1
00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,840
Speaker 1: Welcome to Unaddiction the Podcast. My name is doctor Zinga Harrison.

2
00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,680
Speaker 1: I'm a Board certified psychiatrist with a specialty in addiction

3
00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:15,520
Speaker 1: medicine and co founder and chief medical officer of Eleanor Health.

4
00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,360
Speaker 1: On this podcast, we explore the paths that can lead

5
00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,880
Speaker 1: to addiction and the infinite paths that can lead to recovery.

6
00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,280
Speaker 1: Our guests are sharing their own experiences, the tools that

7
00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,280
Speaker 1: have helped them along the way, and the formulas that

8
00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,080
Speaker 1: allow them to thrive in recovery one day at a time.

9
00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,560
Speaker 1: Laura Willoughby is the founder of Club Soda, a social

10
00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,920
Speaker 1: impact organization that helps people drink more mindfully and live well.

11
00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,920
Speaker 1: Club Soda promotes the availability of low and no alcohol drinks.

12
00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,240
Speaker 1: They offer courses and workshops that support people to cut down,

13
00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:58,680
Speaker 1: take breaks from drinking, or stop for good, and create

14
00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:03,080
Speaker 1: connections through online and real world events. Laura was inspired

15
00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,920
Speaker 1: to found Club Soda after attending a workshop about alcohol

16
00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:11,640
Speaker 1: cessation that left her frustrated and angry at the lack

17
00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,920
Speaker 1: of help available outside of the medical profession. This was

18
00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:20,839
Speaker 1: such an incredible conversation about the cultural revolution that Laura

19
00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,160
Speaker 1: really is a founder of in the UK, which I'm

20
00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:26,520
Speaker 1: thrilled to say is making its way to the US.

21
00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,600
Speaker 1: So let's jump in and learn about it. Thank you

22
00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:33,920
Speaker 1: so much. So welcome Laura to the Unaddictioned podcast.

23
00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,520
Speaker 2: So nice to meet you and lovely to meet you too.

24
00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:37,480
Speaker 2: It's really exciting.

25
00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,000
Speaker 1: So I'm first of all going to start and say, like,

26
00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:48,440
Speaker 1: I'm a super fan of LO and no alcohol.

27
00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,200
Speaker 2: Oh, it's such a new thing, so not everybody is.

28
00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:54,600
Speaker 2: So that's really interesting. We can dig into that.

29
00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll get into it. So I'll tell you about

30
00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,840
Speaker 1: an addiction podcast. So I'm in zinga psychiatrist and addiction

31
00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,320
Speaker 1: medicine doctor here in the United States, and I recently,

32
00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,360
Speaker 1: which is crazy, five months ago now have my first

33
00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,520
Speaker 1: book come out and it's called un addiction, which is

34
00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:12,760
Speaker 1: a word that we made up.

35
00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:16,160
Speaker 2: I'm more for words that you make up.

36
00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like you know, there's not a word that gets

37
00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:21,919
Speaker 1: across that you need to get across, so we made

38
00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,000
Speaker 1: up un Addictioned. The name of the book is six

39
00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:27,160
Speaker 1: mind changing Conversations that could Save a life. And the

40
00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:31,640
Speaker 1: idea is what do we need to unlearn about addiction

41
00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,320
Speaker 1: that we think we know? What do we need to

42
00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,960
Speaker 1: undo in terms of stigma that's killing people, and what

43
00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,920
Speaker 1: do we need to uncover in terms of conversations that

44
00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,640
Speaker 1: could help save a life. And so the podcast is

45
00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,280
Speaker 1: trying to do those three things, like just have conversations

46
00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:55,839
Speaker 1: with a ton of amazing, freaking people who have their

47
00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,560
Speaker 1: own journey in a million different ways, so that people

48
00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,200
Speaker 1: listening could be like, oh, maybe I'll try it. And

49
00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,360
Speaker 1: so Jada shout out to our producer for this show

50
00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:08,480
Speaker 1: found you and was like in saying that you have

51
00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:10,480
Speaker 1: to have Laura on the show. And I looked about

52
00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,239
Speaker 1: you and I was like, hey, you are correct. So

53
00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:13,960
Speaker 1: so glad you're here.

54
00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:16,440
Speaker 2: Oh well, let's hope we do it justice, right.

55
00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:20,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, So can you tell the listeners who is Laura?

56
00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,000
Speaker 2: So I'm Laura Willoughby. I'm in the UK, as you

57
00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,040
Speaker 2: might be able to hear from my very British accent,

58
00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,800
Speaker 2: and I run Club Soda, which I've been running for

59
00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,760
Speaker 2: nearly ten years now. And I started off Club Soda

60
00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,760
Speaker 2: to be about behavior change, around change and drinking whatever

61
00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,480
Speaker 2: your goal, and be a bit like, you know, a

62
00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,000
Speaker 2: slimming club, but with alcohol, because not such thing existed.

63
00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:45,080
Speaker 2: And I'm slowly but surely and there's a story behind

64
00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,920
Speaker 2: all of that, we've evolved and now we spend a

65
00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:49,800
Speaker 2: lot of time. We still have our courses, but we

66
00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,720
Speaker 2: spend a lot of time campaigning for pubs, bars and

67
00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:54,520
Speaker 2: restaurants to have a better range of low and no

68
00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:59,400
Speaker 2: alcohol drink. Yes, moment we actually have a shop and bar.

69
00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,920
Speaker 2: That is part of that journey. It's not because I

70
00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,160
Speaker 2: want to be a retailer, because to be honest, I've

71
00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,640
Speaker 2: bit shit at it. But it's because by putting all

72
00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,480
Speaker 2: of those products in one space and normalizing it and

73
00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,360
Speaker 2: bringing venues in so they can try and sample and

74
00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,560
Speaker 2: play around with product, we can begin to shift the narrative.

75
00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,839
Speaker 2: And what's quite interesting is the lower no market started

76
00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,320
Speaker 2: in the UK in twenty seventeen. It's hitting the States now,

77
00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,760
Speaker 2: but we were the first adopters, which I can only

78
00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:29,880
Speaker 2: assume is because we started from a really low base.

79
00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,160
Speaker 2: That's all I can say. Because we're big, hefty drinkers

80
00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:33,640
Speaker 2: in the UK.

81
00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,919
Speaker 1: I mean, that is so cool. Twenty seventeen is not

82
00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,040
Speaker 1: a long time ago. That's like just now for that

83
00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,040
Speaker 1: to be kind of the origin of the low and

84
00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:44,440
Speaker 1: know And.

85
00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,520
Speaker 2: Until that point it was a few dusty bottles of

86
00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,479
Speaker 2: really substandard alcohol free beer on the shelves and that

87
00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:50,599
Speaker 2: way your options.

88
00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,680
Speaker 1: So you kind of gave a little teaser. You're like,

89
00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,120
Speaker 1: it's a story for how we got to be here now,

90
00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,440
Speaker 1: so tell us about So did club sodas start in

91
00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:01,359
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen.

92
00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:06,679
Speaker 2: No, we started in twenty fifteen, oh before. I started

93
00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,720
Speaker 2: working on club soda in twenty fourteen, and basically because

94
00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,839
Speaker 2: I gave up drinking in twenty twelve. And for anyone

95
00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,400
Speaker 2: who doesn't know, I've got a background in, you know,

96
00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:18,880
Speaker 2: working in the charitable sector and public service. I was

97
00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,000
Speaker 2: an elected local authority councilor for a long time in

98
00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,919
Speaker 2: the UK. I've stood for parliament several times. I'm a

99
00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,000
Speaker 2: campaigner by background. But when I gave up drinking, I

100
00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,520
Speaker 2: actually went on a one day workshop because after spending

101
00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,240
Speaker 2: years saying I must give up and having tons of

102
00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,600
Speaker 2: quidlet next to my bed that was mostly covered in

103
00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,360
Speaker 2: red wine stains, I decided that that wasn't the best

104
00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:42,479
Speaker 2: learning style for me. Trying to read a book, particularly

105
00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:46,480
Speaker 2: when you're continually hungover, it's actually really quite difficult. So

106
00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:48,800
Speaker 2: I decided to go on a one day course because

107
00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,120
Speaker 2: that just immersing myself for a day felt like the

108
00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,000
Speaker 2: right thing to do. But actually the one day course

109
00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,440
Speaker 2: was so unethical made me so angry I never drank again.

110
00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:02,479
Speaker 1: No, what was about it? Well, because this sounds like

111
00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:04,919
Speaker 1: it's going to fall into the unlearned and undo.

112
00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,320
Speaker 2: Well, well, it's interesting because first I never wanted to

113
00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,039
Speaker 2: go anywhere near AA for lots of reasons. It's I know,

114
00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:12,640
Speaker 2: it's a lot bigger in the States than it is

115
00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,359
Speaker 2: in the UK, but it didn't suit who I feel

116
00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,039
Speaker 2: I am, and I don't like a lot of the language,

117
00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,960
Speaker 2: the disease based language and the higher power language, so

118
00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,840
Speaker 2: I wasn't going to go near AA. Look, we do

119
00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,360
Speaker 2: have public health services in the UK, so you can

120
00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,640
Speaker 2: go to drug and alcohol services that are free and

121
00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,839
Speaker 2: publicly funded, but they mainly are available during the day.

122
00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,280
Speaker 2: They're mainly aimed at people like I was in charge

123
00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,000
Speaker 2: of commissioning them, so you know, I knew where they were,

124
00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:41,400
Speaker 2: but they were not they I didn't feel they were

125
00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,000
Speaker 2: right for me either. I went on this one day course,

126
00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:47,440
Speaker 2: which is actually by a very popular company that also

127
00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,360
Speaker 2: does smoking cessation. That might give you a clue who

128
00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,280
Speaker 2: that might be. I shouldn't really say who it is,

129
00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,840
Speaker 2: but basically they just read the book that they have

130
00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,360
Speaker 2: written during the day, but in the room were people

131
00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,680
Speaker 2: who are clearly pendant drinkers who were told to stop immediately,

132
00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,240
Speaker 2: which is dangerous, and also not given any support. And

133
00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:10,720
Speaker 2: I don't, you know, I don't believe that you can

134
00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,440
Speaker 2: work with people who are you know, vulnerable, who've been

135
00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:16,040
Speaker 2: told by their doctors they have to give up or

136
00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,920
Speaker 2: they're going to die, who have got quite traumatic family

137
00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,280
Speaker 2: situations and have tried time and time again and take

138
00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,120
Speaker 2: money off of them and then send them out into

139
00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,760
Speaker 2: the world without any support around that. So when I

140
00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,240
Speaker 2: set up Club Soda, I got a small grant for

141
00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,440
Speaker 2: ideas that might change the world and started to look

142
00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,920
Speaker 2: at whether there was at least an online solution for

143
00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,840
Speaker 2: people that's based around behavior change science that allowed people

144
00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,120
Speaker 2: who've got the capacity to help themselves to take some

145
00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,640
Speaker 2: steps towards doing that, because actually, if you can help

146
00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,000
Speaker 2: those people already capable of helping themselves, then you relieve

147
00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,720
Speaker 2: some of that pressure anyway, and for some people, going

148
00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,760
Speaker 2: to you know, drug and alcohol services, which are really

149
00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,040
Speaker 2: still quite hard to access the UK anyway, was not

150
00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,120
Speaker 2: a good option. What they wanted to do was talk

151
00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,720
Speaker 2: to other people doing something similar to them, so they

152
00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,720
Speaker 2: could read about what goes on and realize that if

153
00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,600
Speaker 2: you give up drinking or cut down your drinking, the

154
00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,160
Speaker 2: sky doesn't fall in. And so that's where club Soda started.

155
00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:20,920
Speaker 2: But then in twenty fifteen and surprisingly our members started

156
00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:22,920
Speaker 2: to moan about the lack of choices in pubs and

157
00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,360
Speaker 2: bars and so okay law saying don't drink, we go out,

158
00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,680
Speaker 2: but it's all a load of crab, and so I did.

159
00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:30,720
Speaker 2: We got some funding for a piece of research called

160
00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,520
Speaker 2: Nudging Pubs, where we went and we spoke to loads

161
00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,320
Speaker 2: of pubs in a particular area and worked out what

162
00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,720
Speaker 2: it would take to get them to think more about

163
00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:47,040
Speaker 2: their non drinking customers. And we identify and we identified

164
00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,199
Speaker 2: there's a lack of product. So the choices were coco

165
00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:53,280
Speaker 2: lemonade and sometimes there might be a nice craft soda,

166
00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,680
Speaker 2: but that was about it. That wholesalers are part of

167
00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,600
Speaker 2: the gatekeepers on what goes into pubs and bars, because

168
00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,480
Speaker 2: most pubs and venues and restaurants here in the UK

169
00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,280
Speaker 2: will order from one of probably four wholesalers, not predominantly,

170
00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,120
Speaker 2: and they decide what ends up going into venues. And

171
00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,000
Speaker 2: then also we decided that really every venue should be

172
00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,440
Speaker 2: run by a woman, because every space that we went

173
00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:18,719
Speaker 2: to where a woman was running it, they were a

174
00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,000
Speaker 2: lot more conscious of the fact that they wanted pregnant

175
00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,840
Speaker 2: women to come in during lunch time down their drinking.

176
00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:30,360
Speaker 2: So that's what started this ball rolling of you know, ultimately, Zinger,

177
00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,720
Speaker 2: you can't change who you are, and I am a

178
00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:37,000
Speaker 2: campaigner and I couldn't change the fact that people presented

179
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:38,680
Speaker 2: me a problem. I wanted to work out how to

180
00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:40,760
Speaker 2: change it. So after trying to set up a proper

181
00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,800
Speaker 2: grown up business helping people, what I've basically built is

182
00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,480
Speaker 2: a campaign and everything we've done is built from there.

183
00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,400
Speaker 2: And you know, we did a pub guide after that,

184
00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,840
Speaker 2: and then just at that point, some alcohol free at

185
00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,120
Speaker 2: the start of twenty seventeen started to come on the market,

186
00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,560
Speaker 2: so Heinhly can launch their zero zero Big Drop launch

187
00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:00,760
Speaker 2: their beer seed Lip had just been going about six

188
00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,080
Speaker 2: months seven months, and we thought, well, you know what,

189
00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,560
Speaker 2: we should put a festival on with all these drinks

190
00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,160
Speaker 2: and let people come. And I was really frightened no

191
00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:11,680
Speaker 2: one's going to come, but we had this amazing sort

192
00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:15,719
Speaker 2: of afternoon festival where hundreds of people turned up, and

193
00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:20,720
Speaker 2: that's where it all started. And ultimately, you know, switching

194
00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,040
Speaker 2: from an alcoholic drink to an alcohol free drink is

195
00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,119
Speaker 2: one behavior change technique you can have in your toolbox,

196
00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,520
Speaker 2: but it's a significant one. It's got the potential to

197
00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:33,280
Speaker 2: be quite transformative for society, not just the individual. And

198
00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,280
Speaker 2: so we're leaning into that particular behavior change technique. Really,

199
00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,679
Speaker 2: that's where we are. You've got it all in one goes.

200
00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:41,920
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it was so good. I was like,

201
00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,560
Speaker 1: where's my popcorn? Yeah, where's my popcorn? And my my

202
00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:51,480
Speaker 1: alcohol free sparkling rose, which is my favorite? Oh yeah, nice,

203
00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,880
Speaker 1: But I love this so much. So my husband and

204
00:10:55,920 --> 00:11:00,000
Speaker 1: I have just started becoming like obsessed with alcohol free.

205
00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,679
Speaker 1: I like sparkling wine. That's like the only thing that

206
00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:10,320
Speaker 1: I like to drink. He'll do the beers. We have

207
00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,680
Speaker 1: some cocktails. But when I did the book launch, I

208
00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,880
Speaker 1: did a completely alcohol free book launch and put like

209
00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,520
Speaker 1: all of these different yeah, put all of these different

210
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,800
Speaker 1: options in front of people, and like, I did not

211
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,840
Speaker 1: even know there was a Heineken zero zero and a

212
00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:31,960
Speaker 1: Corona alcohol free. Why are they're not commercials? Heineken Well,

213
00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,679
Speaker 1: to be honest, in the UK, in the UK.

214
00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:42,200
Speaker 2: They they sponsor the football. There's advert really they like America,

215
00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,600
Speaker 2: is It's coming to you? They spend twenty five percent

216
00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,400
Speaker 2: of their marketing budget on their zero zero. Yeah really,

217
00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:53,360
Speaker 2: and Guinness sponsors. Guinness zero zero sponsors the rugby. All

218
00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,559
Speaker 2: I can say is I think it will come. Heineken's

219
00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:59,040
Speaker 2: a European company, but you've got a brewing in the States. Yeah,

220
00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,839
Speaker 2: really big. And you know, I think the Corona zero.

221
00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:05,640
Speaker 2: You know, they're sponsoring the Olympics, so that's going to

222
00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,800
Speaker 2: be in everybody's front room. It's a little bit controversial,

223
00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:13,120
Speaker 2: but you know, and I think that's really exciting for

224
00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:15,720
Speaker 2: all of the small brands that create in this space.

225
00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:17,439
Speaker 2: And there are lots of them and I love them dearly,

226
00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:18,920
Speaker 2: and they're most of what we have in the shop.

227
00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,120
Speaker 2: They will never have the budgets that a big drinks company,

228
00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,760
Speaker 2: a big global drinks companies like AB and Bevon and

229
00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,560
Speaker 2: heine can have. And so them putting it right in

230
00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:32,240
Speaker 2: front of people's faces in sports venues, putting it on

231
00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,960
Speaker 2: draft in bars, all of that sort of stuff will

232
00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,719
Speaker 2: really make the difference. And it shows you what's very

233
00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:43,080
Speaker 2: different now from when you know, there have been other times,

234
00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:44,760
Speaker 2: like in the seventies, I was a little attempt to

235
00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,800
Speaker 2: get alcohol free into the public domain that didn't really

236
00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,600
Speaker 2: work very well in the UK. The product was very terrible,

237
00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,320
Speaker 2: but taste is what's bringing people back to product. And

238
00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:56,520
Speaker 2: I guess the most important thing for everyone to know

239
00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:02,960
Speaker 2: is that it's moderation that's driving the trend. So you

240
00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:08,680
Speaker 2: may be going alcohol free, but we're all in this together,

241
00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,720
Speaker 2: it's my view, and a bit like disabled access, that

242
00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,320
Speaker 2: makes the world better for everyone. Good alcohol free drinks

243
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,160
Speaker 2: makes socializing better for everyone because it allows people to moderate.

244
00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,640
Speaker 2: It normalizes not drinking, and therefore, if that had been

245
00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:25,319
Speaker 2: around when I was younger, that might have been a

246
00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:30,000
Speaker 2: very different story for me. So I'm really interested to

247
00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,120
Speaker 2: or excited to say to people, you know, this is

248
00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,440
Speaker 2: part of a big societal shift. We wanted to stick

249
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:40,839
Speaker 2: and this is global. So you know, people who and

250
00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,680
Speaker 2: I'm sober too, but people who are sober keep very

251
00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,400
Speaker 2: I'm very conscious they're sobriety and very protective of it

252
00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,800
Speaker 2: in the right way. But actually there's a lot more

253
00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,520
Speaker 2: in common with people who are moderating than we think,

254
00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,880
Speaker 2: and together we actually become quite a significant market that's

255
00:13:57,920 --> 00:13:59,720
Speaker 2: worth addressing and then we get delicious drinks.

256
00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,600
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, I love it so much. So in the book,

257
00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:08,400
Speaker 1: we I lay out like this sixth piece framework about

258
00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:13,320
Speaker 1: evaluating your own risk factors that are driving a risk

259
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,680
Speaker 1: for whatever addiction. So in this case, let's talk about alcohol.

260
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,240
Speaker 1: And so it says like, there are you know, three

261
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:26,120
Speaker 1: buckets biological, psychological, environmental, and environmental includes cultural environmental and

262
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,920
Speaker 1: physical environmental. And there are those things you're born into,

263
00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:34,720
Speaker 1: so inherited biological, psychological, environmental. And then are those things

264
00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:40,640
Speaker 1: that you acquire along your life, so acquired biological, psychological, environmental.

265
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:46,440
Speaker 1: And in the acquired environmental section, I talk about starting

266
00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:51,240
Speaker 1: a cultural revolution. And this is really what Club Soda is. Yeah.

267
00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,040
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And it's only one part of the mix, because

268
00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,320
Speaker 2: you know, I have other views on everything from the

269
00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,200
Speaker 2: health economics of our sort of stuff. But I also

270
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,040
Speaker 2: don't believe in banning alcohol. So you know, it's a

271
00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:09,480
Speaker 2: really interesting space to be in. But I I guess,

272
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,200
Speaker 2: because I've got politics background, I'm quite in I mean,

273
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:14,760
Speaker 2: really interested in systems change. And of course, in order

274
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,920
Speaker 2: to change the way the world works, you are right,

275
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,880
Speaker 2: we need to change the stories that we grow up

276
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:22,880
Speaker 2: in because you know, my dad was a big drinker,

277
00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,840
Speaker 2: killed him when he was fifty seven. I inherited my

278
00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:31,640
Speaker 2: dad's drinking habits and his boobs, so you know, absolutely

279
00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:37,000
Speaker 2: they're definitely not my mum's, so you know, and you

280
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,640
Speaker 2: know culture in our family, drinking was a big part

281
00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:41,320
Speaker 2: of it. You know, Dad will always go to the

282
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,480
Speaker 2: pub and we actually lived in a pub and ran

283
00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,080
Speaker 2: a pub for a short while. So there's lots in

284
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,840
Speaker 2: our family stories that is inherited over hundreds and hundreds

285
00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,080
Speaker 2: of years because alcohol is present in our homes and

286
00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,280
Speaker 2: we tell all sorts of stories about it and we've

287
00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:59,400
Speaker 2: normalized it so for so long. And it's really interesting

288
00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,400
Speaker 2: to see women my age and in the UK, women

289
00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,960
Speaker 2: of my age, so wine just turned fifty, are all

290
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,160
Speaker 2: now going through menopause and so they're really lots of

291
00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,000
Speaker 2: reevaluating drinking. But we're the biggest drinking generation of women

292
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,760
Speaker 2: ever in Britain. We're the Laddeck generation for a whole

293
00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:20,240
Speaker 2: load of cultural reasons. One was the shift in gender

294
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,360
Speaker 2: dynamics in the workplace around the late eighties, where it

295
00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,320
Speaker 2: was no longer acceptable for the men to go to

296
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,600
Speaker 2: work to the pub in the evening and women to

297
00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,359
Speaker 2: look after the kids on their own. Wine became affordable

298
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,000
Speaker 2: and in the supermarket, and so couples would buy wine

299
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,120
Speaker 2: to drink at home. And wine itself is a whole

300
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,640
Speaker 2: different beast to other drinks in terms of how it

301
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,720
Speaker 2: impacts you. And we thought quality was drinking as much

302
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:45,280
Speaker 2: as the lads and I would, you know, drink the

303
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,520
Speaker 2: lads under the table at university. So you know, all

304
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:50,840
Speaker 2: of those things together have created this sort of time

305
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:52,560
Speaker 2: bomb for women of my age. And you're seeing a

306
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,000
Speaker 2: lot of women in my age dying from alcohol issues,

307
00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,600
Speaker 2: but also loads giving it up and going you know,

308
00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,320
Speaker 2: it's not serving my mental health, it's not helping me

309
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,880
Speaker 2: through menopause. And I can eat as much kale as

310
00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,160
Speaker 2: I like by undo all the hard work if I'm

311
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,760
Speaker 2: smashing back a bottle of wine in the evening. And

312
00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,360
Speaker 2: so you can just see from that example how many

313
00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:17,360
Speaker 2: things shifted in the late eighties early nineties for my demographics.

314
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,000
Speaker 2: So just imagine how that's been over time that all

315
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,879
Speaker 2: these things, and to undo all of that, we need

316
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,280
Speaker 2: to have products in place. Talk to venues about the

317
00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,480
Speaker 2: fact that they lose money if they've not got good

318
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,000
Speaker 2: alcohol free that socializing is actually changing. Young people have

319
00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,520
Speaker 2: driven a real shift in socializing in the way that

320
00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,200
Speaker 2: we socialize, particularly in Britain. You're a little less booze

321
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:43,399
Speaker 2: heavy in some respects in the States. And so and

322
00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:47,200
Speaker 2: I've got this massive list of what I call barriers

323
00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,800
Speaker 2: to adoption that are everything from government legislation all the

324
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,920
Speaker 2: way through to how we talk about drinking and how

325
00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:58,480
Speaker 2: we talk to venues and how we change away forms work.

326
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,480
Speaker 2: Small things, but you know they can really make a difference.

327
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,520
Speaker 1: No, it's true all of that. And we I recently,

328
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:10,600
Speaker 1: maybe it was four six months ago, saw an article

329
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,000
Speaker 1: and the headline was something like the younger generation is

330
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,159
Speaker 1: turning away from alcohol. And I was like, yes, because

331
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,000
Speaker 1: it's this, like you said, changing the stories that we

332
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:25,600
Speaker 1: tell ourselves, those psychological and social factors that we Inherit

333
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:29,160
Speaker 1: also our biological factors, right, So, like I have addiction

334
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,960
Speaker 1: on both sides of my family, alcoholism on both sides

335
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,159
Speaker 1: of my family. And so I'm telling my kids, listen,

336
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,160
Speaker 1: we're genetically loaded. And so the way you can drink

337
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,240
Speaker 1: may not be the way someone else can drink, or

338
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,160
Speaker 1: the way they can do a line of cocaine may

339
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,560
Speaker 1: not be the way you can do a line of cocaine, right,

340
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,120
Speaker 1: and just making it, like you said, making it okay

341
00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,359
Speaker 1: to be like, I don't drink without people being like,

342
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:54,400
Speaker 1: are you a weirdo?

343
00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:56,760
Speaker 2: And it's funny because from the plus sides of social

344
00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,840
Speaker 2: media is it means that the only people you speak

345
00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:03,240
Speaker 2: to about these things aren't your family, they are other people.

346
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,359
Speaker 2: And after setting up Club Soda, you know, we started

347
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:10,320
Speaker 2: up set up Club Soda when Instagram mustle its infancy,

348
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,280
Speaker 2: but we're two years in Instagram was going mental and

349
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:15,680
Speaker 2: suddenly you had lots of young people talking very positively

350
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,480
Speaker 2: about changing drinking, and they were talking about how alcohol

351
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,320
Speaker 2: causes anxiety. And my age group were taught that alcohol

352
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,439
Speaker 2: was there to deal with anxiety. Right, So that shift

353
00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,479
Speaker 2: on its own is really really fundamental. And people listening

354
00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:35,239
Speaker 2: not to their parents but to other people about that

355
00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,840
Speaker 2: and their mental health I think has a massive, massive

356
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,359
Speaker 2: impact on that. There's so I mean, there's so many

357
00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:45,399
Speaker 2: things to say, but you're absolutely right. It's about changing

358
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,560
Speaker 2: those narratives and changing the stories and listening to different people.

359
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,000
Speaker 1: One of the concepts in the book is called the

360
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,040
Speaker 1: magic formula, and I always start out by saying what

361
00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,440
Speaker 1: I love about it most is that it's not magic.

362
00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:04,480
Speaker 1: It's really understanding you're inherited biological psychological environmental, you're acquired

363
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,240
Speaker 1: biological psychological environmental like what was it like when you

364
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,680
Speaker 1: were little? What is it like now? And knowing that

365
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:17,040
Speaker 1: there are an infinite number of factors that create an

366
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:22,720
Speaker 1: infinite number of pathways into difficulty with alcohol we'll talk

367
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,480
Speaker 1: about in this episode. And so to your point, AA

368
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:31,080
Speaker 1: wasn't for you. The treatment that was available wasn't for you,

369
00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:35,640
Speaker 1: and so you created another path to your own journey. Yeah.

370
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,840
Speaker 2: Now there's lots of paths because people can find you know,

371
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:40,840
Speaker 2: there's never one size fits all, and I think it's

372
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:41,680
Speaker 2: really important.

373
00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:43,639
Speaker 1: That's right, And I think that's the magic part.

374
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think dipping into lots of things, not

375
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:50,919
Speaker 2: just one thing, is also really important because you'll increase

376
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 2: your self efficacy, your ability to help yourself the more

377
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,960
Speaker 2: you learn, and every time you try and don't succeed,

378
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,560
Speaker 2: you're not failing. You're learning new things, and so it's

379
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,840
Speaker 2: really important that every time you pick up new things.

380
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,639
Speaker 2: But you know, for me, there's some real damage in

381
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,400
Speaker 2: the language that AA has, particularly here in the UK,

382
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:12,879
Speaker 2: I mean in America, people are far more buoyant about

383
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 2: talking about being alcoholic, and it's a protective status in

384
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:17,879
Speaker 2: the States. But alcoholics are a really weird word here.

385
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,880
Speaker 2: It's an identity and it's not a medical condition here.

386
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,240
Speaker 1: Oh well, we're not too far from there. In the Yeah,

387
00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:26,440
Speaker 1: too much created.

388
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,439
Speaker 2: But it creates a view that there's a line and

389
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:32,959
Speaker 2: you're either one side of it and you're okay exactly

390
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:37,240
Speaker 2: the other and you're not. And that's not true because

391
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,760
Speaker 2: you don't Some people don't need to drink very much

392
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,479
Speaker 2: for it to be impacting on their mental health. And

393
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,920
Speaker 2: some people are drinking a shed load because their tolerance

394
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 2: is so high. And this is a wine thing really

395
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,719
Speaker 2: in the UK that they're managing to function, but they

396
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:52,480
Speaker 2: don't know what it's like to function. And that's where

397
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 2: I was without quite a lot of alcohol. And so

398
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,119
Speaker 2: you know, you've managed to do amazing things in your life,

399
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 2: and therefore it seems like you've got your ship together,

400
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 2: but actually it's amazing. I just tell you, like, I

401
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 2: was a pain in the ass when I was drinking,

402
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 2: but I'm even bigger pain in the ass now right,

403
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:11,440
Speaker 2: much more.

404
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,680
Speaker 1: And you were not fulfilling your full potential.

405
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 2: I was not feeling my potential to be really annoying

406
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:21,600
Speaker 2: to lot people. So you know it's there for you guys.

407
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,400
Speaker 1: It's so true. So one of the things I hope

408
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:29,359
Speaker 1: that we do as part of this podcast is help people.

409
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 1: I don't know, do you hear my cats running around

410
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:32,640
Speaker 1: like Baniac?

411
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,720
Speaker 2: Well, how about Zinger? Do you hear my cats running

412
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 2: around like?

413
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,639
Speaker 1: Maybe my cats hear your cats? Because there is.

414
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:44,159
Speaker 2: Cats anything their feed away. They scratch on the scratchboard,

415
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 2: I mean.

416
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 1: Having we're having a cat off live on the podcast.

417
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 1: But about that magic formula, and I want to touch

418
00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,440
Speaker 1: on two things that you said when you said earlier

419
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 1: and when you just said there are a lot of

420
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 1: different things, and so Club Soda is right now focusing

421
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:11,280
Speaker 1: on one behavioral modification tool in the box, which is

422
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 1: replacing some of your full alcohol drinks with low or

423
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,919
Speaker 1: no alcohol drinks. And so I want to ask you

424
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 1: what are other tools that are in your formula right now?

425
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 1: And maybe how has your formula changed over time so

426
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 1: that people listening can be like, oh, I'll try that,

427
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 1: Oh I'll try that. And before you jump in, what

428
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 1: you said that I loved that I want to magnify

429
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 1: each time you try to make a change, you're not failing.

430
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,640
Speaker 1: You're learning something, learning a new tool, saying that work

431
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,199
Speaker 1: that didn't work. And a while back, I saw this

432
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:51,919
Speaker 1: behavioral change graphic and it had a spiral, but it

433
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 1: was spiraling up. And so it was like, each time

434
00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 1: you make an effort, you're not spiraling down the toilet ball,

435
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 1: you're spiraling up towards you. And so maybe you can

436
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 1: talk to us about what your spiral has been like.

437
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean if I was to talk about tools.

438
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 2: So we we have some online courses and we actually

439
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 2: published a book. It was just before lockdown, so it

440
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 2: all got a bit lost in the miss of time.

441
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 2: It's even American version of the book.

442
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: Which is tell us the name of the book.

443
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 2: Which is called How to be a Mindful Drinker. And

444
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 2: I think I'm not a trained coach. I don't want

445
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 2: to be a coach. It was far too much listening.

446
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:33,160
Speaker 2: I have skills. But what I've done is we've stayed

447
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 2: in our lane, and so we've built some stuff with

448
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,919
Speaker 2: the help of scientists. We've got some funding from the

449
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,919
Speaker 2: Welcome Trust and some people who are coaches to build

450
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 2: behavior change courses that are very specific, and a lot

451
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 2: of that is about getting people to not focus on

452
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 2: on really what they're whether they're stopping or moderating at

453
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 2: the very beginning, but instead to look at what they

454
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 2: want their few to be and where they think alcohol

455
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 2: can help them do that. So it's really interesting because

456
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 2: you talk about all those learned and environment intrinsic and actsic,

457
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 2: external fact and all those factors, and of course we

458
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 2: all have a future that we look for, because otherwise

459
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 2: we wouldn't buy so many self help books. Honestly, I

460
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,239
Speaker 2: thought the more self help books I'd buy, the more

461
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 2: perfect iou become. But I've realized that doesn't work because

462
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 2: you've actually got to do the work in the books.

463
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 2: Who are you? So focusing on who it is that

464
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 2: you want to be and where alcohol fits into that

465
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 2: will help keep you motivated because otherwise, when you're changing

466
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 2: your drinking, you're always considering the loss and gain, and

467
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 2: so I think that's really important. And actually discovering new

468
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,400
Speaker 2: drinks is now a new gain that didn't exist when

469
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 2: I was giving up. Although when I gave up, honestly,

470
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 2: I bought all sorts of weird drinks from America and

471
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 2: got them shipped over and I had a soda stream.

472
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 2: I had this whole you know, like, let's find something

473
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 2: interesting to drink type thing. And then I discovered tea,

474
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 2: which for a brit you may think so weird, but

475
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 2: I never drank tea. And then I discovered really expensive

476
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 2: loose sleeve tea. So now I like, you know, spend

477
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 2: three pounds a gram on on tea. Anyway, that's a

478
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 2: whole other way. Again, that's a whole other podcast singer.

479
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 2: But you do need to keep yourself occupied, right, and

480
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 2: you need to occupy yourself with things that are a

481
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 2: joy in their own right. You may never follow them through.

482
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 2: I did some sewing. I did some terrible sewing. When

483
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 2: I first gave up drinking. I sat with a really

484
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 2: cheap sewing machine and produced a load of rubbish. But

485
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:30,440
Speaker 2: it kept.

486
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: Did you come up with the idea like, okay, I'm

487
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 1: going to.

488
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 2: Sell well, I felt like it's well, you know, all

489
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 2: those things that you feel you should do, and should

490
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 2: is a terrible word. Anyway, I gave I gave them

491
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 2: a go, and they weren't for me. But for a

492
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 2: short while they occupied my hands, and they occupied my

493
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 2: evenings and they were an interesting puzzle. And I do

494
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 2: believe that when you were at a crossroads that you

495
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 2: should follow every path. And some paths will take you

496
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 2: on a long and exciting journey, and some of them

497
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 2: would just be a for short little meander and they

498
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,199
Speaker 2: will keep you occupied for a time. And when you

499
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 2: give up drinking, you do release a lot of time.

500
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,639
Speaker 2: So you need to focus on a future and not

501
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 2: focus on the things that you're not doing, and try

502
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,880
Speaker 2: out some things you may never have tried before and

503
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 2: see if they work for you and they may not,

504
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 2: and discover new things, because I do think giving up

505
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 2: drinking is a bit like one hundred liitle epiphanies. You

506
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 2: learn lots about yourself, You learn lots about your emotions,

507
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 2: and you learn lots about your capabilities. And for me,

508
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 2: I learned to trust my gut. And also it really

509
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 2: brought me back to my values and I'm really values

510
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,159
Speaker 2: led and I you know, I really felt reconnected me

511
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 2: with my value. So you'll learn lots of things, but

512
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 2: they should all be seen as positive things that you

513
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 2: now have time to explore that you might not have

514
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 2: had when really you're thinking about where your next drink

515
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 2: is or you're hungover because you've drunk too much and

516
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 2: your time just contracts. And so that focus on positive

517
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 2: the future, trying things you never tried before, pushing yourself

518
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 2: your comfort zone is really really interesting and I think

519
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:08,199
Speaker 2: they are interesting tools to explore. And one of our

520
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,880
Speaker 2: podcast series is called The Next Round, where we talk

521
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 2: to people about the things that they've done since they've

522
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 2: given up drinking. And some people have done stand up comedy,

523
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 2: and some people have swum long distances, and some people

524
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 2: have just you know, done some simple things like taking

525
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 2: up crochet. But they're all very personal and they're all

526
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 2: really positive and lovely, and so I do want to

527
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 2: encourage people to make a list of those things that

528
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 2: they thought they would try and never have and find

529
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 2: where that add education courses or that community or meetup

530
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 2: is that you can join in, but also focus on

531
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 2: that bigger long term goal on who you want to

532
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 2: be when you grow up. I mean, I have to

533
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 2: say I'm still working on that one.

534
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: But I mean a good life I think is like

535
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: actually never getting to the grown up part, right, It's

536
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: just like keep working on it forever.

537
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 2: Thanks Zinger, that makes me feel a lot better.

538
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 1: Come here, for you.

539
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 2: Really, I'm just like, I went to somebody's house the

540
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 2: day and it was all perfect and they had nice

541
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 2: art on the walls, and you know, and I just thought,

542
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: somewhere I've got a little bit wrong.

543
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 1: So I love this so much because you like, you

544
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: say these phrases and they jump on me and then

545
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: I love them. You're like, there are a lot of

546
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: different paths, and some of them lead to amazing, exceptional things,

547
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: and some of them lead to something mediocre. But take

548
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: a lot of different paths, and I think that's really

549
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: part of you know, if we go all the way

550
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: back in the history of where we I'll say quote

551
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: went wrong. And my position on AA is that it

552
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: came out of nowhere when there was nothing. So I'm

553
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: grateful for that. But I think the mistake in it,

554
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: which is a human mistake, is like and this is

555
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,959
Speaker 1: the only way. And really what you're talking about is

556
00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: all of those paths and the courage to take a

557
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: risk by walking down that path, not knowing if it's

558
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: the path for right now or if it's the path.

559
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: I also think not putting the pressure on it being

560
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 1: the path forever's.

561
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 2: Absolutely and I often feel really touched by members of

562
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 2: Club Soda who talk to me about the fact that

563
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 2: they're really worried about friendships when they give us drinking

564
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 2: or what they do with their time. And that also

565
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 2: is partly social, which is that we've learned to spend

566
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 2: so much time around alcohol that understanding what's around and

567
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 2: not noticing that loads of other people are not drinking

568
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 2: and they're getting on with really fun stuff is really

569
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 2: interesting because so much of what you've done has been

570
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 2: you know, I speak to people whose Christmases are all

571
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 2: about here, we decorate the tree and we do that

572
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 2: with brandy, and then we do this around Christmas, and

573
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 2: it involves this alcohol. And each each tradition around Christmas

574
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 2: is around the alcohol and not around Hey, let's drive

575
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 2: there for two hours and go ice skating and then

576
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 2: drive back because you can because you can drive. And

577
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 2: all of those traditions are about doing things, and of

578
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 2: course there are lots of people out there doing that stuff,

579
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 2: but when you're drinking, you never notice them, and so

580
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 2: it does feel like a really frightening thing. But there

581
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,479
Speaker 2: are walking clubs, there are cinema clubs. There are actually

582
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 2: more than ever there are social occasions that are not

583
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 2: focused around alcohol, and in the UK that's changing really fast.

584
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: It's not a good night out just to stand there

585
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 2: with a drink anymore. Nobody will stand for that anymore.

586
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 2: If you'd said to me when I moved to London

587
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety six that you'll be able to buy

588
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 2: dessert in Soho at one in the morning, I would

589
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: have thought that was really funny. But you know, our

590
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 2: dessert culture is growing alongside our changing drinking culture because

591
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 2: cake is now considered to be the treat, not booze.

592
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 2: Cake doesn't give you a hangover unless you know you,

593
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 2: you know, probably a ton of it, maybe with some

594
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,719
Speaker 2: alcohol that in it. Maybe that dessert might do you in.

595
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 2: But you know, it's we're reframing what treat and reward

596
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 2: is and you know, some things a lot healthier, and

597
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 2: definitely cake is healthier than smashing out a load of

598
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 2: beer in the evening.

599
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: Definitely, even though my doctor recently diagnosed me with high cholesterol,

600
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,479
Speaker 1: which I'm dismayed, but whatever. So I made some boy

601
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: behavioral changes and the number one behavioral change I had

602
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: to make was decreased sugar. And I was like, this

603
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: is the meanest thing anyone has ever said.

604
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 2: To me, well singer, But then surely it's about picking

605
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 2: and choosing your sugar, right.

606
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 1: It is correct?

607
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,719
Speaker 2: Should I tell you? Should I tell you my fun fact?

608
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 1: Yes, give it to me, would you ready?

609
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 2: Once you take alcohol out of beer, it's one of

610
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 2: the healthiest things that you can drink. It's not to

611
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 2: process food, it's for ingredients. There is no sugar in

612
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 2: it most of the beers, and that's one that some

613
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 2: might have some malts syrup put into, but don't go

614
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 2: near those. You know, most of the alcohol free beers

615
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 2: in the UK have got under zero point five grams

616
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 2: per hundred mils of natural sugars in, so that's nothing thing.

617
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 2: And it's also rehydrating and full of vitamins that you

618
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:05,719
Speaker 2: now absorb because you didn't absorb them when it had

619
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 2: alcohol in. So next to water, it's probably one of

620
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 2: the healthiest things that you can drink, right, So smash out,

621
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 2: get rid of all those sodas, learn love beer, which

622
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 2: I have done. Oh, and then you can save your

623
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 2: sugar for the I know I can.

624
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 1: Save my sugar for the cake. Because if you saw

625
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: the way my eyes lit up when you were like

626
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: the dessert scene is growing, I was like no to

627
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: self trip to London, yeah, which I've never been to London.

628
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: But if I come, can we go out for cake?

629
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, we can do it. Rocotta hot cakes. Actually

630
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 2: they're quite healthy. I think maybe not with the maple

631
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 2: syrup on, but it's okay.

632
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: I just moderate. I just moderate all the way into

633
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: that trip. And then you know, like bank my my

634
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: alignment and.

635
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 2: You can drink with an alcohol free beer so that

636
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 2: it councels it out.

637
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: I reckon our trip is planned. It is we are

638
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: getting close, which happens when you're having a good time.

639
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: And so I always say near the end. Literally, this

640
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: is what I always say, Laura. Sometimes at the beginning

641
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: I remember to tell people I'm going to ask this question,

642
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 1: but I'm always saying it at the end because I

643
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: basically never remember at the beginning to tell people that

644
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask this question. So I want to

645
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: talk a little bit more, but right before we get out,

646
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you this question on addiction is

647
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 1: the word that we made up. If there's one thing

648
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: you want people to unlearn, or if there's one stigma

649
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 1: you want people to undo, or if there's one conversation

650
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: you want people to uncover what would it be. But

651
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 1: I'm just telling you I'm gonna ask that. I'm not

652
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: asking it. I'm not asking it right now. I'm gonna

653
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: ask it in like five minutes.

654
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 2: Oh but you need to ask me any questions you've

655
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 2: got about alcohol fee, drink singer, You've got me.

656
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: Hands tell us everything. So one, how does a drink

657
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: get alcohol free? Is there a difference between Like so

658
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 1: when I just went to a restaurant that the day

659
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: and there was like alcohol drink free menu and it

660
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: was like soda and sweet tea and lemonade, and I

661
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,320
Speaker 1: was like, that's not what we're talking about.

662
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 2: No, there's a solt drink.

663
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell us what we're actually talking about, beer, wine, cocktails.

664
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,280
Speaker 2: So we're talking about drinks that are designed for social

665
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 2: occasion rather than rehydrating, so they don't fit in the

666
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 2: soft drink occasion. And largely at the moment, they are

667
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 2: drinks that are designed to replicate an alcoholic drink, but

668
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 2: not soul. And there's a lot of things happening in

669
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 2: this space, but they're definitely designed around an occasion, so

670
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 2: they're not designed for you to drink at home on

671
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 2: your own during the day while you're working. They're designed

672
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 2: for you to drink when you're out and about in

673
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,839
Speaker 2: a pub or bar or restaurant, or when you're socializing.

674
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 2: So that's the best way to do it. Because actually

675
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 2: there's some beautiful drinks that are low and sugar. They've

676
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 2: got apple cider vinegar at their base, right, which are shrubs,

677
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 2: which actually America used to drink a lot of during

678
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 2: the Prohibition era because shrubs use vinegar to extract flavor

679
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 2: and therefore there's a lot of acidity and bite in them.

680
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 2: But they're not a replica of an alcoholic drink, and

681
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 2: they can be a soda, but put into a really

682
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 2: nice spirit bottle, topped up with tonic, put with a

683
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 2: nice garnish, put inside a cocktail, they suddenly become a

684
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 2: drink that suit an occasion, and that occasion is one

685
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 2: where we've traditionally learnt to drink in. So that's how

686
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 2: i'd characterize them. So in that are kombuchers that maybe

687
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 2: are in a champagne bottle as opposed to the kombucci

688
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 2: you might be buying the health food store that's in

689
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 2: a can right screwtop, for example. Although I would always

690
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 2: certainly there's some really nice craft kombuchas that would sit

691
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 2: nicely alongside craft beers, for example. So there is obviously

692
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 2: a little wavy line, but they're definitely drinks that are

693
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 2: designed for adults as well, and so you would expect

694
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 2: to see them in the beer wine in spirits Aisle,

695
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,320
Speaker 2: and therefore you should expect also to be age id'd

696
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 2: for them, because that's where.

697
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 1: That I was age id'd, and I was surprised. One.

698
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: I was surprised because you see all there's gray hair,

699
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,320
Speaker 1: I know, But two that's like it's alcohol.

700
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,879
Speaker 2: But I think we need to suck that up right,

701
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 2: because ultimately these drinks were to be in the beer

702
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 2: wine and spirit sile because they're aimed at adults for

703
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 2: an evening occasion, and till systems aren't that sophisticated, so

704
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 2: we just have to roll with it. The other thing

705
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 2: is is nobody in this space wants to be accused

706
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 2: of trying to encourage young people to drink by drinking

707
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 2: alcohol free Now, as much as I tell policy makers,

708
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 2: that's not the way alcohol works, because you learn to

709
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 2: like alcohol because of its effect, and so if people

710
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,760
Speaker 2: drink lots of alcohol free beer, I'll be very surprised

711
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 2: if it encourage them to want to drink an alcoholic beer.

712
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 2: But definitely brands that have got an alcoholic brand like

713
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 2: Heineken or Guinness or any of those people are being

714
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 2: very careful to not be seen to be aiming at children.

715
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 2: So for both those reasons, we just need to suck

716
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,919
Speaker 2: up being aged id'd and that's fine, Okay, I'll suck

717
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,720
Speaker 2: it up. So there you are. So that's the difference

718
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 2: between an adult alcohol free drink and sort of a

719
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,839
Speaker 2: soft drink. But obviously there are lots of flower sugar

720
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,800
Speaker 2: and craft soft drinks that will also you know, mainly

721
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 2: attract grown up up rather than kids, mainly because they've

722
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 2: got less sugar and I suspect, but you know, so

723
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 2: they will also fit in there a little bit in

724
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 2: like kombouchas and sparkling teas and all of that sort

725
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 2: of stuff, which are also can be really beautiful. So

726
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 2: that's the difference between those. And then you ask about

727
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 2: how drinks become alcohol free loads of different methods. Some

728
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 2: things like you know, shrubs are you know, lots of

729
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 2: ingredients are steeped in vinegar. Some things are blended, some

730
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 2: things are blended with distilled botanicals just like a gin

731
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,760
Speaker 2: would be. But obviously you need twice as much ingredient

732
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 2: because alcohol isn't present to be a flavor enhancer. Then

733
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 2: you've got things you've got naturally made beers that use

734
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:43,359
Speaker 2: a arrested fermentation method. So Athletic I suspect to use

735
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 2: arrested fermentation method, which means that they can they use

736
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 2: a different yeast that ferments slower so they can stop

737
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 2: it at the right point so it doesn't forment anymore.

738
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 2: And then the brands that can get things down to

739
00:38:55,480 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 2: zero zero are because they dealkalize, so they put the

740
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:04,280
Speaker 2: product an alcoholic product through dealkalization through spinning cone technology

741
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 2: to remove the alcohol. A lot of wines are also

742
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 2: done that way. But it's important to know that nothing

743
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,439
Speaker 2: you put in your mouth is alcohol free. Even water

744
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 2: is not point not one.

745
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: So even water is not point not one.

746
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, there'll be things in water what is not one

747
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 2: hundred percent pure that have some natural flementation. You make

748
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,399
Speaker 2: alcohol in your stomach, that's how we process it at all.

749
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 2: So so you know, to get down to zero zero.

750
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 2: You know, some of those alcohol free beers are less

751
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 2: alcohol in than cola, so you know, because even you know,

752
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 2: and a ginger beer can be quite you know, can

753
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 2: probably have zero point five percent alcohol depending on how

754
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 2: it's made. So you know, it's it's just that soft

755
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 2: drinks don't have to say any of that stuff, whereas

756
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 2: alcohol free adult drinks do. So it is a complicated space,

757
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 2: but it's really exciting because there's lots of innovation happening

758
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 2: and also lots of people using you know, functioning greendients

759
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 2: like Ashwa Gander and Lion's made and you know, natural

760
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,280
Speaker 2: sources of caffeine and all of that sort of stuff,

761
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 2: which means that it helps deal with that loss of

762
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 2: verse and you feel when you're giving up drinking or

763
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 2: not drinking tonight, because it's something that does you some

764
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 2: good and you feel like it's giving you a little

765
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,760
Speaker 2: bit of a lift and you're feeling you're getting a treat,

766
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 2: and that's you know, alcohol fits into our reward structure,

767
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,240
Speaker 2: So why shouldn't our alcohol free drinks do as well?

768
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love because it's so just natural for you

769
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: Even you said just now you know, whether you're giving

770
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: up drinking or just not drinking tonight, which is like

771
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: that was just beautiful how it just rolled out. You're

772
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: not even thinking about it. I think like the closer

773
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 1: we can get to not making people give a blood

774
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: oath to never drink ever again, right, Like, it's okay

775
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: to just not be drinking tonight.

776
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. And if I had known that it was okay

777
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 2: not to drink tonight all those years ago, and that

778
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 2: there was a normal, things would be different for me.

779
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 2: So it's not my job to judge other people. It's

780
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 2: up to people to make their own decisions. Yeah. And

781
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 2: you know, if people are just drinking less alcohol overall,

782
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 2: then that's got to be a good thing, right, mm hmmmm.

783
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 2: And then if, like me, you realize that that trying

784
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 2: to moderate doesn't really work, then then giving up is

785
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 2: also an option. The sky doesn't fall in.

786
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 1: That's right, The sky actually, can I say, can get brighter.

787
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,399
Speaker 2: It does apart from in the UK the minute where

788
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:36,879
Speaker 2: it's raining in a bit. We won't talk about the weather.

789
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 1: We won't talk about we won't to talk about the

790
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 1: UK Soweather. This has been amazing. So I'm going to

791
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 1: come around to the last question, which you were like,

792
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: I can answer this right now. I do not even

793
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: need a few minutes to think about this parting words

794
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 1: and they don't have to be in the structure. You

795
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 1: can give us whatever parting words you want to give

796
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,439
Speaker 1: for our listeners. But would love to hear one thing

797
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: you want us to unlearn, undo or come you want

798
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: us to uncover.

799
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 2: I want people to know that drinking isn't compulsory. It

800
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 2: may we're in a society it makes it feel like

801
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 2: it's compulsory, but it's not. And we're often taught that

802
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,800
Speaker 2: if it's something we're not enjoying, that we should drink more.

803
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 2: And so I also want to give people permission to

804
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:20,320
Speaker 2: go home, because staying at things is not compulsory either.

805
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 2: And I think we all need to treat ourselves with

806
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 2: consent and care and realize that we can do things

807
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 2: even if society says that we should stay at things

808
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 2: or we should drink at things, it doesn't have to

809
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 2: be the case. And when you know it's not compulsory,

810
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 2: you can make a lot more positive and empowering decisions

811
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 2: for yourself.

812
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't have to do it. Then, were that

813
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: was amazing?

814
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,360
Speaker 2: Shall I tell you people where they can find us? Singer?

815
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: I was just about I looked at I know and

816
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, and now I'm going to say,

817
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 1: where can people find you? Laura? Please tell our listeners

818
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:54,919
Speaker 1: where they can find you, where they can get their

819
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 1: hands on all of the amazing stuff you're putting out

820
00:42:58,080 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: in the world for us.

821
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's great, isn't it. I do a podcast as well.

822
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 2: It's the question I always forget to ask, which as

823
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 2: well was there? Because I say that there are two

824
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,240
Speaker 2: things that I thought would improve with changing my drinking,

825
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 2: my memory and sleeping with inappropriate people, and neither of

826
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 2: those got better. So it's really upsetting when you find

827
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 2: out it's you all along and it wasn't the alcohol.

828
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 2: I have to say. So people can find us at

829
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,319
Speaker 2: Join Club Soda on all social channels. We're even on

830
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 2: TikTok now, which has been fun. We are also on

831
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 2: joinclubsoda dot com and you can sign up to our

832
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 2: newsletter and we've got a big international following. I talk

833
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 2: a lot with all of the alcohol free shops and

834
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,760
Speaker 2: bars across the world, and so we try and direct

835
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 2: people to those, even if we can't serve them in

836
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 2: the UK. But I cannot tell you how many Americans

837
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 2: we get in the shop. It's just a huge number

838
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 2: because we're in Covent Gardens, So if you're ever in London,

839
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 2: do come and find us in Covent Garden. We're in

840
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 2: Drury Lane. We have loads of events on at the

841
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 2: shop all the time, a lot everything from wine and

842
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,720
Speaker 2: cheese events to all of them. So stuff site awesome.

843
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: I'm planning my trip. I'm so serious.

844
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, come yeah.

845
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming on, Thank you so

846
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: much for tuning in. And if you like this episode,

847
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 1: please check out my book on Addiction, Six mind Changing

848
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 1: Conversations that Could Save a Life, available at Barnes Andnoble,

849
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 1: Bookshop dot Org, Union Squaring Company, Amazon and wherever books

850
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 1: are sold. If you like to this episode, please share

851
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 1: it with someone you think may need to hear it. Also,

852
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: please subscribe to this podcast and leave a five star

853
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 1: review that helps us reach any and everyone who may

854
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 1: be looking for support in the face of addiction.