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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: its affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. It's Tuesday, June tenth, and

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Speaker 2: Karen Reid's defense team calls their final witness. We are

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Speaker 2: approaching the end, and we're also going to be joined

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Speaker 2: today by award winning author Robert rand to talk to

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Speaker 2: us about all things the Menandaz Brothers. Then another body

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Speaker 2: found in Massachusetts. It's reigniting a huge fear in the

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Speaker 2: area that there might be a serial killer on the loose.

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Speaker 2: And later we're going to have a special guest of

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Speaker 2: the show, Brian natt Miller, and he's going to talk

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Speaker 2: to us all about a very scary cult called the

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Speaker 2: Sissian Cult. So all that and more stay with us.

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Speaker 2: We're so happy here. I'm Stephanie Leidecker. I head up

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Speaker 2: KT Studios where we make open investigation true crime documentaries

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Speaker 2: and podcasts and the best part is I get to

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Speaker 2: do it every day with producer and host Courtney Armstrong

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Speaker 2: and producer and analyst.

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Speaker 3: Ore, body move in. So, ladies, we made it to Tuesday.

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Speaker 4: We did.

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Speaker 3: We're here in one piece.

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Speaker 2: We are here in one piece, and there's so much

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Speaker 2: to talk about today. I don't even know that we'll

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Speaker 2: get it all in. And just as a quick reminder,

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Speaker 2: we're here Sunday through Thursday, two hours live. So again,

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Speaker 2: tune in anytime and if you miss any of the show,

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Speaker 2: you can always catch it right after as a podcast.

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Speaker 3: So, Boddy, where we made Karen Reid? Right?

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Speaker 5: I mean, obviously that's going to be the top of

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Speaker 5: what we're talking about today. Today was day thirty and

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Speaker 5: the testimony is expected to end tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: How is that possible? So tomorrow is today? Tomorrow? Well,

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Speaker 3: they're expecting.

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Speaker 5: I can't imagine that this last witness will go any

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Speaker 5: further than tomorrow, but it's supposed to be end. You know.

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Speaker 5: We learned also Karen is not taking the stand. I

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Speaker 5: thought that was super big news. Listen, she speaks for herself.

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Speaker 5: She should, right, She did speak in her documentary. If

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Speaker 5: you haven't seen that on Discovery Idea, it's very interesting

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Speaker 5: because it really does track her experience during the first trial.

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Speaker 5: So maybe that's her testimony there.

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Speaker 4: She literally said, quote doing this film is my testimony

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Speaker 4: in reference to the docuseries A Body in the Snow

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Speaker 4: Trial of Karen Reid.

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Speaker 3: And I'm shaking my head and rolling my eyes. Is

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Speaker 3: that so?

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Speaker 5: Why because you don't get cross examined in a documentary?

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Speaker 3: Thank you? That's true?

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Speaker 5: Right. The reason, the reason people, the reason people don't

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Speaker 5: testify usually on their own behalf, is because of that

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Speaker 5: cross Right, you're opening yourself up to the basically the

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Speaker 5: state to be questioned, and you're under oath and you

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Speaker 5: have to tell the truth supposedly allegedly, allegedly allegedly right.

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Speaker 5: And Karen Reid was able to have this documentary not

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Speaker 5: really ask her any of the tough questions that the

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Speaker 5: state would ask her.

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Speaker 4: That's a fair point of a documentaries and not having crossed,

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Speaker 4: that's obviously a fair point. But it's also important to

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Speaker 4: remember in this in every trial, whether a defendant takes

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Speaker 4: the stand or not is really not supposed to be

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Speaker 4: used for someone to say, oh, they didn't take the stand,

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Speaker 4: they must be guilty.

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Speaker 5: Well, it's really worth right that they do. Right, Like,

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Speaker 5: you don't really see it that often at all.

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Speaker 3: Well, at we risk.

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Speaker 2: Management, so you could get to a certain point and

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, they're a wild card and they're emotional,

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Speaker 2: and they've witnessed so much testimony that they either do

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Speaker 2: or do not agree with. Yeah, you might have a

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Speaker 2: hot wire on your hand, and in the eleventh hour

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Speaker 2: they say just the wrong thing and the trial is lost.

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Speaker 2: She seems very well spoken, though maybe that would help.

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Speaker 5: I don't know, well, and I don't think that Dury

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Speaker 5: is gonna like dislike her.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 5: We kind of talk about how sometimes like she she

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Speaker 5: looks kind of like an ice queen, you know. But

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Speaker 5: I think that's just a very Bostonian thing, right, I

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Speaker 5: think so too.

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Speaker 3: I actually I liked the documentary so much. I did too.

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Speaker 6: I liked it.

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Speaker 2: It was exciting to be like in the car with

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Speaker 2: her going to this harrowing trial. Whether we agree with

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Speaker 2: her or not, we could all agree that must be

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Speaker 2: very stressful and sort of being in that mode the

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Speaker 2: entire time.

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Speaker 3: It gave me some empathy for her. I thought it

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Speaker 3: sort of.

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Speaker 2: I mean, frankly, I guess that's the intention, right, But

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Speaker 2: it did show her in a light that I thought

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Speaker 2: made her very human. Again, this has not changed the

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Speaker 2: fact that John O'Keefe. The victim has lost his life

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Speaker 2: and his family suffers.

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Speaker 3: DP.

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Speaker 2: It's very evident, even just based on his mother's testimony.

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Speaker 2: But man, is this divisive. I can't believe we're in

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Speaker 2: the final stretch of it.

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Speaker 5: Right, And the judge said that we could have the

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Speaker 5: jury could have this by Friday or Monday. But then

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Speaker 5: the prosecutor said likely Friday. So the judge is the

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Speaker 5: judge and the prosecutor both kind of agree. You know,

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Speaker 5: this could be in the jury's hands by Friday. You know,

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Speaker 5: so testimony will probably wrap up tomorrow and then maybe

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Speaker 5: paperwork and whatnot Thursday. Well, what about closing, Well, closing

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Speaker 5: will probably happen Thursday. I forgot about that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's uh, closing. I mean it's a big one.

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Speaker 2: Kind of sums the whole thing up, right, that's the

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Speaker 2: boat on the package.

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Speaker 5: I assume, yeah, you're you're absolutely right. Well, today we

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Speaker 5: heard from Elizabeth Lapasoda. She's a forensic pathologist, and she

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Speaker 5: said she believes O'Keefe died from blunt force trauma after

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Speaker 5: falling backwards and hitting his head on a hard surface

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Speaker 5: like stairs or a floor. She believes some of the

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Speaker 5: injuries on his arm could be from a dog bite.

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Speaker 3: That's interesting.

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Speaker 7: She was.

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Speaker 2: No joke on the stand too. It was hard to

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Speaker 2: not believe her in my opinion. Right, she was pretty

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Speaker 2: steadfast on what was and wasn't and she was pretty

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Speaker 2: clear that it wasn't a car that hit him, right.

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Speaker 5: And she's the former medical examiner for a Rhode Island

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Speaker 5: so she's pretty accredited, right, She's pretty accredited. And then

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Speaker 5: we heard from this is the last witness, the last

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Speaker 5: one that's being called, Andrew Wrenchler. And Andrew is an

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Speaker 5: accident rec instructionists and biomechanist. I don't even know what

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Speaker 5: that is. Very smart, very smart, that's all I know.

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Speaker 5: They're very smart. And he testified that O'Keefe's head and

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Speaker 5: arm injuries are not consistent with being struck by a

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Speaker 5: backing SUV.

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Speaker 3: That's very interesting.

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Speaker 5: But you know, he had like a PowerPoint that the

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Speaker 5: judge wanted like some notes removed from and I don't

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Speaker 5: that was a last I kind of saw of the trial.

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Speaker 5: So I'm not sure what ended up happening with their

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Speaker 5: But Andrew is expected to be the defense's last witness,

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Speaker 5: so we won't hear from anyone else.

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Speaker 4: Wow, yeah, more to come. So what did you guys

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Speaker 4: think of ending on him for the last witness on

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Speaker 4: Andrew Wrenschler.

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Speaker 2: It didn't I question, bang, big bang ending. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: heard the prosecution side. I would put Mom, you know,

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Speaker 2: John O'Keeffe's beloved mother, who you know, really sets the

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Speaker 2: stage for the feelings of it all.

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Speaker 3: And just what a loss to me.

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Speaker 2: If I'm the defense, no, no, if I'm the prosecution,

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Speaker 2: forgive me, I'm putting Mom on the stand in the

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Speaker 2: eleventh hour last thing. I thought it was like a

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Speaker 2: little not big finish.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, but you know, speaking of mom, this is kind

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Speaker 5: of an interesting tidbit. They showed some like particularly gruesome

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Speaker 5: photos today in the hearing and in the past his mom, Peggy,

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Speaker 5: John O'Keefe's mom, the victim in this case that often

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Speaker 5: gets overshadowed. She usually leaves the room, but today she

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Speaker 5: stayed in the room. She kind of just hang her

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Speaker 5: She hung her head down, and I thought that was

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Speaker 5: worth noting that she she was in the front row

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Speaker 5: and she was kind of hanging her head down. And

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Speaker 5: I'm not sure I didn't catch if she like looked

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Speaker 5: up at all to look at the photos, but she did.

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Speaker 3: Stay in the room this time. I thought that was interesting.

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Speaker 2: And she's very anti Karen, right, so you know she's

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Speaker 2: been I mean, obviously she's grieving. It seems like their

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Speaker 2: relationship was far from ect but also not here nor there.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you know what, there didn't seem to be a

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Speaker 2: super contentious backstory to the both of them, but it

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Speaker 2: certainly is now. And you know, again, she's grieving so

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Speaker 2: deeply if there's the same question.

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Speaker 5: So as a reminder, the defense is arguing that John

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Speaker 5: O'Keeffe's death was a cover up, like there's this big

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Speaker 5: conspiracy going on, and that John O'Keefe was killed inside

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Speaker 5: that house by his like cop buddies and then staged

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Speaker 5: to sort of frame Karen Reid, and that she backed up.

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Speaker 3: She did not back up and hit him with her car.

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Speaker 3: You know, they broke the tail light.

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Speaker 5: They did all this stuff to kind of cover their butts, right,

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Speaker 5: That's basically the argument, and there is support for this.

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Speaker 5: Now again, this is all the defense's strategy. They say

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Speaker 5: the tail light damage on her SUV does not match

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Speaker 5: the trauma to John O'Keeffe's body, which you know, the

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Speaker 5: supporting witnesses testified today that's true. That's according to the defense.

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Speaker 5: The Commonwealth says otherwise, right. They also say that the

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Speaker 5: cuts on John O'Keeffe's arm are more insistent with being

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Speaker 5: bit by a dog, not scraped by a broken tail light,

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Speaker 5: and they also say the timeline is off. The prosecutors

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Speaker 5: say that Karen Reid dropped him off at approximately like

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Speaker 5: twelve thirty and accidentally hit him while backing up. Well

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Speaker 5: Read's SUV black box showed a backup of twenty four

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Speaker 5: miles per hour at twelve thirty, which is interesting. The

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Speaker 5: defense is arguing that there wasn't enough time for her

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Speaker 5: to hit him and drive away all in one minute,

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Speaker 5: so they're saying the timing is off. I'm saying, what

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Speaker 5: do you think of that?

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Speaker 2: As our analysts, like, I feel like I know this

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Speaker 2: info so well, what does that mean to me?

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Speaker 5: It shows me that she's guilty, and I you know,

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Speaker 5: I believe she's guilty, But I will say that the

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Speaker 5: investigation was so shoddy and terribly done that I don't

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Speaker 5: know that the Commonwealth is going to be able to

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Speaker 5: prove that beyond a reasonable doubt.

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Speaker 2: Right, Like, even if that happened, just the shady shenanigans.

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Speaker 2: You know that clearly went on because we're seeing these

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Speaker 2: text messages within law enforcement. John o'keef, the victim, as

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Speaker 2: we've talked about before, was you know, he was a

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Speaker 2: part of the Canton police and it was it's a

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Speaker 2: big job and that you know air quotes brotherhood is real.

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Speaker 3: His buddies.

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Speaker 2: They were all members of either the you know ATF

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Speaker 2: or of you know, the local police with him or

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Speaker 2: retired like this was his crew. So either they framed

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Speaker 2: Karen Reid or they wanted to pile a lawn to

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Speaker 2: Karen Reid. I don't think it's it's ass able to

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Speaker 2: dispute the fact that there wasn't some shenanigans and I

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Speaker 2: hate to see.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 5: The other thing too, is that the defense has pointed

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Speaker 5: out missing or white data from phones with the people

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Speaker 5: inside the house that night.

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Speaker 2: Well everybody, the cops, they all were like, oh our

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Speaker 2: phone went dead. Oh my goodness, did I delete all

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Speaker 2: of those tags?

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Speaker 3: That is fishy.

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Speaker 4: I will say, it's very fish It's so far past

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Speaker 4: fishy dog and I know, weird the dog and the

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Speaker 4: dog is gone. And the forensic pathologist says that he

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Speaker 4: had to have hit a hard surface like stairs or

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Speaker 4: a floor. You know, I don't contend that anything intentional

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Speaker 4: happened to end John O'Keeffe's life.

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Speaker 3: That is my thought. You think it was like an

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Speaker 3: accident inside, I.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely do think it was like they're too day, like panic,

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Speaker 4: they're drunk, You fall back and then you have to

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Speaker 4: you know, cover up and assess they're police officers.

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Speaker 3: This is not a good look.

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Speaker 2: Everyone's partying, drinking and driving by that is the takeaway.

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Speaker 2: There amount of alcohol and driving in a blizzard, regardless

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Speaker 2: off your law enforcement and otherwise, that could have been

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Speaker 2: a very different night had those traces been different.

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Speaker 3: I'm not grand stating.

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Speaker 4: We'll be staying with this through the end of the trial. Later,

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Speaker 4: award winning journalist Robert rand is joining us to talk

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Speaker 4: all things Menendez Brothers and a body was found last

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Speaker 4: week in Massachusetts, reigniting fear of a possible serial killer

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Speaker 4: in the Northeast. Keep it here on True Crime tonight.

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Speaker 3: We have a very special guest.

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Speaker 2: It's just literally the man that wrote the book about

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Speaker 2: the Menendez brothers. So we have some very insight sourcing

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Speaker 2: here because he was the guy that actually received the

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Speaker 2: letter or knows about the letter between one of the

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Speaker 2: Menendez brothers and his cousin that really has shaped this

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Speaker 2: entire resentencing hearing and all of the things about the

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Speaker 2: Menendez Real Times Courtney, Where should we begin with the

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Speaker 2: Menendez brothers.

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Speaker 4: Well, let's start with the headline that just happened, and

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Speaker 4: it happened on a legislative level. On Sunday, it was

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Speaker 4: reported that California Senate Minority leader, it's a guy named

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Speaker 4: Brian Jones, that he's warning that public interest in the

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Speaker 4: Menendez brother case menandaz brother's case is fueling support for

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Speaker 4: a bill that could lead to the early release of

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Speaker 4: thousands of convicted murderers. So what this bill does do

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Speaker 4: is allow people who canmitted serious crimes before they turned

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Speaker 4: twenty six years old ask for a new sentencing after

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Speaker 4: serving fifteen years. And I gotta be honest, I mean,

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Speaker 4: I oh, okay, body, you're making a face. Yeah, listen.

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Speaker 4: The brain does it continues developing through your mid to

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Speaker 4: late twenties, specifically especially men, and the prefrontal cortex, which

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Speaker 4: controls judgment and planning.

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Speaker 2: So in consequences right and co gas on what happens

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Speaker 2: when that's right?

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Speaker 4: So this bill, Jones claims that the bill kind of

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Speaker 4: came back when the public interest in the Menendez brothers

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Speaker 4: were surfaced. So that's his.

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Speaker 5: Contention with it, and it's a I think that's a

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Speaker 5: reasonable concern, you know, but I'm just not sure how

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Speaker 5: I feel about it yet.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Fair And for anyone who's not super familiar. Back

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Speaker 4: in nineteen eighty nine, brothers Lyle and Eric Menendez were

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Speaker 4: convicted of murdering their parents, who were wealthy and high profile,

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Speaker 4: particularly father Jose Menendez, and also their mother, Kitty Menendez,

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Speaker 4: was also murdered. The brothers shot their parents in Beverly Hills,

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Speaker 4: and the defense claimed that it was it happened after

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Speaker 4: years of sexual and emotional abuse by their father.

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Speaker 2: And that's it's a tough one, right because listen, we

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Speaker 2: have the guy, right, we have the person who literally

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Speaker 2: wrote the book. So joining us is going to be

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Speaker 2: guest Robert rand And you know, he wrote the award

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Speaker 2: winning book that really covered the Menendez case from right

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Speaker 2: after the murders. Literally he was there one day after

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Speaker 2: those murders in nineteen eighty nine, and he covered it

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Speaker 2: as a journalist the entire time. And he really has

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Speaker 2: been visiting them as well and is following it so

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Speaker 2: closely to this day. So we have a guy I

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Speaker 2: I you know, let's bring him in and you know,

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Speaker 2: ask away. And again, if anybody wants to join the conversation,

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Speaker 2: just call us eight eight eight three to one crime Robert,

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Speaker 2: can you hear us?

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Speaker 7: I can hear you, lot and clear.

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Speaker 3: Welcome. We're so happy to have.

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Speaker 7: You, thank you, and it's good to be here.

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Speaker 3: Listen.

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Speaker 2: We're so happy to have you number one, because you really,

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Speaker 2: your information has kind of cracked this case open and

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Speaker 2: really has led to part of this resentencing conversation for

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Speaker 2: the Menendez brothers because of two things, right, the he

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Speaker 2: you know, the claim now from the Menudo band member.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if any of our listeners remember the

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Speaker 2: Menudo Brothers or Menudo the band. You know, one of

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Speaker 2: those band members has also filed a claim against Jose

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Speaker 2: Menendez under the same circumstances of you know, sexual abuse.

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Speaker 2: And then additionally a letter written that really does claim

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Speaker 2: that you know, this abuse was documented long long ago,

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Speaker 2: which has really shaped the opinion of really all of

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Speaker 2: America in terms of sentencing for the Menandez brothers.

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Speaker 7: Well back in twenty eighteen, I was on deadline from

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Speaker 7: my original Menndos book release, and I was visiting the

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Speaker 7: brother's aunt, Mark Kenno, in West Palm Beach, Florida, and

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Speaker 7: she let me go through the room of her son,

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Speaker 7: who sadly passed away from an accidental swedging Hill overdose

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Speaker 7: in two thousand and three. And his name was Andy Canoe.

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Speaker 7: He was very close to Eric Menendus. They exchanged a

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Speaker 7: lot of letters, they had a lot of phone calls,

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Speaker 7: and Andy was actually a key witness at the first

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Speaker 7: Monendous trial in the summer of ninety nineteen ninety three,

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Speaker 7: and he testified that Eric had told him about the

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Speaker 7: molestation when Eric was twelve and Andy was ten, but

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Speaker 7: he Andy immediately wanted to go to his mother. He

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Speaker 7: really was having a difficult time processing the information as

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Speaker 7: a ten year old, and Eric made him swear on

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Speaker 7: a pinkey promised that he would never reveal to anybody

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Speaker 7: what Eric had told him. And that is typical of

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Speaker 7: station survivors sexual abuse survivors that their abuser threatens them

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Speaker 7: if you tell anybody, I will kill you. And so

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Speaker 7: this letter was so I started going through the room

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Speaker 7: of Andy Cano that had been untouched since he passed

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Speaker 7: away fifteen years earlier, and within fifteen minutes I found

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Speaker 7: opened a door full of papers, and I found this

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Speaker 7: letter from Eric Menande's that he had written to his

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Speaker 7: cousin Andy in late nineteen eighty eight, about nine months

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Speaker 7: before the killing them Jose and kady Banandos and in

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Speaker 7: a letter. Most of it was just kind of like

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Speaker 7: a routine letter between two teenagers, but at one point

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Speaker 7: in the letter, Eric complains about the ongoing sexual abuse

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Speaker 7: by his father, and he says that he's afraid every

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Speaker 7: night that his father will come down the hall. And

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Speaker 7: so as soon as I saw that letter, I realized,

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Speaker 7: you know, that could be potentially a major piece of evidence,

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Speaker 7: and I called up Cliff Gardner, the appellant attorney who

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Speaker 7: has represented the brothers so in the past twenty years,

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Speaker 7: and I know, you know what I just found. And

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Speaker 7: then I ran over to a UPS tour and scanned

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Speaker 7: the letter and emailed that over Cliff. And now that letter,

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Speaker 7: along with the information in a documentary I was executive

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Speaker 7: producer of two years ago on Peacock called Menendez plus

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Speaker 7: Menudo Voice Betrayed. And in that documentary other new evidence

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Speaker 7: were survealed, and that was that Jose Menendez was accused

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Speaker 7: by a former member of the Latin boy band Menudo,

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Speaker 7: of raping him when he was fourteen years old.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that was really big news when it came out.

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Speaker 5: Was a great documentary, and that was like that broke

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Speaker 5: it open for me in my mind, right, oh wow,

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Speaker 5: another victim is coming forward.

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Speaker 8: Well to me, that was us to have a new

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Speaker 8: victim who is completely independent of the brothers, you know,

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Speaker 8: was really startling information.

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Speaker 7: Although actually it was a story that I started hearing

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Speaker 7: rumors about thirty years ago during the first trial.

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Speaker 3: So there were rumors about this prior.

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Speaker 7: There were and actually I made a dozen reporting trips

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Speaker 7: to Puerto Rico in the nineteen nineties and two thousands

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Speaker 7: trying to chase down the story. And actually I was

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Speaker 7: initially tipped off to the story by a man named

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Speaker 7: John Paduo, who was an elderly man at the time

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Speaker 7: I started talking to them. He had been Jose Menanda's

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Speaker 7: personal assistant at HRTZ Rennakar and also at Arcia Records

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Speaker 7: when Menandez was head of RCA Records and signed Menudo

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Speaker 7: in nineteen eight three to a thirty million dollar contract,

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Speaker 7: which was really a lot of money for that time.

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Speaker 7: And also Menudo had never recorded one song in English before,

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Speaker 7: They'd only recorded in Spanish, and so I knew. I

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Speaker 7: knew that there was somebody out there. The problem I

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Speaker 7: had was that in all my recording trips, nobody would

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Speaker 7: ever go on the record who was a former member

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Speaker 7: of the group. I had plenty of jeuralists that were

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Speaker 7: talking to me, and they heard all the rulers that

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Speaker 7: there were stories going around, but I couldn't actually get

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Speaker 7: anybody to come forward who had been in the group,

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Speaker 7: because it's just a shameful secret, and some people take

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Speaker 7: these secrets to their grave and they never tell anybody.

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Speaker 4: Well, luckily you were able to kind of shed light

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Speaker 4: or help shed light on the secret. And you know

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Speaker 4: how pivotal do you think it was the combination of

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Speaker 4: the other allegation and and the letter in moving things

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Speaker 4: forward in the judicial system.

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Speaker 7: That new evidence, which is summarized in a harevieous corpus

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Speaker 7: petition that was filed the day after Menanda's Manu Boys

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Speaker 7: trade came out. I think that new evidence is really

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Speaker 7: what god the brothers back in court twenty years later.

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Speaker 7: They had not been in court. They had exhausted all

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Speaker 7: their appeals, and I am grateful to Ryan Murphy. I'm

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Speaker 7: grateful to Netflix for the series Monsters me Menda's I'm

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Speaker 7: grateful to Netflix for releasing a documentary which I'm interviewed

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Speaker 7: in last October, and they the three hundred million subscribers

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Speaker 7: of Netflix certainly helped raise the awareness of the case.

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Speaker 7: But the reality is that higher evidence is what gets

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Speaker 7: you released our years of incarceration, not a buzzy TV show.

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Speaker 2: That's true, that's fair. But it did draw attention, right,

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Speaker 2: so we all feel and it's pressure, I think though

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Speaker 2: too right. I think the pressure probably had something to

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Speaker 2: do with the district attorney, Yeah, because I feel like

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Speaker 2: the Ryan Murphy thing really pushed things forward as well.

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Speaker 2: Like there were the social media presence of the Ryan

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Speaker 2: Murphy Show was so huge, and people were making videos

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Speaker 2: for this resentencing to happen, you know, they were really

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Speaker 2: calling for it in you know, on social media, and

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Speaker 2: I think the DA who was you know, up for reelection,

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Speaker 2: kind of ran with it.

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Speaker 3: It was a great stage.

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Speaker 7: It's a great stage, right, But actually the whole social

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Speaker 7: media movement began in the fall of twenty twenty. My son,

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Speaker 7: who was fourteen at the time, came to me one

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Speaker 7: afternoon and they said, Dad, you won't believe it. TikTok

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Speaker 7: is full of men Brothers videos. That's true. I laugh

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Speaker 7: and rabbit hole. Yeah for three hours.

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Speaker 5: Well, Robert rand is with us right now. He literally

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Speaker 5: wrote the book on the Menanda's brothers, and he's going

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Speaker 5: to stick with us for the next segment too. So

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Speaker 5: stick around in the eleven o'clock hour, we're going to

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Speaker 5: be discussing an alled serial killer in the Northeast. Last week,

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Speaker 5: a thirteenth body was found. Could all these be connected?

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Speaker 5: Stay right here True Crime tonight.

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Speaker 3: Back to the Menandaz Brothers. You know, we have the guy,

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Speaker 3: the author who really wrote the.

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Speaker 2: Book, and you know the book is called The Menendaz Brothers,

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Speaker 2: The shocking, untold story of the Menenda's family and the

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Speaker 2: killings that stunned the nation. And Robert, welcome back. Thank

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Speaker 2: you for sticking with us for another segment.

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Speaker 7: Thank you for having me.

439
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,440
Speaker 5: I mean, this is the guy, right, this is like guy,

440
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 5: this is Robert. You did more than just write a book,

441
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,680
Speaker 5: right like, I feel like you really kind of potentially

442
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 5: assisted in breaking this investigation and resentencing hearing wide open.

443
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 3: How do you feel about that?

444
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 7: Well, actually, I'm the only reporter who covered the investigation

445
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,120
Speaker 7: in the fall of nineteen eighty nine. There were seven

446
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 7: months between the crime and the rest of the others

447
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 7: in March of ninety and I also covered each six

448
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,959
Speaker 7: month long trial in ninety three, ninety four, and in

449
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 7: ninety five ninety six, and so I have done a

450
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 7: few other stories. I was working at the CBS local

451
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 7: station in la as part of the investigative unit for

452
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 7: many years, but I kept coming back to the Uned

453
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 7: States because I felt that the second trial was a

454
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 7: complete miscarriage of justice. The judge reversed all its evidence

455
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,919
Speaker 7: rulings from the first trial. He did not allow the

456
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 7: defense to present most of their abuse evidence. That the

457
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 7: first trial there were two juries, and half of those

458
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 7: jurors actually voted for manslaughter, not murder. Manslaughter. The brothers

459
00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,959
Speaker 7: still would have served twenty two years if they've been

460
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 7: convictions of manslaughter. But here we are, and they've been

461
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 7: incarcerated for thirty five years now, and now they go

462
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 7: up in front of the California pro Board August twenty

463
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 7: first and twenty second, now that they were re sentenced.

464
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 7: A couple of weeks ago and they actually have a

465
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 7: chance of getting out. I believe they will eventually get out.

466
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,959
Speaker 7: It might be the end of this year, it might

467
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 7: leave till next year, but I believe they will get out.

468
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:28,640
Speaker 7: And they shared it out.

469
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 2: There was so much chatter at the time. You know,

470
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 2: Mark Geragos, the Menanda's brothers lawyer. You know, he was

471
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 2: doing such a press tour, and you know he's a

472
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 2: very magnanimous attorney. And you know, the idea was that

473
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 2: they would be home for Thanksgiving, right that the Menendaz

474
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 2: brothers were packing their bags in prison and they'd be

475
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 2: home for the holidays. And that really didn't happen. And

476
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 2: you know, we've talked about this before. I would have

477
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,719
Speaker 2: to imagine that this final stretch is hard. Is this

478
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 2: delay must be, you know, kind of brutal when you're

479
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 2: counting the days to go home.

480
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 7: Well, actually, I'm going to write one or My original

481
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 7: menens book came out in September twenty eighteen. We re

482
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 7: released it last September, a week before Monster's premier with

483
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 7: new information about Menendus and Minudo that's not in the documentary.

484
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 7: And my publisher wants to do a final edition of

485
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 7: the book when the brothers are released from jail, which

486
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 7: I just told you I believe will happen. And there's

487
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 7: quite a story going on right now behind the scenes

488
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 7: with all the movement and backstage things that are going on,

489
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 7: and it's quite a story, but that's still coming.

490
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 2: Can I make sure I just understand it completely. In

491
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 2: their first trial, they obviously had it. They were sentenced,

492
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 2: but they were sentenced for murder, but the sex abuse

493
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 2: was not allowed in their trial, and that's why they

494
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 2: were mis sentenced.

495
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 3: Is that the whole argument here.

496
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,719
Speaker 7: So in the first trial it ended in two mistrials.

497
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 7: There were two juries for each brother because some of

498
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 7: the evidence only applied to one brother or the other brother,

499
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,479
Speaker 7: and neither of the two juries could reach a verdict.

500
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 7: So the trial judge Stanley Weisberg declared two mistrials at

501
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 7: the end of the first trial in January ninety four.

502
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 7: And then normally, if this had not been a high

503
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 7: profile case that was heavily covered by the media, there

504
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 7: would have been a plea bar garden and you never

505
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 7: would have heard of this case again. But since it

506
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 7: was carried gabble gavel on cour TV. Bill Garcetti, who

507
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 7: was the da of La Kelly at that time said

508
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 7: within a half an hour he was going on TV

509
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 7: and he said, we are going to retry this case.

510
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 7: This is first to be murder, and we are going

511
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 7: after the votes again. And they did. And in the

512
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:52,479
Speaker 7: second trial, that's where the judge completely reversed most of

513
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 7: his evidence rulings, and the evidence rulings that he didn't reverse,

514
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 7: he severely limited what the defense this is could say.

515
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 7: And so the jury, a single jury in a second trial,

516
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 7: they heard a completely different set of evidence than the

517
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:14,199
Speaker 7: first trial juris. And then the second trial ended with

518
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 7: a first screen murder commission in March of ninety six.

519
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 7: And then after that guild phase, there was what's called

520
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 7: a pedally phase where the jury had two choices, life

521
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 7: without parole or the deacons. And in that pedally phase,

522
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 7: the jurors heard all of that abuse of evidence, and

523
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 7: the jury voted for life without parole. And several of

524
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 7: the jurors told me off the record, if they had

525
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 7: heard that evidence in the guild phase of the second trial,

526
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 7: they wouldn't have voted for murder.

527
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 5: I believe that. I believe that's true. Yeah, I believe

528
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 5: that to be true.

529
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 7: This is a miscarriage of justice that should should be correct.

530
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think it will be so. Robert, you

531
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 5: you believe that that they're going to get out. Do

532
00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 5: you think it could happen by the end of this year?

533
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 7: Possibly it could happen. What will happen is that the

534
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 7: brothers appear before the California pro Board. They will have

535
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 7: two separate hearings because they are two separate cases. Even

536
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 7: though we think of them as one unit, they are

537
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 7: two individual cases. And if the pro Board recommends that

538
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 7: they be released, actually they will announce that the same

539
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 7: day as the hearing for each brother, and so then

540
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 7: there's a waiting period of four months that will take place,

541
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 7: and then it lands on the desk of Governor Kavin Newsom,

542
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 7: and Governor Newsom could either agree with the pro Board

543
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 7: and you know if they recommend the brother's release, or

544
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 7: he could veto the recommendation of the pro Board and

545
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 7: you just won't know. If they are turned down initially

546
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 7: at the initial prole hearing, they could reapply after a

547
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 7: certain amount of time. But the most important thing is

548
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 7: they've never been eligible parole before. So this is really

549
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 7: a remarkable development. And as former LA County DA George

550
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 7: Gascon said last October when he announced that he was

551
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 7: initiating a resentsing potential for Eric and Lyolmanendez. And Gascon said,

552
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 7: Eric and Lyomanendez were sentenced to life without parole. They

553
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 7: thought they would never get out of prison, and yet

554
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 7: they chose a path of redemption. They chose to be

555
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 7: of service to their inmate community and developed programs that

556
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 7: help their fellow inmates, that helped the prison and I

557
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 7: think that says a lot about who they are. And

558
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 7: one of the key things that I think we have

559
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 7: to look at is what is the purpose of prison?

560
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 2: Is?

561
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 7: Are we trying to lock people up and throw away

562
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 7: the key or have Eric Lyle Menendas been punished enough

563
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 7: after thirty five years, Because.

564
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 5: The purpose of prison is rehabilitation, right, It's not to

565
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 5: lock somebody away, it's to make them better. And it's punishment.

566
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 5: Of course, you do a bad thing, you have to

567
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 5: take the pain right that goes along with it. But

568
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 5: you know, what do you say to the criticism which

569
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 5: has been widely said that maybe the Menanda's brothers are

570
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 5: getting a leg up in this resentencing of it all

571
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 5: because of their documentary and because there has been a

572
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 5: scripted Ryan Murphy film about them. Does that mean that

573
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 5: we're cherry picking the justice system? Given their origin story,

574
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 5: it obviously shapes so much. But I would imagine many

575
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 5: people have an origin story that's painful.

576
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 3: Do they get resentenced too?

577
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 7: I believe that eric Lyle Menendez, again, if fish were

578
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 7: not a high profile media case heavily covered by the media,

579
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 7: that this would just be another case. There are three

580
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 7: In the year that eric A llioman Ands went on trial,

581
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 7: there were three thousand cases of parents who killed their children.

582
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 7: There were three hundred cases of kids who killed their parents.

583
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 7: And so, wow, that's an interesting statistic out of way.

584
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 2: Interesting too, like it's the media that maybe put them

585
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 2: behind bars in the narrative of that, and frankly, maybe

586
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 2: it's a media that will get them out. It's kind

587
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 2: of a full circle.

588
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 7: Interesting because for three years after eric A llioman Anders

589
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 7: were rushed, there were legal issues involving their therapists. They

590
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 7: contested that went all the way to the California Supreme Court,

591
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 7: and so the only story that people were told was

592
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 7: coming from the DA's office that we're talking about two

593
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 7: grite richids that killed Ozzie and Harriet of Sunday Night

594
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 7: in Beverly Hills, and the defense made what I consider

595
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 7: a taxayer. They didn't come out with anything of their

596
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 7: defense until two weeks before the first trial, and then

597
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 7: they talked about debuse in what the brothers had experienced

598
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 7: in their family.

599
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 4: We are unfortunately running out of time. I feel like

600
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 4: we could talk to you for about six or more hours.

601
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 4: I really hope you come back and listen. You can

602
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 4: get a newly updated version of Robert Rand's book The

603
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 4: Menendez Murders, The shocking, untold story of the Menandez family

604
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 4: and the killings that stunned the nation. Get it on

605
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 4: Amazon wherever you get your books. Also follow him on

606
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 4: Instagram at I Am Robert Rand, where he blogs daily

607
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 4: about the Menendez case. Also, his website is rife with information.

608
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 4: It's so fascinating Menendez Murders dot com and you can

609
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 4: also catch this brilliant man on x at Menendez Rand.

610
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 2: Thank you again for being here, and please call us

611
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 2: at eight eight eight three to one Crime, or you

612
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 2: could always call us on our socials at True Crime

613
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 2: Tonight's show for Instagram and TikTok. We're at True Crime

614
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 2: Tonight on Facebook. But First, we have a talkback, so

615
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 2: let's throw to that right now.

616
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 9: Hi, my name is Kelly. I'm calling in or hitting

617
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 9: the little voice button in to ask you guys, if

618
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 9: you're getting a little deja vu with Travis Decker and

619
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 9: Brian Laundry and if you think the same results will occur,

620
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 9: do you think he's no longer with us or do

621
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 9: you think he's on the run.

622
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 3: Such a good question.

623
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 5: Last night I would have answered, and I did actually

624
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 5: answer on a TikTok live last night that I thought,

625
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 5: you know, maybe Travis Decker, you know, took his own life.

626
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 5: But now we have breaking news, right, we have breaking

627
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 5: news that we're going to be talking about that he

628
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 5: may have been spotted and the law enforcement is talking

629
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 5: about being alert and looking through you know, social media

630
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 5: posts that have taken place where they think they spotted him, right, Courtney, like,

631
00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 5: that's the breaking news today.

632
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 4: That's right. And just to catch people up, Travis Decker,

633
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,800
Speaker 4: he is the man who is wanted for the death

634
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 4: of his three young daughters. And just breaking it is

635
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 4: believed that he was spotted in the Enchantments and that

636
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 4: is up in near the Canadian border. Authorities say they

637
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 4: believe they spotted Decker, who is an ex soldier, and

638
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 4: he was near a remote alpine lake in Washington State.

639
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 4: And this was after receiving a tip from hikers who

640
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 4: said they saw a lone person who appeared to be

641
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 4: ill prepared for the conditions. So it goes to show

642
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 4: you how important tips are and listening and having your

643
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 4: eyes in ears open are.

644
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 2: And I guess that's the connection, right, that's the callback

645
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,720
Speaker 2: to the tragedy of Gabby Patito's death and Brian Laundry,

646
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 2: who's the person you know who took her life and

647
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 2: then later took his because there was this national search, right,

648
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 2: and again he had been kind of in and around

649
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,240
Speaker 2: a wooded area had been spotted. Everybody was being asked

650
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 2: to check their photographs and you know, sometimes you might

651
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 2: just be taking a picture of your loved one and

652
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 2: little do you know, the person in the background of

653
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 2: that photo is America's most wanted And I think that's

654
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 2: the connection here is, Yeah, this man is on the

655
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 2: loose and authorities are honing in on a very specific section.

656
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 5: The headline said that there was a helicopter, like a

657
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 5: law enforcement helicopter like looking in this area and they

658
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 5: saw this loan hiker. And when this loan hiker realized

659
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 5: there was a helicopter up above, he like hid. So

660
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 5: they really think this is somebody that's trying to avoid

661
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 5: being detected, right, which leads them to believe it is

662
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 5: you know, it's this Travis Decker guy.

663
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:43,439
Speaker 2: Wow.

664
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 5: So God willing you know there might be breaking news

665
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 5: as we're live tonight.

666
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I hope it please be safe and then

667
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:50,800
Speaker 3: around that area.

668
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 4: Yes, great question, Kelly, Thank you, Thank you, Kelly.

669
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 2: All that to be said, we are going to continue

670
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 2: to follow this real time just in case there are

671
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 2: some new deves. We'll be sharing it with you right

672
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 2: away and again be on the lookout. More on this

673
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 2: to come, because we are just getting started. This is

674
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 2: true crime tonight, talking true crime all the time. An

675
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 2: alleged serial killer potentially on the loose in New England.

676
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:26,720
Speaker 2: So Courtney, what is happening?

677
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 4: Well, listen, The body of twenty one year old Adriana

678
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 4: Suazo was found in the woods. This was in Milton,

679
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 4: Massachusetts last week. It is stoking the online rumor of

680
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 4: a New England serial killer. So this is the thirteenth

681
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 4: body found in a really small area where Connecticut Rhode

682
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 4: Island and Massachusetts meets and this is all within three months.

683
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 3: Wow.

684
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 4: So these killings have sparked a region wide public fear

685
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 4: of this potential serial killer law enforcement. This is really

686
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 4: pivotal to know. Law enforcement continues to deny these rumors

687
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 4: and just if anyone's hearing this and having some sort

688
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 4: of deja vu. We actually spoke about this case back

689
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 4: on June second, and at that point there were only

690
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 4: twelve victims. Wow, and now there's a thirteenth body and

691
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 4: some of.

692
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 2: The mos don't appear to be similar. Right, So law

693
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 2: enforcement is essentially saying, look, these are individual horrors, right, like,

694
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 2: no death is you know, anything less than terrible beyond measure.

695
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 2: But there doesn't seem to be a real pattern per se.

696
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 2: But again, law enforcement of course needs to hold their

697
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 2: information close and really can't release too many details about

698
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 2: the manner of death, etc. Because they don't want people

699
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 2: saying crazy stuff or pretending like this actually happens. We've

700
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 2: covered this many times that people make fake confessions because

701
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,359
Speaker 2: they see a little something in the news and they're like, oh, yeah,

702
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 2: there was strangulation. Can you imagine, Well, people, I mean,

703
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 2: the craving for no variety or whatever. I mean that

704
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 2: that's got to be some pathology that.

705
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, we should unpack that.

706
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 4: We really should have an expert in who's you know,

707
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 4: got some letters behind their name. But yeah, there's got

708
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 4: to be there's got to be something to it. But yeah,

709
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 4: you're right about the emos being you know, a little

710
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 4: bit different for these bodies, so.

711
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 3: Just as normal.

712
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 5: Right, that's not normal for a serial killer to have

713
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:26,280
Speaker 5: usually differ signature, right, Usually there's some kind of commonality,

714
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 5: and the police are saying there's been no commonality that

715
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 5: they've noticed, you know, but again, you guys, this is

716
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 5: happening in three different states, right, how well are those

717
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 5: agencies intercommunicating with one another, you know, because sometimes.

718
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 3: They don't do that, right, Yeah, so true.

719
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 5: So I mean that's another thing that's adding you know,

720
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 5: fuel to this speculation, is that you know, there's three

721
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 5: different investigative agencies covering you know, these three different states,

722
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 5: and how well are they communicating these emos and whatnot.

723
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 5: So all this is just adding fuel to the fire.

724
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 5: And you know, additionally, a serial killer is.

725
00:39:59,160 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 3: A big deal.

726
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 5: We we haven't had one in a while because there's so

727
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,399
Speaker 5: much more rare today than they were, you know, back

728
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 5: in the Ted Bundy era, right yep. And there's a

729
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,919
Speaker 5: lot of different reasons for that. Well, you know, one

730
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 5: thing is like the advancement in sciences, you know DNA now,

731
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 5: you know, usually it used to be that they could say, well,

732
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 5: this probably came from this person's head, this strand of hair, right,

733
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 5: because it's the same hair type, it's the same color,

734
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,360
Speaker 5: things like that. But now they have like DNA that

735
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 5: they can pull from, you know, specific types of hair,

736
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 5: and they didn't used to be able to do that. Additionally,

737
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 5: the technology just in general, there's cameras everywhere. There's ring cameras,

738
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 5: atm cameras, there's you know, traffic stop cameras. You know,

739
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 5: there's all kinds of different ways to be seen. So

740
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 5: also something that's not talked about a whole lot is

741
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 5: the prison population has exploded, right, you know, the crimes

742
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 5: have been hit harder, like if you commit a crime now,

743
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,879
Speaker 5: like for instance, California has a three strike law, and

744
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 5: there are people who applying that these serial killers are

745
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 5: already in jail for lesser crimes. So yeah, no, that's

746
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 5: an actual theory by like legit criminologists that you know,

747
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 5: serial killers. Potential serial killers might already be in jail

748
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 5: for maybe abusing someone or you know, torturing an animal

749
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:28,359
Speaker 5: or arson any number of you know, predicates to serial killing.

750
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:33,760
Speaker 5: So because crimes are being prosecuted harder, they're already in prison,

751
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 5: so they can't commit those those crimes.

752
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 3: You know, We'll have to see. But I don't know there.

753
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, in the eighties and nineties my understanding, and actually

754
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 4: I want to talk about this later in the week.

755
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 4: I'm fairly certain there was a crazy uptick in incarceration

756
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 4: at that time, so that would also make sense in

757
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 4: addition to all of you know, the technological advance.

758
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 2: How does anybody get away with anything these days? That is,

759
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 2: honestly get away with anything? My TV talks to me sometimes.

760
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 2: I don't know if you guys have ever had that experience.

761
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: I'm also a complete dummy, so let's just be clear.

762
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 2: But like, I go get to my coffee and I

763
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,319
Speaker 2: was like morning and my TV starts talking to me.

764
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 3: So it's been listening all night.

765
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 2: It's been listening all morning, Like, we have no assumed

766
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:23,439
Speaker 2: privacy at this point, and how did we get away

767
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 2: with anything?

768
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 3: Like, how does a serial killer get away period.

769
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 4: This is a creer. This is quite an aside. But

770
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 4: have either of you guys, Stephanie, I'm pretty sure you

771
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 4: did watch the HBO. It's a scripted It was a

772
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 4: scripted series called The Night of.

773
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 3: Oh, it's so scary. I love it, love very.

774
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,800
Speaker 4: I think it's very I've watched episode one maybe four times.

775
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 4: I think it's maybe the most beautiful episode. I need

776
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 4: to watch it.

777
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 3: I totally forgot all about that. YEA so good.

778
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 4: And I bring it up because of the importance all

779
00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 4: of these cameras at the bodega, at the traffic line,

780
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 4: when you're in the toll in your car, and stories

781
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 4: are just so much easier to timestamp.

782
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 2: And that's why the Karen Read thing got back to

783
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 2: go back in time to an earlier segment. But Karen Read,

784
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 2: how do we have the timeline still messy? How is

785
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 2: that possible in today's day and age with phones and

786
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 2: technology and ring cameras and Lexus cars? I mean, how

787
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 2: are we not able to sort this stuff out?

788
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,280
Speaker 4: Right? And was it a headlight or a dog who'd

789
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,399
Speaker 4: been chewing on a pig here? How is that?

790
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 3: How is that so complicated?

791
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 2: I think you solved it just a couple of days

792
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 2: ago court, Like, I thought that was brilliant. Your your

793
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:40,280
Speaker 2: theory about the dog toy having you know, pig Hinde

794
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 2: in it, that was brilliant, And like, why are we not?

795
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 3: Am I not seeing that everywhere totally?

796
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,320
Speaker 4: And credit where credits due? That was bodies. I was

797
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 4: the one enthusiastically nodding my head saying, yes, my dog

798
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 4: has bully sticks.

799
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 3: You don't tell anybody, it's all you.

800
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 4: If you want to weigh in on any of what

801
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 4: we've spoken about this evening, give us a call. We're

802
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 4: at eight to eighty three to one crime or send

803
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 4: us a talkback message. And speaking of talkbacks, we have

804
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 4: a new one now that we'd love to hear.

805
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 2: Well.

806
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 3: I love it talking.

807
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 5: Hi.

808
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 6: My name is Eva. I'm calling from Connecticut, really close

809
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 6: to where one of the victim's bodies of this potential

810
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 6: New England serial killer was found. Personally, I didn't think

811
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 6: that there was one, but after the thirteenth body, I'm

812
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 6: starting to entertain the possibility that there is a serial

813
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 6: killer on the loose. But I'm curious, what do you

814
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 6: guys think? Do you think that people are trying to

815
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 6: make something out of nothing? Just for the excitement of it,

816
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 6: or do you think there's a chance there actually is

817
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 6: a serial killer in New England.

818
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 3: I'm right with you. Yeah.

819
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:43,720
Speaker 2: And by the way, serial killers, if this brings eva

820
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 2: any comfort, they are very rare. So we all kind

821
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 2: of obsess about serial killers because it is kind of

822
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 2: like a great white shark, right there's there's not many

823
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 2: of them. And it should also be comforting because we've

824
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,840
Speaker 2: heard this from Scott Bond, who's an extraordinary expert in

825
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 2: serial killers.

826
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,760
Speaker 3: He told me once and it's stuck with me that.

827
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 2: We are more likely to die from a vending machine

828
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 2: falling on us and killing us than we are from

829
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 2: a serial killer. So the good news is New England

830
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 2: it's rare. Just you know, we all have to be

831
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 2: vigilant and keep an eye out and trust your spidey sense.

832
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 5: And I kind of am with the talkback person. I

833
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 5: kind of feel at first like people are kind of

834
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,919
Speaker 5: making a mountain out of molehill, and you know, there's

835
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:32,320
Speaker 5: no shared modus operandi with any of these bodies and whatnot.

836
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 3: But now I'm kind of with her.

837
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,240
Speaker 5: I kind of feel like maybe there might be something

838
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 5: to this, so I'm keeping I'm in that big Facebook

839
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 5: group of seventy thousand, and I'm checking it every day,

840
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,479
Speaker 5: and I find that I'm like kind of getting maybe

841
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 5: a little convinced, and maybe that's just you.

842
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 4: Know, you're gonna have you, but you're gonna have a

843
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 4: tough job convincing me because given the information we have,

844
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 4: which is not all that much, I'm choosing in this

845
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,399
Speaker 4: moment to sort of trust the experts and who knows

846
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 4: what is being withheld Stephanie to your earlier point, there

847
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:07,359
Speaker 4: may be a lot of the investigations we don't know.

848
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 4: But there's a criminologist at Northwestern excuse me, Northeastern University

849
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 4: named James Allen Fox, and you know he flat out

850
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 4: said there's no pattern to the dump sites. Allegedly, some

851
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 4: of the deaths are being ruled a homicide, others there

852
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 4: is no sign of trauma. The connection is that these

853
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 4: bodies have been discovered by passers by in the woods

854
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 4: or remote areas, which is scary enough.

855
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 3: A lot of body, right, it's a lot of bodies.

856
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:39,360
Speaker 2: It's a lot of random people that are killing I

857
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 2: don't know which. Never bet a serial killer or thirteen

858
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 2: random killers individual killers on the lease.

859
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 4: Well, but I don't mean to laugh, but keep in

860
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 4: mind what authorities said, some of these have not been

861
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 4: rule homicides.

862
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, but they're all found in like remote

863
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,280
Speaker 3: wooded areas, right, Yes, I am never in a remote

864
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 3: wooded area, thank you. We are not dying in a

865
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 3: position where.

866
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 5: I'm dying like this can't be. No, what I'm trying

867
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 5: to say is, and I'm not trying to be glib,

868
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 5: but what I'm trying.

869
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 3: To say is like this just seems.

870
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:16,839
Speaker 5: Like a lot like one or two okay, find they're

871
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 5: hiking or whatever. Thirteen that seems in a very short

872
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:21,799
Speaker 5: period of time.

873
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 4: In short, it's very short.

874
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,480
Speaker 5: And and let me be clear too, with serial killers,

875
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,879
Speaker 5: usually there's a longer cooling off period, right, because let's

876
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 5: let's define what a serial killer is for everybody.

877
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:32,720
Speaker 3: Is that okay?

878
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 7: Yes?

879
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 5: And this is kind of interesting too. A serial killer

880
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 5: is somebody who has killed three or more people, three

881
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 5: or more people, and there's a cooling off period. And

882
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 5: a cooling off period can be you know, a week,

883
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,879
Speaker 5: a month, a decade, you know, like with BTK there

884
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 5: was a massive puling off while, but it could even

885
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 5: be a day, right, it could even be a day.

886
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 5: So is this is this fit a serial killer? And

887
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 5: it does because there's three or more. There's a really

888
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 5: short cooling off period though that's the only thing like

889
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 5: it's I haven't run into very many serial killers that

890
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 5: have a day of cooling off. Usually it's a month

891
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 5: or longer. So the fact that this is all condensed

892
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 5: in a really short timeframe does kind of make me

893
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 5: think that it's not. So I'm I go back and forth.

894
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 5: I'm just gonna be honest, I go back and forth.

895
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,240
Speaker 2: Can I ask a question, just for a layman's question,

896
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 2: So if a person, if a serial killer, or if

897
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 2: a killer I should say, takes the lives of four

898
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 2: different people back to back Monday through Thursday, does that

899
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:42,320
Speaker 2: make them a serial killer or that just makes them.

900
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 3: A mass murderer?

901
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:46,839
Speaker 5: Now, a mass murderer is somebody who takes more than

902
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 5: one life in a in one geographical location.

903
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 3: Right, So like one.

904
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 5: Area life club, for example, puls Las Vegas shoot the

905
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 5: Las Vegas shootings that my brother was at. Actually he's okay,

906
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,800
Speaker 5: he's good. But that's a mass that's a mass killing.

907
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:05,799
Speaker 5: And what you just described like day day one, day two,

908
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 5: day three, day four, that would be a mass killing.

909
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 2: Wow, we have our Kati friend of the family and

910
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:16,760
Speaker 2: producer Brian natt Miller, who's been following an insane case.

911
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:20,280
Speaker 2: I shouldn't say insane, we should reserve judgment. Is following

912
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 2: a very interesting case. I've got a cult. This is

913
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 2: in cult and it's a mixed bag of a lot.

914
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 2: So Brian, welcome.

915
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 10: Well, thanks for having me. Courty body. You know I'm

916
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 10: fans of all three of you, so thanks for having

917
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 10: me on the show. I appreciate it.

918
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 3: We're so happy to have you here.

919
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 5: You're here to talk about my favorite subject, Brian.

920
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 3: Cults.

921
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:46,799
Speaker 10: You yeah, culture, one of my favorite two, and this

922
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,799
Speaker 10: one in particular is I don't know how to say.

923
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 10: It's just bananas. It's not at all. It is like

924
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 10: a typical cult.

925
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 3: It is. Tell us about it, Yeah, tell us everything.

926
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 10: I mean, I think most people think about cults. I

927
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 10: think religious cults. You know someone who is charismatic leader

928
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 10: and they're the next community Jesus or they tell people

929
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 10: they can take them to the Promised Land or whatever

930
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,360
Speaker 10: it is. And this is not that. This is a

931
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 10: group called the Zizians that sort of are They're a

932
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 10: fringe group from the Bay Area, like that are largely

933
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 10: made up for the most part, fairly smart people. They

934
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 10: are people who are in the Silicon Valley world and

935
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 10: the tech world, had big degrees and computer science and whatnot,

936
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:29,799
Speaker 10: and they are this fringe group that developed this really

937
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 10: radical set of beliefs that blends everything from things called

938
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 10: radical veganism and very unique transgender identity beliefs and some

939
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 10: pretty out there dystopian AI theories that have sort of

940
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:47,280
Speaker 10: made up the core of what their sort of belief

941
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 10: system is that has led them down some pretty bizarro

942
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 10: paths and have led now to multiple homicides as well

943
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 10: as a litany of other charges across four different states.

944
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 2: Wait, pack that. So you said, let's go one at

945
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 2: a time. Radical veganism. I'm gluten free, Please you not judge.

946
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 2: So radical veganism sounds right at my alley.

947
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 3: What is that?

948
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:14,839
Speaker 10: First and foremost, Well, let's start with the AI think first,

949
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 10: because the AA beliefs of theirs lead into the veganism.

950
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 10: So to simplify it, they really believe in something called

951
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 10: the singularity that we're going to hit a point at

952
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 10: some point when AI is going to surpass human intelligence

953
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 10: and suddenly be essentially take over the world and the

954
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 10: computers are going to rule the people, and they believe that.

955
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 10: You know, look, there's a lot of talk about AI

956
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 10: good and bad in the other but they really believe

957
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 10: AI is going to take over the world. We're going

958
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 10: to become like enslaved to it. And part of their

959
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:47,799
Speaker 10: belief was that AI was going to use meat industry

960
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 10: the blueprint for how society works, so that would get

961
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 10: AIS the tools that needed to sort of like figure

962
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,399
Speaker 10: out how to control humanity. So part of what they

963
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 10: believed was not only should everyone be vegan, but they

964
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 10: have to convince all the people who create AI to

965
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 10: be vegan and convince them to embed withinn AI. That's

966
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 10: belief that animals are important beans that should be respected.

967
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,479
Speaker 10: Otherwise AI is not going to respect animals, therefore won't

968
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:14,879
Speaker 10: respect us, and we're all going to die.

969
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 2: Oh okay, this is a loop because we were talking

970
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 2: about AI last night, Brian, and it was very, very scary,

971
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 2: So you know, that is a thing. But regardless, so

972
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 2: they believe that if you don't eat meat, and that

973
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 2: will inform AI to also be conscientious about meat eating,

974
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 2: and therefore they would be more conscientious about human life.

975
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 3: Is that accurate.

976
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 10: That is, yeah, just to sort of what one of

977
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 10: their core beliefs were that it is Wow. Yeah, it's

978
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 10: like I said, it's pretty out there. It's not it's

979
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 10: Nike any other cult I've looked into, which is what

980
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 10: drew me into this in the first place, because it

981
00:52:56,560 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 10: is just fascinating how they have all these different beliefs

982
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 10: have come together to sort of like if I sort

983
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 10: of informed their mantra as they move forward, I mean

984
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 10: they but at our court, they believed that they were

985
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 10: the only people on the planet who were really doing good,

986
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 10: Like they felt like this was the only way to

987
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 10: save humanity. The zizz Lesota, who was the sort of

988
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 10: like La Soda, who was sort of like the figurehead

989
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 10: of this group, actually had said at one point, I'm

990
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:28,799
Speaker 10: actually willing to die to advance good and thought that

991
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 10: like this, like she was on the righteous path. At

992
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:34,359
Speaker 10: one point, Alfo said that you know, you shouldn't trust

993
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 10: anyone over thirty who had to kill count of zero

994
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 10: because they believe it it's perfectly acceptable to take out

995
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 10: people if that means helping the animals and helping the

996
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 10: heralding off becoming apocalypse with Apocalypse with Ai.

997
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:51,959
Speaker 4: So Brian, don't trust anyone over thirty with a kill

998
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:52,880
Speaker 4: count of zero.

999
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:59,800
Speaker 10: That was one of the fine quotes that I had read. Yes, wow, that's.

1000
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:01,919
Speaker 3: Pretty and they're super smart too.

1001
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 10: Yeah, that's the thing they you know, the Ziz let's

1002
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:12,720
Speaker 10: know that actually interned at NASA, and multiple other members

1003
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:15,800
Speaker 10: within the group had different jobs at places like Google

1004
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:18,719
Speaker 10: and other big tech and engineering firms. Like these were

1005
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 10: not you know, these actors that were well educated, that

1006
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:25,280
Speaker 10: most of them came from fairly well to do families.

1007
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:28,799
Speaker 10: And again like when they started out, they started sort

1008
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:31,399
Speaker 10: of following what was called like the rationalist movement, which

1009
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:35,240
Speaker 10: is something that's you know, is a lot of people

1010
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 10: in Silicon Valley sort of like are part of, and

1011
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 10: at its core, rationalist is someone who believes that they

1012
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:47,359
Speaker 10: need to take and engage in important conversations to come

1013
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 10: up with ways of thinking clearly for the sake of

1014
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:52,279
Speaker 10: humanity's future, to sort of double check themselves into the

1015
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 10: Silicon Valley like because they are going to help the

1016
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:57,560
Speaker 10: thrower going too far, you know, And it's they have

1017
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:00,879
Speaker 10: different rationalist conferences and different groups that try to spur

1018
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 10: healthy dialogue and conversation because technology is growing so fast, I.

1019
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 4: Might be conflating something I've read I have been reading

1020
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 4: up on the Zizians. Is there some aspect that has

1021
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 4: to do with people having two separate brains and to

1022
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 4: the point where one half of your brain can be

1023
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 4: completely asleep while the other half is completely conscious.

1024
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 10: That is another thing they believe that they developed sort

1025
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:30,440
Speaker 10: of late in their formation of their group, if you will.

1026
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:33,359
Speaker 10: They believe that you could that all brains have two hemispheres,

1027
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:38,320
Speaker 10: and that your different hemispheres can possess completely different everything,

1028
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 10: different moral values, you can have different feelings, you can

1029
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:45,840
Speaker 10: have even different genders, like you can be male and

1030
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:49,600
Speaker 10: female at the same time. And they believe your brain

1031
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:51,279
Speaker 10: can be good, but your brain can be bad, and

1032
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 10: that you can actually, yeah, have half your brain be

1033
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 10: asleep while the rest of you is awakened conscious, And

1034
00:55:56,239 --> 00:56:00,839
Speaker 10: they had this very unique sort of dual hemispheric what

1035
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 10: everyone calls sort of theory about brain chemistry, which is

1036
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 10: worth noting there is no scientific evidence in any different

1037
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 10: scientific world that says that there's any validity to this.

1038
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 5: So all this is like super interesting, like their beliefs

1039
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:18,239
Speaker 5: and whatnot in who they are at their core, but

1040
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 5: it's not illegal.

1041
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 3: Like, what had they done? What crimes have they committed?

1042
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 10: That's where it gets Yeah, that's sort of interesting. They've

1043
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:28,840
Speaker 10: done a lot of interesting crimes as interesting as the

1044
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:31,000
Speaker 10: wrong words they've They've been a part of a variety

1045
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:36,360
Speaker 10: of crimes. I should say that started with a protest

1046
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:38,359
Speaker 10: that they were added a rationalist movement that got out

1047
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 10: of hand. That led to their being arrested for various

1048
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:46,400
Speaker 10: small charges of you know, issues with resisting arrest and

1049
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 10: things like that. But that was the first time they

1050
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:50,480
Speaker 10: sort of got on the map with some press back

1051
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 10: and I was actually in twenty nineteen. That led to

1052
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 10: all kinds of interesting courtroom drama that then a couple

1053
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:02,759
Speaker 10: of years later, twenty two they're you.

1054
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:03,520
Speaker 7: Know, head of the group.

1055
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 10: Viz Lasoda faked her own death and faked drowning in

1056
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 10: the bay in San Francisco, which you know, faking on

1057
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,840
Speaker 10: death is a belony, and they spent something like almost

1058
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 10: a whole day with coast guard and helicopters, all kinds

1059
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 10: of stuff trying to find her too. She eventually was

1060
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 10: declared dead, only to turn up later and believe that

1061
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 10: she faked on death to get out of issues resulting

1062
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:29,960
Speaker 10: around this protest they were at. But you get a

1063
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 10: you know, further down the line here and suddenly they

1064
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:38,080
Speaker 10: are involved in an attempted murder. They're involved in a

1065
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 10: actual and a murder of a landlord of a club

1066
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 10: where some of their members were staying. They are persons

1067
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:47,360
Speaker 10: of interest in the murder of two parents of one

1068
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 10: of their members, and they are they also were in

1069
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 10: a gun shootout with the US Border Patrol that sadly

1070
00:57:56,680 --> 00:58:00,560
Speaker 10: took the life of a Border Patrol agents. And then

1071
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:03,480
Speaker 10: they yeah, yes they did. They killed They shot a

1072
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 10: one of their members, shot a boarder or court is

1073
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:09,720
Speaker 10: still coming, so allegedly shot a Border Patrol agents, right,

1074
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 10: and then a litany of other various state and federal

1075
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 10: charges for gun possession and all kinds of other small crimes.

1076
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 3: So it's alleged.

1077
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:24,880
Speaker 5: It's alleged that they killed one of the member's parents.

1078
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 10: Yes, there are one of the members. Her parents were

1079
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 10: found shot in their home. This was uh, yeah, this

1080
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 10: was Richard and Rita Jaco. Their daughter, Michelle is one

1081
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:44,200
Speaker 10: of the members of the group. And they were found

1082
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 10: shot in Michelle's actual childhood bedroom a neighbor's ring. Cam

1083
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 10: uh picked up two people entering the house, not clear

1084
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 10: enough that they were able to make an idea of them,

1085
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 10: but the neighbors ring cam did pick up some interesting audio.

1086
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:04,000
Speaker 10: They picked up a calling out mom before hearing another

1087
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:06,520
Speaker 10: voice calling out, oh my god, oh my god.

1088
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 5: Oh my god, oh my god.

1089
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 4: That's wicked.

1090
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 10: And so Michelle is currently named as a person of

1091
00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:20,600
Speaker 10: interest in their killings. And there's lots of weird gun stuff.

1092
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 10: So there's other arrest at a hotel and other different

1093
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:26,520
Speaker 10: times members got arrested. They always had guns on them

1094
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 10: and always had were always arms at a teeth ready

1095
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 10: to fight. And one of the guns that was found

1096
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 10: at one of these other arrests massed the serial number

1097
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 10: to a gun that was owned by Michelle, the same

1098
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 10: caliber of gun that was involved in the shooting of

1099
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 10: her parents, and it is strongly speculated that that is

1100
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:49,560
Speaker 10: the murder weapon, but are not officially but announced by police.

1101
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 10: Yet police just got that gun in custody just earlier

1102
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 10: this year.

1103
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:54,640
Speaker 4: So are all these.

1104
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 5: People just walking the streets or has any of this

1105
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 5: been adjudicated or has anybody been charged officially?

1106
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:04,440
Speaker 10: Best thing, there's been a lot of people have been charged. Interestingly,

1107
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 10: the biggest murder here that of the or the biggest

1108
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 10: killing that of Michelle's parents. No one's officially been charged

1109
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 10: with that yet. Michelle has just been named as a

1110
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:16,400
Speaker 10: person of interest. A member has been charged with murder

1111
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:18,880
Speaker 10: and the shooting of the border patrol agent. A member

1112
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 10: has been charged with murder in the killing of their

1113
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 10: landlord in California. And I think one of the interesting

1114
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 10: things about this, this whole case is that these crimes

1115
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:32,760
Speaker 10: took place spanning over three years across four states. So

1116
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,680
Speaker 10: you have a lot of charges of both state charges

1117
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:37,600
Speaker 10: and federal all in the mix here, and.

1118
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:40,560
Speaker 4: A lot that we will continue following and hopefully you

1119
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 4: will be back with us. Brian, thank you so much

1120
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 4: for you know, explaining all of that to us. Come back.

1121
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:50,920
Speaker 4: We are going to dive into four execution cases that

1122
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 4: are happening, and don't forget to give us a call

1123
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:56,800
Speaker 4: eighty to eight thirty one Crime, keep it here, True

1124
01:00:56,880 --> 01:01:00,600
Speaker 4: Crime Tonight.

1125
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:12,680
Speaker 2: Lots of discuss in terms of executions. You know, we've

1126
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:15,600
Speaker 2: been covering the Brian Coburger case for a while now.

1127
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:19,480
Speaker 2: He's the accused in the Idaho college murders, looking at

1128
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:22,600
Speaker 2: a potential death sentence, and you know it kind of

1129
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 2: occurred to us that in Idaho, if in fact he

1130
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:27,760
Speaker 2: is found guilty and sentenced to death, he may be

1131
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 2: put to death by a firing squad, right, which just

1132
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:35,280
Speaker 2: seemed like very archaic, And I just got us thinking

1133
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:39,080
Speaker 2: about just this type of sentencing in general, and there

1134
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:41,040
Speaker 2: seemed to be quite a few happening in the United

1135
01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:43,680
Speaker 2: States real time, frankly at the same time.

1136
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:44,360
Speaker 4: At the same time.

1137
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:46,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, we have like four by four by four.

1138
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:51,400
Speaker 5: Right, So there's over the next four days, four inmates

1139
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:54,080
Speaker 5: in four states are scheduled to be put to death,

1140
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:57,880
Speaker 5: and that's pretty unusual. I mean, certainly there's been strings

1141
01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 5: of executions, but I don't I don't recall they're usually

1142
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:04,640
Speaker 5: pretty rare, right, I don't recall like four happening in

1143
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:06,560
Speaker 5: four days across four states.

1144
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is unusual and completely note and newsworthy.

1145
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:16,280
Speaker 5: Right, right, So there's one today in Alabama and Florida.

1146
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 3: Wow, And then another in Oklahoma.

1147
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:21,520
Speaker 5: Is going to occur on Thursday, and a final one

1148
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:24,400
Speaker 5: is slated for Friday in South Carolina.

1149
01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 4: You know.

1150
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 5: And again, a string of executions is fairly normal, but

1151
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 5: I just this back to back to back seems kind

1152
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 5: of unusual, which you know, of course raised kind of

1153
01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:39,120
Speaker 5: alarm bells with us, right, So today in Alabama, Gregor,

1154
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:40,320
Speaker 5: I kind of want to get into them just a

1155
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:43,440
Speaker 5: little bit if it's okay, but yeah, sure. So today

1156
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:47,000
Speaker 5: in Alabama, Gregory Hunt will be executed for the nineteen

1157
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:50,439
Speaker 5: eighty eight murder and sexual assault of his girlfriend, twenty

1158
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 5: nine year old Karen Lane on August twelfth, Lane, nineteen

1159
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:57,120
Speaker 5: eighty eight. This happened many years ago. Lane was found

1160
01:02:57,160 --> 01:03:00,960
Speaker 5: beaten to death. She suffered sixty injuries, including twenty to

1161
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:02,520
Speaker 5: the head, in her own apartment.

1162
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:04,120
Speaker 3: He was convicted.

1163
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 5: Gregory Hunt was convicted two years later in nineteen ninety

1164
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:09,280
Speaker 5: and sentenced to death. So he's been on death row

1165
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:13,000
Speaker 5: since nineteen ninety, which is going thirty five years, right,

1166
01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:16,280
Speaker 5: and that we're going to speak about that later and

1167
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:21,040
Speaker 5: discuss why this is an issue, right And then also

1168
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:24,360
Speaker 5: today in Florida. In Florida, though Anthony Wainwright will be

1169
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:28,480
Speaker 5: executed for the nineteen ninety three murder, kidnapping, and sexual

1170
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:32,000
Speaker 5: battery of twenty three year old Carmen Gayheart. In April

1171
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 5: of ninety four, Wainwright and a friend both they both

1172
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 5: escaped from prison. By the way in North Carolina abducted

1173
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:43,520
Speaker 5: Gayheart from a supermarket parking lot in Florida. They forcibly

1174
01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:45,600
Speaker 5: raped her then shot her twice in the back of

1175
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:48,800
Speaker 5: the head. I mean, listen, if there's any kind of

1176
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:51,600
Speaker 5: cases that deserve the death penalty, right, I mean these

1177
01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:54,200
Speaker 5: are He was sentenced to death in nineteen ninety five

1178
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:57,600
Speaker 5: and he will be executed with nitrogen gas. Florida is

1179
01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 5: one of the states that allows you to choose how

1180
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:03,240
Speaker 5: you get executed, and he chose nitrogen gas.

1181
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:05,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't even think about it. It makes me.

1182
01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:10,400
Speaker 4: And he chose nitrogen gas? Is that over electrocution?

1183
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:11,240
Speaker 1: Right?

1184
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:12,360
Speaker 3: And why is that?

1185
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:16,320
Speaker 2: There has been a lot of conversation about execution generally speaking,

1186
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:19,160
Speaker 2: or the electric chair is inhumane?

1187
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:24,080
Speaker 5: Right, So there's well, even even the nitrogen gases, you know,

1188
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:25,120
Speaker 5: according to the UN.

1189
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:28,240
Speaker 3: Right, the UN says that this is in humane as well.

1190
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:31,680
Speaker 5: And you know, listen, a lot can be said to that, right,

1191
01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:33,800
Speaker 5: There's an argument to be made, like, you know, he

1192
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:36,280
Speaker 5: didn't care about her life when he took her life,

1193
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 5: so why should we care.

1194
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:39,280
Speaker 3: About I don't know.

1195
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, I know, Like it's listen, we're the United States

1196
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:46,640
Speaker 5: of America. I believe we're supposed to be a shining beacon, right,

1197
01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:48,800
Speaker 5: We're supposed to set the exist. This is just my

1198
01:04:48,920 --> 01:04:52,200
Speaker 5: belief allegedly, you know, this is all just my opinion.

1199
01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:54,360
Speaker 5: I believe we're supposed to be a shining beacon of

1200
01:04:55,000 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 5: moral right and you know, being the best people life right.

1201
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 5: And I just feel like if we're being criticized by

1202
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:07,920
Speaker 5: what we consider to be third world countries in how

1203
01:05:07,960 --> 01:05:11,080
Speaker 5: we handle things in the death penalty being inhumane, then

1204
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:12,720
Speaker 5: maybe there's something that we should examine.

1205
01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:16,160
Speaker 3: I do. It would be very difficult. It is that

1206
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:17,440
Speaker 3: we're going out advice.

1207
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:19,560
Speaker 2: If it was my family member, I know, you don't

1208
01:05:19,560 --> 01:05:22,080
Speaker 2: get me started, right, I am not embarrassed to say

1209
01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:26,760
Speaker 2: what I would think. The love of life, I can't

1210
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:29,640
Speaker 2: even imagine in that spot, so thank God, but it

1211
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:31,080
Speaker 2: would be very difficult to be on it.

1212
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:33,040
Speaker 3: It was trial too, you know.

1213
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:35,200
Speaker 5: I But you know, we have to think too though,

1214
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 5: like people who are family members of these victims. When

1215
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:42,360
Speaker 5: you have a death penalty sentence on you, you get

1216
01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:46,760
Speaker 5: appeal after appeal after appeal like automatic they and as

1217
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:49,080
Speaker 5: a family member, I would want to go to those

1218
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:52,240
Speaker 5: appeals and be like no, you know, so you're being

1219
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:56,600
Speaker 5: tortured constantly as a family member, right, having to constantly

1220
01:05:56,600 --> 01:05:59,959
Speaker 5: fight for your family member, whereas in prison maybe without

1221
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 5: the possibility of parroll like the Menentaz brothers for instance,

1222
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 5: you don't have that. And so is it easier on

1223
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:07,040
Speaker 5: the family, I don't know.

1224
01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:11,400
Speaker 4: Well, I think that depends very much on each individual family.

1225
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:14,840
Speaker 4: You know, some it may be their guiding force, their

1226
01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:18,680
Speaker 4: guiding force in light to be pursuing the death penalty

1227
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:20,200
Speaker 4: for someone taking their loved one.

1228
01:06:20,360 --> 01:06:22,440
Speaker 3: I always so. Yeah, I was going to.

1229
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:26,160
Speaker 4: Say, so four are slated, as you said, body, but

1230
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:30,560
Speaker 4: I feel like it's a very high percentage where last

1231
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 4: minute interventions happen on the day, So even for the

1232
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:39,240
Speaker 4: executions that are slated for Luckily you said Thursday and Friday.

1233
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:42,440
Speaker 5: Right, So, speaking of what you just said, on Thursday,

1234
01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:45,920
Speaker 5: in Oklahoma, John Hansen will be executed for the nineteen

1235
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:49,200
Speaker 5: ninety nine murder and kidnapping of seventy seven year old

1236
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:50,040
Speaker 5: Mary Bowels.

1237
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:53,400
Speaker 3: Now, oh, Mary, I know it's horrible.

1238
01:06:53,480 --> 01:06:53,640
Speaker 7: Right.

1239
01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:57,600
Speaker 5: He is set to be executed by lethal injection on Thursday. However,

1240
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:01,040
Speaker 5: the execution is on hold. Do it do a temporary

1241
01:07:01,120 --> 01:07:03,960
Speaker 5: stay due to legal concerns about alleged bias during a

1242
01:07:04,040 --> 01:07:07,840
Speaker 5: clemency hearing. So that one, we're not really sure if

1243
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:10,240
Speaker 5: that one is actually going to happen or not. So

1244
01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:13,480
Speaker 5: that's one that might be pulled last minute, right because

1245
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:17,040
Speaker 5: it's scheduled to happen in two days. On Friday, in

1246
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 5: South Carolina, Stephen Stanko will be executed for the two

1247
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:23,000
Speaker 5: thousand and five murder of his girlfriend, forty three year

1248
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:27,080
Speaker 5: old Linda Ling and his friend seventy four year old

1249
01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:30,320
Speaker 5: Henry Lee Turner. And that happened in April of two

1250
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:33,880
Speaker 5: thousand and five. Stanko strangled Ling in her room in

1251
01:07:33,960 --> 01:07:36,760
Speaker 5: her home, raped her, and slit the throat of her daughter,

1252
01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:37,880
Speaker 5: who survived.

1253
01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:39,000
Speaker 3: Oh come up.

1254
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:42,439
Speaker 5: He then drove to Henry Turner's house and fatally shot him.

1255
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:46,160
Speaker 5: So yeah, I mean, these are heinous, heinous, heinous crimes

1256
01:07:46,160 --> 01:07:49,560
Speaker 5: and terrible people, Like, by no stretch of the imagination,

1257
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:53,720
Speaker 5: these people are terrible. But you know, again, if you're

1258
01:07:53,720 --> 01:07:56,120
Speaker 5: a family member, I can I can absolutely understand I

1259
01:07:56,280 --> 01:07:59,560
Speaker 5: for an eye and like wanting some kind of revenge,

1260
01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:04,080
Speaker 5: Like I absolutely absolutely understand that I have an aunt

1261
01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:06,040
Speaker 5: who was murdered when I you know, was little. I

1262
01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:10,120
Speaker 5: absolutely understand that I just don't know. I just don't

1263
01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:12,160
Speaker 5: know if it's the right thing to do. And that's

1264
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:16,559
Speaker 5: just like my own personal belief because it's not. A

1265
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:20,160
Speaker 5: death penalty has never been proven to be a deterrent.

1266
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:24,920
Speaker 5: If it was, there would never be a homicide in Texas, Like, right,

1267
01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:26,719
Speaker 5: do you know what I mean? Like, there would never

1268
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:29,920
Speaker 5: be another if you're worried about if you're worried about

1269
01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:31,800
Speaker 5: the death penalty, like I better not do this because

1270
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:33,559
Speaker 5: I'm going to get the death penalty. There would never

1271
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:36,800
Speaker 5: be another crime, right, another murder? There would never be one.

1272
01:08:37,360 --> 01:08:40,639
Speaker 2: It's interesting too, because we always I've always heard the argument,

1273
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:43,200
Speaker 2: and I say always in air quotes. But you know,

1274
01:08:43,240 --> 01:08:45,840
Speaker 2: people say, look, you know, why should we pay to

1275
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:49,040
Speaker 2: keep somebody in prison till the end of days? It's

1276
01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:51,080
Speaker 2: you know, eye for an eye. And by the way,

1277
01:08:51,160 --> 01:08:53,000
Speaker 2: I don't know where I stand on this. I haven't

1278
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 2: been in this situation, thankfully. I don't know how I

1279
01:08:56,160 --> 01:08:59,439
Speaker 2: would feel if someone, you know, took the life of

1280
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:02,360
Speaker 2: my my mother or a brother. You know, God forbid

1281
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:07,760
Speaker 2: your child, you know. So this is an observation. I

1282
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:10,160
Speaker 2: genuinely don't know where to sit with this. I do

1283
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:14,120
Speaker 2: find it fascinating when you see a parent of somebody

1284
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:16,400
Speaker 2: whose life has been taken at some of these death

1285
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:20,200
Speaker 2: sentence trials and they give forgiveness. That takes a lot

1286
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:22,840
Speaker 2: of really takes your breath away. When someone stands there

1287
01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:26,040
Speaker 2: and says, I forgive, I forgive you, and I don't

1288
01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:27,639
Speaker 2: want there to be a death sentence.

1289
01:09:28,360 --> 01:09:28,599
Speaker 9: Wow?

1290
01:09:28,720 --> 01:09:31,160
Speaker 2: Is that powerful? I don't know if I'm as I

1291
01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:32,120
Speaker 2: don't know if I could.

1292
01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:32,559
Speaker 3: Pull that off.

1293
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:36,879
Speaker 4: And Stephanie, you know you mentioned people making the argument

1294
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:40,600
Speaker 4: of oh, why pay to keep someone alive all of

1295
01:09:40,640 --> 01:09:45,840
Speaker 4: these years in prison? But largely life in prison is

1296
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:50,679
Speaker 4: less expensive than actually the death penalty, and that's because

1297
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:54,880
Speaker 4: there are so many more trials and appeals. Body, as

1298
01:09:54,880 --> 01:09:59,599
Speaker 4: you mentioned, the legal processes in these capital cases are

1299
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:03,840
Speaker 4: so much more complex. And you know, we've had the

1300
01:10:03,920 --> 01:10:09,400
Speaker 4: luxury of speaking to Kirk Nurmi, who is a defense

1301
01:10:09,439 --> 01:10:14,519
Speaker 4: attorney and defended Jody Arius in a death sentenced trial,

1302
01:10:15,400 --> 01:10:20,200
Speaker 4: and it's really interesting to truly appreciate the complexities of

1303
01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:25,160
Speaker 4: how everything every word that you say is going to

1304
01:10:25,240 --> 01:10:29,280
Speaker 4: be looked at for at least a decade and tried

1305
01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:33,000
Speaker 4: and retried. And the lawyer ring is it simply is

1306
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:37,880
Speaker 4: more expensive because the lawyers have many more qualifications. It

1307
01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:41,280
Speaker 4: is not a simple task to be a death penalty

1308
01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:42,679
Speaker 4: certified right.

1309
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:46,559
Speaker 5: Well, we learned that like with Brian Coberger, right, and

1310
01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:50,640
Speaker 5: Taylor is like one of only one, like two accredited

1311
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:55,680
Speaker 5: death penalty lawyers in the county.

1312
01:10:55,760 --> 01:10:59,240
Speaker 2: In kurtnermy to Courtney's point, this defense attorney, he made

1313
01:10:59,240 --> 01:11:02,839
Speaker 2: it very clear. I mean, imagine you're defending a person's life.

1314
01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:05,880
Speaker 2: It is life and death. There's no room for error.

1315
01:11:06,200 --> 01:11:08,640
Speaker 2: This is like you don't just throw a clown in

1316
01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:10,120
Speaker 2: the cockpit of an airplane.

1317
01:11:10,200 --> 01:11:10,400
Speaker 3: Right.

1318
01:11:10,479 --> 01:11:13,760
Speaker 2: This has to be highly regarded, highly sought through to

1319
01:11:13,880 --> 01:11:17,559
Speaker 2: avoid endless amounts of appeals, right, which is the first

1320
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:21,679
Speaker 2: thing anybody does after sentencing, seemingly so it is high

1321
01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:24,280
Speaker 2: stake stuff. And you bring up Brian Coberger and the

1322
01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:27,400
Speaker 2: Idaho College murders. So much has been made about his

1323
01:11:27,479 --> 01:11:30,880
Speaker 2: defense team and the cost of them, And frankly I

1324
01:11:30,880 --> 01:11:32,760
Speaker 2: thought the same thing. I was like, expensive, this is

1325
01:11:32,800 --> 01:11:35,760
Speaker 2: like costing the state of Idaho so much money. But

1326
01:11:36,160 --> 01:11:39,960
Speaker 2: Milani Nurmi was very clear to say, look, what's the alternative.

1327
01:11:39,960 --> 01:11:40,719
Speaker 3: What if he's innocent?

1328
01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:44,280
Speaker 4: That's right? And further, if you don't you know, dot

1329
01:11:44,320 --> 01:11:47,880
Speaker 4: every eye and cross every tee along the way, it's

1330
01:11:47,960 --> 01:11:52,439
Speaker 4: almost a guaranteed complete retrial and having to start the

1331
01:11:52,479 --> 01:11:56,360
Speaker 4: process and pay for it all over again. It's really

1332
01:11:56,360 --> 01:12:00,360
Speaker 4: complicated stuff. And guys, I'm actually I'm getting a signal

1333
01:12:00,400 --> 01:12:01,800
Speaker 4: that we have a talk back.

1334
01:12:01,880 --> 01:12:03,000
Speaker 3: Maybe we go to that first.

1335
01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:06,760
Speaker 11: Hi, ladies, this is Velma. I'm calling from Philly. I

1336
01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:10,520
Speaker 11: just have a question in general, what are your feelings

1337
01:12:11,280 --> 01:12:14,160
Speaker 11: on the role that social media plays when it comes

1338
01:12:14,160 --> 01:12:17,200
Speaker 11: to these cases? And I also wanted to say I

1339
01:12:17,240 --> 01:12:19,719
Speaker 11: love the show and you guys are doing a great job.

1340
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:22,960
Speaker 3: Oh, Belma, nice, so nice.

1341
01:12:23,120 --> 01:12:25,280
Speaker 5: And that's a great question, right, So what kind of

1342
01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:28,639
Speaker 5: impact does social media have on cases like That's something

1343
01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:30,200
Speaker 5: that I could probably do a whole segment on.

1344
01:12:30,240 --> 01:12:31,360
Speaker 3: By the way, we should.

1345
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:37,120
Speaker 5: I think it's god, you know, it's where do I begin?

1346
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:41,840
Speaker 5: So open cases, right, so cases that haven't been adjudicated

1347
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:44,719
Speaker 5: or there hasn't been any charges. I think social media

1348
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:48,679
Speaker 5: has a tremendous impact on you know, people believe something

1349
01:12:48,800 --> 01:12:52,439
Speaker 5: and you know, they have the access to the Internet,

1350
01:12:52,439 --> 01:12:56,000
Speaker 5: They're going to be able to espouse their opinion very loudly,

1351
01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:59,840
Speaker 5: potentially to a large number of people. Every single day,

1352
01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:03,840
Speaker 5: and you know, maybe whip the public up into a

1353
01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:07,719
Speaker 5: frenzy over something maybe that's not even true, right, something

1354
01:13:07,720 --> 01:13:10,519
Speaker 5: that maybe they sleuthed on that they they've can you know,

1355
01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:13,759
Speaker 5: confirmed their own bias about something, and now they have.

1356
01:13:13,680 --> 01:13:15,880
Speaker 3: A microphone and hours to talk about it.

1357
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:19,760
Speaker 5: And I think that could be potentially dangerous in you know.

1358
01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:23,920
Speaker 3: Polluting a jury pool. And is that algorithm, you know, right?

1359
01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:25,800
Speaker 3: Is that algorithm fair? You know?

1360
01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:29,519
Speaker 2: Sometimes I'll see stuff online and we'll flag it amongst

1361
01:13:29,560 --> 01:13:32,920
Speaker 2: each other when we're talking and we have to fact checked,

1362
01:13:33,040 --> 01:13:35,240
Speaker 2: you know, just because somebody says it doesn't make it

1363
01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:36,200
Speaker 2: so right.

1364
01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:39,800
Speaker 5: And but there's so many people who believe, you know,

1365
01:13:39,880 --> 01:13:42,880
Speaker 5: maybe maybe it's a somebody you follow on X or

1366
01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:47,080
Speaker 5: YouTube that you've maybe been watching or listening to for years,

1367
01:13:47,560 --> 01:13:50,000
Speaker 5: and so you kind of believe everything that comes out

1368
01:13:50,000 --> 01:13:53,439
Speaker 5: of their mouth, and they say X is responsible for

1369
01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:56,559
Speaker 5: this crime, and you believe it, and they you know,

1370
01:13:57,320 --> 01:14:01,120
Speaker 5: I've even seen cases where they're literally making evidence up

1371
01:14:01,160 --> 01:14:03,040
Speaker 5: and presenting it or putting it.

1372
01:14:03,040 --> 01:14:05,960
Speaker 2: On social media as facts so that they could regurgitate

1373
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:06,639
Speaker 2: it in court.

1374
01:14:07,120 --> 01:14:09,160
Speaker 3: Right. Scary.

1375
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:11,680
Speaker 4: I think it can be really yeah, I think it

1376
01:14:11,720 --> 01:14:15,240
Speaker 4: can be really dangerous and even in the Brian Kolberger case,

1377
01:14:15,320 --> 01:14:17,720
Speaker 4: which you just mentioned that we'll be coming up, it

1378
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:22,920
Speaker 4: was social media that really spread the utter lie that

1379
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:25,080
Speaker 4: the poor guy who was doing his job at the

1380
01:14:25,080 --> 01:14:30,200
Speaker 4: food truck the night that these four college students, you know,

1381
01:14:30,240 --> 01:14:34,200
Speaker 4: had their lives ended, and it can create absolute witch

1382
01:14:34,280 --> 01:14:38,960
Speaker 4: hunts that are dangerous and body to your point, absolutely

1383
01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:40,160
Speaker 4: contained a jury.

1384
01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:41,360
Speaker 3: Right, It's so true.

1385
01:14:41,600 --> 01:14:44,439
Speaker 2: I always say, when in doubt, let's put that person

1386
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:47,240
Speaker 2: in front of Courtney Armstrong herself, because she's a human

1387
01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:50,400
Speaker 2: lie detector. Is she sometimes oh yeah, I'm a supersucker

1388
01:14:50,520 --> 01:14:52,040
Speaker 2: and then leave something.

1389
01:14:52,080 --> 01:14:53,960
Speaker 3: I'll be like, oh yeah, they seem amazing, and.

1390
01:14:53,880 --> 01:14:57,880
Speaker 2: Courtney's like and by the way, she's always right and

1391
01:14:58,160 --> 01:14:58,880
Speaker 2: always wrong.

1392
01:15:01,200 --> 01:15:03,240
Speaker 5: I need to take the Courtney with me out on

1393
01:15:03,400 --> 01:15:07,240
Speaker 5: my social Literally, she can sniff it out pretty well.

1394
01:15:07,360 --> 01:15:11,800
Speaker 2: You know how I'm not in a cult is pretty extraordinary.

1395
01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:15,320
Speaker 2: But listen, we're gonna cover all that and more so. Obviously,

1396
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:19,479
Speaker 2: Brian Coburger, the trial is upon us. He's looking for

1397
01:15:19,520 --> 01:15:23,000
Speaker 2: a delay, so we'll have some new information tomorrow. And also,

1398
01:15:23,120 --> 01:15:27,080
Speaker 2: Karen Reid watching we are standing by, definitely want to

1399
01:15:27,080 --> 01:15:28,800
Speaker 2: hear from you all. So make sure you wait in

1400
01:15:29,160 --> 01:15:32,519
Speaker 2: eight eight eight three one crime, True Crime, Tonight, good Night,