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Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're writing

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Speaker 1: letters to our representatives telling them all the ways they

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Speaker 1: actually can support girls and women in sports. It's Thursday,

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Speaker 1: January sixteenth that on today's show, we'll be talking to

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Speaker 1: ESPN feature writer Katie Barnes about the news that House

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Speaker 1: Republicans have passed a bill barring trans athletes from women's sports. Plus,

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Speaker 1: it pays to be a Husky its core season in

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Speaker 1: the w and we offer up a little bookstore redecorating advice.

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Speaker 1: It's all coming up right after this welcome back slices.

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Speaker 1: Here's what you need to know today. The US House

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Speaker 1: of Representatives on Tuesday passed a bill that would prohibit

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Speaker 1: transgender girls and women from competing on school athletic teams

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Speaker 1: that are designated for female students.

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Speaker 2: If the Senate approves the.

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Speaker 1: Bill and it goes on to become law, schools that

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Speaker 1: allow trans girls or women to compete could lose federal funding.

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Speaker 1: We're going to dive deep into this news with today's

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Speaker 1: guest Katie Barnes later in the show. College Hoops News,

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Speaker 1: the Yukon Huskies are the first public women's college program

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Speaker 1: to report more than three million dollars in annual ticket sales.

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Speaker 1: That number three point twenty five million, to be exact,

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Speaker 1: was disclosed on Wednesday as part of the school's most

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Speaker 1: recent NCAA financial reporting. Per Sportico, Yukon women's basketball generated

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Speaker 1: more revenue than that reported by seventy five public men's

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Speaker 1: teams the prior year. We'll link to the full Sportico

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Speaker 1: report in our show Notes to Soccer.

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Speaker 2: Former captain of.

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Speaker 1: The Kansas City Current Desire Scott is coming out of

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Speaker 1: her a very brief retirement to join the Ottawa Rapid,

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Speaker 1: one of the inaugural six clubs in the Northern Super League,

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Speaker 1: Canada's new pro soccer league. Scott is a four time

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Speaker 1: Olympian for the Canadian national team, winning Golden Tokyo and

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Speaker 1: bronze medals at the twenty twelve London and twenty sixteen

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Speaker 1: Rio Games. All six NSL rosters are starting to fill out.

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Speaker 1: Among the highlights, longtime Canadian goalie Aaron McLeod has signed

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Speaker 1: with the Halifax Tides, and American Nikki Stanton, who most

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Speaker 1: recently played for the NWSL Seattle Rain, has signed to

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Speaker 1: Vancouver Rise FC. Inaugural NSL season gets underway, in April

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Speaker 1: to the WNBA. The Seattle Storm have cored Gabby Williams,

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Speaker 1: who played twelve games for the franchise after helping lead

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Speaker 1: France to a silver medal at last year's Paras Olympics.

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Speaker 2: The court designation.

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Speaker 1: Means that teams gain the exclusive negotiating rights for players

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Speaker 1: who are otherwise set to become free agents. In other words,

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Speaker 1: Williams isn't guaranteed to stay with the Storm, but at

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Speaker 1: the very least she'll be offered a one year super

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Speaker 1: max contract, currently worth two hundred and forty nine thou

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Speaker 1: two hundred and forty four bucks. Each WNBA team has

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Speaker 1: until January twentieth to extend core designations. Other players who

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Speaker 1: have already received offers include Las Vegas Kelsey Plum, New

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Speaker 1: York's Brianna Stewart, and Dallas's Sattuo Sabily, though Sably is

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Speaker 1: expected to negotiate a trade to another team after announcing

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Speaker 1: at Unrivaled Pressers she's played her last.

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Speaker 2: Game for Dallas.

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Speaker 1: To tennis and the Australian Open, Naomi Osaka is into

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Speaker 1: the third round after defeating world number twenty Carolina Mouhova

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Speaker 1: in marks Osaka's first time advancing to the third round

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Speaker 1: of any Grant's line in three years. Osaka, a two

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Speaker 1: time Australian Open champ, will face Belinda Bencicic. While Osaka's

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Speaker 1: been successful on the court, it's been a very chaotic

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks for the twenty seven year old off it.

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Speaker 1: Last week, she announced that her relationship with longtime partner

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Speaker 1: Rapper Corde had ended. They started dating in twenty nineteen

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Speaker 1: and share a daughter, Shi, who.

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Speaker 2: Is one and a half.

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Speaker 1: Osaka also told reporters in Melbourne that the Los Angeles

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Speaker 1: wildfires made it within three blocks of her home, causing

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Speaker 1: her to ask someone back home to retrieve her daughter's

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Speaker 1: birth certificate in case the house was lost in the wildfires.

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Speaker 1: To pro volleyball, love isn't the only game in town.

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Speaker 1: The Pro Volleyball Federation just started its second season with

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Speaker 1: eight teams around the country, and last week the Omaha

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Speaker 1: Supernovas reset the US pro Volleyball attendance record when thirteen thousy,

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Speaker 1: four hundred and eighty six people crammed into the Chi

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Speaker 1: Health Center in downtown Omaha to see the team win

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Speaker 1: a five set thriller over the Atlanta Vibe. There are

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Speaker 1: six PVF teams in action tonight, beginning with the Indie

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Speaker 1: Ignite taken on Grand Rapids and the Columbus Fury at

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Speaker 1: the Atlanta Vibe, both at seven pm Eastern. Will link

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Speaker 1: to the full game schedule and tune in info in

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Speaker 1: our show notes.

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Speaker 2: We got to take a quick break. When we come back.

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Speaker 1: Everything you need to know about the very inaccurately named

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Speaker 1: Protection of Women and Girls in Sports Act with Katie.

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Speaker 2: Barnes joining us now.

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Speaker 1: They're an award winning journalists, producer, and author covering the

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Speaker 1: intersection of sports and gender. Their work has appeared across

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Speaker 1: multiple ESPN platforms, including ESPN dot Com, Sports Center, Outside

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Speaker 1: the Lines, and the ESPN Daily Podcast.

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Speaker 2: They're a three time GLAD nominee, and we're.

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Speaker 1: Named the twenty seventeen Journalist of the Year by the

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Speaker 1: Association of LGBTQ Journalists. Their book Fair Play, How Sports

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Speaker 1: Shape the Gender Debates was on Time Magazine's list of

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Speaker 1: one hundred must read books of twenty twenty three. They

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Speaker 1: love Bourbon and Disneyland, and they've been to the best

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Speaker 1: women's sports bar in Chicago more times than I have.

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Speaker 1: I'm working on it, Katie Barnes what's up, Katie?

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Speaker 2: Yo? What's up?

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Speaker 3: What an intro? I feel so cool? Thank you?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean you are cool. Fun fact.

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Speaker 1: Once for a gift, I asked for two books, both

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Speaker 1: of them named fair Play. I'm sure you recognize that

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Speaker 1: there's another book also named fair Play that sometimes people

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Speaker 1: mistake for yours.

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Speaker 2: Both fantastic books. I got them both for the same birthday.

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Speaker 3: I first of all love it. Second of all, yes,

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Speaker 3: I do know that.

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Speaker 4: They're about wildly different things. Yeah, both about gender. So

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Speaker 4: that's kind of interesting and both fascinating. Thanks for making

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Speaker 4: time for us last minute.

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Speaker 1: You are here today to help us make sense of

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Speaker 1: the we believe very poorly named Protection of Women and

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Speaker 1: Girls in Sports Act bill that the House just voted

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Speaker 1: to pass on Tuesday. So can you sort of break

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Speaker 1: down what the bill intends to do?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So, what the bill does is it builds on

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Speaker 4: legislation that has passed across the country that bars trench

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Speaker 4: into girls and women from participating in girls and women's

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Speaker 4: sports at the school in collegiate levels. What is different, however,

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Speaker 4: about the piece of legislation is actually a men's Title

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Speaker 4: nine to define sex as being determined by a reproductive

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Speaker 4: biology and genetics at birth direct quote, and then ties

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Speaker 4: federal funding to the issue of a transgender girls and

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Speaker 4: women participating girls women's sports by basically saying that you'd

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Speaker 4: be out of compliance with Title nine if any school

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Speaker 4: enacted such a policy. So it is incredibly broad in

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Speaker 4: terms of how far it reaches, but it's also very

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Speaker 4: specific in that it is at the school level because

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Speaker 4: it's about federal funding and Title nine and not about

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Speaker 4: how a state is defining sex or about who's eligible

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Speaker 4: for school sports. It's different and interesting in that regard

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Speaker 4: from a policy perspective.

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Speaker 1: And it doesn't seek different policies for those levels of education. Right,

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Speaker 1: So the same policy would apply to a third grader

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Speaker 1: as a collegiate athlete.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there's some question about that, but as

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Speaker 4: it's written, that is certainly what it looks like, in

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Speaker 4: that there is no differentiation in the text or any

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Speaker 4: enumeration of how this would be applied across different school categories.

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Speaker 4: It basically says federal funding for institutions that you receive it,

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Speaker 4: which is pretty much every school in the country, and

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Speaker 4: as we know, Title nine, although we often talk about

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Speaker 4: it in a collegiate sense and in a women's sports sense.

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Speaker 4: Title nine applied, it's an equal access education law, so

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Speaker 4: it applies to any school receiving federal funding, which includes

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Speaker 4: private schools.

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Speaker 3: It includes elementary schools, middle schools.

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Speaker 4: And because there is no differentiation at this point as

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Speaker 4: it's written, that is certainly the interpretation that a lot

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Speaker 4: of people have of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the amendment to the federal law, the Title nine law,

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Speaker 1: is an interesting one because, as to your point, it

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Speaker 1: requires that sex will be recognized solely on a person's

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Speaker 1: reproductive biology and genetics at birth for determining compliance. Those

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Speaker 1: who are in support of this bill, many of whom

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Speaker 1: seem to believe that that is the only way to

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Speaker 1: acknowledge gender, then don't really believe it to be an amendment.

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Speaker 1: They believe it to be a reinforcement of Title nine,

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Speaker 1: because their insistence is that the only gender is that

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Speaker 1: associated with your reproductive biology, whereas Title nine, without saying

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Speaker 1: so much, has sort of thus far allowed for gender

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Speaker 1: identity to dictate in many ways.

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Speaker 2: Your participation is that accurate?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think in general, the core of

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Speaker 4: the legal dispute around transgender students and transgender athletes participating

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Speaker 4: in school sports is about how Title nine should be applied.

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Speaker 4: And also, you know, litigating existing case law about sex

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Speaker 4: based discrimination. So you have folks who are arguing in

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Speaker 4: favor of inclusive policy in schools and inclusive policy for

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Speaker 4: transgender student athletes at.

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Speaker 3: The school sports level.

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Speaker 4: Mostly you know, looking at this case law that has

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Speaker 4: been built that goes from this case. It's like Price

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Speaker 4: Waterhouse be Hopkins from nineteen eighty nine up to Bosstoc,

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Speaker 4: which is a Title seven ruling about employment discrimination just

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Speaker 4: from a few years ago, and building their case on

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Speaker 4: how sex based discrimination applies to sex stereotypes and therefore

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Speaker 4: would apply to gender identity, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: Like, it's a very clear line of thinking in that regard.

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Speaker 4: And for those who are in favor of restrictive policy

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Speaker 4: for transgender students and athletes, they argue that Title nine

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Speaker 4: does not need any additional discussion, right, Like it says

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Speaker 4: on the basis.

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Speaker 3: Of sex is fixed and immutable.

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Speaker 1: The end is what as opposed to gender right, right,

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Speaker 1: And so the interpretation of these words is core to

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Speaker 1: all of the legal proceedings that are happening across the

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Speaker 1: country in terms of challenging the already existing legislation at

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Speaker 1: the state level as well as you know, the few

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Speaker 1: Title nine cases specifically that have been litigated as they

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Speaker 1: pertain to transgender students and schools as well as transgender athletes.

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Speaker 1: In my brain, I'm doing this calculation of, Oh, it

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Speaker 1: feels like it would it would be more jarring to

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Speaker 1: convince people to change existing Title nine law. So in

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Speaker 1: order to soften that blow, you say you're not actually

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Speaker 1: changing anything. It's very explicit in what it says about sex.

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Speaker 1: On the other hand, our government and the people in

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Speaker 1: charge are rapidly changing, and I wonder if there is

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Speaker 1: much pushback to the idea of changing Title nine, or

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Speaker 1: if a lot of the people in Congress and the

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Speaker 1: Senate actually believe that Title nine is a law whose

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Speaker 1: strength should be weakened, is a law whose enforcement should

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Speaker 1: continue to be not properly enforced. Because we saw with

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Speaker 1: like Betsy de Vas and some others in the previous

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Speaker 1: Trump administration, there was certainly what felt like a desire.

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Speaker 2: To take some of the teeth out of Title nine.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's interesting in terms of, you know, taking some

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Speaker 4: the teeth out of Title nine. It's actually in fascinating

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Speaker 4: to me because you know, under the first Trump administration,

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Speaker 4: you know, Betsy Devas in the later years and the

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Speaker 4: Department of Education, you know, really weabinized Title nine specifically

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Speaker 4: against transgender athletes and policy as it pertains to transgender

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Speaker 4: athletes holding up funding in the state of Connecticut for

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Speaker 4: a couple, like for a completely non related magnet program

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Speaker 4: in New Haven. Eventually that funding was granted, but that

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Speaker 4: did happen, and it was specifically about transgender inclusive policy

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Speaker 4: in the state, as well as forcing Franklin Pierce University

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Speaker 4: to change its policy that allowed for cc Telford to

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Speaker 4: compete on its team and then win a national championship

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Speaker 4: in twenty nineteen in Division two hurdles and on this category.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I'm thinking of Betsy Devas trying to

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Speaker 1: use Title nine in issues of sexual assault.

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Speaker 4: Yes, right, so there was like a role back there

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Speaker 4: and then a weaponization in other spaces.

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Speaker 2: Interesting.

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Speaker 4: But I think what's fascinating about some of this conversation

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Speaker 4: is that for a lot of the general public, transgender

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Speaker 4: athletes as an idea and as an issue really came

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Speaker 4: to the public consciousness around like really with Leah Thomas.

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Speaker 3: In twenty twenty one and twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 4: But this topic had been a legal football for years

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Speaker 4: before that, going back to the Obama administration sending out,

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Speaker 4: you know, basically formal guidance around how to treat transgender

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Speaker 4: students in schools in twenty sixteen and saying that transgender

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Speaker 4: youth should be affirmed in this in these ways, and

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Speaker 4: twenty three states sued the Obama administration over the implementation

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Speaker 4: of that guidance and it never went into full effect.

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Speaker 4: And then you have the first Trump administration comes in.

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Speaker 4: One of the first things they do is rescind that

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Speaker 4: guidance and so like, this is something that has been

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Speaker 4: part of a back and forth for years pre dating

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Speaker 4: I think with the public really began to become aware

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Speaker 4: of it.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I'm curious about, if the

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Speaker 1: desire is to make all participation coincide with reproductive biology

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Speaker 1: and genetics at birth, there are a lot of politicians

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Speaker 1: who are all too eager to conflate transgender athletes and

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Speaker 1: athletes with DSDs so differences in sex development, and also

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Speaker 1: even cisgender women who maybe just present as more masks

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Speaker 1: or are physically strong or tall or bigger, all those

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Speaker 1: things that we hear about the worst case scenarios where

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Speaker 1: parents are yelling at athletes on the field that's a

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Speaker 1: boy without any proof, without any reason other than this

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Speaker 1: now desire to sort of take all of the anti

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Speaker 1: trans rhetoric and apply it in other.

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Speaker 2: Spaces as well.

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Speaker 1: Do we yet know how this bill might impact athletes

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Speaker 1: with DSDs, because right now the Democrats and those who

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Speaker 1: are voting against this bill are saying one of the

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Speaker 1: worst possible outcomes is genital testing or other violations of

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Speaker 1: young girls in order to quote unquote prove their sex

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Speaker 1: for participation. Side is saying that's never going to happen.

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Speaker 1: We're just gonna use birth certificates. What happens if a

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Speaker 1: birth certificate says one thing and either presentation or otherwise

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Speaker 1: seems to imply, whether you have the science behind it

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Speaker 1: or not, that there are differences in sex.

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Speaker 2: How does that work with this bill?

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Speaker 4: Oh, that's a really great question. I'll take it like

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Speaker 4: in three different parts. So the first is that there

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Speaker 4: is no specific mention of athletes with differences of sex development.

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Speaker 4: I think the best indication of how this could possibly

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Speaker 4: apply be applied is the usage of verbiage genetics at

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Speaker 4: birth direct quote right, So, if you're somebody who is

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Speaker 4: X Y and you have a difference of sex development

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Speaker 4: that would cause you to be assigned female at birth

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Speaker 4: or in that case, your genetics at birth would be

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Speaker 4: x y the end. So I think that is probably

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Speaker 4: the perspective there, though I do not know for sure.

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Speaker 3: I would also say.

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Speaker 4: That you know, different to the sex development and the

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Speaker 4: physiology of those athletes, that's something that we talk about

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Speaker 4: at the elite level that is so rarely an issue

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Speaker 4: in like seven year old soccer. And again, this bill

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Speaker 4: makes no distinction between how those conversations are different and

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Speaker 4: how different subsets of athletes could be affected. It's meant

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Speaker 4: to be very broad in that sense and also very rigid,

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Speaker 4: and that there is no flexibility and I don't mean

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Speaker 4: rigid as a pejorative, just that there is no path

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Speaker 4: to porkivision.

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Speaker 3: There are no exceptions. It's just this is what it is.

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Speaker 2: No nuance.

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Speaker 1: Yes to your point about if someone was born x Y,

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Speaker 1: which is typically male, but assigned to female at birth,

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Speaker 1: I don't believe it would say that on their birth

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Speaker 1: certificate right that genetic makeup, and oftentimes people with differences

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Speaker 1: of sex development aren't aware of it until they're tested

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Speaker 1: or potentially something comes out later. So I don't know

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Speaker 1: how they would even be able to justify that other than,

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Speaker 1: like I said, worst case scenarios where someone is participating

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Speaker 1: and allowed and everything is normal and then all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, some parent or otherwise causes a stir as

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Speaker 1: was the case with folks like Castor Semenya, who was

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Speaker 1: a sis woman, raised a woman, all that and then

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Speaker 1: the differences of sex development were what resulted in, you know,

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Speaker 1: all of the trauma around her ability to participate.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's and that was the second point

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Speaker 4: that I was going to make is that the reality

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Speaker 4: is that when you draw a line in the sand,

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Speaker 4: you draw a boundary, you have to police the boundary.

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Speaker 3: And that's one thing that has been a hallmark.

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Speaker 4: Of legislation that has passed at the state level across

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Speaker 4: the country is there's usually some sort of a mechanism

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Speaker 4: for challenging and then resolving a dispute over.

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Speaker 3: A student's gender or sex.

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Speaker 4: And ultimately, if your sex is challenged, you have to

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Speaker 4: prove that you are who you said you are in

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Speaker 4: some way, and there are some states that allow you

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Speaker 4: to modify your birth certificate.

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Speaker 3: Although what we are seeing is in tandem.

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Speaker 4: With the legislation that effects transgender athletes, we're also seeing

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Speaker 4: legislation that affects a variety of life for transgender people,

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Speaker 4: whether we're talking about youth access to healthcare, or talk

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Speaker 4: about access to documents and document changes to match your

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Speaker 4: documents with your lived experience, your lived identity, and as

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Speaker 4: that becomes continuously fraud and you and people lose access

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Speaker 4: to change their documents, becomes a good point whereas you

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Speaker 4: may not be able to show a birth certificate that's

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Speaker 4: been amended anyway. But also even if there is evidence

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Speaker 4: of you being a transgender person anywhere like that could

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Speaker 4: be surfaced. And that is something that we're also seeing

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Speaker 4: in terms of athletes who are currently competing under state

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Speaker 4: law and policy that allows them to compete and participate

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Speaker 4: in girls' sports in you know, for a variety of

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Speaker 4: sports at their levels, and they are being outed and

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Speaker 4: so it's very complicated and it's creating a lot of

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Speaker 4: fear among transgender youth and their families. But from a

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Speaker 4: broad level in terms of drawing that line and then

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Speaker 4: have a and then requiring proof of some kind, you know,

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Speaker 4: there's a lot of speculator about what that proof could be.

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Speaker 4: And of course proponents for this legislation would say it's

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Speaker 4: very simple, show your birth certificate, but it can be

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Speaker 4: more complicated than that. And also we have seen examples

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Speaker 4: in other states where this legislation has passed already, where

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Speaker 4: people are accused of being trans and are not. And

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Speaker 4: there's also, you know, the trauma of that in terms

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Speaker 4: of sticking out looking different and then being accused of

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Speaker 4: being this big, bad boogeyman who shouldn't be.

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Speaker 3: Legally able to compete where you're competing.

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Speaker 4: So there's just a lot going on in terms of

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Speaker 4: how these things are going to be resolved, and frankly,

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Speaker 4: a lot of it is speculative, but that doesn't mean

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Speaker 4: that a lot of the questions being raised aren't worthy questions.

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Speaker 1: The bill was passed in the House with a vote

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Speaker 1: of two eighteen to two six. Two Democrats voted in favor,

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Speaker 1: one Democrat voted present. It's expected and next be taken

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Speaker 1: up to the Senate. Are folks expecting similar support from

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Speaker 1: the bill in the GOP controlled Senate?

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Speaker 3: Oh, you know, that's a really good question. I do

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Speaker 3: not know.

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Speaker 4: I spoke with someone today who is for this legislation.

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Speaker 4: Who is hopeful that it's going to pass in the Senate,

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Speaker 4: it would require seven votes to break a filibuster. Candidly,

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Speaker 4: I do not know if there's seven votes for it.

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Speaker 4: As a reporter, you know, I'm a sports journalist, and

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Speaker 4: all of a sudden, I'm like, Oh, do I have

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Speaker 4: to be a politics journalist?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? You do? You do? We expect that of you, Katie.

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Speaker 1: I will say that from what I read, it's not

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Speaker 1: clear if it will pass because to your point, at

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Speaker 1: least seven Democrats would have to vote with the Republican

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Speaker 1: side to hit the sixty vote threshold, and that's sort

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Speaker 1: of an uphill battle according to some who believe it

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Speaker 1: might be tough to pass.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know, who knows.

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Speaker 3: I think, right, it's certainly an open question.

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Speaker 4: There's a nondero chance that it passes, you know, and

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Speaker 4: for those who are not in favor of this legislation,

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Speaker 4: that's very worrying. There have been other times where there's

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Speaker 4: been where like the House passed a similar bill last year,

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Speaker 4: and there have been other times where this legislation has

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Speaker 4: been debated, and you know, folks haven't been that worried.

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Speaker 4: But I would say that certainly people I talk to

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Speaker 4: are concerned right now.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes there's movement that could be unexpected. During that

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Speaker 1: last session of Congress when they did pass the bill,

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Speaker 1: one of the Democrats who voted for it this time

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Speaker 1: voted against it then, So changes of opinion, a gradual

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Speaker 1: wearing down, changes of language. You just aren't fully certain

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Speaker 1: ever until the vote is taken. Let's say it does

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Speaker 1: get pasted in the Senate. Let's talk about the actual outcomes.

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Speaker 1: So for the last fifty plus years, Title nine was

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Speaker 1: supposed to keep schools in compliance for nondiscrimination based on

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Speaker 1: the basis of sex. They would receive federal funding if

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Speaker 1: they remained in compliance with Title nine. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of great benefits to Title nine. But as we celebrated

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Speaker 1: the fifty aeth the anniversary just a couple of years ago,

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Speaker 1: what we learned from investigating was that a lot of

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Speaker 1: schools are not in compliance and there is not a

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Speaker 1: great enforcement mechanism other than suing threatening to suit to

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Speaker 1: get schools to comply. Do you have a sense of

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Speaker 1: whether this legislation, which runs along the same lines of

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Speaker 1: Title nine, would be enforced more seriously or any differently

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Speaker 1: than what we've seen with Title nine, which is very hodgepodge.

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Speaker 4: You know, I don't know because, like you said, like

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Speaker 4: the way that title hios and force is through investigations

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Speaker 4: in the Department of Education the Office for Civil Rights.

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Speaker 4: You know, those investigations take a very long time. And

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Speaker 4: also you know, there are questions about what the makeup

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Speaker 4: of the Department of Education is going to be.

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Speaker 3: Like moving forward.

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Speaker 4: So how this will be enforced is an open question.

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Speaker 4: But I have no doubt that certainly for transgender.

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Speaker 3: Youths, there will be a chilling effect.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and there already aren't very many transgender kids playing sports,

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Speaker 4: certainly from a percentage of how many transgender youths there are,

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Speaker 4: you know, they play sports at a much lower rate

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Speaker 4: than their's such gender peers. And so in that sense,

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Speaker 4: you know, I wonder how what that effect will be.

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Speaker 4: The Department of Education has shown a willingness to enforce

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Speaker 4: Title nine as it pertains to their interpretation of how

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Speaker 4: it applies to transgender youth and well and transgender people

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Speaker 4: in schools and in colleges, and you know that could

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Speaker 4: also happen again here under this administration. But exactly how

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Speaker 4: it will be enforced again, that is an open question

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Speaker 4: and that and there isn't really a good enforcement mechanism

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Speaker 4: in the text itself.

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Speaker 1: One of the evil tricks of bookkeeping for Title nine

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Speaker 1: is counting male practice players as women in Title nine

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Speaker 1: reporting to try to meet the numbers and reach equality.

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Speaker 1: Do we know if this bill would prevent teams, particularly

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Speaker 1: college teams, which we know often use male practice players

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Speaker 1: from continue to do so.

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Speaker 4: Actually explicitly says the text that it would not, that

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Speaker 4: it does not say to practice players, which I thought,

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Speaker 4: which I thought was interesting. You know, I reported a

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Speaker 4: lot on the San Jose State volleyball story earlier this year,

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Speaker 4: and there's a lot of discussion about safety, safety for

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Speaker 4: women athletes who were getting hit in the face with spikes,

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Speaker 4: et cetera, et cetera. And one of the things that

441
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 4: was brought up to me multiple times was that there

442
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 4: are you know, men who practice with you know, volleyball

443
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 4: players at Power five conferences, and you know, I know

444
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 4: somebody who was a power who was a practice player

445
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 4: for the Ukon women's basketball team, et cetera. It's a

446
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 4: very common practice among women's sports. So I thought that

447
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 4: was an interesting note, Like there wasn't very much well.

448
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 1: Of course, the practice players are able to at all

449
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 1: times being complete control of their bodies and the effort

450
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 1: that they're putting in solely there to help and never

451
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 1: putting anyone at risk. Unlike in competition. This sounds more

452
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 1: like the protection of boys and men in sports. Ec Well,

453
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 1: we want to make sure we don't mess with the

454
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:52,639
Speaker 1: practice players who are guys.

455
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 4: Well you said that, I have no comment.

456
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 2: Well, I get to editorialize, Katie.

457
00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 1: You have to be the one who speaks along the

458
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 1: lines of exactly what it says to the bills, and

459
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: I get to just say whatever the fuck I want

460
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:05,400
Speaker 1: about this shit. Well.

461
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 4: I thought what was interesting though, is like, when we've

462
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:09,879
Speaker 4: been talking about this, well, how does this apply or

463
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 4: like did they consider this like and my answers are like, well,

464
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 4: this wasn't enumerated in the text, this wasn't explicitly said,

465
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,879
Speaker 4: but the practice players were. So I thought that was

466
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 4: a really interesting thing that somebody said, Okay, but wait,

467
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 4: we still need to practice with the guys, so please

468
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 4: put that in the text.

469
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 2: And I just thought that was so true. There.

470
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like it's a very grandular understanding of how

471
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 4: women train at the collegiate level. So I just I

472
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 4: don't know, I thought that was noteworthy and just really fascinating.

473
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, like somebody who actually knows how it goes down

474
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 1: was in there clearing space for that, while in many

475
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,719
Speaker 1: ways ignoring some of the other realities of how this

476
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,199
Speaker 1: works in order to push forward the rest of the legislation.

477
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 4: Or at least leaving other questions completely unanswered.

478
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 3: Right Like, that is like one answer.

479
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 4: That's one question that is specifically answered, and others just

480
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 4: or not.

481
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 1: What are some of the potential unintended consequences that might

482
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 1: result from the passing of this bill?

483
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 4: Well, like I said, I think the Yeah, there's policing

484
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,879
Speaker 4: of a boundary that's set, and that is likely just

485
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 4: statistically to not only affect transgender athletes. You know, it's

486
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 4: a very common experience if you play girls of women's

487
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 4: sports to be accused of being a man, to be

488
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 4: accused of being queer, right like, regardless of whether or

489
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 4: not that is your lived experience, and that is something

490
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 4: for that is harmful I think for a lot of

491
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 4: athletes in girls of women's sports in terms of self

492
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 4: hurt self esteem. For those who are queer, it hurts

493
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,640
Speaker 4: their sense of self because being queer as a negative thing. Right,

494
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 4: We've seen some of this movie before in that sense,

495
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 4: and so from an but that also I don't know

496
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,919
Speaker 4: if that's an undin headed consequence, to be honest with you,

497
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 4: fair but yeah, you know, I just think that the

498
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 4: the effect of legislation like this that is also really

499
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 4: cultural and culturally relevant. I don't know that we fully

500
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 4: know or grapple with like what that actually will be.

501
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 4: And then I think could very demonstrable effect is that

502
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 4: a lot of transgender kids are not going to feel

503
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 4: welcome in sports and may not play even at.

504
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 3: A higher rate than they already are playing.

505
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a couple points on that the idea that, well,

506
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: it says right in there just to use their birth certificate.

507
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: Are we for certain that that's what's going to happen

508
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,880
Speaker 1: at the granular level at every single school in every

509
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 1: single state, in every single city, as opposed to somebody

510
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 1: feeling that they take it on themselves or feeling like

511
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 1: there must be some way to prove quote unquote something right,

512
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 1: and then it does become an issue of safety and

513
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 1: risk and violation. I think to your point about what

514
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: this means for both participation at the youth level and

515
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 1: the feeling of community inclusion. This clearly to me is

516
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: taking an issue that is very binary focused and using

517
00:26:55,600 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: it as the first step towards major trans rights and

518
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 1: safety being affected in future policy. Right, if you can

519
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: get people on board being anti trans, fear mongering, scaring people,

520
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,719
Speaker 1: making trans people the big boogeyman, then you can convince

521
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 1: them later that they also shouldn't be in bathrooms, that

522
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 1: they also shouldn't have protections for employment, that they also

523
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 1: shouldn't be allowed to marry.

524
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 2: Right. I mean it feels like the sports issue is.

525
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: A political cudgel and an easy one to convince people

526
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: of along these lines we've talked about that are often

527
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: not scientifically backed or proven, just so that once you

528
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 1: get them on the side of demonizing trans people, then

529
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 1: they'll be further incentivized to pass for future laws and bills.

530
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:43,439
Speaker 4: I think legislatively at the state level, that is something

531
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 4: that has been seen in terms of the types of

532
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 4: legislation that passes of after passing a bill about sports,

533
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 4: So whether it's access to gender firming care for transgender youth,

534
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 4: restrictions on access to content that involved queer and trans

535
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 4: people from like what we're talking about book bans or

536
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 4: academic restriction in that sense, talking about you know, even

537
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 4: like in some states there have been banned you know,

538
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 4: either actual passage of legislation or attempts to past legislation

539
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 4: that restricts you know, the expression of drag right like,

540
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:25,239
Speaker 4: So there is a wider suite of legislative priorities that

541
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 4: expand out from this topic. Although what I will say

542
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 4: is it's interesting because I think legislatively in some states

543
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 4: you've seen that, and also my experience on the ground

544
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 4: talking to people is you know, they really grapple with

545
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 4: like the sports thing and maybe gender firming healthcare they

546
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 4: have questions about, but the other stuff isn't necessarily on

547
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 4: their radar or they don't necessarily associate this the sports

548
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 4: conversation with the conversation about transgender identity at all. It's

549
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 4: mostly about to them, Oh, well, if you're a signed

550
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 4: male at BURR, why would you be allowed to play

551
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 4: girls sports? That doesn't make sense to me because culturally

552
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 4: and to a certain degree scientifically, you know, there is

553
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 4: an imbalance in terms of access and performance when it

554
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 4: comes to you know, boys and men being typically bigger, faster,

555
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 4: stronger than girls and women, Now what that means at

556
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 4: a variety of levels of sport, and whether or not

557
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 4: that should be applied to intramural and club level sport.

558
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 3: Like, all of those are.

559
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 4: Questions, and that are policy questions that I think there's

560
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 4: a real hunger to grapple with meaningfully from the American public. However,

561
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 4: in tandem with that, there is a very aggressive legislative

562
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 4: push to pass restrictive legislation and policy, and that's kind

563
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 4: of where we've been for the last five years. That

564
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 4: doesn't have really any kind of room for nuance and

565
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 4: is very rigid and actually in the United States, the

566
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 4: legislative efforts are more more restrictive than what we've seen

567
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 4: from a global elite sport policy perspective, which I think

568
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 4: is interesting as well.

569
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about that.

570
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: If we zoom out and look at the larger sports landscape,

571
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: this legislation would be federal policy, which then would apply

572
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: to all the publicly funded schools in the US. How

573
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: does that compare to policy changes we've seen at other

574
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: levels like the Olympics or the World Championships.

575
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, so the Olympics in twenty twenty one made a

576
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 4: change and said each international federation could come up with

577
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 4: their own policy. They gave them guidelines for what those

578
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 4: policies maybe should look like and things they should consider,

579
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 4: and the international federations largely discarded those Frankly, I think

580
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 4: that's fair to say, and enacted.

581
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 3: The policies that they wanted to enact.

582
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 4: And so what we've seen is a number of restrictive

583
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 4: policies like that is the environment.

584
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 3: There has not been a policy update.

585
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 4: From a major federation that is more inclusive in the

586
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 4: last four or five years, and that those policies like,

587
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 4: for example, we use swimming which applied. They go out

588
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 4: of their way to say this applies to elite swimming

589
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 4: and World aquatics and World Aquatics events, and says that

590
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 4: if you are a transgender woman you want to be

591
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 4: eligible for women's category, you are not if you've gone

592
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 4: through any part of male puberty. And so if you

593
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 4: began a transition prior to a disost from driven puberty,

594
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 4: theoretically you could be.

595
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 3: Eligible for women's category.

596
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 4: So it's a narrow path, but it's still a path

597
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 4: that is not the case in any of the states

598
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 4: that have passed legislation in the United States, and it's

599
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 4: not the case with HR twenty eight that just passed

600
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 4: earlier this week, and so I think that's interesting. It's

601
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 4: a small gap, but it is a gap, and it's

602
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 4: one that certainly proponents of restrictive legislation and policy in

603
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 4: the United States are actively working to close.

604
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 3: They would like to see global.

605
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 4: Sports policy mirror more what we have from a legislative

606
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 4: perspective in the United States.

607
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 2: For sure, it's such a complicated topic.

608
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: There is science, there is politics, there is identity there.

609
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 2: I mean, it's.

610
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: Something where we under stand now that gender insects are

611
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: not binary, and yet we're trying to fit it into

612
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,719
Speaker 1: a binary mold, which is always going to be complicated.

613
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 1: But I think what's lost, particularly in a bill like this,

614
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: is the fact that it does apply the exact same

615
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: to collegiate elite athletes as it does to children. And

616
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: it's not even taking into consideration the power of inclusion

617
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: and community and participation in teamwork and everything else. So

618
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 1: I want to ask you this last thing. When we

619
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: know how much is at stake for the transcommunity, not

620
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: just in terms of what sports related things this might

621
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: apply to, but when it comes to recent and suggested legislation,

622
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: also it might affect basic human rights, medical care, things

623
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: like that. It sometimes feels like the folks advocating for

624
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: the transcommunity aren't willing to fully engage with the questions

625
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 1: that folks have about fairness and safety, either because they

626
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 1: don't want to come across as equivocating or not fighting

627
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: hard enough for inclusion, maybe because they're unwilling to discuss

628
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: these issues with folks who are operating in bad faith

629
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 1: or fear mongering or not using science at all. They

630
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: don't want to get in the ring with someone who

631
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: they know is not going to at a fair fight.

632
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 2: I understand all of that.

633
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: I struggle at times myself with trying to reconcile where

634
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: I do think there might be genetic benefits to being

635
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: born male at the highest highest levels, while also saying

636
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,959
Speaker 1: there is absolutely no part of me that thinks that

637
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: youth should be restricted from competing and playing. Our desire

638
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: to prioritize winning over humanity is so clear to me

639
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: at the youth levels. How do we or should we

640
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: try to push for more of an effort to have

641
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: those conversations, to be more honest, even about the things

642
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: we don't fully know or that are scientifically unclear to

643
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: offset the efforts of the GOP who are so willing

644
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 1: to push false narratives and so willing to use salacious,

645
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: fear mongering tactics to try to force people to one side.

646
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 5: So one of the things I get asked a lot

647
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 5: is like, what's missing from this conversation, right? And my

648
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 5: answer to that almost always is, you know, listening, compassion,

649
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 5: and empathy, And for me, those things are multi way streets.

650
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 3: And so, you know, if you're somebody who.

651
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:11,240
Speaker 4: Supports transgender inclusion, I think it's really important to listen

652
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 4: to those who do not, like what is it that

653
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 4: they're saying?

654
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 3: What are their experiences? Why do they feel that way?

655
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 4: And you know, I think that's something that can be

656
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 4: really hard to do because so much of this discussion

657
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 4: and debate, if you want to frame it that way,

658
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:34,240
Speaker 4: is rooted in our ideas about gender, are conceptions of self,

659
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 4: our own experiences, and our experiences with the incredibly emotional

660
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 4: thing that is sports.

661
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 3: It can be I think.

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00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 4: Really hard and challenging to hear those criticism and challenges

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00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 4: to ideas that you may hold, as you know, an

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00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 4: inclusion activist, that you know, are really core values. And

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00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 4: I think for folks who are transgender, right, that is,

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00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 4: you know, even further compounded because at times the challenges

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00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 4: run folks who favor restrictive policy are to the very

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00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 4: notion of you know, can transgender people even exist?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 4: And so I think especially for folks who are not

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00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 4: trans who are in support of inclusive policy, you know,

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00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 4: it's important to kunderstand in that space if that's something

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00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 4: that you believe in, you to have those harder conversations

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00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 4: and in support of transgender people with whom you are allied.

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00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,359
Speaker 3: And I think the same is true for folks who

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00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:32,879
Speaker 3: are on the.

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00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 4: Fence, who you know, aren't sure, who have heard different ideas,

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00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 4: or who are in favor of restrictive policy for a

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00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 4: variety of reasons. I think it's incredibly important to hear

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00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 4: the fears of trans people, to engage with the transgender

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00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 4: people about their life experiences and who they are, and

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00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 4: to consider not just the impacts of legislation on your

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00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 4: own family or on you know, inclusive policy on you know,

684
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 4: your daughters as often something that I hear, but also

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00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 4: consider the effects of restrictive policy on young transgender people.

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00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 3: And that doesn't and I'm not saying that.

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00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 4: In an effort to get anybody to change their minds.

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00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 4: I just think there's such a gap where folks are

689
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:19,320
Speaker 4: not talking, are not listening, and are not really hearing

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00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 4: the perspectives of, you know, those who disagree with them.

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00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 4: And that's where I have felt. I have felt that

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00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 4: so acutely on this issue over time, as somebody who

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00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 4: sits in the space as a journalist where it is

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00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 4: my job to listen to people from a variety of perspectives,

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00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 4: and I take that very seriously. But then who also

696
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 4: has had like my appearance, politicized my own identity and

697
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 4: politicized and it has experienced that, who's experienced an elevated

698
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 4: level of scrutiny on this issue. I think that gives

699
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 4: me a lot of empathy with you know, folks, you

700
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,359
Speaker 4: know within the trans community who are trying to play

701
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 4: sports and then suddenly are in the middle of a firestorm.

702
00:36:57,960 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: Right.

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00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 4: So, like, it's very COMPLI katid, it's very nuanced, and

704
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 4: I think we would all do better if we meaningfully engaged, yeah,

705
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 4: with those who with a different opinion than us.

706
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it's only made worse by the

707
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 1: fact that so much of our communication is now done

708
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 1: via the Internet and lobbing insults and facts or not

709
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: facts back and forth, as opposed to traditional conversation where

710
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: you are seeking to understand what the other person is

711
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 1: saying in order to engage back and forth.

712
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 2: In the way we communicate now.

713
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 1: It really allows for some of the worst things to

714
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 1: come out and for us to be unwilling to hear

715
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 1: the other side and placing onto them opinions or beliefs

716
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,399
Speaker 1: that they might not even have based solely on their

717
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: reticence to agree with something or their pursuit of inclusion

718
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,919
Speaker 1: or whatever it is. Katie, we always learn a ton

719
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: from you. We know you're super busy in the response

720
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 1: to all of this, so thanks so much for making

721
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: time for it.

722
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 3: Oh thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

723
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: Thanks to Katie for taking the time we got to

724
00:37:51,160 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 1: take another break. See on the other side. Welcome back, slices.

725
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: We love that you're listening, but we want you to

726
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: get in the game every day too. So here's our

727
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: good gameplay of the day by Katie's book. It's called

728
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 1: fair Play. How Sports Shape the Gender Debates. We'll link

729
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 1: to it in our show notes, or you could pick

730
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: it up from your local bookstore, and if you're like

731
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: Alex while you're at the bookstore, you could move the display.

732
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 2: Around a little bit.

733
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,240
Speaker 1: So, I don't know, maybe extra copies of Katie's book

734
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:25,720
Speaker 1: somehow make their way in front of Steven A. Smith's

735
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 1: Oh and keep sending us picks of your Unrivaled team

736
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 1: draft pages. It's so fun to see you participating and

737
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: playing along, but also not fun to see that you

738
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: all have better handwriting than me and Mish.

739
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 3: We got to work on that.

740
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 2: We love to hear from you.

741
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 1: Hit us up on email, good game at wondermediaetwork dot com,

742
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 1: or you can leave us a voicemail at eight seven

743
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: two two four fifty seventy and you all know what's

744
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: coming next. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. That's right,

745
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 1: Just scroll down, find the stars, click, leave us a

746
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:54,439
Speaker 1: beautiful review, give.

747
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 2: Us five stars.

748
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 1: It's really easy watch learning that someone else also crunch

749
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: the numbers to determine the Gayest Unrivaled club. Rating ten

750
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: out of ten Gaydar Alignment points. Review shout out to

751
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,359
Speaker 1: friend of the show Frankie de Lacreta, who also did

752
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: the math and found out that at least seventeen of

753
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: the thirty six players competing in Unrivaled are out as queer.

754
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 1: Frankie's numbers were actually a little higher than Alex's, with

755
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: the Laces Basketball Club coming in at number one with

756
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: five out of six players. We love to see it, and,

757
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,320
Speaker 1: as Frankie writes, quote, this ratio means that gay people

758
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 1: are obligated to watch Unrivaled. Sorry, I don't make the

759
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: rules end quote. We'll link to Frankie's full story in

760
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 1: the show notes. Now it's your turn, rate and review.

761
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, See you tomorrow. Good Game, Katie, Good Game,

762
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 1: Naomio osaka, hw House Republicans. Good Game with Sarah Spain

763
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: is an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep

764
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 1: Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find us on the

765
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

766
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzie

767
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 1: and Misha Jones. Our executive users are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz,

768
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,240
Speaker 1: Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rutterer,

769
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 1: Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch, and Lindsay Crodowell. Production assistants from

770
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 1: Lucy Jones and I'm your host, Sarah Spain