WEBVTT - Jacob Collier 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:15.956 Pushkin. 0:00:20.236 --> 0:00:23.196 Jacob Collier has built a remarkable career as a multi 0:00:23.196 --> 0:00:26.876 instrumentalist and arranger, known for his complex harmonic approach and 0:00:26.916 --> 0:00:31.036 collaborative spirit. He first gained attention as a teenager posting 0:00:31.116 --> 0:00:34.036 multi track videos from his childhood bedroom in North London. 0:00:34.556 --> 0:00:36.916 In twenty thirteen, his cover of Stevie wonders Don't You 0:00:36.956 --> 0:00:40.756 Worry About a Thing caught the eye of the Quincy Jones, 0:00:40.916 --> 0:00:44.476 who began mentoring him and helped launch his career. Over 0:00:44.516 --> 0:00:47.676 the past seven years, Jacob's released four albums in his 0:00:47.836 --> 0:00:52.556 Jesse series, ambitious, wide ranging projects featuring collaborations with artists 0:00:52.636 --> 0:00:56.876 ranging from Torre Amis to Coldplay. He's won multiple Grammy 0:00:56.916 --> 0:01:00.476 Awards and developed a following through his inventive live performances 0:01:00.516 --> 0:01:03.116 and his willingness to share his deep knowledge of music 0:01:03.156 --> 0:01:07.436 theory with fans online. Now, Jacob has made a dramatic 0:01:07.476 --> 0:01:10.676 shift with his new album, The Light for Days. Recorded 0:01:10.716 --> 0:01:13.836 in just four days using only a custom five string guitar, 0:01:14.236 --> 0:01:17.756 It's a stripped down, intimate collection that explores folk, classical 0:01:17.796 --> 0:01:22.796 and jazz influences with notable restraint. On today's episode, Bruce 0:01:22.836 --> 0:01:25.516 Headlam talks to Jacob Collier about why he decided to 0:01:25.556 --> 0:01:29.156 limit himself to a single instrument after years of layered, 0:01:29.356 --> 0:01:33.756 maximalist production. He discusses the custom five string guitar built 0:01:33.756 --> 0:01:36.796 for him by Taylor's master luthier Andy Powers, and how 0:01:36.836 --> 0:01:41.276 its unique tuning opened up new harmonic possibilities. He also 0:01:41.276 --> 0:01:43.876 talks about working with Johnny Mitchell, the influence of artists 0:01:43.916 --> 0:01:46.556 like John Martin and Brian Wilson, and how growing up 0:01:46.556 --> 0:01:50.076 singing Bach Carl's with his family shaped his approach to harmony. 0:01:50.476 --> 0:01:53.076 And he performed several songs from the new album live 0:01:53.116 --> 0:02:02.156 in the studio. This is Broken Record, real musicians, real conversations. 0:02:05.516 --> 0:02:07.276 Here's Bruce Headlam with Jacob Collier. 0:02:11.156 --> 0:02:11.756 Sounds that you do. 0:02:16.836 --> 0:02:17.196 Mm hm. 0:02:24.876 --> 0:02:57.036 H m hm hm cool. 0:02:58.276 --> 0:02:59.556 All right, you want to have a seat there and 0:02:59.596 --> 0:03:00.356 we'll chat. 0:03:00.476 --> 0:03:01.636 Yeah, so I'll start here right. 0:03:01.916 --> 0:03:03.676 Yeah you can. You can go back and forth as 0:03:03.716 --> 0:03:06.276 you wish. So, Jacob, welcome back to Broken Record. 0:03:06.436 --> 0:03:07.276 Thank you for having me. 0:03:07.436 --> 0:03:09.036 Well, thank you so much for coming in. And we 0:03:09.236 --> 0:03:12.516 are talking about your new album, The Light for Day. Yes, 0:03:13.676 --> 0:03:15.956 so tell me about making this this album. 0:03:16.116 --> 0:03:19.956 Yes, So, I've spent the majority of the last seven 0:03:20.036 --> 0:03:24.876 years making these four radically collaborative albums called Jesse. Jesse 0:03:24.956 --> 0:03:28.916 only won two, three, four, and these were very very 0:03:28.916 --> 0:03:33.956 broad creatively, very sort of extortionate, you could say, very 0:03:34.036 --> 0:03:39.396 very very very diverse, very multiple layered, sort of kaleidoscopic albums, 0:03:39.796 --> 0:03:42.556 and I knew that after finishing them, I want i'd 0:03:42.596 --> 0:03:45.356 want to try something different. I didn't have any firm ideas, 0:03:45.396 --> 0:03:47.276 but I knew in the back of my head, I 0:03:47.316 --> 0:03:50.356 had this thought that'd be fun to embrace the idea 0:03:50.396 --> 0:03:52.436 of making a record with just one instrument, to sort 0:03:52.436 --> 0:03:55.356 of limit the palette. And what I ended up with 0:03:55.356 --> 0:03:57.916 with this record was a four day window before my 0:03:57.916 --> 0:04:00.116 tour began in May. I was going to go to 0:04:00.116 --> 0:04:02.436 Asia to play some shows there, and I thought, what 0:04:02.436 --> 0:04:04.116 if I make the whole album in four days. So 0:04:04.276 --> 0:04:06.396 it was these two limitations. It was four day window 0:04:06.916 --> 0:04:10.476 and a five string guitar, and that's how this album 0:04:10.556 --> 0:04:10.916 came to be. 0:04:11.836 --> 0:04:15.516 And it is very sparse sounding for people who know 0:04:15.596 --> 0:04:19.876 your music, how many tracks would you use on a 0:04:19.916 --> 0:04:23.436 typical song on this album compared to some of the 0:04:23.476 --> 0:04:25.796 songs you did on Jesse, Well. 0:04:25.676 --> 0:04:31.756 Everything from two to fifty probably on this album. On Jesse, 0:04:31.876 --> 0:04:34.116 it's you know, there was easily in the hundreds for 0:04:34.156 --> 0:04:37.956 every song. You know, there'd be moments where I'd have 0:04:38.396 --> 0:04:41.076 you know, audience members from around the world involved, which 0:04:41.116 --> 0:04:44.996 is many, many hundreds of microphones on top of orchestras 0:04:45.036 --> 0:04:48.956 that I recorded, or choirs I recorded, and multiple instruments, 0:04:48.996 --> 0:04:52.796 multiple vocal parts. This album was It's just a different 0:04:52.836 --> 0:04:55.356 style of infinity. You know, I'm a firm believer that 0:04:55.396 --> 0:04:58.476 you can render infinity out of anything. You can render 0:04:58.476 --> 0:05:00.916 it out of infinity itself, but you can also render 0:05:00.956 --> 0:05:05.036 it out of much more finite terms. So yeah, with 0:05:05.076 --> 0:05:08.276 this album, I really I just I enjoyed both the 0:05:09.196 --> 0:05:12.716 limited scale of the palette but also the timeframe. I 0:05:12.716 --> 0:05:15.516 think it helped me make decisions because there's an unlimited 0:05:15.556 --> 0:05:17.956 amount of things possible at all times, something I've come 0:05:17.996 --> 0:05:19.796 to experience. So I think with this album it was 0:05:19.836 --> 0:05:23.716 fun to really enjoy kind of that tight window for 0:05:24.796 --> 0:05:27.716 making decisions. I also think it was fun to really 0:05:28.076 --> 0:05:30.556 kind of like extrapolate on all the tonalities possible with 0:05:30.556 --> 0:05:33.916 this five string guitar, because it's not just like a 0:05:33.956 --> 0:05:37.956 singing songwriter folk record. There's also voices and other laid 0:05:37.996 --> 0:05:41.836 guitars and sort of these colorful worlds, the colorful worlds, 0:05:42.436 --> 0:05:44.636 but I feel like there's something that this guitar gives 0:05:44.636 --> 0:05:47.556 as a spirit that just provides a sort of context 0:05:47.596 --> 0:05:50.796 for the storytelling in a way that was quite satisfying 0:05:50.796 --> 0:05:51.076 in the end. 0:05:52.436 --> 0:05:55.676 You've talked in the past about how you called the 0:05:55.716 --> 0:06:00.436 decoration the edge of songs, the multiple tracks, the vocal 0:06:00.996 --> 0:06:06.276 things you add, the the you know, altered chords. You 0:06:06.316 --> 0:06:08.956 think of those almost immediately when you're thinking of a 0:06:08.956 --> 0:06:12.436 so a song you're covering. In this case, you really 0:06:12.476 --> 0:06:16.396 restricted that in a way. A lot of these songs, 0:06:16.396 --> 0:06:20.076 and you do some beautiful covers Close your Eyes and 0:06:20.076 --> 0:06:24.676 and Beach Boys Song and Norwegian Wood. There's not that 0:06:24.796 --> 0:06:27.316 much re harmonization, which of course is one of your 0:06:28.196 --> 0:06:31.556 one of your signature moves. Did you go in thinking 0:06:31.596 --> 0:06:34.996 that way or did the guitar just lend itself to 0:06:35.076 --> 0:06:36.876 a maybe more straight ahead approach. 0:06:37.596 --> 0:06:40.756 I think I found myself wanting to just do justice 0:06:40.756 --> 0:06:43.156 to these songs in their own right. There are a 0:06:43.196 --> 0:06:45.676 couple of expensive moments, for sure, but I would say 0:06:45.916 --> 0:06:48.356 much fewer that I am used to. I think the 0:06:48.356 --> 0:06:51.996 thing with this record, more than anything harmonic that inspired 0:06:52.036 --> 0:06:54.956 me was it's like it's a world of a particular 0:06:54.996 --> 0:06:58.836 world of of that that the sound of the instrument, 0:06:59.276 --> 0:07:02.036 the way in which the guitar lends itself to I 0:07:02.076 --> 0:07:04.396 think it's just it's a different kind of decoration. Like 0:07:04.876 --> 0:07:06.356 one of the things with this album I really enjoyed 0:07:06.396 --> 0:07:08.916 to do was this this thing where you you know, 0:07:08.956 --> 0:07:12.276 you have essentially a live take of a song. So 0:07:11.676 --> 0:07:15.396 I stood and I performed like an entirety of a song, 0:07:15.636 --> 0:07:18.156 vocal and guitar texts. This is album. Normal people record albums. 0:07:18.196 --> 0:07:20.276 It's quite novel for me. I usually record all the 0:07:20.276 --> 0:07:23.956 elements separately and collide them later. But with that full take, 0:07:23.996 --> 0:07:25.836 I think there was an amount that that was the 0:07:25.916 --> 0:07:29.356 unification for the ideas and the decoration I think I 0:07:29.396 --> 0:07:34.276 had later was was sometimes it was sonically interesting, but 0:07:34.316 --> 0:07:36.236 I think it was less sort of like harmonically driven, 0:07:36.996 --> 0:07:39.116 and I think in a way that's always been in 0:07:39.156 --> 0:07:41.076 my work and always been in the music. But I 0:07:41.116 --> 0:07:44.796 think I've put more emphasis on some of the harmonic 0:07:45.676 --> 0:07:48.356 irresponsibilities you could say, of the past than I did 0:07:48.436 --> 0:07:49.436 on this particular album. 0:07:50.756 --> 0:07:55.076 You've talked a lot about the harmony and the sounds 0:07:55.076 --> 0:07:57.316 on this guitar. You should tell us about your guitar. 0:07:57.476 --> 0:08:01.396 Many people know you play a five string guitars, how 0:08:01.396 --> 0:08:03.276 it's tuned, how you see. 0:08:03.076 --> 0:08:06.196 It, So this is a fun story. I grew up 0:08:06.196 --> 0:08:08.116 playing a four string guitar when I was just a 0:08:08.116 --> 0:08:10.956 wee lad called a tenor guitar, and they're rife into 0:08:10.996 --> 0:08:13.676 the folk music, especially in England, and I never really 0:08:13.676 --> 0:08:15.316 got on too well with the six string guitar. Like 0:08:15.356 --> 0:08:17.956 as a kid, it wasn't something that appealed to me greatly. 0:08:17.996 --> 0:08:21.196 It wasn't something that threw itself into my imagination and 0:08:21.476 --> 0:08:23.636 provided things. I think one of the reasons was because 0:08:24.476 --> 0:08:27.156 you know, the foundations of the guitar are based in 0:08:27.276 --> 0:08:32.116 shapes that when you play them, they sound familiar, and 0:08:32.156 --> 0:08:33.956 I think as a child, I was always excited by 0:08:33.996 --> 0:08:36.596 things that sounded unfamiliar. And when I heard first of 0:08:36.716 --> 0:08:40.076 the ten of guitar, it felt both like something I knew, 0:08:40.076 --> 0:08:42.396 but it also felt new and strange and unfamiliar in 0:08:42.476 --> 0:08:44.436 a particular way. So that the ten of guitar, I 0:08:44.436 --> 0:08:46.956 can show you the ten of guitar as being a 0:08:46.956 --> 0:08:50.076 for scring guitar was tuned like this, which is the 0:08:50.076 --> 0:08:54.076 same as like a violin or I suppose it's a 0:08:54.076 --> 0:08:57.956 similar system to a cello, same as a mandolin, things 0:08:57.996 --> 0:09:01.516 like that. So fifth's fifth based tunings. What I tended 0:09:01.556 --> 0:09:04.916 to do as a child was to tune the top 0:09:04.956 --> 0:09:08.836 string down a tone to their So that was my 0:09:09.316 --> 0:09:10.596 that was that was the sound of the guitar for 0:09:10.676 --> 0:09:11.436 me for so many years. 0:09:12.516 --> 0:09:14.836 And I say, you've had a fifth to fifth, and 0:09:14.916 --> 0:09:15.796 then I had. 0:09:15.676 --> 0:09:17.916 A fifth, fifth, and a fourth and four and crucially 0:09:17.916 --> 0:09:23.956 I had this octave here. So I got used to 0:09:23.956 --> 0:09:25.796 that idea that you could you could find the sort 0:09:25.796 --> 0:09:28.556 of the parallative and use it. So it developed a 0:09:28.596 --> 0:09:30.756 bunch of shapes for this tuning, and the more I 0:09:30.796 --> 0:09:32.636 played it, the more I realized, oh, it'd be really 0:09:32.636 --> 0:09:35.356 cool to have a fifth string, because if I had 0:09:35.396 --> 0:09:37.756 a fifth string, it would actually make whole chain symmetrical 0:09:37.796 --> 0:09:41.396 because then you could have and at the very top, 0:09:41.436 --> 0:09:43.076 which means you have two oxytes. You have this one 0:09:43.836 --> 0:09:47.156 for the same note and then those are the same note. 0:09:47.436 --> 0:09:50.076 And the shapes that I'd figured out for the original 0:09:50.076 --> 0:09:52.076 four string would still work, you know, like the major 0:09:52.116 --> 0:09:54.436 shape and office of things, but you'd have the ability 0:09:54.516 --> 0:09:58.796 to access the shape from from one direction like that, 0:09:58.996 --> 0:10:03.236 and also from the bottom so every shape is is 0:10:03.276 --> 0:10:08.236 totally symmetrical. I don't know that makes sense, but you 0:10:08.276 --> 0:10:11.636 could really find yourself with with interesting kind of like that. 0:10:11.636 --> 0:10:13.956 There's an interesting openness to the to the to the 0:10:13.956 --> 0:10:15.956 fifths of the tuning. But the fourths of the tuning 0:10:16.116 --> 0:10:17.476 given now that it's two fifths. 0:10:18.356 --> 0:10:21.436 So just to be clear, it's now it's the strings 0:10:21.436 --> 0:10:25.116 are now the bass string is A, so. 0:10:25.116 --> 0:10:28.276 I not the tune down to D. So this is 0:10:28.356 --> 0:10:31.516 D A E A D. So it's like the e 0:10:31.716 --> 0:10:32.516 is like a mirror, a. 0:10:32.436 --> 0:10:35.556 Mirror, right, But the fourths on the top, the. 0:10:35.516 --> 0:10:37.156 Fourths are on the top, the fifth are on the bottom, 0:10:37.276 --> 0:10:38.076 so it's. 0:10:37.756 --> 0:10:40.196 On the bottoms. It's like a could be like a 0:10:40.236 --> 0:10:43.156 string bass yeah, yeah, for sure. And the fourth on 0:10:43.196 --> 0:10:45.516 the top mean you can still you can play Chuck 0:10:45.596 --> 0:10:49.236 Berry exactly absolutely and be are on bass player. 0:10:49.396 --> 0:10:51.716 Yeah yeah, absolutely. So, so there are sort of two 0:10:52.436 --> 0:10:59.316 two main vocabularies, one being a fifth thing, so you know, 0:10:59.356 --> 0:11:02.716 mandolin players, violent players, these shapes are familiar and it's 0:11:02.756 --> 0:11:05.756 easy to navigate in that way. The fourth stuff is 0:11:05.756 --> 0:11:08.876 more like it's what comes more from the sort of 0:11:08.876 --> 0:11:10.916 like LO and R and B world of the guitar. 0:11:13.196 --> 0:11:15.996 And just having you know these closer shapes makes a 0:11:15.996 --> 0:11:18.596 lot of sense. I think as a piano player, when 0:11:18.596 --> 0:11:20.236 I sit down at the piano and play, because that's 0:11:20.276 --> 0:11:22.876 really where I foundationally lived as a child, Mostly in 0:11:22.996 --> 0:11:25.476 terms of an instrument, my left hand would often play 0:11:25.516 --> 0:11:27.996 wider intervals than my right hand because the piano just 0:11:28.036 --> 0:11:29.636 sounds better like that. You know, if you play really 0:11:30.036 --> 0:11:33.556 clustery sounds in the left hand, it gets muddy, but 0:11:33.596 --> 0:11:35.236 the right hand you can be kind of as expensive 0:11:35.236 --> 0:11:36.876 as you want. Right So, I think the way the 0:11:36.916 --> 0:11:39.276 voicings were positioned, in the way that the shapes I 0:11:39.316 --> 0:11:42.076 loved worked, were that you'd have wider intervals at the 0:11:42.116 --> 0:11:44.916 bottom and smaller intervals at the top. So I think 0:11:44.916 --> 0:11:47.556 that my access point to guitar, which is less of 0:11:47.596 --> 0:11:49.396 thinking of myself as a guitar player and more of 0:11:49.396 --> 0:11:51.676 thinking myself as just someone who loves music and knows 0:11:51.716 --> 0:11:53.076 the things that I know and loves the things that 0:11:53.116 --> 0:11:55.276 I love. I think I was naturally drawn to this 0:11:55.356 --> 0:11:58.036 sense that you'd have a slightly narrower space at the 0:11:58.036 --> 0:12:01.476 top of a chord than at the bottom. It's kind 0:12:01.516 --> 0:12:03.876 of mirroring the harmonic series because the overturned series of 0:12:03.956 --> 0:12:07.236 nature that the bigger intervals are lower down, and for 0:12:07.236 --> 0:12:10.556 whatever reason, it really tickled my brain. And you know, 0:12:10.596 --> 0:12:14.556 I don't really play the guitar like guitar players necessarily do. 0:12:14.636 --> 0:12:17.756 I have a sort of quite strange and fairly unconventional technique. 0:12:17.756 --> 0:12:19.196 But one of the things I like to do is 0:12:19.236 --> 0:12:23.036 I like to sort of play with my left hand, 0:12:23.036 --> 0:12:24.596 that that's entirely my left of it. If I play 0:12:24.636 --> 0:12:29.356 one note with my right hand, that all of that 0:12:29.436 --> 0:12:32.796 vocabula comes from one comes from one hand. And I 0:12:32.836 --> 0:12:37.676 think that to me feels like something that it feels 0:12:37.676 --> 0:12:40.556 piano piano adjacent in the sense, in the sense of 0:12:40.596 --> 0:12:43.236 playing a key on the piano rather than plucking with 0:12:43.276 --> 0:12:46.916 one hand and playing with with another. And so I 0:12:46.956 --> 0:12:50.476 don't necessarily think when we call pull off, pull off, 0:12:50.556 --> 0:12:54.076 hammer ons, all that vocal, all that vocabul that I 0:12:54.116 --> 0:12:56.516 love that. And I never really got into guitar through 0:12:56.556 --> 0:12:59.436 the lens of like being a being someone who's picking liked, 0:12:59.556 --> 0:13:02.116 and I think that suff's amazing. But for me, I 0:13:02.636 --> 0:13:05.556 love playing melodies kind of essentially with both hands like 0:13:05.596 --> 0:13:07.396 I would on a piano. So I'm I'm sort of 0:13:07.436 --> 0:13:10.316 approaching the guitar a bit like a piano player. And 0:13:11.156 --> 0:13:13.756 I'm super grateful to Andy Powers, who's the actually the 0:13:13.756 --> 0:13:15.516 master builder for Tailor guitars, who is also a good 0:13:15.516 --> 0:13:17.516 friend of mine. He's the first person who I mentioned 0:13:17.556 --> 0:13:19.036 the idea too, who said, Hey, I think I can 0:13:19.676 --> 0:13:22.676 build you this guitar that's in your weird brain. Because 0:13:22.716 --> 0:13:24.676 for many years I've been playing in my imagination alone, 0:13:24.716 --> 0:13:26.956 I'd figured out the shapes for a guitar that didn't 0:13:26.996 --> 0:13:29.476 yet exist, but I knew that they would work if 0:13:29.516 --> 0:13:31.116 only I could play the guitar. And then Adie said 0:13:31.156 --> 0:13:32.116 I could build it for you. And this is the 0:13:32.156 --> 0:13:33.036 exact one that he built. 0:13:33.036 --> 0:13:35.516 This is the first one you will And you didn't 0:13:35.556 --> 0:13:38.716 try on a six string like open tunings for example. 0:13:38.836 --> 0:13:41.396 Oh, I totally did that. So my first kind of 0:13:42.356 --> 0:13:45.876 my first access point to to kind of playing the 0:13:45.916 --> 0:13:48.756 guitar at all before this guitar was created, besides the 0:13:48.796 --> 0:13:51.516 tenny guitar, was literally to rip a string off my 0:13:51.516 --> 0:13:53.556 six string guitar, I would I would remove the top 0:13:53.556 --> 0:13:56.436 string and then I tuned the top two strings of 0:13:56.876 --> 0:13:59.476 those five to the same note, and it would be 0:13:59.676 --> 0:14:03.836 like a teen guitar. And that was interesting and strange, 0:14:04.236 --> 0:14:07.596 but I think that I loved the residence of the 0:14:07.636 --> 0:14:09.556 guitar so much. I love the sort of brit the 0:14:09.596 --> 0:14:12.716 forcavery so much, and then eventually I sort of manifested 0:14:12.716 --> 0:14:13.716 this beast here. 0:14:15.436 --> 0:14:17.556 One of the songs you cover on this album is 0:14:17.956 --> 0:14:21.076 very fairy tale Lollaby by John Martin. John Martin people 0:14:21.156 --> 0:14:24.596 might be familiar with may not be, but to me, 0:14:24.716 --> 0:14:27.916 a lot of this album reminds me of that era 0:14:28.036 --> 0:14:34.476 of British folk. John Martin, Nick Drake, Richard Thompson, who's 0:14:34.996 --> 0:14:37.396 a huge favorite and he's been on the show. Were 0:14:37.396 --> 0:14:39.756 you conscious at all of those sounds when you were 0:14:39.756 --> 0:14:40.716 playing totally? 0:14:40.916 --> 0:14:44.476 I used to absolutely crush on that album London Conversation 0:14:44.556 --> 0:14:47.116 by John Martin, which is just him and the guitar 0:14:47.516 --> 0:14:50.396 and has a really interesting approach to it. He plays it, yeah, 0:14:50.396 --> 0:14:51.836 with a lot of these sort of hammerons and it's 0:14:51.876 --> 0:14:55.396 quite groovy and it's it's less kind of like strummy 0:14:55.436 --> 0:14:58.276 and more kind of a cult combination of fingerpicking and 0:14:58.716 --> 0:15:01.196 rhythm and time and little licks and things here and there. 0:15:01.636 --> 0:15:03.516 So that was that was a lot of my reference 0:15:03.556 --> 0:15:05.316 for the album, and Joni was not the huge inspiration 0:15:05.436 --> 0:15:09.756 for me, and just the way that she heard solutions 0:15:09.796 --> 0:15:12.756 through the open tuning systems and made it possible for 0:15:12.876 --> 0:15:14.756 all of us as musicians to hear the guitar in 0:15:14.836 --> 0:15:15.876 a sort of new light. 0:15:16.396 --> 0:15:18.676 But and then you played with her a year or 0:15:18.676 --> 0:15:19.716 two I did, I did. 0:15:19.796 --> 0:15:20.436 What was that like? 0:15:20.436 --> 0:15:24.356 To me? It was pretty extraordinary. You know, some people 0:15:24.396 --> 0:15:27.436 are such giants that you never even you almost don't 0:15:27.476 --> 0:15:30.196 consider that they're real people. And Jonie was someone who 0:15:30.276 --> 0:15:31.956 you know, I knew that she was having a hard 0:15:31.956 --> 0:15:34.116 time with her health a few years ago, and I 0:15:34.156 --> 0:15:36.476 sort of, I think, in my mind put her in 0:15:36.476 --> 0:15:40.596 this category of of just sort of like absolute Titanic 0:15:40.676 --> 0:15:44.356 legend who I will never even meet or encounter. And 0:15:44.396 --> 0:15:47.196 I was so overwhelmed to get to hang with her 0:15:47.196 --> 0:15:49.156 and play with her. She's she'd been hosting these joney 0:15:49.236 --> 0:15:51.476 jams is what she called them. People come around the 0:15:51.516 --> 0:15:54.716 house playing Jony tunes, other tunes and just just having fun. 0:15:54.716 --> 0:15:56.356 And so I became a part of that scene a 0:15:56.396 --> 0:15:58.716 few years ago back instead of twenty one twenty two. 0:15:59.196 --> 0:16:02.236 And then she invited me to accompany her at the 0:16:02.236 --> 0:16:05.116 Grammys I think it was last year, playing both sides now, 0:16:05.796 --> 0:16:08.156 which was a really a life highlight for me. And 0:16:08.196 --> 0:16:09.716 then I joined it at the Hollow Bowl for those 0:16:09.716 --> 0:16:11.956 two iconic nights there, which I think were the last 0:16:11.956 --> 0:16:13.836 two gigs that she played with her sort of all 0:16:13.836 --> 0:16:16.836 star band with Blake Mills and Robin Pecknold and and 0:16:16.876 --> 0:16:20.036 all sort of luminary people. Lucius were there, and god 0:16:20.116 --> 0:16:23.316 it was it was wonderful. So yeah, getting to absorb 0:16:23.356 --> 0:16:26.116 a bit of her attitude was really really interesting. And 0:16:26.436 --> 0:16:28.396 of course she's she's really punk, you know, and she's 0:16:28.436 --> 0:16:31.996 such a jazzer like she she she phrases like like 0:16:31.996 --> 0:16:34.316 like Wayne shorted us, you know, And it's it's no 0:16:34.396 --> 0:16:36.236 wonder that they were friends because the way that Wayne, 0:16:36.236 --> 0:16:39.156 she Wayne had had this sense of being so unlocked, 0:16:39.276 --> 0:16:42.516 you know, so totally anything is possible with the sort 0:16:42.516 --> 0:16:46.596 of inner logic of a child and a total connection 0:16:46.716 --> 0:16:51.076 between intuition and craft. And I think Jonie obviously came 0:16:51.156 --> 0:16:52.876 up in that in that same era. It's the same 0:16:52.876 --> 0:16:54.076 as you know, John Martin and the rest of them 0:16:54.076 --> 0:16:56.596 in the sort of late sixties as a as a 0:16:56.596 --> 0:16:59.316 folk sort of song stress. But I think her real 0:16:59.356 --> 0:17:01.196 calling was, I would say it was to be a 0:17:01.236 --> 0:17:04.516 jazz musician. And it was really really exciting to get 0:17:04.556 --> 0:17:07.996 to provoke her I would say musically and see her respond, 0:17:08.116 --> 0:17:10.116 you know, because every time she'd sing a song in 0:17:10.196 --> 0:17:12.876 rhearse flavor, it's come out totally different, which is very 0:17:12.916 --> 0:17:15.396 much like my wheelhouse. So it was fun to get 0:17:15.396 --> 0:17:19.156 to adapt my language around her creative decisions and watch 0:17:19.156 --> 0:17:22.036 her sparkle and yeah, just sort of get her to 0:17:22.396 --> 0:17:25.236 react in different ways through things I would say, and 0:17:25.276 --> 0:17:27.196 do you know it was it was a really really 0:17:27.196 --> 0:17:28.196 profound experience for me. 0:17:28.796 --> 0:17:31.556 We'll be back with more from Jacob Collier after the break. 0:17:35.916 --> 0:17:38.676 I heard a lot of Joni Mitchell early Joni Mitchell 0:17:39.276 --> 0:17:41.716 in I think a beautiful song on your album, I 0:17:41.756 --> 0:17:43.516 know a little oh, And I don't know if that 0:17:43.636 --> 0:17:46.916 was directly inspired or it just it has that flavor 0:17:46.956 --> 0:17:47.156 to me. 0:17:47.636 --> 0:17:50.356 Yeah, well, that's very kind of you to say. Unavoidably, 0:17:50.396 --> 0:17:54.756 I was inspired by Joni at every turn with this record. Yeah, 0:17:54.756 --> 0:17:57.076 that that's one of those songs that's very much built 0:17:57.076 --> 0:17:58.916 out of this figure. It's just a very simple figure 0:17:58.916 --> 0:18:01.596 that kind of goes round and round. And you've got 0:18:01.596 --> 0:18:04.636 card one and card four mostly. Can you imagine me 0:18:04.836 --> 0:18:06.596 Jacob Collier saying that I wrote a song with those 0:18:06.596 --> 0:18:10.036 two cools, But but Joni also had this way of 0:18:10.036 --> 0:18:12.396 writing songs with one or two chords. But then there'll 0:18:12.396 --> 0:18:15.516 be these these moments of color, these beautiful kind of 0:18:15.556 --> 0:18:18.036 explosions of sound. And in the bridge of that song, 0:18:18.716 --> 0:18:20.596 I throw a couple of other more chromatic moments in. 0:18:21.156 --> 0:18:22.956 And I think that I think Joining made that possible 0:18:22.996 --> 0:18:24.996 for all of us. I think she it was her 0:18:25.116 --> 0:18:29.036 kind of tenacity and taste that provided a sense that 0:18:29.196 --> 0:18:31.236 as a musician or as a songwriter, as a guitar player, 0:18:31.236 --> 0:18:33.276 you can you can totally go into that zone without 0:18:33.276 --> 0:18:36.316 losing the grounding of your song and without it becoming 0:18:36.356 --> 0:18:37.076 too cerebral. 0:18:37.796 --> 0:18:39.716 Can you show me the transition? 0:18:40.196 --> 0:18:46.276 Yes, I absolutely can, so if I tune so two 0:18:46.316 --> 0:18:56.916 tunings for this guitar, one being this, the other being 0:18:56.916 --> 0:18:59.436 this where you put a fifth at the top and 0:18:59.436 --> 0:19:01.596 stead of a fourth, which kind of puts you in 0:19:01.596 --> 0:19:05.556 this key, so that so this song goes at this. 0:19:10.836 --> 0:19:19.956 Mm hmm. I remember ber the field, I remember by 0:19:20.036 --> 0:19:30.556 the taste of you, A little shadows car of the sea. 0:19:32.036 --> 0:19:42.276 Suddenly I believe bela a little I rememberer the world, 0:19:44.956 --> 0:19:55.636 watching all of my walls, card a little more, leading 0:19:55.756 --> 0:20:01.756 it all for letting it gold all. 0:20:05.516 --> 0:20:20.596 I know, So that figure for the verse is really simple, right, 0:20:21.356 --> 0:20:23.276 and then took chord four and back to card one. 0:20:23.316 --> 0:20:25.116 So that's that's all one and good. And then this 0:20:25.116 --> 0:20:26.916 this kind of bridge moment. 0:20:28.836 --> 0:20:36.956 There's no just. 0:20:36.916 --> 0:20:40.316 A moment of color, moment of chromaticism, which just kind 0:20:40.316 --> 0:20:42.756 of takes you out of the reverie for a for 0:20:42.796 --> 0:20:45.036 a second, but in a sort of non disruptive way. 0:20:45.516 --> 0:20:46.836 So it just it just kind of wakes up your 0:20:46.836 --> 0:20:49.356 ear and and reminds you of the other possibilities that 0:20:49.596 --> 0:20:52.836 are close at hand around the key. But but I 0:20:52.836 --> 0:20:55.596 think that the the melody of the song. Another lesson 0:20:55.596 --> 0:20:57.236 I think I learn from jony and others is that 0:20:57.276 --> 0:20:59.756 the melody of the song grounds you in the key. 0:20:59.796 --> 0:21:03.076 That the melody doesn't doesn't doesn't kind of pander to 0:21:03.116 --> 0:21:05.116 the chromaticism. The melody just stays right where it is. 0:21:05.156 --> 0:21:13.556 It goes. So the melody is at home and there 0:21:13.636 --> 0:21:15.476 is no keep it. But the chords beneath are giving 0:21:15.516 --> 0:21:19.036 you that context that the spicyinist that sort of provides 0:21:19.076 --> 0:21:20.876 that stuff. So you know, I think of I think 0:21:20.876 --> 0:21:23.956 of jony and and all those moments where she would 0:21:24.076 --> 0:21:26.636 just throw something in that was just slightly odd or 0:21:26.636 --> 0:21:29.796 something unconventional and provide that sense of spark. 0:21:29.996 --> 0:21:33.796 You know. Now, one difference between you and Joni Mitchell 0:21:34.276 --> 0:21:36.516 is that she didn't often know what notes she was playing. 0:21:36.596 --> 0:21:42.156 She would devise these tunings and just play them. You, 0:21:42.276 --> 0:21:45.916 of course, are maybe the world's most famous music theory nerd. 0:21:46.596 --> 0:21:48.916 Maybe so when you are playing, do you know every 0:21:48.956 --> 0:21:52.076 note you're playing or so? Or do you ever have 0:21:52.436 --> 0:21:57.236 because so much of guitar playing. For example, you you 0:21:57.236 --> 0:22:00.076 you cover a James Taylor song. James Taylor has a 0:22:00.076 --> 0:22:00.836