: the other side and placing onto them opinions or beliefs
Speaker 1: that they might not even have based solely on their
Speaker 1: reticence to agree with something or their pursuit of inclusion
Speaker 1: or whatever it is. Katie, we always learn a ton
Speaker 1: from you. We know you're super busy in the response
Speaker 1: to all of this, so thanks so much for making
Speaker 1: time for it.
Speaker 3: Oh thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Thanks to Katie for taking the time we got to
Speaker 1: take another break. See on the other side. Welcome back, slices.
Speaker 1: We love that you're listening, but we want you to
Speaker 1: get in the game every day too. So here's our
Speaker 1: good gameplay of the day by Katie's book. It's called
Speaker 1: fair Play. How Sports Shape the Gender Debates. We'll link
Speaker 1: to it in our show notes, or you could pick
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Speaker 1: Alex while you're at the bookstore, you could move the display.
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Speaker 1: Oh and keep sending us picks of your Unrivaled team
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Speaker 1: It's really easy watch learning that someone else also crunch
Speaker 1: the numbers to determine the Gayest Unrivaled club. Rating ten
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Speaker 1: friend of the show Frankie de Lacreta, who also did
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Speaker 1: the Laces Basketball Club coming in at number one with
Speaker 1: five out of six players. We love to see it, and,
Speaker 1: as Frankie writes, quote, this ratio means that gay people
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