1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: Body das. But Joseph's gotten more. I'm here to categorically 2 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: tell you that, no, I have never talked to the dead. 3 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: All those years I've spent with the dead, all these 4 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: years i've spent with the dead trying to tell their stories, 5 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: I've never actually spoken with the dead. As a matter 6 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: of fact, If I ever do say that, make sure 7 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: you send the people with the butterfly nets to take 8 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 1: me away, because it ain't real. But I will submit 9 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 1: to you that the dead can speak to us. They 10 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: can speak to us in a way that is actually 11 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: a bit more scientifically based. They tell their stories through 12 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: all that's left behind, all that remains. If you will today, 13 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: I'm going to to tell you the tale of a 14 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: lady who lost her life at the hands of a monster, 15 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: and that monster left behind a message, a message in code, 16 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, a message in his DNA, 17 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: because unfortunately he's no longer around to be held accountable 18 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: for his brutality. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is 19 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: body bags. They say, Dave, that our sins will find 20 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: us out. I've heard that ever since I was a 21 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: little bitty boy. My grandmother used to actually. 22 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 2: Say that to me, nothing is hidden. Well, that's right, 23 00:01:55,200 --> 00:02:00,040 Speaker 2: all shall be revealed. And I can't sit here and 24 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 2: definitively say that AUTHORAM Labs in Woodlands, Texas is an 25 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 2: instrument in the hand of the Almighty. However, I have 26 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 2: been around a lot of other people in my life 27 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 2: that claimed that they were an instrument in the hands 28 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 2: of the Almighty, and I've never seen their fruits. I 29 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,679 Speaker 2: have seen the fruits of authorm and I know what 30 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 2: they're doing. They are providing information to families. And I 31 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 2: got to tell you, wherever there is peace, I have 32 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 2: to think that the Almighty is at work and that's 33 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 2: what they're delivering the families. And boy, today do we 34 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 2: have a tale to tell. 35 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 3: Margaret Enselmo was forty five years old, Joe. She had 36 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 3: two children and she Margaret had a number of issues, 37 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 3: but she loved her kids. They were young adults at 38 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 3: that point. As we're talking about January third, nineteen ninety seven. 39 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 3: By the way, need to be clear on this January third, 40 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety seven, Margaret living in an apartment and she 41 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 3: goes to cash a check and that's the last anyone 42 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 3: knew of her until next her body was found and 43 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 3: I was looking over this, Joe, because Margaret was a 44 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 3: floral designer. She just was going to cash a check. 45 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 3: A delivery driver found her body faced down in a 46 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 3: snowy alley. She had been raped and beaten to death. 47 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 3: Police believed she was the victim of an apparent random 48 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 3: act of violence or cause of death won forced drama 49 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 3: to the head. Now, Joe, just laying out that scenario. 50 00:03:55,080 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 3: Nobody saw what took place, merely finding the victim after 51 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 3: the fact, based down in an alley. It's nineteen ninety seven, 52 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 3: nobody's around. Now we're starting the investigation. 53 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 4: What do you do. 54 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: Well, you try to take as much care as you can. 55 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: I got to tell you if you know when the 56 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: police would have worked this case. First off, you've got 57 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: a place that's let's just face it, you're talking about alleyways. 58 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: With alleyways, you've got locations that are obscured. You're not 59 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: going to have a direct line of sight many times 60 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: from the road. There's various places you can hide out 61 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: down alleyways. And let me give you a little insight 62 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 1: to this because these are sexually related cases. As you know. 63 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 1: You know, I've been to London quite a bit and 64 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: I got to go over into the hunting grounds of 65 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 1: a Jack Ripper and walk through that area. Yeah, And 66 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: I got to tell you, brother, we were there, Kim 67 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: and I were there at night and we were going 68 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: down to a pub that's that's in the same area 69 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: where he operated. And even though there are modern buildings there, 70 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: there are these alleyways that are adjacent that run off 71 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: of this main street. And I got to tell you 72 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 1: it gave me the creeps because you can still to 73 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:32,559 Speaker 1: this day and this is here. This is in twenty 74 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: twenty five. We were just there, all right. I'd never 75 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: been into that area because I've never been like really 76 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 1: into the whole Jack the Ripper thing, but there were 77 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: you know, we were staying down in that area. I thought, Wow, 78 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: this would be a good opportunity to just go check 79 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:50,559 Speaker 1: it out. And it's everything you can imagine, plus more. 80 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: Relative to the alleyways that are there. We actually came 81 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: upon one site that we knew was one where one 82 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: of the prostitutes commonly took her John's and she's found 83 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: dead in that area and it's an alleyway that's very obscured, 84 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 1: and she had been brutalized in that particular location. You 85 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: could literally feel it there because it's still dark. It's 86 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: very narrow. That building in that area still had the 87 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: same facade on it, the worn aged brick. It's not lighted. 88 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: So when the police in the case of Margaret's case, 89 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: all the way back in the mid nineties, when they 90 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: would have gone down there, they would first off, you 91 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: have to ask yourself this question, why is this non 92 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: infirmed lady in an alley found there brutalized? You know 93 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: that this is probably going to be a sexually motivated event, 94 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: and as it turned out, it was, and the brutality 95 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: that went long with her death kind of goes hand 96 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: in hand with the sexual nature of it. You have 97 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: to be very careful. What's really fascinating about this, Dave, 98 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: is that this case is in Spokane, Washington, which is 99 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: completely different than like the Seattle area and everything. There's 100 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: actually snow on the ground here. You don't go to 101 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: Seattle and see snow. And I wonder if there was 102 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: evidence in the snow, because they talk about this prominently 103 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: in this particular case. Were their footprints, was there any 104 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: blood deposition? There was there any evidence that anyone had 105 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: struggled back and forth? Kind of rolling over the surface. 106 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: The thing about working a case in the snow, which 107 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: I've not had that many opportunities over the course of 108 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: my career, because I've spent my career in South I 109 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: have worked a few, is that if you don't document 110 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: that case almost immediately, man, particularly here down in the South, 111 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: you're going to lose bits of evidence along the way 112 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: because as temperature warms up, all that stuff's going to 113 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: melt away. So was there anything there that was deposited 114 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: adjacent to her body that would have provided evidence to 115 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: give an idea as to the dynamics did was she 116 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: drug down down that alleyway? You know, because you can 117 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: actually see and you know you hear about this in 118 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: movies and see it on crime shows. How they people 119 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: will talk about looking for drag marks, Dave, drag marks 120 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: are real thing. Really, Yes, I can sit here and 121 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 1: I can tell you affirmatively that they are. 122 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 4: I've seen the more creative license. 123 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 3: I thought it was to figure out a way that 124 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 3: the detectives can figure something out. And now we've got 125 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 3: this marking, okay, and now so it's real. 126 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 4: That is a thing. 127 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: It is real. And I got to tell you one 128 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: of the most prominent cases over the course of my 129 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: career that I worked involving drag marks was you know, 130 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: down here in the South we have pone forest and 131 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 1: many times these so called pond forests are more like 132 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: I refer to them as pulpwood ponds, these things that 133 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: are planted in a row. And I had a lady 134 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: that had been murdered and raped and murdered out in 135 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: this area, and you could see where she had been 136 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: drug over the bed of pond needles, where she had 137 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: been fighting. There were scuff marks, you know, where she 138 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: had been kicking she was being drugged through this area, 139 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: and also that had transitioned onto her feet as well, 140 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: covered in dirt, you could see that there had in 141 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: fact been a struggle. Now, I'm not saying that a 142 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,959 Speaker 1: pone needle covered surface is the same as a snow 143 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: covered surface, but it is the same principle you're looking 144 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:59,199 Speaker 1: for any kind of evidence here. Here's another thing. If 145 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: you think about a sexual assault and the intimacy of 146 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: this and the violence of it, the perpetrator, not just 147 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: the victim that may have been drug back there or 148 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: were strained back there. The perpetrator is going to leave 149 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: their own impressions behind too. You begin to think about 150 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 1: nobody in Spokane, Washington in the winter time, it's going 151 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: to be walking around barefoot, right, So you're thinking, well, 152 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: were there any footprints at that particular time? Is there 153 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: something that may have been missed along the way that 154 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: would have been very specific? And if there were footprints, 155 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: is it possible that they were just eradicated they were 156 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: not good enough to lift something out of In forensics, 157 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: you do there's a wax casting that you can do. 158 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: And I've never had to do this, but there's a 159 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: wax casting that you do on prints in the snow. 160 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: Isn't that fascinating? 161 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 4: Wow? 162 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: And it's kind of sprayed on into this and you 163 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: can lift this out of the snow, and you have 164 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 1: to work really quickly. It's not like you can kind 165 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: of cut out a block of snow and preserve all 166 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: of the detail from the sole of a shoe and 167 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: you know, kind of freeze it and hang on to it. 168 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: Doesn't work that way. You have to cast it with 169 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: this wax appliance so that you can lift this so 170 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: it's there forever and ever. The problem is is that, 171 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: unlike dirt, snow does not hold onto the same detail 172 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: as dirt does or mud. Okay, so it has to 173 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: be very very carefully handled. Now I'm not saying that 174 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: that's the case. However, the fact that her body approximated snow, 175 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: they talk about it being in the snow. I really 176 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: wonder if there was evidence of that, Dave. 177 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 3: When you're approaching this where she is found in an 178 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 3: alley and you knew that she was walking to cash 179 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 3: a check. Yeah, walking down an alley would not be 180 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,839 Speaker 3: a shortcut, you know, for a professional somebody who is 181 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 3: used to being in an area and going you I'm 182 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 3: guessing or I'm thinking, what if this individual suspect picks 183 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 3: her up somewhere, offers her a drive. It's cold, it's 184 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 3: January third, Hey you need a lift, let me help, 185 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 3: you know, and she accepts it. He damages her elsewhere 186 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 3: and brings her and drops her in the alley. Yeah, 187 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 3: how do you figure that one out? Do you look 188 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 3: for tire tracks? Are you looking for getaway marks? What 189 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 3: if the snow came after you did that? Yeah? 190 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 1: No kidding, So that that is significant. And I can't 191 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: tell you, over the course of my career how many 192 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: times I've literally, I've literally called there was in Atlanta. 193 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 1: When I was working there, I had a relationship with 194 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,319 Speaker 1: a meteorologist at one of the local stations who had 195 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: an interest in crime. Believe it or not, we just 196 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 1: met and anytime I needed anything relative to the weather, 197 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: I would contact this person and they would help me out. 198 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: A lot of it had to do with the rising 199 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: and falling of river levels and lake levels, but I 200 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 1: could also get a sense because they can tune into 201 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: things like environmental temperature very specific to our region, like 202 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: what was the air temperature like at this particular time. 203 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:28,079 Speaker 1: And I had availed myself with their services. So if 204 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: you're talking about snowfall and snow deposition, you'd really begin 205 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: to wonder if when was the last snow that fell, 206 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,719 Speaker 1: when exactly and how much snow was deposited during that 207 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: period of time. And you have to kind of bounce 208 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 1: that off of when she was last seen in life 209 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: making her way to go cash check, and what was 210 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: her normal route? How far away from her point of 211 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: origin was this alleyway was it a location that she 212 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 1: would normally pass? Because here's the thing. If she had 213 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: created kind of a known path where you're walking this 214 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: predictable route every single time We've heard about this before. 215 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: And you're being observed and you draw the eye of somebody, 216 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: some cretan is there watching you, particularly some defenseless woman 217 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: that's just about her business. She might be afraid to 218 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: be in the area in the first place. She's clutching 219 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: her purse. She's trying to get to the location to 220 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: cash this check. There's no telling whose eyes are upon you. 221 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: But this is the case with Margaret. We don't know 222 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: if anybody saw her walking through there. We don't know 223 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: if this monster made visual contact with her, came up 224 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: behind her and attacked her. But he did in fact 225 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: leave a calling card, a calling card that would tell 226 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: Margaret's story afar. From an investigative perspective, Dave, when I 227 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: would go into a case that involved, say, for instance, 228 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: a rape homicide, there was something about those cases that 229 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: was so horrible in the sense that not only had 230 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: somebody been robbed of their life, but there's physical evidence there. 231 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: You can visualize it, okay, of the terror that this 232 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: person probably went through. You see the disheveled clothing. You 233 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: see a shirt and a bra that is many times 234 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: not removed. And this happened more than once in these cases. 235 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: But it's pushed up to expose the breast. You'd be 236 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: surprised how many of those there are out there. You know, 237 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: you think about you see something in media where people 238 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: are ripping clothes. Many times clothes will be pushed up, okay, 239 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: and pulled down. It's not so much a ripping a 240 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: way of clothing. Many times the victim is so terrified 241 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: that they facilitate this. They just they want it to 242 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: be over with. But if you have someone that has 243 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: and I got to tell you in this particular case, Dave, 244 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: given the nature of this, that somebody that is infected 245 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: with a bloodlust like this, they're going to do anything, 246 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: in everything they can to to completely dominate and control. 247 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: And I think that that's what happened in Margaret's case. 248 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: The key here, though, is they're talking about a bludgeoning, 249 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: a beating, if you will. I really wonder if it 250 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: was hands and feet or if there was actually an 251 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: object involved in this, Dave. 252 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 3: Wow, You know, one of the things they did is 253 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 3: pretty standard. There is an SOP for everything, standard operating procedure, 254 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 3: and in this particular case, I looked up what was 255 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 3: traditional in nineteen ninety seven in Spokane Washington, And what 256 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 3: they did was right off the cheat mainly because you 257 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 3: are dealing with a scenario where you have no witnesses, 258 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 3: you have only a finder who is a delivery guy, yeah, 259 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 3: and you have a victim. So you're starting with nothing 260 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 3: except for the body or routine. And well there was 261 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 3: some DNA, yeah, And in nineteen ninety seven traditional STR 262 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 3: DNA profile was developed. Now, what is STR DNA profile. 263 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: Short tandem repeats And so what you're looking at is 264 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 1: that the uh, there's little markers along the strand that 265 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: you're trying to marry up those markers so that they 266 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: tell the story at a molecular level of who this 267 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: person is now depended upon the sourcing of this DNA 268 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: and when they applied str methodology to it. The next 269 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: step and we even had this back then, Dave, is 270 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: they plug it into CODIS, which is the national database. 271 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: And as you well know, because you've covered so many 272 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: of these cases, Dave, the chances that you're going to 273 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 1: get a hit seem to be most of the time 274 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: more less than great. You know, they're because you know, 275 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: what you're looking at with CODIS is that there's two categories. 276 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: And forgive me if I'm being in a dead horse, 277 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: but I have to remind everybody here that you have 278 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: these known individuals that are sex offenders, and then you 279 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 1: have the unknowns, which is traditionally what's referred to as 280 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 1: the forensic database. So if with this str analysis that 281 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: they've run, they're looking into the known. So these are 282 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: people that have been found guilty of some kind of 283 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: sex offense. They're required to give up their dna IS 284 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: to posit it into the system. And back then the 285 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: search was a bit more difficult. Going back all those 286 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: years with cotis, it's not quite as it's more seamless 287 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: now than it was back then, and a lot of 288 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 1: that has to do with advances in technology. But you 289 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: look first in the known database, and the unknown database 290 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: arises from the samples that they've gotten from all these 291 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: other cases like Margaret's case, for instance, where you have 292 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: viable sample, but this person's not in the database. Who 293 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: are you going to match it up with? And so 294 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: all of these years have gone by, Dave, all these 295 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,199 Speaker 1: years have gone by and there was still no match 296 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: or the case had fallen so far down the list, 297 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: because remember we're talking mid nineties, Dave, you think there's 298 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: been other unsolved cold cases that have occurred and Spokene, 299 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,360 Speaker 1: Washington since then, of course there have been. And it's 300 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: really tragic because these cases get stacked one upon another 301 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: and those cases begin to disappear in the rearview mirror. 302 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: And I know that's very sad, you know, but that's 303 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 1: the reality. You can only work so many of these cases. 304 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:50,880 Speaker 3: Everybody has a job, you know, and we all know 305 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 3: you have a certain amount that is expected every day, 306 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 3: and then you have other stuff that piles on top 307 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 3: of that. Yeah, and that's what happens with cases if 308 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:04,439 Speaker 3: you in a case like her, And again Margaret was 309 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 3: not just kicked to the curb. And you know, they 310 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 3: did everything they could. They interviewed everyone in the area 311 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 3: they could find. They they tried every known way of 312 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,919 Speaker 3: accomplishing this, and they didn't give up by just kicking it, 313 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 3: filing it and being done with it. They actually did 314 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 3: keep returning to it to see if they could find anything. 315 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 3: But you know, it doesn't do any good to have 316 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 3: DNA if the person has never had the suspect has 317 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 3: never had their DNA taken in place in the system. 318 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 3: You can have the DNA all day long, but if 319 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 3: they're not in the system. You got nothing to compare 320 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 3: it to and until you do. And that's where the 321 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 3: development of some of the cases we've had recently that 322 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 3: Authorham is doing. It's because they're able to now use 323 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 3: this credible technology. Okay, we don't have that guy, you 324 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 3: know what, we do have something over here we can file, 325 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 3: you know, and they start pulling that DNA strand apart. 326 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 3: In this case, it took until twenty twenty two. 327 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 4: Joe. 328 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 3: Now, one thing I try to do on these cases, 329 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,920 Speaker 3: I look at family members, you know, because I always 330 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 3: wonder what would they be going through not knowing you know, 331 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 3: your mom is dead, you know. I found out a 332 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 3: little bit about her daughter, and her daughter was sad 333 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 3: because she was such a loving, beautiful woman, but she 334 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 3: did have some mental health issues. Yeah, and that is 335 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 3: kind of why she was living in an apartment and 336 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 3: was not living with Now her daughter was nineteen at 337 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 3: the time. Her son was saying, I think eighteen. But 338 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 3: anyway you look at it, she didn't she did not 339 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 3: live a life on the edge. She wasn't a drug user, 340 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 3: she wasn't a party or she wasn't that you know, 341 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 3: she wasn't any of the things that could put somebody 342 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 3: at risk. 343 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 4: This is a florist. 344 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 3: She's lined floral arrangements for crying out loud, for weddings 345 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 3: and funerals. Think about that for just a minute. And 346 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 3: when they couldn't solve it, they kept coming back to it. 347 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 3: They kept trying to and finally it took years, but 348 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 3: finally they were able to. 349 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 4: Submit to author them. 350 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 3: And you know, that's that's an undertaking in and of itself, 351 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 3: because you submit what you have and they start working 352 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 3: on it, and they come up with a few ideas, 353 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 3: and you know, and they send it back to you 354 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 3: and now the police are working it again and they 355 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 3: find they tie some more things together, they send that 356 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 3: back and each time it's a couple of months in between. 357 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 3: It's not like they called Joe and say, hey, Joe, 358 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,360 Speaker 3: don't you got any DNA there we can run and 359 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 3: you send it to him and then a week later 360 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 3: they go, yeah, we found this murder from thirty years ago. 361 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 3: Here you go, we're talking to It's a year's long process, yeah, 362 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 3: and it's a lot of continually working the just working 363 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 3: to unfold this entire or a gami, you know, of evidence. 364 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: A great way to put it. It is very complex, 365 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: you know, and it's not just with Authorm. It's not 366 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,919 Speaker 1: just the DNA scientist. And I know I've told you 367 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 1: this before because we talk about these cases with some frequency. 368 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: But when you walk into this the only way I 369 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: can really describe it for those that have not seen 370 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: images of Authorm, it's like walking into some futuristic lab. 371 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,159 Speaker 1: You feel like you're on some kind of starship somewhere. 372 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: But it's not just the people behind those those glass 373 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: walls where you can see through and you can see 374 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 1: what they're doing. It's the other side of the house too, 375 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: where these people are literally trying to fashion family trees, 376 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: which is intellectually it's also a huge puzzle to put 377 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: these things together, to try to understand the genealogy. And 378 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 1: that's you know, what eventually leads leads back to whoever 379 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: this might be, or at least a close relative. 380 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,120 Speaker 4: It was a relative, that's the thing. 381 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 3: They were able to identify somebody who is a relative 382 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 3: of that suspect you have over that unknown subject over here. Yeah, 383 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 3: well we found somebody that person is related to. 384 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 4: And Joe, I think that's just I think about. 385 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 3: That, and I think that that goes beyond the scope 386 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 3: of what my head is capable of handling. That you 387 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 3: haven't identified the suspect, but you identified this person over 388 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 3: here that is so far away from him or her, 389 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 3: you know, they don't even know each other. 390 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 1: Maybe I heard something. I read it the other day, 391 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:46,360 Speaker 1: and I wanted to share this with you, Dave, because 392 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: it kind of it kind of dovetails with the conversation 393 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: we're having right now about because you said unknown, and 394 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 1: it brought it to mind again for me, and let 395 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: this kind of seep in here, this discussion, having this 396 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: item that I had read said that the days, the 397 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:15,479 Speaker 1: days of the tomb of the unknown soldier are going 398 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: to be passing us by. Just imagine that, just for 399 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:24,719 Speaker 1: a second, that that's the power of this technology. Uh. 400 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: You know, people that have fallen in battle and you 401 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: can you know, you can go to graveyards. You know, 402 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 1: we have them all over the South where you have, say, 403 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 1: Civil War graveyards. You can walk through them and they'll 404 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: be these headstones and it'll say things like, you know, 405 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: like it says on I think at the tomb in 406 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: Arlington it says known only to God, or it'll say unknown. 407 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 1: This technology is now at a point nowadave, where those 408 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: days are going to be passing us by very quickly. 409 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:05,159 Speaker 1: I mean just think about you know, because you know, 410 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: sometime back, you know, we talked about the King and 411 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: the car park with Richard the third and dude, he 412 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 1: was killed in battle before Columbus discovered America, all right 413 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: before fourteen ninety two. He was back in the thirteen hundreds. 414 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: They got him identified through one of his descendants. Okay, 415 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 1: that's the world that we're living in now, and that's 416 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 1: what makes this tool that we have at our disposal, 417 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: and that that that authorm has facilitated, you know, and 418 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: you go back to what David Milman has said about, 419 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: you know, the Nameless List, those thousands and thousands of 420 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 1: people that are on this thing, and they are all 421 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: individual people. His goal is to clear that list out 422 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: one by one. I don't care how long it takes. 423 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:09,160 Speaker 1: That's what his goal is. And for Margaret's case, her 424 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: case all the way back all these years ago there 425 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: in Spokane, down in that dirty little alley, it seemed 426 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: to come to an end then, but you know what, 427 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 1: her story continued with the end of the life of 428 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: her perpetrator. I don't know if you and I have 429 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: had this discussion before, however, I will repeat it. Okay, 430 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: did you know I've investigated more suicides in my career 431 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: than I have homicides? 432 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 4: Wow? No, you haven't told me that. 433 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, they outpaced homicides, wow, three to one, two to one. 434 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: Depend upon the jurisiiction. You just don't hear about them 435 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: unless it's like Robin Williams, all right, unless the media 436 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: actually says this person is important. I hate that. Yeah, 437 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: and we're going to name who it is. You know, 438 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: because if you go to the newspaper, I say, newspaper. 439 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, news resources, Thank. 440 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: You very much. I don't remember the last time I 441 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: went to a paper box and drop coins in it. 442 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: And I don't even know if they have those anymore. 443 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 4: They have them right next to the pay phones. 444 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: You know, there was a certain amount of joy that 445 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 1: I would derive from that, though, from actually getting the 446 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: newspaper and physically holding it. 447 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 3: Getting your cigarettes from the machine avenue, yeah. 448 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, they're out of Marlborough's. 449 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 3: Uh. 450 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: But you know, you know, you know, you go to 451 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: the o bits in the you know, in the newspaper, 452 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: and it'll get somebody's age there. It'll say, you know 453 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: John Jones twenty nine dot suddenly right, And so that's 454 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: really all you ever, you know, know about a suicide 455 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: unless you're associated with a family. 456 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, and if the family wants you to know, unless 457 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 3: if the family wants you to know. Oftentimes now they 458 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 3: are sharing things thankfully about mental health and there are 459 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 3: warnings about it because you know it. You know, Joe, 460 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 3: I didn't put two and two together. I did not realize. 461 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 3: I didn't realize a lot about homicides versus suicides until 462 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 3: I started noticing how when you mentioned suicide, you know, 463 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 3: it's this is a big deal to talk about because 464 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 3: so many people feel like you got it. Look, man, 465 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 3: you're taking a permanent is that you're making a permanent 466 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 3: decision for a very temporary problem. 467 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, so don't please. 468 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that that's something that you know, we deal 469 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: with all the time in my field where we go 470 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: out and we don't but we you know, again, you know, 471 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: drifting back putting my forensic hat on. We work all 472 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: of those suicides because it is a violent death. We 473 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: work them all as if they're homicides until we can 474 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: prove otherwise. And so we're very careful about that because 475 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: you have to be get one shot out, buddy. But 476 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: how it's weird. It almost seems like and I'd really 477 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: like to know the attitude of the police, because it's 478 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: like they've got in one hand, they've got this case, 479 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: Margaret's case that has just been lingering on the books 480 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: for all of these years, and they're hoping against hope, 481 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: they're going back checking it periodically. There's other cases coming 482 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: in and finally they do have a ray of hope 483 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: relative to identifying identifying who this person was that perpetrated 484 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: this rape homicide. And can you imagine I wonder if 485 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: they felt. I wonder if when they made the idea, 486 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: if they were deflated, Dave over the fact that this 487 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: person could not, at least in this world, could not 488 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: be held accountable for what he had perpetrated against Margaret 489 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: and her family. 490 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 3: They were able to using the DNA that was taken 491 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 3: from from Margaret when her body was discovered in that alley, 492 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 3: and even though it took many, many years, they were 493 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 3: able to finally determine that that DNA came from Brian 494 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 3: James Anderson. Brian Anderson, he was twenty years old when 495 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 3: he committed this crime. This murder, this rape, this horrible, 496 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 3: vicious assault. He's a twenty year old man. He's beating 497 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 3: up a forty five year old woman and raping her 498 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 3: and leaving her like trash in an alleyway. And after 499 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 3: they figured out who he was and out he was 500 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 3: born April twenty ninth, nineteen seventy six and died by 501 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:17,959 Speaker 3: suicide July eighth, two thousand and nine. I cannot imagine 502 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 3: what the investigators felt, because they solved it, and they 503 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 3: said in their announcement, Joe, they said, if he were alive, 504 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 3: we have the evidence to charge him with this and 505 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 3: get a conviction. That's the one thing. It wasn't just 506 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 3: this DNA. They had other evidence to go along with 507 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 3: it that all matched up once they identified. 508 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: Him, right, and so the you know, investigatively many times 509 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: the clouds began to part right, you know, you see, 510 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 1: because then you you know that big blank that you 511 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: have in your brain when you're trying to figure out 512 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: a puzzle and you get one piece of the puzzle 513 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, everything else there's clarity 514 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: at it. Right, It's like, oh my god, I believe 515 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 1: I missed this, And now you know, almost like a spiderweb. 516 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: You see all of the connectivity that runs through it. 517 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 3: They did say, I wanted to be clear on that Joe. 518 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 3: The Spokane Police farm is that if he were still alive, 519 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 3: they would seek to charge him with first degree murder 520 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 3: and first degree. 521 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 1: Rate Yeah, which for those of you that don't know, 522 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: anytime you hear that term first degree, it means a 523 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: couple of things, and many jurisdictions, that means that they 524 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 1: are aggravating circumstances. Like I'll give you, for instance, if 525 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 1: you if you commit an armed robbery, for instance, and 526 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: you happen to kill somebody in the commission of an 527 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: armed robbery, that's an aggravating circumstance, and that can be 528 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: first degree homicide. You go to some states and they 529 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: don't they don't have the degrees like this, Like you 530 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: go to Georgia and they'll call it malice murder. And 531 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: I still have a hard time kind of wrapping my 532 00:34:56,080 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 1: brain around that statute. But in Louisiana, where I learned 533 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:06,320 Speaker 1: criminal law as an undergraduate, you know, first degree murder 534 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 1: and it's murder there. You know that's a death penalty case, 535 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,839 Speaker 1: and there's certain aggravating circumstances, you know that make it 536 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 1: that way, Like if you kill somebody under twelve, or 537 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: you kill actually kill a school teacher or a firefighter 538 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 1: or a police officer while they're working, that's first degree homicide, 539 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: commission of an arm, robbery, commission of a rape, all 540 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,839 Speaker 1: those sorts of things. So I'm thinking that that's those 541 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: two things go hand in hand with this case, where 542 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 1: you know, the circumstances were so over the top that 543 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,919 Speaker 1: if they had had a chance to drag him into 544 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 1: a courtroom, there's a there's a good possibility they would 545 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 1: have gotten a convictional this guy, because Dave Brother, when 546 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,880 Speaker 1: when it comes to DNA, you cannot fight these numbers. 547 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: The only thing you can fight, and here's the way 548 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: I look at it. The only the only anything that 549 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: the defense can put up relative to a defense against 550 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: the utility of DNA and court is procedurally, how was 551 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,919 Speaker 1: it collected, how was it protected, how was it analyzed? 552 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: Because if you followed the recipe that you're supposed to 553 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 1: follow every single time you get one of these samples, 554 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 1: and you treat it as if it's the most fragile 555 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: thing in the world, which, by the way, kind of is, 556 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,760 Speaker 1: and you follow through with all of the steps prescribed 557 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 1: by law, then you've got a winner on your hands. 558 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: You know, when you start to get up into these 559 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:43,399 Speaker 1: astronomical numbers that go back to a specific identity, it's 560 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,879 Speaker 1: something that people won't soon forget. I think that's that's 561 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: why DNA, in particular, it has two utilities. First off, 562 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 1: a lot of these cases, it's not just about convicting people, Dave, 563 00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 1: it's about people that have been wrongly convicted. Okay, where 564 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 1: you can take it, and the cops were looking in 565 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 1: a completely different direction, or there was some kind of 566 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,359 Speaker 1: mouthfeasance where they convince somebody to admit to something they 567 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: haven't done, and they go back and examine the DNA, 568 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: which is you know, it's pretty amazing when you think 569 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: about it. But here's one more bit to this case 570 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: that I found absolutely fascinating. Did you know, Dave, that 571 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:29,760 Speaker 1: that this case, this case is the forty first case 572 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,400 Speaker 1: that the state of Washington has utilized the services of 573 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 1: authorm and they've gotten off the books. 574 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 4: Wow. 575 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: So I don't know, I don't know who's been listening 576 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 1: to the gospel of Authorm up in Washington, but I 577 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: think you've got a bunch of true believers up there. 578 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 1: They see the utility of what can happen. What can 579 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: happen when you take this evidence and you apply it 580 00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 1: and use it for the good that it serves. It's 581 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: quite amazing that all of these cold cases that they 582 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: have up there, whether they were unidentified bodies or unidentified 583 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,319 Speaker 1: perpetrators that had committed some kind of painous act, they've 584 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:12,319 Speaker 1: they're off the books now. 585 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,879 Speaker 4: Man love it. It's one of the most amazing things. 586 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 3: And as we try to point on every time, AUTHORM 587 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 3: is not funded by the government, they don't have a 588 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 3: money tree out in the backyard. They actually have to 589 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 3: crowdfund to begin a lot of the projects that they're 590 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 3: working on. A lot of it comes like even from 591 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 3: a police department when they submit DNA, there has to 592 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:37,720 Speaker 3: be money. They have to have seventy five hundred dollars 593 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,239 Speaker 3: to begin, and I'm an honest Joe, that's not very 594 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 3: much money when you look at what they're doing. And 595 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,839 Speaker 3: it's one of those things where if you want to 596 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 3: get involved, you can. You actually can take part in this. 597 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,359 Speaker 3: And it might not be your family. You might not 598 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 3: have anything in your family that well, what if you 599 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 3: knew somebody that had a death of a loved one 600 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,840 Speaker 3: and there was never anyone held responsible. You know, you 601 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 3: could actually be a part of finding that solution for 602 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 3: somebody else. 603 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:13,279 Speaker 1: Yes, you absolutely could. And here's what I suggest. If 604 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 1: you go to dnasolves dot com, you can look through 605 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 1: the cases that are right now pending that they need 606 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,760 Speaker 1: that one little push to get them over the hump 607 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,359 Speaker 1: in order to begin the wheels rolling, if you will, 608 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 1: to flip the switch is This is the perspective I 609 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 1: ask you to at least consider. You know, we always 610 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,480 Speaker 1: talk about the people nowadays like to throw around the 611 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 1: term family and community. And if you live in a 612 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:49,359 Speaker 1: specific geographic location in the US, or maybe that's your 613 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: point of origin, someplace that was your old hometown, go 614 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:58,320 Speaker 1: through there and find something that catches your interest. Maybe 615 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 1: you never know, you might have had some kind of 616 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: connection to somebody that is missing. There's unidentified remains in 617 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,479 Speaker 1: your old hometown or somewhere in the state that you love. 618 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,319 Speaker 1: If you want to send money that way, send it 619 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,040 Speaker 1: that way. And all you have to do is go 620 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 1: to dnasolves dot com, look through the cases and you 621 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,400 Speaker 1: can give as much or as little as you wish. 622 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,839 Speaker 1: But listen, there is in fact a need. People are 623 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:30,399 Speaker 1: banging on all the time about how much they wish 624 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 1: they could be a detective. While I'm not saying you're 625 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 1: going to get a gold badge, however, I can tell 626 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 1: you this by contribution that you might make to Authorm, 627 00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: you're doing more than a lot of people have ever 628 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 1: done that were in fact so called investigators. I'm Joseph 629 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, and this is body Bags