1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. Julie, 4 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: I describe your desk here at work for us, Well, 5 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: today it's a little messy. I have some stacks of paper, 6 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: I have a tiger, I have clu waca av my 7 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: sign uh, and I don't know, just a bunch of 8 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: other myrriad objects there. Yeah. Yeah, I've got a beautiful leaf, uh, 9 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 1: photos uh, Kinsey knife yeah yeah, you um well, minds 10 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: a lot neater now, Like we we moved to locations 11 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: shortly after my son arrived, so for the longest my 12 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 1: desk was pretty messed up because it's just like a 13 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: pile of art that I wanted to somehow stick to 14 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: our art resistant surfaces around our desk area, like the wall. 15 00:00:57,600 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: It's not really cubicle, but just I'm lucky enough to 16 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: have to surfaces like the wall in front of me, 17 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 1: the wall beside me. But it's it's it's made in 18 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: a way to where you can't it's really difficult to 19 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: stick things to and uh and the only way you 20 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: can really do it is like this, this sort of 21 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: complex system where you use uh, pins and um and 22 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: tape at the same time and kind of like sow 23 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: your art into the wall and it takes forever. So that, yeah, 24 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: it's really the only way to do it. So for 25 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: the longest, my desk was just like piles of notes 26 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,759 Speaker 1: for podcast book screen about a monitor that I didn't 27 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: have hooked up yet. Um and you know, it's just 28 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: just awful. I saw it as a fortress of papers 29 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: and books, like you were walling everybody out. I know 30 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: it probably looked pretty bad with the monitor because the 31 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: monitor was was not hooked up, and it was like 32 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: between me and Jonathan Strickland as if I was never 33 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:47,199 Speaker 1: going to hook up this monitor and I was gonna 34 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: use it slowly as a divider and uh and so 35 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: I'm glad to have that hooked up so people can see, Oh, 36 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: he's not just a defensive clutter. Yeah he was. He 37 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: was going to get there, go somewhere with that at 38 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: some point. So yeah, well, and we are going to 39 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: talk to you about spaces, orderly spaces, chaotic spaces, how 40 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: do they affect us? And I will say that I 41 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: do like a nice orderly space, but when I'm working 42 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: on a project, things spirals sort of everywhere, and that 43 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 1: makes sense to me because I'm referencing a lot of 44 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: different things. But I might be an order muppet an order. Okay, 45 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: this is the idea that, of course we have casks 46 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: in order. The two great movements in life, right, A 47 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: movement towards order, a movement away from order. Of course, 48 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: to quote while Stevens the poet, a violent order is 49 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 1: a disorder, and a great disorder is an order, and 50 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: these two things are one. So it's a complicated topic. 51 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: There's a lot of back and forth, but a simplified 52 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: way is too. Indeed, look at Jim Hinson's The Muppets 53 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: and divide them into agents of order and agents of chaos. 54 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: That's right. Dahlia Lithwick, writing for Slate, talked about this, 55 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: this idea that you either fall into one of two 56 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: categories chaos muppet, which are out of control, emotional, volatile. 57 00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: They tend towards this is for saying this. They tend 58 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 1: towards the blue and fuzzy. They make their way through 59 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: life in a swirling maelstrom of food crumbs, small flaming objects, 60 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: and the letter C. We're talking about Cookie Monster, Ernie Grover, Guns, 61 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: Dr Bunsen, Honeydew Animal, and she says, Zelda Fitzgerald, here's 62 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: here's a historical figure who was a chaos Muppet. Okay, 63 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: But on the other side, you've got your order Muppet. 64 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 1: And she says she's thinking about Bert Scooter Sam the 65 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: Eagle Kermit of course, right, and the blue guy who 66 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: is perennially harassed by Grover at restaurants. She says, the 67 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: order Muppet, every Man, that blue Guy. They tend to 68 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: be neurotic, highly regimented, averse to surprises, and they sport 69 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: monstrously large eyebrows. She said. They represent the responsibility of 70 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: running the world and they feel weighed down by it, 71 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: but they secretly revel the knowledge that they keep things afloat. Okay, Yeah, 72 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: which are you? Well, we were talking about this earlier 73 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: and I'm still struggling to come with an answer because 74 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 1: I'm definitely not the guy who threw the sword fish. 75 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: Like that's like to me, like he and uh An 76 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: Animal are right up there like the extremes of chaos 77 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: mupet Gonzo too. Really, they're they're right up there at 78 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: the threshold of of of utter chaos. And then of 79 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: course on the other end, you have uh, Sam the Eagle, 80 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: I guess would be like the most orderly Muppet because 81 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:23,359 Speaker 1: Kermit will wave his arms around a bit. But but 82 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: Sam is a rock and he's gonna stick to it, 83 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: uh no matter what. And I feel like I'm maybe 84 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: a little more towards the middle. So it's hard to 85 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: hard to I mean, maybe some of the members of 86 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 1: the band were a little more balanced and laid back, 87 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: but I don't think I'm a doctor, both because I 88 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: had to have seen you as a chaos muppet when 89 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: you're working and you're in the middle of something. But 90 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: I have also seen you as the order muppet who 91 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: every six months goes around the office and says, why 92 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,359 Speaker 1: is all this chalk around and clings things up and 93 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: you get rid of all the jars of urine and 94 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: whatnot hanging around. Well, maybe I'm maybe I'm kind of 95 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: like the Count, because the Count is there's yes, the 96 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: Count one, two, three, Uh, he's because he's orderly in 97 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: a very and he's all about the numbers. But this 98 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: his obsession with the numbers tends to disrupt everything else 99 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,919 Speaker 1: in his life. So I feel I feel like, maybe 100 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:15,919 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that it's a one to one comparison, 101 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: but I feel like I'm kind of that kind of 102 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: mixed where they're they're parts of me that are very orderly, 103 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: but sometimes those get in the way of other stuff 104 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: and causes disorder over here. I'm kind of in flux. 105 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,919 Speaker 1: I guess well, I'm with Dhlia Lithwick. She says that 106 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: she is a faux chaos muppet. Yeah, but at the 107 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: center is order. What about you? That's what I'm saying. 108 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: I'm with I'm with her, that your faux chaos muppet. Okay, yeah, 109 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 1: but it also depends on the situation and um my 110 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:48,039 Speaker 1: environments and everybody's environment as well. Discuss But the thing is, 111 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: those chaos muppets, they always get a bad rap, right 112 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: because the surroundings they don't look so good, and people 113 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: perceive them as you know, just sort of lay about 114 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: who can't even be bothered to clean up their spaces. 115 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: In fact, it brings to mind the broken windows theory, right, 116 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: the idea that that the way that you ultimately combat 117 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: um social upheaval and problems of crime is that you 118 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 1: focus on all the little things you focus on. Say 119 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 1: that broken window or some graffiti because of the windows 120 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:18,799 Speaker 1: are broken. If there's graffiti on the wall, it's sending 121 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: this message to everyone else that minor transgressions are okay, 122 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,559 Speaker 1: and therefore we can extrapolate that that the less minor 123 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 1: and fractions are okay as well. And then it becomes 124 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: more and more chaotic. It builds up like kibble. Yeah, 125 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: like one broken window begets several broken windows, and then 126 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: all of a sudden you've got mayhem going on. And 127 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 1: I think about the Crag Street Tunnel in Atlanta as 128 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: an example of a graffiti ridden tunnel but also an 129 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: example of extreme creativity. In fact, on any given day 130 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: you can pass by this tunnel and see people getting 131 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: their photograph taken in front of it or making videos 132 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 1: in front of it, because ultimately it's this stand in 133 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: for an act of creativity. Yeah, it's a graffiti free zone. 134 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: And I think about this a lot every time I 135 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: go past it. I wonder about graffiti free zones and 136 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: to what extent, uh, basically, what affect they have on creativity, 137 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: because it's not it's it's a situation where suddenly it's 138 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: not just like a daring graffiti artist can go there 139 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: and tag. And it's not just you know, somebody throwing 140 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: up some sort of a gang tag either. It's everybody, 141 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: even people who would normally not even think about it. Well, 142 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: the crop tunnel does have a good amount of very 143 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: interesting art, and what I think it's interesting about it 144 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: is that it requires you to stop and take a 145 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: second look. And so that's sort of this idea that 146 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: we're going to look at when we talk about spaces, 147 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: in particular workspaces clutter versus order. Yes, all right, So 148 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: as luck would have it, we have a study that 149 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: looks at how um chaotic versus clean, neat and orderly 150 00:07:54,520 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: environments affect our productivity, affect our creativity, affect our sponse 151 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: to stimuli. Because again, to your point, we tend to 152 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: put it in a quick Felix and Oscar odd couple 153 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: scenario right where one is the slav and one is 154 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: the orderly individual, and and the slab is just he's 155 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: just a slab. All he's doing is contributing to the 156 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: comedic environment. But that's about it. Where it's it's this 157 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: is study reveals it's a lot more nuanced than that, 158 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: and it's actually a really good study for those of 159 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: us whose desk get a little bit um chaotic from 160 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: time to time. The title this study is physical order 161 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 1: produces healthy choices, generosity, and conventionality, whereas disorder produces creativity. 162 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: It's a two thousand thirteen paper from the Carlson School 163 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: of Management at the University of Minnesota, and it's it. 164 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: It basically revolves around three different experiments involving an orderly 165 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,319 Speaker 1: work environment and a disorderly work environment. Yeah, and let's 166 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: just read out the first line, because I think this 167 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: sets the tone. The first line is order and disorder 168 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: are prevalent in both nature and culture, which suggests that 169 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: each environ confers advance edges for different outcomes. So it's 170 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: not so black and white as the order and the 171 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: chaos muppets. Yeah, it's not a situation where all right, 172 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: we have the orderly muppets in the calf muppets are 173 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: just tearing down society. Like, both have survived, both have 174 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: are here due to an evolutionary process, so they must 175 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 1: both must both be important. Like I always come back 176 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: to the cuttlefish and about how you have these larger 177 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: cuttle fish that are mating and you have the masculine 178 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: cuttlefish who are all about brute strength and UH and 179 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: say and and just making sure they get their mate 180 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: that way. And then you have the sneakier, smaller cuttlefish 181 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: who disguised themselves as females. And the ultimate take home 182 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:40,319 Speaker 1: there is that cuttlefish evolution UH has favored both styles, 183 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 1: both types of cuttlefish, and ultimately both types of cuttlefish 184 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: are necessary for the survival of the species. And so 185 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 1: we see a similar thing with disorder muppets and order 186 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: muppets in human society. And you see this in this study, 187 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 1: which is so interesting because, as you mentioned, there are 188 00:09:55,800 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 1: three experiments that Kathleen DeVos and the other re searchers conducted, 189 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: and in the first experiment, they randomly assigned a group 190 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: of college age students to spend time in adjacent office spaces. 191 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: One was tidy, the other was cluttered with papers and 192 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: other work related to try to us, and the students 193 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 1: spent their time filling out questionnaires that were unrelated to 194 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: the study, so the students didn't know really why they 195 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 1: were there. After ten minutes, they were told they could 196 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: leave and they were offered an apple or a chocolate bar. Okay, 197 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: So those students who sat in the orderly office were 198 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: twice as likely to choose the apple than those who 199 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: sat amid the chaotic mess of papers. In addition, when 200 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: the participants were presented with the opportunity to donate to 201 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,079 Speaker 1: a charity, those placed in the orderly room donated more 202 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: of their own money. Interesting. Okay, so what's coming out 203 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: of this? The pro I guess you could say for 204 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: the orderly room here is that we were talking about 205 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: more civic minded behavior, more generous and conscientious at least 206 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: in terms of their diets. You know, their their minding, 207 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: their peas and cues. Now, what strikes me about this 208 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: experiment is it I inevitably draw back to our our 209 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 1: podcasts about symbols and the power of symbols, and the 210 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,959 Speaker 1: idea too about clothed cognition, that our our clothing is 211 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 1: a kind of symbol that informs how we behave and 212 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: how we carry ourselves. And here we see a physical 213 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: environment that is a symbol for order, a symbol for 214 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: what is expected of us, uh, the symbol for cleanliness, 215 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: and that kind of translates into our mind in terms 216 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,719 Speaker 1: of cleanliness of of ethics, cleanliness of of our of 217 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: our of our dietary habits and uh and and just 218 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: an interesting insight into how spaces control our behavior. So yeah, 219 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: back to the broken window theory. If you're in that 220 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: room that's cluttered, messy, apparently nobody has been paying attention. 221 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: You could eat that chocolate bar. You don't need to 222 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: give that much money to charity, right. Yeah. It also 223 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: reminds me of the Panopticon, you know, because because the 224 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: Panopticon is of course a structure of order. And if 225 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: you if things are disorderly, then you're you're thinking, well, 226 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: I guess nobody's watching. It doesn't it doesn't matter. But 227 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: if everything is lined up, if everything seems to be 228 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: in this heightened states state of order, then you also 229 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: feel like you're more responsible for your actions. Okay, so 230 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: if you out there are messy desk dwellers, you probably 231 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 1: wanted to get vindicated here and you will in the 232 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: next study. Yeah. So similar deal participants were put into 233 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 1: the messy room with disorder everywhere they put into the nice, clean, 234 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: or early room. But this time they're asked to come 235 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,439 Speaker 1: up with new uses for ping pong balls and and 236 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: so and of course, which makes me wonder, how many 237 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: different uses can you find for ping pong balls. They're 238 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: pretty pretty specific and what you can do with them, 239 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: but I'll leave that to everyone's imagination. Uh. Anyway, the result, overall, 240 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 1: participants in the messy room came up with the same 241 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: number of ideas for new ways to use these ping 242 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,319 Speaker 1: pong balls as the clean room counterparts, but their ideas 243 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,839 Speaker 1: were rated as more interesting and creative when evaluated by 244 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: the judges. So dependent judges. The judges they were judging, 245 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: they just like a list of ideas, brainstormed ideas for 246 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: what you could do with a pair of ping ball 247 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: balls and anyway, So ultimately we're showing here that participants 248 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: in the disorderly room were more creative. They were able 249 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: to come up with more novel ideas for what to 250 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: do with those ping boonballs, which again a very limited 251 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: object to have to brainstorm around. Then they're clean room counterparts. 252 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: So making this case that creativity or the ability to 253 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,959 Speaker 1: take a risk in your thought processes is also borne 254 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: out in their final experiment, in which they were given 255 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: the choice of adding a health boost to their lunch 256 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: time smoothie that was labeled either new or classic. Guests 257 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: who chose the classic, well, the classic is going to 258 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,839 Speaker 1: be chosen by the clean room people because they want 259 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 1: to stick with something that is proven, that is established. 260 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: They're not going to take any risk on some sort 261 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: of new fangled smoothie editive, that's right. But those in 262 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,439 Speaker 1: the messy room, they were like, bringing on, want the 263 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: new formula. Let's go crazy with this smoothie. Just put 264 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: everything in it. I don't care, wood chips, ping pong balls. Yeah, 265 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: the ping pong ball smoothie was born of this experiment, 266 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: I bet. Yeah. So that messy environment can actually cause 267 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: people to feel inspired to break free of tradition, right 268 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: to say, Okay, that window is broken, let's let's do 269 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: something with that. Let's make some artwork out of it. 270 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: You know. I feel like at times it even it 271 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: even helps to have like a disorder avatar to turn to, 272 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: you know, like like a figure like an animal or 273 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: a hunter s Thompson, where you could you you sort 274 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: of think around them, you sort of you sort of 275 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: live vicariously through them for a few moments, and it 276 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: has an overall creative benefit to you, sort of like 277 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: a spirit animal. Yeah, like you know, you have a 278 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: spirit animal is animal you can sort of draw from 279 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: that and uh and yeah, and at least for for 280 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: for a little bit. As you you you sort of 281 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: bath in his glow, you're able to feel a little 282 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: more liberated, a little bit more daring in your ideas. 283 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: All right, let's take a quick break, and when come back, 284 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: we are going to try to get at the bottom 285 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: of why this creativity, in this sort of inspiration and 286 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: perhaps even learning are linked to messy environments. All right, 287 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: we're back, and you know it just real quick, you know, 288 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: talking about working in disorderly environments, chaotic environments. And I 289 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: think to coffee shops again, a place where both of 290 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: you and I working coffee shops a lot, and there's 291 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: a lot of really interesting history about the coffee shops 292 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: roll in uh in creative thought in Western culture, and 293 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: that is a chaotic environment. And in the best of situations, 294 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: because you have people ordering different drinks, you have all 295 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: sorts of weird sounds of the espresso. You know, God 296 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: knows what kind of music we're gonna play. People from 297 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: an in and out, and if you're lucky, it's a 298 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: variety of people. So it's you know, it's beautiful people, 299 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: ugly people. People you know, from from the top of 300 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: the ivory tower, people who sleep under the tower, all 301 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: coming into the same space, and it I for one, 302 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: feel that creative energy rolling off of it. Yeah. I 303 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: mean you talked about the periody of enlightenment and this 304 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: convergence of coffee houses, people turning away from from the liquor, 305 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: from the alcohol and going towards coffee as a stimulant 306 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: and as a result, sharing more of their ideas in 307 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: this community centered, uh sort of area, And the same 308 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: thing today is going on. Although a lot of us 309 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: are wearing headphones, you do get exposure to everyone, and 310 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: so it does make sense to me that the chaos 311 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: of all of that might create these associations that would 312 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: help you kind of ping pong around until you get 313 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: these novel associations, these novel ideas. In fact um, it 314 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: really helps when you're studying a topic. And most people think, oh, 315 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: when I go to study, it should be in a quiet, 316 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: orderly room. But there is a New York Times article 317 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: called Forget what You Know about good study habits, and 318 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: it says in a classic nine experiments, psychologist found that 319 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: college students who study need a list of forty vocabulary 320 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: words in two different rooms, one window lists and cluttered 321 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: and the other modern with a view of the courtyard 322 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: did far better on a test than students who studied 323 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: the words twice in the same room, And later studies 324 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: have confirmed the confirmed the finding for a variety of topics. 325 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 1: So the idea here is that the outside context is varied, 326 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 1: the information is enriched, and this slows down the forgetting 327 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: process because the more layers of chaos, I guess you 328 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: could say here, um, the more sort of patterns and 329 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 1: things that you have to take in data, the more 330 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,719 Speaker 1: points of association your brain makes to whatever it is 331 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: that you are concentrating on at that very moment, and 332 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 1: so it becomes a stickier memory for people. Yeah, and 333 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: it lines up kind of well with what Wall Steven 334 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:47,679 Speaker 1: says about the more chaos you have, the chaos kind 335 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 1: of becomes an order, and the more order you have, 336 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: it kind of comes comes more and more chaotic. Now, 337 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 1: in talking about learning and chaos, one has to visit 338 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: the world of the child, of the todd of the baby, 339 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: because for one thing is we've touched on many times before. 340 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: Humans are natural born scientists, even the very little wee ones, 341 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 1: their their their brains are open to the world. There 342 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: they have this lamp like view of things. They're bringing 343 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 1: in all this data, but at the same time, they 344 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 1: often seem to be agents of chaos. They seem to 345 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: revel in making a mess. They seem to know no 346 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: other way of life than to smear it on the 347 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: wall on their face, to eat noddles with their hands, 348 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 1: and then and then rub their their pesto covered fingers 349 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: through their hair. I mean, never was there a better 350 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:43,360 Speaker 1: chaos muppet than any child, particularly the age of two. Yeah, 351 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: they are all animal uh and with maybe a little 352 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: Gonza or the swordfish dude thrown in for for that 353 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: whole period of time. I actually had a professor in 354 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: college who said that the reason why children love animals 355 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: and stories is that they tend to really um mine 356 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: with them and be like and see themselves as animals, 357 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: unpredictable and crazy and running around until they get more 358 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,120 Speaker 1: of their humanness under their belts. But in this case, 359 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: there is a study that shoes up this idea that 360 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 1: this uh animal like behavior is helpful in learning things. Yes, 361 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: researches at the University of Iowa study how sixteen month 362 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: old children learn words for non solid objects. So we're 363 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: talking about stuff like oatmeal, glue, peace peas, uh, you know, mucus. Uh, 364 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: all the various non solid objects that they be coming 365 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: out or going into your child. There's a lot of 366 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: traffic there. Uh. Now, previous researches coming out for sure, 367 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, out the nose that it just happens. Now, 368 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: the previous research on this topic had shown that Toddler's 369 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 1: learn more readily about solid objects because they can easily 370 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: identify them due to their unchanging size and shape. So 371 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: an apple is always shaped like an apple, whereas apple sauce, 372 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: you know, is shaped like whatever the container is. That's 373 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:03,879 Speaker 1: basic physics and they get it and their brain is 374 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: processing that data. So but but but the previous data said, yeah, 375 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 1: as far as the oozy stuff, the running stuff, the 376 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,479 Speaker 1: apple sauce, the snot the pas, but what have you, 377 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,360 Speaker 1: They were that they're maybe not as good about identifying 378 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: that stuff. Now, what this study did. The researchers decided 379 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 1: to test this. They said, is this really the case? 380 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: Is it's just you know, our bias on this particular situation. 381 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: So they exposed sixth sixteen month olds to fourteen non 382 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: solid objects. Mostly it was food and drink stuff like 383 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 1: you know, apple sauce and pudding and soup. And then 384 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 1: they presented the items and gave them made up words. 385 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: So like some of the examples though, we're like Dax 386 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: and Kiv, nonwords used to uh to identify these various 387 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 1: gooey foods. So that this is this idea that they're 388 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: to be purity here, there's no associations because other words 389 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: that they might have learned in relation to this exactly, 390 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: just to test what the sort of information they would 391 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: retain by interaction with this food exactly. And then a 392 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: minute passes and they asked the children to identify the 393 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: same foods in different sizes or shapes uh, so you know, 394 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: again different containers, different visual presentation of this non solid doctor. 395 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: And then so this required the answers to go beyond 396 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 1: relying simply on shape and size and to explore what 397 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: the substances were made off to make the identification. So 398 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,719 Speaker 1: you can see where this is going in terms of 399 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 1: how toddlers behave with with dewey foods and UH, and 400 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 1: how you might interact with them. So of course they 401 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: started prodding it and probing it and pushing it up 402 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: in their fingers and smearing it out on their bodies, 403 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: throwing it at the walls, watching the noodles worm their 404 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: way down right, and rubbing it into their heads. Just 405 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: just just this ecstasy of of of handling the non 406 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: solid stuffs and this tactile experience actually allow this toddlers 407 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: to learn to better learn the names of foods when 408 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: they got to play with them. Yeah, which I love 409 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: this idea because all of a sudden, everything in that 410 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: world makes sense. As a parent, when when your kid 411 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 1: is lobbying this this disgusting liquefied peace at your face. Yeah, 412 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 1: you think, ah, yes, you're learning, my love. They transforms 413 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: this moment where they're playing with with pricey organic apple 414 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:22,640 Speaker 1: sauce or something, you know, and you're just like, are 415 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: you're wasting your food? You're playing with it, why don't 416 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 1: you eat it? And it turns that into this fabulous 417 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 1: moment of oh, you were discovering the universe. You are, 418 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 1: you were learning, you're using your your tactile senses to 419 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: better identify non fluid objects. It's uh, it's it's the 420 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: kind of study that makes makes parenting a little easier. 421 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:45,360 Speaker 1: It really does. And you sent uh some pictures of children, 422 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: toddlers who were just covered in various kinds of pasta, 423 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: including spaghetti that I think, I don't know how you're 424 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: going to feel about. This made me want to jump 425 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 1: in there with them. Really yeah, oh, we'll see. This 426 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: is if you do a search, do like a Google 427 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: image search for pasta party or toddler pasta party, baby 428 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: pasta party, you have to play around with a little bit. 429 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: You will see images of this where generally it'll consist 430 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 1: of like a very small child swimming pool filled with 431 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 1: pasta noodles, cooked pasta noodles, and then there'll be some 432 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: like naked or maybe diapered or swimsuited babies in there 433 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: just lounging around with handfuls, just fistfuls of spaghetti, some 434 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: of it in their mouth, you know, fist in it 435 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: right into their mouth, smearing it on their bodies, noodles 436 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: hanging off of them, and uh, it can be a 437 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: bit frightening, especially since U some of the photography is 438 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: good and some of it is a little sketchy looking. 439 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: Well you see, you sent that to me, and I'm 440 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: a really tuckedile person and my first impulse was like, yeah, 441 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 1: I want to feel that. I want to feel those 442 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: spirals of pasta in my hands and I want to 443 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: squish them. I actually started to grip my cheek. Well, 444 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: I tell you, I first discovered this phenomenon, uh, prior 445 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: to having a son, and at the time I was like, 446 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: this is this is grim. This looks like something out 447 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: of a horror movie. I want no part of this. Now, 448 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 1: I have to say that my my thinking on it is, well, 449 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: if I knew for certain that it would distract him 450 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: for thirty minutes, I would totally fill that tub up 451 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: with with noodles. Uh. So you're your perspective on these changes, 452 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: and certainly, knowing what we know now from the study, 453 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: I definitely see the value in it. Now you could 454 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: go to go a little overboard. You could decide that 455 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: you're you need to throw a party for every non 456 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: fluid object or slightly squishy your gooey thing, uh, and 457 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: then you're just just just gonna eat your food budget up. 458 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: I'm not a fan of the world peas in a 459 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: kiddie pool. I'm going to stick to the pasta myself. 460 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 1: But it does give you this idea that you have 461 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: this uh, this access to this rich patina of associations. 462 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: If you're trying to figure out the world. If you're 463 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: trying to explore it, name it. Then the more you 464 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: can add to that database, including tactile things. But that 465 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 1: would allow you to know that this noodle is squishy, 466 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: or this noodle is spiral, this noodle is super long 467 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: and thin. The more you can really get a bead 468 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 1: on what this whole kind of human existence thing is. Yeah, 469 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: and and and certainly educators are onto this. You know, 470 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 1: you go to a you go to a museum that 471 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 1: really has a robust children's area or or a children's 472 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: museum a hands on learning center. I mean, that's the 473 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: kind of stuff they're gonna they're gonna really push. It's 474 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: not just look at the alligator. Here's a section of 475 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 1: of of an alligator's hide or a representation of it. 476 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: You can actually touch. Here is some It's one thing 477 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: to look at some sea life in the in the 478 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,880 Speaker 1: aquarium behind glass, but let's actually have a touchdank where 479 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: you can reach in and actually have that tactile experience. 480 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: And uh and and all of that, uh, you know, 481 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: makes just so much more sense once you once you 482 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 1: really dive into the data here, I think it's adult 483 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: swe shild erasist as well before we're learning new things. 484 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 1: Perhaps not everybody would like to see us squishing pasta 485 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 1: or other types of adventures, but you know, well, I'm 486 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 1: I'm writing something for the upside about chemical weapons right now. 487 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: I'm probably not going to try and saren or or 488 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 1: mustard gas or or clorine gas on my own just 489 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 1: to have that pacto experience, because those are certainly um 490 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,199 Speaker 1: non solid objects. I'm glad that you've made that decision 491 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 1: not to do that. All right. Well, on that note, 492 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: let's call the robot over and catch up on some 493 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: listener mail. All right, This one comes to us from Jerry, 494 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 1: who's responding to our Panopticon episode. He says, Hello, Julian Robert, 495 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 1: I just finished listening to your episode on the Panopticon, 496 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 1: which I found both interesting and informative. I am in 497 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 1: the business of information security, and one aspect of the 498 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 1: Panopticon as life concept that may not be obvious to 499 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: all is that it isn't always a deterrent against antisocial behavior. 500 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: In fact, it can have quite the opposite effect by 501 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: inciting a segment of society into antisocial behavior. A great 502 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,199 Speaker 1: example of that is the hacktivist Anonymous movement of the 503 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 1: past few years. Now. Those movements are all over the 504 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: map in terms of motivations, but a common focal point 505 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: is on the loss of privacy, liberties and so on. 506 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: As an observer, it's particularly interesting to watch as the 507 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: establishments they are rebellion against use the very rebellion to 508 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 1: justify additional laws which further erode those things that the 509 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 1: activists are fighting for in the first place. I also 510 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: think that a key element of the movement is for 511 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: participants to stay out of the eye of the panopticon 512 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: as they carry out protests by using various means of obstucation, 513 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 1: hence the name anonymous. To carry on the analogy, the 514 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: movement uses the gaps in the panopticon's vision to hide 515 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: their antisocial behavior, at least what those involved believed to 516 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,719 Speaker 1: be gaps, as recent prosecutions would lead one to realize 517 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 1: the shadows are not as dark as they might see. 518 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: I think that is an important faucet because I strongly 519 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,360 Speaker 1: suspect that the desire to rebel would be far smaller, 520 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 1: if not non existent, if those involved were carrying out 521 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: their activities in the public eye. Like social disobedience of 522 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: days gone by in respect, the panopticon both drives them 523 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 1: to rebel and drives them to do so only from 524 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: the perceived blind spots of the watchful eye. Anyhow, I 525 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 1: thought it was an interesting active. They didn't come up 526 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: on the show, Jerry. I think that Jerry gives us 527 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 1: so much to think about here because mostly and I'm 528 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: going to play a lot of Devil's advocate here, but 529 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 1: I think mostly that when we think about anonymous or hacktivists, 530 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: we tend to think of it more as them bringing 531 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: transparency to previously hidden information. But what he is saying 532 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 1: is very interesting in the fact that they're not out 533 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:28,920 Speaker 1: there front and center actually allows them, people who are 534 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,199 Speaker 1: not necessarily trying to bring things to transparency, to be 535 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 1: a little bit more devious and that they should be 536 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: out there front and center to actually enact justice. But 537 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: the question is do you think that they could. Do 538 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: you think that the anonymous activists, the people who are 539 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: you know, on the side of social justice? I should say, 540 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: do you think that if they were there for us 541 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: to see that they could accomplish the same amount of 542 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: information as the question? Yeah, I don't know. I have 543 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: my I have my doubts on that too. It seems like, 544 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: you know, to his point, the days of like pure 545 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: social disobedience, Um, I mean, you still see examples of it, 546 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: but it's hard to imagine large masses of people engaging 547 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: in it without mass these days. Of course, he's coming 548 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: at it from a security perspective, and so it's just 549 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: really interesting to to bring that to light. So yeah, 550 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: if anybody has any thoughts, and I'd love to know, 551 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: because this is a very rich argument pro and con, 552 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: and Jerry makes some really good points. All right, Well, 553 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: here's another bit of listener maile related to the Panopticon episode. 554 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: Um Hi, guys Sean from Saskatoon here with the with 555 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: the least to contribute to a conversation that I've ever 556 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: had in so far as my primary idea of boils 557 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: down to nothing. Sounds good, Do go on? He says, 558 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 1: I believe that the normalization associated with having an all 559 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: seeing I on seven does not necessarily lead to a 560 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: perpetual state of stress of paranoia. We're not equipped to 561 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: handle something like that, and those who do do so 562 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: not because of an external situation but a chemical imbalance. 563 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: It's the very basis for realization. I'm thinking primarily of 564 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: a study examining driving habits in the real world, where 565 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: cameras were mounted in hundreds of people's cars for years 566 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: to study how distracted or careful drivers were. They all 567 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: knew they were under observation and got paid to be 568 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: in the study every year in case they needed a 569 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: reminder that they were being watched. Uh. They soon behaved 570 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: as though they were quite alone, covorting with ladies in 571 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: the night. In some cases, we're leaving themselves while driving, 572 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: juggling multiple phones and a cigarette. Some behavior may be 573 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: curb due to cameras, as they are correlated with a 574 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: decline and crime, but by and large they are ignored 575 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: and don't cause significant grief that There are obvious residents 576 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: of London and New York to cite two examples of 577 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: cities almost entirely under CCTV observation who feel that their 578 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 1: rights are being violated and who rail against the intrusion. 579 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 1: But uh, and I could be wrong here. There are 580 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: probably people who would be railing against other government intrusion 581 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: or civil rights violations where there are no cameras at all. Uh. 582 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: This is a complicated issue, and I'm not a state 583 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: security apologist, but the mere presence of cameras everywhere, or 584 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: the omnificence of government about all internet traffic doesn't really 585 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: bug me nearly as much as their ability to act 586 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: without a warrant. Keep up the great work. I look 587 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: forward as always to your next philosophical, psychological, biological, and 588 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: technological musics. All right, very good point. Here are we 589 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: equipped to even deal with this idea that we're constantly 590 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: being surveiled and perhaps under uh, this construct that we 591 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 1: are not we just fold into it as the people 592 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: who were being watched on these security cameras and their 593 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: camera became normalized to the whole situation. So I think 594 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: that's a good question. But I also wonder if it 595 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: is part and parcel of the idea that's ingrained in 596 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: all of us that when we get in the car, 597 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: no matter if there's a camera watching us, we are 598 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: in a private space. Hence all the news pickers on 599 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: the highway. Yes, yeah, it's always kind of better than 600 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: that is when you see somebody really dancing out to music, though, yeah, 601 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: I always like that. Well, you know, here's a here's 602 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,479 Speaker 1: a little bit of listener mail comes in in response 603 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: to our Cubicle Doom episode. Which has some crossover into 604 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: the Panopticon area. Um this one, Louis writes and says, Hey, guys, 605 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: I'm catching up on old episodes, and I thought I'd 606 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 1: tossed in my two cents about pink noise. Years ago, 607 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: I worked at a startup web company and we, unbeknowns 608 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 1: to the workers, had a pink noise generator in the building. 609 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: This all came to light in the summer when the 610 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: temperatures were really hot and the electric company was asking 611 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: larger office buildings to shut down non essential electrical devices. 612 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: The pink noisemakers were deemed to be such devices. I 613 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: worked in a cubicle farm, and the change was instant 614 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: and dramatic. While the pink noise was on, you couldn't 615 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: hear a phone conversation for more than about a cubicle away. 616 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: When the pink noise was off, you could clearly hear 617 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: the same conversation from five cubes over. UH. To this point, 618 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: everyone assumed that we were always hearing the air handling system, 619 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,479 Speaker 1: until our maintenance person pointed out that the tiny one 620 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: demeter one diameter speakers in the ceiling space about seventy 621 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: to ten feet apart. Thank you for all the great content. 622 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: Out of about thirty different podcast series I listened to 623 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: on a regular basis, you are my favorite. Thank you again, Louis. 624 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 1: Thanks Louis. So that's nice because that angle is a 625 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: benevolent panopticon that was looking out for them, piping in 626 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: some pink noise and in our new office space. I 627 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: really wish that we had the same scenario. It would 628 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: be kind of cool. Yeah, certainly an example here though, 629 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: where they didn't necessarily believe in God until God stopped 630 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: believing in them. If you think of God as a 631 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: pink noise machine. All right, um, here we have a 632 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: quick bit of a listener mail from Eric. Eric writes 633 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 1: in in response to a cute episode The Science of Cute, 634 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: because I wonder how many people react to too much 635 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: cute or attempts at cute that fail. In Harry Potter, 636 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: Dolores Umbridge has has described as a hard person to 637 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 1: display many cute kittens in her rooms. The pictures were 638 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: called horrid in the books not cute, and Umbridge herself 639 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: tries to sound and dress cute, but was grossly overweight 640 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: and looked like a toad in the book I wish 641 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: you had talked about what happens when people go for 642 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: cute and end up in the opposite direction. Well, I 643 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: think that's whole, that whole caricature thing, right, when someone 644 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: takes something to an extreme than it becomes the uncontny 645 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: valley or horrific. And I think about that when I 646 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: think about clowns, no offensive clowns out there, or even 647 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,839 Speaker 1: um dragon performance, because sometimes it is such a performance 648 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: of the female model that it looks um what is 649 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: the word that I'm going for, ghoulish, foolish? Yeah, maybe 650 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: part of it is just our ability to you know, 651 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,720 Speaker 1: to see those patterns and to realize something is not right. This, 652 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,919 Speaker 1: this individual or this thing the cute is trying way 653 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: too hard, and therefore it must cover up some sort 654 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: of malign uh instinct at the heart of it. That's 655 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: not really that's not really a cute cartoon character. There 656 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: must be some sort of horrible monster inside of It's 657 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: gonna eat me, you know. I was thinking about that 658 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 1: in the context of staring, because we talked about this 659 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: um inability to look away when we should. It is 660 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 1: just our mind trying to square what it's seeing, because 661 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 1: it's saying this is this is outside of what I 662 00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 1: normally see. I can't stop looking. I need more data exactly. Yeah. 663 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 1: It all comes back comes down to our processing of 664 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 1: the world around us and trying to realize what's a 665 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,359 Speaker 1: risk to us, what's not really a risk, and how 666 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: we should react. So can cute be awful? Yes? Oh yes, 667 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: all right, So there you have some interesting listener mail 668 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: to cap off what I think is a really interesting 669 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: uh insight into our our orderly and disorderly lives. Yeah, 670 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: and a comforting aspect of why a child is making 671 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: an incredible mess for you to clean up and peas 672 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 1: are splattering on your walls. Yeah. And the next time 673 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: you're walking around at work and you notice, like I do, 674 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,760 Speaker 1: that some people have cubes that look like they've barely 675 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: been moved into and other people look like they have 676 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: lived there for centuries. Understand that we need both types. 677 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: We need we need the creative energy of the chaos, 678 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: we need the we need the the the refining order 679 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,879 Speaker 1: of that neat space as well. All of it comes 680 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: together and it's it has survived evolution for a reason, right, 681 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: and we should flip between those spaces that we have 682 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: a nice balance perspective. There you go alrighty, all right? 683 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: You wanna check out our blog posts. You want to 684 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 1: check out all these podcast episodes that we're talking about, 685 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 1: including ones that you will not find on iTunes, You 686 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:10,399 Speaker 1: need to go to stuff blow your Mind dot com. 687 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: That's our mothership, that's our main homepage. You will find 688 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: again the blogs, the videos, the podcast uh, all sorts 689 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,319 Speaker 1: of new content, as well as links out to all 690 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: of our social media sites. You can find us on Facebook, Tumbler, Twitter, 691 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,879 Speaker 1: Google Plus. We're on YouTube is mind stuff show Uh. 692 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 1: There's a soundcount cloud account if you're into that. You 693 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 1: can find episodes there. Just have at it yep. And 694 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: if you strongly identify with muppet, let us know which 695 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: muppet that is, and you can do so below the 696 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: mind at discovery dot com. For more on this and 697 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Is that how Stuff Works dot 698 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: com