1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Welcome to 4 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, where we explore 5 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: the intersection of social media, technology and identity. And this 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: is another installment of our roundup of news that you 7 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: might have missed online this week. Quick heads up, I 8 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: have COVID, Mike has COVID. We all have COVID. 9 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 2: That's right, Bridget. This episode is brought to listeners by we. 10 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I know you've had it a few times. 11 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: This is my sixth time getting it. And when we 12 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: were talking about it, we were like, oh, like, didn't 13 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: you feel like this strain it was more like body 14 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: and less like we were talking about it like we 15 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: were talking about a strain of marijuana, Like, Oh, it's 16 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: more of a body vibe than a head in this 17 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: in this strain. 18 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, this this strain, Yeah, it's more a little more 19 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 2: body than head. But there's a you know, little head 20 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 2: ache FuG stuff going on. Uh, It's my experience has 21 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 2: been more mild than previous times. Not to minimize COVID. 22 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 2: COVID is terrible. Don't get it. It's a pretty big bummer. 23 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: Do you want to know what the strain, the new 24 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: the new strain that just dropped us called that we 25 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: probably have. 26 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 3: It's got a name flirt Flirt. 27 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: I know it sounds like I'm making that up, but 28 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: I swear to you I'm not. It's like Uppercase f 29 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: l Ert flirt. It's a flirty strain. 30 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,119 Speaker 3: Who is branding these things? What the hell? 31 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: I don't know, but it's out there. Y'all wear your masks, 32 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: do what you gotta do. But if you're wondering why, 33 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: maybe we both sound a little bit loopy. It's COVID. 34 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're bridges right, wear your masks. Don't do stupid 35 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 2: things like go to a packed concert I don't know, 36 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 2: or maybe do if that's what you want to do. 37 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 2: Just be ready to experience a lot of regret if 38 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 2: you're like somebody that I know. 39 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: I mean, you're being so clandestine. We got COVID together 40 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 1: going to a rave to see Fat Boy Slim, who 41 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: was amazing, by the way, did not This is how 42 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: I know we are about that life. Fat Boy Slim 43 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: there was two openers. He did not go on until 44 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 1: two in the morning and he performed until four thirty 45 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: in the morning, and you were like, yeah, I'll go. 46 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: I thought for sure you were because I was on 47 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: the fence. I was like, I don't know, packed packed warehouse, 48 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: rave up till five. 49 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 2: I don't know, you know, every once every year that 50 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 2: sort of thing feels appropriate. 51 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 3: I don't know. I really wanted to see me but 52 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 3: on a really good show. 53 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: And just so we're clear, I misread the poster or whatever, 54 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: and I thought he started at ten, which I was like, oh, 55 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: a little bit late, but you know, everything want to 56 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: see this show. Ten is when the doors opened. Ten 57 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: was the earliest that you could even get into the facility. 58 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: He didn't go on until two. And you know what, 59 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: we stayed up. We danced, We had a good time. 60 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,639 Speaker 1: We did it. Don't let anybody say otherwise. We did 61 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: get COVID that is that happened, but you know. 62 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 2: We did it pluses and minuses. 63 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,519 Speaker 3: The big plus cee in Fat Boy Slim. He really delivered. 64 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: So we have a little bit of a rule here 65 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: on the show where we don't talk about Trump unless 66 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: it's something really big, really major, something that we have 67 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: to talk about. But I think since we're both sick. 68 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: Let's have a little Trump as a treat. 69 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 3: All right, we can have just like a little Trump 70 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 3: as a treat. 71 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: So to introduce this conversation, let's play a little bit 72 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: of what I think is going to be the song 73 00:03:50,120 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: of the Summer by Mad Mcferrinucksucks, giftykill the killjkill. 74 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 4: So. 75 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: Earlier today, Trump was convicted of all thirty four charges 76 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: three four of falsifying business records in the hush money 77 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: case involving Stephanie Clifford, who performs under the stage name 78 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 1: Stormy Daniels. What are your thoughts? 79 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 3: Uh, they're complicated. 80 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 2: It's nice to see some justice and the shun freud. Uh, 81 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 2: it's certainly nice to see like the rule of law applied. Uh, 82 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,559 Speaker 2: since like he clearly did it and like didn't even 83 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 2: bother to say that he didn't do it. But it's uh, 84 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 2: it's it's a small comfort. 85 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:47,799 Speaker 3: It's just really. 86 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 2: Uh, like people are still going to vote for and 87 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 2: people are talking about how he's still getting donations and 88 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 2: this is going to like cause his donations to go up. 89 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 3: So it it's mixed. It's mixed. 90 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 2: I mean, I guess this is better than the alternative 91 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 2: of him getting off for clearly doing it. 92 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 1: We had such different takes on this because I was 93 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: like scrolling Blue Sky and threads and being like memes, memes, memes, 94 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: like celebratory dances, celebratory JITs. I was like, you know, 95 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: if anything, I was like, man, I really missed the 96 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,119 Speaker 1: days of Twitter when news like this would have really 97 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: like hit different. You were like, at least the rule 98 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: of law still upheld in this country. I'm like, how 99 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: many nity leaks jeeps can I use? 100 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 2: Well, I think you're having a healthier reaction. It sounds 101 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 2: like you're at least getting a little bit of joy 102 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 2: out of it. 103 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 1: You know, fine joy where you can, I will say so. 104 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 1: One of my favorite tweets was by Zach Silberberg, who tweeted, 105 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: so is Trump cooked now? Or is it like air 106 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: blood logic where it's like, there ain't no rule that 107 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 1: says a man with thirty four criminal convictions can't be president? 108 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: And not only do I like that, because famously, if 109 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 1: you've seen Airbud, there's no rule in the rule book 110 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: that says a dog can't play basketball. But Zach is 111 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: actually right here. I was like, well, certainly this means 112 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: that he cannot be elected president. That is not correct. 113 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: There is no rule, just like there is no rule 114 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: that says a dog can't play basketball. There is no 115 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: rule that somebody with this many felony convictions cannot be president. 116 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, he could run for president like a dog. 117 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 1: That's something else about Trump is that, like he always 118 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: said things were like a dog, and I always wondering, like, 119 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: what does he think about dogs? It will be like, oh, 120 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: he lost the election like a dog. It's like that 121 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: what dogs are known to do. 122 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, in his vocabulary, being a dog is one of 123 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 2: the worst things. Like, I don't know why he hates 124 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 2: dogs so much. 125 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: It's one of the worst things someone can be as 126 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:44,559 Speaker 1: a dog. 127 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess because they're good and kind and loyal 128 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 2: and some of them are smart. 129 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 3: That's why he hates them. 130 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: So I did see this tweet that made me laugh. 131 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: That was a screenshot of the headline that I assumed 132 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: was fake that said if Trump's conviction lands him in prison, 133 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: the service goes too. When I thought, haha, that's so funny, 134 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 1: looked it up to confirm and it's real. From the 135 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: New York Times. This is true. Side note, everything I've 136 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: read suggests that he probably will not say leave. But 137 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: if he was sentenced to jail time in July during 138 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: his sentencing, the Secret Service has to go. 139 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 3: Now that's a movie I would watch, Uh, what would 140 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 3: it be titled. 141 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: Secret Serve in time And on the cover it's like 142 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: Trump in the middle with his hands under his chin 143 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: and the Secret Service agent sort of like back to 144 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: back on either side of him with the sunglasses. 145 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 3: That's pretty good. 146 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 2: You came up with that right on the spot, Listeners, 147 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 2: we did not plan this Atle's pure bridget magic right there. 148 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. I'll take that. 149 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 2: For some reason, I'm picturing a sequel where the cover 150 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 2: looks kind of like the cover of Sister X two somehow, 151 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 2: like like he gets out and then right as he 152 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: gets out, he gets convicted in the Georgia case or something, 153 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 2: and then he has to go on the run with 154 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 2: the Secret Service. 155 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: Well, I applaud you for really remembering the plot of 156 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: Sister RAC too, because that's kind of what happens. 157 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 3: It was an important movie. 158 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 4: Let's take a quick break at our back. 159 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: So there's no real good transition from Sister RACT two 160 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: to what I want to talk about first. But we 161 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: have to talk about that viral all Eyes on Ratha 162 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: image on Instagram. So, like a lot of people, I 163 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: reposted the all Eyes on Ratha AI generated image on 164 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 1: my Instagram story and I am not alone. According to 165 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 1: NBC's Cat ken Barge, the image, calling for people to 166 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,839 Speaker 1: pay attention to Israel's ongoing war on Gaza, has drawn 167 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 1: more than forty four million shares on Instagram in less 168 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: than forty eight hours, highlighting a renewed social media push 169 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: by supporters of Palestinians following a deadly Israeli airstrike. So 170 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: Rafa is a city split between Egypt and the Gaza 171 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: Strip that serves as the only crossing point between them, 172 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: so it's an important spot for aid and supplies and 173 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: food to go into Gaza. So, if you haven't seen it, 174 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: the image is AI generated and it shows tents in 175 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: a camp arranged to spell out the phrase all Eyes 176 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: on Ratha. Rafa is a city split between Egypt and 177 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: the Gaza Strip and serves as the only crossing point 178 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: between them, so it's an important spot for aid supplies 179 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: and food to go into Gaza. The area is in 180 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: the southern part of Gaza and it's filled with refugee 181 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: tent camps where local officials said that at least forty 182 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: five civilians died after an Israeli strike on Sunday. But 183 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: the image that went viral on Instagram is not a 184 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:53,079 Speaker 1: real image of Ratha. It is pretty clearly AI generated. 185 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty clearly AI generated. 186 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 2: It's shows like thousands of tends in a very orderly 187 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 2: way that does not match any of the actual photos 188 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 2: that we've seen come out of that part of Gaza. 189 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 2: But so if it's pretty clearly AI generated, then why 190 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,359 Speaker 2: didn't it get labeled on Instagram? 191 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: Great question? I don't know. My best guess is body moderation. 192 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: But honestly, at this point, your guests is as good 193 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: as mine. Meta has really talked up their efforts to 194 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: label AI generated images, although there are like plenty of 195 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: gaps in those rules. According to the Washington Post, the 196 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: all eyes on Ratha image appears on Instagram without a 197 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: label calling it out as AI generated. The company does 198 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: not appear to have taken any action to remove it, 199 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: and then when the Washington Post asked Meta why they 200 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: didn't label it, Meta did not reply. So we don't know. 201 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,439 Speaker 3: Strange, Okay, So where does the phrase come from? 202 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: Well. According to Mashable, the slogan all Eyes on Ratha 203 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: has been repeated for months. It was initially coined by 204 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,959 Speaker 1: doctor Rick Pepercorn, a World Health Organization director. Pepercorn said 205 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: this back in February, when an Israeli invasion into Ratha 206 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: was still then just a possibility. It hadn't happened yet. 207 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: In a press briefing from RATHA, Peppercorn said that this 208 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: would be a quote unfathomable catastrophe, further of expanding the 209 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: humanitarian disaster beyond all imagination. All eyes are on Ratha, 210 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: declared Pepercorn. We all watch the news and we all 211 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 1: get the stories about this possible incursion, and military activities 212 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: are getting closer. This should not happen. There's no place 213 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: for people to go. This is a desperate plea. Yes, 214 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 1: contingency plans are being made, but they would be completely insufficient. 215 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: According to four or four Media, the image originated with 216 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:45,119 Speaker 1: a photographer in Malaysia's Instagram account. The user's own Instagram 217 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: links to charity fundraising pages for Palestinian Aid and has 218 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: a mix of real images and video and then like 219 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: highly shareable AI generated images kind of similar to that 220 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,119 Speaker 1: All Eyes on Ratha image. 221 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 2: Why do you suppose it took off on Instagram specifically? 222 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: So, there are a couple of reasons I think this 223 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: happened on Instagram specifically. Instagram has really emerged as an 224 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: important platform for amplifying information about Palestine, which is kind 225 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: of fraught given the way that content about Palestine and 226 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: news content in general is being moderated on the platform. 227 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:22,439 Speaker 1: For instance, earlier this month, Instagram's oversight board was debating 228 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: whether or not the phrase from the river to the 229 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: sea violates the platform's rules, including their ban on hate speech, 230 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: and like just the other day, Adam MOSERI was trying 231 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: to clarify new rules about how political content would be 232 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: moderated in general on the platform, which I have to 233 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: be honest, I don't fully understand what their plan is, 234 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: what they're trying to say. I don't feel like I 235 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: have a good read on what they consider political content. 236 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,079 Speaker 1: But Instagram has really played an important role in amplifying 237 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: information about what's happening in Palestine right now. 238 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 2: Just one more example of how bananas it is that 239 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 2: we live in a world where Instagram and Meta get 240 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 2: to make these enormous decisions about what kind of content 241 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 2: we see related to extremely serious events happening around the 242 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 2: world that like really do have an impact on all 243 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 2: of us. Like it feels far away, but there are 244 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,119 Speaker 2: a lot of ways that you know, it really. 245 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 3: Impacts us all. 246 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 2: So this, uh, you know, there's obviously been a lot 247 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 2: of content online about what's happening in Palestine. 248 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 3: Why do you suppose that this particular image went so viral. 249 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: Well, probably one of the biggest reasons is just the 250 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: ease of posting it. It was posted using Instagram's ad 251 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: Yours feature, which, like, without just that one click or 252 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 1: really I guess two clicks, you can quickly and easily 253 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: add an image to your story without even really thinking 254 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: about it. This is true for me, but like your 255 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: mileage may vary. I also think there's something about the 256 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 1: fact that people were sharing this mostly on their Instagram 257 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: story as opposed to adding it to their Instagram grid. 258 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: I think that things can really take off on stories 259 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 1: because of the quickness that you can post them, and 260 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: because they only last for however long, they don't last forever, 261 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: and so I think that people are more prone to 262 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: share things on the story because it's just so quick. Also, 263 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: a lot of critics of the image. Have pointed out 264 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: that like, journalists have died or been hurt to get 265 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: images about what is actually happening in Gaza online, and 266 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: that it's like disrespectful to share an AI generated image 267 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: when those real images exist, or like why not use 268 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: art from an actual human Palestinian artist as opposed to 269 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: AI generated art. But I actually suspect that one of 270 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: the reasons why the image is AI generated is specifically 271 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: to be able to skirt Instagram's moderation policies. Like I 272 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: think had they used a real image of what's happening 273 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: in Rapha, there is no way that that image would 274 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: be shared by millions of people because it would probably 275 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: be moderated off of the platform. 276 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 3: Wait, that's did you just say that? 277 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 2: You think it's possible that had this bit real image 278 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 2: it would have been more heavily moderated, but specifically because 279 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 2: it was AI generated, it was able to spread more widely. 280 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: I think that's exactly right. So NBC reports that while 281 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: the all eyes on Ratha image has spread quickly, video 282 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: from Ratha posted by Palestinian journalists has been restricted and 283 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: in some cases removed from social media for depicting the 284 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: graphic aftermath of the Israeli strikes. Two of three Instagram 285 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: posts showing burned and grievously injured and dead bodies after 286 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: the recent strike were removed, and one had a sensitive 287 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: content filter for quote graphic or violent content placed in 288 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: front of it. An Instagram spokesperson said that the company 289 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: removed that content due to its violent and graphic nature, 290 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: which it said violated the platform's policies. So it does 291 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: seem to be that these platforms are saying that in 292 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: some cases, the reality, the actual images and video and 293 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: content and footage coming from Palestine is deemed too graphic 294 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: to be shown on these platforms. So I do think 295 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: that had this been a real image from Ratha, I 296 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 1: don't think that millions of people would be able to 297 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: post it, just by the nature of what we already 298 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: know around the kinds of content coming out of Palestine 299 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: that Instagram and Facebook and Meta are currently moderating off 300 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:13,479 Speaker 1: the platform. 301 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. 302 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 2: Boy, that's a really interesting take, because I think a 303 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 2: more sanitized version is exactly what it is. 304 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 3: You know, it looks. 305 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 2: Cold and hopeless and desperate, but there's no people in 306 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 2: the image, Like there's no people in the image, which 307 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 2: is just one of many cues that clearly it's AI. Yeah. 308 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: I mean it's certainly more sanitized, definitely a more sanitized 309 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: vision of what's actually happening in Ratha, and I do 310 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: think that's part of why it went viral. As Friend 311 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: of the Show Ryan Broderick over at the newsletter garbage 312 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: they put it. If you're desperate for a super concise 313 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: explanation as to how this random Malaysian user ended up 314 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: creating a post of the moment, it's because they basically 315 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: managed to do the impossible. They generated a pro Palestine 316 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 1: solidarity image vague and abstract enough to bypass both sensors 317 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: and filters on one of the biggest remaining social networks 318 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: that real people still use. So there's been a ton 319 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: of debate about this image, you know, after it went superviral, 320 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: like whether or not people should be reposting it. Full disclosure, 321 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: I reposted it. I remember when I reposted it, I 322 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: my finger hovered over the ad yours button and I thought, like, 323 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: should I repost this? Ultimately I did? I think judging 324 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: from the photographer who first shared this image, I do 325 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: think that image was initially shared with like good intentions. 326 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,239 Speaker 1: The person who shared it. You know, they share on 327 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:43,919 Speaker 1: their own Instagram. They share a lot of resources and 328 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: information about Palestine. But as for media points out, even 329 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: assuming the best intentions for the original poster, the success 330 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: of that image still led to the creation of hundreds 331 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: of copycat AI generated images made by other accounts basically 332 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 1: just trying to get to go viral, to the point 333 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: where when you search all Eyes on Ratha on either 334 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: Facebook or Instagram, the majority of what you get is 335 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: like AI generated copycat content. Far for media, they're out, 336 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:13,679 Speaker 1: we'll put the piece in the show notes. They found 337 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,199 Speaker 1: that already images sort of created in the style of 338 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: that AI generated one have really taken off, And I 339 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: think it illustrates a truism about the way that AI 340 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,640 Speaker 1: generated content strategies on social media, like move now, how 341 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: that kind of content works and moves on social media now, 342 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: Like a lot of the people posting it are just 343 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: trying to see what sticks or what hits. They're not 344 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 1: posting it because they care about whatever the image purports 345 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 1: to show or be about. They're just like, oh, this 346 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: image purporting to show Ratha hit it. Well, then I'm 347 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: going to make a million different versions of that and 348 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 1: see if any of those stick too. 349 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a different universe with these cheap, accessible 350 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 2: AI tools now because you can do that, you can 351 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 2: make literally a million and upload them all and you 352 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 2: only one to go viral. Right, It's just like spamming 353 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 2: the entire internet exactly. 354 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: It's one of the reasons why shrimp Jesus ai generated 355 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: images have gone viral, because one person made the AI 356 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: image of half shrimp, half Jesus, and that went viral 357 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: on Facebook. And now there's just like viral shrimp Jesus 358 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: ai generated content all over social media by copycats who 359 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 1: were like, oh, well, that one really hit it. Maybe 360 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: half shrimp, half Jesus is the sweet spot. Let's make 361 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: a million more. 362 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 2: God, it's like every day gets a little bit more 363 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 2: clear what it means to live in this new world 364 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 2: where anything that anybody creates can immediately and almost for free, 365 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 2: be recreated like a million times. 366 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: Yes, So I want to talk about sort of the 367 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 1: debate and the ethics of this image. So a whole 368 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 1: bunch of folks smarter than me have been weighing in 369 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: on this image, with some of them criticizing it basically 370 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: saying that it's another version of that black square that 371 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: people posted in twenty twenty that we actually did one 372 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: of our first episodes of the podcast about where people 373 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: just post this thing on social media and then feel 374 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: like they've done what they need to do. It's a 375 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,479 Speaker 1: kind of a self serving thing where they post it, 376 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: they feel good and it's done. 377 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 3: I can see that. You know. 378 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 2: It's like it feels like you're doing something by posting 379 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 2: or reposting. Like you said, is that you don't even 380 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 2: have to create a post. You just hit the add 381 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 2: to stories button. 382 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: An Instagram user with the handle islam MC said quote 383 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 1: it gives a space to lazy activism, to people who 384 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: never actually wanted to talk about the cause or don't 385 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: want to be controversial. It gives in the space to say, here, 386 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: you wanted me to talk about it, here, I posted 387 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: about it, now shut up. Honestly, I get that criticism, 388 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: and I want to speak carefully here because I also 389 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: think that we're in this time where people have maybe 390 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: gotten this message like there is a risk to speaking 391 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: up about this issue. So when people are given away 392 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: to do so in a way that feels like sanitized 393 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: or safer, and everybody else is doing it, maybe that 394 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: makes it feel easier or safer to also add their voice. 395 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: But I think that what some of the people who 396 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: are criticizing this are saying is that you know, this 397 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: image doesn't have any resources. It doesn't have any links 398 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: to more information, it doesn't have a link to donate. 399 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: It's not even really Ratha. It doesn't have any actual 400 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 1: Palestinian incident. Why are you posting this? How does this 401 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: help anybody? 402 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 2: Like? 403 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: What does this do other than makes me feel like 404 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: I'm adding my voice? But then I saw other people saying, well, 405 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: anything that shows that people are against what's happening in 406 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 1: Palestine is a good thing. Jason Akunde, the author of 407 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: the book Revolutionary Acts, Love and Brotherhood and Black Gay Britain, 408 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: tweeted the AI all eyes on Ratha post might feel 409 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: performative or frustrating, but honestly, Israel Palestine is a war 410 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: of public opinion and consensus. If it has become quote 411 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: trendy to stand against massacre of Palestinians, then that is 412 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 1: a net good. I don't think it can compared to 413 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: the BLM Black Squares, which were weirdly differential and based 414 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,679 Speaker 1: on this nebulous aim of quote listening and learning the 415 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: premise of this protest against the Onslaught and Rapa is 416 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: that we want the genocide to stop. That is a 417 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: clear achievable demand. Israeli politicians know that the war of 418 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,199 Speaker 1: a consensus is key to victory, which is why they 419 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: have a militarized communication strategy. If a random influencer is 420 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: sharing a post about Rapa after months of mindlessly posting, 421 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: this is an opportunity to seize not to be superior. 422 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: And I do think that that might be part of 423 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:40,199 Speaker 1: the conversation, right that social media by definition is always 424 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 1: going to be somewhat performative, and I think that because 425 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: of this feeling that people are watching to see if 426 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: you share the right thing the right way, it maybe 427 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: creates this tension. And because this is all happening in public, 428 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: because it's social media, I do think it risks overshadowing 429 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: the real issue. Like, as much as I have really 430 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: been tuned into some of the media and robust debate 431 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 1: about this image, I do not want a conversation about 432 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 1: the ethics of one AI generated post to overshadow conversations 433 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 1: about what is happening in Palestine. And I guess I 434 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: do think that we're in this space where people really 435 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 1: maybe don't know what to do and feel powerless and 436 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: feel like we're all witnessing something horrifying, but you're also 437 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 1: struggling to find agency of like, well, what can I 438 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: do and listen? We can post on social media, we 439 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,400 Speaker 1: can donate money, we can protest. If you're going to protest, 440 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: use our guides on how to do it safely. We'll 441 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 1: put them on the show notes. But I think that 442 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: that's why you're seeing these online movements that are calling 443 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: for people to, you know, block Kim Kardashian and solidarity 444 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: with Palestine that we talked about after the met ball. 445 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: I think people are looking for ways to feel like 446 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: they have agency. And I can understand not really knowing 447 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 1: what action to take and just smashing that share button 448 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: on Instagram like I did, even while not knowing if 449 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:00,679 Speaker 1: it was the right thing to do or not. And 450 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: I say all that to say that if you do 451 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: have extra money and you're thinking like what can I do? 452 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 1: You could give money to the Palaestindian Children's Relief Fund. 453 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 1: If you're in DC. One of my favorites, Boss in 454 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: the City Sun Cinema shut Out to SUNS is donating 455 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,199 Speaker 1: all bar money to the Palestinian Children's Relief Fund that 456 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: they take in on Saturday, June first. So I certainly 457 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: wouldn't act like I know the exact right thing to 458 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 1: be doing here, but I can tell you I can 459 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 1: share what I am trying to do, which is listening 460 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: to Palestinian voices, folks who are actually on the ground, 461 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,159 Speaker 1: amplifying what they put out, really trying to engage with 462 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: primary sources as much as I can, donating money to 463 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: organizations like the Palaestidian's Children's Relief Fund where I can, 464 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 1: and doing my best to educate myself and others. 465 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 4: More. 466 00:24:50,920 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 5: After a quick break, let's get right back into. 467 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: It, and speaking of AI generated content on social media, 468 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: new research from Google researchers and several fact checking organizations 469 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: have found that the most image based disinformation online right 470 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 1: now is now AI generated. However, the way that researchers 471 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: are collecting data might actually be undercounting the problem. Basically, 472 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: AI generated image based disinformation was not really a thing 473 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: until late twenty twenty three when AI image generators became 474 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: widely available and popular, But now they have basically replaced 475 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: all other forms of image based disinformation. So these AI 476 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: generated pictures of Rapa, even while they might might have 477 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 1: been initially shared for good, it is important to know 478 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 1: that that's not happening in a vacuum. And if images 479 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: like that go megaviral and encourage other people to copycat 480 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: AI generated images, we will just be a wash in images, 481 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: most of which are not real about a conflict that 482 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: is pretty serious. 483 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, gets harder and harder to know what really is, 484 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,679 Speaker 2: like true, you know, even mentioned that the account that 485 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 2: shared that photo had a mix of real photos that 486 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 2: were you know, photos that were taken of the world 487 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 2: and AI generated images, and the blurring of that line 488 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 2: is scary, right, Like, maybe one of the other things 489 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 2: that we can do is really try to put forth 490 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 2: that effort that's needed to use primary sources, like you say, 491 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 2: and make sure that we do everything we can to 492 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 2: have an accurate sense of what is actually happening in 493 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 2: the world and not just the narratives that are being promoted. 494 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 1: Absolutely, trying to engage as much as I can with 495 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: primary sources has been really fruitful. And you know, you 496 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,719 Speaker 1: can read this, you can read the summary. I mean, 497 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 1: I guess you're listening to me summarized stuff for you, right, 498 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,120 Speaker 1: now keep doing that, but as much as you can, 499 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: we put the primary sources in the show notes so 500 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 1: that you can engage with them. You know you should 501 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: do that? 502 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, oh absolutely, you know. 503 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 2: I'm yeah, and I think listeners have a right to 504 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 2: expect that. And all those other shows that aren't doing it, 505 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 2: listeners should stop listening them. 506 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 3: They should listen to our show. 507 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: Are you starting like a podcast? 508 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 3: Is there? 509 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 1: Is there a show in particular that you're thinking of, 510 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: because I'm I'm down for a podcast beef. I've been 511 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 1: saying it has been too long since I had a 512 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: good old fashioned beef. So if you are throwing down 513 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,199 Speaker 1: the gauntlet and we're gonna kick up a beef with 514 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: another podcast, I'm here for it. 515 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,360 Speaker 2: I didn't have anybody in mind, but you know, yeah, 516 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 2: maybe they should be unnoticed. Put your sources in your 517 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:49,199 Speaker 2: show notes. 518 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: We're coming for you. PJ. We didn't forget about what 519 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 1: happened at reply All. 520 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 3: Shit, Yeah I went there. Yes, we've got all these 521 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 3: AI generated es. 522 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 2: Is that it is that the only dangerous thing that 523 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:10,880 Speaker 2: AI has made cheaply and easily available that is poisoning 524 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 2: the minds and lives of a generation is that it. 525 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: That is not the only harm out there on social media. God, 526 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: I wish, because we have to talk about this really 527 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: upsetting report from BBC that is upsetting but maybe not 528 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: totally surprising, that found that criminals are producing and selling 529 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: guides to sextortion on social media. The guides show people 530 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,360 Speaker 1: how to pose as young women online and trick victims 531 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: into sending sexually explicit material over and then they can 532 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: use that material to financially blackmail them. 533 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 2: My god, this is one of the darkest things I 534 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 2: think we've talked about on this show in a while. 535 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we've talked about how these kinds of sextortion 536 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: schemes work and how they are mostly being used to 537 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,719 Speaker 1: target young men and boys, mostly being perpetrated by gangs 538 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: based in West Africa. However, what is new here is 539 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: that that criminals have added this extra stream of income 540 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: by creating and selling these guides to help other people 541 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: do this as well. That it's becoming a marketplace where 542 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: it's like, oh, you too can give me money and 543 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: I can show you how to make money by praying 544 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: on youth. So this is pretty serious. Kids are dying 545 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: because of it. In the UK. Two British teenagers are 546 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 1: known to have died by suicide since October twenty twenty 547 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: two after becoming victims of sextortion schemes. 548 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and even that underestimates the real scope of the 549 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 2: problem because a lot of people who are target in 550 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 2: these schemes don't die, but are still severely harmed by it. 551 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. Paul Rafel, an intelligence professional and export on sextortion, 552 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: says that this whole thing is a massive threat to children. 553 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: Paul says internet scammers over these past two years have 554 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: found out that they can get very rich, very quickly 555 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: by scamming an untapped market, and that's teenagers. He also 556 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: says that big tech companies are not doing nearly enough 557 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: to stop extore in surprise surprise, saying this crime has 558 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: really exploded on Instagram and Snapchat over the past two years. 559 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: These platforms need to aggressively go after these criminals. Now. 560 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: Snapchat did tell BBC we've been ramping up our efforts 561 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: to combat it, including a reporting option specifically for threats 562 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: to leak sexual content, and in app education for teens. 563 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: In a statement, Meta, which owns Instagram, said it offered 564 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 1: quote a dedicated reporting option so people can report anyone 565 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: threatening to share private images. We default teens under eighteen 566 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: in the UK into private Instagram accounts at sign up, 567 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: which hides their follower and following list into stricter default messaging. 568 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: Facebook said, and you know, I guess I agree that 569 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: they're just like not doing enough. We already know from 570 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: like multiple episodes that Instagram really is aware the way 571 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: that their product is being used to harm and target 572 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: use in sexualized ways, and like they really just like 573 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: aren't newing enough. I will agree that they're that like 574 00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: not enough it's being done. And I think this is 575 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: really heartbreaking because creeps are preying on the shame and 576 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: silence and secrecy that a young person would feel getting 577 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: mixed up in this. Like if you're a young person 578 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: who has gotten caught up in a sextortion ring, it's 579 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: got to be isolating and tough to talk about with 580 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: the adults in your life. And I think that people 581 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: who are doing this they know this, and they are 582 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: using that dynamic to prey on kids. Meanwhile, platforms aren't 583 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: doing enough to stop them. I do have another kind 584 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: of dark Internet thing to discuss, which is whether or 585 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: not parents whose children die by suicide have a right 586 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: to examine those kids' social media footprints. So over in 587 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: the UK, Ellen Rooum, the mother of a child who 588 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: died by suicide, has gathered more than one hundred thousand 589 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: signatures on a petition calling for social media companies to 590 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: be required to hand over data to parents after a 591 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: child has died. Under the current law, parents have no 592 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: legal right to see whether their child was being bullied 593 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: or threatened, was looking at self harm images or other 594 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: harmful content, or express suicidal feelings online, or searched online 595 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: to help with mental health problems. Room says this is wrong, 596 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: that her son left no indications of his motivation before 597 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: he died. The last time she saw him he seemed 598 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: happy and well adjusted, and that now she just has 599 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: no idea what happened. She says, it's really awful if 600 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: a child died of an illness, you do a post 601 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: mortem and work out what was wrong. It's not going 602 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: to bring my son back, and I'm not going to 603 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: stop grieving, but maybe just to understand what happened in 604 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: those last few hours, she said, because an hour and 605 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 1: a half before he left the house and there's video 606 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: of him saying goodbye to his friend, he was fine. 607 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: So what changed or what was going through his mind? 608 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: Any social media may give me the answers. Because her 609 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: petition got more than one hundred thousand signatures, there is 610 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: likely to be a debate in Parliament on this issue. 611 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: She was part of a group of parents that met 612 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: with both the government and Offcom, which is the UK's 613 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 1: communications regulator that regulates social media, radio, TV and other sectors. 614 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: The group included people like a man whose daughter died 615 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: by suicide after viewing harmful content online, and the parents 616 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: of another child who died after possibly taking part in 617 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 1: a social media challenge. As part of the Online Safety Act, 618 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 1: which went into effect on April first at this year, 619 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: coroners are now granted new powers that give them access 620 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: to social media and online gaming data when investigating a 621 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: child's potential suicide. However, even under that new Online Safety Act, 622 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: parents are still not entitled to access the data themselves, 623 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 1: and the ruling only applies to children who died by suicide, 624 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: not those, for example, who were maybe murdered by somebody 625 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: that they met online. 626 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 3: It's a tough one because. 627 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 2: Obviously you have to sympathize with these parents who've suffered 628 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 2: a terrible loss and have a right to want to 629 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 2: know what happened with the kid's life. But you know, 630 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 2: it does also open up a whole bunch of cans 631 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 2: of worms. I think of making kids social media posts available, 632 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 2: you know, like, where does the line of privacy for 633 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,240 Speaker 2: kids get drawn? 634 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,359 Speaker 3: It's, uh, it's a tough one, but yeah, this is. 635 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 1: Why I wanted to include it because I really cannot 636 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: imagine the grief of losing a child in this way, 637 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 1: and I then can't imagine the added grief of not knowing, 638 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 1: like if something impacted them in their last moments and 639 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: just not having insight into that. But I also don't 640 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 1: know enough about, yeah, the privacy ramifications of giving parents 641 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: that kind of access, and so it's a it's I 642 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,839 Speaker 1: think it's I think it's a conversation that really illustrates 643 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,800 Speaker 1: the complexity of where we're at when it comes to 644 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 1: social media right now, and kind of like what you 645 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:02,320 Speaker 1: were saying with the Palestine story, how much platforms are holding, 646 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 1: how much weight their decisions and their policies have, how 647 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 1: they impact youth and the mental health of youth, Like 648 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,320 Speaker 1: that is a lot of power that we're giving people 649 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: like Mark Zuckerberg and Ada Mosseri and Elon Musk. 650 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great point, you know, and it's. 651 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 2: These are tough, complicated issues, and historically politicians have just 652 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,360 Speaker 2: not dealt with them at all and left it to 653 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 2: the Zuckerbergs of the world to figure out how much 654 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 2: they can get away with before it starts cutting into 655 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 2: their bottom line. I guess it's good to see it 656 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 2: being debated in uh, you know, in a regulatory context 657 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 2: like this bridget We've got COVID retired and it hurts. 658 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 2: We have covered some pretty difficult stories today, Like I 659 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 2: don't know if this is just how you deal with 660 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 2: being sick, or maybe this is it's just been a 661 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,920 Speaker 2: rough week. Do we have anything lighter that we can 662 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 2: end this episode on? 663 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 1: Can I offer you some pizza made with glue? Michael? Yes? 664 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 3: Please? I love pizza, so. 665 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: You and I I should. People might hear some tension 666 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: or we're discussing this because we feel differently about this 667 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:23,319 Speaker 1: next story, right we do. 668 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 2: We talked about this ahead of time. Listeners might be 669 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,319 Speaker 2: interested to know that during the week we keep like 670 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 2: a running list of like a Google doc, where we're 671 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,359 Speaker 2: just adding ideas of stories that we might want to cover. 672 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 2: I try to add a bunch of stories, and then 673 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:44,320 Speaker 2: before the we record the episode, Bridget goes through deletes. 674 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,320 Speaker 3: All of my stories, add some new ones. 675 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 1: That's not true. I would say, like, I think you've 676 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 1: got like a solid like fifty fifty. And also it's 677 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,360 Speaker 1: because if you were in charge, it would be such 678 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: a fixed stories about hard tech that everybody will be like, 679 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: what are they talking about? But I'm why do they 680 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,359 Speaker 1: still it's like fifty to fifty half stories that you pick, 681 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 1: half stories that I pick. I don't. I don't delete 682 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: your stories, not unless they're really bad and like stupid 683 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:16,439 Speaker 1: and I don't want to talk about them. So yeah, 684 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,919 Speaker 1: you know what I do. I do delete your stories sometimes. 685 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 3: And that's good. 686 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 2: This is your show, it's and thank goodness it is 687 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,239 Speaker 2: because you're so much better at this than me. I'm 688 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 2: just I'm pleased some of them make it through the filter. 689 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 2: That's not the point here. The point is I put 690 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,879 Speaker 2: this story of the list thinking that it was gonna 691 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:33,959 Speaker 2: go one way, and then I looked through the notes 692 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 2: that you wrote and I was like, oh, Bridget like 693 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 2: really likes this, which is surprising to me because I 694 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 2: had a different reaction. 695 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,359 Speaker 1: Okay, why don't you tell people what we're talking about, 696 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 1: because they're like, I don't even know the story? What 697 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: else talking about? Maybe they do know the story, but 698 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:49,280 Speaker 1: why don't you fill us in. 699 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 2: The pizza glues story? So, uh, you know, people probably 700 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 2: eat or maybe no. I think it was last week 701 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 2: Google rolled out their new AI summary feature at the 702 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 2: top of search. So when you search, instead of well, 703 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 2: you still get your list of ten links buried behind 704 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 2: a bunch of sponsored nonsense, but at the very top 705 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 2: of your results, you're going to get an AI summary 706 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:22,360 Speaker 2: generated by Google's AI bot, Gemini that attempts to answer 707 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 2: the question that you Googled for, and then you can 708 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 2: scroll past it to go look at the links. 709 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 3: But there. I think we maybe talked. 710 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 2: About this a little while ago that there's a lot 711 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:35,399 Speaker 2: of concern that this is going to really just fundamentally 712 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:40,320 Speaker 2: change search because you type in a question to Google, 713 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 2: you hit enter and boom, there's an answer right at 714 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:44,920 Speaker 2: the top of the page. And so why would you 715 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,360 Speaker 2: look beyond that to go to those primary sources that 716 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 2: we were just talking about a couple of minutes ago, 717 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 2: And they rolled out this product, and the Internet, or 718 00:38:56,080 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 2: at least my little corner of it has just flooded 719 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 2: with screenshots of Google's AI summary getting it wrong because 720 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:11,760 Speaker 2: they scraped a lot of Reddit posts to teach the model, 721 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 2: like what the world is, so it can have information 722 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 2: to spit back to us. It really highly ranks what 723 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 2: people wrote on Reddit. But Reddit, a lot of redditors 724 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 2: use humor and sarcasm. That's the thing that exists on Reddit. 725 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 2: And so like this one screenshot that was going around 726 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 2: was about how to make a pizza, and it had 727 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 2: a line that was something like, you know, if you 728 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 2: want a thicker sauce, you could add a little bit 729 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 2: of glue. 730 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: So I gotta stop because a verge collected some of 731 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: the best incorrect answers that Google now provides to questions. 732 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 1: Google claims that former US President James Madison graduated from 733 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 1: the University of Wisconsin, not once, but some times. That 734 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 1: a dog has played in the NBA, NFL, and NHL. 735 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: Shout out to Airbud. There's no Rubbi. 736 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,360 Speaker 2: There's gonna talk about basketball playing dogs in this episode. 737 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: Listen, I have COVID, let me have this. There's no 738 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 1: rule that says a dog can't play in the NHL. Also, 739 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,840 Speaker 1: my personal favorite that according to geologists that you see Berkeley, 740 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,319 Speaker 1: you should eat at least one small rock per day. 741 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:34,360 Speaker 3: It's like, we're all chickens. Chickens eat rocks. 742 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, chickens eat rock that rocks. That little like gizzard 743 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 2: thing that hangs down from their throat. They got little 744 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 2: rocks in there to help grind up their food. 745 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 1: Oh Lord and case listeners don't know microw up on 746 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:46,759 Speaker 1: a farm. Is this your type five about growing up 747 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:47,239 Speaker 1: on a farm. 748 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,479 Speaker 2: No, it's just a joke about eating one small rock 749 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:51,879 Speaker 2: per day. 750 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 3: Like if you were a chicken, that might not be enough. 751 00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 1: So even for chickens who are using Google, they're like, 752 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,240 Speaker 1: I don't know if these responses are on the money, 753 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:04,760 Speaker 1: it should be more than one small rock. 754 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that just illustrates the perils of trying to 755 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 2: design a product for everybody. 756 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 3: You know, you're just not gonna please anybody, humans or chickens. 757 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 1: Okay, so when you asked Google how to get your 758 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:17,840 Speaker 1: cheese to stick better to the crust when you're making pizza, 759 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,799 Speaker 1: Google said to add glue. The reason why you put 760 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,359 Speaker 1: it on the agenda to talk about last week, which 761 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,759 Speaker 1: we didn't talk about, was that a tech journalist actually 762 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 1: tried this recipe business insiders. Katie anopolists said, I knew 763 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,960 Speaker 1: my assignment. I had to make the Google glue pizza. 764 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,120 Speaker 1: Don't try this at home. I risked myself for the 765 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,279 Speaker 1: sake of the story. But you shouldn't. So you put 766 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 1: this on the agenda. You come to look at the 767 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 1: outline that I've come up with to make to like 768 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 1: do the fact check, blah blah blah, You're like, oh, 769 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,360 Speaker 1: I see your position on the glue eating is a 770 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,680 Speaker 1: you're pro. I was like, yeah, she's eating glue, awesome, 771 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:01,920 Speaker 1: But what were your thoughts? 772 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,839 Speaker 2: My thoughts were like, what a ridiculous little stunt, Like 773 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 2: it's just silly, Like you're not supposed to eat glue. 774 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,799 Speaker 2: The reason that those screenshots are funny is because it 775 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 2: says to eat glue, but everybody knows you're not supposed to. 776 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,320 Speaker 1: Well, Mike, if you read the primary source, you would 777 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,480 Speaker 1: know that Katie actually has a history of eating glue. 778 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,439 Speaker 1: She says, yes, since I know you're wondering, I did 779 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 1: eat paste as a kid. I loved it. So this 780 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 1: is not This is like not a stunt. This is 781 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 1: like her returning to form. 782 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 2: That does nothing for me, though, because it's not like 783 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:38,239 Speaker 2: she's continuing to eat glue today. She's just like a 784 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:42,080 Speaker 2: glue eater. Like I did read the story, I clicked 785 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 2: into her bio. She's a real journalist who writes like real. 786 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,239 Speaker 1: Journalist is and I like her. And if she wants 787 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 1: to come on the show and talk about the glue, 788 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:52,879 Speaker 1: I would love to have. You won't be a part 789 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:54,840 Speaker 1: of that episode, Mike, since you lis such an attitude 790 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,759 Speaker 1: about it. But Katie, if you're listening, I like that 791 00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 1: you ate the glue. I'm not gonna shame you for 792 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,160 Speaker 1: eating the glue. Come on the podcast and talk about it. 793 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 1: Mike won't be on. I want us talk about the glue. 794 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,440 Speaker 3: But like, really, why did she eat the glue? 795 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 1: Because Google told her to. 796 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 2: Google tells us to do so many things that we 797 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 2: don't have to do them. We're humans, we have agency 798 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:15,799 Speaker 2: for a little bit. 799 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 3: Yet she was. 800 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 1: Proving a point that about search, that search has gotten 801 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: so bad that the examples that they're giving like it 802 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,279 Speaker 1: be it'd be foolish for somebody to do it. 803 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,040 Speaker 3: So she did it, but to what end? 804 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:30,399 Speaker 1: Right? 805 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 2: Like she was the internet was full of memes about 806 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:37,759 Speaker 2: how bad Google Search was or at least you know 807 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,879 Speaker 2: the AI summary. It wasn't like she was adding on 808 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,200 Speaker 2: or adding to understanding of how this new thing is 809 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:46,000 Speaker 2: gonna change search. 810 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:47,760 Speaker 3: She was just trying to get some clicks. 811 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:49,840 Speaker 1: Listen. I think she took it to the next level. 812 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,920 Speaker 1: And honestly, when she accepts her pulitzer, where are you 813 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:55,799 Speaker 1: going to be? I'll tell you where you're gonna be. 814 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,960 Speaker 1: Not eating glue and pizza, That's what. Also, she didn't 815 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,759 Speaker 1: just eat glue. She mixed glue into pizza sauce and 816 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,920 Speaker 1: then made a homemade pizza. And I guess because she 817 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,920 Speaker 1: was using like a jarred pizza sauce. She said, for 818 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,240 Speaker 1: anybody who feels compelled to point out that I shouldn't 819 00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:14,200 Speaker 1: have used jarred sauce or pre shrided cheese, please keep 820 00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:17,120 Speaker 1: in mind, I'm eating glue here. How do you not 821 00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 1: love that? 822 00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,160 Speaker 2: Yes, it's kind of funny. It's like it's somewhere between 823 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 2: Jackass and that video of did you ever se the 824 00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:33,800 Speaker 2: video of some local journalists who went down to the 825 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,759 Speaker 2: police station to test out a taser and he was 826 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,600 Speaker 2: gonna like show how tasers work and he had them 827 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:40,239 Speaker 2: taze him. 828 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:42,600 Speaker 1: He like falls over it. 829 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,840 Speaker 3: I have to because it looks. 830 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,799 Speaker 2: Like it really hurts, and I have to, like, I 831 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:54,040 Speaker 2: feel like eating glue for the story is kind of 832 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,240 Speaker 2: like getting tased for the story. 833 00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,240 Speaker 1: So I guess you don't want any of this glue 834 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:00,479 Speaker 1: pizza that I I made. 835 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,359 Speaker 2: No, I don't. I love pizza anything on it, but 836 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,160 Speaker 2: not glue. Glue's not food. Glue is not food, Bridget. 837 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,200 Speaker 1: It's a bold stance, but I guess it's a great 838 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 1: one to end on. Hey, real quick, before you go, 839 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:16,200 Speaker 1: this is future Bridget and I have a little bit 840 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,960 Speaker 1: of breaking news glue vindication for you, because the day 841 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 1: after Mike and I recorded this episode, Google announced they'd 842 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:25,600 Speaker 1: be taking steps to limit the use of joke replies 843 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:29,160 Speaker 1: and user generated responses from places like credit in the 844 00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:33,640 Speaker 1: AI overview summaries now appearing in search. Katie Annapolis, who 845 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,040 Speaker 1: ate the glue, had a bit of a victory lap 846 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,560 Speaker 1: about it, and a new piece for Business Insider called 847 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:40,800 Speaker 1: sometimes to save the Internet. 848 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:41,920 Speaker 3: You must eat glue. 849 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,879 Speaker 1: Katie writes, there was a whole lot of attention paid 850 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,200 Speaker 1: in the past week about how bad many of these 851 00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,840 Speaker 1: AI generated search results were, particularly because they were wacky 852 00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,000 Speaker 1: and funny. Was Google's response to tamp down it's big 853 00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,239 Speaker 1: AI search ambitions just because of a few jokesters on 854 00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:01,080 Speaker 1: x made silly queries. Maybe did it be because Google 855 00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,680 Speaker 1: took the feedback seriously and realized that there were use 856 00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,320 Speaker 1: cases they had not expected and they needed to retool 857 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,799 Speaker 1: based on this new information. Maybe could it be a 858 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,520 Speaker 1: combination of those two things that a small minority of 859 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,840 Speaker 1: trolls abusing the system for laughs revealed some serious flaws 860 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,400 Speaker 1: and dangers of putting AI in search results. That it 861 00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:20,960 Speaker 1: wasn't just a pr disaster for a week, but made 862 00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:24,640 Speaker 1: Google seriously rethink the safety of the aioverbuse product and 863 00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:28,120 Speaker 1: what it would actually be used for. Most likely, but 864 00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:32,719 Speaker 1: Katie writes, let's not overlook one crucial factor here. Me 865 00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,279 Speaker 1: I actually ate the glue pizza. It did not taste good, 866 00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,200 Speaker 1: and please do not do this at home. The fact 867 00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:41,400 Speaker 1: that Google rolled this out with such easily exploitable flaws 868 00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,759 Speaker 1: that was bad. But fixing it that's good. And I 869 00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,560 Speaker 1: like to convince myself that my eating glue pizza was 870 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,840 Speaker 1: part of the noise that prompted Google to act. Please please, 871 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,360 Speaker 1: I don't need your thanks. I'm just doing my job. 872 00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,600 Speaker 1: As they say, not all heroes wear capes, some just 873 00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:00,160 Speaker 1: eat glue. Katie, I agree, you are the hero the 874 00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:06,040 Speaker 1: internet needs. Mike. Thank you for being here. Even though 875 00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,120 Speaker 1: your opinion about Katie eating glue is bad, we still 876 00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,359 Speaker 1: like to have you around. Thanks so much, and thanks 877 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:12,360 Speaker 1: to all of you for listening. 878 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,680 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Bridget and I hope you feel 879 00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:16,799 Speaker 2: better soon you too. 880 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:23,160 Speaker 1: I feel like our COVID miss people are listening. I'm sorry, 881 00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,560 Speaker 1: That's all I can say. 882 00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,839 Speaker 4: This was a silly one, I think. 883 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:32,399 Speaker 1: If you're looking for ways to support the show, check 884 00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,360 Speaker 1: out our March store at tangody dot com. 885 00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:35,040 Speaker 4: Slash Store. 886 00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:38,239 Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or 887 00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:40,200 Speaker 1: just want to say hi? You can reach us at 888 00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:42,920 Speaker 1: Hello at tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts 889 00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:45,359 Speaker 1: for today's episode at TENG Goody dot com. There Are 890 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:47,440 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet was created by Me Bridget Hi. 891 00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,080 Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio, an unboss creative edited by 892 00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:55,200 Speaker 1: Joey pat Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Tari Harrison 893 00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,040 Speaker 1: is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amada is our 894 00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,120 Speaker 1: contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want 895 00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,560 Speaker 1: to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple podcasts. 896 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,160 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, 897 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,680 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.