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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

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Speaker 3: By Kate.

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Speaker 1: Hey, Paul, how are you.

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Speaker 3: I'm doing good.

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Speaker 2: I know we've we've kind of gone on this topic before,

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Speaker 2: but I'm constantly in search for new music.

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Speaker 1: You are new old music or new new like new bands?

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Speaker 2: Well, it could be new bands, but I ran across

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Speaker 2: a couple of new bands. I think one I brought

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Speaker 2: up before the six Am Nikki six, who's the basis

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Speaker 2: of Miley Crue that I've been binging for the last

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Speaker 2: few months. But also another band that I thought was

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Speaker 2: brand new, The Shaman's Harvest, And then I was looking

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Speaker 2: at the Wikipedia page and they formed back in nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety six, and I was like, how did I miss them?

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Speaker 2: But loving their music so far? Have you had anything

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Speaker 2: new music come into your life now?

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Speaker 1: I pretty much only listened to old music, you know.

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Speaker 1: I drive before every time we tape, I drive before

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Speaker 1: and listen to music, and my children and I drive

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Speaker 1: all over the place, So I'm trying to think of

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Speaker 1: what we were just on. We did some share Share

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Speaker 1: was great, Tina Turner. I usually to get ready for

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Speaker 1: our show, I try to be a little meditative with

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Speaker 1: some Pointer sisters. My mom got me into I go

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Speaker 1: pretty for me, pretty old, so something perky but that

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Speaker 1: I really calmed down to because there's so much information

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Speaker 1: in my little head that I have to keep straight

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Speaker 1: to feed you this information that has a lot of detail.

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Speaker 1: And also these stories can be pretty stressful, so I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to keep everything straight. So I need a little

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Speaker 1: bit of peace, and driving around in my car is

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Speaker 1: the way to do it. So I tell my students

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Speaker 1: all the time, go take a bath. If you need

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Speaker 1: to think about a story idea, go drive in your car.

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Speaker 1: Just do whatever it takes to sort of unplug and

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Speaker 1: feed your soul and then come back and you can

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Speaker 1: accomplish whatever you need to accomplish.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you use whatever technique works for you. And I

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Speaker 2: think you know our listeners may not realize this, but

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Speaker 2: you don't work off of a script.

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Speaker 3: You've got notes.

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Speaker 1: I do.

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Speaker 2: And that's one of the things that has amazed me

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Speaker 2: about you is your ability to tell all these stories

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Speaker 2: just relying on the handwritten notes that you've got in

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Speaker 2: front of you. You definitely have a gift on that front.

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Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate that. I think that's from my TV

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Speaker 1: news days, where I had to be able to take

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Speaker 1: notes down and just make sure I can feed it

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Speaker 1: to the reporter kind of bullet points. What that means

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Speaker 1: is you just have to know the story pretty well.

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Speaker 1: I can't read a script. I'll have to read some

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Speaker 1: details so you'll hear me, like when you ask me

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Speaker 1: all those tricky questions about autopsies, you'll hear me say

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Speaker 1: five inch knife, twelve inches down, whatever it is, whatever

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Speaker 1: the details are, because I want to make sure I

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Speaker 1: get those right. But really, I just have to know

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Speaker 1: the narrative really well. And that's why I pick stories

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Speaker 1: that I enjoy, because I'm never going to present a

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Speaker 1: story to you that I don't think is relevant or

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Speaker 1: interesting or something that I really want to dig into.

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Speaker 1: We don't do stories just for the sake of quote

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Speaker 1: unquote good crime stories. I really feel like they're meaningful,

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Speaker 1: so I'm always excited to talk to you and get

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Speaker 1: your perspective on them.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and obviously you have a passion for these cases,

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Speaker 2: and I'm looking forward to hearing this one.

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Speaker 1: Well, this one comes from Canada, and I actually have

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Speaker 1: quite a few people who listen in Canada to templemore

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Speaker 1: Wicket and they email me ideas all the time from

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Speaker 1: their family, and so this actually came from a listener,

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Speaker 1: and it's been called The Babes in the Woods, and

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Speaker 1: that's what this story is about. So I think you're

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Speaker 1: going to find this interesting because I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: ruin it, but it does involve one of your favorite

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Speaker 1: forensic techniques and has I think a fairly satisfying ending.

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Speaker 1: So let me go ahead and set the scene. This

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Speaker 1: is a story that people in Canada may have heard

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Speaker 1: of before, because it's actually fairly famous. It's almost seventy

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Speaker 1: years old, and it's, as I said, called the Babe

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Speaker 1: in the Woods. Babes in the Woods, and it's a

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Speaker 1: case that has just plagued Canadian investigators for decades. It

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Speaker 1: is supposedly Vancouver's most infamous cold case from nineteen fifty three.

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Speaker 1: For me, nineteen fifty three is a pretty special time.

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Speaker 1: That's when my first book was set in London in

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty three, post war, and it's just a really

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Speaker 1: interesting time period. And in this case, we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about clothing, which I'll be interested to know how

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Speaker 1: much you know about children's clothing and what the trends were.

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Speaker 1: I knew nothing from the fifties, but apparently in this

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Speaker 1: case it's important to have some context and also about

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Speaker 1: the weapons. The evidence in this case really does date

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Speaker 1: the case because a lot of it comes from that

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Speaker 1: specific time period and it's significant. So this will be interesting.

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Speaker 1: Have you been to Vancouver before.

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Speaker 3: I was actually up there.

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Speaker 2: I gave it presentation to Canadian Law Enforcement on the

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Speaker 2: Golden State Killer case and it was hosted by Victoria PD,

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Speaker 2: so at least I have a sense of the environment.

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Speaker 2: You know, we drove around a little bit, but that

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Speaker 2: really is the only time I've been there.

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Speaker 1: Well, I love Canada and I think Vancouver is incredibly beautiful,

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Speaker 1: and my interpretation every time I've been there, it's been

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Speaker 1: rainy and cold, which is my favorite kind of weather,

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Speaker 1: frankly is rainy and cold. So this story takes place

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Speaker 1: in that environment, which is not good news forensically, but

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Speaker 1: we'll get into that in a second. So the story

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Speaker 1: takes place in a place called Stanley Park, which is

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Speaker 1: Vancouver's largest urban park at least at the time in

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty three, and it encompasses nearly one thousand acres

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Speaker 1: of West Coast rainforest in Vancouver. And I can already

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Speaker 1: tell what you're thinking about a wet environment. Wet environment

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Speaker 1: plus crime can equal stress for a forensic investigator.

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Speaker 2: Oh you know, the crime scenes I've gone out on

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Speaker 2: where it's raining.

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Speaker 3: Those are the worst because you just literally watch the

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Speaker 3: evidence wash away, whether it be a.

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Speaker 2: Tire impression, a shoe impression, trace evidence off the body,

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Speaker 2: trying to take notes in the rain on wet paper,

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Speaker 2: you know, you just you can't do it. You're photographs

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Speaker 2: with flash photography, the rain droplets reflect back into the.

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Speaker 3: Photograph, you know.

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Speaker 2: So it is just so hard to adequately recover the

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Speaker 2: evidence and adequately document the scene.

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Speaker 3: You lose so much. Rain is the worst.

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Speaker 1: I was just thinking about this. You can't think of

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Speaker 1: one instance where rain or a wet environment is helpful.

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Speaker 1: Maybe after a rain where there are foot impressions, or

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Speaker 1: is there any circumstance where you're thinking, hey, rain fantastic.

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Speaker 1: So that's a no.

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Speaker 2: When you get into when you start talking about yes,

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Speaker 2: you know you have soft ground that can record, you know,

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Speaker 2: your shoe impressions, tire impressions. You can start to reconstruct

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Speaker 2: movements you know of the offender or how the body

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Speaker 2: may have been disposed in the location. In that instance, yes,

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Speaker 2: in terms of a moist environment, but if it's actively raining,

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Speaker 2: that sucks. And then that moist environment has a tendency

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Speaker 2: as particularly you know with the biological evidence, because now

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Speaker 2: you've got the microbes like to grow and they start

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Speaker 2: to degrade your DNA you have the valuable DNA evidence. Really,

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Speaker 2: it's just not a good situation all around.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're going to need to talk about decomposition in

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Speaker 1: about forty five seconds, So we are in January of

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty three. There is a grounds keeping team in

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Speaker 1: the park that is clearing brush near this old fish hatchery,

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Speaker 1: and they make a grizzly discovery in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the park. Buried underneath several layers of leaves and pine

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Speaker 1: needles is a cheap fur coat which has been degraded

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Speaker 1: to a point where it's almost down to its lining.

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Speaker 1: And underneath the coat are the skeletons of two small people.

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Speaker 1: They don't know if it's children yet or what, but

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Speaker 1: two separate skeletons. And it's been raining, it's been cold,

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Speaker 1: there might have been snow, so already I think they're

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Speaker 1: at a disadvantage. I know the answer to this, but

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Speaker 1: how quickly does it take for a body to decompose?

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Speaker 1: Perhaps in cold environments, in wet environments like this, it

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Speaker 1: just varies.

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Speaker 3: I guess it does vary.

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Speaker 2: Cold will slow down the decompositional process. The first question

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Speaker 2: that I have are these fully skeletal remains? Was there

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Speaker 2: any tissue remaining at all?

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Speaker 1: Do you know it doesn't look like there's any tissue.

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Speaker 1: Full skeletal remains.

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Speaker 3: Okay, And they're not buried under the ground.

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Speaker 2: Of these skeletons are surface deposits, and they've just been

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Speaker 2: hidden with the leaves and brush right right.

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Speaker 1: And there's some clothing that's also present that I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you about. That gives us a few clues. But right

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Speaker 1: it sounds like skeletons, cheap fur coat on top, women's

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Speaker 1: fur coat on top, and then leaves and pine needles

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Speaker 1: from the trees and then naturally occurring dropping over the

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Speaker 1: past however many months.

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Speaker 2: Sure, so with the surface deposits, that would indicate that

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Speaker 2: the flies, the insects had access to the bodies order

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Speaker 2: to lay the eggs. And then now you get the

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Speaker 2: maggots that are going to start consuming the tissue. That's

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Speaker 2: where you can see a body skeletonized faster with a

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Speaker 2: surface deposit then a body that's been buried under the

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Speaker 2: ground and the insects don't have ready access to it.

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Speaker 3: They're clearing brush. You know.

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Speaker 2: Of course, now it's how long have these bodies been

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Speaker 2: out there, because just from them being completely skeletal tells me, oh,

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Speaker 2: they could have been out there for quite some time.

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Speaker 2: And the fur coat, if it's related, and was you know,

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Speaker 2: something that belonged to the victims and not something that

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Speaker 2: had been laying in the forest for a long time

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Speaker 2: that had just been put on top of the victims.

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Speaker 2: When you start to see clothing degrade like that, it's

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Speaker 2: been out there for a while, but you can't really

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Speaker 2: get a good window of time. There's no way to say, oh,

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Speaker 2: it's been a year, it's been three years, it's been

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Speaker 2: five years.

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Speaker 3: Now I start wanting to know.

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Speaker 2: Okay, tell me about the brush, tell me about the

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Speaker 2: plants the trees. Do we have roots growing up through

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Speaker 2: the skeleton? And do we have weeds growing up or

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Speaker 2: other plants? Is there something that I could take to

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Speaker 2: an expert and say, hey, this is what I've got.

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Speaker 2: How long would this occur with the types of plants

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Speaker 2: that are in the area.

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Speaker 1: Let me show you a shot of the area where

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Speaker 1: they were found. So this is the scene, and it

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Speaker 1: is a big old mess.

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Speaker 2: To me.

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Speaker 1: It looks very full of all kinds of brush underneath trees.

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Speaker 1: And I am not even remotely surprised after seeing the

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Speaker 1: scene that they had not been found for lord knows

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Speaker 1: how many years or months they had been there, right.

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Speaker 2: And then looking at this, of course you could see

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Speaker 2: where there's the base of trees, but I'm also seeing

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Speaker 2: a lot of ferns. Right, This really underscores Okay, this

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Speaker 2: is kind of more of a shaded, moist environment.

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Speaker 3: And then all the.

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Speaker 2: Leaves and brush in the area. And this is for

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Speaker 2: a body that is in this location. This is why

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Speaker 2: these bodies, even if there are just surface deposits, can

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Speaker 2: go years, if not decades, you know, right off of

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Speaker 2: a hiking trail and never be seen. But when a

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Speaker 2: body is seen, oftentimes what's seen first is the skull

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Speaker 2: because the skull stands out. The long bones blend in

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Speaker 2: with the branches, and the smaller bones with the brush

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Speaker 2: and everything else. But the skull looks like a boulder

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Speaker 2: that catches people's eyes. We have a saying when we're

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Speaker 2: dealing with skeletal remains, sometimes what you only find initially

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Speaker 2: is the skull and you go, well, heads roll, you know,

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Speaker 2: once they completely disarticulate the skull, if it's on let's

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Speaker 2: say a slope, possibly will roll down hill. And so

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Speaker 2: if you only find a skull, then you start looking

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Speaker 2: uphill wow, or you start looking at do I have

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Speaker 2: evidence of animal activity? Let's say you have a carnivorous

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Speaker 2: animal that has picked up parts of the body over

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Speaker 2: time and distributed the body within the area.

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Speaker 1: And what's interesting about that that is what else was

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Speaker 1: found there? And we talked about clothing. I mentioned clothing

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Speaker 1: and maybe that will help investigators figure out exactly how

248
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Speaker 1: long these skeletons have been there, because number one, they

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Speaker 1: can't tell how long they've been there, and number two,

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Speaker 1: they don't know if they are male or female. That's

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Speaker 1: how little information they have. But the clothing and the

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Speaker 1: shoes that they were wearing gives us at least a

253
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Speaker 1: little bit of a clue of the kind of environment

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Speaker 1: they came from. So they were wearing matching brown shoes

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Speaker 1: that had cheap rubber soles, as well as matching buckles

256
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Speaker 1: on their leather belts, and there were some other items

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Speaker 1: of matching clothing. So they are making the assumption that

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Speaker 1: maybe if these are children, which now I think they're

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Speaker 1: assuming they are, that they are siblings because you're buying

260
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Speaker 1: twice for kids who could be around the same age.

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Speaker 1: Is that a good assumption.

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Speaker 3: Well, that was the first thing that popped into my head.

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Speaker 2: But I'm also wondering about, you know, are they attending

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Speaker 2: let's say a private school, you know, where there was

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Speaker 2: a uniform, you know, would this type of clothing be

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Speaker 2: something that could be associated with They have a common

267
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Speaker 2: activity they do together, and they're unrelated. They're not siblings.

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Speaker 2: These are kids. Is that what we're saying right now, that's.

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Speaker 1: What they're suspecting because of just the size of the skeletons.

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Speaker 1: They're assuming. Now we should talk about that. How would

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Speaker 1: you decide based on the length of the bones? Is

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Speaker 1: that how you would decide whether or not these were

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Speaker 1: children or what would the alternative be?

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Speaker 2: You know, anthropologists, there's so many features on the skeleton

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Speaker 2: that an anthropologist can use to narrow the age range

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Speaker 2: of the person. Now, if they're children, you know, of

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Speaker 2: course you know the size, but also you know the

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Speaker 2: presence of the growth plates, dental analysis, you know what

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Speaker 2: teeth do they still have their milk teeth? As we

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Speaker 2: humans grow, the things that change with our skeleton, with

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Speaker 2: our dentician. That's what an anthropologist can look at from

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Speaker 2: these skeleton remains, and particularly with kids.

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Speaker 3: Really narrow down the age range.

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Speaker 2: It actually gets a little bit harder as we get older,

285
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Speaker 2: so they have to have a little bit broader age

286
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Speaker 2: range when you're dealing with older skeletons, But with the kids,

287
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Speaker 2: there's so many distinguishing features that change at certain points

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Speaker 2: during the growth process that an anthropologist can use.

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Speaker 1: Well, later on, we have a doctor who was not

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Speaker 1: a forensic pathologist who came out and concluded that the

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Speaker 1: bodies belonged to a boy and a girl. One was

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Speaker 1: between five and seven and the other one was between

293
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Speaker 1: seven and nine years old, and he suspected that they

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Speaker 1: had been there for around five years nineteen forty seven

295
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Speaker 1: and nineteen forty eight, based on the condition of the bones,

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Speaker 1: but also some of the clothing that I'll talk to

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Speaker 1: you about in a second, which is why I said

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Speaker 1: clothing can really date this crime scene. So being able

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Speaker 1: to know based on what we just talked about, the

300
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,800
Speaker 1: type of bone and link the bone and everything, this

301
00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,000
Speaker 1: seems reasonable that they could look at these skeletons and

302
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:05,720
Speaker 1: say around this time frame, you know, they went missing

303
00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,680
Speaker 1: and they were found, and they've been there since for

304
00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,720
Speaker 1: over the past five years. But the sex. Can you

305
00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,120
Speaker 1: really determine the sex based on skeletons?

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00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,160
Speaker 2: You know, right now, I'm racking my brain when we're

307
00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:21,840
Speaker 2: talking about prepubescent age children and all we've got are

308
00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:28,680
Speaker 2: skeletal remains. I'm not aware of a feature that would

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00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:33,400
Speaker 2: differentiate the gender. At that point. I'm wondering if this

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00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:37,120
Speaker 2: doctor is relying more on the clothing that was present

311
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Speaker 2: versus doing a true medical evaluation of the remains, I

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00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,720
Speaker 2: would need to talk to a forensic anthropologist to determine

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Speaker 2: whether or not they could differentiate genders in that age range.

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Speaker 2: My understanding is that generally after puberty and after the

315
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:59,320
Speaker 2: skeletal changes, most notably you know, the pelvis, but also

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00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:01,560
Speaker 2: they will differentiate.

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00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:02,440
Speaker 3: The bones either as being.

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00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:07,159
Speaker 2: Gracil versus robust, and we generally will see males have

319
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Speaker 2: more robust.

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Speaker 3: Features in their skeleton, but not necessarily.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's actually quite a spectrum that overlaps between

322
00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,600
Speaker 2: males and females in terms of those types of features.

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Speaker 2: The pelvis is usually the big indicator as to gender,

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Speaker 2: but that doesn't change until puberty.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and now you see the frustration of the investigators

326
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Speaker 1: at the time they can't determine. We have a doctor

327
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:31,760
Speaker 1: who says, based on some things that we're going to

328
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:33,480
Speaker 1: talk about now, we think that this is a boy

329
00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,320
Speaker 1: or girl. Here's the age range. They're trying to profile

330
00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:39,960
Speaker 1: these two kids to figure out where they might have

331
00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,399
Speaker 1: come from, and then they can go and canvas and

332
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Speaker 1: talk to witnesses who are around this public park over

333
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,000
Speaker 1: whatever time period and say we're missing a boy and

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00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,920
Speaker 1: a girl. Somebody has to know that there are two

335
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:54,800
Speaker 1: missing kids out there, right.

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Speaker 2: And right now we have these two skeletory remains found

337
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Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty three in Stanley Park.

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Speaker 3: You've talked about that.

339
00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:06,719
Speaker 2: The two remains share the same belt buckle and the

340
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:11,040
Speaker 2: same shoes, right, Okay, And there's other clothing items present

341
00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:12,160
Speaker 2: besides the fur coat.

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Speaker 1: Right. So this is where part of the dating came from,

343
00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:17,080
Speaker 1: how they were trying to figure out how long these

344
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,720
Speaker 1: kids have been there. One of the skeletons was wearing

345
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,840
Speaker 1: a Canadian made red tartan jacket and corduroy pants. I

346
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,320
Speaker 1: have a photo because I had no clue what any

347
00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,359
Speaker 1: of that meant. So this is the outfit, and this

348
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,640
Speaker 1: is a model wearing it. But this is the clothing

349
00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:33,520
Speaker 1: that was found by one of the kids. With one

350
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:37,560
Speaker 1: of the kids, it had been almost entirely deteriorated. You

351
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,560
Speaker 1: could see he's got these aviator glasses. This is very

352
00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,280
Speaker 1: popular in the twenties and thirties, kind of in the forties,

353
00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,960
Speaker 1: not at all in the fifties. So they're thinking this

354
00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,040
Speaker 1: is one of the things that helps date this from

355
00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,000
Speaker 1: late nineteen forties when they were deposited here.

356
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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know what I'm seeing is is on this mannequin.

357
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,480
Speaker 2: I see the aviator glasses that are up there on

358
00:18:58,520 --> 00:18:59,720
Speaker 2: the mannequin's forehead.

359
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,600
Speaker 3: And then you called it a Tartan coat.

360
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,000
Speaker 1: Yes, that's what this is, okay, And it's a very

361
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:06,919
Speaker 1: popular style.

362
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:12,359
Speaker 2: From my perspective, I'm very ignorant of fashion verbiage, but

363
00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,080
Speaker 2: you know that tartan coat looks to me to have

364
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:18,840
Speaker 2: like a pattern of like flannel. It's a little bit

365
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,119
Speaker 2: different than flannel, but it's kind of checkered. And the

366
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,120
Speaker 2: sleeves I'm seeing a solid sleeve but having white dots

367
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:30,760
Speaker 2: in an arrangement. It's visually very unique, if you will,

368
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,159
Speaker 2: in that it would be readily identifiable. It seems like

369
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,000
Speaker 2: if there had been reports of missing children in the

370
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,639
Speaker 2: past and they were last seen wearing this style Tartan coat,

371
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,080
Speaker 2: bells would be going off, going, oh.

372
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Speaker 3: Here are those kids?

373
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,240
Speaker 2: Is there anything within the clothing, you know, the brand

374
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,960
Speaker 2: something that you said was common in the twenties and thirties,

375
00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:56,200
Speaker 2: But is there anything to indicate that this particular garment

376
00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:58,760
Speaker 2: was made during a certain date range.

377
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:03,199
Speaker 1: No, this outfit it looks unique to me also, But

378
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:05,960
Speaker 1: I will say and doing research. I know that this

379
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,920
Speaker 1: outfit and saying there's a child missing wearing this outfit

380
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,439
Speaker 1: is a kin to saying there's a child missing wearing

381
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,920
Speaker 1: a jean jacket. It's that common. It's nothing special about

382
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,439
Speaker 1: this outfit in this time period. So it was not

383
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,240
Speaker 1: helpful at all to investigators because this story, once they

384
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:27,800
Speaker 1: discovered these skeletons, was printed everywhere and not a word

385
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,960
Speaker 1: was spoken by anybody about any family member missing children.

386
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,280
Speaker 1: One of the things I will say that's interesting about

387
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,160
Speaker 1: this is that they have these cheap shoes. One of

388
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,920
Speaker 1: the kids was wearing a pair of underwear that was

389
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,760
Speaker 1: almost completely deteriorated that had a safety pin on it

390
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,120
Speaker 1: that was something like three sizes too big we presume

391
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,000
Speaker 1: when this person was alive. So this is a profile

392
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:55,520
Speaker 1: that the investigators are building up someone who came from

393
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,640
Speaker 1: a family with very little money. They examined the jaws

394
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,159
Speaker 1: of both kids. Both kids had cavities in their teeth,

395
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,199
Speaker 1: and they knew they had a little bit of light

396
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,680
Speaker 1: brown hair that was out in the skulls, but other

397
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,240
Speaker 1: than that, they had no other clues. But they are

398
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,400
Speaker 1: looking at the clothes and the time period and trying

399
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,480
Speaker 1: to put it together that these are two kids that

400
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,160
Speaker 1: we presume our siblings, that are coming from a family

401
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,000
Speaker 1: with very little means, and hopefully that was going to

402
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,359
Speaker 1: lead them towards this discovery of whose family they came from.

403
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:23,920
Speaker 3: Right.

404
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:28,360
Speaker 2: You know, it is noteworthy that once this is receiving

405
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,919
Speaker 2: so much publicity, that nobody is coming forward and saying

406
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 2: our kids went missing, they were abducted. Obviously, you know,

407
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,040
Speaker 2: any family that cares about their kids and their kids

408
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:43,480
Speaker 2: are gone, you know, would come forward. So now it's

409
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:48,879
Speaker 2: looking at the possibility that maybe the parents killed these

410
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 2: two kids, or maybe the entire family, because we've had

411
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:57,000
Speaker 2: case examples of this where an entire family is abducted

412
00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,679
Speaker 2: and then you know, the kids are killed, parents are

413
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,640
Speaker 2: killed somewhere else, and there is nobody around to come forward,

414
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 2: at least within the immediate family. But I start going, huh,

415
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 2: you know, is this a parental situation where they've gotten

416
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 2: rid of their kids, maybe they couldn't financially support them anymore,

417
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 2: or something else is going on.

418
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the cause of death, because that

419
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 1: might give us some more clues. When the investigators looked

420
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 1: at the children's skulls, they noted that there were blows,

421
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 1: very lethal blows. They said that even though they were lethal,

422
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 1: they were lighter than they would have expected from an

423
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,160
Speaker 1: adult man. This is, I think, a very risky road

424
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,119
Speaker 1: to go down. So they were determined that they were

425
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 1: killed by a nearby lather's hatchet, which I had never

426
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 1: heard of before, and I tried to look it up

427
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,360
Speaker 1: and I just got confused. Did you figure out what

428
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 1: that kind of hatchet? What was its purpose?

429
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,160
Speaker 3: Yeah? This was the one homework assignment that you gave

430
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:55,120
Speaker 3: me for this episode.

431
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 1: I try to make things easy on him sometimes.

432
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 2: So now the lathers hatchet, this is a hatchet that

433
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 2: is used by roofers, and so on one end of

434
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,639
Speaker 2: the hatchet it's shaped like an axe.

435
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 3: It's kind of got a.

436
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,399
Speaker 2: Very sharp edge, and the other is more akin to

437
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 2: the working surface of a hammer. And roofers use this

438
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 2: to be able to use the sharp edge to cut

439
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 2: the shingles that they're going to be, you know, for

440
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 2: the size they need to put on the roof. And

441
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 2: then the other end is to drive the nails through

442
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 2: the shingles in order to actually build the roof put

443
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 2: the shingles on the roof. So it's got different shapes

444
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,159
Speaker 2: than your standard hatchet or hammer. It's like a weird

445
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:36,879
Speaker 2: combination of both.

446
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 1: This would cause some damage. I'm assuming if you wanted

447
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 1: to kill someone, this would crack a skull pretty easily.

448
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 2: This type of tool could devastate a human skull. This

449
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 2: could completely crush in the skull if the blows are

450
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 2: strong enough, and if there's repeated blows to the skull.

451
00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,040
Speaker 2: It has a lot of mass at one end. And

452
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 2: you know, and once the integrity of the skull is compromised,

453
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 2: you create fractures in it. Let's say from a first blow,

454
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 2: then subsequent blows, you just start seeing the skull get

455
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 2: crushed in.

456
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 3: So, yes, it would be a devastating weapon.

457
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,199
Speaker 1: This is what they think happened. The investigators examined the

458
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:39,880
Speaker 1: kid's skulls and there were very clearly gashes to their skulls.

459
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 1: It looked like from this particular hatchet. But the investigators

460
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 1: noted that the gashes were not as steep as they

461
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,479
Speaker 1: would have expected if the killer were a man. They

462
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,640
Speaker 1: were sort of light blows obviously because they were children.

463
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 1: They didn't have to be I suppose very heavy blows

464
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,400
Speaker 1: to kill them. But they were working under the asumption

465
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: that the killer was a woman and not a man.

466
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: Does that sound right? It's a little sexist, But does

467
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: that sound it seems a little dangerous to me to

468
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,919
Speaker 1: limit fifty percent of the population. Yeah, is that profiling

469
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:13,120
Speaker 1: gone amok?

470
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 2: That is where now trying to reconstruct aspects based on

471
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 2: these injuries is overreaching. This type of weapon, it would

472
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 2: not take a very strong person to inflict devastating wounds

473
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 2: to young children's skulls. I would say more, if this

474
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 2: is truly the murder weapon, is that whoever is yielding

475
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 2: it is striking the kids in the head. I of

476
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 2: course would want to see the photos. Are we talking about?

477
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 2: Is that the edge side? Is that the blunt side

478
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 2: of this lather's hatchet that was used. I've seen cases

479
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 2: where hammers are used and you get these literally disc

480
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 2: shaped punctures through the skull, and as long as that

481
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,919
Speaker 2: hammer doesn't hit in the same spot, you know, the

482
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 2: skull itself just and cave in on itself, as you

483
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 2: have repeated blows. But I would not draw any conclusion

484
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 2: as to the gender or the strength of the person

485
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 2: inflicting the blows. What we don't know is we're dealing

486
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 2: with skeletal remains. Just because they have blows to their

487
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 2: skull doesn't mean that they hadn't been strangled at some point,

488
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 2: So the distribution of the blows becomes significant. Is does

489
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 2: it appear that, you know, the offender, while inflicting the blows,

490
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 2: is able to strike in the multiple sides of the skull,

491
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 2: indicating that there's some movement, either by the victim or

492
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,199
Speaker 2: the offender is moving the victim. But right now, I

493
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 2: would just say if they're just because it's found nearby

494
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,360
Speaker 2: and these two kids were bludgeoned, I wouldn't say, well,

495
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 2: that is obviously the murder weapon.

496
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 3: I would want more.

497
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 2: Sometimes you'll get hair adhering to the surface of a

498
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 2: bludgeoning weapon, tissue, bone matter, blood spatter, you know something

499
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 2: else that would tie this as the murder weapon, or

500
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 2: unique features that are left in the bone that could

501
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 2: be physically matched to this type of lather's hatchet. It's

502
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 2: interesting it's a lather's hatchet that might be indicative of

503
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 2: possibly an occupation that the offender worked in, but not necessarily.

504
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 2: You know, I've got all sorts of tools because I'm

505
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 2: a DIY guy.

506
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 3: You know that you know a lot.

507
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 2: Of carpenters and other individuals in construction have just because

508
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 2: I have them doesn't mean I've worked in that occupation.

509
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 1: I think they were also thinking about the woman aspect

510
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 1: of this because of some of the other items that

511
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 1: were left behind. There was a female penny loafer that

512
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: was there, and of course we've talked about the fur coat.

513
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,239
Speaker 1: It was mass produced, a very cheap fur coat that

514
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,719
Speaker 1: was mass produced, as another clue that this would be

515
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 1: a woman who killed this boy and the squirrel. That

516
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: being said, this seems like if we look at this

517
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 1: crime scene, very haphazard. If this is the murder weapon,

518
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 1: this hatchet, it's just left there. These children are just

519
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 1: covered up by a fur coat and that's it. Yes,

520
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: it's an isolated spot, but this doesn't seem particularly well

521
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: covered up, except that no one found them for four

522
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: or five years. So what you know now, we don't

523
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: know if this is a male or female. We know

524
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: very little about the kids. We know very little about

525
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 1: the circumstances. Though, what can you surmise of what you

526
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: think is the most likely thing that happened so far?

527
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 2: Do you know, was that let's say, placed over the

528
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 2: children's upper bodies and head like the first thing placed

529
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 2: on them before they were hidden by the leaves and

530
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 2: branches and everything else.

531
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 1: I don't know where the coat was placed. I know

532
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: that the skeletons were completely covered by the coat. From

533
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: my understanding, they were very small.

534
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 3: I'm going to make an assumption.

535
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 2: Okay, if the coat had been laid over these two kids'

536
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 2: bodies to in essence kind of hide them, this is

537
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 2: where I start going, Okay, this might be an indication

538
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 2: that the offender is showing a level of remorse. I

539
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 2: have a case in which a body had been covered

540
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,719
Speaker 2: after she had been killed. It turns out it was

541
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 2: a friend that had killed her. This is a behavioral

542
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 2: thing that offenders who have an emotional connection to their

543
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 2: victims do, is they will cover the victims.

544
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 3: They don't want to see what they've done.

545
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 2: They're ashamed of what they've done, but they have an

546
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 2: emotional connection that they're trying to hide just from them

547
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 2: continuing to look at what they've done. So this fur

548
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: coat could have been placed by that offender. I wouldn't

549
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 2: go to the extent that it's necessarily their mother, or

550
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 2: even if it's a female, but it was potentially something

551
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 2: that was used to go, you know, almost in a

552
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 2: way I'm sorry and is remorseful, but then they move on. Now,

553
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 2: if we get into where the fur coat is a

554
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 2: woman's fur coat and it's actually the killers, that's interesting.

555
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: Well moving forward, this turns into very mysterious and a

556
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: very very cold case, and it's incredibly frustrating to investigators

557
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: because it has now been dubbed Babes in the woods.

558
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 1: There's a reward, of course, lots and lots of tips

559
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: come in. It goes nowhere the investigators, and I think

560
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: you're going to be very happy about this. Paul stored

561
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: a lot of evidence, including bone fragments and the jaws

562
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: and the teeth. That's excellent and that comes into play.

563
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 1: So we find out a whole lot more information, but

564
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: it's going to take an additional forty years. So this

565
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: is where we are right now, cold case, nothing's happening.

566
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: But there's a police sergeant in nineteen ninety six, so

567
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 1: now we're fast forwarding forty three years after they were

568
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: discovered and maybe fifty years after they actually went missing,

569
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 1: and he was assigned in Vancouver to this case, which

570
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: I think is just incredible. Surely there were lower hanging

571
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: fruit than the babes in the Wood case from nineteen

572
00:30:55,120 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 1: fifty three for this guy, Sergeant Brian Honeybourne, but he

573
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: was chosen to work on this case. He began his

574
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: investigation by examining the evidence with new technology, of course,

575
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: and he connected with a professor at the University of

576
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: British Columbia who was a guy named David Sweet. Doctor

577
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: David Sweet, And I'm saying this because I believe these

578
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: people who work on these cases all deserve an incredible

579
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: amount of recognition and this is where things get technical,

580
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: and you can help me with this. So doctor David

581
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: Sweet took some of the extracts from the remains, which

582
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: would be the skeleton, and he made several attempts to

583
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 1: extract a DNA sample from the remains. This was almost

584
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: impossible because the bones were very old and they had

585
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: been handled, of course by all sorts of people over

586
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: the past forty years, but he managed to get a

587
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: sample from the kid's teeth. Is that common for forensic genealogy?

588
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: Is that a good source teeth?

589
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 3: Teeth are awesome?

590
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: Okay, good to know.

591
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 2: It is not unusual for a body to decompose all

592
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: this bacteria inside the body.

593
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 3: The blood goes bad.

594
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 2: So when we would get blood samples from a decomposed body,

595
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 2: there's no DNA from the victim left. We'd often turn

596
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: to long bones or ribs and we could get DNA

597
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 2: from those. But a body can decompose to a point

598
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 2: to where the DNA is not good there, or if

599
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 2: the body has been burned or been floating in the river,

600
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 2: the decomposition just gets too far gone and the DNA,

601
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 2: at least with the technology from the era we're talking

602
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,479
Speaker 2: about nineteen ninety six nineteen ninety seven, you just couldn't

603
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 2: recover it. But the teeth, inside the teeth, you have

604
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 2: this dent in this area, high levels of cells. There's

605
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 2: a ton of nuclear DNA in there, and it's surrounded

606
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 2: by the hardest substance in the body. So when we

607
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 2: do have floaters, when we do have the crispy critters,

608
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 2: when we do have those decomp bodies, those corpses, and

609
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 2: there's no DNA anywhere else, the teeth often save our butts,

610
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 2: and so yes, it's absolutely a must is.

611
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 3: When you have bodies like that.

612
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 2: Pull them owlers, get those teeth out for DNA down

613
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 2: the road.

614
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: I had no idea, you know, I know not that

615
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,959
Speaker 1: much about DNA, and so that's really good information. And

616
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: thank goodness that this police sergeant, you know, was savvy

617
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: enough to think, well, this really could be a good clue.

618
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: So this is what they figured out. Now I'm going

619
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: to take you back in time to nineteen fifty three.

620
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: The Vancouver police are canvassing the whole area. The Vancouver

621
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: newspapers are printing stories saying that we are looking for

622
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: a woman who is with a boy and a girl

623
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: between five and seven and seven and nine, and she

624
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: goes into the park and maybe she looks distraught, she

625
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: comes out by herself. This is who you should be

626
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 1: on the lookout for. And this doctor, who was not

627
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 1: a pathologist, had reported and looked at the skeletons and

628
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 1: said boy and girl. This was not a boy and girl.

629
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: Two boys, and they were half brothers according to the

630
00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: DNA that was pulled by doctor Sweet based on these

631
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,479
Speaker 1: teeth in nineteen ninety six. So that is what we

632
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: know up till now, and there is of course a

633
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,399
Speaker 1: lot more information for you, But up until nineteen ninety six,

634
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 1: they discover two boys, not a girl and a boy,

635
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: half brothers, different fathers, same mother.

636
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I'm not surprised that they missed on the

637
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 2: gender identification. Yeah, ninety six ninety seven time frame, with

638
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 2: the state of the DNA technology. You know, at that

639
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 2: point we could sex the source of the DNA unequivocally.

640
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 2: You know, it was very straightforward. We're just looking at

641
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 2: a miligenin looking basically as there an X and Y chromosome.

642
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 2: If we see why, we know it's a biological male,

643
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:43,919
Speaker 2: and that's what he would have seen.

644
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: What's frustrating to this police sergeant into doctor Sweet is

645
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 1: that they realized this too, and they realized that the

646
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 1: entire investigation was misguided in nineteen fifty three, And of

647
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: course you're right. I mean, there's just very little they

648
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 1: could have done at that point. I don't know if

649
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 1: a pathologist a real patholo in nineteen fifty three, I

650
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: don't know what their education would have been at that point,

651
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 1: if this would have been helpful or not helpful. But regardless,

652
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: this changed a lot. It had gone cold, partially because

653
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 1: they ran out of leads for a missing boy and

654
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 1: a missing girl. So now I think Vancouver police are

655
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 1: kind of frustrated because they feel like forty something years

656
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,879
Speaker 1: later they could have been scouring for a different set

657
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 1: of siblings.

658
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, you still, whether you know back

659
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 2: in the day brother's sister or now in the mid nineties.

660
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 3: It's two half brothers.

661
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 2: You still have a family who has two missing young

662
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 2: kids and nobody has come forward.

663
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 3: That is still noteworthy.

664
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 1: Incredible, incredible, And the story gets even more incredible. This

665
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: police sergeant goes on a wild goose chase. Poor guy.

666
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: I mean, this is what you do as an investigator.

667
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 1: But boy, he stuck with it for years and years

668
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: and years. He went back and looked at all sorts

669
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 1: of police reports and interviews that were taken in the newspapers,

670
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 1: of all kinds of deranged women who went into the

671
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: park and came out with one shoe on because there

672
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 1: was a penny loaf for belonging to a woman left

673
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,800
Speaker 1: behind and distraught women. So he went on a wild

674
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 1: goose chase, much of what you and I do because

675
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: of the limitations of what he had until he finally

676
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 1: put it aside. He retired and one year he was

677
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 1: watching the news and there was a news report that

678
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: covered a United States based cold case that was solved

679
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: with enhanced forensic technology. It doesn't say what it was.

680
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,760
Speaker 1: I suspect it must have been the Golden State Killer case.

681
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 1: And he said, ding ding ding, I bet we can

682
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 1: do something. We still have samples. So what do you

683
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: think happened next? Knowing your background and how you can see,

684
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: I'm very excited about talking to you about this.

685
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 2: No, you know, this is where the genealogy tool that

686
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 2: we used in Golden State Killer is huge for this

687
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 2: type of case in particular, where you have recovered remains

688
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 2: obvious on the side, but you have no idea who

689
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 2: the remains are from. You can't even really start a

690
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:12,320
Speaker 2: true investigation until you identify the victims with this genealogy tool,

691
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 2: with that DNA that they recovered, it's a matter of

692
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 2: now going through the process and identifying those individuals in

693
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 2: the database that are related through DNA, and pretty soon

694
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 2: by utilizing that tool, you can drill down on the

695
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 2: branch of the family and potentially the parent of the kids,

696
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 2: whether it be on the paternal side with the two

697
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 2: different fathers, so you have two different paternal lineages you're

698
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 2: dealing with, or the maternal side. Now you are one

699
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 2: hundred steps closer to solving the case.

700
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 1: Well, this is a really incredible story. Let me tell you.

701
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 1: So in twenty twenty one, he approaches the Vancouver Police,

702
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,280
Speaker 1: maybe even a little bit earlier, and says, let's revisit

703
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: this case. Now you've got this thing called forensic genealogy

704
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: that I've think would be a great tool for us.

705
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: People are still concerned about what happened with these boys.

706
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,959
Speaker 1: So the Vancouver Police got in contact with the Massachusetts

707
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: Bay company called Redgrave Research Forensic Services. Do you know, then, Paul,

708
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 1: have you ever done anything with them? I've heard it.

709
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,720
Speaker 1: He disappeared. Oh you got some he left for a second.

710
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 1: When did you get No.

711
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 2: I got this plaque when I gave a presentation up

712
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 2: there in Vancouver.

713
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, they gave me this plaque.

714
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 2: And I was trying to think when we gave that presentation,

715
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 2: I wonder if this investigator was in the audience.

716
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 3: My role in that.

717
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 2: Is talking about the genealogy and how we did it

718
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 2: to solve the Golden State Killer. And I'm wondering if

719
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 2: him possibly attending that helped further his pursuit of this

720
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 2: genealogy tool.

721
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,439
Speaker 1: And that's why we do these stories because I don't

722
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 1: know who listens to it. Well, actually, I know a

723
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 1: lot of you, because I hear from a lot of

724
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 1: you who listen to this podcast, But we don't know

725
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 1: what professionals listen to the podcast who could use your

726
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 1: expertise and some of the things that you've mentioned to

727
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: their benefit. So that's definitely a possibility. He reached out

728
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 1: to the police, and the police reached out to Redgrave

729
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 1: Research Forensic Services to help with this investigation. Again, let's

730
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: go back to the bones were old and they had

731
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 1: been handled by a lot of people since the fifties.

732
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 1: But now we're in twenty twenty one when there are

733
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: even better tools than in nineteen ninety six, and it

734
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 1: took scientists multiple tries to extract a DNA sample and

735
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,399
Speaker 1: then of course use even more updated technology, and they

736
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: were successful. After they sequenced the DNA, they compared it

737
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,800
Speaker 1: in a database and they got a match. And here's

738
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 1: the best part to me. They got a match on

739
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 1: a family member who specifically uploaded their profile because they

740
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,399
Speaker 1: knew there were two little boys from their family who

741
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 1: went missing in the forties and they wanted to figure

742
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: out what happened to them. Wow, and they got a hit.

743
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 1: So here are their names, David and Derek. De Alton

744
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 1: and they went missing in the forties. So the police

745
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: actually got quite a bit right here. This is where

746
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 1: I think the police, with the exception of male versus female,

747
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: this is where the police actually did nail some things down.

748
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 1: So let me tell you about David and Derek. They

749
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 1: were half brothers. David was six and Derek was seven,

750
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 1: and of course shared a mother, just like the DNA

751
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 1: in ninety six told them. And we don't really know

752
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 1: what happened to precipitate all of this, but it sounds

753
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: like the relatives say that the boys were removed from

754
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 1: the residents by the ministry. They were never reported missing.

755
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: Something happened with the mom, and the ministry removed them,

756
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 1: so that I think would be the equivalent of state

757
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 1: like CPS would have removed them, okay, and then they disappeared.

758
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 1: So the suspect, now that the police have settled on,

759
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: is the mom. And the mom died in the nineteen nineties,

760
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 1: and it sounded like had a pretty troubled time in general.

761
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 1: But overall the case was difficult I think for relatives

762
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 1: because the boys just sort of disappeared and I don't

763
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 1: know if they went into foster care and then the

764
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 1: mother retrieved them, or perhaps there was a foster parent involved,

765
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: but the most likely suspect is a biological mother. So

766
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 1: police again, we're right. I mean, they assumed that this

767
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 1: was a woman who did it, and maybe for right

768
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 1: or wrong, but there were really no solid witnesses seeing

769
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: her go into the woods or come out of the woods.

770
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 1: But they were able to, thank goodness, successfully identify them

771
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 1: based on this relative. So again singing the praises of

772
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: forensic genealogy.

773
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 2: You know, it's a revolutionary tool, and it sounds like

774
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 2: it's given another family sort of an answer that you know,

775
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,240
Speaker 2: they now know what happened to their two little children

776
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 2: from the past. You know, I'm not sure how they

777
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 2: were related to the person who uploaded their DNA. I'm

778
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 2: kind of curious, you know. Of course, it sounds like

779
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:58,720
Speaker 2: there's been, if you want to call it, a family

780
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,439
Speaker 2: secret that's been taught about over the last couple generations.

781
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 2: Was it ever truly verified that these kids were removed

782
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 2: by the ministry? Or is mom just coming up with

783
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:10,800
Speaker 2: a reason why the two kids are gone?

784
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,240
Speaker 1: I agree she changed her surname after they disappeared, after

785
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 1: the family stopped seeing them, and also I don't know

786
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: if this says anything, but this is a family of

787
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 1: Russian immigrants, and I wonder if that maybe played into

788
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 1: why this had become such a sort of buried secret,

789
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,879
Speaker 1: because nineteen forties that's not that far back. I mean,

790
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 1: I knew of events that happened in my family from

791
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: the nineteen forties, certainly because of the war. So I'm

792
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: a little surprised. I'm not surprised when people have hidden

793
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 1: family secrets from the eighteen hundreds, of the seventeen hundreds.

794
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 1: I get a little more surprised in the nineteen hundreds, though,

795
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 1: because it's just not that far back, and it's not

796
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 1: that hard to find information through newspapers, dot com. So

797
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: I wonder if it was something culturally that stopped them

798
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 1: from talking about it, or you're right, maybe she just

799
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: lied and said that the mystery took them and she

800
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,479
Speaker 1: doesn't know where they are. Regardless, they ended up dead,

801
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:06,800
Speaker 1: and they finally were able to identify them, and you know, now, finally,

802
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 1: you know, seventy years later, they have names.

803
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 3: Do we know each.

804
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 2: Boy's father was either father in the boy's lives at all?

805
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like it, no, Okay, And again they

806
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: were never reported missing.

807
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, that's what.

808
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 2: I'm trying to figure out is if she has two

809
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 2: sons with two different fathers. So doesn't sound like the

810
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 2: paternal side of either sons wasn't actively involved in their life.

811
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 2: No paternal grandparents, you know, people that would be really

812
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 2: concerned if these two kids.

813
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 3: Had been removed, you know, by the ministry.

814
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 2: Correct right now, absent more information, I think mom just

815
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 2: made up they were taken by the ministry.

816
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was just an excuse to why she no

817
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:51,839
Speaker 3: longer has them.

818
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 2: Well, no, she went out into the forest and killed

819
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 2: her two kids and then just came back and told

820
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 2: the family while the ministry took him, I don't have

821
00:43:59,200 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 2: them anymore.

822
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: Well, and let's think about this time period. Nineteen forties

823
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 1: is when they went missing. So this is a time

824
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 1: period where a single woman who might have been troubled

825
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 1: were assuming to have killed two kids with a hatchet

826
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 1: or of some violent weapon. The family probably wasn't all

827
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:19,359
Speaker 1: that surprised, and maybe they thought that David and Derek

828
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,399
Speaker 1: were better off. Maybe they thought that they were better

829
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 1: off in the care of the ministry, which probably would

830
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: have ended up being foster care. So I don't know,

831
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 1: but regardless, this had been a family secret in this

832
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 1: was revealed specifically because of forensic genealogy, which I know

833
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 1: you and I wish we could have in every single

834
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:40,280
Speaker 1: one of these cases. But thank goodness, the Vancouver Police

835
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 1: Department in the nineteen fifties thought to preserve this And

836
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 1: yes it wasn't preserved particularly well, but it was there

837
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: and they were able to use it in twenty twenty

838
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: one to solve a case that was more than seventy

839
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: years old.

840
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is, in my experience unusual for many agencies

841
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 2: to have preserved evidence out of the nineteen fifties.

842
00:44:59,239 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 1: Incredible.

843
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 2: We typically start to see agencies, you know, get on

844
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 2: the ball with evidence in the late sixties, and even

845
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 2: then it's spotty. So, you know, kudos to the original

846
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 2: investigators and basically you know the property room out there

847
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 2: over the years to not have gotten rid of that

848
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 2: from such an old case.

849
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 1: And I want to give big props to this detective Honeybourne,

850
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: who had never given up on this case, who had

851
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: never given up on a case that was forty years

852
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 1: old when he got it, and to stay with it

853
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 1: and think about it. I know that as an investigator

854
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 1: there must be cases that just stick with you, and

855
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 1: I know the Golden State killer was one of them,

856
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: and I bet you have a much longer list than that.

857
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 1: So this is how things get solved. It was not

858
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 1: just uploading DNA. It was a detective who did not

859
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 1: need to do any of this because he had retired.

860
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:59,360
Speaker 1: He felt compelled because he had humanized these two kids

861
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 1: and wanted to justice for them. And I just thought

862
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: that it was amazing. There's no people knocking on this

863
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 1: guy's door saying you've got to get this solved. There's

864
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:10,359
Speaker 1: no family members, none of that. So I couldn't be

865
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:14,720
Speaker 1: any more proud of this man in the Vancouver Police Department.

866
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 1: I think it's amazing.

867
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,839
Speaker 2: You know, these cases do become personal, even if there

868
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,360
Speaker 2: is no family that's calling you. It's looking at the

869
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 2: photos of these two kids and what happened to them,

870
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,840
Speaker 2: and the fact that he stayed on it and recognized

871
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 2: that the new technology could be used in this case.

872
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's just persistence and it's constantly thinking what can

873
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,879
Speaker 2: I do different in order to get this case over

874
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,319
Speaker 2: the hump, and he did an amazing job on that.

875
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 1: Well, this is certainly not a happy ending, but it's

876
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: a satisfying ending to know that there are two kids

877
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 1: we know very little about who had great lives ahead

878
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 1: of them, and now at least finally we know who

879
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: they are. I always learned something from you. I did

880
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 1: not know that teeth would be an excellent source of DNA.

881
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 1: I had suspected it would be hard to put a

882
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:10,359
Speaker 1: sex on skeletons that were prepubescent, but my suspicions were

883
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 1: confirmed by you. So yet again I've learned something and

884
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 1: I'm very happy about that, because, boy, this case felt

885
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:18,319
Speaker 1: very important to me.

886
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 2: It even shows I mean, here you have a family

887
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 2: member who uploaded their DNA specifically because they had two

888
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,439
Speaker 2: missing boys in their past, and now the family got

889
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 2: an answer.

890
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:29,439
Speaker 3: Yep.

891
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 2: That's what we in law enforcement can do, is we

892
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 2: can work these cases to get the family an answer.

893
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 2: And again, kudos to the sergeant who did that for

894
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 2: that family.

895
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 1: Well, here's to hoping you and I can get answers

896
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,320
Speaker 1: for our episode next week, which I think you'll find

897
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 1: very very compelling.

898
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 3: All right, I'm looking forward to it.

899
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 1: As always, this has been an exactly right production.

900
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot

901
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones sources.

902
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

903
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

904
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

905
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

906
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

907
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:21,360
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

908
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

909
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:26,240
Speaker 1: Baried Bones pod.

910
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,240
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

911
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:31,279
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

912
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

913
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's Cold Cases,

914
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 1: is also available now