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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome

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Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy V.

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Speaker 1: Wilson and Tracy as you know, back in late February,

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Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to get invited to visit the

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Speaker 1: set of the like a film Missing Link, which is

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Speaker 1: coming out this week. We don't usually cover current film

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Speaker 1: releases on the show, which any of our regular listeners

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Speaker 1: would know, but I have been wanting to talk a

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Speaker 1: bit about the history of stop motion animation for a while. Um.

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Speaker 1: As you may recall, I had a show last year

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Speaker 1: that was ran for a season called Drawn, which is

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Speaker 1: about animation, and we were thinking, if we do more seasons,

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Speaker 1: we would get to stop motion, and we didn't end

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Speaker 1: up doing more seasons, so it's just been lurking there

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Speaker 1: in my head. Uh. And Missing Link is kind of

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Speaker 1: a perfect fit because it is a historical film essentially,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a period piece, still very fun. Um. In

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Speaker 1: case you don't know, they are the people that did

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Speaker 1: Coraline and Box Trolls and Para Norman and Cuba and

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Speaker 1: The Two Strings, and now this is their fifth film,

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Speaker 1: So I reached out to them since this had some

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Speaker 1: some potential in the history realm, and I asked if

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Speaker 1: they would be willing to be part of an episode

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Speaker 1: about stop motion and talk about their film in a

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Speaker 1: historical context. They were all super game, So I headed

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Speaker 1: out to their studios just outside of Portland had the

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Speaker 1: time of my life getting to ugle all of the

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Speaker 1: incredible artistry that goes into making one of their films.

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Speaker 1: It was absolute heaven for me. That's like, uh, some

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Speaker 1: sort of paradise. It was just beautiful and everyone there

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Speaker 1: is super fun, so it was super beautiful. So, uh,

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Speaker 1: that's what led to this episode. And here's how it's

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Speaker 1: going to play out. So first you'll have a fairly

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Speaker 1: normal episode of history class, Tracy and I are gonna

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Speaker 1: give a brief history of stop motion, and then at

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Speaker 1: the end there are for short interviews with people from

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Speaker 1: the team at like talking as I said, about their film,

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Speaker 1: both in the context of history, uh, in terms of

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Speaker 1: stop motions history and in context of the history that

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Speaker 1: they are recreating on the screen, but in a stylized way.

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Speaker 1: So that means you are getting a supersized episode today. Yep,

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Speaker 1: if you're one of those people that use their show

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Speaker 1: to run because you're like, they're always about thirty to

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Speaker 1: thirty five minutes, it will run long, and that in mind,

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Speaker 1: you're running and going where am I? I don't recognize

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Speaker 1: these houses at all? Where do I live? So just

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Speaker 1: in case you're like, stop motion refresh my memory. That

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Speaker 1: is made by taking still photographs of objects and then

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Speaker 1: shifting the poses of those objects just ever so slightly

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Speaker 1: for each frame, and then when you run those frames

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Speaker 1: together and play them sequentially, it creates the illusion of movement.

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Speaker 1: So you can string a whole whole bunch of these

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Speaker 1: together and you get a film. This is a painstaking process,

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Speaker 1: and even today, with lots of technology available to make

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Speaker 1: this more efficient, you still only get about three seconds

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Speaker 1: of film for a day's work on it. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think that's why I like. It's a very unique type

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Speaker 1: of artists that is drawn to this as their their work.

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Speaker 1: And it is often kind of difficult to pinpoint the

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Speaker 1: exact moment when any new art form or concept is

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Speaker 1: truly born, and that holds true for stop motion. But

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Speaker 1: there is one particularly charming legend about it. The story

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Speaker 1: goes that while looking at a piece of film, that

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Speaker 1: he had shot. George Melliers noted that there was a

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Speaker 1: point where the film had gotten stuck moving through the camera,

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Speaker 1: and as a result, there was an illusion that the

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Speaker 1: people and the vehicles on screen had just teleported across

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Speaker 1: the frame. You may remember Malias from our two parter

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Speaker 1: on the Lumiar Brothers, and from this point he was

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Speaker 1: just so fascinated with the idea of stopping the camera,

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Speaker 1: manipulating the scene, and then picking up filming to achieve

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Speaker 1: some similar effects on purpose. And we will be talking

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Speaker 1: more about his most famous entry into this whole genre

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Speaker 1: in a little bit. But Malias was not the only

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Speaker 1: person testing the limits of what a film camera could do.

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Speaker 1: This was, after all, a fairly new technology, so plenty

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Speaker 1: of ingenious and creative people were toying with it. Thomas

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Speaker 1: Edison developed the kinetoscope in eighteen ninety and the Lumierres

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Speaker 1: created their cinematograph in so this was really the dawn

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Speaker 1: of a new era in storytelling. And while the story

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Speaker 1: of the French filmmaker stumbling onto the idea of stop

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Speaker 1: motion is fun, other people were kind of having their

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Speaker 1: own Eureka moments as they played with what a film

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Speaker 1: camera could do. The Humpty Dumpty Circus as credited as

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Speaker 1: being the first true stop motion animation film. This was

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Speaker 1: created by Albert E. Smith and J. Stuart Blackton. Regular

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Speaker 1: listeners may recall Blackton's name for our windsor mackay episodes.

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Speaker 1: This is one of those episodes that just ties together

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Speaker 1: so much in our archive into one episode. He was

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Speaker 1: the photography supervisor on McKay's first cartoon, which took the

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Speaker 1: character of Little Nemo from comics into film, and The

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Speaker 1: Humpty Dumpty Circus used children's toys to tell a short

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Speaker 1: full story about the circus. But the film itself is

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Speaker 1: lost to time, there are still images from it. Maybe

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Speaker 1: the animated short was named for the play set that

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Speaker 1: the animators used for the action that was a product

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Speaker 1: of the Show and Hut company. So there has been

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Speaker 1: some debate about whether, particularly the image that's often used

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Speaker 1: as an example of a frame from the film is

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Speaker 1: actually just a promotional photo from the company that they

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Speaker 1: were using to market their toys. And blacked In collaborated

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Speaker 1: with Edison to make the enchanted drawing. That's the first

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Speaker 1: time animation was captured on standard film. This was the

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Speaker 1: predecessor to his nine six film Humorous Phases of Funny

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Speaker 1: Faces and The Enchanted Drawing. The shot includes the animator.

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Speaker 1: He's featured in almost full figure as the main character,

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Speaker 1: and then stop motion is used as he creates a

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Speaker 1: drawing on a large sketch pad. This is essentially a

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Speaker 1: capture of the Vaudeville lightning sketch act that we talked

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Speaker 1: about in our Windsor Mackay episode, but there are elements

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Speaker 1: that are played up for humor using stop motion as well.

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Speaker 1: And then in Humorous Phases of Funny Faces, the screen

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Speaker 1: is filled entirely by the chalkboard and only the artist

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Speaker 1: hands are seen as he draws the characters, which then

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Speaker 1: come to life on their own and engage in all

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Speaker 1: manner of antics. Humorous Phases uses a lot more stop

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Speaker 1: motion than The Enchanted Drawing. Blackton continued to explore the

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Speaker 1: medium and in nineteen o nine made a five minute

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Speaker 1: film called Princess Nicotine or the Smoke Ferry, which featured

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Speaker 1: an early example of product placement was sweet corporal cigarettes

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Speaker 1: that were used in the picture and the boxes on

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Speaker 1: the screen with fairies kind of flitting about it. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about it again, uh in a moment, but

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Speaker 1: early animation was not for children. Um In two director

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Speaker 1: Edwin Porter, working for Thomas Edison and Edison, I should

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Speaker 1: point out, was kind of involved in a lot of

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Speaker 1: these different projects, made a short film titled Fun in

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Speaker 1: a Bakery Shop and this is also a mix of

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Speaker 1: live action and stop motion, and in it, a baker

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Speaker 1: throws a large wad of dough at a rat as

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Speaker 1: it climbs up a wall and it traps the roadent.

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Speaker 1: But then the baker uses the dough to sculpture what

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Speaker 1: he has then created this mass on the wall into

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Speaker 1: various faces, adding more and more as he goes, until

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Speaker 1: two other bakers arrive and they dump him into a

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Speaker 1: barrel of flour. It's short, it only runs about ninety seconds,

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Speaker 1: but it was touted by the Edison company in their

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Speaker 1: catalog as a quote side splitter. It's cute. I don't

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Speaker 1: know that, I split my sides laughing. That same year

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Speaker 1: that Fun in a Bakery Shop was made, a much

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Speaker 1: more well known entry was made into stop motion, and

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Speaker 1: that was La Voyage Dlalun, which is a trip to

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Speaker 1: the Moon. This was George Malia's film that most people

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Speaker 1: think of when they think of early stop motion animation,

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Speaker 1: and really, when they think of him, you can probably

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Speaker 1: conjure up the image of the face of the moon

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Speaker 1: with a rocket slammed into one of the eyes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Millia has played with this forever oath in using things

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Speaker 1: that were not humans and using humans in stop motion

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Speaker 1: pretty much from that point on. The Cameraman's Revenge was

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Speaker 1: made in nineteen twelve by Polish animator Ladies Lastovich, and

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Speaker 1: the opening intertitle of it reads quote Mr and Mrs

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Speaker 1: Beatle have to calm a home life. Mr Beatle is

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Speaker 1: restless and makes frequent trips to the city. Again clearly

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Speaker 1: not for children. Yeah. Mr Beatle's favorite hang out in

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Speaker 1: the city is a nightclub and it's called the Gay Dragonfly.

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Speaker 1: He has a favorite dancer there, and things unspool very dramatically.

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Speaker 1: Mr Beatle and the Dragonfly dancer are romantically involved, but

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Speaker 1: Miss Dragonfly also has another would be suitor in the

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Speaker 1: form of a grasshopper. The grasshopper is also a cameraman

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Speaker 1: who films this pair when they're together to later show

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Speaker 1: at the cinema. And then it turns out that Mrs

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Speaker 1: Beatle also has her own paramore, The beatles marriage seems

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Speaker 1: pretty complicated. It really does. Uh. The entire plot is

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Speaker 1: played out using not puppets, but insects, and that is

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Speaker 1: because Uh. Starovich was the director of a Museum of

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Speaker 1: Natural History, and he had initially developed a technique to

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Speaker 1: animate insects in order to recreate things like the drama

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Speaker 1: of two stag beetles fighting, and then he realized he

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Speaker 1: could film fictional narratives with his insect puppets, and the

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Speaker 1: work that he did was really intricate and groundbreaking. He

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Speaker 1: would recreate their legs with wire and then carefully connect

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Speaker 1: them to the insect bodies in ways that looked true

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Speaker 1: to life if you knew how insects bodies worked. But

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Speaker 1: it also allowed for manipulation from shot to shots, so

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Speaker 1: they could kind of be transmogrified into more human activities.

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Speaker 1: Starovitch went on to direct dozens of stop motion shorts,

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Speaker 1: including a nineteen thirty film called The Tail of the Fox,

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Speaker 1: which became the first feature length film starring puppets, and

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Speaker 1: Starovitch's nineteen thirty three film titled The Mascot Toys Come

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Speaker 1: to Life and a Little Girl's Plush Dog Goes on

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Speaker 1: Adventure and a quest to get her an orange and

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Speaker 1: that's something that she dearly wants but that our mother

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Speaker 1: can't afford. Sounds a little like toy story, and that's

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Speaker 1: a valid comparison. It even includes harrowing traffic scenes where

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Speaker 1: the toys in peril. It's also a little creepy and

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Speaker 1: disturbing and has some adult situations in it. Uh stare

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Speaker 1: if it should be an interesting episode on his own

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Speaker 1: and could be one day. Yeah, he's on my list

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Speaker 1: for sure. Uh yes, some of the toys behaving very

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Speaker 1: grown up waste, it's all to say. The nineteen teens

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Speaker 1: featured early use of claymation, as Helena Smith Dayton, a

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Speaker 1: New York sculptor, began to explore the medium of stop motion,

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Speaker 1: and she actually ran an evening of shorts at the

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Speaker 1: Strand Theater on March nine, seventeen titled Animated Sculpture. And

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Speaker 1: while Dayton contributed to a completely new avenue of technique

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Speaker 1: and animation using these clay figures that could be manipulated

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Speaker 1: from shot to shot, her work is rarely discussed in

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Speaker 1: depth because there don't here to be any surviving copies

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Speaker 1: of her films. In the mid nineteen twenties came the

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Speaker 1: first feature length animated film, The Adventures of Prince Ahmed

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Speaker 1: by previous podcast subject Lata Rehineger. As we discussed in

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Speaker 1: that too, part her work was cut out animation done

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Speaker 1: in a silhouette style. And this cut out animation is

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Speaker 1: still a form of stop motion, but of course it

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Speaker 1: uses flat paper instead of armatured puppetry. And we're about

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Speaker 1: to touch on a very influential innovator in stop motion.

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Speaker 1: But before we do, we're going to take a quick

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Speaker 1: break and hear from one of the sponsors that keep

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Speaker 1: stuff you missed in history class going in. One of

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Speaker 1: the great names in stop motion pioneering emerged with the

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Speaker 1: film The Lost World, which was adapted from the novel

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Speaker 1: by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and that was animated by

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Speaker 1: Willis O'Brien. The film was directed by Harry o Hoyt,

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Speaker 1: but O'Brien created the mind blowing for the time dinosaur sequences.

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Speaker 1: O'Brien had been working in short films before The Lost World,

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Speaker 1: including a series for Thomas Edison, marked his entry into

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Speaker 1: feature films, and that continued into the nineteen sixties. His

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Speaker 1: work includes the nineteen thirty three version of King Kong,

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Speaker 1: the nineteen forty nine Mighty Joe Young, and even model

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Speaker 1: work on the nineteen sixty remake of The Lost World.

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Speaker 1: O'Brien's influence reaches far beyond his own films. However, he

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Speaker 1: mentored another of the biggest names in stop motion history,

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Speaker 1: and that is Ray harry Housen. After seeing O'Brien's work

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Speaker 1: in King Kong, harry Housen was inspired and connected with

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Speaker 1: the special effects man through a mutual friend. The teenage

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Speaker 1: harry Housen was encouraged by O'Brien to take art classes

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Speaker 1: and really develop his skills in the fine arts in

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Speaker 1: order to translate them into creating models for stop motion.

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Speaker 1: Harry Housen got work on a project called Puppetoons in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen forties and developed his skills. Eventually, he was

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Speaker 1: hired by Willis O'Brien to work with him on feature films,

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Speaker 1: including Mighty Joe Young. A few years after Mighty Joe Young,

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Speaker 1: Harry Housen made a film called The Beast from twenty

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Speaker 1: Thousand Fathoms that was in nineteen fifty three, and it

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Speaker 1: was one of the first films that featured giant creatures

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Speaker 1: attacking big cities and effect that he pioneered by using

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Speaker 1: rear projection to create this illusion of monsters and the

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Speaker 1: shots that was eventually named dynamation. The opening advertising line

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Speaker 1: for the Beast from twenty thousand Fathoms was are we

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Speaker 1: delving into mysteries we weren't meant to know? And it

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Speaker 1: promised audiences, you'll see it tear a city apart. It

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Speaker 1: was all thanks to the work of Ray Harry Housen,

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Speaker 1: and Harry Housen went on to create some of the

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Speaker 1: seminal works of stop motion animation, the Mythological Creatures of

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty eight, the Seventh Voyage of Sinbad, and the

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Speaker 1: Skeleton Fight in nineteen sixty three is Jason and the

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Speaker 1: Argonauts are often cited by film fans and animators alike

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Speaker 1: as favorites. I think that Jason and the Argonauts sequence

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Speaker 1: is kind of another one of those that people think

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Speaker 1: of when they say stop motion, like you immediately see

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Speaker 1: the skeletons coming out to have a fight. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: love it. We mentioned puppetuns a moment ago, and those

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Speaker 1: were the creation of a man named George Pale. Pal's

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Speaker 1: name doesn't come up as often as O'Brien's or Harry

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Speaker 1: Housings when it comes to stop motion, but he was

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Speaker 1: responsible for developing some really interesting techniques. Pal was Hungarian

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Speaker 1: and he started making puppet based animation in his studio

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Speaker 1: in three He had initially intended to work in two

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Speaker 1: D animation, but he had a hard time finding the

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Speaker 1: right cameras for two D filming, so he started to

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Speaker 1: experiment with stop motion. One of the techniques that Pal

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Speaker 1: developed was something called replacement animation. Rather than using just

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Speaker 1: one puppet that required manipulation from one shot to the next,

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Speaker 1: Pal would build a series of slightly different puppets so

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Speaker 1: he could just switch out the star of the shot

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Speaker 1: for each frame, and that's sped things along a little bit.

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Speaker 1: And this idea has continued to be refined over the years.

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Speaker 1: Now specific pieces of puppets get switched out, and current

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Speaker 1: animators will switch out just face plates for even the

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Speaker 1: most subtle of expression changes. That's something that you're going

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Speaker 1: to hear talked about in the interviews that are coming

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Speaker 1: up at the end. Puppatoons were born in the studio

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Speaker 1: that Pal set up in Los Angeles after he fled

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Speaker 1: the Nazi occupation of Poland and ninety nine. It was

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Speaker 1: the first dedicated puppet studio in the US, and George

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Speaker 1: Pile produced films for Paramount. One of the films he

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Speaker 1: made after moving to the US was called Tulips Shall Grow,

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Speaker 1: and it tells the tale of a couple's lives turned

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Speaker 1: upside down when their country is invaded by enemies called Screwballs.

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Speaker 1: They're fairly obvious stand in for goose stepping Nazis. Their

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Speaker 1: village is bombed and is burned to the ground. Their

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Speaker 1: windmill home is destroyed by tanks. But it is ultimately

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Speaker 1: a hopeful film. Yeah, and that is all told with puppets.

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Speaker 1: In the nineteen forties, Czechoslovakian animator Yuri Trinka made the

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Speaker 1: move from two D animation into puppet based stop motion,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of his work is rooted in folk tales,

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Speaker 1: initially from the Czech tradition, but eventually he branched out

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Speaker 1: into other cultures, shared stories in lore, as well as

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Speaker 1: adapting Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream into stop motion. Trinko was

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Speaker 1: constantly at odds with the world in which he was creating.

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Speaker 1: He was funded by a communist government, but that meant

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Speaker 1: that some of the films were banned for religious content.

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Speaker 1: Was an area that he wanted to explore as a

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Speaker 1: source of cultural storytelling, and he also struggled with the

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Speaker 1: balance of wanting to make art and needing to attract

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Speaker 1: an audience. In nineteen sixty five, he made his last

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Speaker 1: film called The Hand, which features an artist trying to

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Speaker 1: create his own sculpture, but a large hand keeps showing

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Speaker 1: up and intervening to change the work into something else.

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Speaker 1: It's a clear commentary on his own frustrations as an artist.

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Speaker 1: Trinco what said quote, A puppet is not a miniature human.

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Speaker 1: He has his own world. Yeah that that film. Unlike

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Speaker 1: the George Powell film that sounds very scary and ends

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Speaker 1: pretty on a pretty up note, this film does not

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Speaker 1: end on an up note, so just know if you

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Speaker 1: go looking for it online. It starts out a little

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Speaker 1: bit funnier and then gets quite dark. Moving into the

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, we start to see some of the stop

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Speaker 1: my characters that have endured to present day, including Gumby,

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Speaker 1: created in nineteen fifty five by Art Cloaky and first

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Speaker 1: appearing in an experimental film called Gumbaja. Cloaky was signed

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Speaker 1: by twentieth Century Fox to create a TV series based

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Speaker 1: on Gumbaja, and then Gumby made his transition from experimental

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Speaker 1: film to pretty mainstream stardom. In the late nineteen fifties,

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Speaker 1: Cloaky developed the Davey and Goliath series as a project

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Speaker 1: for the Lutheran Church. In the nineteen sixties and seventies,

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Speaker 1: Rank and Bass Productions, Inc. Started producing their now classic

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Speaker 1: holiday specials, including Rudolf the Red Nose Reindeer, Santa Claus

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Speaker 1: Is Coming to Town, and The Year Without a Santa Claus,

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Speaker 1: all of which I remember watching every year in my

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Speaker 1: childhood and sometimes as an adult. These are still run

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Speaker 1: every year, and the story of Hermie the Elf and

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Speaker 1: Rudolf in the Land of the Misfit Toys continues to

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Speaker 1: enchant people. Yeah, it's kind of funny even you know,

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Speaker 1: we we are so used to high level special effects

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Speaker 1: and c G. Yet kids today will still just sit

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Speaker 1: down and be completely entranced by these. I also just

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Speaker 1: like that The Heat Miser lives on. In the late

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, Phil Tippet and the team at Industrial Light

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Speaker 1: and Magic, we're working on effects for The Empire Strikes

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Speaker 1: Back when they tapped into an old school technique that

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Speaker 1: hadn't seen all that much use. That's what's come to

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Speaker 1: be known as go motion. So for the ad acts

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Speaker 1: or you may say a t eighties depending on your preference,

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Speaker 1: and Taunton's in that film, they didn't only use stop motion,

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Speaker 1: but instead they moved the armatures of those puppets slightly

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Speaker 1: with the frame exposed, and this creates a sense of

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Speaker 1: motion between the frames, just as would happen when a

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Speaker 1: human actor we're moving during a normally running camera shot,

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Speaker 1: thus minimizing the jerkiness that stop motion can sometimes have.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes tipp It is credited with creating this technique, and

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Speaker 1: he did really improve on how it was done. But

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Speaker 1: the blur technique itself was actually used as far back

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Speaker 1: as the nineteen twenties and some of Ladislastarrovitch's films. Go

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Speaker 1: Motion with used on a number of other films in

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Speaker 1: the eighties, but as special effects technology advanced, it really

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Speaker 1: fell out of favor. Peewee's Playhouse kept stop motion animation

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Speaker 1: in front of us viewing audiences in the form of

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Speaker 1: its penny cartoons, which featured simple stories narrated by a

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Speaker 1: little girl. I love the Penny cartoons. Pewee's Playhouse ran

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Speaker 1: from six to and during that time animators Craig Bartlett

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Speaker 1: and Nick Park created the Penny shorts, and eventually Bartlett

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Speaker 1: went on to create two D animation series for Nickelodeon,

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Speaker 1: but Nick Park went on to create the much beloved

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Speaker 1: Wallace and Grammic characters. Inventor Wallace and his very patient

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Speaker 1: dog Grommet have started so many shorts and features, including

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Speaker 1: A Grand Day Out, The Wrong Trousers, and Curse of

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Speaker 1: the were Rabbit. Nick Park has also made films that

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Speaker 1: don't star Wallace and Grommet, including Chicken Run and Toy

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Speaker 1: eight Teens, Early Man. And Another more modern day contributor

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Speaker 1: to stop motions ongoing story is Will Vinton Studios. If

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Speaker 1: you recall the commercials which featured the California of Reasons,

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Speaker 1: which started running in the mid nineteen eighties, you have

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Speaker 1: seen work out of this studio. Vinton also produced the

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Speaker 1: series The PJS, which innovated by using foam rubber puppets

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Speaker 1: that could easily be replicated to create the stop motion animation.

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Speaker 1: This came to be known as foammation, and it was

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Speaker 1: that that enabled the studio to produce a thirty minute

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Speaker 1: sitcom on a weekly television schedule. One of the major

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Speaker 1: moments and stop motions more recent history is Tim Burton's

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Speaker 1: The Nightmare Before Christmas, which came out in That film,

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Speaker 1: directed by Henry Selleck, tells the tale of Jack Skellington

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Speaker 1: longing for a life outside the bounds of Halloween Town.

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Speaker 1: It became a huge hit, and more than twenty five

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Speaker 1: years later, it continues to be a huge property for Disney.

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Speaker 1: So I was a lot of merchandise available and it

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Speaker 1: really gave stop motion a big boost in popularity and

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Speaker 1: ushered in a whole new phase for the medium. Since

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Speaker 1: there have been dozens of stop motion feature films produced

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Speaker 1: all over the globe and will Vinton Studios that we

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Speaker 1: talked about a moment ago of all it over time

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Speaker 1: and it actually became like a in two thousand five.

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Speaker 1: Since Likeca's first feature film, Cora Line, adapted from the

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Speaker 1: Neil Gaming book of the same name, debuted in two

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Speaker 1: thousand nine, the studio has produced Para Norman, The Box Trolls,

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Speaker 1: Cubo and The Two Strings, and now their new film

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Speaker 1: Missing Link coming up. We're gonna share Holly's talks with

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Speaker 1: four people from the production team at LIKECA. But before that,

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Speaker 1: we will pause for a quick sponsor break, and now

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Speaker 1: we are going to hear as promised from some of

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Speaker 1: the folks at like and because their new film, like

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Speaker 1: I said at the top of the show, is a

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Speaker 1: period piece. It is set in the late Victorian era,

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Speaker 1: one of my favorites. Uh. Some of my talks were

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Speaker 1: centered around capturing that time period as part of the film,

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Speaker 1: and other talks focused more on the history of the medium.

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Speaker 1: First step is Deborah Cook, the costume designer for Missing Link.

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Speaker 1: She's also designed costumes for Para Norman, The Box Trolls,

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Speaker 1: and Cubo and The Two Strings, as well as having

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Speaker 1: worked the fabricator and a modeler on many other films,

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Speaker 1: so she's got a lot of experience building and dressing puppets.

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Speaker 1: One of the really fascinating things that she talked about

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Speaker 1: was how she uses the historical trends in the period

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Speaker 1: the film is set, for example, the availability of synthetic

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Speaker 1: guys to convey the personalities of the puppet character she's dressing.

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Speaker 1: And she discusses one of my very favorite things a

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Speaker 1: little bit, which is Victorian underpinnings. Your work Obviously, like

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Speaker 1: any costume designer, starts with a copious amount of research,

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Speaker 1: and I'm wondering how you get that process kickstarted, particularly

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Speaker 1: when you're doing something historical and you have to get

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Speaker 1: like your historical knowledge base ready to start designing. Sure,

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Speaker 1: it's not greatly different from how he would research any

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Speaker 1: film in the live action world or any other type

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Speaker 1: of movie. Really um to to start off, I'll have

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Speaker 1: several conversations with the director and we'll stop feeding out

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Speaker 1: in the vine of the movie and read the script

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Speaker 1: to find the character's costumes and their their personality as well.

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Speaker 1: Costume really does feed the personality of the character and

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Speaker 1: informs their emotional arc across the movie as well, and

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Speaker 1: supports that. They will also find what motivates the costume

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Speaker 1: change and what it should be from and into to

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Speaker 1: help pinpoint what we're looking for, how many costume changes

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Speaker 1: there might be, what emotion they might be feeling in

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Speaker 1: each costume, and how the costume helps propel the story

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Speaker 1: forward and support that emotional journey as well. So I'll

428
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 1: start by deconstructing the script and identifying information for their costumes,

429
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 1: such as any described item of clothing or accessory, their

430
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 1: actions or activity and their personality and character notes from Crisp,

431
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 1: but there are director as well, and this gives me

432
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 1: a baseline to grasp who they are, the director's expectations

433
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 1: for them, and for me to explore costume ideas to

434
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: flesh out their personality. And it also pinpoints the era historically,

435
00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 1: the region and if there's any economic strains on the

436
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 1: style of their costumes, if they're meant to exemplify something

437
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 1: in particular, for instance, in Line or Adelina, they're very vain.

438
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 1: They're quite vain and they love their clothes. And Adelina's

439
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 1: influences are Spanish and Lionels are very much set in

440
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 1: the city of London, but they're very fashion forward, so

441
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,479
Speaker 1: it's looking its techniques. It might be around it at

442
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,719
Speaker 1: that time that were new to textile explorations such as

443
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 1: the weaving for lion Or suits and for Adelina's clothing,

444
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 1: that vibrant future color and line or turquoise cravat would

445
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,119
Speaker 1: have been quite um ala mode. At that time, synthetic

446
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: dies were first coming into play, so moving away from

447
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 1: those Victorian smoky colors and into something more vivacious and

448
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 1: playful was was possible at that time. And they definitely

449
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 1: indulged in that. And in contrast to that, Susan link

450
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: suit is acquired in the Pacific north West and there

451
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 1: is a history of weaving in that area and those

452
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 1: kind of colors and that that weaving came into play

453
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: there as well. So you start to build a contrast

454
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 1: between the characters and their origins and how they play

455
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 1: against each other and how that plays out of course

456
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,360
Speaker 1: the movie. Now, when you are adapting period clothing, which

457
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 1: Avon has very unique silhouettes into teeny tiny, diminutive sizes

458
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 1: for puppets, what is the biggest challenge that comes up

459
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: in that process? Well, I guess we're not going to

460
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,200
Speaker 1: build them as they were built, So in a way

461
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 1: that's a win for us. So we're not going to

462
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: build Adelina corset, for example, under her explorer that she's

463
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 1: wearing an f bend swan bill corset, and we don't

464
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: actually build any of that underneath, So we build a

465
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: puppet shape in that form and build a costume over that.

466
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 1: So in that way it's a win. If it was

467
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: a live action movie, they would actually be building all

468
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: of that very humans, but they have to build in

469
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: all those restraining shapes underneath. So in a way that's

470
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 1: a game, but in other ways, building fabrics in the

471
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: scale that we work, which is between one fifth and

472
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: one six human scale, we need to find the right

473
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 1: size threads, the right fabric selection with the particular properties

474
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 1: we're looking for. Our puppets shapes also differ from humans

475
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 1: quite greatly. So even though they appear as humans, where

476
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 1: their arms are set in their bodies, and where their

477
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: legs are set in their bodies and where their waists

478
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 1: are and their shoulders are are not where they are

479
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: for humans. They're built for animation, so there's particular arm

480
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 1: lengths where the elbow position is that we need for

481
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: our puppets to be able to touch their faces for example,

482
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 1: or walk or bent over. It's very very different from

483
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 1: human proportions, so you're working with those restrictions as well

484
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:03,719
Speaker 1: as finding a small scale fabric, which we now are

485
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: way more explorative at the studio and we've become quite

486
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 1: self sufficient in the fabrics that we make are very

487
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 1: very specific for us and specific for the animation requirements.

488
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 1: So we need to building understructures for example, so we're

489
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: not just looking at building our own fabrics. We're also

490
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 1: looking at small gauge wires, weighted linings and how they

491
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: all interact together as well. So it's greatly removed from

492
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: the idea of a live action costume or how traditional

493
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: historical costume would be made. We can make our own

494
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 1: departures to our own medium. I also wanted to ask

495
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: you about kind of walking the line with a historical

496
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 1: film between the historically based research and the obviously very

497
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: like stylized look of any of the films that have

498
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: come out of Like and Like. Where are you comfortable

499
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: kind of with the give and take of that and

500
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 1: maybe veering a little off his ouricle accuracy to stay

501
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: in the style of the character. And when do you

502
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: say no, no, we really need to make sure that

503
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 1: this particular element of period fashion is included here. It

504
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 1: does it varies um sometimes I mean I mean this.

505
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 1: In the particular instance of Missing Link, we very much

506
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: wanted to Victorian feel two aspects of Adeline's clothing and

507
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:27,360
Speaker 1: aspects of the line or clothing, and just making sure

508
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: we capture those elements that read does that, but then

509
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 1: having the liberty to make a big departure for ourselves

510
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: to add in that the color palette of the movie,

511
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: for example, is very very bright, it's very vigorous, it's

512
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: very up tempo, and that is not very Victorian. So

513
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: combining those elements, for example, and some of the surface techniques,

514
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: they need to capture the essence of Victorian era and

515
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: Victorian bricks and clothing, and then they're very luxurious and

516
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 1: they're quite rich. Um, they're very textural. But then we

517
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: need to make a departure into a field or area

518
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: that suits animation. So there's there's quite a few aspects

519
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: to consider in forming the costumes and regional representation as well.

520
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: So we worked with a cultural specialist when I was

521
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: constructing the Himalayan costume to make sure that we had

522
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: authentic reference for the type of jewelry and the type

523
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: of cloth that would have been worn in that region

524
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 1: in that era, what the colors might be, what the

525
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: origin of the threads might be, and then adding in

526
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: a flare of personality to suit the characters as well.

527
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: So there's there's quite a few few elements coming together there.

528
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: The next interview is with Arian Sutner, the producer on

529
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,719
Speaker 1: Missing Link, and Arian has a seriously impressive history in film,

530
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: and then start motion animation in particular going back to

531
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: working on the name Are Before Christmas. If you check

532
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: out her Internet movie database page, your job may drop.

533
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: She has really touched a lot of the films that

534
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: are our cultural touchstones for us today. So I wanted

535
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 1: to talk to her first and foremost about how the

536
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: industry has evolved over the course of her career. To

537
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: start with, you have a pretty impressive stop motion career,

538
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: both as an artist and a producer, so I feel

539
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: like you also have a unique perspective on this industry

540
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: that very few people would really have access to. In

541
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: your opinion, what has changed the most about stop motion

542
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: animation during your career. I think what's changed the most

543
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: since I started, um, which was probably around nine, is,

544
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: you know, the technology, and there is such a long

545
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: list of things that worry around back then, just in

546
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:52,239
Speaker 1: terms of computer software, cell phones, um, you know, and

547
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: that's industry wide, but it's awful the whole world. So

548
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: I think specifically related to stop motion. If I keep

549
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 1: going back to, you know, the first movie that I

550
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: worked on, which was Tim Burton's Nightmare Before Christmas. We

551
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 1: that's kind of as a good touchstone for like how

552
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: we were making those stop motion movies versus what we're

553
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: doing today. You know, at the core, we shot on

554
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: thirty five million meire film with these really old Mitchell cameras.

555
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: They were actually used in World War Two that the

556
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: camera housing and the internal gearing were really solid and reliable,

557
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: so they were perfect for filming frame by frame. Um.

558
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: And they're huge, they're they're ginormous, they're really heavy, they're cumbersome.

559
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: So clearly I don't know how they did it in

560
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: World War Two. But also it wasn't really easy moving

561
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: them on on the set, you know, to um. We'd

562
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: also do and we do lab runs at the end

563
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: of every day to get the film process so we

564
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: can watch daily's just the next morning, so you have

565
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 1: a cut off when you can deliver your film to

566
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: the lab and how you have to and when you

567
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: can pick it up. But else there was no digital

568
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: x on on that movie. It was all like shot

569
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 1: and camera, like some crafty optical effects. We edited entirely

570
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: on a steam deck, you know, with film, so we

571
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: didn't use the avid at all. It's we had, you know,

572
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: we had bins of film and we were spicing together

573
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: the film in terms of storyboards, you know, we were

574
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: drawing artists were drawing pencil on paper and then we

575
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: were shooting them on a down shooter manually, so like now,

576
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: we shoot everything. You you were at the sets, you

577
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: probably saw those digital fl are, the single lens reflexes,

578
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: the cameras, you know, their consumer cameras. You can purchase

579
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: them like anywhere. That means that we have dailies all

580
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: day long. That's a huge difference in terms of how

581
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: it makes stuff. We have programmable lighting and and programmable

582
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: camera moves, certainly digital compositing and and and we were

583
00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: you know, we use a lot of CG. I mean,

584
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: we use CG for everything really, we think for puppets

585
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: and sets. Yeah, we've we've taken advantage of those three

586
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's like three decades of technological advances.

587
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: So the most noticeable difference I think on screen is

588
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: probably is probably the facial animation, which might have been

589
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: something we talked about when you were here. So like

590
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: a nightmare, we had replacement facial animation, and it was

591
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 1: it was totally analog. We had you know, basically done

592
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 1: by really really skilled um sculptors, sculpting and molding, tasting, painting.

593
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 1: I mean, we still have those processes for some things,

594
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: but this was done for every single face. So, um,

595
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: if you've got you know, twenty four facial iterations for

596
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: every second of film, which we still have, that's like

597
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: a lot of faces to be made by hand, and

598
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: need to imagine that, you know, time and budget would

599
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,479
Speaker 1: play a factor in the range of I guess the

600
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: emotional life of these characters, you know, the puppets, because

601
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: you can only do so much and you you know,

602
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: you can't really beat insistent that you want to only

603
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: do as many as you can be consistent by making

604
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: it by hand. So I think that was a huge

605
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: challenge and it's still a huge challenge getting the shapes

606
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 1: and the paint colors too, like match perfectly one frame,

607
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: uh to the next. Everything then had to be and uh,

608
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 1: very very simple so that it was repeatable by hand,

609
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,879
Speaker 1: so we'd like anyway, we introduced the three D printer.

610
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: Really that process on coraline that was the first I

611
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: don't know, I think we were the first people to do.

612
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: It was like a pretty big game changer for the

613
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: stop motion world. You know, we could add a lot

614
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 1: more color because we weren't doing all the color by hand.

615
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: Although it's still a little bit simple. We were able

616
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 1: to you know, print more faces, have them be more repeatable,

617
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 1: so we could really introduce more of a range of

618
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: human emotions. That kind of broadened the story telling that

619
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: we wanted to do in terms of, you know, the

620
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 1: characters in our lives like us shown on their faces.

621
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 1: So I mean we we just basically with all this technology,

622
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 1: like we were getting rid of the impediment to storytelling

623
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: that we used to have in stopped motion film, right,

624
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: so we are able to not just shoot what's within

625
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 1: three walls or basically what's in a in a box,

626
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,720
Speaker 1: you know, on set. But I would say, what's interesting

627
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: for me is that, like all this technology has made

628
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 1: it got rid of all the challenges, so we can

629
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: expand our worlds, tell these really ambitious stories and really

630
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 1: tell any kind of stories we want to without limits.

631
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: But it doesn't make anything simpler or easier. You know

632
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 1: my dream I thought when I, like even when I

633
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,399
Speaker 1: was working on TV shows, I thought, oh, I can

634
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: just get rid of these cumbers and cameras. We can

635
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: have turnover on the sets. It will be so much

636
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 1: faster and we'll be able to make quota. But of

637
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: course that just you start filling in all that time

638
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: with you know, more ambitious projects and things that you

639
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 1: don't know how to do, so kind of, you know,

640
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 1: it doesn't make it easier, It just makes it the

641
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: films that you get to see more rewarding to watch,

642
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,760
Speaker 1: I hope or not. I don't want to speak badly

643
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 1: about those other ones, but it just offers more. You know,

644
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:13,919
Speaker 1: it's a bigger world. We we don't have as many

645
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,280
Speaker 1: limitations now. Yeah, well, I feel like everything gets richer

646
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 1: as the medium develops over time. And I have seen

647
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: you speak kind of to that before, and that kind

648
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: of leads into this next question, which you may have

649
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: already given me the answer. But uh, like I've seen

650
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: you speak before about how every project is a learning process,

651
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 1: and I remember particularly seeing you on press junket for

652
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 1: Cuba and saying, we were not ready to make this film,

653
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 1: but we had to catch up to what we needed

654
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,800
Speaker 1: to do. So what are maybe some of your favorite

655
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: moments in the industry during your career that you feel like, uh,

656
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 1: will be historically significant, that were like those moments that

657
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: really kind of bumped the industry forward a little bit.

658
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: I feel like every movie has some, but do you

659
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 1: have like the one favorite one where you're like, we

660
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 1: did this. You know, whatever kind of animation you're working on,

661
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 1: it's all kind of incremental, so you're counting your success

662
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: and seconds and frames and so sometimes the good question,

663
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: because sometimes it's hard to step back and really try

664
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: to parse the big triumphs or the big successes from

665
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 1: just the little ones that happened, you know, on the

666
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: day to day, and then they start to kind of

667
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: take on equal significance. But I don't know, I don't

668
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 1: want to shoot our own horn, but it is doing

669
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,760
Speaker 1: your own horn. I think that it's not the movie,

670
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: but like the biggest historical lead for stop motion for us.

671
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,240
Speaker 1: I think it's really um from what I have seen

672
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 1: is being able to be at the studio that's been

673
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 1: here like really tenaciously and thoroughly devoted to the stewardship

674
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 1: of this kind of filmmaking stop motion, which is like

675
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 1: a you know, all the stuff I've worked on before

676
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: it was they were tended to be like isolated events.

677
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: You know, you set up shop for like two years

678
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: on your hire crew, you start shooting, and just you're

679
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 1: pretty much learning what you're doing while you're doing it.

680
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 1: So by the time you're finished the movie. Sometimes it's

681
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,240
Speaker 1: you know, new people. Every often there are new groups

682
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: of people. You're like, Okay, I have a pretty good

683
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,320
Speaker 1: understanding of what we just did. And then you're scrambling

684
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 1: to find another job or is there going to be

685
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: another job, and everybody dissolves, they go their separate ways,

686
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: and then like a couple of years later, maybe three

687
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: years later, you're like, okay, let's do this again from scratch.

688
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: So there's no real built in time or money for

689
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: research and development. Like if I'm I'm producing something that's

690
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 1: scrapping or a part of it, there's no line item

691
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:41,439
Speaker 1: that says we will research and develop right now. There's

692
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: there's literally no time for it. So and I mean,

693
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 1: I think that's the case for so many movies and

694
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 1: certainly I'm sure a lot of industries. But because we

695
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,919
Speaker 1: have this like dedicated space now and we have you know, more,

696
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 1: way more than just a handful of our artists and

697
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,919
Speaker 1: technicians are like you know, all of our our long

698
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: time key people, they're able to really experiment with untested ideas,

699
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: and they're able to also work together because we have

700
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 1: a history together. We kind of refer back to what

701
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: we are successes and what we didn't do so well,

702
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 1: we have a shorthand for communicating and solving those problems.

703
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: So I think it's not necessarily like the you know,

704
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: it was a game changer, for example on Coraline to

705
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,720
Speaker 1: get that printer, it's unbelievable. But I think it's really

706
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: the studio being here that is the game changer for

707
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: me that I'm able. We get to continue to work

708
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:36,800
Speaker 1: with these people who are still creatively, really curious about

709
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 1: this art form, the kinds of movies we're making, and

710
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: we keep building on it. I said that to you

711
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: about I guess I said that about Kuba, But um,

712
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 1: you know, we weren't ready to do miss Missing Link

713
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 1: the way we did it. We without having done the

714
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 1: four previous movies there, we wouldn't have been able to

715
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: do it. Next up is Brad Shifts, who, like Arian,

716
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,280
Speaker 1: has worked on a lot of films. He's the animation

717
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 1: supervisor on Missing Link, and during his chat with Holly,

718
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 1: they talk about animators of the past that inspire him,

719
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 1: as well as passing the torch and the historical knowledge

720
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 1: onto the next generation of artists. So, first of all,

721
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: you like many of the people that like, have worked

722
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 1: on some very big stop motion projects that I think

723
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 1: most people would recognize. But I wonder how much you

724
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: are aware of and think about the people that have

725
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 1: come before you, like Harry Housing and O'Brien, and how

726
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 1: much that inspires your work. You know. It's an interesting

727
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: question because I think about that a lot, but maybe

728
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: not in the way that you would think we would.

729
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 1: I think I would. It's I talked about a lot

730
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,800
Speaker 1: in the sense that I was inspired by Harry Housen

731
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:48,280
Speaker 1: and you know, Willis O'Brien and George Pale and Ranking

732
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 1: and Bath all that stuff. And when I go back

733
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: and I look at that stuff, while it was groundbreaking

734
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: for the time, it's pretty ropey looking at that motion,

735
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 1: you know. And and and I see what we're what

736
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 1: we're doing today, particularly here at LICA, and it's so

737
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: smooth and naturalistic. And that gets me thinking about what

738
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 1: the next generation of animators who are inspired by the

739
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,320
Speaker 1: work that we're doing right now, how good their stuff

740
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,439
Speaker 1: is going to be. And I'm just it's interesting because

741
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 1: I'm just starting to see it. And um, I have

742
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: one of my animated this is such a weird thing. Um,

743
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,800
Speaker 1: you know, we just celebrated the ten year anniversary of Coraline,

744
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: and somebody asked me, you know, was that strange, you

745
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:35,919
Speaker 1: know that it's been ten years, And I think, you know, well,

746
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 1: not really. I do it all the time and it

747
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,839
Speaker 1: doesn't so I don't really think about it as being

748
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:43,879
Speaker 1: strange to feel like it was just yesterday. But then

749
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 1: I was reminded when one of my assistants just just

750
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 1: came on board and she went out to dinner with

751
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:57,280
Speaker 1: one of my animators who was celebrating his twenty four birthday,

752
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: which meant he was thirteen when coral came out, and

753
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: fifteen when ParaNorman came out, in seventeen when box Trolls

754
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 1: came out. And here the kid who grew up so weird.

755
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 1: This is this kind of stuff that makes me start

756
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:15,319
Speaker 1: to feel old. I grew up watching the work of it,

757
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: my peers and I did, and now here he is.

758
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 1: Now we're peers, and this guy just has you know,

759
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 1: he's just one of these people that just has this

760
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 1: unbridled natural talent and we just have to figure out

761
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 1: how to teach him how to work in the production environment.

762
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 1: But you know, just the thought of where they're going

763
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 1: to go is so exciting to me. Yeah, I am.

764
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 1: I have talked to a lot of animators at various

765
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 1: points in time, and what I always love is how

766
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 1: many of them talk about a similar thing where it's

767
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 1: like these kids grew up thinking this technology is just

768
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 1: to rigor and so for them, like the next thing

769
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 1: is going to be amazing. Yeah, you know, we we

770
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: you know, like I didn't even know when I started,

771
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 1: I didn't even know. We didn't have frame grabbers, you know,

772
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 1: I didn't know any of that stuff. If I had

773
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 1: a character that sell down in the middle of the

774
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: night when I was shooting one of my short films,

775
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 1: I just sort of picked it up and I balled

776
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 1: where I thought maybe he was, you know. And and

777
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 1: now these kids, you know, now these kids grow up

778
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,879
Speaker 1: with this technology that you know, they can see where

779
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 1: they've been and they can see their live frame, and

780
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: it's it's incredible. It's really exciting. Um. Obviously, the design

781
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 1: departments on a film like Missing Link will take into

782
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: account like the historical setting of what's going on in

783
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 1: it as they've developed their designs. But I wonder if

784
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: historical norms are something that you consider when you are

785
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 1: doing the animation, like how a character will move or

786
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 1: how they'll behave are those things that you think about

787
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: in a history context, they are, you know, but it's

788
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:52,800
Speaker 1: it's interesting all the departments do such extensive research that

789
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 1: costume wise, we really benefit from the research that the

790
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 1: costume department does because they will go back and look

791
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 1: at historic you know, pull historical reference and costumes from

792
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: films that depict historical references. So we get the benefit

793
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 1: of piggybacking on their reference. So you know, the way

794
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 1: Adeline's dress moved, we had a load of material that

795
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 1: we were able to look at. So in that context, yes,

796
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 1: Kubo was very was very much that way. Like I

797
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 1: looked at a lot of kiro Sour films because we

798
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: had to figure out how we were going to control kimonos.

799
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: And you know, there's a reason that there hasn't been

800
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: a whole lot of you know, loose or loose fabrics

801
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 1: characters and in stop motion because it's a nightmare. But um,

802
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 1: you know, I looked at a lot of Kirosawa stuff,

803
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 1: Red Beard, Seventh Samurai, You, Jimbo, and so yes, sometimes

804
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 1: we look a lot of historical reference. Other times we

805
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 1: piggyback on what what costume will do. We shoot all

806
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 1: sorts of reference, So the costume department also will buy

807
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 1: fabrics and dresses and costumes for us that we'll shoot

808
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,800
Speaker 1: reference on stage and we'll put it, you know, and

809
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 1: what'll dress up an animator and walk around so we

810
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 1: can see that, you know, how the weight of the

811
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 1: fabric moves, and that kind of reference we do, and

812
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 1: if appropriate, will do historical reference. But a lot of that,

813
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 1: you know, I'm able to piggyback from other departments reference,

814
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 1: which is quite nice. Where just just a big, big

815
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:23,840
Speaker 1: family in that sense it um, because you do have

816
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:27,399
Speaker 1: a little bit of a a unique view having worked

817
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 1: on so many of these important films. I'm wondering what

818
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 1: you think are some of the most significant moments in

819
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 1: stop motion and you can make that the history of

820
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 1: stop motion or just within your career or both if

821
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,959
Speaker 1: you want to do each. All right, um wow, let's see.

822
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 1: You know, I think willis O'Brien for King Kong Ya

823
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: huge huge. You know. George Pale, people um, you know,

824
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:53,959
Speaker 1: kind of skims by. Sometimes feels like people forget about

825
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 1: George Pale and the puppettoons, and he was really the

826
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:02,319
Speaker 1: originator replacement animation, and I think given what we're doing now,

827
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: um with the faces, it's pretty significant. Leads to me,

828
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 1: great Harry House and of course Ranking and Bass. You know,

829
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 1: we all my generation all grew up with the Christmas

830
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 1: specials on TV, which was really sort of my first

831
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 1: introduction to to stop motion without really knowing what it was,

832
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: you know, and and going back to Harry House and

833
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 1: you know, with Mighty Joe Young and seven Voyage is

834
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,760
Speaker 1: a Sin Bad. You know, I always thought those films

835
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 1: were cool, but I don't think it really stood out

836
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 1: to me until the Clash of the Titans was I

837
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 1: remember my aunt taking me and looking back, that was

838
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 1: again I didn't know what stop motion was, but there

839
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 1: was something that I loved about that film, and looking back,

840
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 1: it was the stop motion effects still tip it of

841
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 1: course for all the stuff and the Tontons and Empire

842
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 1: and oh I'll talk about Forever, so great, so great,

843
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 1: And when I discovered stop motion and in school, it

844
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 1: was really Will Benton, you know, with the with the

845
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:06,800
Speaker 1: California Raisins, and you know, that was the place I

846
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: always wanted to work with Will Bent in studios, So

847
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 1: that was pointed for me for me, and of course,

848
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 1: you know Henry and Henry Sella and Tim Burton for

849
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 1: a Nightmare before Christmas. I really kind of look at

850
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: as as sort of putting stop motion back on the map,

851
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 1: because that sort of was the beginning of this next

852
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: wave of stop motions. It was Nightmare, and then it

853
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,879
Speaker 1: was James, and then there was a lull, and then

854
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 1: it really picked up with the work that Ardman was

855
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:39,399
Speaker 1: doing and then Corpse Bride, which began my ride, which

856
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:43,800
Speaker 1: has been you know, I feel so fortunate and lucky

857
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 1: to have been on this ride, you know, I mean

858
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: in includes let's see Corpse Corpse, Coraline, Fantastic, Mr Fox, Para,

859
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: Norman Box, Trolls, Cubo, Isle of Dogs, Missing Link. Yeah,

860
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 1: you could just lie down at this point, people like, Wow,

861
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 1: it's an impressive career. It's it's yeah, I'm done now.

862
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 1: And I mean the exciting thing is, you know we're

863
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 1: stepping We've just finished Missing Lincoln hasn't even come out,

864
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 1: you know, we're starting to do development on Film six,

865
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: which I'm so jazzed about. I can't say anything about it,

866
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 1: but it's it's so exciting to get to work on

867
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 1: projects here at lico, where we're continuously trying to push

868
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 1: what's possible in the medium, and it keeps it, It

869
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 1: keeps it fresh, it keeps it fun, it keeps it inspiring.

870
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 1: And Yeah, just feel incredibly, incredibly lucky. Yeah, you're doing

871
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: all the stuff that historians in another fifty a hundred

872
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 1: years will be like, I can't believe they pulled this off. Um,

873
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 1: it's just pretty cool to think about. Uh that is.

874
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 1: Are you like that's a little too much? I can't

875
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 1: think that. I do think. I do think sometimes, you know,

876
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 1: I do. I do think about um, just like and

877
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 1: the stuff that we're doing, and how our films don't

878
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 1: necessarily fit in the in the same box that all

879
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 1: other animated films do. And I hope that history smiles,

880
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 1: you know, brightly on what we're doing. I can't imagine

881
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 1: it won't. I do have another question. This sort of

882
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: builds on something you talked about when we first started

883
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 1: speaking about having people working under you that are you know,

884
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 1: we're inspired by the films you were making earlier in

885
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:26,279
Speaker 1: your career, and a lot of creative industries and particularly animation,

886
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,239
Speaker 1: both like two D and three D, as well as

887
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 1: what you guys are doing. I think there is this

888
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:34,240
Speaker 1: sort of baked in, like almost old school guild style

889
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 1: mentorship where one generation shares their knowledge and what they've

890
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,479
Speaker 1: developed with the next generation. But I find also there's

891
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:44,319
Speaker 1: often just historical knowledge that's passed along. Do you find

892
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 1: that's that's true and is that something you think about

893
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: and that you want to make sure future animators in

894
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 1: your field know what's come before them, or do you

895
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,840
Speaker 1: just want to enable them to do amazing work and

896
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 1: they'll figure out the history on their own. Um, I

897
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: don't think that they need to figure it out all

898
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 1: on their own. I think which how to share those things.

899
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 1: It's interesting a lot of the people that come here,

900
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 1: you know, well, everybody who comes here is so in

901
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 1: tune with the history of stop motion that the coolest

902
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:11,800
Speaker 1: thing to share is I mean, we're in the midst

903
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 1: of an evolution of an art form right now, and

904
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 1: and myself and a bunch of my peers here have

905
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 1: also been in this, you know, in this journey together.

906
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 1: So one of the things I've been talking to my

907
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 1: animators about I think I touched on earlier. A lot

908
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 1: of our journey was sort of based on working our way,

909
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 1: climbing our way to the top of this stop motion mountain,

910
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 1: if you will with um, if you look at like

911
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 1: as at the top of what we're doing right now.

912
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 1: I used to think that the you know, working on

913
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,760
Speaker 1: television shows was the path. You know, you you're animating

914
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 1: every day as fast as you can, and you're you know,

915
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 1: you're building a library of techniques, the library of instincts

916
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 1: on what what to do. But now you have these

917
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 1: you know, kids coming straight out of school that have

918
00:50:56,239 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 1: this incredible talent and they're stepping off the ski lift

919
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 1: at the top of the mountain, but they don't have

920
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 1: any of those other experiences. So you know, everybody works

921
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 1: in a way that they you don't think about it

922
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:11,360
Speaker 1: like it's it's just sort of an innate way of working.

923
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 1: You know, you don't think of how you're moving the

924
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 1: puppet or how you're setting up your unit as being special.

925
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:21,520
Speaker 1: But what I'm realizing is that's the important information we

926
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,319
Speaker 1: need to start sharing to these younger kids. So I've

927
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 1: I've really sort of put out a challenge to my

928
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 1: animators to start breaking down your technique, Start breaking down

929
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:33,799
Speaker 1: how you approach a shot, Start breaking down you know,

930
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: how you move a puppet and let's start sharing that

931
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 1: with the kids that don't know that, that haven't had

932
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 1: to work their way up from television, who were starting

933
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:46,880
Speaker 1: their journey right here at the top and are going

934
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 1: to just keep pushing it towards the sky. It's fascinating.

935
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 1: It's really interesting too, to have that perspective shift about

936
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:56,319
Speaker 1: what I thought you had to do versus where we

937
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: are now and now what we have to do to

938
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 1: help that group whose jury me is starting at the top.

939
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 1: I find it really exciting and really cool, and it's

940
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 1: interesting because I'm still trying to get my head around

941
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:12,760
Speaker 1: the best way to do that. Last, but not least,

942
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:14,919
Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to chat with Chris Butler, who

943
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 1: wrote and directed Missing Link as well as one of

944
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 1: my all time favorite films, Para Norman. I kind of

945
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:23,400
Speaker 1: had a dorky ParaNorman Fangerl moment before any of the

946
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 1: stuff that you're about to hear. Uh. He also wrote

947
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:28,360
Speaker 1: the screenplay for Cuba and the Two Strings. It also

948
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: turns out he loves history, so this talk covered important

949
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 1: moments in stop motion history, as well as contextualizing a

950
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 1: story in a historical setting and grappling with when words

951
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 1: came into being versus when the story is set, so

952
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:46,239
Speaker 1: right out of the gate, I didn't actually really think

953
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 1: about this. When I mentioned to my husband that I

954
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 1: was going to be talking to you, he was like,

955
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 1: ask him why he does so many history movies? And

956
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:54,799
Speaker 1: I was like what? And then I realized that the

957
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 1: movies that you have written in your time at like

958
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 1: all do have a pretty significant history element. Are you

959
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 1: secretly a history nerd? It is no secret. I am

960
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:10,399
Speaker 1: history nerd. I am unapologetic about it. I wish more

961
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,400
Speaker 1: people were obsessed with history, because then we might actually

962
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 1: learn something. Yeah, I mean I feel the same obviously,

963
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 1: but it's always a delight when you meet someone in

964
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 1: the wild who you might not anticipate is a history nerd.

965
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 1: So are you consciously including historical elements in your films

966
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 1: or does it Is it just so natural for you

967
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:30,439
Speaker 1: to be thinking that way that that just comes out.

968
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:35,320
Speaker 1: It's definitely part of me. It's it's it's in my DNA,

969
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 1: so I don't think i'd be able to avoid it.

970
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 1: But I also think when you're when you're writing a movie,

971
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 1: particularly for animation, you know you're you're creating a world

972
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 1: that you want to be compelling, that you want to

973
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 1: draw in an audience so that they believe in it.

974
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 1: They have to believe what they're seeing on the screen

975
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: in order to be invested in it. You know, you're

976
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 1: already a step removed with animation, but as you're you're

977
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:04,839
Speaker 1: showing the audience something that is different from reality. And

978
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 1: I think what helps an audience is something to hook onto,

979
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:14,759
Speaker 1: and quite often that is historical detail. Certainly with this

980
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:19,240
Speaker 1: movie Missing Link, it takes place in the Victorian Age,

981
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 1: and sometimes you have to get across a lot of

982
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:27,759
Speaker 1: information in a relatively short time. For example, because of

983
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 1: constraints of time and cost, I had to establish the

984
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:36,439
Speaker 1: city of London very very quickly, and I also also

985
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:40,320
Speaker 1: had to establish what time period it was, so immediately,

986
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 1: if you think of Victorian London, you think of handsome caps,

987
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 1: horse drawn carts, top hats. There's a whole bunch of

988
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 1: historical signifiers that everyone knows. After everyone is aware of

989
00:54:56,480 --> 00:55:00,240
Speaker 1: and throwing them all into one shot, you immediately get

990
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 1: the audience on your side. You They immediately know where

991
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 1: they are. It might be superstylized, but they get it.

992
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 1: You don't have to say London eight. You just have

993
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 1: to have a shot of horse drawn cards. But that

994
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 1: that's it to me, that's what that's what the history

995
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:19,239
Speaker 1: thing is. You use it to give the audience that

996
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 1: recognition so that they know where they are and they

997
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 1: feel comfortable with what they're watching. And I think that

998
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,280
Speaker 1: goes the same even if it's like a fantasy movie.

999
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:33,239
Speaker 1: There are certain things that you you lean on um

1000
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 1: to create that tapestry. You know, certainly it's something that

1001
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:39,800
Speaker 1: you know. Deborah Cook as as an example in the

1002
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:46,560
Speaker 1: costume stuff, she does exhaustive historical research and the reference

1003
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:49,959
Speaker 1: that she brings into it immediately gives you, well, first

1004
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:53,800
Speaker 1: of all, it's it's classy. Um. It gives it a sophistication,

1005
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 1: and it gives it that you know, if you make

1006
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:02,759
Speaker 1: something up, I think it shows um, if you use

1007
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:07,000
Speaker 1: real life as an inspiration, it automatically gives a credence

1008
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 1: that I think it's hard to ape, you know, it's

1009
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:12,919
Speaker 1: hard to just come up with. Yeah. Turning a little

1010
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:15,480
Speaker 1: bit to just the history of the industry. When I

1011
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:17,800
Speaker 1: have had the good fortune to talk to, for example,

1012
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 1: two D and three D animators, I just find that

1013
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 1: they all seem to have a pretty strong sense of

1014
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 1: the history of their industry, and I'm wondering if you

1015
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 1: feel that the same is true for stop motion. Yeah,

1016
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,919
Speaker 1: I think it is. I think it's probably because when, well,

1017
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 1: certainly my generation and before, when you're a kid and

1018
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 1: you first get exposed to animation in my case, actually

1019
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 1: it's two D animation. First, there's this kind of like

1020
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 1: magic spell that's cast and you're, like, you're young, creative

1021
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:50,880
Speaker 1: mind is thinking, I need to know what this is.

1022
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:53,279
Speaker 1: I need because I want to do this, and so

1023
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:56,240
Speaker 1: you're you're you instantly start trying to find out everything

1024
00:56:56,280 --> 00:57:00,359
Speaker 1: you can about it. And because I'm old, for me,

1025
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 1: you know you can. You couldn't just google it, So

1026
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 1: it meant going out and buying books and watching every

1027
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:09,879
Speaker 1: behind the scenes footage of every animated movie you could

1028
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:12,760
Speaker 1: possibly think of. You know, you you there's a hunger

1029
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 1: that comes with that interest because you want to know

1030
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 1: everything about it. So I think you you automatically, anyone

1031
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 1: who's in animation automatically has that in them. I think

1032
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 1: I think that's where it comes from with me. With

1033
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:30,360
Speaker 1: stop motion. I think it's also because the history of

1034
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 1: it is so rich and enjoyable, and it's something that

1035
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 1: you see all the time. Like everyone has seen the

1036
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:42,439
Speaker 1: A T. A T. Walkers in in Empire Strikes Back

1037
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 1: if that stop motion. Everyone has seen you know, Ray

1038
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:48,520
Speaker 1: Harry House and Creatures or the you know, the Skeleton

1039
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 1: Fight and Jason the Argonauts adds out there, and it's

1040
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 1: it's very easy to see. So I think it's easy

1041
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:58,520
Speaker 1: to become invested in the history of this medium. So

1042
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 1: when you're writing a story like Missing Link, which I

1043
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 1: think is pretty clearly a very sprawling period piece. Uh.

1044
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 1: And I know you mentioned some of Deborah's research, but

1045
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 1: what kind of historical research do you do. I actually

1046
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 1: love the research part because I love reading. I love

1047
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:19,440
Speaker 1: finding treasures in old books or old reference books, photographic books.

1048
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:24,120
Speaker 1: I use it as an excuse to just buy stuff

1049
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 1: so for the movie. But and and you know, bear

1050
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:30,080
Speaker 1: in mind, I've been writing this on and off for many,

1051
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 1: many years. So over that time, I've accumulated so many books.

1052
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:38,640
Speaker 1: I could not even tell you how many Sherlock Holmes

1053
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 1: books I have read. And even the ones that are

1054
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 1: not by Conan Doyle, I've read everything. Um. And it's

1055
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 1: it is an era that I love. It's very easy

1056
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 1: for me to do that, and I'll buy you know,

1057
00:58:54,200 --> 00:59:00,400
Speaker 1: kids picture books because they get across usually within majery

1058
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 1: um at that period in a very succinct way, by

1059
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:07,080
Speaker 1: DVDs everything that I can get my hands on that's

1060
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 1: out of that period, So it's not just kind of

1061
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 1: dry nonfiction. I will try and dive into any fiction

1062
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 1: that exists at a certain time as well, because that's

1063
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 1: really what we're doing, telling stories, so you kind of um.

1064
00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 1: For me, obviously, a starting point for this was Lost Horizon,

1065
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:31,880
Speaker 1: which you know, obviously is the it's the first mention

1066
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 1: of Shango Lare in fact, and I think it was

1067
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:42,240
Speaker 1: written in two I could be wrong, but that was

1068
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 1: obviously an important starting point for me because I'm writing

1069
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:48,440
Speaker 1: a story about the starch for Shango Lare, so obviously

1070
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 1: I read that, and then I followed that up by

1071
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 1: watching the movies of that. And there are certain aspects

1072
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:56,240
Speaker 1: of those movies that have really nothing to do with

1073
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:59,600
Speaker 1: history other than the part of the history of cinema,

1074
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:02,240
Speaker 1: but I'll lean on that a little bit as well. So,

1075
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:05,240
Speaker 1: for example, the first version of Lost Her Eyes in

1076
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 1: the Black and White movie, which is problematic in so

1077
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 1: many ways, not least of which is that Shangola is

1078
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:16,280
Speaker 1: quite clearly an art deco mansion in l a Um,

1079
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:19,360
Speaker 1: But there's aspects of that that I try and get

1080
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:23,240
Speaker 1: some art deco into the design of Shango Lar in

1081
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 1: the movie. There are white doves in the black and

1082
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:30,280
Speaker 1: white version everywhere, and so of course I have white

1083
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:34,880
Speaker 1: doves on the balcony in my Yeti temple. So I

1084
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 1: think it's cherry picking. It's cherry picking what I want,

1085
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 1: what I like, what I find amusing, or what I

1086
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:45,520
Speaker 1: think enriches. And sometimes I'll read a lot and maybe

1087
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:47,880
Speaker 1: only use ten per cent of it because that's the

1088
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:50,520
Speaker 1: other thing is, like you know I said earlier, you

1089
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:55,120
Speaker 1: want something to to make your set incredible, but you

1090
01:00:55,200 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 1: don't want to alienate a viewer by being too slavish

1091
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 1: to reality. I mean, this is a story about a

1092
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:06,880
Speaker 1: talking bigfoot dressed as a man. Wait are you are

1093
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:12,560
Speaker 1: you telling me that's not a real thing. Well, this

1094
01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 1: could be a longer discussion than I anticipated. Um, but

1095
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:19,840
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's like, at some point

1096
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:23,200
Speaker 1: you can say it's okay if I'm not realistic with

1097
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:26,800
Speaker 1: this as an example Bigfoot. And this was one that

1098
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:29,760
Speaker 1: I wrestled with a lot because I do take history

1099
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 1: seriously and the use of the word bigfoot did not

1100
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:40,000
Speaker 1: start until, um, the nineteen fifties, I think in American journalism,

1101
01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:46,760
Speaker 1: and I think the Patterson footage wasn't until nineteen sixty something.

1102
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 1: So a lot of the ideas we have of bigfoot

1103
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:54,040
Speaker 1: as a creature came from the middle of the last century.

1104
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 1: Obviously I'm starting a lot before that, but I did

1105
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 1: for a while. I wrestled with I'm not going to

1106
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:02,720
Speaker 1: use the word bigfoot because it wasn't used back then.

1107
01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 1: Sell Lionel himself is a cryptozoologist. That term didn't exist

1108
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:11,600
Speaker 1: until the you know, the middle of the last century.

1109
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:15,280
Speaker 1: But there's a point where you like, does it matter?

1110
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:20,640
Speaker 1: So in fact, how only making a joke of bigfoot.

1111
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:23,280
Speaker 1: When Lionel holds up the cast of the foot, one

1112
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:25,320
Speaker 1: of the guys in the club says, oh, that's a

1113
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:28,960
Speaker 1: big foot, um, And that was That was my way

1114
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:33,440
Speaker 1: of nodding to the fact that historical accuracy, but also

1115
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:35,080
Speaker 1: trying to have a bit of fun with it as well.

1116
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 1: I probably think way too much about this stuff, but

1117
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 1: if people ask me, I certainly have reasons for all

1118
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 1: these decisions. I mean, at the end of the day,

1119
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:50,960
Speaker 1: you're a storyteller, right now. Do you, as a director,

1120
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 1: are you ever at odds with your right self when

1121
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:55,760
Speaker 1: it comes to grounding something like the Yetti Temple in

1122
01:02:56,480 --> 01:03:01,120
Speaker 1: a historically set piece of fiction, or or do those

1123
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 1: two sides of yourself play pretty nicely together. They play

1124
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:09,360
Speaker 1: pretty nicely with with me depending on where I am.

1125
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:13,400
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously what my tastes change, my my ideas

1126
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:15,960
Speaker 1: change over time, and if I'm writing something for a

1127
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:20,040
Speaker 1: long time, they can change quite a lot. But for

1128
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:23,480
Speaker 1: the Yeti Temple as an example, you know this, I've

1129
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:26,240
Speaker 1: also got to be delicate in a lot of my

1130
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:30,000
Speaker 1: decisions because we're not just talking about history as it

1131
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:33,920
Speaker 1: pertains to me culturally, but we're talking about the history

1132
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:36,880
Speaker 1: of other cultures. So for the Yeti Temple, you know

1133
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:40,800
Speaker 1: shangra La, it was an invention of an author, but

1134
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:43,960
Speaker 1: it's based on Shambler and there you know that that

1135
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:48,000
Speaker 1: has an importance in Buddhism. So I wanted to make

1136
01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 1: it clear that I'm not trying to make this the

1137
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:55,920
Speaker 1: shambler of a specific religion or faith. You know. What

1138
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:59,560
Speaker 1: I'm trying to do is create something that's separate from that.

1139
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:04,200
Speaker 1: But you could see why people can associate the two.

1140
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 1: When it came to the design of the temple, I

1141
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:11,320
Speaker 1: wanted to almost suggest that like yetis um, you know,

1142
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:16,440
Speaker 1: being eight men, essentially, we're like the square roots of

1143
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:20,840
Speaker 1: different cultures. So we referenced Jainism, we reference Buddhism in

1144
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:24,080
Speaker 1: terms of architectural styles, and this is really you know,

1145
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:27,240
Speaker 1: at this point, I hand this over to the production

1146
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:30,840
Speaker 1: designer and I talk about what my thoughts are um

1147
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:33,240
Speaker 1: And it's a story point in the movie, which actually

1148
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:36,200
Speaker 1: comes from a lost horizon that people who live in

1149
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:39,720
Speaker 1: Shango Lard don't age, when in fact, in this movie

1150
01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:43,120
Speaker 1: they're not immortal, they're yet ease in that they are

1151
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:46,440
Speaker 1: still primitive man, if that makes sense. So I wanted

1152
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:49,240
Speaker 1: to nod to that. And that's why we kind of thought, well,

1153
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:53,840
Speaker 1: if we backtrack from certain architectural styles and combine them

1154
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:56,120
Speaker 1: and almost find like the square root of them, what

1155
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:58,520
Speaker 1: could that look like. It's almost like if you were

1156
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:02,520
Speaker 1: designing Atlantis or you know, some of the fantastical place,

1157
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:06,480
Speaker 1: but you want it to be believable enough, so you

1158
01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:10,760
Speaker 1: do borrow from different designs, different styles, And I thought

1159
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:15,360
Speaker 1: Nelson did a really sophisticated job in finding the look

1160
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:18,080
Speaker 1: for that thing. I would concur that set as it

1161
01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:22,320
Speaker 1: was mind blowingly beautiful. Shifting back to kind of the industry,

1162
01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 1: in your opinion, what's been the most significant development in

1163
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:29,800
Speaker 1: stop motion film during your career, Like, what is the

1164
01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:32,280
Speaker 1: thing that future historians will be like, this was the

1165
01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:36,080
Speaker 1: moment that the industry shifted. I think it's two things. Generally.

1166
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 1: I think it's digital technology. Digital effects have enabled us

1167
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:44,960
Speaker 1: to tell different kinds of stories in stop motion. You know,

1168
01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:50,240
Speaker 1: stop motion traditionally was limited in its scope and scale

1169
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:54,040
Speaker 1: because you have physical assets, you have a puppet on

1170
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:56,800
Speaker 1: a set, so you're limited as to how big that

1171
01:05:56,840 --> 01:05:59,080
Speaker 1: public can be, how big that set can be. So

1172
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:01,880
Speaker 1: I think if you look historically, you can see that

1173
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:04,640
Speaker 1: in the kinds of stories that stop motion was telling.

1174
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:08,840
Speaker 1: And I think digital technology has allowed us to kind

1175
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:13,760
Speaker 1: of knock down the walls. With c G extras, digital

1176
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:18,120
Speaker 1: set extensions, we can paint on a much bigger canvas.

1177
01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:21,720
Speaker 1: And also just in terms of the complexity of the

1178
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:25,360
Speaker 1: animation because there's so much that clean up that can

1179
01:06:25,400 --> 01:06:28,000
Speaker 1: be done digitally, you know, in terms of rigging, puppet

1180
01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:33,040
Speaker 1: rigging um. That has changed the face of stop motion animation,

1181
01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:36,520
Speaker 1: no doubt, But I think For me specifically, it would

1182
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:41,040
Speaker 1: be facial animation, replacement places and three D printing of

1183
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:46,760
Speaker 1: faces that has enabled us to aspire to a level

1184
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:54,240
Speaker 1: of nuance and uh sophistication in acting facial acting that

1185
01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:58,400
Speaker 1: I think wasn't really possible before. I mean, you get

1186
01:06:58,440 --> 01:07:02,920
Speaker 1: some great practical or facial animation in stop motion, you

1187
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:06,040
Speaker 1: can achieve that, but I think we took it to

1188
01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 1: a whole other level. And actually it's one of the

1189
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:11,360
Speaker 1: things that I'm most proud of with Missing Link is

1190
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:14,800
Speaker 1: that I think we've approached a level of acting in

1191
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:18,160
Speaker 1: the facial animation that is like nothing that's been seen

1192
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:21,680
Speaker 1: or instop motion. You know, even the idea of up

1193
01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:24,080
Speaker 1: until this movie, we had like a kit system for

1194
01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:28,040
Speaker 1: the faces where we would build dialogue out of different

1195
01:07:28,040 --> 01:07:30,840
Speaker 1: faces that were in a kind of library. Well, with

1196
01:07:30,920 --> 01:07:35,760
Speaker 1: this movie, everything bespoke. Every shot has been independently animated

1197
01:07:36,080 --> 01:07:40,360
Speaker 1: and printed, so every performance is very much specific to

1198
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:43,000
Speaker 1: that line of dialogue, and I don't think that's been

1199
01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:48,280
Speaker 1: seen before instop motion. That's amazing. Ir to evidence your answer.

1200
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:51,080
Speaker 1: As I was prepping for this, I was rewatching Cubu

1201
01:07:51,440 --> 01:07:53,760
Speaker 1: and I had to posit at one point and Cubo

1202
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:55,960
Speaker 1: was kind of jumping through the air, and I thought, Oh,

1203
01:07:56,040 --> 01:07:57,920
Speaker 1: he would hate seeing that picture of himself because he's

1204
01:07:57,960 --> 01:08:00,280
Speaker 1: making a really weird face. And then I went, oh,

1205
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:03,680
Speaker 1: my god, they made him make a really weird face. Um,

1206
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:09,160
Speaker 1: so kudos you. It was a very strange kind of

1207
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:12,840
Speaker 1: meta moment. You know, I recently had a similar thing,

1208
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:16,880
Speaker 1: and that's when I feel confident in that we've done

1209
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:19,759
Speaker 1: our job right. You know, I've watched this movie again

1210
01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:22,080
Speaker 1: and again and again, hundreds and hundreds of times. I

1211
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:24,400
Speaker 1: attended to watch it every week while we were making it,

1212
01:08:25,280 --> 01:08:27,920
Speaker 1: because you need that kind of global perspective. But just

1213
01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:30,160
Speaker 1: a couple of months ago, I was watching the scene.

1214
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:32,559
Speaker 1: It was to a scene with Lionel and Link on

1215
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:35,360
Speaker 1: the ship, and just for a second, I caught myself

1216
01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:38,880
Speaker 1: because I completely believe that these characters were having a conversation,

1217
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:42,599
Speaker 1: and that's what I want. And if I can be fooled,

1218
01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:45,960
Speaker 1: even for just a second, if I can forget that

1219
01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:48,880
Speaker 1: I'm supposed to be doing a job, and then then

1220
01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:53,080
Speaker 1: we're doing something right, you know. Incidentally, Chris was exactly

1221
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:54,880
Speaker 1: right in his guests as to the year that the

1222
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:59,080
Speaker 1: book Lost Horizon came out. It was three. So finally,

1223
01:08:59,439 --> 01:09:02,000
Speaker 1: I want to back to my interview with Arian Settinger

1224
01:09:02,120 --> 01:09:04,160
Speaker 1: just for a moment to close this episode out, because

1225
01:09:04,160 --> 01:09:06,559
Speaker 1: I wanted to get her take on how today's stop

1226
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:09,080
Speaker 1: motion animation is going to look from the vantage point

1227
01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:12,080
Speaker 1: of the future. So, when historians of the future look

1228
01:09:12,160 --> 01:09:15,000
Speaker 1: back at this era in the industry and maybe even

1229
01:09:15,200 --> 01:09:20,120
Speaker 1: your career, what do you hope stands out? Oh, I

1230
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:23,040
Speaker 1: just I hope what stands out is that we made

1231
01:09:23,040 --> 01:09:27,240
Speaker 1: great movies. I mean, that's that's it really are. I believe,

1232
01:09:27,360 --> 01:09:30,719
Speaker 1: just like we're talking about Rudolph, our movies really endure

1233
01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:34,559
Speaker 1: there their personal and their universal. They look great a

1234
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:37,400
Speaker 1: decade later. You know, it just showed Coraline at this

1235
01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:41,840
Speaker 1: big concert hall here, the Schnitzer in Portland, and it

1236
01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:45,400
Speaker 1: was a you know, sold out crowd. People are still

1237
01:09:45,479 --> 01:09:48,479
Speaker 1: interested in that movie. And I think that's the two

1238
01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:50,679
Speaker 1: of a lot of stop motion animations. I hope that,

1239
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:54,040
Speaker 1: you know, I hope future generations find them interesting and

1240
01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:57,080
Speaker 1: watch them and share them. And he said, it's a

1241
01:09:57,080 --> 01:09:59,559
Speaker 1: heavy question. I think that none of us really at

1242
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:04,519
Speaker 1: the legure sitting back and aspecting what we doural impact

1243
01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:08,160
Speaker 1: while you're doing it. But I would say that you do.

1244
01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:10,880
Speaker 1: We do try to make as much meaning into these

1245
01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:15,040
Speaker 1: movies as we go along and hoping that people find it,

1246
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:20,719
Speaker 1: you know, relatable and meaningful and often food for thought.

1247
01:10:21,720 --> 01:10:24,439
Speaker 1: Many many thanks to everyone at like for sharing their

1248
01:10:24,479 --> 01:10:27,000
Speaker 1: time and thoughts and the love of their craft with us.

1249
01:10:27,439 --> 01:10:30,479
Speaker 1: In case it's not abundantly obvious, the whole experience of

1250
01:10:30,479 --> 01:10:32,760
Speaker 1: getting to visit their set and speak with the people

1251
01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:35,360
Speaker 1: whose work I have been admiring for years, It's an

1252
01:10:35,360 --> 01:10:38,160
Speaker 1: absolute joy for me. It felt like an early birthday present.

1253
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:41,160
Speaker 1: Missing Link is opening this weekend April twelve, so if

1254
01:10:41,160 --> 01:10:43,679
Speaker 1: you're in the mood for a stylish round the World romp,

1255
01:10:43,880 --> 01:10:47,560
Speaker 1: also funny and rooted in history, go check it out. Yeah,

1256
01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:49,840
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do super short listener mail because this is

1257
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:53,680
Speaker 1: a long episode. Okay, if you're still hanging in with me,

1258
01:10:56,000 --> 01:10:59,160
Speaker 1: we're gonna have a quick email from Sue, who writes Hi,

1259
01:10:59,240 --> 01:11:01,759
Speaker 1: Holly and Tracy. I am a third grade teacher teaching

1260
01:11:01,760 --> 01:11:04,760
Speaker 1: social studies, particularly history topics is my favorite part of

1261
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:07,400
Speaker 1: the day. I love it, and my students love it.

1262
01:11:07,640 --> 01:11:10,240
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed finding your podcast, and as I've been

1263
01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:13,520
Speaker 1: making my way through the archives, I particularly choose episodes

1264
01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:17,960
Speaker 1: that enhance the topics I teach, civil rights, Titanic, early settlements, inventions,

1265
01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:20,840
Speaker 1: and inventors, just to name a few. Though most of

1266
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:23,000
Speaker 1: the details in your podcasts are a little too much

1267
01:11:23,040 --> 01:11:25,639
Speaker 1: for my nine year olds to consume, I often throw

1268
01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:28,160
Speaker 1: out random facts that add to the lesson. I might

1269
01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:30,799
Speaker 1: say I was recently listening to a story about blank

1270
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:33,679
Speaker 1: and learned blank. Yesterday, we were going through a book

1271
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:36,160
Speaker 1: about popular inventions, and a few times in the book

1272
01:11:36,200 --> 01:11:39,040
Speaker 1: I was sharing extra comments. When I turned the page

1273
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Speaker 1: to begin talking about the next invention, one student perked

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01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:43,320
Speaker 1: up and asked, did you just hear a story about

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Speaker 1: this one too? I'm so glad I can learn daily

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01:11:48,160 --> 01:11:49,880
Speaker 1: and add to my teaching through the work you do.

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Speaker 1: Keep it up, and I look forward to catching up

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01:11:51,800 --> 01:11:54,519
Speaker 1: on all the years archives. Thank you so much, Sue,

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01:11:54,560 --> 01:11:56,479
Speaker 1: and also thank you for being an educator. My hat

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01:11:56,560 --> 01:11:58,880
Speaker 1: is always off to teachers, and I feel like they

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01:11:58,880 --> 01:12:01,040
Speaker 1: need a lot more love than they generally get. So

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Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, thank you. If you would like

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01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:04,479
Speaker 1: to write to us, you can do so at History

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01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:07,000
Speaker 1: Podcast at how stuff works dot com. You can also

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01:12:07,040 --> 01:12:09,719
Speaker 1: find us everywhere on social media as Missed in History,

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01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:12,200
Speaker 1: and our website is missed in History dot com, where

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01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:14,040
Speaker 1: you can find all of the episodes that have ever

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01:12:14,080 --> 01:12:16,360
Speaker 1: existed to the show and work through the archives like

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Speaker 1: Sue is doing. If you would like to subscribe to

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01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:21,360
Speaker 1: the podcasts, I highly encourage it. You can do that

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01:12:21,479 --> 01:12:24,160
Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, at Apple Podcasts, or

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01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:31,960
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to podcasts. Stuff you Missed in History

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01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:35,000
Speaker 1: Class is a production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the iHeart

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01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:40,800
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

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01:12:40,840 --> 01:12:41,519
Speaker 1: favorite shows.