Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big
Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners. Wherever
Speaker 1: you are in the world, it is so great to
Speaker 1: have you here. Back for another episode as we of
Speaker 1: course break down the Psychology of your twenties. So a
Speaker 1: few weeks ago, I got a DM from one of
Speaker 1: you the listeners about a really toxic workplace. This listener,
Speaker 1: and she's given me permission to talk about her story.
Speaker 1: She told me about how she had recently quit a
Speaker 1: job that she'd had for two years, and she said
Speaker 1: to me, this job she felt more like a terrible
Speaker 1: relationship than a job, than a way of making money.
Speaker 1: And she was telling me all these details about how
Speaker 1: her managers would call her after work hours to get
Speaker 1: her to respond to feedback. They would ask her to
Speaker 1: work weekends to do the tasks that they were unable
Speaker 1: to do, saying that this was all part of her
Speaker 1: job description, this is what she signed up for. And
Speaker 1: at the same time, she wasn't really getting any perks,
Speaker 1: she was getting paid very poorly. They wouldn't invite her
Speaker 1: to any of like the workplace events. They would like
Speaker 1: criticize her openly in front of other employees, like terrible,
Speaker 1: terrible things. And she quit that job three months ago,
Speaker 1: and in that period of time, she's been looking for
Speaker 1: a new job, and she has found that, you know,
Speaker 1: even applying for new jobs, even looking through new job
Speaker 1: applications would make her anxious, Going into job interviews would
Speaker 1: make her panic, would make her want to cry, run away, escape,
Speaker 1: And this all letter to believe that you may be
Speaker 1: her previous job had caused her like a degree of trauma,
Speaker 1: and reading her messages, I had to agree with her,
Speaker 1: and I realized that there are probably a lot of
Speaker 1: other people going through this right now. And yet we
Speaker 1: haven't done an episode on how to deal with this situation,
Speaker 1: how to deal with a really toxic workplace. We talk
Speaker 1: a lot on this podcast about finding your calling, how
Speaker 1: to accelerate at work, how to navigate career anxiety, but
Speaker 1: we haven't really spoken about what to do when you
Speaker 1: have a great job, you have maybe your dream job,
Speaker 1: you finally found a sustainable, secure, profession, and it turns
Speaker 1: out that the workplace that you've walked into is incredibly toxic.
Speaker 1: Now you're kind of in that state where you're dreading
Speaker 1: going to work, your confidence is shattered, you want to quit,
Speaker 1: but you don't have the means, you don't know how.
Speaker 1: And this is exactly what I want to discussed today.
Speaker 1: It's something that a lot of us go through during
Speaker 1: the early days of our career, especially in our twenties,
Speaker 1: and how do we survive a terrible job, but also
Speaker 1: not just how do we survive when we're currently in it,
Speaker 1: how do we move on from that experience and kind
Speaker 1: of find a job that respects you and that you love.
Speaker 1: Work is a massive part of our identity, so when
Speaker 1: it's going wrong, it's hard for other things to not
Speaker 1: be going wrong as well. I've had experiences like this,
Speaker 1: and I'll share one of those experiences that I've had
Speaker 1: later on, because it really can lead us, you know,
Speaker 1: leave us to be quite quite broken, for lack of
Speaker 1: a better word. And there is also, of course, a
Speaker 1: lot of evidence for this being the case. And whilst
Speaker 1: there is a lot of evidence, there is little acknowledgment
Speaker 1: of that evidence. So a lot of the time, we
Speaker 1: might be in this situation thinking that we're overreacting, thinking
Speaker 1: that we're being dramatic. But time and time again, we
Speaker 1: see studies, case studies, surveys, poll that show that a
Speaker 1: lot of people experience during this, experience this during their lifetime,
Speaker 1: and also it impacts them greatly. So we're going to
Speaker 1: discuss all of that evidence and the psychology that links
Speaker 1: toxic workplaces to our psychology and our mental health. How
Speaker 1: to tell if your workplace is toxic, the different types
Speaker 1: of toxicity at a job, and also, of course again
Speaker 1: how to survive and how to thrive afterwards. I have
Speaker 1: a number of tips to share. I have a number
Speaker 1: of lived experiences to share as well. So if you
Speaker 1: can relate to having a seriously traumatic former job, former boss,
Speaker 1: current job, current boss, current workplace, stay with us. Without
Speaker 1: further ado, let's get into toxic workplaces. Experiencing a toxic
Speaker 1: workplace or a toxic work environment takes a huge and
Speaker 1: an unspoken toll on our mental wellbeing, and it really
Speaker 1: does actually surprise me how little we tend to discuss
Speaker 1: this fact. We talk a lot about relationship trauma, friendship trauma,
Speaker 1: experiences with mental health or with physical illness. But work
Speaker 1: is also a significant pillar of our life. But you know,
Speaker 1: when we have a toxic relationship with our workplace or
Speaker 1: in a work environment, we don't really speak about how
Speaker 1: negatively formative it can be. You know, when that is
Speaker 1: not going well, it begins to affect everything else. But
Speaker 1: you kind of feel silly talking about it. You feel
Speaker 1: silly having to explain it. You know, everyone's job sucks,
Speaker 1: no one likes to work. But I want to assure
Speaker 1: you right now, a toxic workplace does bring a certain
Speaker 1: kind of emotional experience and it is not an easy
Speaker 1: thing to go through to really kind of, you know,
Speaker 1: examine and illustrate why that is. Consider this recent statistic
Speaker 1: from Gettysburg College in the US. This statistic suggests that
Speaker 1: you and I we are probably going to spend around
Speaker 1: and ninety thousand hours at work across our lifetime. That
Speaker 1: is about one third of our lives. If one third
Speaker 1: of your waking hours were spent in a place where
Speaker 1: you didn't feel welcome, you were constantly stressed, you are
Speaker 1: under intense pressure or scrutiny, you are treated poorly, you
Speaker 1: are going to see that manifest in all other areas
Speaker 1: of your life. But at the same time, there is
Speaker 1: this expectation that you should be able to detach if
Speaker 1: we just build up our lives enough beyond work, if
Speaker 1: we get a few hobbies, if we turn off our emails.
Speaker 1: You know, as soon as our shift ends or it
Speaker 1: hits five o'clock, we should be successfully able to turn
Speaker 1: off completely and like shape shift back into the normal
Speaker 1: version of ourselves. Most of us, though, no, that is
Speaker 1: not true. We know that it's very hard to have
Speaker 1: that separation because when you spend that much time in
Speaker 1: a job, a profession, and environment, it will ultimately influence
Speaker 1: your personality, your thoughts, your beliefs, even your sense of hope,
Speaker 1: and it also becomes kind of like a defining feature
Speaker 1: of how other people identify you as well. You know,
Speaker 1: what's the first question that you are inevitably going to
Speaker 1: be asked in a new social situation at basically every party,
Speaker 1: every social situation, every conference that you go to. What
Speaker 1: do you do for work? It is inescapable. This can
Speaker 1: create a psychological state that we know as enmeshment. So
Speaker 1: in meshment, this concept was originally used to describe codependency
Speaker 1: in families, and especially in families where there was a
Speaker 1: lack of boundaries, and it meant that there was kind
Speaker 1: of no way of separating. You know, a parent and
Speaker 1: a child or a sibling. Everything was intertwined. They did
Speaker 1: everything together. They had all the same beliefs, they had
Speaker 1: the same routine in their lives were enmeshed. This can
Speaker 1: also happen with your your job or with the workplace.
Speaker 1: When a disproportionate amount of time is spent at work,
Speaker 1: is spent talking about work, is focused on your career,
Speaker 1: is spent with co workers, there needs to be a
Speaker 1: natural separation of some sort. Otherwise we do kind of
Speaker 1: end up tying everything back to our job and that
Speaker 1: it's going to directly impact their self worth and our
Speaker 1: self worth. It's important to remember that I think the
Speaker 1: current culture around work is very different to what it
Speaker 1: was a few years back. It is very hard to disconnect. Actually,
Speaker 1: in Australia we just passed right to disconnect laws, which
Speaker 1: basically means that if you don't answer your boss's text
Speaker 1: at seven pm, they like can't fire you, they can't
Speaker 1: say anything about it, which is an amazing step forward.
Speaker 1: But a lot of us will still check our work
Speaker 1: emails after seven pm on the weekends because it's so
Speaker 1: much more accessible. And I think because I don't know,
Speaker 1: I just feel like previously our career was just the
Speaker 1: thing that we did to make money. Now there's a
Speaker 1: lot more glory to it. It's the thing that you
Speaker 1: can brag about. It's this thing that identifies you, it's
Speaker 1: this thing that others use to kind of place you
Speaker 1: in their life. This is all basically a long way
Speaker 1: of saying that you know, work is such a huge
Speaker 1: part of who you are, and more so the further
Speaker 1: along you get into this decade. It's a very common
Speaker 1: experience that as you age, the circles that represent friends, play, socializing, hobbies,
Speaker 1: free time, leisure, those circles get a lot smaller, and
Speaker 1: the circles representing work, responsibility, career they get larger. And sorry,
Speaker 1: one more point on this as well. When you are
Speaker 1: in the early stages of your career, you want to
Speaker 1: do everything right, and you want to be good, and
Speaker 1: you want to be praised and you want to be promoted.
Speaker 1: You know, you're also probably the least experienced. You don't
Speaker 1: have as much knowledge, and that can again also lead
Speaker 1: to a real hustle called the mentality of like you
Speaker 1: know I have to be the one staying late. I
Speaker 1: have to be the one who never makes mistakes. I
Speaker 1: have to put up with whatever is thrown my way,
Speaker 1: including a toxic culture or a bad work environment, because
Speaker 1: you know everyone has done it before me. This is
Speaker 1: just how it is, this is what is expected. I
Speaker 1: can't say anything. I cannot say anything because all jobs
Speaker 1: are like this. I just have to put up with it.
Speaker 1: And in those circumstances you have to take very special
Speaker 1: care of your wellbeing. I want to kind of tell
Speaker 1: you a story of my worst job. I want to
Speaker 1: tell you a story of my most toxic workplace. So
Speaker 1: the worst job I have ever worked, by far was
Speaker 1: back when I was at university in Canberra and I
Speaker 1: worked at a restaurant and I'm not going home and
Speaker 1: said the name. I'm not going to say the name,
Speaker 1: but it was a stake restaurant and it was very expensive.
Speaker 1: So a lot of like CEOs and government people and
Speaker 1: people in town for work who wanted to spend big
Speaker 1: on a meal would come to this restaurant. And it
Speaker 1: looked very lovely from the outside, it looked very like
Speaker 1: designer luxury, but behind the scenes it was just awful.
Speaker 1: It was a walking hr disaster. There were like three
Speaker 1: things that made it really really terrible. Firstly, there was
Speaker 1: a group of people, group of women who had worked
Speaker 1: there for like years, some of them for like five years,
Speaker 1: super clicky, and they were all like managers and supervisors,
Speaker 1: and they were all friends and they would go on
Speaker 1: holiday together. They were honestly just terrific. So new people
Speaker 1: would start like myself, and they would kind of almost Oh,
Speaker 1: they also lived together. I remember that being part of it.
Speaker 1: Some of them lived in the same house, and you
Speaker 1: would start and they would like vet you to just
Speaker 1: see if you were like one of them, and if
Speaker 1: even one of them didn't like you, they didn't think
Speaker 1: that you were like working hard enough, or you weren't
Speaker 1: going to like pick up their shifts, so do whatever
Speaker 1: they said. They would make your life awful. I remember
Speaker 1: one time getting yelled at by one of the senior
Speaker 1: girls who worked there for coming into work and immediately
Speaker 1: making myself a glass of water because I used to
Speaker 1: ride my bike all the way from like Uni and
Speaker 1: it would be really really hot in the summertime, and
Speaker 1: I would have to wear this black outfit and I'd
Speaker 1: ride my bike from Uni to work, and I would
Speaker 1: make myself a glass of water, make myself a drink
Speaker 1: glass of water, and she was like, you are incredibly entitled.
Speaker 1: You don't even have your apron on, you haven't even
Speaker 1: like clocked in yet. And it was just that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff, like they wanted to make your life difficult,
Speaker 1: and like during the busy period, all the junior staff
Speaker 1: would be working and they would be like out the
Speaker 1: back gossiping. So that was the first component, was the click.
Speaker 1: Then there was the boss. And I cannot even begin
Speaker 1: to tell you how much I dislike this man and
Speaker 1: the dread I would have when working with him alone.
Speaker 1: And he would like deliberately try and make you uncomfortable
Speaker 1: as a joke, and like you'd be scheduled to finish
Speaker 1: at nine, but if he did just one small thing
Speaker 1: to annoy him, or you know, you wouldn't laugh at
Speaker 1: his joke, he'd make you stay until eleven, just with him,
Speaker 1: just you and him, in this like one restaurant, and
Speaker 1: he would make you wipe down everything again and again
Speaker 1: and again, and then make you go down in the
Speaker 1: elevator with him and make these like disgusting jokes whilst
Speaker 1: no one was like there he was so gross. He
Speaker 1: was so gross, and he would yell at you, he
Speaker 1: would pretend to trip you, and when we were closed,
Speaker 1: he'd like bring all of his buddies to get drunk,
Speaker 1: and you would have to stay on shift to like
Speaker 1: serve them free alcohol, otherwise you would get fired. And
Speaker 1: you know, oh my god, sorry I'm going on about
Speaker 1: this man, but he is a terrible man. And I
Speaker 1: remember for years afterwards, if I thought I would see him,
Speaker 1: I would like I would be scared. You know, those
Speaker 1: people you just look at and like there's nothing in
Speaker 1: the eyes. That was it. And then finally they were
Speaker 1: just the customers, you know. They were so rude, and
Speaker 1: I think that they definitely expected a lot from their
Speaker 1: experience because they were paying for the experience. But the
Speaker 1: kitchen was understaffed. We were off and down three people
Speaker 1: because all the senior people would be in the break
Speaker 1: room and our boss was like never going to stand
Speaker 1: up for us. And that time was so terrible for
Speaker 1: me because every night I would go to work and
Speaker 1: I would get paid not very much, and I would
Speaker 1: just cry before I had to ride my bike over
Speaker 1: and I wanted to quit so badly, and I would
Speaker 1: get anxious walking through the door. Everyone was so on edge,
Speaker 1: so there wasn't even like a camaraderie or a friendship
Speaker 1: that could sustain you when it got bad. And I
Speaker 1: was like in my early twenties at the time, so
Speaker 1: it just felt like, you know, this is something I
Speaker 1: have to tolerate. I have to just take it because I'm
Speaker 1: trying to finish my degree. And you know, I was
Speaker 1: just like getting sick, sick with worry about going away
Speaker 1: and thinking that this was like everything to me, this job.
Speaker 1: Like I'd be thinking about like something missed, some mistake
Speaker 1: I did, and how I could fix that like the
Speaker 1: next day, and like all these things, and it just
Speaker 1: took such a significant toll. And in hindsight, you know,
Speaker 1: I still have nightmares. I oh my god, remembering this.
Speaker 1: I had a nightmare last night about this colleague who
Speaker 1: I worked with, and that was like how many years ago,
Speaker 1: seven six seven years ago, and she was like following
Speaker 1: me around my house like that was literally a dream
Speaker 1: I had about her last night, and I was so
Speaker 1: I was so scared, like not outside the dream but
Speaker 1: back at the job to quit. And on my last shift,
Speaker 1: I called in sick actually, which I think was like
Speaker 1: one of three times I have ever done that, And
Speaker 1: then I blocked all of their numbers and all of
Speaker 1: their Facebook profiles because that was how they used to
Speaker 1: like talk to us back then. And I just was like,
Speaker 1: I'm never gonna I don't want to interact with you
Speaker 1: ever again. And I know that I am not the
Speaker 1: only one who has had this experience. This is just
Speaker 1: one example, a hospitality example, right, And I think my
Speaker 1: experience the toxicity came from the people. There was this
Speaker 1: level of harassment and bullying and intimidation that takes an
Speaker 1: emotional toll, specifically because it has to do with an
Speaker 1: underlying sense of security and I would even say safety
Speaker 1: when I was there, and the uncertainty that each shift would,
Speaker 1: you know, bring something new and not in a fun way,
Speaker 1: but in like a destructive, anxiety inducing way. I don't
Speaker 1: think anyone who worked at this restaurant at the time
Speaker 1: was like having a good time. And interestingly, I actually
Speaker 1: read a study the other day that was conducted in
Speaker 1: China back in twenty twenty one, and what the study
Speaker 1: said was that when a workplace in general, when the
Speaker 1: culture is toxic, the feeling becomes toxic amongst the coworkers,
Speaker 1: and it means that they are more likely to ostracize, bully,
Speaker 1: be quite cruel because they themselves feel like they have
Speaker 1: so little control and they are so dissatisfied. That is
Speaker 1: often the root of workplace bullying and workplace intimidation and
Speaker 1: just meanness and cruelty is that these individuals recognize that
Speaker 1: they're actually not happy themselves, but there's this like sadistic
Speaker 1: need to see that unhappiness reflected back in someone else.
Speaker 1: And this can extend all the way from the top
Speaker 1: of night and I mean like your bosses, you know,
Speaker 1: they start to feel this shift as well, and they
Speaker 1: start to act in a way that's just like very
Speaker 1: unkind they and you don't feel respected, you don't feel
Speaker 1: like you can speak up, You feel completely stuck. This
Speaker 1: really links back to me towards a theme or a
Speaker 1: lack of respect, and that also extends to other kinds
Speaker 1: of workplaces, you know, not just hospitality jobs, but corporate jobs,
Speaker 1: where people don't respect your boundaries. They ask you to
Speaker 1: work when you know you can't. They assign you things
Speaker 1: that you just don't have the skills or the capacity
Speaker 1: to do, and then they criticize you. That make you
Speaker 1: feel small. That is a very hard thing to go
Speaker 1: through and still maintain your sense of self esteem. You know,
Speaker 1: I've heard from a lot of people whose biggest complaint
Speaker 1: about their toxic workplace has been the unreasonable workload and
Speaker 1: the expectations that made them feel like they were on
Speaker 1: a constant treadmill, and this treadmill was getting faster and faster.
Speaker 1: And I would categorize a boss that does this as
Speaker 1: using fear based leadership, pushing people to their limits out
Speaker 1: of a fear of repercussion, you know, getting fired, being humiliated,
Speaker 1: being criticized, rather than giving people space to expand, It's
Speaker 1: all about consequences rather than growth. That treadmill I'm speaking
Speaker 1: about that puts us into a hyper aroused and stressed
Speaker 1: elevated state because you are essentially running on cortisol and adrenaline.
Speaker 1: If you've ever wondered why after you go through a
Speaker 1: super stressful, busy period at work or at school, you
Speaker 1: immediately get sick. That is why your body requires mental
Speaker 1: and of course physical rest to switch off, to restore
Speaker 1: to pleated reserves, and more importantly, to calm down that
Speaker 1: stress response, because that stress response is incredibly harsh on
Speaker 1: our bodies. When we aren't given that chance, it weakens
Speaker 1: our immune system, It makes us worse at fighting illnesses,
Speaker 1: or more susceptible to certain diseases, certain sicknesses. So it's
Speaker 1: not just that this is having a mental consequence. You
Speaker 1: are going to also see a physical result of this
Speaker 1: bad environment. Then there is you know, overworking as well,
Speaker 1: which feels very similar to the above. Right, this culture
Speaker 1: of like you need to give this company every thing
Speaker 1: you need to be on one hundred percent of the time,
Speaker 1: there tends to be a belief that overworking and to
Speaker 1: an extent, burnout is an occupational hazard of some jobs,
Speaker 1: the same way that you know you're more likely to
Speaker 1: be injured working in a mine or doing something dangerous
Speaker 1: like working on an oil rig, and you accept that
Speaker 1: that is part of the role. If you're a doctor,
Speaker 1: a lawyer, a nurse, over time and burnout just you know,
Speaker 1: you just have to accept that. But that is also
Speaker 1: becoming the norm for almost all jobs these days. And
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about staying thirty minutes to finish off
Speaker 1: your emails, but late nights, working weekends, without being compensated,
Speaker 1: without getting support. The biggest contributor to burnout. According to
Speaker 1: the University of California, Berkeley, the biggest number one thing
Speaker 1: is overworking an excessive workload, and they have even made
Speaker 1: the claim, which I think think we should take with
Speaker 1: a grain of salt, but the University of California probably
Speaker 1: knows more than me. They've made the claim that burnout
Speaker 1: is contributing to the deaths of millions of people each
Speaker 1: year because of its all round negative impact on your health.
Speaker 1: You know, I want to say this not to scare you,
Speaker 1: but to remind you that you are not being dramatic
Speaker 1: if you find yourself completely depleted by the expectation to
Speaker 1: work long hours and the inability to say no because
Speaker 1: you are a junior, because this is how it's always
Speaker 1: been done. I'm going to take a short break, but
Speaker 1: when we return, I want to talk about some of
Speaker 1: the further consequences of that for all elements of our health.
Speaker 1: Whether it's excessive workload, bullying, intimidation, micromanagement, poor communication, a
Speaker 1: bad culture. All forms of toxic workplaces leave their mark,
Speaker 1: and you don't even have to have been there for
Speaker 1: a long time for that to be the case. According
Speaker 1: to the American Psychological Association, when we encounter these environments.
Speaker 1: It can lead employees that means you and I to
Speaker 1: become and this is their words, sick, scared, and to
Speaker 1: look for ways to quit. They also consistently report about
Speaker 1: sixty five percent of the people they spoke to that
Speaker 1: their mental wellbeing declines during these periods. Toxic workplaces take excitement,
Speaker 1: they take our energy, they take our willingness and our
Speaker 1: desire to do well, and they turn it interfere, and
Speaker 1: they turn it interfere because we need money and we
Speaker 1: need a job to survive. So when that is not
Speaker 1: going well, every other element of our lives feels threatened.
Speaker 1: You know, we've already spoken about that cost when it
Speaker 1: comes to burnout. But burnout is more than just one feeling.
Speaker 1: It actually develops in twelve stages. So the term burnout
Speaker 1: was created, discovered, I don't know, initiated, whatever you want
Speaker 1: to say, by the psychologist Herbert Freudenberg. And in his
Speaker 1: initial theory back in the day, he suggests that we
Speaker 1: often don't even notice burnout until we get to the
Speaker 1: final few stages, so stage ten, eleven, and twelve, and
Speaker 1: this is the time when we really feel it. We
Speaker 1: are sick, we are tired, all the time, we are
Speaker 1: confused and able to regulate our anxiety. It's a downward
Speaker 1: spiral that we're heading, but it actually begins a lot earlier,
Speaker 1: and it begins with things that we would see as positive, right,
Speaker 1: excessive ambition, trying to meet the expectations or fit into
Speaker 1: the environment. It's like a toxic relationship where we think
Speaker 1: we are in the wrong and we try to fix
Speaker 1: ourselves by working harder, only to eventually realize, you know,
Speaker 1: it was actually never me, it was always this other party.
Speaker 1: The early stages of burnout also include trying to put
Speaker 1: more on your plate, neglecting basic needs or chores, just
Speaker 1: saying I'm too busy for that. Feeling like you don't
Speaker 1: have enough time in your day, withdrawing from friends, finding
Speaker 1: that there is conflict in other areas of your life
Speaker 1: as well, with your partner, with your roommates, with your friends.
Speaker 1: And then the emptiness sets in. And it may only
Speaker 1: be when we are in this final state and we're
Speaker 1: looking back at the last few weeks, we're looking back
Speaker 1: at the last months, and we think, oh, oh, my goodness,
Speaker 1: this has been coming for a long time. You know.
Speaker 1: Hindsight is often the first time that we notice this pattern,
Speaker 1: and this is what can lead us to the dark,
Speaker 1: dark path of chronic burnout or a burnout cycle. So
Speaker 1: if you are someone who finds that they get burnt
Speaker 1: out like every three to four months, maybe like clockwork,
Speaker 1: but you know, then you feel a little bit better
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks, so you put everything back on
Speaker 1: your plate and you try to adapt, and then you
Speaker 1: know you feel burnt out again. You're not going through
Speaker 1: a different cycle, different stages of burnout because you're actually
Speaker 1: not even recovering. You've probably never even escaped the burnout
Speaker 1: to begin with. You've just gone back to an earlier stage.
Speaker 1: You are in the burnout cycle, and that cycle involves
Speaker 1: momentary recovery met by escalation. People in overwhelming or toxic
Speaker 1: workplaces are more likely to report this kind of experience,
Speaker 1: and sometimes it can last years. Toxic workplaces can even
Speaker 1: at times create PTSD or lasting trauma after you have
Speaker 1: left that environment. A friend of my dad's actually had
Speaker 1: such a traumatic experience at a job. You know, it
Speaker 1: was like ten years ago and he has never been
Speaker 1: able to recover from that. On a smaller scale, I
Speaker 1: had a friend who just recently got out of this
Speaker 1: terrible job, maybe like six months ago, and oh my goodness,
Speaker 1: I just hated her boss. Never met her boss, hated him.
Speaker 1: He would single her out, he had such he was
Speaker 1: just mean. He just obviously did not like her for
Speaker 1: whatever reason, and he made it very known. And then
Speaker 1: one day he just made her redundant out of the blue.
Speaker 1: After that, of course, you know, it really echoes that
Speaker 1: story we said before. She had to find a new job,
Speaker 1: and it was so interesting yet quite sad to watch her,
Speaker 1: you know, apply for jobs and to watch her to
Speaker 1: struggle and struggle and struggle and feel like she wasn't qualified,
Speaker 1: she wasn't confident enough, because her expectations for herself had
Speaker 1: sunk to his level and left a mark on her
Speaker 1: self worth. And you know, the more we care about
Speaker 1: someone's opinion because they are in a position of authority
Speaker 1: or we rely on their good opinion for our future,
Speaker 1: the more weight we put on it, the more a
Speaker 1: negative opinion can really scar us. And it didn't matter
Speaker 1: what we said, her friends said, you know, it didn't
Speaker 1: matter that we thought she was talented, skillful, charismatic. Her
Speaker 1: inner critic had taken her boss's words and spoken them
Speaker 1: back to her in her own voice, So what do
Speaker 1: we do to heal from these situations? You know, unless
Speaker 1: you are suddenly a millionaire, which congratulations, Please let me know.
Speaker 1: If that's the case, congrats, But unless that is your case,
Speaker 1: we need to work. You can't always just quit a
Speaker 1: secure job, even if you want to, even if you're
Speaker 1: really struggling. That's why toxic workplaces have their own place
Speaker 1: in hell. I also think that, you know, having a
Speaker 1: job is also an important part of our purpose, our identity.
Speaker 1: So you want to have a positive environment that you
Speaker 1: can thrive in, that you can achieve your goals in.
Speaker 1: So what do we do to kind of cope in
Speaker 1: a situation where that's not the case, and how do
Speaker 1: we cope afterwards. One of the best things that a
Speaker 1: friend of mine has ever said to me ever, is
Speaker 1: if someone treats you badly, they are not going to
Speaker 1: treat you any better the harder you work. And that
Speaker 1: left me gobsmacked because I think about my toxic job jobs.
Speaker 1: I only spoke about one, but there have been others,
Speaker 1: and I think about them, and I think about how
Speaker 1: the whole time I was the one pushing myself to
Speaker 1: fit in, I was working so hard thinking that I
Speaker 1: was the problem, when actually it was the environment that
Speaker 1: was the common denominator amongst not just my experience, but
Speaker 1: many others in many ways. And I've said it before,
Speaker 1: but a toxic workplace, in a toxic relationship like share
Speaker 1: a lot of traits. They make you doubt your own
Speaker 1: self worth, They make you feel like you are the problem.
Speaker 1: They make it hard to leave, They blame you, they
Speaker 1: tear you down. They know they are of course different
Speaker 1: as well. But I think when you consider it in
Speaker 1: this way, you begin to realize that you deserve more.
Speaker 1: Your job is actually just as important in some ways
Speaker 1: as the relationship that you choose, And the same way
Speaker 1: that you deserve the absolute best from a partner from
Speaker 1: a friend, you deserve the absolute best from a workplace.
Speaker 1: I think with toxic jobs, this is not a matter
Speaker 1: of trying to convince someone to be nicer, to fix
Speaker 1: the attitude problem for you. It's not a matter of
Speaker 1: trying to convince a workplace to overhaul their culture. It
Speaker 1: is a situation where you know they've probably been asked
Speaker 1: before and they wouldn't do it. You are not the
Speaker 1: first person to suffer, and not the first person with
Speaker 1: these problems. So whilst you are in it, your main
Speaker 1: goal is to and I know it might sound quite selfish,
Speaker 1: but it's to seriously just get through it. Put your
Speaker 1: head down and get through it, because you cannot bear
Speaker 1: the burden of a disorganized and toxic environment. My first
Speaker 1: big tip is to take control of what you can
Speaker 1: and find value outside of work. Make it a mission
Speaker 1: to have fun, to do things you enjoy, to put
Speaker 1: joy and excitement back into the hours that you're not
Speaker 1: in the workplace. There is definitely an inclination when we're
Speaker 1: going through this experience to come home and just be first.
Speaker 1: So you're exhausted, you're emotionally burnt out, and obviously the
Speaker 1: reaction to that is just a rest and is to lifestill,
Speaker 1: and is to just enter a catatonic state. I get
Speaker 1: that feeling, and I get that urge. I want you
Speaker 1: to treat that as the first option and then to
Speaker 1: explore the second option. And the second option is to,
Speaker 1: almost in defiance, say I'm not going to let this
Speaker 1: shitty job ruin my life. I'm not going to let
Speaker 1: this shitty job mean that I cannot experience great beauty
Speaker 1: and excitement and fun and passion and all the best
Speaker 1: feelings beyond this environment. So you cannot control how a
Speaker 1: boss treats you, you cannot control how a workplace values you.
Speaker 1: But you can control, you know, what you do before
Speaker 1: you go to bed. You can control the hours before
Speaker 1: you go to work, where you drive to the beach,
Speaker 1: you watch the sunrise, you get coffee early morning, coffee
Speaker 1: with a friend, you go to the movies after work
Speaker 1: instead of just you know, coming home and sitting back
Speaker 1: on the couch. Fill those hours that you can control
Speaker 1: with the life. I also would really suggest to limit
Speaker 1: your emotional investment in your job by doing something that
Speaker 1: we call acting your wage. Obviously it's a play on words.
Speaker 1: Act your age, act your wage. You know, if someone
Speaker 1: is as much as you can, if someone is not
Speaker 1: paying you for the extra effort, they're not appreciating you
Speaker 1: for the extra effort, don't do it. Do not do it.
Speaker 1: You might think that this is counterintuitive. You might be like,
Speaker 1: you know, I want to get it head in my career.
Speaker 1: I understand that, but is this the place in which
Speaker 1: your effort is going to be most recognized or could
Speaker 1: you take that effort and that time that you're spent
Speaker 1: trying to impress your terrible boss, trying to impress your
Speaker 1: terrible coworkers, and could you put it towards having an
Speaker 1: extra hour to apply for new jobs, having an extra
Speaker 1: hour to practice self care, having an extra hour to
Speaker 1: call a friend or to call your mum, instead of
Speaker 1: feeling like your life is just this job. It's hard
Speaker 1: to detach when you're in it, but I want you
Speaker 1: to really be reminded that your job does not care
Speaker 1: about you all that much. There are certain people within
Speaker 1: an organization or within your workplace that might care about you,
Speaker 1: but as a whole, it's a company. It's an organization.
Speaker 1: It's something that has a mission that isn't to do
Speaker 1: with you. And I know it sounds quite pessimistic, but
Speaker 1: if you were to leave tomorrow, they would find a placement.
Speaker 1: And so do not treat this like a family. Do
Speaker 1: not treat it like it's this giving friendship and let
Speaker 1: them guilt you into staying. This is a job. You're
Speaker 1: entitled to act your wage, and oh my goodness, please
Speaker 1: take a sick day when you can. This was something
Speaker 1: that I wish wish I had done when I was
Speaker 1: working full time at my corporate job. I had so
Speaker 1: much sickly by the time I left. And you've got
Speaker 1: to remember that sickly you have been, that you've paid
Speaker 1: for those days, right, that is money that they have
Speaker 1: not paid you, which they have kept for themselves. And
Speaker 1: if you leave, and maybe this is just in Australia,
Speaker 1: but if you leave, they get to keep the money
Speaker 1: that they have deducted from your paycheck for the days
Speaker 1: that you need to call and sick. So please take
Speaker 1: a sick day. This is just a job. I promise
Speaker 1: you that in ten years time or after you quit.
Speaker 1: You one of the big things is one of my
Speaker 1: big regrets is oh my god, I wish I'd actually
Speaker 1: taken a mental health day when I need it. I
Speaker 1: wish that I had taken care of my emotions. I
Speaker 1: also think that if you are in a unique environment
Speaker 1: in which the main problem is criticism, the main problem
Speaker 1: is being shut down, not being appreciated, it's not being congratulated,
Speaker 1: or being quite bored, not feeling challenged, try and provide
Speaker 1: some self congratulation so you know, self reinforcement is one
Speaker 1: of the most valuable psychological tools I've ever learned. Self approval,
Speaker 1: you know, actually congratulating yourself, celebrating yourself, especially when you're
Speaker 1: in an environment where you're like, I don't think that these
Speaker 1: people are going to do that for me. Some of
Speaker 1: the reasons that one of the big reasons that we
Speaker 1: become quite burdened by a negative work environment is we
Speaker 1: begin to expect that our validation needs to come from
Speaker 1: our employer, because our career is a core piller of
Speaker 1: our identity, and we don't really know where to search
Speaker 1: without validation beyond the workplace. And I'm gonna make a
Speaker 1: caveat here. This is a especially the case if you
Speaker 1: were quite a high achiever. You were very you know,
Speaker 1: a good student, you were an a student, you were
Speaker 1: you know, just excelling, You're a gifted child. You were
Speaker 1: used to praise. You like praise. You like to be congratulated,
Speaker 1: and when you don't have that, it feels like you're
Speaker 1: quite worthless. So try and get into the habit of
Speaker 1: being like, I'm really proud that I got all of
Speaker 1: that done today. I'm really proud that I tried really hard.
Speaker 1: I'm really proud of the extra effort that I put
Speaker 1: in to this thing. For me, I'm really proud of
Speaker 1: my work. You don't need to be reliant on someone
Speaker 1: else to tell you that you've done a good job
Speaker 1: if you know you've done a good job. Now. This
Speaker 1: final tip actually came from my friend who I was
Speaker 1: speaking about, who was made redundant a few months back,
Speaker 1: and while she was in that terrible, terrible job, she said,
Speaker 1: the one really amazing thing that worked for her was
Speaker 1: having an exit strategy. So the exit strategy is basically
Speaker 1: a timeline that you have for when you want to quit.
Speaker 1: It's quite unreasonable to be in a toxic workplace for
Speaker 1: a lot of us and to be like, I'm just
Speaker 1: going to quit tomorrow because we need money to survive,
Speaker 1: and that's I think what contributes to us feeling quite
Speaker 1: trapped is a sense of almost dependency on this thing
Speaker 1: that we hate. We are dependent on this terrible boss,
Speaker 1: this terrible job. You need to start looking to the
Speaker 1: future and creating that timeline for leaving. So a timeline
Speaker 1: for leaving is not just like an immediate goal of
Speaker 1: getting a new job. It's a structured way of thinking
Speaker 1: about how you're going to get there and how you
Speaker 1: break it down. If you've listened to our episode on
Speaker 1: five ways to reinvent yourself in your twenties, you have
Speaker 1: heard the strategy. The way to do it is to
Speaker 1: break your goals down, your goal being to leave into
Speaker 1: one day, one week, one month, six month goals. So
Speaker 1: the six month goal is to be out of there,
Speaker 1: but the one month goal is to have a few
Speaker 1: job interviews lined up. The one week goal is to
Speaker 1: apply for five different jobs a week, and our day
Speaker 1: goal is to be filling out your resume, to be
Speaker 1: thinking about who could be your references, to be taking
Speaker 1: five minutes to just search through jobs and bookmarking them
Speaker 1: for later. You need to have a sense of Okay,
Speaker 1: there is an end insight. I am going to actively
Speaker 1: start working towards leaving this workplace, and you'll find that
Speaker 1: suddenly it becomes a lot easier to detach. You can
Speaker 1: start like to give less fucks. Sorry to swear, but seriously,
Speaker 1: it's when you start to just be like, this actually
Speaker 1: is a job because I can see what else is
Speaker 1: out there and you're not in this toxic relationship, lind
Speaker 1: to what is better? All right, We're going to take
Speaker 1: another short break, but when we come back and want
Speaker 1: to talk about the strategies that you can use in
Speaker 1: the aftermath, even after we leave a toxic, awful, terrible environment.
Speaker 1: Sometimes the emotional impact lingers. So we're going to talk
Speaker 1: about how to heal from that and much much more
Speaker 1: after this short break. Recovering from any situation that has
Speaker 1: perhaps brought you trauma, emotional turmoil, emotional conflict really involves
Speaker 1: finding closure. As humans, we like things to have a
Speaker 1: neat storybook ending. We like to be able to put
Speaker 1: a memory away and say, that makes sense, that makes
Speaker 1: sense that I had to go through that, That makes
Speaker 1: sense as to why that happened, and I can move
Speaker 1: on from that now. When we go through things that
Speaker 1: are very much out of our control or quite turbulent
Speaker 1: and hurtful, it's very hard to find that conclusion. It's
Speaker 1: very hard to also find a sense of meaning often
Speaker 1: because there isn't any There is no meaning behind you
Speaker 1: having to experience a toxic workplace like it's just an
Speaker 1: unnecessary trauma. So instead you need to find that closure
Speaker 1: for yourself. You can't necessarily go to your bad boss
Speaker 1: or your bad colleague and say why did you treat
Speaker 1: me that way? Why were you so cruel to me?
Speaker 1: You can't go and talk to this of your company
Speaker 1: and say why did you pay me so little, Why
Speaker 1: did you disregard my needs? Instead? You need to find
Speaker 1: that cognitive closure for yourself that's going to allow you
Speaker 1: to transition away from what's finished to something new. The
Speaker 1: easiest way to do that is to acknowledge the impact.
Speaker 1: Is to acknowledge, Yeah, I did go through that, and
Speaker 1: that was really really difficult. And even if this is
Speaker 1: a disenfranchised trauma, so kind of a trauma that other
Speaker 1: people don't understand, even if it's not on people's list
Speaker 1: of what's serious, to me, it was and it impacted me,
Speaker 1: and it was really hard, And I'm allowed to feel
Speaker 1: sorry for myself. I'm allowed to feel sad about it,
Speaker 1: and then I need to move on. Another thing that's
Speaker 1: important here is sometimes when we have been in that environment,
Speaker 1: we have almost been gaslet into feeling like it's normal.
Speaker 1: We've been gaslet into feeling like we were the problem.
Speaker 1: As I said before, we've been gaslet into being like, no,
Speaker 1: I'm just going to shake this off. This was just
Speaker 1: a bit over dramatic on my behalf. So you need
Speaker 1: to find evidence and collect evidence from other people, people
Speaker 1: you trust that you can believe your experience. So talk
Speaker 1: to your friends, talk to your family who spoke to
Speaker 1: you through that time and say, you know, hey, I'm
Speaker 1: kind of doubting whether it was really that bad, And
Speaker 1: they will look you in the eye and say, no,
Speaker 1: that was terrible. What you were experiencing was objectively awful.
Speaker 1: You had every right to leave. You had every right
Speaker 1: so walk away, because you know, again, sometimes we are
Speaker 1: in that environment and we almost become indoctrinated. I feel
Speaker 1: like there are quite a few companies that are quite
Speaker 1: cult like in this way. I think about BuzzFeed flash,
Speaker 1: you know, throwback from the past. But remember when BuzzFeed
Speaker 1: was like a huge thing, and then afterwards all these
Speaker 1: people came out and were like, you know, I thought
Speaker 1: it was the best job ever, but it was actually
Speaker 1: incredibly taxing and awful. Sometimes when you're in an environment,
Speaker 1: the only thing in the way to get through is
Speaker 1: to kind of put a positive spin on things and
Speaker 1: to glamorize. You know, if your brain and if you
Speaker 1: were fully conscious of how terrible the experience was, you
Speaker 1: would have wouldn't have been able to cope. So we
Speaker 1: put up walls, We compartmentalize to survive. So make sure
Speaker 1: that you understand that your reaction was valid. Your reaction
Speaker 1: was also completely appropriate by getting objective people in your
Speaker 1: life to confirm that for you moving forward. And I
Speaker 1: will caveat this by saying you it's not your fault
Speaker 1: that a workplace or a job was toxic. You did
Speaker 1: not deserve it. But try and be picky from now
Speaker 1: on if you can notice the warning signs of when
Speaker 1: a job might adopt a certain culture that is un friendly,
Speaker 1: the big warning signs, or when they are immediately like
Speaker 1: in a job application or even in an interview. M
Speaker 1: willing to compromise on anything. They're inflexible about salary, they're
Speaker 1: inflexible about hours, they're inflexible about working from home, when
Speaker 1: they call themselves a family, when honestly trust your intuition.
Speaker 1: When you walk into the building or you have the
Speaker 1: interview and they feel quite disinterested in you, or you
Speaker 1: feel like they can't you know, the people that are
Speaker 1: interviewing you themselves have only been there for a little while.
Speaker 1: That really indicates high turnover. Start to be picky with
Speaker 1: the job that you choose. And I know that this
Speaker 1: is a luxury if you can afford to take a
Speaker 1: little bit of time to really try and secure a
Speaker 1: job that you really really like through networking or through anything.
Speaker 1: I think it pays off in the long run. And
Speaker 1: it pays off because you know, you don't have to
Speaker 1: feel like you've been forced into another job that's the
Speaker 1: same experience, and that's the same vibe in the same environment,
Speaker 1: and then six months later you're back in the same spot.
Speaker 1: It's not always available to everyone, but I do think
Speaker 1: when we exit one job or one career or one environment,
Speaker 1: it is a really good opportunity to reflect on what
Speaker 1: we want from work and to really rethink our values
Speaker 1: when it comes to work, rethink the balance that we
Speaker 1: would like to strike, especially if you have a redundancy, right,
Speaker 1: that's a gift. So a few times in our lives
Speaker 1: and our working lives, do we have a period of
Speaker 1: months where we can actually just exist and not have
Speaker 1: to work and can travel or could you take a
Speaker 1: little bit more time, So embrace that luxury, embrace that
Speaker 1: experience and just take a rest. If you can take
Speaker 1: a rest, recover, talk to your friends, spend more time
Speaker 1: with yourself, building back up that identity that maybe you
Speaker 1: have lost throughout this experience. I think that that is
Speaker 1: all I have for you guys today. I think that
Speaker 1: there is all my best tips for handling a toxic workplace.
Speaker 1: I'm honestly quite sorry if you can relate to this.
Speaker 1: I know it is very, very difficult. But you're not
Speaker 1: being dramatic, You're not overreacting. I hope I don't need
Speaker 1: to say that anymore than I or an you have.
Speaker 1: But it is a really difficult thing to go through
Speaker 1: because work is such a foundational part of who we
Speaker 1: are in this day and age. So it's okay, take
Speaker 1: care of yourself. You will find a better job you feel,
Speaker 1: We'll find a better workplace, and this will pass. If
Speaker 1: you enjoyed this episode, make sure that you are following
Speaker 1: along for future episodes. We also have a bunch of
Speaker 1: episodes around like finding a job in your twenties, Career
Speaker 1: Anxiety in your twenties, how to find your calling. If
Speaker 1: like that's a follow up episode that might be helpful,
Speaker 1: make sure that you're following us on Instagram as well
Speaker 1: at that Psychology podcast and message if you have any feedback,
Speaker 1: If you have any thoughts on this episode, if you've
Speaker 1: had an experience yourself, we would love to hear from
Speaker 1: you and leave a review. If you feel cold to
Speaker 1: do so, make sure you're following along, leave a review.
Speaker 1: It makes our day. I really hope that this has
Speaker 1: helped you through what you're going through. Until next time,
Speaker 1: remember to be kind, be safe, be gentle to yourself,
Speaker 1: and we will talk very very soon