WEBVTT - Trump Wants Greenland 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:07.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:13.360 As the Trump administration asserts its control over Venezuelan oil 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:18.560 following the stunning capture of ousted President Nicholas Maduro, President 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:23.640 Trump has set his sights elsewhere on Greenland, a strategic 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:27.560 Arctic island that is a self governing territory of Denmark. 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:32.760 We need Greenland from a national security to situation. It's 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:38.360 so strategic. Right now, Greenland is covered with Russian and Chinese. 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:39.120 Ships all over the place. 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:43.960 We need Greenland from the standpoint of national security, and 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:45.800 Denmark is not going to be able. 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:45.919 To do it. 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:51.000 Trump has been talking about acquiring Greenland since its first term, 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:54.560 but this time it may be more than just rhetoric. 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:57.880 The White House has said that all options are on 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:02.480 the table, including using the military, Although Secretary of State 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:05.959 Marco Rubio told a group of lawmakers that it was 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:11.880 the administration's intention to eventually buy Greenland. European leaders have 0:01:12.000 --> 0:01:16.920 expressed concerns about a possible takeover. Back In April, Danish 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:21.040 Prime Minister Meta Frederickson said that Greenland is not for 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:25.760 sale and the US needs to respect its borders and sovereignty. 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:32.520 You cannot annex another country, not even with an argument 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:35.160 about international security. 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:39.840 Joining me is an expert in international law. Monica Hakimi 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:43.200 a professor at Columbia Law School. She was formerly an 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:45.920 attorney in the Office of the Legal Advisor in the 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:50.560 US State Department. Monica, the capture of Maduro has sort 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:55.120 of set the stage for the latest talk by Trump 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:59.560 about acquiring Greenland. So let's start with Maduro and tell 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:02.600 us whether has capture violated international law. 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:05.520 As a matter of international law, I think there's really 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:09.000 no question that the capture of Maduro was unlawful, and 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:13.800 that's because it involves the enforcement powers of the United 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:16.320 States in the territory of another state, Venezuela. 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:21.160 In this case. International law does provide limited circumstances in 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:23.840 which such exercises of power are lawful, but none of 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:25.680 them applies in this case. 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:31.359 The Trump administration is indicating that it's going to run Venezuela. 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:33.600 I don't know if that is even going to happen, 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:37.440 because it seems like the vice president is in control 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:40.400 right now. I mean, is this about a regime change. 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:44.280 It's really hard to know what the administration intends to 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:47.400 do or in what way. I'm not sure regime changes 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:50.160 exactly the right way to describe what's happening, because, as 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:53.280 you say, a member of the regime is still now 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:56.800 running the country, and the regime itself is largely in place, 0:02:56.880 --> 0:03:00.840 even if the singular leader has been removed. But in 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:05.360 any event, it would be again unlawful for the United 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:10.840 States to assert its authority or coercive power in Venezuela 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:13.320 to tell that state how to run its own country. 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:19.000 Talking about the broader questions here, it seems that the 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:23.800 Trump administration and President Trump don't want to stop at Venezuela. 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:29.720 On Saturday he was talking about problems with Colombia and Cuba, 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:34.840 and now the administration is being completely open about wanting 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:37.800 to acquire Greenland. How concerning is. 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:43.600 That this claim on Greenland in particular is especially disturbing 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:46.720 because it is part of an increasing trend in which 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:50.600 states that have the raw power to take the territory 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:53.160 of another state are claiming that they will do so. 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:55.160 Of course, this is exactly. 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:59.760 What President Putin of Russia did in Ukraine. It's also 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:04.280 embedded in the conflict between Iran and its proxy groups 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:07.840 on the one hand, and Israel and the Palestinians on 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:13.120 the other hand, and so it's a deeply, deeply corrosive move. 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:18.560 It is likely to trigger further actions to this effect. 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:21.239 It's not just the United States in Russia and states 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:23.000 in the Middle East or entities in the Middle East 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:25.360 that want to eliminate other states off the. 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:27.880 Map or acquired territory from other states. 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:31.680 So we've seen China increasingly being assertive with its neighbors 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:34.240 in the East and South China Sea, and in the Himalayas, 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:38.760 we're seeing Morocco increasingly a certain control over Western Sahara, 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:40.440 which is a portion of the territory that does not 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:44.919 technically belong to it. And these claims for territorial aggression 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:50.640 and annexation really undercut the fundamental principle of the international 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:53.840 legal and political order since World War Two, which is 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:57.360 that each state is entitled to establish its authority in 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:00.920 its own borders as defined by international law, territorial and 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:04.200 maritime borders, and that it ought to be given priority 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:05.520 in those spaces. 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:09.080 The White House says it's considering a range of options 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:13.039 for acquiring Greenland. What are the legal ways that it 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:13.640 could do that. 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:18.320 The possibility exists for one state to enter into an 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:23.760 agreement with another not subject to coercion, where there's a 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:27.760 consentual arrangement for the transfer of territory. There's no indication 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:30.560 at all that any of these entities, which are being 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:34.279 subjected to coercion by more powerful states, is interested in 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:37.040 selling part of its territorial and maritime space. 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:42.520 President Trump has said, we need greenland for our national security. 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:45.800 But if you look at what's happening in Venezuela, it's 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:49.240 not about drugs coming into the United States from that country. 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:53.320 It's all about the oil in Venezuela, and in Ukraine, 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:56.480 the US signed a deal after it got access to 0:05:56.560 --> 0:06:01.760 that country's mineral resources, and Lynn has what's been called 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:07.760 a treasure trove of untapped raw materials. So I wonder 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:12.839 if the goal is really national security or it's about 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:16.920 getting access to their oil and gas reserves and their 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:18.919 mineral deposits and the like. 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:20.200 Yeah, I think. 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:23.719 There's been an increasing move and this is not to 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:26.839 be honest, entirely specific to the Trump administration, but there's 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:30.560 been an increasing move in the United States and elsewhere 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:38.400 to tie together economic security with national security, with maritime 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:42.640 security and channels for the movement of goods and people 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:46.279 and services across the globe. And I think what we're seeing, 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:50.360 and this would connect the actions in South America with 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:52.400 the claims on Greenland, and you might remember there were 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:56.000 earlier claims about acquiring Canada as well. It's an effort 0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:58.000 to say, like this is our zone. We are going 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:03.320 to control this entire space, including the resources in this space. 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:06.880 And you China might be able to take Asia and Russia, 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:08.960 you might be able to take Europe or at least 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:12.200 part of Europe, but we are defining the space over 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:14.600 which we are going to have dominance. And that, it 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:18.280 seems to me, is a way of explaining the Trump 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:22.080 administration's actions in a number of different theaters, as well 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:24.120 as the actions of China and Russia. 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:28.320 You mentioned Canada and Trump saying he wanted to make 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:32.280 it the fifty first state. He's also threatened to attack 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:36.600 Panama to supposedly keep China from exerting influence over the 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:41.400 Panama Canal, and on Saturday, he even warned that we 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:45.800 have to do something about Mexico because the president is 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:50.000 unable to clamp down on the drug Card tells so 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:54.960 now Trump appears to be targeting even historic allies of 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:56.360 the United States. 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:01.080 Yes, I think the United States is we're fundamentally to 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:05.160 transform the terms based on which states interact and relate 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:07.000 to one another on the world stage. 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:09.960 And again it's not just the United States that is 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:10.520 doing this. 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:13.920 So I think Russia's invasion of Ukraine was an action 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:16.960 to say, look, we're no longer going to recognize Ukraine 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:20.080 as an independent state, and we are going to change 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:22.640 the terms based on which we interact with our near neighbors. 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:25.400 And I think that's also what China is doing. But 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:30.720 because the United States has a long history of trying 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:34.400 to sustain this international legal and political order that is 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:39.439 structured around separate and semi independent states or interdependent states, 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:42.680 the moves by the United States basically to say, now 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:45.560 we're also participating in this game, and we are just 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:49.040 going to exert our raw power wherever we can, and 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:53.480 especially in our defined space, to demand that others do 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:55.680 as we tell them without regard for what they might 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:59.000 insist on doing themselves. That is a massive shift, in 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:01.760 my view, relative to where we were, I don't know, 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:04.319 five ten years ago, Monica. 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:08.400 Can you put this into context historically? Is this similar 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:12.559 to other actions the US has taken or different. 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:15.480 Well, there is a relatively long history of the United 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:18.760 States intervening in various ways in the affairs of Latin 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:21.520 American countries as well as countries and other parts of 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:25.680 the world. But what is significant and I think unique 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:29.800 about the current moment is that it's openly claiming the 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:36.080 right to displace the state authorities basically across the globe 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:39.400 or wherever it's not pleased with how the governments are 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:44.280 running their own countries and not at all claiming to 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:48.439 do so in the service of or through the mechanisms 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:53.240 of international law, which is collectively made and which is 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:57.000 sort of applied through collective processes that at the very 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:01.000 least provide some transparency about what has happened, some reason 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:04.360 giving about what is happening, the opportunity for others to 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:06.720 express their voice and their agency about. 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:08.000 What they want in the exchange. 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:11.160 And so we're just seeing a fundamental shift away from 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:15.959 let's say, legalized international relations toward a much more power based, 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:17.960 coercive set of interactions. 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:22.079 Secretary of State Marco Rubio has the firm that the 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:26.040 move was sort of a revised play on the nineteenth 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:29.600 century Monroe doctrine do you agree with that and what 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:32.040 are the implications. 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:32.000 It seems to be? 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:36.120 And I think that we've seen this administration say repeatedly 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:39.880 in various ways that it's trying to revive some kind 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:43.240 of Monroe doctrine, and I think the implications are exactly 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:46.000 as I described, which are that the United States will 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:51.160 increasingly just use its coercive power to dominate those around it, 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:52.040 particularly in the. 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:54.959 Western hemisphere, or what it defines is its space. 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:57.840 Coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show, I'll continue 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:03.080 this conversation with Columbia Laws professor Monica Hakimi. Are these 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:07.480 moves by the Trump administration a complete repudiation of the 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:11.960 world order that has defined US foreign policy since the 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:15.640 Cold War? I'm June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg. 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:22.240 President Trump and his advisors are discussing a range of 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:27.520 options to acquire Greenland, a self governing territory of Denmark. 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:33.720 Those options include military action. In response, European nations released 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:37.720 a joint statement saying security in the Arctic must be 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:43.520 achieved collectively with NATO allies, including the United States. Secretary 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:46.440 of State Marco Rubio says he plans to meet with 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:51.480 Danish officials next week to discuss the US interest in Greenland. 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:54.960 But will Denmark's answer be any different from that of 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:59.440 the Danish Prime Minister Metefredericson in April, when a US 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:04.760 delegates that included Vice President JD. Vance visited Greenland and 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:06.439 got a frosty reception. 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.320 When you demand to take over a part of the 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:15.400 Kingdoms of Denmark territory, When we are met by pressure 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:21.160 and by threats from our closest ally, what are we 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:24.760 to believe in about the country that we have admired 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:32.720 for so many years. National borders, sovereignty of states, and 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:38.040 our integrity. These are all principle rooted in international law. 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:43.880 These are fundamental principles formed after the Second World War 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:48.240 so that small countries don't have to fear big ones. 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:52.240 But is that world order changing and how much can 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:56.160 international law play a part today? I've been talking to 0:12:56.240 --> 0:13:00.839 an expert in international law, Monica Hakimi, a professor at 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:05.800 Columbia Law School. Monica. President Trump has attacked seven countries 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:13.800 since returning to office. There were strikes in Somalia, Nigeria, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:18.360 and now in Venezuela, as well as in international waters. 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:22.400 There was nothing done in Congress, and there was nothing 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:27.040 done internationally. I mean, Stephen Miller, a top aid to 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:33.280 President Trump, actually said on CNN yesterday that Greenland rightfully 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:37.400 belongs to the United States and quote, nobody's going to 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:41.559 fight the United States militarily over the future of Greenland. 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:44.440 Yeah, I think that's an open question. 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:48.760 You know. One of the common criticisms of international law 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:53.720 is that it's not enforceable or not easily enforceable against 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:57.360 powerful states and in this case, the United States, and 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:00.600 that it doesn't therefore constrain powerful state in the same 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:02.960 way that it constrains weaker states. I think there's no 0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:06.240 way to know actually to what extent the United States 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:09.440 has historically been constrained by international law and to what 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:13.599 extent it's just chosen a path that has been more consistent. 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:16.559 With international law. But in any event, I think. 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:20.640 The real change now is not so much that international 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:25.440 law has become has suddenly become unenforceable against the United States, but. 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:27.800 Rather that the United States. 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:32.760 Is no longer itself committed to upholding the international legal system. 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:36.280 And that is a significant shift, because the United States 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.400 has actually, even as it has historically acted in various 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:44.120 ways that have undermined specific norms in international law. It 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:47.200 has also historically done an enormous amount to try to 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:51.480 bolster this entire system, and with that retreat from its 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:54.360 own commitment to the legal system, the question is, is 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:56.440 anyone capable of filling that gap? 0:14:57.040 --> 0:14:59.560 And if so, who, in out what terms? 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:03.280 Is that alternative party going to be exercising its power 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:06.240 with or without international law? And if not, we're just 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.480 going to live in a world in which it's much 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:13.160 harder to understand what those who exercise power are doing 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:15.720 and why. Because one of the things that international law does, 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:18.840 no matter what else it does, is clarify the terms 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:21.680 based on which states and other actors interact on the 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:23.080 world stage. 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:26.320 Let's talk for a moment about NATO, and you know 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:29.920 what the power or lack of power is there. Chomp 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:33.960 has been pulling back from NATO, and today he criticized 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:37.880 it again. Does NATO have any role to play here? 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:43.280 The action against Greenland is in many ways causing a 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:45.040 deep fissure within NATO. 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:47.200 And I say that because, of course Denmark is a 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:47.720 NATO state. 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:50.520 It's historically been a very strong military ally of the 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:55.560 United States, and so one NATO country directly attacking another 0:15:55.640 --> 0:16:00.160 NATO country just undermines the entire arrangement, which is that 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:04.040 these countries are supposed to act collectively in their mutual 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:08.080 defense and cooperatively in their mutual defense. Now, to answer 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:11.400 your question more specifically, if the United States were to 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:16.120 attack and try to acquire Greenland, other NATO countries could 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:20.280 come to Denmark's defense against the United States, that would 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:23.560 be a deep, deep fissure again within NATO, and it 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:27.080 would raise again the question that you asked earlier about 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:32.000 whether any other state could actually enforce Denmark's rights against 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:34.960 the United States given the overwhelming military power of the 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:35.760 United States. 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:38.960 I mean, do you think that NATO's days are numbered. 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:44.400 I've been worried for some time actually that NATO's days are, 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:46.840 if not numbered, that NATO is going to have to 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:52.040 transform itself to preserve its relevance and its saliens and quick. Frankly, 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:55.280 it's been the position of the United States for well 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:58.800 over a decade, nearing two decades, that the United States 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:03.560 cannot continue to to provide the bulk of support for 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:06.880 NATO's operations. That European states had to do more. Now 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:10.080 that has become increasingly obvious over the course of the 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:14.439 second Trump administration, and the question I guess is whether 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:18.960 NATO states can collectively figure out how to reconstitute themselves 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:22.960 in a way that is responsive to the Trump administration's 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:27.320 new moves, but still protective of the entire group of 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:29.280 states that currently comprise it. 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:34.320 The United Nations Security Council held an emergency meeting on Monday. 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:37.280 Because of the way the Security Council is set up, 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:41.439 with the members having veto power, it seems unlikely that 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:45.440 anything useful is going to come out of the Security Council. 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:49.080 I mean, what's the point of the United Nations today. 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:53.240 One of the essential components of the United Nations Security 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:57.080 Council is that it is comprised of the five victors 0:17:57.119 --> 0:17:59.080 of World War Two as well as others. But those 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:02.720 five members of veto power, as you say, and during 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:06.240 the Cold War, the Security Council was largely stalled out 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:09.199 because the United States and the Soviet Union could not 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:13.600 agree to make decisions really through the Security Council. Nevertheless, 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:16.800 I think some would say that the Security Council provided 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:21.160 a useful venue for these two great powers who were very, 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:24.119 very severely in odds with one another to figure out 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:27.560 what the other was doing, and at least to talk 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:31.080 to one another on terms that were sort of detached 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:34.399 from the conflicts that were playing out on the ground, 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:37.160 whether hot or cold. After the end of the Cold War, 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:39.639 the Security Council was sort of revitalized and it became 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:44.080 a really important mechanism for dealing with security threats around 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:46.560 the world. Now again, we're going to a position where 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:50.040 making decisions through the Security Council will be very, very 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:53.880 difficult because of the geopolitical dynamics. Still, it might be 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:57.960 a useful venue for those who want to understand what 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:01.159 is happening or to express their own voice about what 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:04.520 is happening, to do so and at least for those 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:07.960 views to be aired and in that way serve as 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:11.560 some kind of accountability mechanism or at least transparency about 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:12.840 what their positions are. 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:18.560 As you mentioned, Russia invaded Ukraine. China might use this 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:23.640 as a template to eventually go after Taiwan. I mean, 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:27.760 during the Trump administration the next three years, are we 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.560 looking at a changing world order? 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:32.040 I think absolutely. 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:36.040 I think I'm on record as having said that the 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:40.199 old world order, however one defined it is really no 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:43.800 longer available to us, and it's not just the United 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:46.399 States that's making that decision. The United States is of 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:50.000 course responding to a broader set of global trends, including 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:53.560 the limits of its own security umbrella, as was evidenced 0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:57.280 by you know, Russia's in China's actions that predated the 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:00.760 second Trump administration, as well as Iraq. So I do 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:05.120 think we are moving toward an entirely different world order, 0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:07.240 and that part of what's happening right now in these 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:12.480 conflicts is that states are and other entities are basically 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:15.880 defining the terms based on which any future order would 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:19.200 have to be created. And there's a question about how 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:21.600 different the next world order, if there is going to 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:24.000 be some world order, will be relative to the one 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:25.000 that we're leaving behind. 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:26.840 How different do you think it'll be. 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:29.480 I think it's going to be dramatically different, and I 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:31.480 think it's going to be different in ways that are 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:36.439 far worse for a greater number of people around the world. 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:39.879 I think if one pays attention to the legal and 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:42.600 political trends over the past couple of years, one sees 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:45.919 a few things. The first is a reduction in the 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:50.000 commitment to states as states, so we've seen that again 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:53.160 with the denial of the authority of states in many 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:57.919 parts of the world Ukraine, Venezuela, Denmark over Greenland. The 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:03.440 second is backlash against the humanitarian impulses of international law. 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:06.160 So we're seeing in many conflicts around the world an 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:11.679 increased disregard for protecting civilians for humanity, as well as, 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:15.399 in more limited ways, a backlash from human rights law 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:17.720 more generally, as it applies even in peace time, not 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:21.000 only in conflicts. The third, I would say, is a 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:24.080 retreat in the legalization of international affairs. Again, I think 0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:31.959 legalization is extremely important for reasons of transparency, accountability, basic coordination, 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:36.399 and understanding of what is happening around us, no matter 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:40.199 to what extent it constrains or empowers particular entities. And 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:44.000 then finally, we're seeing an increased resort to force in 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:47.640 other forms of coercion to structure international affairs. These are 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:51.919 trends that again predated the Trump administration, but they are 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:56.560 trends that are being accelerated by the Trump administration. And 0:21:56.600 --> 0:22:01.280 they're all trends that, in my view, reflect a retreat 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:06.719 from humanity and from basic ideas about governance and the 0:22:06.760 --> 0:22:08.879 service of the general good. 0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:14.720 Former President Joe Biden embraced NATO. Now we have President 0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:19.879 Trump with an anti NATO stance. If the next president 0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:25.280 wants to embrace NATO, will that change anything? Considering the 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:28.320 new world order that you just described. 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:32.760 I don't think the option is available to go back 0:22:32.880 --> 0:22:37.200 to what existed before. And actually, I myself was quite 0:22:37.200 --> 0:22:41.560 critical of the Biden administration for not seeing the writing 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:44.960 on the wall and trying to put the world in 0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:49.520 a better position than it was when he left office, 0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:54.479 for what was inevitably going to be continued resistance to 0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:59.359 the US power structure that existed in the post Cold 0:22:59.359 --> 0:23:02.679 War period. And so, you know, I don't think a 0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:06.359 new administration could try to revive NATO and create the 0:23:06.400 --> 0:23:10.680 security that once existed through NATO. I think any new 0:23:10.680 --> 0:23:14.000 administration would have to deal with the hand that will 0:23:14.000 --> 0:23:17.160 have been created over the next three, if not more years. 0:23:17.560 --> 0:23:20.720 This has been a really fascinating conversation. Thanks so much, 0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:24.800 Monica for sharing your insights with us. That's Professor Monica 0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:27.879 Hakemi of Columbia Law School coming up next on the 0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:31.359 Bloomberg Law Show. It's the state that sued the Trump 0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:35.080 administration more than any other. Get ready for the twenty 0:23:35.119 --> 0:23:39.680 twenty six court battles between California and Trump. I'm June 0:23:39.680 --> 0:23:45.639 Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg. California's response to the 0:23:45.640 --> 0:23:50.480 Trump administration has prompted a flood of litigation, with several 0:23:50.600 --> 0:23:54.119 major hearings over the line between state law and federal 0:23:54.160 --> 0:23:58.560 authority teed up for hearings early this year. At stake 0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:02.040 are hundreds of billions of dollars in federal funds and 0:24:02.080 --> 0:24:07.880 the state's ability to steer policy in key areas including education, health, 0:24:07.920 --> 0:24:13.280 and infrastructure. Joining me is Bloomberg Law's correspondent for Los Angeles, 0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:18.920 Mayaespodo California in the first Trump administration and in this 0:24:19.040 --> 0:24:24.119 Trump administration has a sort of history of bringing lawsuits 0:24:24.320 --> 0:24:30.399 against the administration, and California's Attorney General Rob Banta often 0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:34.639 seems to be leading the charge in states suing the 0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:35.600 Trump administration. 0:24:36.200 --> 0:24:40.880 Right, It's true. During the start of President Trump's second presidency, 0:24:41.119 --> 0:24:46.680 the California Legislature convened and pumped twenty five million dollars 0:24:46.760 --> 0:24:50.560 into Bonton's office, readying for another round of those fights. 0:24:50.560 --> 0:24:51.840 From the first time. 0:24:52.680 --> 0:24:56.199 The court battles that gained a lot of attention in 0:24:56.320 --> 0:25:01.200 twenty twenty five, were centered on Trump's sending troops into 0:25:01.480 --> 0:25:04.199 LA and federal funding cuts. 0:25:04.760 --> 0:25:06.240 Are those suits still. 0:25:06.000 --> 0:25:08.440 Going on or have they been settled? 0:25:09.160 --> 0:25:13.920 Many of the federal funding related lawsuits are still working 0:25:14.000 --> 0:25:18.000