WEBVTT - Engaging Meaningfully with Katie Barnes 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.160 Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're writing 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:06.240 letters to our representatives telling them all the ways they 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:09.920 actually can support girls and women in sports. It's Thursday, 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:12.200 January sixteenth that on today's show, we'll be talking to 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:15.120 ESPN feature writer Katie Barnes about the news that House 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:20.000 Republicans have passed a bill barring trans athletes from women's sports. Plus, 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:22.680 it pays to be a Husky its core season in 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:26.479 the w and we offer up a little bookstore redecorating advice. 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:36.720 It's all coming up right after this welcome back slices. 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:41.120 Here's what you need to know today. The US House 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:44.000 of Representatives on Tuesday passed a bill that would prohibit 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:47.080 transgender girls and women from competing on school athletic teams 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:49.080 that are designated for female students. 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:50.599 If the Senate approves the. 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:52.839 Bill and it goes on to become law, schools that 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:55.920 allow trans girls or women to compete could lose federal funding. 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:58.240 We're going to dive deep into this news with today's 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:01.360 guest Katie Barnes later in the show. College Hoops News, 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:04.400 the Yukon Huskies are the first public women's college program 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:07.959 to report more than three million dollars in annual ticket sales. 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:11.039 That number three point twenty five million, to be exact, 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:13.400 was disclosed on Wednesday as part of the school's most 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:18.000 recent NCAA financial reporting. Per Sportico, Yukon women's basketball generated 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:21.280 more revenue than that reported by seventy five public men's 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:23.920 teams the prior year. We'll link to the full Sportico 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:26.440 report in our show Notes to Soccer. 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:27.399 Former captain of. 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:29.800 The Kansas City Current Desire Scott is coming out of 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:32.639 her a very brief retirement to join the Ottawa Rapid, 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:35.880 one of the inaugural six clubs in the Northern Super League, 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:39.160 Canada's new pro soccer league. Scott is a four time 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:41.959 Olympian for the Canadian national team, winning Golden Tokyo and 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:44.760 bronze medals at the twenty twelve London and twenty sixteen 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:49.000 Rio Games. All six NSL rosters are starting to fill out. 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:52.440 Among the highlights, longtime Canadian goalie Aaron McLeod has signed 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:55.560 with the Halifax Tides, and American Nikki Stanton, who most 0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:58.200 recently played for the NWSL Seattle Rain, has signed to 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:03.280 Vancouver Rise FC. Inaugural NSL season gets underway, in April 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:06.960 to the WNBA. The Seattle Storm have cored Gabby Williams, 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:09.359 who played twelve games for the franchise after helping lead 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:11.959 France to a silver medal at last year's Paras Olympics. 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:13.520 The court designation. 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:16.440 Means that teams gain the exclusive negotiating rights for players 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:19.760 who are otherwise set to become free agents. In other words, 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:22.840 Williams isn't guaranteed to stay with the Storm, but at 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:24.880 the very least she'll be offered a one year super 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:27.880 max contract, currently worth two hundred and forty nine thou 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:30.800 two hundred and forty four bucks. Each WNBA team has 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:34.880 until January twentieth to extend core designations. Other players who 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:37.920 have already received offers include Las Vegas Kelsey Plum, New 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:41.480 York's Brianna Stewart, and Dallas's Sattuo Sabily, though Sably is 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:44.680 expected to negotiate a trade to another team after announcing 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:47.600 at Unrivaled Pressers she's played her last. 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:48.920 Game for Dallas. 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:52.600 To tennis and the Australian Open, Naomi Osaka is into 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:56.280 the third round after defeating world number twenty Carolina Mouhova 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.200 in marks Osaka's first time advancing to the third round 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:02.160 of any Grant's line in three years. Osaka, a two 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:06.000 time Australian Open champ, will face Belinda Bencicic. While Osaka's 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:08.240 been successful on the court, it's been a very chaotic 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:10.560 couple of weeks for the twenty seven year old off it. 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:13.480 Last week, she announced that her relationship with longtime partner 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:16.640 Rapper Corde had ended. They started dating in twenty nineteen 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:18.480 and share a daughter, Shi, who. 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:19.200 Is one and a half. 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:22.800 Osaka also told reporters in Melbourne that the Los Angeles 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:26.400 wildfires made it within three blocks of her home, causing 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:28.560 her to ask someone back home to retrieve her daughter's 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:31.799 birth certificate in case the house was lost in the wildfires. 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:35.160 To pro volleyball, love isn't the only game in town. 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:38.080 The Pro Volleyball Federation just started its second season with 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.080 eight teams around the country, and last week the Omaha 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:46.400 Supernovas reset the US pro Volleyball attendance record when thirteen thousy, 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:49.600 four hundred and eighty six people crammed into the Chi 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:52.240 Health Center in downtown Omaha to see the team win 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:54.880 a five set thriller over the Atlanta Vibe. There are 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:58.360 six PVF teams in action tonight, beginning with the Indie 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:01.640 Ignite taken on Grand Rapids and the Columbus Fury at 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:04.720 the Atlanta Vibe, both at seven pm Eastern. Will link 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:06.960 to the full game schedule and tune in info in 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:07.720 our show notes. 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:12.400 We got to take a quick break. When we come back. 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:15.640 Everything you need to know about the very inaccurately named 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:18.880 Protection of Women and Girls in Sports Act with Katie. 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:28.640 Barnes joining us now. 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:31.480 They're an award winning journalists, producer, and author covering the 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:34.080 intersection of sports and gender. Their work has appeared across 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:37.599 multiple ESPN platforms, including ESPN dot Com, Sports Center, Outside 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:39.480 the Lines, and the ESPN Daily Podcast. 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:41.680 They're a three time GLAD nominee, and we're. 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:43.680 Named the twenty seventeen Journalist of the Year by the 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:47.600 Association of LGBTQ Journalists. Their book Fair Play, How Sports 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:50.040 Shape the Gender Debates was on Time Magazine's list of 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:53.440 one hundred must read books of twenty twenty three. They 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:55.839 love Bourbon and Disneyland, and they've been to the best 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:58.280 women's sports bar in Chicago more times than I have. 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:01.760 I'm working on it, Katie Barnes what's up, Katie? 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:02.840 Yo? What's up? 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:05.200 What an intro? I feel so cool? Thank you? 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:07.920 Well, I mean you are cool. Fun fact. 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:10.200 Once for a gift, I asked for two books, both 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:12.880 of them named fair Play. I'm sure you recognize that 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:15.279 there's another book also named fair Play that sometimes people 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:16.039 mistake for yours. 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:19.000 Both fantastic books. I got them both for the same birthday. 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:21.200 I first of all love it. Second of all, yes, 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:22.000 I do know that. 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:25.520 They're about wildly different things. Yeah, both about gender. So 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:29.360 that's kind of interesting and both fascinating. Thanks for making 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:30.440 time for us last minute. 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:32.680 You are here today to help us make sense of 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:36.400 the we believe very poorly named Protection of Women and 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:39.000 Girls in Sports Act bill that the House just voted 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:41.360 to pass on Tuesday. So can you sort of break 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:43.360 down what the bill intends to do? 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:47.960 Yeah, So, what the bill does is it builds on 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:53.039 legislation that has passed across the country that bars trench 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:55.080 into girls and women from participating in girls and women's 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:59.400 sports at the school in collegiate levels. What is different, however, 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:03.520 about the piece of legislation is actually a men's Title 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:06.280 nine to define sex as being determined by a reproductive 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:09.520 biology and genetics at birth direct quote, and then ties 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:13.320 federal funding to the issue of a transgender girls and 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:15.840 women participating girls women's sports by basically saying that you'd 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.920 be out of compliance with Title nine if any school 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:24.400 enacted such a policy. So it is incredibly broad in 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:27.840 terms of how far it reaches, but it's also very 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:31.920 specific in that it is at the school level because 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:35.760 it's about federal funding and Title nine and not about 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:40.200 how a state is defining sex or about who's eligible 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:43.960 for school sports. It's different and interesting in that regard 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:45.719 from a policy perspective. 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:50.120 And it doesn't seek different policies for those levels of education. Right, 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:53.400 So the same policy would apply to a third grader 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:54.760 as a collegiate athlete. 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:57.920 Yeah, I think there's some question about that, but as 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:00.640 it's written, that is certainly what it looks like, in 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:04.400 that there is no differentiation in the text or any 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:09.080 enumeration of how this would be applied across different school categories. 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:14.240 It basically says federal funding for institutions that you receive it, 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:17.400 which is pretty much every school in the country, and 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:20.000 as we know, Title nine, although we often talk about 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:23.320 it in a collegiate sense and in a women's sports sense. 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:27.600 Title nine applied, it's an equal access education law, so 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:32.280 it applies to any school receiving federal funding, which includes 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:33.040 private schools. 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:36.200 It includes elementary schools, middle schools. 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:39.720 And because there is no differentiation at this point as 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:43.160 it's written, that is certainly the interpretation that a lot 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:44.000 of people have of it. 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:48.360 Yeah, the amendment to the federal law, the Title nine law, 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:50.760 is an interesting one because, as to your point, it 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:53.720 requires that sex will be recognized solely on a person's 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:58.640 reproductive biology and genetics at birth for determining compliance. Those 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:02.640 who are in support of this bill, many of whom 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:05.520 seem to believe that that is the only way to 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:09.600 acknowledge gender, then don't really believe it to be an amendment. 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:12.000 They believe it to be a reinforcement of Title nine, 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:14.840 because their insistence is that the only gender is that 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:20.280 associated with your reproductive biology, whereas Title nine, without saying 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:24.760 so much, has sort of thus far allowed for gender 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:28.200 identity to dictate in many ways. 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:30.120 Your participation is that accurate? 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:33.160 Yeah, I mean, I think in general, the core of 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:39.640 the legal dispute around transgender students and transgender athletes participating 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:44.040 in school sports is about how Title nine should be applied. 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:48.040 And also, you know, litigating existing case law about sex 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:52.440 based discrimination. So you have folks who are arguing in 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:56.320 favor of inclusive policy in schools and inclusive policy for 0:08:56.400 --> 0:08:58.800 transgender student athletes at. 0:08:58.640 --> 0:08:59.760 The school sports level. 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:03.559 Mostly you know, looking at this case law that has 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:06.920 been built that goes from this case. It's like Price 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:10.400 Waterhouse be Hopkins from nineteen eighty nine up to Bosstoc, 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:13.760 which is a Title seven ruling about employment discrimination just 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:16.600 from a few years ago, and building their case on 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:21.000 how sex based discrimination applies to sex stereotypes and therefore 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.280 would apply to gender identity, et cetera. 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:26.040 Like, it's a very clear line of thinking in that regard. 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:30.240 And for those who are in favor of restrictive policy 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:34.320 for transgender students and athletes, they argue that Title nine 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:38.120 does not need any additional discussion, right, Like it says 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:39.160 on the basis. 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:40.720 Of sex is fixed and immutable. 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:44.200 The end is what as opposed to gender right, right, 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:48.840 And so the interpretation of these words is core to 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:52.440 all of the legal proceedings that are happening across the 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:56.400 country in terms of challenging the already existing legislation at 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:59.120 the state level as well as you know, the few 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:02.559 Title nine cases specifically that have been litigated as they 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:06.079 pertain to transgender students and schools as well as transgender athletes. 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:08.880 In my brain, I'm doing this calculation of, Oh, it 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:12.120 feels like it would it would be more jarring to 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:15.800 convince people to change existing Title nine law. So in 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:19.760 order to soften that blow, you say you're not actually 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:22.480 changing anything. It's very explicit in what it says about sex. 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:26.480 On the other hand, our government and the people in 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:30.320 charge are rapidly changing, and I wonder if there is 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:33.079 much pushback to the idea of changing Title nine, or 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:35.360 if a lot of the people in Congress and the 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:39.839 Senate actually believe that Title nine is a law whose 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:43.319 strength should be weakened, is a law whose enforcement should 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:48.480 continue to be not properly enforced. Because we saw with 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:50.680 like Betsy de Vas and some others in the previous 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:54.720 Trump administration, there was certainly what felt like a desire. 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:56.640 To take some of the teeth out of Title nine. 0:10:57.600 --> 0:10:59.880 Well, it's interesting in terms of, you know, taking some 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.199 the teeth out of Title nine. It's actually in fascinating 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.840 to me because you know, under the first Trump administration, 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:09.560 you know, Betsy Devas in the later years and the 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:12.880 Department of Education, you know, really weabinized Title nine specifically 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:16.280 against transgender athletes and policy as it pertains to transgender 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:19.520 athletes holding up funding in the state of Connecticut for 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:25.400 a couple, like for a completely non related magnet program 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:29.199 in New Haven. Eventually that funding was granted, but that 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:32.880 did happen, and it was specifically about transgender inclusive policy 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:36.119 in the state, as well as forcing Franklin Pierce University 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:40.040 to change its policy that allowed for cc Telford to 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:42.960 compete on its team and then win a national championship 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:47.160 in twenty nineteen in Division two hurdles and on this category. 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:50.520 Yeah, I think I'm thinking of Betsy Devas trying to 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:53.880 use Title nine in issues of sexual assault. 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:56.400 Yes, right, so there was like a role back there 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:58.480 and then a weaponization in other spaces. 0:11:58.600 --> 0:11:59.120 Interesting. 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:03.079 But I think what's fascinating about some of this conversation 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:05.840 is that for a lot of the general public, transgender 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:10.480 athletes as an idea and as an issue really came 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:14.599 to the public consciousness around like really with Leah Thomas. 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:16.040 In twenty twenty one and twenty twenty two. 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:21.240 But this topic had been a legal football for years 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:25.720 before that, going back to the Obama administration sending out, 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:30.479 you know, basically formal guidance around how to treat transgender 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:34.560 students in schools in twenty sixteen and saying that transgender 0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:37.320 youth should be affirmed in this in these ways, and 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:41.200 twenty three states sued the Obama administration over the implementation 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:43.400 of that guidance and it never went into full effect. 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:46.360 And then you have the first Trump administration comes in. 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:48.680 One of the first things they do is rescind that 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:52.439 guidance and so like, this is something that has been 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:55.640 part of a back and forth for years pre dating 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.040 I think with the public really began to become aware 0:12:58.080 --> 0:12:58.320 of it. 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:02.840 One of the things that I'm curious about, if the 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:09.080 desire is to make all participation coincide with reproductive biology 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:12.800 and genetics at birth, there are a lot of politicians 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:15.880 who are all too eager to conflate transgender athletes and 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:20.080 athletes with DSDs so differences in sex development, and also 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:24.320 even cisgender women who maybe just present as more masks 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:27.920 or are physically strong or tall or bigger, all those 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:30.120 things that we hear about the worst case scenarios where 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:32.520 parents are yelling at athletes on the field that's a 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:36.160 boy without any proof, without any reason other than this 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:38.480 now desire to sort of take all of the anti 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:40.120 trans rhetoric and apply it in other. 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:40.760 Spaces as well. 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:43.920 Do we yet know how this bill might impact athletes 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:47.160 with DSDs, because right now the Democrats and those who 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:49.040 are voting against this bill are saying one of the 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:54.720 worst possible outcomes is genital testing or other violations of 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:57.760 young girls in order to quote unquote prove their sex 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:01.360 for participation. Side is saying that's never going to happen. 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:04.280 We're just gonna use birth certificates. What happens if a 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:08.600 birth certificate says one thing and either presentation or otherwise 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:11.520 seems to imply, whether you have the science behind it 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.120 or not, that there are differences in sex. 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:16.439 How does that work with this bill? 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:19.440 Oh, that's a really great question. I'll take it like 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:22.680 in three different parts. So the first is that there 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:26.040 is no specific mention of athletes with differences of sex development. 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:31.080 I think the best indication of how this could possibly 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:35.040 apply be applied is the usage of verbiage genetics at 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:38.360 birth direct quote right, So, if you're somebody who is 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:40.760 X Y and you have a difference of sex development 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:42.840 that would cause you to be assigned female at birth 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:46.720 or in that case, your genetics at birth would be 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:50.120 x y the end. So I think that is probably 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:52.400 the perspective there, though I do not know for sure. 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:53.840 I would also say. 0:14:53.680 --> 0:14:55.920 That you know, different to the sex development and the 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:58.800 physiology of those athletes, that's something that we talk about 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:01.520 at the elite level that is so rarely an issue 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:04.400 in like seven year old soccer. And again, this bill 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:09.840 makes no distinction between how those conversations are different and 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:15.160 how different subsets of athletes could be affected. It's meant 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:18.480 to be very broad in that sense and also very rigid, 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:21.800 and that there is no flexibility and I don't mean 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:24.840 rigid as a pejorative, just that there is no path 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:25.480 to porkivision. 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:27.880 There are no exceptions. It's just this is what it is. 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:29.280 No nuance. 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:32.720 Yes to your point about if someone was born x Y, 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:35.600 which is typically male, but assigned to female at birth, 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:37.320 I don't believe it would say that on their birth 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:41.000 certificate right that genetic makeup, and oftentimes people with differences 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:44.760 of sex development aren't aware of it until they're tested 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:47.720 or potentially something comes out later. So I don't know 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:51.000 how they would even be able to justify that other than, 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:54.640 like I said, worst case scenarios where someone is participating 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:56.520 and allowed and everything is normal and then all of 0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:59.800 a sudden, some parent or otherwise causes a stir as 0:15:59.880 --> 0:16:02.440 was the case with folks like Castor Semenya, who was 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:05.120 a sis woman, raised a woman, all that and then 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:08.640 the differences of sex development were what resulted in, you know, 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:11.360 all of the trauma around her ability to participate. 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:13.880 Yeah, I think that's and that was the second point 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:16.960 that I was going to make is that the reality 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:18.920 is that when you draw a line in the sand, 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:20.800 you draw a boundary, you have to police the boundary. 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:24.560 And that's one thing that has been a hallmark. 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:26.640 Of legislation that has passed at the state level across 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:29.440 the country is there's usually some sort of a mechanism 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.760 for challenging and then resolving a dispute over. 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:34.360 A student's gender or sex. 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:38.280 And ultimately, if your sex is challenged, you have to 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:40.840 prove that you are who you said you are in 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:44.280 some way, and there are some states that allow you 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:45.640 to modify your birth certificate. 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:49.040 Although what we are seeing is in tandem. 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:51.800 With the legislation that effects transgender athletes, we're also seeing 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:56.880 legislation that affects a variety of life for transgender people, 0:16:56.920 --> 0:16:59.920 whether we're talking about youth access to healthcare, or talk 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:04.000 about access to documents and document changes to match your 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:08.960 documents with your lived experience, your lived identity, and as 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:13.080 that becomes continuously fraud and you and people lose access 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:15.560 to change their documents, becomes a good point whereas you 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:17.840 may not be able to show a birth certificate that's 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:22.520 been amended anyway. But also even if there is evidence 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:27.280 of you being a transgender person anywhere like that could 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:29.520 be surfaced. And that is something that we're also seeing 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:34.560 in terms of athletes who are currently competing under state 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:38.000 law and policy that allows them to compete and participate 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:41.280 in girls' sports in you know, for a variety of 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:45.679 sports at their levels, and they are being outed and 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:49.320 so it's very complicated and it's creating a lot of 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:53.399 fear among transgender youth and their families. But from a 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:55.960 broad level in terms of drawing that line and then 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:59.159 have a and then requiring proof of some kind, you know, 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:01.720 there's a lot of speculator about what that proof could be. 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:05.040 And of course proponents for this legislation would say it's 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:07.800 very simple, show your birth certificate, but it can be 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:11.639 more complicated than that. And also we have seen examples 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:16.320 in other states where this legislation has passed already, where 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:20.720 people are accused of being trans and are not. And 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:25.240 there's also, you know, the trauma of that in terms 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:29.040 of sticking out looking different and then being accused of 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:33.200 being this big, bad boogeyman who shouldn't be. 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:35.200 Legally able to compete where you're competing. 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:38.800 So there's just a lot going on in terms of 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:41.359 how these things are going to be resolved, and frankly, 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:44.320 a lot of it is speculative, but that doesn't mean 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:46.920 that a lot of the questions being raised aren't worthy questions. 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:49.280 The bill was passed in the House with a vote 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:52.160 of two eighteen to two six. Two Democrats voted in favor, 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:55.240 one Democrat voted present. It's expected and next be taken 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:57.960 up to the Senate. Are folks expecting similar support from 0:18:57.960 --> 0:18:59.879 the bill in the GOP controlled Senate? 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:02.080 Oh, you know, that's a really good question. I do 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:02.479 not know. 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:07.160 I spoke with someone today who is for this legislation. 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:10.359 Who is hopeful that it's going to pass in the Senate, 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:15.280 it would require seven votes to break a filibuster. Candidly, 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:16.880 I do not know if there's seven votes for it. 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:20.840 As a reporter, you know, I'm a sports journalist, and 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:23.119 all of a sudden, I'm like, Oh, do I have 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:24.320 to be a politics journalist? 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:24.480 Now? 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:26.840 Yeah? You do? You do? We expect that of you, Katie. 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:29.399 I will say that from what I read, it's not 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:31.919 clear if it will pass because to your point, at 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:34.520 least seven Democrats would have to vote with the Republican 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:38.760 side to hit the sixty vote threshold, and that's sort 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:41.840 of an uphill battle according to some who believe it 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:42.720 might be tough to pass. 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:44.440 Yeah, but you know, who knows. 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:46.919 I think, right, it's certainly an open question. 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:51.600 There's a nondero chance that it passes, you know, and 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:54.680 for those who are not in favor of this legislation, 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:58.240 that's very worrying. There have been other times where there's 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:01.800 been where like the House passed a similar bill last year, 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:05.679 and there have been other times where this legislation has 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:10.919 been debated, and you know, folks haven't been that worried. 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:12.960 But I would say that certainly people I talk to 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:14.960 are concerned right now. 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:18.040 And sometimes there's movement that could be unexpected. During that 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:20.040 last session of Congress when they did pass the bill, 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:22.000 one of the Democrats who voted for it this time 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:25.719 voted against it then, So changes of opinion, a gradual 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:28.800 wearing down, changes of language. You just aren't fully certain 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:31.880 ever until the vote is taken. Let's say it does 0:20:32.080 --> 0:20:35.360 get pasted in the Senate. Let's talk about the actual outcomes. 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:37.520 So for the last fifty plus years, Title nine was 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:42.800 supposed to keep schools in compliance for nondiscrimination based on 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:45.399 the basis of sex. They would receive federal funding if 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:47.840 they remained in compliance with Title nine. There's a lot 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:49.920 of great benefits to Title nine. But as we celebrated 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:51.920 the fifty aeth the anniversary just a couple of years ago, 0:20:52.200 --> 0:20:54.480 what we learned from investigating was that a lot of 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:57.119 schools are not in compliance and there is not a 0:20:57.160 --> 0:21:01.080 great enforcement mechanism other than suing threatening to suit to 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:03.119