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Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. Mark Zuckerberg, the CEO

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Speaker 1: of Meta, Facebook's parent company, announced this week that he

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Speaker 1: would be laying off eleven thousand employees due to advertising

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Speaker 1: revenue plummeting on the social network. Elon Musk announced that

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Speaker 1: him being laying off a third of Twitter employees this

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Speaker 1: week in his new role of CEO of Twitter in

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Speaker 1: an effort to try to restructure the organization. So what

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Speaker 1: is the future of Meta Facebook and Twitter and other

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Speaker 1: big tech companies? Here to help us understand what's happening.

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Speaker 1: I'm really pleased to welcome back my guest, Jessica Malusion.

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Speaker 1: She is the director of the Center for Technology and

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Speaker 1: Innovation at the Competitive Enterprise Institute. Jessica, welcome back and

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Speaker 1: thank you for joining me again a news World. It's

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Speaker 1: been a busy week in tech news, and you have

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Speaker 1: more insights than anybody I know. It's my pleasure to

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Speaker 1: be here. I'm excited to talk all things tech with you. Meta.

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Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg's company announced that it is laying off thirteen

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Speaker 1: percent of its staff, or more than eleven thousand employees.

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Speaker 1: And I'm told that they waited until the election to

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Speaker 1: do that, and that Biden actually had been actively calling

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Speaker 1: a variety of these big companies and saying please don't

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Speaker 1: lay them off before the election. Why did they decide

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Speaker 1: to lay off this many people at one time? Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think part of this story is the

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Speaker 1: story of a lot of businesses right now. The economy

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Speaker 1: is not good, too uncertain at the very best, and

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Speaker 1: I think you're going to start to see hiring freezes

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Speaker 1: and downsizing all over the place while things continue like this.

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Speaker 1: But specifically for Mark Zuckerberg, the explanation he gave, of course,

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Speaker 1: is that during COVID lockdowns, we all went on line

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Speaker 1: and it was a real boom on his platform, and

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Speaker 1: he invested and spent and hired like you do when

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Speaker 1: there's a boom, and he believed that this would be

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Speaker 1: sustained afterwards, that this was not a temporary shift to online,

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Speaker 1: This was a societal shift that would linger even after

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Speaker 1: the immediate COVID concerns had passed. And you know, he

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Speaker 1: said as much. That hasn't proven to be the case.

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Speaker 1: And of course, the big thing here is that between

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen and twenty twenty two, he spent thirty six

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Speaker 1: billion investing R and D in virtual reality, which edmeta

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Speaker 1: means the metaverse just fifteen billion this past year. So

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Speaker 1: that is a huge amount of money and a big,

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Speaker 1: big gamble. And whether that gamble pays off eventually, we

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Speaker 1: don't know, but it certainly isn't paying off immediately. And

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Speaker 1: in the macro economic environment, he made the decision that

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Speaker 1: he needs to cut some discretion are spending and that,

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Speaker 1: unfortunately for the people who work there, means that they've

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Speaker 1: been laid off. I'm want to show my naive tay

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Speaker 1: here from her, what is the metaverse? You not knowing

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Speaker 1: exactly means you are at the heart of all forward

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Speaker 1: thinking for the metaverse because nobody knows. I think that

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Speaker 1: what Zuckerberg has done is put a lot of money

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Speaker 1: into gambling on being someone who helps answer that question

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Speaker 1: what will it be? So what's tow did for it

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Speaker 1: to be is perhaps really great things like remote surgeries

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Speaker 1: and remote learning and meetings where you're in a virtual

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Speaker 1: room with your coworkers instead of sitting on in my

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Speaker 1: case sixty six getting into the office doing it. And

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of potential in that, but there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of risk in that because to the point of

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Speaker 1: your question, nobody knows exactly what that will be. To

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Speaker 1: what extent do we want those virtual spaces. We're all

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Speaker 1: going to have to decide that, you know, what's better

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Speaker 1: and more convenient and one more tool in the toolbox

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Speaker 1: of how we learn and work and live, and what's

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Speaker 1: creepy and weird and a pain and confusing. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: have to sort all that out. Wasn't there. It may

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Speaker 1: still be there, but it wasn't there a system called

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Speaker 1: second life, right, There's been these in roads into that,

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Speaker 1: and that might fall a little bit more on the

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Speaker 1: creepy side of things. I think there's practical applications and

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Speaker 1: efficiencies in all of the future of this technology, but

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Speaker 1: I think there's probably things that people will say, no,

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Speaker 1: I want to sit in the same room with real

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Speaker 1: life human beings, and I don't want to do that.

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Speaker 1: You know what I hope, being an optimist about technology

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Speaker 1: and innovation, is that this just becomes a set of

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Speaker 1: more options for people, depending on your circumstance in your

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Speaker 1: situation that day. This is one more way to go

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Speaker 1: about doing things. This isn't a replacement for real things

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Speaker 1: happening in the breaking border real world of fleshy human beings,

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Speaker 1: but this is a substitute when that can't be achieved

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Speaker 1: or when it's easier to do it this way. But

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Speaker 1: you know, obviously Mark Zuckerberg wants to shape those options,

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Speaker 1: at least the immediate ones, and he's willing to spend

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Speaker 1: thirty six billion dollars doing it. And in some sense,

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Speaker 1: that's what we want from entrepreneurs. We want them to

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Speaker 1: put their money where their mouth is. I'm not too

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Speaker 1: proud to be grateful that this is private money and

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Speaker 1: not taxpayer money being gambled with. And we'll see, you know.

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Speaker 1: I suspect that some really cool stuff will come out

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Speaker 1: of this, and some stuff that will laugh about and

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Speaker 1: cringe will come out of it too, and I hope

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Speaker 1: that the market sorts that out by everyone getting to

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Speaker 1: decide what they're in for and what they'd rather not participated.

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Speaker 1: I was in Second Life years ago. I had a

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Speaker 1: character in Second Life and we played with it, and

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Speaker 1: at the time, IBM actually had opened up a laboratory.

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Speaker 1: That's why I'm curious why the metaverse is a big deal,

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Speaker 1: except that we have another fifteen or twenty years of technology.

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Speaker 1: But you know, we played with it, we looked at it.

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Speaker 1: IBM claimed that allowed their people to work across places,

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Speaker 1: and I know that there are some experiments by different

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Speaker 1: companies where, for example, the imagery is so extraordinary you

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Speaker 1: can't tell who's actually in your room and who was

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Speaker 1: in your room virtually. I think the Oculus jump into

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Speaker 1: all of this was obviously the big marker for Meta, right,

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Speaker 1: the purchase of Oculus was a definite new direction and

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Speaker 1: a commitment to really going all in. But I think

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Speaker 1: you're right in the sense that it's not that it's

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Speaker 1: completely new uncharted territory. I was out there. I can't

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Speaker 1: remember now which year it was, but I was out

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Speaker 1: after they had acquired Oculus, and you know, I put

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Speaker 1: on the headset and had a Tyrannosaurus Rex in the

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Speaker 1: room with me, and I will say the most amazing

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Speaker 1: thing was they put me on the top of like

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Speaker 1: a seventy story building and you literally felt like you

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Speaker 1: could fall off. I mean, so the vividness was powerful,

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Speaker 1: but it struck me as being more like the computer

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Speaker 1: games that kids play. Yeah, well, that's exactly right. I

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Speaker 1: think that you're right on both counts because the realness

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Speaker 1: of it, right, if being placed on top of that

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Speaker 1: building can inspire real feelings of vertigo in you. There's

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Speaker 1: something there, I mean that's impressive in some sense. But

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Speaker 1: whether this turns out to be for games or for

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Speaker 1: life will have to see. I have an oculus, and

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Speaker 1: I'm privy to try a lot of these things, and

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Speaker 1: they're incredibly impressive. Being the individualists that I am, don't

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Speaker 1: love meetings in any form, but I will tell you

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Speaker 1: that I can certainly see the merits of having a

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Speaker 1: virtual meeting feel more and more like there are people

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Speaker 1: in the room and they do a good job of that.

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Speaker 1: I think there will be business applications for it. I

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Speaker 1: think the potential really for me is the virtual learning.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the things that you can learn in these ways.

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Speaker 1: I think that's such great news. I mean, I would

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Speaker 1: love to see more information be available to more people

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Speaker 1: who might not have geographical access to it in a

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Speaker 1: way that feels more like you're inner room with someone

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Speaker 1: who's teaching you, rather than reading it off the internet.

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Speaker 1: I think that that's all very hopeful. And I think

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Speaker 1: the oculus or whatever comes next and replaces the oculus, right,

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Speaker 1: because that's how technology works. It's incremental, and there are

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Speaker 1: these lurches forward and maybe Mark Zuckerberg's money won't earn

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Speaker 1: Meta its investment back, but maybe there will be lurches

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Speaker 1: in there forward In terms of progress for this technology.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing new under the sun. This isn't any different.

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Speaker 1: And we looked back at, you know, the Nokia phone

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Speaker 1: not too many years ago, and said, well, I mean

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Speaker 1: this is it, right, like the No one's going to

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Speaker 1: catch no Kia out there on the edge of technology.

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Speaker 1: And now, of course that's ridiculous because of what we

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Speaker 1: all carry around in our pockets. Now, I don't think

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Speaker 1: this is going to be different, right, This is just

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Speaker 1: sort of the chaos that happens at that economic frontier.

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Speaker 1: But is it also sort of a commentary that here's

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Speaker 1: a guy who, as a very very young entrepreneur, figured

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Speaker 1: out the right formula for a particular thing that became

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Speaker 1: universally popular almost worldwide, and his cash flow is so

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Speaker 1: enormous that he must have sat around side of I'm

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Speaker 1: going to have this much cash flow, what could I

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Speaker 1: do that's the next revolution? Comparable to what Facebook was

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Speaker 1: at the time he first launched him. And I think

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Speaker 1: that's kind of in his mind. I suspect he's not

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Speaker 1: sure where he's going either, But he can afford to

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Speaker 1: spend billions seeing whether or not the experiment works. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I completely agree. I mean, this kid stumbled onto something

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Speaker 1: that I remember sitting in my college dorm room looking

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Speaker 1: at the look book too much, being too interested in that.

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Speaker 1: I just didn't have the brains to say, how can

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Speaker 1: I make this electronic and become one of the world's

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Speaker 1: wealthiest people. So full credit to him, and also impressively,

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Speaker 1: whatever you think of his politics, he was a college

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Speaker 1: kid who was able to scale that little discovery of

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Speaker 1: something real and interesting and pretty universal about human beings

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Speaker 1: into one of the world's most successful companies. But I

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Speaker 1: would also humbly suggest that if even that person is

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Speaker 1: sitting in a room thinking about how he's going to

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Speaker 1: have to spend thirty six billion dollars to stay out front,

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Speaker 1: what that suggests to me is that we probably should

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Speaker 1: stop calling Facebook a monopoly. Add that to the list

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Speaker 1: of things that monopolists don't do. They don't spend thirty

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Speaker 1: six billion dollars in two years on research and development,

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Speaker 1: because if you've got it locked down and you don't

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Speaker 1: have to worry about competition and there's barrier to entries,

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Speaker 1: you don't need to spend that money, you can enjoy

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Speaker 1: that cash, and that's not what we see here. So

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Speaker 1: I think the broader policy picture is that the market

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Speaker 1: is at work. I mean, this guy's worried about TikTok,

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Speaker 1: and there's other reasons we might also be worried about TikTok,

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Speaker 1: But from a competitive standpoint, that's a much more popular

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Speaker 1: application in the US now than Facebook. Facebook's growing globally,

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Speaker 1: but in the US its usership is not growing. It

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Speaker 1: might have already peaked here, and perhaps part of that

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Speaker 1: motivation for him to invest in something new and gamble

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Speaker 1: on what the next big thing is is that he

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Speaker 1: wants to be out in front of the next big

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Speaker 1: thing too. I would imagine if you've led your entire

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Speaker 1: adult life being a trailblazer, it would be hard to

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Speaker 1: see that sort of fade into the sunset. Maybe that's

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Speaker 1: what's happening. But whether it does or whether it doesn't,

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Speaker 1: whether he's right or he's wrong, I am heartened to

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Speaker 1: see that the competitive forces are still at work in

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Speaker 1: the market. And whether it's the metaverse or it's something

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Speaker 1: we haven't thought of yet, things are changing and things

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Speaker 1: are improving, and that's what American consumers want. They want

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Speaker 1: the next big thing. We're already spoiled by the current

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Speaker 1: big thing. We're already taking that for granted. It is

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Speaker 1: interesting to watch. I mean, TikTok is a parallel but

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Speaker 1: very different system and has its own particularly a set

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Speaker 1: of appeals, and something will presently come along to challenge TikTok.

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Speaker 1: One of the great serial entrepreneurs is Elon Musk, who's

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Speaker 1: very different from Zuckerberg in a lot of different ways.

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Speaker 1: From PayPal to Tesla, to SpaceX to the battery company

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Speaker 1: to name it. He has this extraordinary capacity to figure

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Speaker 1: out the basics and get profound breakthroughs. I remember years

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Speaker 1: ago when Tesla was really just starting. They had figured

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Speaker 1: out they could just buy commercial batteries in huge numbers,

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Speaker 1: put them all together, and at one time they were

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Speaker 1: having it done in Thailand, and they figured out they

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Speaker 1: could actually do achieve in San Jose, California. It was

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Speaker 1: a simple insight, but it allowed them to undercut all

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Speaker 1: the major auto companies who were involved in engineering very

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Speaker 1: sophisticated approaches. And then he turned and he figured out

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Speaker 1: you could build rockets on their side. He's the first

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Speaker 1: person ever to build a horizontal rocket rather than a

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Speaker 1: vertical rocket, and something which Bob Walker and I had

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Speaker 1: pioneered in trying to get Nassa ten years earlier to

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Speaker 1: build a reusable rocket. They got four hundred million dollars

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Speaker 1: and couldn't do it. And he comes along and he

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Speaker 1: builds a reusable rocket. He now has a Henry Ford

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Speaker 1: style mass production of rockets in a way nobody's ever

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Speaker 1: dreamed of. So then he turns around and instead of

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Speaker 1: focusing on improving Tesla or finally fixing the rocket that's

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Speaker 1: going to take us to the Moon, which will probably

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Speaker 1: fly for the first time the next month or so,

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Speaker 1: Pavos and says, oh, Twitter is a really potentially great

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Speaker 1: acquisition both politically, is fun, and I think I can

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Speaker 1: figure out a way to make it much more profitable.

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Speaker 1: Then he buys Twitter. I mean, how do you account

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Speaker 1: for all this? Well, I mean, this is why we're

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Speaker 1: so fascinated by Elon, and I think perhaps Zuckerberg has

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Speaker 1: some aspirations in this area too. Right, It's one thing

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Speaker 1: and very impressive to do it once, but Elon in

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Speaker 1: some sense is in a different league because, just as

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Speaker 1: you were saying, he does it over and over and

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Speaker 1: over again. It doesn't mean that there's not failures and

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Speaker 1: mistakes along the way. He's refreshingly the first person to

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Speaker 1: admit that. But he does seem to have a real

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Speaker 1: gift for a certain amount of looking forward in an

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Speaker 1: intelligent way but also a very practical, scrappy side that

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Speaker 1: seems to merge these great, big ideas that seem very

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Speaker 1: theoretical and sort of far fetched to most of us.

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Speaker 1: But he makes it happen, right, I mean, he makes

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Speaker 1: electric cars cool, and he's going to probably put us

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Speaker 1: on the moon. And all I can say about Elon

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Speaker 1: Musk and Twitter is that if anyone can figure it out,

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Speaker 1: he would be on my list of people to give

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Speaker 1: it a shot. You know, I don't know what's going

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Speaker 1: to happen there. This is like what feeds him these challenges,

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Speaker 1: and we all benefit from people like that, right, We

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Speaker 1: all need people who are at the forefront pushing it

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Speaker 1: because that all filters down to us eventually, every single

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Speaker 1: one of us. And thank god for Elon Musk, because

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Speaker 1: I sure as head couldn't have figured out how to

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Speaker 1: make that rocket on its side. But I think tying

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Speaker 1: it back to the Zuckerberg thing again, I think that

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Speaker 1: that's part of the thing. Once you're on that ride

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Speaker 1: of success, you don't want to get off. You want

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Speaker 1: to keep finding the next new thing. And I agree

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Speaker 1: with you that Twitter is a bold choice. But again,

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Speaker 1: if anyone can figure it out, Twitter has sort of

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Speaker 1: two parallel stories. Though. One is the whole political in

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Speaker 1: fighting over canceling people including the President United States and

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Speaker 1: the fourth largest newspaper and oldest newspaper in the United States.

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Speaker 1: But in addition, there's a commercial side, and it seems

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Speaker 1: to me that Twitter has never come anywhere close to

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Speaker 1: match its potential. Yeah, I think we're unpacking the details

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Speaker 1: of that right now. As influential as Twitter is and

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Speaker 1: as much time as we all spend musing about it

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Speaker 1: and making fun of it and fretting about it, it's

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Speaker 1: a very niche thing compared to big, broad social media

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Speaker 1: platforms like Facebook, where everyone from your grandmother to businesses

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Speaker 1: to community groups to major corporations advertising everyone's on Facebook.

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Speaker 1: But Twitter is a much more narrow band, and I

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Speaker 1: think that there are potential opportunities to make that successful.

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Speaker 1: But Twitter's problem is that it's a niche thing that

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Speaker 1: operates in a bigger political conversation that those things are

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Speaker 1: kind of disparate. Twitter's a business, but most of the

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Speaker 1: people who are on Twitter and active on Twitter, I

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Speaker 1: don't think that they would tell you or necessarily immediately

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Speaker 1: agree that what is t's main purpose. I mean, now

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Speaker 1: it's a private company, so it's a little different. But

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Speaker 1: when it was publicly owned, its purpose was to return

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Speaker 1: a profit to shareholders. That's what businesses do. And Twitter

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Speaker 1: got bogged down and being about this sort of theoretical

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Speaker 1: idea of free speech and all these other ideals that

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Speaker 1: didn't really allow that space to make money. Right, It's

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Speaker 1: never been profitable. And Elon, who I do believe is

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Speaker 1: sincerely interested in moving towards a more inclusive content approach

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Speaker 1: on Twitter, more ideas, different ideas, and letting as much

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Speaker 1: speech stay up as you can. It's going to have

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Speaker 1: to balance that with the natural tension of corporate advertisers

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Speaker 1: not wanting their ad popping up next to some things

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Speaker 1: that might not even make that company feel uncomfortable. But

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Speaker 1: they're very aware that there's a well funded world of

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Speaker 1: activists out there who are ready to pounce on any

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Speaker 1: company that it doesn't bend to their will. And I

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Speaker 1: think that that's a real financial threat to those companies.

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Speaker 1: So therefore that becomes attention for Elon at Twitter is

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Speaker 1: that he's presented these dual goals of we want to

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Speaker 1: make this thing profitable and successful, and we also want

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Speaker 1: to open it up to more and different content. And

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Speaker 1: I think what has to happen is perhaps a more

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Speaker 1: bottom up approach and that we all need to become

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Speaker 1: more tolerant of other people's opinions that we don't agree with.

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Speaker 1: And that's a real issue these days. Right that I

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Speaker 1: can't even be around that or I'm somehow harmed or triggered.

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Speaker 1: That is not a mark of a free society. Right,

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be our default reaction when someone says something we

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Speaker 1: disagree with. That's not how we've been operating for a

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Speaker 1: long time, but it certainly seems to be how a

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Speaker 1: lot of America reacts to things now, and people who

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Speaker 1: make money off advertising have to deal with that reality

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Speaker 1: in the public. And we're going to see how Elon

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Speaker 1: tackle that. He is supposedly the richest man in the world,

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Speaker 1: worth something like two hundred billion dollars. However one figures

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Speaker 1: these things out, But he didn't put up forty four

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Speaker 1: billion dollars. I mean he went out and got a

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Speaker 1: whole bunch of investors. That's probably why he's still one

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Speaker 1: of the wealthiest people in the world. Right, don't have

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Speaker 1: a boat, have a friend with a boat, but on

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Speaker 1: steroids if you're a billionaire, I would say it's the

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Speaker 1: same principle maybe, And he got a group of very

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Speaker 1: prestigious investors, oddly enough, including the former CEO of Twitter.

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Speaker 1: But he also got the saladies in. I think he

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Speaker 1: got somebody from Gutter to come in, and then he

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Speaker 1: got the usual guys out in Silicon Valley, some of

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Speaker 1: whom probably figured, look, I've made so much money off

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Speaker 1: of Hulan, why not take another flyer and see if

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Speaker 1: this one works too. So he has the cash to

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Speaker 1: actually survive in pulling this thing together. And a mutual

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Speaker 1: friend was pointing out to me that they came very

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Speaker 1: close having to close Tesla, and they came very close

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Speaker 1: to having to close SpaceX, and each time he had

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Speaker 1: to stop focus work his way through it. And apparently

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Speaker 1: he pulled in more than fifty Tesla engineers to work

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Speaker 1: at Twitter and brought in his own team, fired the

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Speaker 1: two senior staff. But as I understand it. When he

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Speaker 1: went through a pretty massive layoff of ten percent of

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Speaker 1: the employees, about seventy five hundred people, he then found

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Speaker 1: out that some of them they had to bring back

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Speaker 1: because in fact, there were certain specialized areas where nobody

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Speaker 1: from Tesla was going to be able to figure it out.

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Speaker 1: His style is, I think, willfully chaotic and just keep

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Speaker 1: churning until you break through. How do you measure because

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Speaker 1: you watch all this, you know this one hundred times

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Speaker 1: better than I do. How do you measure the first

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Speaker 1: cycle here of Elon Musk at Twitter. Well, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean he's jumping in the deep end, right, and you

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Speaker 1: know better than anyone. I mean, in some sense with

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Speaker 1: all the firings, I thought to myself, while staff is policy, right,

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Speaker 1: he's clearing it out. He's going to put in people

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Speaker 1: that he trusts, people that he respects, and some of

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Speaker 1: that's going to have overlap from Tesla, and some of

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Speaker 1: it is going to be more specialized in these areas.

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Speaker 1: But having Jack Dorsey there, someone who ran Twitter for

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Speaker 1: many years and I think has similar and sincere interests

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Speaker 1: in expanding the scope of speech on the platform makes

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Speaker 1: sense to me. Listen, there's plenty of models for how

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Speaker 1: you make it profitable, but again he's trying to do

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Speaker 1: that in a way that also expands speech, and that's

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Speaker 1: the tension there. I think that there probably was some

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Speaker 1: house cleaning do. Twitter has never been known for being

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Speaker 1: particularly a tight ship. You know, there probably was some

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Speaker 1: clean up to do. And we'll see if he went

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Speaker 1: too far a little bit. Maybe yes, because he's brought

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Speaker 1: people back. This is not new to him. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he loves to run this up against the edge. He

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Speaker 1: was sleeping in the Tesla factory while he was focusing

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Speaker 1: on it. He's done a great job. Content moderation is

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Speaker 1: really hard at scale, right because as one person's satire

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Speaker 1: is the other person's trigger, and the speech stuff is

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Speaker 1: very hard to quantify. And we know that because as

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Speaker 1: Americans we try. What we've said is we kind of

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Speaker 1: keep our hands off of it because it's such a

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Speaker 1: subjective thing. But the nuts and bolts of a platform

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Speaker 1: is that this is an advertising business and he's going

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Speaker 1: to have to get his hands dirty making some of

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Speaker 1: those tough calls. And he's in a really difficult regulatory

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Speaker 1: environment because the left and the right is mad at

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Speaker 1: these platforms for different reasons, but everybody can agree they're unhappy,

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Speaker 1: and the legislation that exists right now to deal with

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Speaker 1: them is a mess. And back to the Meta point.

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Speaker 1: All the big an I trust legislation has a floor

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Speaker 1: on it that says, this means you if your market

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Speaker 1: cap is at five to fifty billion or more, well,

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Speaker 1: that works great until you've gone around kind of bashing

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Speaker 1: Meta and bashing Zuckerberg and then oh oops, you know

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Speaker 1: their market cap is half of that right now? Right

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Speaker 1: the market's sort of taking care of that, and they

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Speaker 1: don't even qualify to be regulated in this way. So

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Speaker 1: Elon and Mark Zuckerberg have real challenges with the macro economy.

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Speaker 1: They have real threats from Washington and state governments too, actually,

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Speaker 1: and they have a hard job to do right, and

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Speaker 1: they're going to make mistakes and then they're going to

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Speaker 1: have successes. And again, this is the genius of the

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Speaker 1: system of capitalism, right because when they make mistakes, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't cost me anything. And when they have successes, I

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Speaker 1: get a cool new thing. So to me, the ups

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Speaker 1: and downs of it are fun to watch because it's

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Speaker 1: fun to watch human beings innovate and succeed. But the

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Speaker 1: big picture here is that things are moving generally forward.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't mean there's not problems. It doesn't mean we don't

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Speaker 1: have very legitimate complaints. But we're making progress and things

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Speaker 1: are getting better here, and that's great news. That's fascinating

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Speaker 1: to watch the evolution that's underway. Yeah, it's fascinating to

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Speaker 1: watch the emotional reaction to this Twitter thing. You know,

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Speaker 1: there are people who happily and successfully live their lives

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Speaker 1: without Twitter. They seem to be able to go on.

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Speaker 1: But the people who really have made it a part

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Speaker 1: of their identity or a part of their career are

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Speaker 1: very invested in it continuing and have very strong opinions

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Speaker 1: about what should change and what should And that's been

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Speaker 1: sort of fascinating for those of us. I use it

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Speaker 1: as a work tool, but I would be able to

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Speaker 1: go on without it. I'm happy it exists, but it's

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Speaker 1: not who I am. But to see some of the

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Speaker 1: reactions to just Elon discussing these changes right, just kind

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Speaker 1: of floating them, has been much more emotionally charged than

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Speaker 1: I would have expected. One other thing about Elon, which

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00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 1: is he apparently successfully moved his communication satellites over Ukraine

433
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: in a way which turned out to be extraordinarily helpful. Mean,

434
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 1: it's almost like he's the equivalent of one of the

435
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: NATO countries and having provided them almost instantaneously with a

436
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,199
Speaker 1: dramatic breakthrough in communications. I mean, don't you find that

437
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 1: an extraordinary level of capability? I sure do. I sure do.

438
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 1: And I find it to be more extraordinary that it

439
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 1: came from a private actor in society than a government action,

440
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 1: which is remarkable. I mean, it's remarkable what he's able

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00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: to do, and obviously he has access to an enormous

442
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 1: amount of capital, but there is a brilliance in him

443
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 1: too that has facilitated that. Listen, I expect eventually, if

444
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 1: he does more of those things, we'll just see him

445
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: wearing some sort of superhero costume around. I guess. Probably

446
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: one other area of current evolution, what is the impact

447
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:52,160
Speaker 1: of Elon Musk taking over Twitter on truth social One

448
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 1: thing I like to say it always at the top

449
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: of these conversations is, obviously, these social media platforms work

450
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: because there's a critical mass of people there, and there's

451
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 1: the people you want to hear from, or maybe you

452
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: don't want to hear from, but secretly it's thrilling. But

453
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: that being said, you know, if I were former President

454
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, I would seriously consider being on more than

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00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: one platform. I mean, there's no great cost at saying

456
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to be on truth Social and I'm going

457
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 1: to be on Twitter. And I think that the analogy

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00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: I use is always sort of cable news channels. You

459
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 1: can certainly decide to watch only MSNBC or only Fox News,

460
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: but you can also flip back and forth and check

461
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: out what the other side saying and sort it all out.

462
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: And I think that Elon taking over Twitter and the

463
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: rise of truth Social are both really positive signs for

464
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 1: space in this market for something different, right, Because if

465
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: this many people are really fed up with the content

466
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: moderation policies of old Twitter or current Facebook, you know,

467
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: or fill in your platform YouTube, that immediately means that

468
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: there's an opportunity for something new and different to come

469
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 1: along and provide an alternative. And I think that's ultimately

470
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 1: the answer. This stuff moves so fast that I just

471
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 1: don't think regulating and regulating tolerance and regulating that's really

472
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 1: tall order. I don't want people to just be in

473
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 1: their own echo chamber. I don't think that's healthy. That

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00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: being said, I think the average social media users are

475
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 1: on six different platforms that includes LinkedIn and a lot

476
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: of other things. But I think that's probably the healthy

477
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,959
Speaker 1: way because you know, the answer to CNN when it

478
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: was the only one, wasn't the fairness doctrine. The answer

479
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: to CNN was Fox News. So for me, like, let's go,

480
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 1: let's let Elon jump in true social let's go, let's

481
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 1: let all these guys fight it out for eyeballs. I'm

482
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 1: all for it. Are there any other developments in big

483
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 1: tech that you're watching that you think will be sort

484
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: of the next big surprise? I think there's going to

485
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: be more user friendly moves into new social media platforms

486
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: that are decentralized, meaning that there's not a top down

487
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: content moderation meeting. The little club you join agrees on

488
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: a group of rules, and I think if you look

489
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 1: at how people live, that's a much more organic and

490
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: natural approach. Right Like, sometimes when I'm walking the city streets,

491
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: I have to kind of be with everyone. I don't

492
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: get to pick, but when I pick my church or

493
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: my social groups, I do sort myself into groups that

494
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: maybe challenge me, but probably more likely agree with me,

495
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: and that I find easy and I think that probably

496
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,479
Speaker 1: will start to be reflected a little bit more on

497
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: social media, and I think part of that's the true

498
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: social and the elon, but part of that is a

499
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: decentralized approach where it just gets a little bit easier

500
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: to sort yourself into those groups. And maybe you're just

501
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 1: not seeing things that offend you to such a degree

502
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,719
Speaker 1: that you call your congressmen and say, I can't believe

503
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: you're letting this be up here, or alternatively, I can't

504
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: believe they're not letting this be up here. I think

505
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: we can work this out, right, We've worked this out

506
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: in real life, where we pick where we live and

507
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: where we worship and where we go to school more

508
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,959
Speaker 1: and more, I hope, my hope is that that happens

509
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: too in the virtual world, and even in the metaverse.

510
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 1: You know, the metaverse isn't going to be the only

511
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: virtual reality, so we're going to have to make those

512
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: same trade offs and be respectful. But good fences make

513
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: good neighbors, even in cyberspace. I think you have a

514
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: fascinating area that you pay attention to, you're obviously deeply

515
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: engaged in it, and I hope that you'll join us

516
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 1: again over time as things keep evolving, because I find

517
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 1: it always fascinating us to listen to you and get

518
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,479
Speaker 1: your insights because you understand it's so much better than

519
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: I do. I can't imagine that's true, but it's such

520
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 1: a pleasure to talk with you about it, and I

521
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 1: would do it anytime, any day. Thank you to my guests, Jessica,

522
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 1: I'm illusion. You can learn more about the big tech

523
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: layoffs on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld

524
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: is produced by Gingwish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive

525
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: producer is Garnsey Sloan, our producer is Rebecca Howell, and

526
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show

527
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team

528
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 1: at Gingwish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I

529
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us

530
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 1: with five stars and give us a review so others

531
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of

532
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: Newtsworld can sign up for my three free weekly columns

533
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: at Gingwish three sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm newt Gingrich.

534
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: This is Newtsworld