Speaker 1: M Cumberland Gap. Was that so important because coming from
Speaker 1: the Eastern colonies, from the Carolina's, from Tennessee, that was
Speaker 1: the way. It was a hard thing to go do
Speaker 1: and they knew that to do it, to try to
Speaker 1: pull it off, they knew it was risky. They knew
Speaker 1: it was a major undertaking. You had to scout it,
Speaker 1: you had the plan. It was like a thing. On
Speaker 1: this episode of the Beargrease Podcast, were on part two
Speaker 1: of our series on the Incredible Life of the American
Speaker 1: Backwoodsman Daniel Boone. We're gonna dive in deep, like over
Speaker 1: your head deep into a topographic feature in the Appalachian
Speaker 1: Mountains that was a major player in the identity of
Speaker 1: Old d Boone and America. We're talking about the Cumberland Gap.
Speaker 1: We'll interview to New York Times best selling off there's
Speaker 1: some Boone experts, Stephen Ronnella and Robert Morgan, will nerd
Speaker 1: out with the geologist, will talk about the potential historical
Speaker 1: revision of Boone. And lastly we'll talk with a member
Speaker 1: of the Cherokee Nation and hear his perspective on the
Speaker 1: Old Gap. The path is rough, an American identity is
Speaker 1: at stake. You're not gonna wanna miss this one, and
Speaker 1: do me a favor, give yourself a pop quiz. What
Speaker 1: do you know about the Cumberland Gap. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Maybe the weather is nicer, maybe there's more games, and
Speaker 1: it gets rewarded because it is. Boy, it's like people
Speaker 1: moving because they just gotta know, they gotta go see.
Speaker 1: My name is Clay Nukelem and this is the Bear
Speaker 1: Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search
Speaker 1: for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the
Speaker 1: story of Americans who lived their lives close to the land.
Speaker 1: Presented by f HF gear, American made, purpose built hunting
Speaker 1: and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as
Speaker 1: the places we explore back Daniel Boone's passing through the
Speaker 1: Cumberland Gap has been mythologized in American culture. They've written
Speaker 1: songs about it, made movies, written poems, and made art.
Speaker 1: I've got the reprint of the famous eighteen fifty two
Speaker 1: painting by George Bingham in My House. It depicts Boone
Speaker 1: leading his family in a group of settlers through the
Speaker 1: rugged Gap. The mountains around him are dark and ominous,
Speaker 1: but beautiful white bathes Boon's figure, making him look almost angelic.
Speaker 1: To understand Dan Boone, We've got to understand the Cumberland Gap. Okay.
Speaker 1: Tell me everything you know about the Cumberland Gap. Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: that will not take very long. The only thing I
Speaker 1: know about the Cumberland Gap is that folk musicians like
Speaker 1: to write about it in their songs. Where are you from? So,
Speaker 1: do you have a sense of where the Cumberland Gap
Speaker 1: is in relation to Michigan? I know it is South Michigan.
Speaker 1: Tell me everything you know about the Cumberland Gap, the
Speaker 1: Cumberland Gap. Nothing, Cumberland Gap, Cumberland Gap. I want to say,
Speaker 1: it's somewhere in the wild, wild West. I want to say,
Speaker 1: maybe there's a grocery store. I want to say a
Speaker 1: Cumberland Grab grocery store. That's all I got. Hey, guys,
Speaker 1: tell me everything you know. We'll start with you. Everything
Speaker 1: you know about the Cumberland Gap. Is that like a
Speaker 1: fault line or something? I don't know. You tell me,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think I've heared the Cumberland Gap.
Speaker 1: Do you know what? I don't know what it is?
Speaker 1: You don't know anything about the Cumberland Gap. I feel
Speaker 1: like if you mentioned it, I would, but I don't know.
Speaker 1: I can't think. Come on, there's one more guy standing.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I don't know. I was struck out on
Speaker 1: the Cumberland Gap. This is embarrassing. Josh Landbridge spilmmaker, do
Speaker 1: you know anything about the Cumberland Gap? The Cumberland Gap,
Speaker 1: I know is in some songs. I know that there
Speaker 1: is a gap named after General Cumberland. He had quite
Speaker 1: a mustache if I remember, Are you being serious? How
Speaker 1: do you know that you just made that up? It's
Speaker 1: not too far from the truth, because the Cumberland Gap
Speaker 1: was named after the Duke of Cumberland. Dead serious. He
Speaker 1: probably had a nice mustache. That song is called Cumberland Gap.
Speaker 1: It's been played by a string band out of Ohio
Speaker 1: called the Wayfarers. I'm continuing to build on the assumption
Speaker 1: that the average American doesn't know much about Daniel Boone,
Speaker 1: and we're exploring how despite that, this backwoodsman's influence on
Speaker 1: the American worldview was notable. In Part one, we learned
Speaker 1: that archetypes are the mechanism of this powerful culture building weapon.
Speaker 1: They deliver a value system through branding around the lives
Speaker 1: of our heroes or villains. After some time, the values remain,
Speaker 1: but the original life the host is often forgotten. And
Speaker 1: this is just the point. Daniel Boone did stuff that
Speaker 1: captured the attention of America and the world in a
Speaker 1: vulnerable time period when we were looking for identity. The
Speaker 1: prime of his life was in the seventeen seventies, a
Speaker 1: time when many of our heroes were birth and old.
Speaker 1: Dan stepped up to the plate and, in true Americana fashion,
Speaker 1: became a representative man, the courageous explorer, engaging and thriving
Speaker 1: in the wilderness and bringing civilization with him. He delivered
Speaker 1: parts of the American dream to America. I'll point out
Speaker 1: that this was a new identity for planet Earth, at
Speaker 1: least this version of it, and it had ravish appeal.
Speaker 1: In Part one, we left the Burgaras podcast world in
Speaker 1: a massive cliffhanger, with Daniel Boone and John Finley finding
Speaker 1: the Cumberland Gap and going into the frontier of Kentucky
Speaker 1: in seventeen sixty nine. We're gonna nerd out on the
Speaker 1: Cumberland Gap and we'll hear first hand from Boone what
Speaker 1: happened on that first trip into Kentucky. Well sort of,
Speaker 1: it's complicated, but there's a bigger question at hand. Why
Speaker 1: were they risking life and limb to get into Kentucky?
Speaker 1: And an even bigger question is this, why is there
Speaker 1: this deep history of human geographic dispersion. Old Steve ronnella
Speaker 1: meet eater, has something to say about this. I introd
Speaker 1: him up right on part one, and he's got all
Speaker 1: the street cred or should I say backwoods cred. He's
Speaker 1: a New York Times bestselling author, a hunter, and a
Speaker 1: noted boon expert. Here's Steve. There's a kind of a
Speaker 1: theory of human movement around the earth where or shouldn't
Speaker 1: say a theory. Way to imagine human movement around the
Speaker 1: earth so often is that it's you're propelled by warfare
Speaker 1: and starvation, human migrations under dear rest. So with people,
Speaker 1: you know, in the nineteen thirties, right, you have Jews
Speaker 1: escaping Europe, you know, and maybe coming trying to escape
Speaker 1: the coming holocaust and get to the United States, or
Speaker 1: just you know, different things like migrations in Ethiopia from
Speaker 1: famine and that, and that moves people. There's also this
Speaker 1: this aspect of that it has been just driven by curiosity.
Speaker 1: Human migrations into the New World. Are human migrations into
Speaker 1: the Western hemisphere, you can't really look at and explain
Speaker 1: it like that. They were being pushed along by warfare,
Speaker 1: being pushed along by overpopulation. They were moving from like wilderness,
Speaker 1: like a wilderness setting, to a wilderness setting, oftentimes across
Speaker 1: the tremendous hurdles, probably crossing ice sheets, crossing glaciers that
Speaker 1: are coming down valleys. You have no idea, no one's
Speaker 1: ever been there before. You, you have no idea what's
Speaker 1: on the other side of the glacier, if anything, But
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, you gotta go look. And there's a
Speaker 1: practical aspect, like I don't know, maybe the weather is nicer,
Speaker 1: maybe there's more game, and it gets rewarded because it is.
Speaker 1: But it's like people moving because they just got to know.
Speaker 1: They gotta go see. Is it dangerous? Was it dangerous
Speaker 1: across a glacier when you had never met or talked
Speaker 1: to or heard about anybody who had ever lived south
Speaker 1: there before. As far as you, you're just going into
Speaker 1: the absolute unknown, but you're dying to know. And I
Speaker 1: think that you, like, you can't ignore that aspect of
Speaker 1: what that must have seemed like to guys. Sure, Boone's
Speaker 1: like a market hunter, he hunts hides for a living,
Speaker 1: but the god there has to have been an enormous
Speaker 1: amount of curiosity about it. The reason it's so safe
Speaker 1: to assume that is because the Cumberland Gap was a
Speaker 1: very literal for them, like a very literal pathway into
Speaker 1: a relatively untapped hunting ground. These guys were hunting stuff
Speaker 1: that have been hunted by people prior to them. They
Speaker 1: made a living off it. Here's a place to go
Speaker 1: where the Euro Americans, like your peers, haven't tapped it
Speaker 1: out yet. It's supposed to be loaded with buffalo, loaded
Speaker 1: with deer, loaded without, loaded with beaver. So it's like, yeah, man,
Speaker 1: you go there and make a lot of money. But
Speaker 1: think about how we now feel like still today, when
Speaker 1: we're not tied to the market incentives. We still dream
Speaker 1: about and talk about the secret spots, the secret hunting
Speaker 1: places that haven't been tapped out. So it's like, to them,
Speaker 1: was this literal gap that you could use to get
Speaker 1: into the good hunting ground. But for us, it's like,
Speaker 1: you can just get it. It works perfectly well as
Speaker 1: nothing but a metaphor for like a passage, like a
Speaker 1: keyhole that you go through that brings you into like
Speaker 1: the dream landscape upon which you live your life. I
Speaker 1: think that's why we still sit around here talking about
Speaker 1: it today. It had to have existed in both ways.
Speaker 1: To Boon, it had to exist as a literal thing like, no,
Speaker 1: there's this big mountain. It's really hard to get through.
Speaker 1: You can't really get over there, but there's a way
Speaker 1: to do it. Okay, that's cool. But also like that
Speaker 1: curiosity element was there too, Man, it was both. Do
Speaker 1: you think that is that's deep inside of us as
Speaker 1: humans at like a d N A granular level. Oh,
Speaker 1: I mean it has to be, man, I mean it's
Speaker 1: so hard to understand like how that stuff manifest But
Speaker 1: you put it this way if you want to explain, like, well,
Speaker 1: I would it be that way? Why are humans like that?
Speaker 1: Because it's rewarded. It's rewarded, there has been. You may die, yeah,
Speaker 1: but but you may get a big reward. You might
Speaker 1: also just if you imagine like as a species, like
Speaker 1: moving or moving across landscape, going to new places. There's
Speaker 1: a danger to it, but imagine the reward that you
Speaker 1: get into a place where you have unlimited access to land,
Speaker 1: you have unlimited access to game, You're able to produce
Speaker 1: many children and have place for them to stick around.
Speaker 1: Like there's an advantage too being out on the at
Speaker 1: like being making the discoveries and finding things another way
Speaker 1: to look at them. And it kind of like almost
Speaker 1: defies Like you know, it's so hard to imagine, but
Speaker 1: imagine the first Polynesians who were rewarded with landing in
Speaker 1: Hawaii just they were just heading out on big blue
Speaker 1: Ocean's like, oh, here's a giant land mass that no
Speaker 1: one lives on, and we'll now have like st angering
Speaker 1: population growth and established this whole new culture on this
Speaker 1: untapped landscape that we don't need to fight to get right.
Speaker 1: It's like it is an enormous reward. Or then you
Speaker 1: have all the people that probably sailed off into the
Speaker 1: South Pacific never to be seen again and died to thirst.
Speaker 1: So do you think or you get a big island
Speaker 1: there seems to be and I think we would see
Speaker 1: this still inside of humanity today manifested in different ways.
Speaker 1: But there are people like Boon that push the edge
Speaker 1: and they're there are settlers. There are people that stay
Speaker 1: where they're at and they find gratification for life in
Speaker 1: insecurity and staying safe. There's much to be said for
Speaker 1: the latter, But then there's also there's much reward for
Speaker 1: those who have this wandered list and that defined Boone's lot,
Speaker 1: defined his life. Human movement implies that humans have to
Speaker 1: deal with the actual topography of the Earth. I think
Speaker 1: we need to understand topographically what a gap is. I
Speaker 1: know just the guy to talk with. Dr Greg Dumont
Speaker 1: is the geology professor at the University of Arkansas. I'm
Speaker 1: interested in understanding the geologic history of this gap that
Speaker 1: helped define Boone's life and build an empire, and if
Speaker 1: why the gap sits almost slap on the spot where Virginia,
Speaker 1: Tennessee Kentucky touch. However, most of the actual mountain pass
Speaker 1: is in Virginia. Meet Dr Dumont. Dr Dumont, I am
Speaker 1: trying to understand two things what a gap is from
Speaker 1: a geologic standpoint, because we throw out this term a gap,
Speaker 1: the Cumberland Gap, in such a way that we just
Speaker 1: assumed that everybody knows what that is. So I want
Speaker 1: to understand what a gap is is. But then the
Speaker 1: second thing I want to understand is why the Cumberland Gap,
Speaker 1: even from a topographic perspective, was so special. Talk to
Speaker 1: me about like how a gap would be formed in
Speaker 1: the Appalachian Mountains. Well, gaps throughout any sort of mountain
Speaker 1: belt across the world are sort of a product of
Speaker 1: erosion of rock that's been uplifted to make the mountain
Speaker 1: in the first place, and erosion works preferentially, for example,
Speaker 1: on the rocks that are weakest, so like a shield
Speaker 1: versus the granite. Uh. If there are places where the
Speaker 1: mountains or rocks have been fractured, you might have faults
Speaker 1: that slid and they introduce a place where erosion can
Speaker 1: can happen and create that notch or gap that would
Speaker 1: allow people to pass through it. Other places, like if
Speaker 1: you were in the Himalayas, you'd have glaciers that are
Speaker 1: creating some of those notches that you could pass over.
Speaker 1: And the term notch gap pass applies universally. You know,
Speaker 1: you can look across the US and the rockies up
Speaker 1: in Canada in the Appalachians and see similar features and
Speaker 1: not all of them are caused by the same things.
Speaker 1: The Appalachians were the product of several mountain building events,
Speaker 1: But one that was really prominent is what's called the
Speaker 1: alleghany in orogeny. When you take continental crust and other
Speaker 1: material and you collide it together to make a mountain belt,
Speaker 1: you end up producing faults where some rocks slide up
Speaker 1: on top of another. In the Pine Mountain Thrust is
Speaker 1: the main structure that brings part of the Appalachians up
Speaker 1: on top of the adjacent rock. But then there are
Speaker 1: other faults. You know, everyone's familiar with the San Andrea's
Speaker 1: fault for example, and in that case, rocks are actually
Speaker 1: sliding past each other on a very steep fault, like
Speaker 1: uh Los Angeles is now creeping towards San Francisco, for example.
Speaker 1: And the fall that's unique in the Cumberland Gap is
Speaker 1: kind of like that. It's a steep fault where rocks
Speaker 1: have slid past each other, called the Rocky Face fault.
Speaker 1: And if you didn't have the juxtaposition of the Pine
Speaker 1: Mountain Thrust and the Rocky Face fault where they sit
Speaker 1: and intersect each other, it seems conceivable you wouldn't really
Speaker 1: had a gap. Really, So there's two different major forces
Speaker 1: working together that created to yeah, two faults that occur
Speaker 1: right in that vicinity that helped create the gap. And
Speaker 1: we talked about earlier how the rock type matters to
Speaker 1: and uh, some of the high ground that's held up
Speaker 1: along the ridges is a very resistant sandstone conglomerate rock,
Speaker 1: and so it helps to have rocks that are more
Speaker 1: resistant weathering. What kind of map would you call this?
Speaker 1: So you got pulled up here. So this is what's
Speaker 1: called a digital elevation model, and it's basically a three
Speaker 1: dimensional representation of what hunters would see as a topographic
Speaker 1: map that I don't know if anybody knows about this,
Speaker 1: but there is a huge impact creater that is just
Speaker 1: to the south west of what you're talking about. Is
Speaker 1: that a natural like there? It's well, I know it's
Speaker 1: uh not a league it is. So here's the topographic
Speaker 1: map and you can see it's a depression. So he's
Speaker 1: let me describe to you what I'm seeing. He's he's
Speaker 1: pointing at an impact crater which looks like, I mean,
Speaker 1: like an asteroid or something hit there. Is that right?
Speaker 1: That is what the current thinking is that here's a
Speaker 1: geologic map and you can see it's got this circular
Speaker 1: shape to it, and there is uh, pretty decent evidence
Speaker 1: that post deposition of these rocks and the Appalachian and
Speaker 1: rogen e something smack down and apparently this is one
Speaker 1: of the few places where coal is mined within an
Speaker 1: impact creator. Yeah. Geologists call these impact creators astro bleams.
Speaker 1: Daniel Boone had three interesting structures to negotiate along with
Speaker 1: all of the Native Americans prior to him and everybody
Speaker 1: trying to make the big trip across the Appalachians. Two
Speaker 1: intersecting faults, and an astro blam where an asteroid hit
Speaker 1: aided in forming the Cumberland Gap. I like connecting human
Speaker 1: history to grand things like mountain building that we have
Speaker 1: absolutely no control over but inflict a massive control on us.
Speaker 1: The Cumberland Gap is the biggest and best gap for
Speaker 1: a hundred miles in either direction, and forces above and
Speaker 1: below the earth helped make it that way. It's wild
Speaker 1: because no gap in the world has been more critical
Speaker 1: in building an empire than the Cumberland Gap. The gap
Speaker 1: is actually pretty new to people of European descent, but
Speaker 1: Native Americans have used it since before recorded history, and
Speaker 1: they call that the warriors Path or at the woman Ee.
Speaker 1: This gap connected the Iroquois Confederacy and the Cherokees in
Speaker 1: the South. The first recorded account of Europeans going through
Speaker 1: the Cumberland Gap dates back to the sixteen seventies, but
Speaker 1: Dr Thomas Walker officially named the gap it's European name anyway,
Speaker 1: in the seventeen fifties. Wild and ironic, this American gap
Speaker 1: was named after a straight up English chump, the Duke
Speaker 1: of Cumberland, because of his recent military escapade. And wouldn't
Speaker 1: you know it, they named the whole stinking Mountain range
Speaker 1: after this man, who never set foot in North America.
Speaker 1: Oh the injustice. The Shawnee, however, called the range was Oto,
Speaker 1: which means mountains where the deer are plentiful. Now I
Speaker 1: can get behind that. Dr Walker was a medical doctor,
Speaker 1: a land speculator in a woodsman who took good notes
Speaker 1: of his seventeen fifty travels into Kentucky. They hauled a
Speaker 1: pack of bear hounds with him and ate a lot
Speaker 1: of bear meat. Here's a couple of wild stories. One
Speaker 1: of his men got bit on the knee by a bear.
Speaker 1: Pretty unfortunate. Walker's horse got snake bit on the nose
Speaker 1: and he rubbed it with bear grease to help cure
Speaker 1: it not kidding. It's in his journal. Walker recorded killing
Speaker 1: thirteen buffaloes, eight elk, fifty three bear, twenty deer, four geese,
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty turkeys on their five month trip, and
Speaker 1: Walker's men built the first log cabin constructed by white
Speaker 1: men in Kentucky. It was no doubt quite the trip,
Speaker 1: but very few remember Dr Walker's name, but they do
Speaker 1: remember Boone, who crossed the gap almost twenty years later.
Speaker 1: I want to take you into the Cumberland Gap. You
Speaker 1: can go there yourself. This mountain pass maintain its relevance
Speaker 1: into modern times as a travel corridor, as it eventually
Speaker 1: became modern US Highway twenty five. The section of road
Speaker 1: was extremely treacherous in the Cumberland Gap was notorious for
Speaker 1: tragic vehicle accidents, claiming an average of five lives per
Speaker 1: year in this very short stretch of road. However, something
Speaker 1: good happened. On October eighth, the Cumberland Gap twin bore
Speaker 1: four lane tunnel was opened, which burrows through Cumberland Mountain
Speaker 1: and then an incredibly encouraging feat, they removed the concrete
Speaker 1: and asphalt highway that went through the old gap and
Speaker 1: rewilded it and today it looked similar to what it
Speaker 1: looked like when only a single wagon lane trail passed
Speaker 1: through it. The gap now sits in the Cumberland State Park.
Speaker 1: It's an incredible place and I took my family there.
Speaker 1: So we are at the Cumberland Gap. Is the history
Speaker 1: Cumberland Gap. We're in the Cumberland Gap right now. Take
Speaker 1: a picture with your mama. Moccas and clad warriors battling
Speaker 1: Civil Wars soldiers each was here in the historic Cumberland Gap.
Speaker 1: And now so are you. This is the historic Cumberland Gap.
Speaker 1: You're there. This is it, man. I think this is
Speaker 1: where James Lawrence would put his trees down if he
Speaker 1: was trying to hunt the Cumberland Gap. Boys, this is
Speaker 1: about the most narrow spot of the gap. You know.
Speaker 1: The Native Americans called this the deer path, and James
Speaker 1: Lawrence and many others before and since him made a
Speaker 1: living off deer hunting in these gaps in the mountains. Guys,
Speaker 1: Daniel Boone stood right here. Think about that. I mean, like,
Speaker 1: maybe his feet were right where your feet are, and
Speaker 1: the vegetation of the gap would have been different. In
Speaker 1: seventeen sixty nine was the first time he came through here,
Speaker 1: but he would have stood within I mean at least
Speaker 1: ten feet of here, no doubt. I think of all
Speaker 1: the Native Americans that came through this gap, the Buffalo wild.
Speaker 1: What do you think, crazy, John, I think it's pretty cool.
Speaker 1: Describe what these woods look like. Bear right here in
Speaker 1: the comer. They look a lot like Arkansas, which I
Speaker 1: guess is eastern deciduous. Right there, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: oak trees, white oak trees. There's a lot of like
Speaker 1: it's fret of green on the ground. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of rocks with covered in moss. Yeah, going into the
Speaker 1: gap was a unique experience for me. You get the
Speaker 1: impression the Cumberland Gap is massive and grand, but it's
Speaker 1: really not. It's a narrow mountain gap. It's wild to
Speaker 1: think that such historical significance was derived from such an
Speaker 1: obscure place. Frederick Jackson Turner wrote, stand at the Cumberland Gap,
Speaker 1: and watch the procession of civilization marching single file, the
Speaker 1: buffalo following the trail to the salt springs. The Indian,
Speaker 1: the fur trader and hunter, the cattle raiser, the pioneer
Speaker 1: farmer in the frontier has passed by. Here's Steve Ronnella
Speaker 1: on the significance of the Cumberland Gap on Boone's life.
Speaker 1: Some people's lives we see this through history. Some people's
Speaker 1: lives become defined by history, not necessarily by them. I
Speaker 1: don't know if Daniel Boone would look back at his
Speaker 1: life and see that going through the Cumberland Gap was
Speaker 1: that significant. Maybe would maybe wouldn't. But history has decided
Speaker 1: that that is this defining moment that was iconic. Man,
Speaker 1: it had significance to him. Why why was it significant?
Speaker 1: If you would have asked him and he was in
Speaker 1: the mood to discuss it, I think it would have
Speaker 1: been described as this is what we his families people him,
Speaker 1: this is what we had always been hoping to find
Speaker 1: in all those moves and all those shifting arounds, like
Speaker 1: that's the thing you were after, unlimited game, grassland, agricultural land.
Speaker 1: No other people that look like you there. The people
Speaker 1: that were, they were easily dismissed by them, reckoned with,
Speaker 1: but but not recognized as a rightful owners to it,
Speaker 1: you know. And also it was a hard thing to
Speaker 1: go do, and they knew that to do it, to
Speaker 1: try to pull it off, they knew it was risky.
Speaker 1: They knew it was a major undertaking. You had to
Speaker 1: scout it, you had the plan. It was like a thing,
Speaker 1: meaning that not to in any way equate this. I
Speaker 1: grew up in Michigan and wounded up in Montana. If
Speaker 1: I was laying out my life for someone later, I
Speaker 1: would put that as a key moment. Okay, that was
Speaker 1: like a key moment upon which many things were angered.
Speaker 1: And there's no way that Boone wouldn't regard that. Going
Speaker 1: through the Cumberland Gap, and he didn't. You know, he
Speaker 1: didn't discovered Kentucky. He wouldn't have said he discovered Kentucky.
Speaker 1: He no doubt went places that no white man had
Speaker 1: gone before. Absolutely, but it wasn't through the gap. He said, like, man,
Speaker 1: my whole life built up to this. I put everything
Speaker 1: I had into making this a go. I put my
Speaker 1: family at risk to make this a go. He's buried
Speaker 1: in two places, but I think it would have been symbolic,
Speaker 1: and he would have recognized the symbolism. Had you taken
Speaker 1: his ashes and and sprinkled him at the top of
Speaker 1: the Cumberland Gap, I think it would have been to him.
Speaker 1: It would have made sense. I want you to hear
Speaker 1: two of Steve Ronella's favorite Boon stories, and both involved
Speaker 1: the Cumberland Gap. Here's what he had to say. I
Speaker 1: have two favorite Boon stories. Ones very precise and specific
Speaker 1: and one is more general, and that one is about
Speaker 1: a moment and the other one is about a stretch
Speaker 1: of years in terms of the one that lasted for
Speaker 1: a stretch of years. If I had an opportunity to
Speaker 1: to do time travel and I just had one shot, okay,
Speaker 1: I'm torn between two things. One would be to go
Speaker 1: to the northern Great Plains at a time when the
Speaker 1: first humans had kind of entered what is now the
Speaker 1: sort of like you know, the Mid Continent entered what
Speaker 1: is now the Great Plans of America. Okay, so no
Speaker 1: non Boon related, non boon related years ago. Whatever it
Speaker 1: was to be on the Northern Plains with the Paleo
Speaker 1: Indian hunters who were first ever humans is step foot.
Speaker 1: So if I didn't do that place to seeing you know,
Speaker 1: mammoth hunter move, I would want to go with Boone
Speaker 1: when he went in first hunted Kentucky for a couple
Speaker 1: of years, and yes, I said a couple of years.
Speaker 1: They went there on a long hunt. People he was
Speaker 1: with were killed. He wound up staying wilfully, not trapped,
Speaker 1: just staying so long that he ran out of gunpowder,
Speaker 1: had to make his own gunpowder with bat guano from caves.
Speaker 1: Worked up, you know, a good amount of money's worth.
Speaker 1: The hides lost. It was taken from him by the Indians,
Speaker 1: and they and from their perspective, he had taken it
Speaker 1: from them. They took it back, worked up another good
Speaker 1: fortune and Hides had that taken from him, comes home
Speaker 1: empty handed. But that adventure, that two year adventure in
Speaker 1: the wilderness, the finite, very specific moment is later when
Speaker 1: Boone wanted to bring his family out to the wilderness
Speaker 1: of Kentucky. His boy, one of his boys, was tortured
Speaker 1: and killed on the route on the on the wilderness
Speaker 1: road that led into Kentucky, which that was the Cumberland Gap.
Speaker 1: They were spread out, they were moved even live stock,
Speaker 1: you know, you imagine him like walking along, but they
Speaker 1: were they're they're strung out, well, they're strong, they're strong
Speaker 1: out so much in fact, as they're traveling through in
Speaker 1: a big group. They're strung out so much in fact
Speaker 1: that his boy gets caught, tortured and killed and Boon
Speaker 1: doesn't know what's going on until later, but he's very uh,
Speaker 1: you know, his boy's left there, and he's very hastily buried.
Speaker 1: They didn't want to linger. They hastily bury his son.
Speaker 1: I believe it might have been about a year later. Um,
Speaker 1: And this is the kind of favorite Boone story moment.
Speaker 1: About a year later, he happens to be going through
Speaker 1: there by himself, and as he tells it, it's raining.
Speaker 1: He describes it as the most as the lowest point
Speaker 1: of his life. Goes back to find his boy's grave.
Speaker 1: His boy was killed with another kid, finds where they
Speaker 1: had hastily buried him and had been dug up by wolves,
Speaker 1: and it was just the remains there, um, scavenge remains.
Speaker 1: But he recognizes his boy's hair on a dried scalp
Speaker 1: on his head, and so he knows what child is
Speaker 1: his and sits with him and weeps with him in
Speaker 1: his arms in the rain. And then here's something that
Speaker 1: doesn't sound right to him, and realizes there are Indians
Speaker 1: coming and has to slip off into the night to
Speaker 1: get away. Uh, I'm a father losing a child. It's
Speaker 1: just like you can't begin to imagine it. But these
Speaker 1: people live so close to death that sometimes you think
Speaker 1: that they had to have been immune to it. Right
Speaker 1: if you watch Western's righteous people shooting people all the
Speaker 1: time and like, you know, no one cares and they're ambivalent. Um,
Speaker 1: maybe there was some of that, But that he had,
Speaker 1: like that deep emotion you know, shows that like they
Speaker 1: felt all that stuff. He was human like anybody did.
Speaker 1: And the thought of a father in the rain himself
Speaker 1: cradling like the wolf scavenged body of his child and
Speaker 1: then slipping off into the night, Um, oh, it's haunting. Man. Well,
Speaker 1: I think what you've tapped into there is that with
Speaker 1: these superhero disneyfied characters that we've made of some of
Speaker 1: these people like Boone, we we lose the fact that
Speaker 1: they are human. That's lost somewhere inside of that story,
Speaker 1: and that when you see some of these things that
Speaker 1: he did. And I think this is where the real
Speaker 1: Boon is better than the myth of Boone, because as
Speaker 1: I've learned about his life, what I'm most impressed with
Speaker 1: is him as a as a human. I introduced you
Speaker 1: to Mr Robert Morgan robustly on part one, but in
Speaker 1: case you missed it, he's a heck of a guy.
Speaker 1: He wrote one of the most famous Boone biographies in history,
Speaker 1: simply titled Boone. You should probably check it out. Born
Speaker 1: in Appalachia in the nineteen forties, he spent his life
Speaker 1: writing about the people of the mountains. He's a New
Speaker 1: York Times bestselling author and poet. He's quite the catch
Speaker 1: for a hillbilly podcast like this one. Here, it's an
Speaker 1: honor again to bring you Mr Morgan. So, the Cumberland
Speaker 1: Gap is this like small topographic feature that if you
Speaker 1: were looking across the topographic map of North America, you
Speaker 1: wouldn't pick it out as this place that was really
Speaker 1: significant in American history, but it it became very significant.
Speaker 1: It's significant for the United States, but it's also significant
Speaker 1: for Boone. Can you explain for us why it was
Speaker 1: so significant specifically for Daniel Boone. Well, it's the topography.
Speaker 1: It makes it so important to have this chain of mountains,
Speaker 1: the Cumberlands, and they're hard to cross, particularly for the
Speaker 1: no roads and no trails are always none. And for
Speaker 1: about two hundred years, English speaking settlers had kind of
Speaker 1: been trapped on the eastern side of these mountains. So
Speaker 1: to get to the middle ground, the Great meadow. They
Speaker 1: needed an easier way than just crossing one row of
Speaker 1: mountains after another after another. There were other gaps. Pound
Speaker 1: Gap farther north was away in through the Cumberlands into
Speaker 1: the Cumberland Plateau, but it wasn't as good as as
Speaker 1: a Cumberland Gap, which had been used for thousands of
Speaker 1: years by by the Indians. They had a name for it.
Speaker 1: They called it wasi Oda, meaning the deer path, the
Speaker 1: deer trail, and uh no secret to the Indians. They
Speaker 1: had known about it for a long time. But getting
Speaker 1: into Kentucky was an enormously important thing. As it turned out.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't think so, really, but they needed a way
Speaker 1: into the middle Ground, into the blue Grass because that
Speaker 1: was the opening really to the West, to what we
Speaker 1: call the Middle West. You could get to it by
Speaker 1: coming down the Ohio River, but you had to go
Speaker 1: way up there to Pittsburgh that area to get on
Speaker 1: the river. And it was very dangerous to come down
Speaker 1: the river because you had Indians on both sides, and
Speaker 1: many were killed coming down that river. But there was
Speaker 1: very few Indians in Kentucky. That's why it seemed to appealing.
Speaker 1: It that seemed like a miracle there were no Indian
Speaker 1: villages there in this vast area of the Bluegrass. Now
Speaker 1: why would that be? That was very interesting. It was
Speaker 1: a mystery had but a very wonderful mystery to explorers. Uh. Well,
Speaker 1: there is a reason, the several reasons. But there had
Speaker 1: been an enormous fur war early in the eighteenth century
Speaker 1: between Indians and the French for control of what we
Speaker 1: called the blue Grass. Everybody wanted it, and the Iroquois
Speaker 1: had one at this huge confederation of the Iroquois way
Speaker 1: up here in New York actually, but they traveled a
Speaker 1: long way and that was their buffalo hunting ground. They
Speaker 1: forbade the other Indians for building villages there. But it
Speaker 1: wasn't just the Iroquois and the other and everybody wanted
Speaker 1: a Cherokees wanted it, the Mingoes wanted the Delawares. But
Speaker 1: because it was so fought over, it was called the
Speaker 1: dark and bloody ground. Now that's not what Kentucky means.
Speaker 1: Kentuck Key is made from two Iroquois words meaning the
Speaker 1: flat land, the level land. There have been many names
Speaker 1: for the area of Kentucky. For a long time, people
Speaker 1: thought that's what Kentucky meant, the dark and bloody ground.
Speaker 1: They had heard that, but the Iroquois had named it
Speaker 1: something a little more peaceable, Kentucky. And why would the
Speaker 1: white people have called it by that Iroquois name. I
Speaker 1: think they had heard the Cherokees use it. And there's
Speaker 1: something so beautiful about Kentucky, those double case sounds. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the actual word itself. Once you've heard it, you just
Speaker 1: want to say it. You know, it's like poetry. It's
Speaker 1: sweet on the tongue. And you could have called it
Speaker 1: as the Shawnees did, escu parcaiki. You could call it
Speaker 1: kentu key and and we can see what went out.
Speaker 1: But Cumberland Gap was so important because coming from the
Speaker 1: eastern colonies, from the Carolina's, from Tennessee, that was the
Speaker 1: way in. It was a fairly easy way. Once you've
Speaker 1: found it, you followed the warriors path, and you're looking
Speaker 1: at these absolutely forbidding cliffs a boon or somebody in
Speaker 1: the Adventures of Colonel Daniel Boone said they're like the
Speaker 1: ruins of Palmyra. And people want how did Dan Daniel
Speaker 1: Boone ever hear about the ruins of Palmira. Well, Daniel
Speaker 1: Boone was surprisingly educated, and sometimes he loved to read,
Speaker 1: and he loved to read history. He had a fabulous memory.
Speaker 1: He could remember topography. He'd ever seen a place, he
Speaker 1: would remember it. And he had a gift for language
Speaker 1: and an ability to talk the language of whoever he
Speaker 1: was talking to, that ability to blend in and among
Speaker 1: these backwoodsmen, he could talk rough. When he met better
Speaker 1: educated people, he could talk like a better educated person.
Speaker 1: You know, is that that that mirror? That language mirror
Speaker 1: he was with code switching? Absolutely, it was. It was
Speaker 1: a kind of you know, chameleon ability. And I think
Speaker 1: some people think that was put in there by Philson,
Speaker 1: but it may have been. But I think Boone was
Speaker 1: perfectly capable of coming up with a phrase he had
Speaker 1: read or heard, uh and saying they were like the
Speaker 1: ruins of Palmyra. Steve gave a quick overview of Boone's
Speaker 1: first trip into Kentucky. But I'd like to let Daniel
Speaker 1: tell you what happened. What I thought. The mystery of
Speaker 1: Boone is that we never heard about his life directly
Speaker 1: from him. If you remember the chapter in John Philson's
Speaker 1: book titled The Adventures of Colonel Daniel Boone, the one
Speaker 1: that made him famous, was a first person account of
Speaker 1: what Boone told Philson. However, it's disputed. Remember how the
Speaker 1: interview took place when Daniel was fifty years old. When
Speaker 1: you hear the style of language, it makes you wonder
Speaker 1: how much of this first person account was really from
Speaker 1: Boone or is it in the young writer's interpretation of
Speaker 1: what he said. Philson was around thirty years old when
Speaker 1: he wrote this. Lastly, and most importantly, Daniel Boone is
Speaker 1: verified to have said quote true, every word true, regarding
Speaker 1: Philson's interviews and what he wrote. However, Nathan Boone, Daniel
Speaker 1: Boone's youngest son, who Lyman Draper interviewed, said quote, I
Speaker 1: feel confident that Philson took many liberties and made not
Speaker 1: a few misinterpretations in the narrative, either purposefully or unintentionally.
Speaker 1: I think their frequency can only be explained by supposing
Speaker 1: that my father narrated his Kentucky adventures to Philson, who
Speaker 1: wrote them down from memory at some subsequent period. Much
Speaker 1: of the language is not my father's. End of court,
Speaker 1: I'll let you be the judge of whether you believe
Speaker 1: Daniel or his son Nathan. These are the words that
Speaker 1: catapulted Boone into global fame, As recorded by Philson. It
Speaker 1: was on the first of May in the year seventeen
Speaker 1: sixty nine, that I resigned my domestic happiness for a
Speaker 1: time and left my family in peaceable habitation on the
Speaker 1: Yadkin River in North Carolina to wander through the wilderness
Speaker 1: of America in quest of the country of Kentucky. In
Speaker 1: company with John Finley, John Stewart, Joseph Holden, James Money,
Speaker 1: and William cool we proceeded successfully, and after a long
Speaker 1: and fatiguing journey through a mountainous wilderness in a westward direction,
Speaker 1: on the seventh day of June following, we found ourselves
Speaker 1: on Red River, where John Finlay had formerly been trading
Speaker 1: with Indians, and from the top of an eminence saw
Speaker 1: with pleasure the beautiful level of Kentucky. Here let me
Speaker 1: observe that for some time we had experienced the most
Speaker 1: uncomfortable weather. As a pre libation of our future sufferings.
Speaker 1: At this place, we encamped and made a shelter to
Speaker 1: defend us from the inclement season, and began to hunt
Speaker 1: the country. We found everywhere abundance of wild beasts of
Speaker 1: all sorts through this vast forest. The buffaloes were more
Speaker 1: frequent than I had seen cattle in the settlements, browsing
Speaker 1: on the leaves of the cane, and cropping the herbage
Speaker 1: on those sense of plains, fearless because ignorant of the
Speaker 1: violence of man. Sometimes we saw hundreds in a drobe,
Speaker 1: and the numbers about the salt springs were amazing. In
Speaker 1: this forest the habitation of beasts of every kind natural
Speaker 1: to America. We practiced hunting with great success until the
Speaker 1: twenty second day of December. Following this day, John Stewart
Speaker 1: and I had a pleasing ramble, but fortune changed the
Speaker 1: scene and the close of it we had passed through
Speaker 1: a great forest on which stood myriads of trees, some
Speaker 1: gay with blossoms, others rich with fruits. Nature here was
Speaker 1: a series of wonders and a fund of delight. Here
Speaker 1: she displayed her ingenuity and industry in a variety of
Speaker 1: flowers and fruits, beautifully colored, elegantly shaped, and charmingly flavored.
Speaker 1: And we were diverted with innumerable animals presenting themselves perpetually
Speaker 1: to our view. In the decline of the day, near
Speaker 1: the Kentucky River, as we ascended the brow of the
Speaker 1: small hill, a number of Indians rushed out of the
Speaker 1: thick cane break upon us and made us prisoners. The
Speaker 1: time of our sorrow was now arrived, and the scene
Speaker 1: fully opened. The Indians plundered of us what we had
Speaker 1: and kept us in confinement seven days, treating us with
Speaker 1: common Indian usage. During this time we discovered no uneasiness
Speaker 1: or desire to escape, which made them less suspicious of us.
Speaker 1: But in the dead of night, as we lay in
Speaker 1: a thick cane break by a large fire, when sleep
Speaker 1: had locked up their senses, my situation not disposing me
Speaker 1: for rest, I touched my companion and gently awoke him.
Speaker 1: We improved this favorable opportunity and departed, leaving them to
Speaker 1: take their rest, and speedily directed our course towards our
Speaker 1: old camp, but found it plundered, and the company dispersed
Speaker 1: and gone home. About this time, my brother, Squire Boone,
Speaker 1: with another adventure, who came to explore the country shortly
Speaker 1: after us, was wandering through the forest, determined to find
Speaker 1: me if possible, and accidentally found our camp. Notwithstanding the
Speaker 1: unfortunate circumstances of our company and our dangerous situation as
Speaker 1: surrounded with hostile Indians, are meeting so fortunately and the
Speaker 1: wilderness made us reciprocally sensible of the utmost satisfaction. So
Speaker 1: much does friendship triumph over misfortune, that sorrows and sufferings
Speaker 1: vanish at the meeting not only of real friends, but
Speaker 1: of the most distant acquaintances, and substitutes happiness in their room.
Speaker 1: Soon after this, my companion in captivity, John Stewart, was
Speaker 1: killed by the Indians, and the man that came with
Speaker 1: my brother returned home by himself. We were then in
Speaker 1: a dangerous, helpless situation, exposed daily to perils and death
Speaker 1: amongst Indians and wild beasts, not a white man in
Speaker 1: the country, but ourselves. Thus situated many hundred miles from
Speaker 1: our families in the howling wilderness, I believe you would
Speaker 1: have equally enjoyed the happiness we experienced. I often observed
Speaker 1: to my brother. You see now how little nature requires
Speaker 1: to be satisfied. Felicity, the companion of content, is rather
Speaker 1: found in our own breasts than in the enjoyment of
Speaker 1: external things. And I firmly believe it requires but a
Speaker 1: little philosophy to make a man happy in whatever state
Speaker 1: he is. This consists in a full resignation of the
Speaker 1: will of providence and a resigned soul finds pleasure in
Speaker 1: a path strewed with briars and thorns. We continued, not
Speaker 1: in a state of indolence, but hunted every day, and
Speaker 1: prepared a little cottage to defend us from the winter storms.
Speaker 1: We remain there undisturbed during the winter, and on the
Speaker 1: first day of May seventeen seventy, my brother returned home
Speaker 1: to the settlement by himself for a new recruit of
Speaker 1: horses and ammunition, leaving me by myself without bread, salt,
Speaker 1: or sugar, without company of my fellow creatures, or even
Speaker 1: a horse or dog. I confess I never before was
Speaker 1: under greater necessity of exercising philosophy and fortitude. A few
Speaker 1: days I passed uncomfortably. The idea of a beloved wife
Speaker 1: and family, and their anxiety upon the account of my
Speaker 1: absence and exposed situation, made sensible impressions on my heart.
Speaker 1: A thousand dreadful apprehensions presented themselves to my view, and
Speaker 1: had undoubtedly disposed me to melancholy if further indulged. One
Speaker 1: day I undertook a tour through the country, and the
Speaker 1: diversity and beauties of nature I met within this charming
Speaker 1: season expelled every gloomy and vexatious thought. Just at the
Speaker 1: close of the day, as gentle gales retired and left
Speaker 1: the place to the disposal of a profound calm, not
Speaker 1: a breeze shook the most tremulous leaf. I had gained
Speaker 1: the summit of a commanding ridge, and looking round with
Speaker 1: astonishing delight, held the ample planes and the beauteous tracks below.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, I surveyed the famous River Ohio
Speaker 1: that rolled in silent dignity, marking the western boundary of
Speaker 1: Kentucky with inconceivable grandeur. At a vast distance, I beheld
Speaker 1: the mountains lift their venerable brows and penetrate the clouds.
Speaker 1: All things were still. I kindled a fire near a
Speaker 1: fountain of sweet water, and feasted on the loin of
Speaker 1: a buck, which a few hours before I had killed.
Speaker 1: The sullen shades of night soon overspread the whole hemisphere,
Speaker 1: and the earth seemed to gasp after the hovering moisture.
Speaker 1: My roving excursion this day had fatigued my body and
Speaker 1: diverted my imagination. I laid me down to sleep, and
Speaker 1: I woke not until the sun had chased away the night.
Speaker 1: I continued this tour, and in a few days explored
Speaker 1: a considerable part of the country. Each day equally pleased
Speaker 1: as the first, I returned again to my old camp,
Speaker 1: which was not disturbed herb to my absence. I did
Speaker 1: not confine my lodging to it, but often reposed in
Speaker 1: the thick cane brakes to avoid the Indians, who I
Speaker 1: believe often visited my camp. But fortunately for me, in
Speaker 1: my absence, in this torment with fear, which is vain
Speaker 1: if no danger comes, and if it does, only augments
Speaker 1: the pain, it was my happiness to be destitute of
Speaker 1: this afflicting passion, with which I had the greatest reason
Speaker 1: to be affected. The prowling wolves diverted my nocturnal hours
Speaker 1: with perpetual howlings, and the various species of animals in
Speaker 1: the vast forest in the daytime were continually in my view.
Speaker 1: Thus I was surrounded with plenty in the midst of want.
Speaker 1: I was happy in the midst of dangers and inconveniences.
Speaker 1: In such a diversity, it was impossible I should be
Speaker 1: disposed to melancholy. No populous city, with all the varieties
Speaker 1: of commerce and stately structures, could afford so much pleasure
Speaker 1: to my mind as the beauties of nature I found here. Thus,
Speaker 1: through an uninterpreted scene of Sylvan pleasures, I spent the
Speaker 1: time until the twenty seventh day of July following, when
Speaker 1: my brother to my great Hilocoity met me according to
Speaker 1: appointment at our old camp. Shortly after, we left this place,
Speaker 1: not thinking it safe to stay there any longer, and
Speaker 1: proceeded to Cumberland River, reconnoitering that part of the country
Speaker 1: until March seventeen seventy one, in giving names to the
Speaker 1: different waters. Soon after, I returned home to my family
Speaker 1: with the determination to bring them as soon as possible
Speaker 1: to live in Kentucky, which I esteemed a second paradise,
Speaker 1: at risk of my life and fortune. End of passage.
Speaker 1: This is a wild story of Boone's trip into Kentucky.
Speaker 1: It's important to remember that Pilson's biographical chapter is a
Speaker 1: big part of what made Boon world famous us. It's
Speaker 1: interesting to think about why there's lots of stuff inside
Speaker 1: of there that was new to the thought process of Americans.
Speaker 1: In Mr Morgan's book, he made some insightful commentary on
Speaker 1: the influences in Boone's life and how the old Woodsman
Speaker 1: viewed his life. This is an excerpt from Mr Morgan's
Speaker 1: book talking about John Filson's chapter. The style is that
Speaker 1: of a quest narrative of a night errant in search
Speaker 1: of a paradise, but it fits the adventure narrative also
Speaker 1: as popularized by Defoe in the Robinson Crusoe. After the
Speaker 1: Bible and The Pilgrim's Progress, Robinson Crusoe was perhaps the
Speaker 1: most widely read book in North America in the eighteenth century.
Speaker 1: Published in seventeen nineteen, the book, often called the first
Speaker 1: novel in English, went through printing after printing and addition
Speaker 1: after addition. Thought by the public to be a factual memoir,
Speaker 1: not a work of action, Robinson Crusoe was modeled on
Speaker 1: the true account of the Adventures of the Scottish sailor
Speaker 1: Alexander Selkirk, as published by Richard Steele in seventeen thirteen.
Speaker 1: Though largely unnoticed by scholars and historians writing about Boone,
Speaker 1: defosed novel deeply influenced the way Boone told his story
Speaker 1: and the way Philson wrote down the narrative. Crusoe's story
Speaker 1: is told in the first person and not only describes
Speaker 1: one man's heroic struggle for survival in the wilderness, but
Speaker 1: is interspersed with moral meditations on the growth of character, humility,
Speaker 1: and wisdom. After he finds himself alone on the desert island,
Speaker 1: Crusoe says, as my reason began to master my despondency.
Speaker 1: I began to comfort myself as well as I could,
Speaker 1: and to set the good against the evil, that I
Speaker 1: might have something to distinguish my case from worse. Describing
Speaker 1: the period when he was alone in Kentucky after the
Speaker 1: departure of his brother Squire from North Carolina in seventeen seventy,
Speaker 1: Boone tells us I was by myself without bread, salt,
Speaker 1: or sugar, without company of my fellow creatures, or even
Speaker 1: a horse or dog. And I never before was under
Speaker 1: greater necessity of exercising philosophy and fortitude. Much of Crusoe's
Speaker 1: story is taken up with the details of his survival,
Speaker 1: how he built a shelter, enlarged his cave, planted grain, hunted,
Speaker 1: But alternating with the descriptions and narrative are passages of
Speaker 1: philosophical comment quote, let this stand as a direction from
Speaker 1: the experience of the most miserable of all conditions in
Speaker 1: the world that we always find in it something to
Speaker 1: comfort ourselves from and to set in the description of
Speaker 1: good and evil. On the credit side of the account,
Speaker 1: Boone also describes in some detail the way he and
Speaker 1: his brother Squire struggled in the wilderness, threatened by Indians, loneliness,
Speaker 1: the unknown, and then, like Crusoe, he will turn from
Speaker 1: narrative to philosophical observation. Thus, situated many hundred miles from
Speaker 1: our families in the Howling wilderness, I believe you have
Speaker 1: equally enjoyed the happiness we experience. I often observed my brother.
Speaker 1: You see how little nature requires to be satisfied. Philson
Speaker 1: and Boone understood, as did the Foe, that even an
Speaker 1: adventure story had to make a moral point. Besides many
Speaker 1: parallels and technical details about survival, landscape, solitude, their similarities
Speaker 1: in the passages of meditation. M M. It's super interesting
Speaker 1: to know that humans respond in predictable ways. Two stories
Speaker 1: told in the right way, whether conscious or unconscious. Boone
Speaker 1: and his biographer knew this, and they made their narrative
Speaker 1: like one of the best selling stories of the time period.
Speaker 1: That's some legit branding from the old backwoodsman. I want
Speaker 1: to switch the conversation, however, back to Native Americans, and
Speaker 1: Mr Morgan has some interesting tidbits to share about the
Speaker 1: Boone family and the Native American influence on them, and
Speaker 1: a couple others, and Abraham Lincoln, the grandfather of the
Speaker 1: Great Emancipator, is in this group. Boon also knew the
Speaker 1: Hanks family something, so Abraham Lincoln's grandfather went with Boone
Speaker 1: to Kentucky exactly that second second, big much UH commerce
Speaker 1: communication between the Lincoln family and the Boone family all
Speaker 1: the way back to Pennsylvania and then in Virginia. They've
Speaker 1: known each other for a long time, and UH important
Speaker 1: to remember that, because I think this is very essential
Speaker 1: to understanding Lincoln, that he was a man of the
Speaker 1: of the frontier of the UH, and that his style
Speaker 1: was informed his politics were informed by the way Indian
Speaker 1: chiefs did things. Famous situation Chase, Secretary of State, Sword
Speaker 1: says to the president, Mr President, what is your policy?
Speaker 1: You've got to tell us your policy, and Lincoln says,
Speaker 1: my policy is to have no policy. This is exactly
Speaker 1: the way Indian chiefs the last moment they wouldn't wouldn't
Speaker 1: tell you what they wanted to do. He picked that up,
Speaker 1: you know in the backwoods. Uh, that's that's the way
Speaker 1: you act as a leader. There's so many ways that
Speaker 1: Indigenous people, American Indians, influenced American culture, and that's one
Speaker 1: of them. And you just describe a great example of
Speaker 1: how Native American culture has influenced the American identity. Are
Speaker 1: there other examples of that? Well? The most famous is
Speaker 1: the fact that the Articles of Confederation Continental Congress were
Speaker 1: based on the Iroquois Constitution. Revival preaching. A lot of
Speaker 1: the famous revival preachers were part Indian. Oral Roberts was Choctaw,
Speaker 1: for instance. The rats preacher in American history was Decompson.
Speaker 1: He could mesmerize, he'd combined the Indian beliefs the Christian
Speaker 1: beliefs and could sway anybody. And I think American oratory
Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century was really influenced by these great
Speaker 1: Indian leaders. For their their eloquence, the oratory was that
Speaker 1: was their leadership. Sam Houston could didn't move anybody. He'd
Speaker 1: been adopted by the Cherokees. He was at Cherokee. He
Speaker 1: was raven of the Hawassi Cherokees. On the topic of
Speaker 1: Native Americans I want to continue to look at Boone's
Speaker 1: relationship with them and restate that Boone was boom because
Speaker 1: of Native Americans. With no Native Americans, there's no Daniel
Speaker 1: Boone national archetype that we know. They seem to have
Speaker 1: more influence on him than white culture. Here's Steve and
Speaker 1: I discussing this very thing. He had a really unique
Speaker 1: relationship with Indians in that he was you know, at
Speaker 1: one point in his life he was adopted by the
Speaker 1: Shawnee as a son of blackfish, and he always had
Speaker 1: this like seemingly deep respect for Native Americans. But just
Speaker 1: the nature of the times and where he was at
Speaker 1: and what he was doing, he ended up, you know,
Speaker 1: being in conflict with him at different times, many time
Speaker 1: that you have to analyze them. I think you have
Speaker 1: to analyze that aspect of him in context of his peers,
Speaker 1: and compared to his peers, he had a very lenient
Speaker 1: you know, compared to long Hunters or compared to other
Speaker 1: military other soldiers of the time, seems to have had
Speaker 1: a very tolerant, rather progressive view of of relations between
Speaker 1: the Euro Americans in the Native Americans, but at the
Speaker 1: same time did a tremendous amount in some respects, one
Speaker 1: could say like, unintentionally but knowingly did a tremendous amount
Speaker 1: to displace those people, but understood the loss that he
Speaker 1: was inflicting. Dr Taylor Keene is a graduate of Dartmouth
Speaker 1: College and has a couple of graduate degrees from Harvard.
Speaker 1: He's currently a professor in the Business School of Crichton
Speaker 1: University in Omaha, Nebraska. Most relevant for this conversation, he's
Speaker 1: a member of the Cherokee in Omaha Nation. He considers
Speaker 1: himself a citizen historian of the Cherokee Nation. I wanted
Speaker 1: to ask him about the other side of the story
Speaker 1: of the Cumberland Gap. Meet Professor Keen. Professor Keen, I
Speaker 1: want to uh. I want to tell you an experience
Speaker 1: that I had while I was in Kentucky. I took
Speaker 1: my family to the Cumberland Gap. So the Cumberland Gap
Speaker 1: sits on the border of Tennessee, Virginia, and Kentucky. And
Speaker 1: the way that we came through the gap was from
Speaker 1: the Virginia and Tennessee side, So we came from east
Speaker 1: to west. And as I've been thinking about this for
Speaker 1: so long, I was excited and you kind of drive
Speaker 1: on this Highway and you can see the Cumberland Gap.
Speaker 1: And as I'm there with my boys in the car
Speaker 1: and my wife, I'm I'm talking to them about how,
Speaker 1: you know, this is what Daniel Boone saw. This is
Speaker 1: exactly what he saw minus the buildings and civilization when
Speaker 1: he came through here. And we we went through the
Speaker 1: Cumberland Gap from from east to west. We stayed in Middlesboro,
Speaker 1: Kentucky that night and that evening we decided we were
Speaker 1: going to drive back through the gap. And when I
Speaker 1: was driving from west to east, I just had the
Speaker 1: thought that most likely the first humans to ever walk
Speaker 1: through that gap came from west to east. Most likely
Speaker 1: no one really knows where the indigenous people of North
Speaker 1: America exactly came from, but the best evidence right now,
Speaker 1: I would say what they came from the west and
Speaker 1: moved into the east. And it was really kind of
Speaker 1: a moving thought because as a as a American, I'm
Speaker 1: thinking about the European Americans that came from east to west,
Speaker 1: but the indigenous people's they would have found that thousands
Speaker 1: of years before before Americans did, and the French did,
Speaker 1: and the white Europeans, and it was and that's what
Speaker 1: got me on this train of thought of you know,
Speaker 1: we celebrate this path, you know, people passing through this gap,
Speaker 1: but for the indigenous people of this country, of this continent,
Speaker 1: it wasn't something necessarily to be celebrated. And that's why
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to you. I just wanted to
Speaker 1: get your your perspective and just talk about ultimately the
Speaker 1: impact of of Europeans coming through the Cumberland Gap and
Speaker 1: then just settling the rest of North America. I think
Speaker 1: that's a fantastic intro um. And that's the big question,
Speaker 1: is it not? How long ago we're the first humans
Speaker 1: to see that? And that's a mind mind boggling question
Speaker 1: for sure. The theory to which you are indicating is
Speaker 1: the bearing straight theory. Correct, there's a couple of them
Speaker 1: I here of, but that has an indelible impact on Americans.
Speaker 1: Perceptions of indigenous peoples are ancient Cherokee stories. Um say
Speaker 1: that we come from an island in the east, meaning
Speaker 1: the Atlantic, and that we were on a island that
Speaker 1: had volcanoes and big turtles. That's actually a very important
Speaker 1: part of Cherokee cosmology, those those turtles. But that makes
Speaker 1: it sound like it's somewhere around the Galapa Ghost or
Speaker 1: something like that. And then our stories say that that
Speaker 1: that was where we had massive temples and an an
Speaker 1: earlier golden age that eventually water overcame the island and
Speaker 1: we had to flee, and that's where our stories of
Speaker 1: Grandmother Spider carried our one ember from our one great fire,
Speaker 1: and that we migrated into what would be South America.
Speaker 1: And the Cherokee is the only tribe that utilize blow
Speaker 1: dart guns as hunting weapons as well as double walled basketry.
Speaker 1: And so that's uh an imprint of our time in
Speaker 1: South America. And then that we migrated up over the
Speaker 1: Great Old Man, which is the Mississippi River, and then
Speaker 1: eventually found ourselves up near the Synecas, because that's our
Speaker 1: most closely related tribal groups. And uh, eventually we were
Speaker 1: forced down south into what is more often than not
Speaker 1: viewed as you know, the Cherokee homelands, but you know,
Speaker 1: we were probably immigrants to that area as well. You
Speaker 1: can look to the other five civilized tribes, the Creeks
Speaker 1: and the Choctaws and the Chickasaws, and and uh and
Speaker 1: the Seminoles, and that was that was their homeland. But
Speaker 1: Cherokee certainly occupied it. The question is for how long.
Speaker 1: So when we're talking about things like the Cumberland Gap,
Speaker 1: it h time as a continuum makes it really really messy,
Speaker 1: regardless of who discovered that, and of course will will
Speaker 1: never know. Um, most Americans would cite that of his
Speaker 1: Daniel Boone, who val signs. I think indigenous people's had
Speaker 1: a bigger influence on on Daniel Boone and other frontiersman
Speaker 1: than um what is more popularly recognized. And little things
Speaker 1: like him basing the turkey with his own juices and
Speaker 1: something that you know, we as Americans just take for commonplace.
Speaker 1: But um, I was probably you know, thousands year old
Speaker 1: indigenous practice with you know, with those those great birds
Speaker 1: that have been here for a very long time, very
Speaker 1: very important in tribal cultures. Talk to me about the
Speaker 1: long term, like high level overview of what happened, what
Speaker 1: that started to the indigenous people when when white Europeans
Speaker 1: came through that gap. Well it's um, there's one aspect
Speaker 1: of Indigenous history in the Americas that you can't get around.
Speaker 1: That's the issue of smallpox and disease, primarily smallpox. However
Speaker 1: it got here many scholars would theorize that it came
Speaker 1: from the Spanish and probably the Spanish conquistadors, and whether
Speaker 1: or not it came directly from human contact or dogs
Speaker 1: or horses. Of course, in these days we all understand
Speaker 1: the basics of a pandemic. It doesn't doesn't matter how
Speaker 1: it got here. What does matter was the impact on
Speaker 1: indigenous peoples without exception, across all of the America's whether
Speaker 1: that's what is now Canada and the United States, Central America,
Speaker 1: South America, the indigenous peoples were decimated by smallpox. Most
Speaker 1: conservative estimates are around seventy but the bulk of the
Speaker 1: data that we do have is eight five to ninety
Speaker 1: five decimation death rates from smallpox. And so we have
Speaker 1: these fascinating documented encounters with indigenous peoples from say the
Speaker 1: Spanish conquistadors and massive numbers tribal peoples in the Amazon
Speaker 1: Meso America. You can pick your conquistador and follow each story,
Speaker 1: but the stories pretty much the same. They were outnumbered
Speaker 1: in many cases, pushed back, repelled or defeated, came back
Speaker 1: with large armies a few years later and found everyone
Speaker 1: gone m hm. And so it's that's that's the story.
Speaker 1: Worried that. I think is so hard for people to
Speaker 1: get their minds wrapped around. Think of your closest friends
Speaker 1: and family and there's only five of you left. So
Speaker 1: it at the least it, you know, could only have
Speaker 1: detrimentally impacted tribal people's, whether that's a base of head
Speaker 1: men and warriors, which is crucial at such times, or
Speaker 1: than the knowledge of agricultural life ways. Uh, of the
Speaker 1: knowledge was gone. So in many cases we were kind
Speaker 1: of faced with almost a cultural amnesia. And so you know,
Speaker 1: if you were a child that survived that, no longer
Speaker 1: do you have of those teachers and storytellers. You have
Speaker 1: five and they have five percent of what was left.
Speaker 1: So you have this huge gap and made it an
Speaker 1: easy story for Euro Americans coming to America to view
Speaker 1: it as a vast wilderness when in reality, you know,
Speaker 1: it's been populated for over ten thousand years for sure,
Speaker 1: and arguably twenty to thirty thousand years, so there there
Speaker 1: was no wilderness. There was only land in the animals
Speaker 1: and whether one knew them or not. Yeah, I'd look
Speaker 1: at things like the Cumberland Gap and I think easy
Speaker 1: ten thousand years, maybe fifteen, and if we go into
Speaker 1: the number of generations of people that is, it's just
Speaker 1: mind boggling when we think of American history just at
Speaker 1: a surface level, you think of wars with indigenous people
Speaker 1: that would have killed Native Americans. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: musket balls and whatnot, But really that that's not the culprit.
Speaker 1: That's not the main culprit. The main culprit was disease.
Speaker 1: This hidden, this hidden warfare that came in just from contact,
Speaker 1: which is just really such a bizarre thing when you
Speaker 1: think about it, because how how Yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure there's science behind how These white
Speaker 1: Europeans were coming from tightly grouped, dwelling places of people,
Speaker 1: so disease was spread around, and these indigenous people were
Speaker 1: living these healthy lives out in the wild, so they
Speaker 1: didn't have disease. That's the biggest irony because nearly all
Speaker 1: of these pandemics, as it were, smallpox, etcetera, all came
Speaker 1: from domesticated animals. So smallpox is a derivation of cow pox,
Speaker 1: and that's why there was a greater immunity towards it
Speaker 1: with European populations. They were certainly not immune. When you
Speaker 1: dig deep into American history. You see the impact on
Speaker 1: even on the founding fathers themselves. You know, just a
Speaker 1: personal question, Professor Keane, Like, I mean you can tell
Speaker 1: from me doing a podcast series on Daniel Boone, this
Speaker 1: is a man that, like I want to celebrate. You see,
Speaker 1: inside the research, Boone was just a figurehead. He was
Speaker 1: just an archetype for for what Americans did. He was
Speaker 1: just the one that we kind of picked to be
Speaker 1: our heroes. So we're not necessarily picking on Boone, but like,
Speaker 1: how do how do you feel when we celebrate somebody
Speaker 1: like Boone? I mean, but you're an American as well. Now,
Speaker 1: I mean it's so long past, but what are your
Speaker 1: personal thoughts on that. I've just always found it fascinating.
Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, I can I consider myself
Speaker 1: a patriot, and I love our country, and I understand
Speaker 1: why all cultures need heroes. And so you talked a
Speaker 1: lot about branding and archetypes, and of course that's all
Speaker 1: stuff in our in our field of business. So I
Speaker 1: understand that, and so I acknowledge that he was an icon.
Speaker 1: He was an archetype of that frontiersman. But I also
Speaker 1: feel like there should be in history indigenous people's that
Speaker 1: he worked with, learned from spent time hunting with that
Speaker 1: should also be those types of heroes. And we don't
Speaker 1: know who those are, but guaranteed they were there. He
Speaker 1: did have a relationship with my tribe, the Cherokees. He
Speaker 1: did have a relationship with the Shawnees. I'm just glad
Speaker 1: that podcasts like yours today bring those aspects of history
Speaker 1: back up, because it only adds to the rich, you know,
Speaker 1: tapestry of really what what made those individuals people to survive?
Speaker 1: What an incredible perspective from Professor Keene. I want to
Speaker 1: go back to Mr Morgan and hear what he has
Speaker 1: to say about historical revision. I figured he's got some
Speaker 1: insight in modern times people have They go back into
Speaker 1: history and they find faults with people based upon things
Speaker 1: that we now know were egregious things like slavery, like people.
Speaker 1: We now know worldwide that this was a terrible thing.
Speaker 1: This is a this is a scar on humanity that
Speaker 1: we've we've been a part of this, but it but
Speaker 1: it just doesn't seem fair to go back and say
Speaker 1: that every human that ever was involved in that in
Speaker 1: any way was an evil person. And at the same
Speaker 1: time I'm I'm talking about Boon and and want to
Speaker 1: give him credit for all these things, but we know
Speaker 1: there was this irony inside of his life for things
Speaker 1: that were done to Native Americans. And you know, we
Speaker 1: said that he owned a slave, and not a whole
Speaker 1: lot is known about that. Can you speak to that,
Speaker 1: just kind of like your personal thoughts on how we
Speaker 1: can deal with that. Well, Historical revisionism is the fashion
Speaker 1: now and people want to impose on the past the
Speaker 1: values and the judgments of the present, and we should
Speaker 1: keep that in mind, you know, our ideals and our
Speaker 1: ethics as we look at historical figures. But we said
Speaker 1: also be tolerant because of all human beings, and we
Speaker 1: all make mistakes, and in the future some historian, maybe
Speaker 1: looking at us, will so do you also, you know,
Speaker 1: want to be more flexible and looking at these figures
Speaker 1: and not only see what they did wrong, but to
Speaker 1: see what they did right. And in the case of Boon,
Speaker 1: to remember why he's important. I mean, there's a reason
Speaker 1: he's so important in American culture and in fact in
Speaker 1: world culture. We should have it both ways. I think
Speaker 1: we should remember that Daniel Boone, believe it or not,
Speaker 1: raises a Quaker actually had slaves at least at one point,
Speaker 1: and we should remember that we tend as human beings
Speaker 1: two act the way other people are acting in a
Speaker 1: culture that probably at that time it's it's seemed okay
Speaker 1: because everybody was doing it. To realize that to remember
Speaker 1: that almost Jefferson owned slaves, but did he also of
Speaker 1: hard slavery the strange paradox to remember that Boon did
Speaker 1: other things. It wasn't just owning a slave, right, So
Speaker 1: it's it's possible. What you're what I'm hearing you say
Speaker 1: is that it's very possible for someone to and this
Speaker 1: seems so contrary to what we here happening in society today,
Speaker 1: but it is possible for someone to have parts of
Speaker 1: their life that are very honorable and noble and then
Speaker 1: maybe have one section that wasn't great, and that one
Speaker 1: section doesn't cancel out the honorable and noble. I don't
Speaker 1: think we should look at people's lives just over one issue.
Speaker 1: I mean, you've got to look at take the thing
Speaker 1: all around in a way and try to get some
Speaker 1: understanding of them as a human being with many facets
Speaker 1: at the same time, and keep in mind the values
Speaker 1: of the President. Of course that a historian is looking
Speaker 1: at things through the lens of the present always and
Speaker 1: through their own biases and values. But you can't be
Speaker 1: much of a historian or a biographer unless you're able
Speaker 1: to also see things through the lens of that time.
Speaker 1: Otherwise you will be so limited in your approach. You
Speaker 1: have to have this sympathetic imagination or empathetic imagination, so
Speaker 1: you can try to find out how those people saw things.
Speaker 1: How did the world look to Rebecca Boon two Michael A.
Speaker 1: Stoner to Simon Kenton? I mean, what were they after?
Speaker 1: What are they trying to do? Of course you can't
Speaker 1: do that perfectly, but the point of historical writing is
Speaker 1: to try to imagine what this world was like, what
Speaker 1: had have been like to have Kentucky there? And we
Speaker 1: can say, oh, they destroyed the game, they bought slavery
Speaker 1: into Kentucky. What was Michael Stoner? What was Boon thinking
Speaker 1: of at that time? And they were probably think of
Speaker 1: this great paradise, this thing available, this thing there. I
Speaker 1: can go there, I can I can become a part
Speaker 1: of it. We cannot judge in our own time what
Speaker 1: Land meant to these scotch Irish immigrants who never had
Speaker 1: a foot of land. They could keep. What that meant
Speaker 1: to you, you know, to be able to hunt, to
Speaker 1: be able to own weapons, to have this unlimited continent
Speaker 1: ahead of you. And of course they did things we
Speaker 1: don't approve of, especially to the Indians. They weren't going
Speaker 1: to let Indians stand in the way of this, this
Speaker 1: you know, new world they were trying to build. So
Speaker 1: they were far from perfect people, but they also didn't
Speaker 1: wonderful things and created a sense of a new country,
Speaker 1: a new civilization, historical relativism. I think it's something we
Speaker 1: shouldn't carry too far. I'm hat a bit of a
Speaker 1: loss while gathering my thoughts on this episode. We really
Speaker 1: didn't cover much of Boone's life in part one. We
Speaker 1: made it from his birth to his mid thirties, but
Speaker 1: we're still here in his mid thirties. We dedicated this
Speaker 1: entire time to the Cumberland Gap because of its significance
Speaker 1: on Boon, Indigenous people, and America. Man. I love Daniel
Speaker 1: Boone and I intend to celebrate him. In most parts
Speaker 1: of his life. Boone's passing through the Cumberland Gap was
Speaker 1: truly a physical feat, romanticized and cherished by backwoodsman like myself,
Speaker 1: but it was also deeply metaphorical for America. I liked
Speaker 1: the tension between man and nature, a narrow mountain pass
Speaker 1: and this rugged dude duking it out. But I only
Speaker 1: love it because Boone taught us to love it. It's
Speaker 1: the story we identify with, the one we were born with,
Speaker 1: and that version ridiculously embodies Western thought even in its telling.
Speaker 1: Indigenous people didn't view their lives in conflict with nature.
Speaker 1: They were simply part of it. I'm speculating, but perhaps
Speaker 1: the Indigenous view wouldn't see humans passing through the gap
Speaker 1: as a fight against nature, but rather like the current
Speaker 1: of a flooding river that couldn't be held back. The
Speaker 1: one thing that we know for certain as we look
Speaker 1: at human history is that civilizations rise and fall, and
Speaker 1: very seldom is it just I suspect these are the
Speaker 1: treacherous waters will have to weigh through on this side
Speaker 1: of mortality. Folks, thanks for listening to this episode. You
Speaker 1: can hear me and the crew distill this down next
Speaker 1: week on the Bear Grease Render Podcast, And after that
Speaker 1: we'll put out the third part of our series on
Speaker 1: Daniel Boone and we'll cover some more ground in his life.
Speaker 1: If you've enjoyed this, share it with a buddy. Thanks
Speaker 1: a ton back because baby farmy caress you all for
Speaker 1: your Rod, got Harvey, your he don snap the gap,
Speaker 1: the Gatcary g back holding ties are very do everything gaps.
Speaker 1: Readings are I'm back, Arf the Cap back, Randy r
Speaker 1: Back the Cabary Gap