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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Jacob Collier has built a remarkable career as a multi

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Speaker 2: instrumentalist and arranger, known for his complex harmonic approach and

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Speaker 2: collaborative spirit. He first gained attention as a teenager posting

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Speaker 2: multi track videos from his childhood bedroom in North London.

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Speaker 2: In twenty thirteen, his cover of Stevie wonders Don't You

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Speaker 2: Worry About a Thing caught the eye of the Quincy Jones,

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Speaker 2: who began mentoring him and helped launch his career. Over

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Speaker 2: the past seven years, Jacob's released four albums in his

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Speaker 2: Jesse series, ambitious, wide ranging projects featuring collaborations with artists

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Speaker 2: ranging from Torre Amis to Coldplay. He's won multiple Grammy

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Speaker 2: Awards and developed a following through his inventive live performances

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Speaker 2: and his willingness to share his deep knowledge of music

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Speaker 2: theory with fans online. Now, Jacob has made a dramatic

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Speaker 2: shift with his new album, The Light for Days. Recorded

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Speaker 2: in just four days using only a custom five string guitar,

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Speaker 2: It's a stripped down, intimate collection that explores folk, classical

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Speaker 2: and jazz influences with notable restraint. On today's episode, Bruce

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Speaker 2: Headlam talks to Jacob Collier about why he decided to

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Speaker 2: limit himself to a single instrument after years of layered,

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Speaker 2: maximalist production. He discusses the custom five string guitar built

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Speaker 2: for him by Taylor's master luthier Andy Powers, and how

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Speaker 2: its unique tuning opened up new harmonic possibilities. He also

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Speaker 2: talks about working with Johnny Mitchell, the influence of artists

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Speaker 2: like John Martin and Brian Wilson, and how growing up

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Speaker 2: singing Bach Carl's with his family shaped his approach to harmony.

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Speaker 2: And he performed several songs from the new album live

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Speaker 2: in the studio. This is Broken Record, real musicians, real conversations.

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Speaker 2: Here's Bruce Headlam with Jacob Collier.

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Speaker 3: Sounds that you do.

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Speaker 4: Mm hm.

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Speaker 1: H m hm hm cool.

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Speaker 5: All right, you want to have a seat there and

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Speaker 5: we'll chat.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'll start here right.

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Speaker 5: Yeah you can. You can go back and forth as

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Speaker 5: you wish. So, Jacob, welcome back to Broken Record.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 5: Well, thank you so much for coming in. And we

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Speaker 5: are talking about your new album, The Light for Day. Yes,

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Speaker 5: so tell me about making this this album.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So, I've spent the majority of the last seven

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Speaker 3: years making these four radically collaborative albums called Jesse. Jesse

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Speaker 3: only won two, three, four, and these were very very

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Speaker 3: broad creatively, very sort of extortionate, you could say, very

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Speaker 3: very very very diverse, very multiple layered, sort of kaleidoscopic albums,

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Speaker 3: and I knew that after finishing them, I want i'd

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Speaker 3: want to try something different. I didn't have any firm ideas,

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Speaker 3: but I knew in the back of my head, I

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Speaker 3: had this thought that'd be fun to embrace the idea

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Speaker 3: of making a record with just one instrument, to sort

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Speaker 3: of limit the palette. And what I ended up with

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Speaker 3: with this record was a four day window before my

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Speaker 3: tour began in May. I was going to go to

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Speaker 3: Asia to play some shows there, and I thought, what

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Speaker 3: if I make the whole album in four days. So

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Speaker 3: it was these two limitations. It was four day window

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Speaker 3: and a five string guitar, and that's how this album

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Speaker 3: came to be.

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Speaker 5: And it is very sparse sounding for people who know

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Speaker 5: your music, how many tracks would you use on a

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Speaker 5: typical song on this album compared to some of the

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Speaker 5: songs you did on Jesse, Well.

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Speaker 3: Everything from two to fifty probably on this album. On Jesse,

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Speaker 3: it's you know, there was easily in the hundreds for

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Speaker 3: every song. You know, there'd be moments where I'd have

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Speaker 3: you know, audience members from around the world involved, which

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Speaker 3: is many, many hundreds of microphones on top of orchestras

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Speaker 3: that I recorded, or choirs I recorded, and multiple instruments,

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Speaker 3: multiple vocal parts. This album was It's just a different

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Speaker 3: style of infinity. You know, I'm a firm believer that

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Speaker 3: you can render infinity out of anything. You can render

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Speaker 3: it out of infinity itself, but you can also render

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Speaker 3: it out of much more finite terms. So yeah, with

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Speaker 3: this album, I really I just I enjoyed both the

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Speaker 3: limited scale of the palette but also the timeframe. I

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Speaker 3: think it helped me make decisions because there's an unlimited

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Speaker 3: amount of things possible at all times, something I've come

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Speaker 3: to experience. So I think with this album it was

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Speaker 3: fun to really enjoy kind of that tight window for

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Speaker 3: making decisions. I also think it was fun to really

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Speaker 3: kind of like extrapolate on all the tonalities possible with

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Speaker 3: this five string guitar, because it's not just like a

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Speaker 3: singing songwriter folk record. There's also voices and other laid

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Speaker 3: guitars and sort of these colorful worlds, the colorful worlds,

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Speaker 3: but I feel like there's something that this guitar gives

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Speaker 3: as a spirit that just provides a sort of context

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Speaker 3: for the storytelling in a way that was quite satisfying

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Speaker 3: in the end.

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Speaker 5: You've talked in the past about how you called the

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Speaker 5: decoration the edge of songs, the multiple tracks, the vocal

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Speaker 5: things you add, the the you know, altered chords. You

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Speaker 5: think of those almost immediately when you're thinking of a

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Speaker 5: so a song you're covering. In this case, you really

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Speaker 5: restricted that in a way. A lot of these songs,

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Speaker 5: and you do some beautiful covers Close your Eyes and

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Speaker 5: and Beach Boys Song and Norwegian Wood. There's not that

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Speaker 5: much re harmonization, which of course is one of your

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Speaker 5: one of your signature moves. Did you go in thinking

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Speaker 5: that way or did the guitar just lend itself to

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Speaker 5: a maybe more straight ahead approach.

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Speaker 3: I think I found myself wanting to just do justice

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Speaker 3: to these songs in their own right. There are a

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Speaker 3: couple of expensive moments, for sure, but I would say

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Speaker 3: much fewer that I am used to. I think the

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Speaker 3: thing with this record, more than anything harmonic that inspired

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Speaker 3: me was it's like it's a world of a particular

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Speaker 3: world of of that that the sound of the instrument,

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Speaker 3: the way in which the guitar lends itself to I

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Speaker 3: think it's just it's a different kind of decoration. Like

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Speaker 3: one of the things with this album I really enjoyed

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Speaker 3: to do was this this thing where you you know,

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Speaker 3: you have essentially a live take of a song. So

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Speaker 3: I stood and I performed like an entirety of a song,

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Speaker 3: vocal and guitar texts. This is album. Normal people record albums.

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Speaker 3: It's quite novel for me. I usually record all the

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Speaker 3: elements separately and collide them later. But with that full take,

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Speaker 3: I think there was an amount that that was the

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Speaker 3: unification for the ideas and the decoration I think I

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Speaker 3: had later was was sometimes it was sonically interesting, but

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Speaker 3: I think it was less sort of like harmonically driven,

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Speaker 3: and I think in a way that's always been in

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Speaker 3: my work and always been in the music. But I

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Speaker 3: think I've put more emphasis on some of the harmonic

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Speaker 3: irresponsibilities you could say, of the past than I did

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Speaker 3: on this particular album.

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Speaker 5: You've talked a lot about the harmony and the sounds

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Speaker 5: on this guitar. You should tell us about your guitar.

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Speaker 5: Many people know you play a five string guitars, how

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Speaker 5: it's tuned, how you see.

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Speaker 3: It, So this is a fun story. I grew up

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Speaker 3: playing a four string guitar when I was just a

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Speaker 3: wee lad called a tenor guitar, and they're rife into

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Speaker 3: the folk music, especially in England, and I never really

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Speaker 3: got on too well with the six string guitar. Like

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Speaker 3: as a kid, it wasn't something that appealed to me greatly.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't something that threw itself into my imagination and

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Speaker 3: provided things. I think one of the reasons was because

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Speaker 3: you know, the foundations of the guitar are based in

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Speaker 3: shapes that when you play them, they sound familiar, and

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Speaker 3: I think as a child, I was always excited by

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Speaker 3: things that sounded unfamiliar. And when I heard first of

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Speaker 3: the ten of guitar, it felt both like something I knew,

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Speaker 3: but it also felt new and strange and unfamiliar in

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Speaker 3: a particular way. So that the ten of guitar, I

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Speaker 3: can show you the ten of guitar as being a

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Speaker 3: for scring guitar was tuned like this, which is the

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Speaker 3: same as like a violin or I suppose it's a

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Speaker 3: similar system to a cello, same as a mandolin, things

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Speaker 3: like that. So fifth's fifth based tunings. What I tended

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Speaker 3: to do as a child was to tune the top

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Speaker 3: string down a tone to their So that was my

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Speaker 3: that was that was the sound of the guitar for

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Speaker 3: me for so many years.

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Speaker 5: And I say, you've had a fifth to fifth, and

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Speaker 5: then I had.

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Speaker 3: A fifth, fifth, and a fourth and four and crucially

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Speaker 3: I had this octave here. So I got used to

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Speaker 3: that idea that you could you could find the sort

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Speaker 3: of the parallative and use it. So it developed a

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Speaker 3: bunch of shapes for this tuning, and the more I

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Speaker 3: played it, the more I realized, oh, it'd be really

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Speaker 3: cool to have a fifth string, because if I had

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Speaker 3: a fifth string, it would actually make whole chain symmetrical

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Speaker 3: because then you could have and at the very top,

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Speaker 3: which means you have two oxytes. You have this one

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Speaker 3: for the same note and then those are the same note.

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Speaker 3: And the shapes that I'd figured out for the original

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Speaker 3: four string would still work, you know, like the major

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Speaker 3: shape and office of things, but you'd have the ability

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Speaker 3: to access the shape from from one direction like that,

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Speaker 3: and also from the bottom so every shape is is

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Speaker 3: totally symmetrical. I don't know that makes sense, but you

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Speaker 3: could really find yourself with with interesting kind of like that.

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Speaker 3: There's an interesting openness to the to the to the

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Speaker 3: fifths of the tuning. But the fourths of the tuning

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Speaker 3: given now that it's two fifths.

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Speaker 5: So just to be clear, it's now it's the strings

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Speaker 5: are now the bass string is A, so.

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Speaker 3: I not the tune down to D. So this is

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Speaker 3: D A E A D. So it's like the e

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Speaker 3: is like a mirror, a.

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Speaker 5: Mirror, right, But the fourths on the top, the.

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Speaker 3: Fourths are on the top, the fifth are on the bottom,

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Speaker 3: so it's.

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Speaker 5: On the bottoms. It's like a could be like a

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Speaker 5: string bass yeah, yeah, for sure. And the fourth on

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Speaker 5: the top mean you can still you can play Chuck

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Speaker 5: Berry exactly absolutely and be are on bass player.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, absolutely. So, so there are sort of two

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Speaker 3: two main vocabularies, one being a fifth thing, so you know,

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Speaker 3: mandolin players, violent players, these shapes are familiar and it's

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Speaker 3: easy to navigate in that way. The fourth stuff is

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Speaker 3: more like it's what comes more from the sort of

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Speaker 3: like LO and R and B world of the guitar.

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Speaker 3: And just having you know these closer shapes makes a

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Speaker 3: lot of sense. I think as a piano player, when

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Speaker 3: I sit down at the piano and play, because that's

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Speaker 3: really where I foundationally lived as a child, Mostly in

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Speaker 3: terms of an instrument, my left hand would often play

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Speaker 3: wider intervals than my right hand because the piano just

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Speaker 3: sounds better like that. You know, if you play really

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Speaker 3: clustery sounds in the left hand, it gets muddy, but

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Speaker 3: the right hand you can be kind of as expensive

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Speaker 3: as you want. Right So, I think the way the

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Speaker 3: voicings were positioned, in the way that the shapes I

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Speaker 3: loved worked, were that you'd have wider intervals at the

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Speaker 3: bottom and smaller intervals at the top. So I think

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Speaker 3: that my access point to guitar, which is less of

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Speaker 3: thinking of myself as a guitar player and more of

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Speaker 3: thinking myself as just someone who loves music and knows

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Speaker 3: the things that I know and loves the things that

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Speaker 3: I love. I think I was naturally drawn to this

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Speaker 3: sense that you'd have a slightly narrower space at the

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Speaker 3: top of a chord than at the bottom. It's kind

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Speaker 3: of mirroring the harmonic series because the overturned series of

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Speaker 3: nature that the bigger intervals are lower down, and for

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Speaker 3: whatever reason, it really tickled my brain. And you know,

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Speaker 3: I don't really play the guitar like guitar players necessarily do.

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Speaker 3: I have a sort of quite strange and fairly unconventional technique.

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Speaker 3: But one of the things I like to do is

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Speaker 3: I like to sort of play with my left hand,

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Speaker 3: that that's entirely my left of it. If I play

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Speaker 3: one note with my right hand, that all of that

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Speaker 3: vocabula comes from one comes from one hand. And I

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Speaker 3: think that to me feels like something that it feels

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Speaker 3: piano piano adjacent in the sense, in the sense of

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Speaker 3: playing a key on the piano rather than plucking with

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Speaker 3: one hand and playing with with another. And so I

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Speaker 3: don't necessarily think when we call pull off, pull off,

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Speaker 3: hammer ons, all that vocal, all that vocabul that I

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Speaker 3: love that. And I never really got into guitar through

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Speaker 3: the lens of like being a being someone who's picking liked,

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Speaker 3: and I think that suff's amazing. But for me, I

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Speaker 3: love playing melodies kind of essentially with both hands like

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Speaker 3: I would on a piano. So I'm I'm sort of

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Speaker 3: approaching the guitar a bit like a piano player. And

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Speaker 3: I'm super grateful to Andy Powers, who's the actually the

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Speaker 3: master builder for Tailor guitars, who is also a good

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Speaker 3: friend of mine. He's the first person who I mentioned

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Speaker 3: the idea too, who said, Hey, I think I can

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Speaker 3: build you this guitar that's in your weird brain. Because

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Speaker 3: for many years I've been playing in my imagination alone,

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Speaker 3: I'd figured out the shapes for a guitar that didn't

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Speaker 3: yet exist, but I knew that they would work if

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Speaker 3: only I could play the guitar. And then Adie said

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Speaker 3: I could build it for you. And this is the

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Speaker 3: exact one that he built.

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Speaker 5: This is the first one you will And you didn't

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Speaker 5: try on a six string like open tunings for example.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I totally did that. So my first kind of

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Speaker 3: my first access point to to kind of playing the

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Speaker 3: guitar at all before this guitar was created, besides the

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Speaker 3: tenny guitar, was literally to rip a string off my

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Speaker 3: six string guitar, I would I would remove the top

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Speaker 3: string and then I tuned the top two strings of

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Speaker 3: those five to the same note, and it would be

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Speaker 3: like a teen guitar. And that was interesting and strange,

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Speaker 3: but I think that I loved the residence of the

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Speaker 3: guitar so much. I love the sort of brit the

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Speaker 3: forcavery so much, and then eventually I sort of manifested

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Speaker 3: this beast here.

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Speaker 5: One of the songs you cover on this album is

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Speaker 5: very fairy tale Lollaby by John Martin. John Martin people

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Speaker 5: might be familiar with may not be, but to me,

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Speaker 5: a lot of this album reminds me of that era

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Speaker 5: of British folk. John Martin, Nick Drake, Richard Thompson, who's

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Speaker 5: a huge favorite and he's been on the show. Were

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Speaker 5: you conscious at all of those sounds when you were

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Speaker 5: playing totally?

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Speaker 3: I used to absolutely crush on that album London Conversation

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Speaker 3: by John Martin, which is just him and the guitar

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Speaker 3: and has a really interesting approach to it. He plays it, yeah,

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Speaker 3: with a lot of these sort of hammerons and it's

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Speaker 3: quite groovy and it's it's less kind of like strummy

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Speaker 3: and more kind of a cult combination of fingerpicking and

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Speaker 3: rhythm and time and little licks and things here and there.

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Speaker 3: So that was that was a lot of my reference

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Speaker 3: for the album, and Joni was not the huge inspiration

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Speaker 3: for me, and just the way that she heard solutions

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Speaker 3: through the open tuning systems and made it possible for

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Speaker 3: all of us as musicians to hear the guitar in

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Speaker 3: a sort of new light.

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Speaker 5: But and then you played with her a year or

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Speaker 5: two I did, I did.

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Speaker 4: What was that like?

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Speaker 3: To me? It was pretty extraordinary. You know, some people

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Speaker 3: are such giants that you never even you almost don't

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Speaker 3: consider that they're real people. And Jonie was someone who

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Speaker 3: you know, I knew that she was having a hard

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Speaker 3: time with her health a few years ago, and I

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Speaker 3: sort of, I think, in my mind put her in

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Speaker 3: this category of of just sort of like absolute Titanic

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Speaker 3: legend who I will never even meet or encounter. And

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Speaker 3: I was so overwhelmed to get to hang with her

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Speaker 3: and play with her. She's she'd been hosting these joney

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Speaker 3: jams is what she called them. People come around the

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Speaker 3: house playing Jony tunes, other tunes and just just having fun.

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Speaker 3: And so I became a part of that scene a

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Speaker 3: few years ago back instead of twenty one twenty two.

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Speaker 3: And then she invited me to accompany her at the

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Speaker 3: Grammys I think it was last year, playing both sides now,

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Speaker 3: which was a really a life highlight for me. And

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Speaker 3: then I joined it at the Hollow Bowl for those

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Speaker 3: two iconic nights there, which I think were the last

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Speaker 3: two gigs that she played with her sort of all

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Speaker 3: star band with Blake Mills and Robin Pecknold and and

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Speaker 3: all sort of luminary people. Lucius were there, and god

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Speaker 3: it was it was wonderful. So yeah, getting to absorb

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Speaker 3: a bit of her attitude was really really interesting. And

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Speaker 3: of course she's she's really punk, you know, and she's

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Speaker 3: such a jazzer like she she she phrases like like

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Speaker 3: like Wayne shorted us, you know, And it's it's no

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Speaker 3: wonder that they were friends because the way that Wayne,

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Speaker 3: she Wayne had had this sense of being so unlocked,

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Speaker 3: you know, so totally anything is possible with the sort

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Speaker 3: of inner logic of a child and a total connection

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Speaker 3: between intuition and craft. And I think Jonie obviously came

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Speaker 3: up in that in that same era. It's the same

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Speaker 3: as you know, John Martin and the rest of them

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Speaker 3: in the sort of late sixties as a as a

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Speaker 3: folk sort of song stress. But I think her real

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Speaker 3: calling was, I would say it was to be a

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Speaker 3: jazz musician. And it was really really exciting to get

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Speaker 3: to provoke her I would say musically and see her respond,

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Speaker 3: you know, because every time she'd sing a song in

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Speaker 3: rhearse flavor, it's come out totally different, which is very

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Speaker 3: much like my wheelhouse. So it was fun to get

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Speaker 3: to adapt my language around her creative decisions and watch

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Speaker 3: her sparkle and yeah, just sort of get her to

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Speaker 3: react in different ways through things I would say, and

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Speaker 3: do you know it was it was a really really

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Speaker 3: profound experience for me.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back with more from Jacob Collier after the break.

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Speaker 5: I heard a lot of Joni Mitchell early Joni Mitchell

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Speaker 5: in I think a beautiful song on your album, I

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Speaker 5: know a little oh, And I don't know if that

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Speaker 5: was directly inspired or it just it has that flavor

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Speaker 5: to me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, that's very kind of you to say. Unavoidably,

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Speaker 3: I was inspired by Joni at every turn with this record. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that that's one of those songs that's very much built

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Speaker 3: out of this figure. It's just a very simple figure

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Speaker 3: that kind of goes round and round. And you've got

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Speaker 3: card one and card four mostly. Can you imagine me

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Speaker 3: Jacob Collier saying that I wrote a song with those

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Speaker 3: two cools, But but Joni also had this way of

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Speaker 3: writing songs with one or two chords. But then there'll

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Speaker 3: be these these moments of color, these beautiful kind of

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Speaker 3: explosions of sound. And in the bridge of that song,

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Speaker 3: I throw a couple of other more chromatic moments in.

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Speaker 3: And I think that I think Joining made that possible

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Speaker 3: for all of us. I think she it was her

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Speaker 3: kind of tenacity and taste that provided a sense that

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Speaker 3: as a musician or as a songwriter, as a guitar player,

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Speaker 3: you can you can totally go into that zone without

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Speaker 3: losing the grounding of your song and without it becoming

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Speaker 3: too cerebral.

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Speaker 5: Can you show me the transition?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I absolutely can, so if I tune so two

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Speaker 3: tunings for this guitar, one being this, the other being

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Speaker 3: this where you put a fifth at the top and

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Speaker 3: stead of a fourth, which kind of puts you in

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Speaker 3: this key, so that so this song goes at this.

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Speaker 6: Mm hmm. I remember ber the field, I remember by

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Speaker 6: the taste of you, A little shadows car of the sea.

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Speaker 6: Suddenly I believe bela a little I rememberer the world,

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Speaker 6: watching all of my walls, card a little more, leading

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Speaker 6: it all for letting it gold all.

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Speaker 3: I know, So that figure for the verse is really simple, right,

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Speaker 3: and then took chord four and back to card one.

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Speaker 3: So that's that's all one and good. And then this

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Speaker 3: this kind of bridge moment.

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Speaker 6: There's no just.

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Speaker 3: A moment of color, moment of chromaticism, which just kind

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Speaker 3: of takes you out of the reverie for a for

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Speaker 3: a second, but in a sort of non disruptive way.

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Speaker 3: So it just it just kind of wakes up your

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Speaker 3: ear and and reminds you of the other possibilities that

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Speaker 3: are close at hand around the key. But but I

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Speaker 3: think that the the melody of the song. Another lesson

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Speaker 3: I think I learn from jony and others is that

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Speaker 3: the melody of the song grounds you in the key.

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Speaker 3: That the melody doesn't doesn't doesn't kind of pander to

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Speaker 3: the chromaticism. The melody just stays right where it is.

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Speaker 3: It goes. So the melody is at home and there

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Speaker 3: is no keep it. But the chords beneath are giving

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Speaker 3: you that context that the spicyinist that sort of provides

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Speaker 3: that stuff. So you know, I think of I think

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Speaker 3: of jony and and all those moments where she would

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Speaker 3: just throw something in that was just slightly odd or

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Speaker 3: something unconventional and provide that sense of spark.

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Speaker 5: You know. Now, one difference between you and Joni Mitchell

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Speaker 5: is that she didn't often know what notes she was playing.

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Speaker 5: She would devise these tunings and just play them. You,

396
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Speaker 5: of course, are maybe the world's most famous music theory nerd.

397
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Speaker 5: Maybe so when you are playing, do you know every

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Speaker 5: note you're playing or so? Or do you ever have

399
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Speaker 5: because so much of guitar playing. For example, you you

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Speaker 5: you cover a James Taylor song. James Taylor has a

401
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Speaker 5: couple of moves.

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Speaker 6: You know.

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Speaker 5: This is the suspended two up to the three. It's

404
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Speaker 5: almost all. It's a song that almost comes out of

405
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Speaker 5: physically playing the guitar.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you wouldn't even have to know the theory just

408
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Speaker 5: to know that. Are you always conscious of the theory

409
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Speaker 5: when you're playing? Or sometimes does your hand just go

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Speaker 5: somewhere and then maybe you figure it out later?

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Speaker 3: Oh totally. I think that those are some of the

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Speaker 3: most interesting moments when your hand finds the solution. I

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Speaker 3: would say, despite my kind of love of musical theory,

414
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Speaker 3: musical the kind of science behind what makes it work,

415
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Speaker 3: I never create in a theoretical way I'm never sitting

416
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Speaker 3: there thinking right, well, seeing I'm in the GB flat,

417
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Speaker 3: I think that the note G sharp would be appropriate

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Speaker 3: because of the relationship. I'm never thinking like that. What

419
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Speaker 3: I know, I think, maybe similar to other guitar players,

420
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Speaker 3: is I know I know the shapes I like, but

421
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Speaker 3: my shapes come from off and come from instruments that

422
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Speaker 3: aren't the guitar. So I think that you know, a

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Speaker 3: move like this is something I know about emotionally, like

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Speaker 3: I understand the effect that chromaticism is going to have

425
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Speaker 3: on the harmony, but I'm not thinking of it. I

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Speaker 3: could if I wanted to define it as right, or

427
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Speaker 3: that's a sharp five move going to the thing, or

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Speaker 3: it's modulation to this, but it doesn't help me as

429
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Speaker 3: a songwriter to do so. Most of the time, I

430
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Speaker 3: think having the command over that language helps when you're

431
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Speaker 3: communicating to other musicians what you want. So if I'm

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Speaker 3: arranging for orchestra, for example, or I'm writing something for

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Speaker 3: my band to play or a group of singers to sing,

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Speaker 3: and I'm able to write out the notes that I'm

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Speaker 3: hearing and kind of define to them why certain notes

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Speaker 3: in certain chords kind of make you feel a particular

437
00:23:34,956 --> 00:23:37,276
Speaker 3: thing that's helpful for me as a band leader and

438
00:23:37,276 --> 00:23:40,076
Speaker 3: as a ranger and as a producer. But I think

439
00:23:40,076 --> 00:23:43,636
Speaker 3: as a songwriter, I don't speak. I'm not speaking in

440
00:23:43,676 --> 00:23:45,636
Speaker 3: my own mind using that language unless I need to

441
00:23:45,636 --> 00:23:48,556
Speaker 3: for any particular reason, in the same way that when

442
00:23:48,556 --> 00:23:51,236
Speaker 3: I'm speaking right now, I'm not thinking, Oh, there goes

443
00:23:51,236 --> 00:23:53,676
Speaker 3: the verb, and oh that's the adjective, and let's make

444
00:23:53,716 --> 00:23:55,036
Speaker 3: sure the noun is at the end of the you know.

445
00:23:55,396 --> 00:23:59,796
Speaker 3: But I've absorbed these kind of rules from having spoken

446
00:23:59,836 --> 00:24:01,636
Speaker 3: a lot as a child and be surrounded by masters

447
00:24:01,636 --> 00:24:03,116
Speaker 3: of speech as a child, you know, like the same

448
00:24:03,116 --> 00:24:05,676
Speaker 3: as you. So I think with music it's the same

449
00:24:05,676 --> 00:24:07,476
Speaker 3: with me. I can put that hat on if I

450
00:24:07,556 --> 00:24:11,356
Speaker 3: need to, But overarching, I mostly am moving just through

451
00:24:11,436 --> 00:24:15,036
Speaker 3: kind of association and feeling and thinking, Oh, I do

452
00:24:15,156 --> 00:24:17,596
Speaker 3: like that as a sense, And I spent a lot

453
00:24:17,636 --> 00:24:19,396
Speaker 3: of my teenage yers trying to find chords that I

454
00:24:19,436 --> 00:24:21,716
Speaker 3: had no idea what they were because they excited me

455
00:24:21,756 --> 00:24:24,796
Speaker 3: so much. And but then once those cars become part

456
00:24:24,796 --> 00:24:27,156
Speaker 3: of your repertoire, then then your kind of repertoire grows.

457
00:24:27,236 --> 00:24:30,676
Speaker 3: But I would still call it a non theoretical songwriting experience.

458
00:24:31,716 --> 00:24:34,156
Speaker 5: You throw in a couple of chords in the James

459
00:24:34,156 --> 00:24:37,836
Speaker 5: Taylor piece, I mentioned there's a and I tried to

460
00:24:37,836 --> 00:24:38,956
Speaker 5: pick it out and I got.

461
00:24:38,796 --> 00:24:41,516
Speaker 3: A flat major. I think I know the moment that

462
00:24:41,876 --> 00:24:42,236
Speaker 3: it is.

463
00:24:42,236 --> 00:24:43,916
Speaker 5: It like, is it a I'm going to get this wrong.

464
00:24:43,996 --> 00:24:46,396
Speaker 5: Was it a tritone at that point or it's.

465
00:24:46,596 --> 00:24:48,676
Speaker 3: Well, it's half of a tritone, which is a minor third,

466
00:24:48,716 --> 00:24:51,676
Speaker 3: but it has a similar sense about it. It's like

467
00:24:51,716 --> 00:24:55,836
Speaker 3: a like one of my favorite things to do, besides

468
00:24:55,956 --> 00:24:59,436
Speaker 3: tune my own guitar, it's to do what we what

469
00:24:59,476 --> 00:25:03,476
Speaker 3: we call pivoting, and pivoting is not really a musical thing.

470
00:25:03,516 --> 00:25:05,636
Speaker 3: It's like a it's it's a human thing. We understand

471
00:25:06,116 --> 00:25:09,076
Speaker 3: the feeling of putting your your weight or your gravity

472
00:25:09,196 --> 00:25:11,476
Speaker 3: a particular point and moving your weight from one place

473
00:25:11,516 --> 00:25:13,676
Speaker 3: to another. So if I take if I'm standing in

474
00:25:13,756 --> 00:25:16,276
Speaker 3: one place and I stand on one foot and I

475
00:25:16,436 --> 00:25:20,356
Speaker 3: pivot from that foot to standing in another place, then

476
00:25:21,156 --> 00:25:23,076
Speaker 3: I've kind of guided my body through that through that

477
00:25:23,116 --> 00:25:25,996
Speaker 3: experience in a controlled way. So with with with James Taylor,

478
00:25:27,556 --> 00:25:29,916
Speaker 3: h I mean, this song really is one of the

479
00:25:29,916 --> 00:25:35,196
Speaker 3: greatest songs of all time. The sun is slowly see.

480
00:25:39,996 --> 00:25:41,676
Speaker 7: So rising.

481
00:25:44,356 --> 00:25:52,396
Speaker 6: From this all around and Nashti.

482
00:25:53,556 --> 00:25:57,396
Speaker 3: And I think what I did was something like, so.

483
00:25:57,556 --> 00:26:01,836
Speaker 4: Closer eyes, you can close your rights.

484
00:26:02,876 --> 00:26:03,556
Speaker 6: It's all right.

485
00:26:06,676 --> 00:26:11,356
Speaker 8: I don't know love song es. I can't sing the

486
00:26:11,356 --> 00:26:17,916
Speaker 8: booze and I can sing this song.

487
00:26:20,916 --> 00:26:26,796
Speaker 4: You can sing this song when I'm gone. That was

488
00:26:26,836 --> 00:26:28,236
Speaker 4: the moment somewhere else.

489
00:26:28,516 --> 00:26:32,156
Speaker 3: But that note works in discord, but it also works

490
00:26:32,196 --> 00:26:38,196
Speaker 3: in this chord as well, right, So that's been my pivot.

491
00:26:38,996 --> 00:26:40,236
Speaker 7: You can sing this song.

492
00:26:40,356 --> 00:26:43,596
Speaker 3: I could go when and or I could go when

493
00:26:43,676 --> 00:26:48,556
Speaker 3: I go and then I go back to but I

494
00:26:48,596 --> 00:26:50,236
Speaker 3: can sing this. So it's just a little like a

495
00:26:50,276 --> 00:26:52,876
Speaker 3: window of color opens. It's like, oh, I knew world

496
00:26:52,996 --> 00:26:53,596
Speaker 3: just for a moment.

497
00:26:54,876 --> 00:26:58,516
Speaker 5: It's such a nice moment because it follows what makes

498
00:26:58,556 --> 00:27:01,476
Speaker 5: that song distinct in the harmony, which is when it

499
00:27:01,516 --> 00:27:04,316
Speaker 5: goes to the flat seven.

500
00:27:04,196 --> 00:27:06,196
Speaker 3: Yes, which is such a James Taylor move.

501
00:27:06,316 --> 00:27:08,676
Speaker 5: Right, But it's so beautiful in that song. And then

502
00:27:08,716 --> 00:27:10,236
Speaker 5: this just took it off, and I think you do

503
00:27:10,276 --> 00:27:11,236
Speaker 5: it before the solo and it.

504
00:27:11,356 --> 00:27:12,596
Speaker 3: Just absolutely right.

505
00:27:12,636 --> 00:27:14,196
Speaker 5: It just takes it just goes into space.

506
00:27:14,236 --> 00:27:16,396
Speaker 3: You're right on the thing I love about about James

507
00:27:16,436 --> 00:27:21,676
Speaker 3: Taylor is he has this way of he'll often kind

508
00:27:21,716 --> 00:27:24,716
Speaker 3: of reassert his position in a key using what we

509
00:27:24,756 --> 00:27:29,316
Speaker 3: call as musicians a plaguel cadence. So it's like, that's

510
00:27:29,316 --> 00:27:33,316
Speaker 3: what we'll do. It's like saying, Okay, I'm an F

511
00:27:33,436 --> 00:27:36,076
Speaker 3: and then I'm going to go, which kind of means

512
00:27:36,156 --> 00:27:37,836
Speaker 3: it's like B flat. Fan's like, I'm really home, I'm

513
00:27:37,836 --> 00:27:38,156
Speaker 3: really home.

514
00:27:38,196 --> 00:27:38,756
Speaker 6: I'm really home.

515
00:27:38,996 --> 00:27:41,556
Speaker 3: And he does a thing called a plague on plaguel

516
00:27:41,596 --> 00:27:44,676
Speaker 3: cadence where he'll go, he'll be, he'll be in one

517
00:27:44,756 --> 00:27:47,836
Speaker 3: key and then he'll go into another key, and then

518
00:27:47,876 --> 00:27:48,996
Speaker 3: he'll do a play.

519
00:27:49,236 --> 00:27:49,756
Speaker 6: In that key.

520
00:27:50,076 --> 00:27:53,076
Speaker 3: And it's a really comforting kind of harmonic instinct that

521
00:27:53,076 --> 00:27:55,716
Speaker 3: he has and I really enjoy it. But what plagueal

522
00:27:55,716 --> 00:27:58,876
Speaker 3: cadences do is they move you to into the darker

523
00:27:58,916 --> 00:28:00,396
Speaker 3: side of a key. It moves it and moves you

524
00:28:00,436 --> 00:28:02,676
Speaker 3: into into the flat side of a key, which you're

525
00:28:02,716 --> 00:28:06,196
Speaker 3: kind of going into the yeah, into the into the

526
00:28:06,276 --> 00:28:12,116
Speaker 3: dark side, onto the flat side as opposed to right.

527
00:28:12,316 --> 00:28:14,716
Speaker 3: That will be like the brighter side. You can go

528
00:28:14,796 --> 00:28:17,556
Speaker 3: bright forever in that direction around what we call the

529
00:28:17,556 --> 00:28:18,716
Speaker 3: circle of fifths, or you.

530
00:28:18,676 --> 00:28:19,236
Speaker 4: Can go.

531
00:28:20,756 --> 00:28:23,196
Speaker 3: Darker and darker and it gets like into the deeper

532
00:28:23,236 --> 00:28:25,036
Speaker 3: news of the key. So one of the reasons why

533
00:28:25,716 --> 00:28:31,116
Speaker 3: you can say this where gone is surprising is because

534
00:28:31,116 --> 00:28:34,596
Speaker 3: that is a really bright chord in comparison to F anyway,

535
00:28:34,996 --> 00:28:37,316
Speaker 3: but especially given the context of all the plagual cadences,

536
00:28:37,316 --> 00:28:39,596
Speaker 3: which is like dark thing darkening, it's like even more

537
00:28:39,956 --> 00:28:42,396
Speaker 3: of a statement to say, oh, I'm going to go here,

538
00:28:42,436 --> 00:28:44,996
Speaker 3: and suddenly it's we're in this other key. I think

539
00:28:45,036 --> 00:28:46,356
Speaker 3: I'm playing this now in F on the album, I

540
00:28:46,356 --> 00:28:48,516
Speaker 3: think it's an F sharp, but in this context it's

541
00:28:48,556 --> 00:28:51,716
Speaker 3: a D D major, which is like full full of light,

542
00:28:51,916 --> 00:28:54,796
Speaker 3: you know, in comparison to to the F. But then,

543
00:28:55,156 --> 00:28:58,836
Speaker 3: but then some of these other James Taylory areas are

544
00:28:58,956 --> 00:29:01,996
Speaker 3: much darker. And again I can describe these things in

545
00:29:02,036 --> 00:29:05,516
Speaker 3: theoretical terms, but but foundationally these are just like sensations

546
00:29:05,516 --> 00:29:07,636
Speaker 3: that are familiar to me. And I think probably too

547
00:29:07,716 --> 00:29:09,516
Speaker 3: many of you too, who are listen and who love

548
00:29:09,596 --> 00:29:11,676
Speaker 3: listening to music, is that you have you're affected by

549
00:29:11,716 --> 00:29:15,596
Speaker 3: the harmonic relationships. My kind of fascination and job as

550
00:29:15,636 --> 00:29:19,556
Speaker 3: a musician and an arranger and harmonist is to try

551
00:29:19,596 --> 00:29:21,876
Speaker 3: and understand the impact that some of these things can

552
00:29:21,916 --> 00:29:23,956
Speaker 3: have on my songs and my choices that I can

553
00:29:23,996 --> 00:29:27,236
Speaker 3: control those moments of contrast or okay, a little bit

554
00:29:27,236 --> 00:29:29,836
Speaker 3: of sunlight here, or let's make some fog, or let's

555
00:29:29,876 --> 00:29:31,836
Speaker 3: let's make this feel heavy, or make this feel light

556
00:29:31,996 --> 00:29:34,476
Speaker 3: or and I love playing with all those sensations.

557
00:29:34,836 --> 00:29:37,396
Speaker 5: It's funny you describe it as going a little dark

558
00:29:37,436 --> 00:29:40,396
Speaker 5: with the with the playable cadence, because when I hear it,

559
00:29:40,476 --> 00:29:43,316
Speaker 5: even in James Taylor, to me, it sounds like that's

560
00:29:43,356 --> 00:29:45,836
Speaker 5: a gospel move It is very much a gospelways going.

561
00:29:45,996 --> 00:29:51,796
Speaker 5: You know, if you think of the beginning of Aretha

562
00:29:51,836 --> 00:29:55,316
Speaker 5: Franklin's You Make Me Feel like a Natural woman, that's piano.

563
00:29:55,876 --> 00:29:57,676
Speaker 3: Yeah.

564
00:29:58,396 --> 00:30:01,676
Speaker 5: And it's also I found and I'm not sure if

565
00:30:01,676 --> 00:30:03,796
Speaker 5: this was deliberate or if this again comes out of

566
00:30:04,396 --> 00:30:06,596
Speaker 5: playing and a guitar. A lot of drone sounds in

567
00:30:06,676 --> 00:30:09,836
Speaker 5: this on this it's something you don't do as much

568
00:30:09,876 --> 00:30:10,436
Speaker 5: on the piano.

569
00:30:10,916 --> 00:30:14,036
Speaker 3: It's true. I think the guitar has that beautiful way

570
00:30:14,116 --> 00:30:17,796
Speaker 3: of offering, like if you leave two strings going throughout

571
00:30:17,836 --> 00:30:19,236
Speaker 3: your song, which I tend to do. I tend to

572
00:30:19,236 --> 00:30:21,836
Speaker 3: play mostly on this guitar using the lower three strings,

573
00:30:22,236 --> 00:30:28,996
Speaker 3: and these kind of just go these estate they're there

574
00:30:29,356 --> 00:30:32,116
Speaker 3: so there's an automatic sense that there's a drone, which

575
00:30:32,156 --> 00:30:35,316
Speaker 3: I've always loved drones so much. On the piano, it's

576
00:30:35,396 --> 00:30:37,876
Speaker 3: it's harder to have these things ringing efforts. You'd have

577
00:30:37,916 --> 00:30:39,436
Speaker 3: to play those notes again and again on a piano

578
00:30:39,516 --> 00:30:41,916
Speaker 3: and orders to get that that same effect. But I

579
00:30:41,916 --> 00:30:45,036
Speaker 3: think that the drone sense kind of grounds the sound

580
00:30:45,036 --> 00:30:47,756
Speaker 3: of the guitar and being quite similar to an open

581
00:30:47,796 --> 00:30:50,436
Speaker 3: tuning guitar anyway, and really being an open tuning guitar.

582
00:30:51,516 --> 00:30:54,076
Speaker 3: Many people who play with open tunings, I think, also

583
00:30:54,116 --> 00:30:57,196
Speaker 3: feel drones are of significance. I think Joni would be one.

584
00:30:58,236 --> 00:31:01,436
Speaker 3: You know that just having having those certain notes that

585
00:31:01,476 --> 00:31:03,036
Speaker 3: could keep going through the cars and other notes that

586
00:31:03,156 --> 00:31:06,876
Speaker 3: change is a really beautiful way of making comonic contrast interesting.

587
00:31:07,076 --> 00:31:07,396
Speaker 4: M hm.

588
00:31:07,996 --> 00:31:11,556
Speaker 5: So we know a change your writing style. Did it

589
00:31:11,636 --> 00:31:12,356
Speaker 5: change your singing?

590
00:31:13,356 --> 00:31:17,196
Speaker 3: Yeah? I would say the thing that foundationally affected my

591
00:31:17,196 --> 00:31:19,076
Speaker 3: style of singing with this album more than anything else

592
00:31:19,116 --> 00:31:20,796
Speaker 3: besides just the fact that it was there was a guitar,

593
00:31:20,916 --> 00:31:24,036
Speaker 3: was actually the the style of recording with these full takes,

594
00:31:24,516 --> 00:31:27,036
Speaker 3: because I think that you know, if I if I

595
00:31:27,076 --> 00:31:29,556
Speaker 3: record my voice as many of us do in isolation,

596
00:31:29,636 --> 00:31:32,316
Speaker 3: you know, you go into the quote unquote vocal booth.

597
00:31:32,356 --> 00:31:34,556
Speaker 3: Having recorded the basis of your song and you do

598
00:31:34,596 --> 00:31:38,076
Speaker 3: a performance of the song, you're not necessarily at one

599
00:31:38,156 --> 00:31:40,476
Speaker 3: with any of the elements in terms of of a

600
00:31:40,556 --> 00:31:44,996
Speaker 3: of a performance aspect. You're you're reacting, and so you're

601
00:31:45,036 --> 00:31:47,876
Speaker 3: attached in that way, but you're not you're there's there's

602
00:31:47,876 --> 00:31:50,436
Speaker 3: not that sense of dualism. So so here if I

603
00:31:50,436 --> 00:31:52,436
Speaker 3: if I sing and play the guitar at the same time,

604
00:31:52,956 --> 00:31:57,316
Speaker 3: because I'm one person, my phrasing will move along with

605
00:31:57,356 --> 00:32:00,836
Speaker 3: my instrument. My dynamics will be in line with my instrument.

606
00:32:01,036 --> 00:32:04,196
Speaker 3: I will naturally kind of create a sense of conversation.

607
00:32:05,156 --> 00:32:16,196
Speaker 3: You know, Son is saying, what happens is between my

608
00:32:16,276 --> 00:32:18,156
Speaker 3: vocal phrases, the guitar will kind of rise up like

609
00:32:18,196 --> 00:32:20,916
Speaker 3: a wave, and then it will rescind a little bit

610
00:32:20,916 --> 00:32:22,836
Speaker 3: when I sing, and then it will fill in the gap.

611
00:32:22,916 --> 00:32:25,636
Speaker 3: So that the dynamics I think of my singing were

612
00:32:25,676 --> 00:32:29,036
Speaker 3: really inspired by and informed by the way I play

613
00:32:29,076 --> 00:32:32,596
Speaker 3: the guitar, and vice versa. I think the guitar was

614
00:32:32,676 --> 00:32:35,516
Speaker 3: inspired by the by the voice as well. I think

615
00:32:35,556 --> 00:32:40,116
Speaker 3: in general, as a multi instrumentalist and enthusiastic of instruments

616
00:32:40,116 --> 00:32:42,196
Speaker 3: in general. I think that instruments are at the best

617
00:32:42,196 --> 00:32:44,636
Speaker 3: when they feel like voices in general. You know, it's

618
00:32:44,676 --> 00:32:48,476
Speaker 3: no wonder that we we bend our strings, or we

619
00:32:48,476 --> 00:32:53,436
Speaker 3: we we add vibrato on violins, or you know, across

620
00:32:53,636 --> 00:32:55,636
Speaker 3: the gamut. That's there's the sense that instruments have a

621
00:32:55,716 --> 00:32:59,516
Speaker 3: variety of ways of imitating the voice essentially. And yeah,

622
00:32:59,556 --> 00:33:01,996
Speaker 3: I think as a guitar player, I can't try and

623
00:33:01,996 --> 00:33:04,316
Speaker 3: play like I'm singing, even if I'm playing a chord.

624
00:33:04,316 --> 00:33:06,516
Speaker 3: You can, you can kind of stroke a chord, or

625
00:33:06,556 --> 00:33:10,996
Speaker 3: you can it's like you breathe, you know, it's like

626
00:33:11,156 --> 00:33:12,436
Speaker 3: the way that the voice does. I think that the

627
00:33:13,116 --> 00:33:15,996
Speaker 3: least interesting kind of guitar players, I know, play the

628
00:33:15,996 --> 00:33:20,276
Speaker 3: guitar like it's like it's a guitar, if that makes sense.

629
00:33:20,396 --> 00:33:24,676
Speaker 5: You're bringing up an interesting idea, which is modern recording

630
00:33:24,716 --> 00:33:29,236
Speaker 5: now is you record everything separately, and even folk artists

631
00:33:29,236 --> 00:33:29,836
Speaker 5: now I'm sure you do.

632
00:33:29,956 --> 00:33:32,636
Speaker 3: A guitar is separately, yeah, isolation.

633
00:33:34,116 --> 00:33:38,996
Speaker 5: But then you lose some of that interplay between the instruments.

634
00:33:39,196 --> 00:33:39,476
Speaker 1: Now.

635
00:33:39,916 --> 00:33:41,756
Speaker 5: The other thing that's happened to recording is everything is

636
00:33:41,796 --> 00:33:44,756
Speaker 5: now on a grid. So when you're talking about the swells.

637
00:33:44,796 --> 00:33:47,316
Speaker 5: You're also changing the tempo, which is something you don't

638
00:33:47,356 --> 00:33:48,636
Speaker 5: hear a lot in modern music.

639
00:33:48,676 --> 00:33:50,756
Speaker 3: It's true, you know, it's such a good point you make.

640
00:33:50,876 --> 00:33:53,516
Speaker 3: I take for granted that I don't play in time

641
00:33:53,556 --> 00:33:55,356
Speaker 3: a lot of the time, but I think, you know,

642
00:33:55,396 --> 00:33:59,676
Speaker 3: oftentimes the way our psychologies are are kind of illustrated

643
00:33:59,716 --> 00:34:01,516
Speaker 3: now in terms of like a canvas or a workflow

644
00:34:01,636 --> 00:34:04,476
Speaker 3: is if you look at a computer and you're running

645
00:34:04,476 --> 00:34:08,916
Speaker 3: a daw audio software, you see grits constantly. There were

646
00:34:09,116 --> 00:34:10,716
Speaker 3: think only two songs out of the eleven on this

647
00:34:10,756 --> 00:34:13,116
Speaker 3: album that I recorded to a grid. Everything else is

648
00:34:13,156 --> 00:34:16,796
Speaker 3: totally whimsical in terms of time, which I really enjoy.

649
00:34:18,356 --> 00:34:21,796
Speaker 3: It's funny. I've always kind of felt comfortable going off

650
00:34:21,796 --> 00:34:23,796
Speaker 3: the grid, especially with recording, and the thing that really

651
00:34:23,836 --> 00:34:26,676
Speaker 3: taught me how to do it well was back in

652
00:34:26,716 --> 00:34:28,716
Speaker 3: twenty sixteen when I released my debut album in My

653
00:34:28,836 --> 00:34:31,436
Speaker 3: Room with the way that I funded that album and

654
00:34:31,476 --> 00:34:35,076
Speaker 3: I built the campaign was through a service called Patreon.

655
00:34:35,076 --> 00:34:36,756
Speaker 3: It's like one of the craphnic websites that I'm sure

656
00:34:36,796 --> 00:34:39,956
Speaker 3: you know. And I decided to launch a campaign where

657
00:34:39,956 --> 00:34:42,676
Speaker 3: I would harmonize my fans, harmonize my Oudence member. So

658
00:34:42,716 --> 00:34:45,236
Speaker 3: I asked people to send me fifteen second snippets of

659
00:34:45,276 --> 00:34:48,996
Speaker 3: any melody in any language of their choosing. Some some of

660
00:34:48,996 --> 00:34:51,156
Speaker 3: them wrote new melodies, some of them sang songs I knew,

661
00:34:51,756 --> 00:34:54,516
Speaker 3: and I would kind of send it back to them harmonized,

662
00:34:54,836 --> 00:34:56,756
Speaker 3: and I would film myself singing the parts and I

663
00:34:56,756 --> 00:34:59,036
Speaker 3: would upload them as videos, and I did about one

664
00:34:59,076 --> 00:35:01,436
Speaker 3: hundred in the end, and it really it was a

665
00:35:01,476 --> 00:35:03,556
Speaker 3: really fun way of building an audience online in those

666
00:35:03,596 --> 00:35:06,116
Speaker 3: early days. And to me, it was like I had

667
00:35:06,116 --> 00:35:08,836
Speaker 3: to get really good at harmonizing quickly because I'd received

668
00:35:08,836 --> 00:35:13,316
Speaker 3: so many different submissions, and that process it was like

669
00:35:13,996 --> 00:35:16,876
Speaker 3: solving Sudoku's you know. It's like someone would send melody

670
00:35:16,876 --> 00:35:20,156
Speaker 3: that goes, you know, whatever the melody was, and I

671
00:35:20,196 --> 00:35:22,876
Speaker 3: would I would find a solution for it harmonically that

672
00:35:22,916 --> 00:35:25,436
Speaker 3: felt just like ticklish and fun and made the person

673
00:35:25,476 --> 00:35:27,716
Speaker 3: sound really good. But no one was seeing young Grid,

674
00:35:28,396 --> 00:35:32,916
Speaker 3: so I had to create ways of making somebody's time

675
00:35:33,156 --> 00:35:36,716
Speaker 3: make sense without imposing anything on them. You know, I

676
00:35:36,756 --> 00:35:38,996
Speaker 3: had melodies from like two year old kids, you know,

677
00:35:39,996 --> 00:35:43,316
Speaker 3: super microtonal as I'm sure was not their intention, But

678
00:35:43,356 --> 00:35:45,316
Speaker 3: there's this one girl, so she's saying, like.

679
00:35:45,716 --> 00:35:49,836
Speaker 6: Tweet good, tweet, golys, you.

680
00:35:49,836 --> 00:35:53,236
Speaker 3: Know, and my job is not to change anything about

681
00:35:53,236 --> 00:35:57,156
Speaker 3: the melody all the time. But so I modulated around

682
00:35:57,196 --> 00:36:00,796
Speaker 3: her using all these microtonal chords to make her sound incredible,

683
00:36:01,196 --> 00:36:03,476
Speaker 3: you know. And it was a really fun, like philosophical

684
00:36:03,596 --> 00:36:04,996
Speaker 3: musical excise for me. But I think that one of

685
00:36:05,036 --> 00:36:07,556
Speaker 3: the biggest things it taught me, especially with you know,

686
00:36:07,556 --> 00:36:11,036
Speaker 3: accompanying musicians would play things in time, was how you

687
00:36:11,116 --> 00:36:13,716
Speaker 3: can make you can kind of make someone sound good

688
00:36:13,796 --> 00:36:17,876
Speaker 3: by following their time rather than imposing any kind of grid.

689
00:36:17,916 --> 00:36:19,556
Speaker 3: It wouldn't have worked if I tried to impose a grid.

690
00:36:19,636 --> 00:36:22,076
Speaker 3: So weirdly, I learned a lot of lessons from that

691
00:36:22,156 --> 00:36:24,356
Speaker 3: process that I applied to this album, because I think

692
00:36:24,396 --> 00:36:28,396
Speaker 3: with this album, I was kind of harmonizing myself in

693
00:36:28,516 --> 00:36:32,116
Speaker 3: the sense that I'd record a full length take a recording,

694
00:36:32,236 --> 00:36:34,476
Speaker 3: and then I would begin the process of in so

695
00:36:34,556 --> 00:36:37,476
Speaker 3: much as it was necessary, adding that context or decoration

696
00:36:37,836 --> 00:36:41,356
Speaker 3: or you know, just sort of like a yeah, elements

697
00:36:41,436 --> 00:36:45,756
Speaker 3: to make that performance shine. And for certain songs, like

698
00:36:45,836 --> 00:36:48,356
Speaker 3: there's one song called called Icarus, which is by a

699
00:36:48,396 --> 00:36:49,996
Speaker 3: group called The Stage, which I just love so much.

700
00:36:50,076 --> 00:36:54,116
Speaker 3: The song that is primarily just completely me doing it live.

701
00:36:54,156 --> 00:36:57,516
Speaker 3: Same with a song called Norwegian Would, which I recorded.

702
00:36:57,556 --> 00:37:00,396
Speaker 3: It's fundamentally just that live performance of me playing the song.

703
00:37:00,836 --> 00:37:02,996
Speaker 3: And then other songs like the Beach Boys, Keeping on Summer,

704
00:37:03,316 --> 00:37:05,516
Speaker 3: some of my own songs like Heaven Butterflies, and I

705
00:37:05,636 --> 00:37:07,436
Speaker 3: know a little some of these things have a little

706
00:37:07,476 --> 00:37:10,316
Speaker 3: bit more of that layering effect. But I love the

707
00:37:10,436 --> 00:37:13,556
Speaker 3: challenge of following something that feels natural and organic and

708
00:37:13,676 --> 00:37:16,716
Speaker 3: alive without trying to. In music, we say the world

709
00:37:16,796 --> 00:37:18,756
Speaker 3: quantize it, you know, so of lock it to a grid,

710
00:37:19,636 --> 00:37:21,516
Speaker 3: make it rigid in terms of rhythm, but all some

711
00:37:21,676 --> 00:37:24,636
Speaker 3: terms of tuning. In terms of sound, I love all

712
00:37:24,676 --> 00:37:26,316
Speaker 3: that sqriggly imperfection.

713
00:37:27,476 --> 00:37:30,756
Speaker 5: Norwegian wood is interesting because because there's always a debate

714
00:37:31,356 --> 00:37:35,076
Speaker 5: about whether Norwegian woods in three four times or six eight?

715
00:37:35,276 --> 00:37:35,476
Speaker 3: Yeah.

716
00:37:35,636 --> 00:37:38,556
Speaker 5: Yeah, And you do something. First of all, you're making

717
00:37:38,636 --> 00:37:43,436
Speaker 5: a sound that sounds like you're you're striking above the net.

718
00:37:43,636 --> 00:37:44,036
Speaker 3: Is that true?

719
00:37:44,156 --> 00:37:44,356
Speaker 4: Yeah?

720
00:37:44,356 --> 00:37:48,076
Speaker 3: This thing I did do that. Okay, So I a

721
00:37:48,116 --> 00:38:00,956
Speaker 3: little fire, that's one thing. But that rhythm rhythm for that, yeah, again,

722
00:38:00,996 --> 00:38:04,716
Speaker 3: it's that drone thing. And I love I love the

723
00:38:04,996 --> 00:38:07,676
Speaker 3: palmuting sound in general, but what you're hearing a lot

724
00:38:07,956 --> 00:38:11,876
Speaker 3: is me hammering on with my left hand and these

725
00:38:11,916 --> 00:38:16,796
Speaker 3: little baby kind of like strings. And I love it

726
00:38:16,796 --> 00:38:18,436
Speaker 3: because it feels, again, it doesn't feel like a guitar.

727
00:38:18,516 --> 00:38:21,556
Speaker 3: It doesn't feel like I'm hey, you know, I'm not.

728
00:38:21,756 --> 00:38:22,036
Speaker 4: It's like.

729
00:38:24,956 --> 00:38:29,436
Speaker 3: It's like partly percussion, partly partly drum, partly kind of drone,

730
00:38:29,476 --> 00:38:32,036
Speaker 3: and it's there's something almost like like a climber about it,

731
00:38:32,116 --> 00:38:33,956
Speaker 3: like some piano about it's really kind of groovy.

732
00:38:35,356 --> 00:38:37,316
Speaker 5: It sounds a little and I know it's not. It

733
00:38:37,356 --> 00:38:38,836
Speaker 5: sounds a little busting over almost.

734
00:38:39,356 --> 00:38:42,116
Speaker 3: Yes, the first part somewhat yeah, somewhat yeah.

735
00:38:42,836 --> 00:38:46,796
Speaker 5: But then the chorus you're just playing, yeah.

736
00:38:46,716 --> 00:38:47,036
Speaker 3: That's more.

737
00:38:47,556 --> 00:38:47,756
Speaker 6: Yeah.

738
00:38:50,676 --> 00:38:52,356
Speaker 3: But I love how I mean. One of the things

739
00:38:52,356 --> 00:38:53,716
Speaker 3: about this guitar I love is that it has a

740
00:38:53,756 --> 00:38:55,636
Speaker 3: six string neck but only five strings, so there's much

741
00:38:55,636 --> 00:38:58,556
Speaker 3: more space between the strings to just kind of find

742
00:38:58,636 --> 00:39:03,556
Speaker 3: these sounds. And somehow it's it's it's it's like an

743
00:39:03,716 --> 00:39:08,276
Speaker 3: an appealing system for me to to find these these

744
00:39:08,356 --> 00:39:12,196
Speaker 3: kind of ticklish, little little pockets. In this song. I

745
00:39:12,236 --> 00:39:14,396
Speaker 3: also bend do a lot of string bending, which again

746
00:39:14,476 --> 00:39:16,516
Speaker 3: is possible because of the space between the strings, but

747
00:39:17,236 --> 00:39:20,236
Speaker 3: you know. Yeah, for this particular song, the time is

748
00:39:20,316 --> 00:39:23,636
Speaker 3: constantly shifting slightly because it's all live. But I focused

749
00:39:23,676 --> 00:39:25,116
Speaker 3: on the fact that this was just me doing a

750
00:39:25,156 --> 00:39:27,356
Speaker 3: take and singing the song, and only the very last

751
00:39:27,396 --> 00:39:29,276
Speaker 3: minute that I had a couple of little moments of

752
00:39:29,516 --> 00:39:30,436
Speaker 3: decoration here and there.

753
00:39:31,836 --> 00:39:34,956
Speaker 2: Well, LA's break and we'll be back with Jacob Collier.

754
00:39:39,316 --> 00:39:39,436
Speaker 1: Now.

755
00:39:39,516 --> 00:39:41,756
Speaker 5: Probably the most produced song is your Beach Boy cover

756
00:39:42,916 --> 00:39:44,956
Speaker 5: of keep an Eye in Summer. Yeah, not their best

757
00:39:44,996 --> 00:39:46,396
Speaker 5: known song, No tremendous song.

758
00:39:46,476 --> 00:39:47,156
Speaker 3: I love that song.

759
00:39:47,516 --> 00:39:49,396
Speaker 5: What inspired you to do that song?

760
00:39:49,996 --> 00:39:51,436
Speaker 3: You know? This was one of the things that I

761
00:39:51,596 --> 00:39:55,316
Speaker 3: had before the four day window began. I'd recorded a

762
00:39:55,436 --> 00:39:58,036
Speaker 3: rendition of this song summer of twenty twenty four. She

763
00:39:58,156 --> 00:40:00,636
Speaker 3: was on Midsummer's Day and it was one of those

764
00:40:00,796 --> 00:40:03,236
Speaker 3: rare days that I'm sure many of you will know,

765
00:40:03,316 --> 00:40:06,516
Speaker 3: where you you know, your life's been full, and you've

766
00:40:06,556 --> 00:40:09,316
Speaker 3: been busy and things have been going on, but you

767
00:40:09,436 --> 00:40:13,076
Speaker 3: just find yourself at the weekend home, you got half

768
00:40:13,116 --> 00:40:15,076
Speaker 3: the noon ahead of it. You think, oh, what should

769
00:40:15,076 --> 00:40:17,596
Speaker 3: I do? I've just I found myself, you know, a

770
00:40:17,676 --> 00:40:19,996
Speaker 3: Lauren to myself, and so I thought, well, maybe I

771
00:40:19,996 --> 00:40:22,316
Speaker 3: should just record keep an arm Summer because it was

772
00:40:22,316 --> 00:40:23,556
Speaker 3: a song I've been sort of jamming on for a

773
00:40:23,596 --> 00:40:26,796
Speaker 3: bit and playing, and I just got my my ten

774
00:40:26,876 --> 00:40:29,636
Speaker 3: string guitar, which was a brand new kind of angle

775
00:40:29,716 --> 00:40:31,876
Speaker 3: on the fire string. It's just the twelve string equivalent

776
00:40:33,276 --> 00:40:36,076
Speaker 3: of the fire string. And so I sat down and

777
00:40:36,556 --> 00:40:38,436
Speaker 3: I took me about three four hours and I recorded

778
00:40:38,476 --> 00:40:41,036
Speaker 3: this quite scrappy arrangement of it with all these different

779
00:40:41,116 --> 00:40:44,756
Speaker 3: layers and things, and that that arrangement of the song

780
00:40:44,876 --> 00:40:48,716
Speaker 3: existing actually was quite a big part of the inspirations

781
00:40:48,916 --> 00:40:50,996
Speaker 3: to make this album at all, because I when I

782
00:40:51,036 --> 00:40:52,676
Speaker 3: sat down in May to do this record, I thought, well,

783
00:40:52,676 --> 00:40:54,036
Speaker 3: what do I have that I could work with it?

784
00:40:54,116 --> 00:40:56,036
Speaker 3: It's like, well, I have that arrangement of keeping on Summer,

785
00:40:56,596 --> 00:40:58,596
Speaker 3: maybe I could build a whole record around that world,

786
00:40:58,676 --> 00:41:00,916
Speaker 3: because it it's a musical world I really love, and

787
00:41:01,396 --> 00:41:03,876
Speaker 3: a sort of sonority of a particular area of my

788
00:41:03,996 --> 00:41:06,036
Speaker 3: taste that I've really wanted to explore and go deep

789
00:41:06,036 --> 00:41:08,036
Speaker 3: intofferent ages and sorry, what is that?

790
00:41:08,516 --> 00:41:10,436
Speaker 1: What is that a that you liked?

791
00:41:10,756 --> 00:41:12,636
Speaker 3: I think it's a combination of the sound of the

792
00:41:12,676 --> 00:41:17,916
Speaker 3: guitar mixed with a sort of stripped back approach. There's

793
00:41:17,956 --> 00:41:20,476
Speaker 3: also with Keeping On Summer. A microphone that I use

794
00:41:20,516 --> 00:41:22,516
Speaker 3: called an R a T eight ribbon mic which has

795
00:41:22,596 --> 00:41:25,676
Speaker 3: that really nice hiss like to everything, so when you

796
00:41:25,756 --> 00:41:28,316
Speaker 3: record something on it, it feels really kind of feels analog,

797
00:41:28,356 --> 00:41:31,916
Speaker 3: feels a life, feels like warm and rich. So there's

798
00:41:31,916 --> 00:41:34,116
Speaker 3: something about that, the word that which is part a

799
00:41:34,156 --> 00:41:35,916
Speaker 3: big part of this world, which for me made a

800
00:41:35,956 --> 00:41:40,876
Speaker 3: big impact, and I used it on Keeping on Summer.

801
00:41:41,036 --> 00:41:42,796
Speaker 3: It's one of the first times I'd ever recorded using it,

802
00:41:42,876 --> 00:41:46,556
Speaker 3: and so I got really excited by this hissy warm world.

803
00:41:46,676 --> 00:41:48,596
Speaker 3: I'd explored it a little bit with Jesse Volume two

804
00:41:50,196 --> 00:41:53,116
Speaker 3: back in the day, but yeah, there's there's something about

805
00:41:53,156 --> 00:41:57,316
Speaker 3: the the acoustic guitar meets vocal harmony world that inspired me.

806
00:41:57,436 --> 00:42:00,276
Speaker 3: And obviously the king of vocal harmony and songwriting to

807
00:42:00,356 --> 00:42:02,956
Speaker 3: me is Brian has always been Brian. So to cover

808
00:42:03,036 --> 00:42:04,756
Speaker 3: that song Keeping On Summer felt like a really nice

809
00:42:04,756 --> 00:42:07,756
Speaker 3: sort of homage to the great man. And we obviously

810
00:42:07,756 --> 00:42:09,756
Speaker 3: lost Brian this year, so it just like I renae

811
00:42:09,836 --> 00:42:12,716
Speaker 3: to share that arrangement with the world as just a

812
00:42:12,756 --> 00:42:17,276
Speaker 3: sort of really warm, sunlit, gladeful afternoon in England, thinking oh,

813
00:42:17,316 --> 00:42:18,636
Speaker 3: maybe I can do a rendition of the song that

814
00:42:18,676 --> 00:42:20,556
Speaker 3: I really love and yes, not not one of his

815
00:42:20,596 --> 00:42:22,836
Speaker 3: big hits, but a beautiful modulation in that in that

816
00:42:22,916 --> 00:42:23,396
Speaker 3: bridge there.

817
00:42:23,676 --> 00:42:27,996
Speaker 5: M h, absolutely it goes up. I can't remember the chords.

818
00:42:27,756 --> 00:42:30,476
Speaker 3: Exactly, major third or something on my third.

819
00:42:30,956 --> 00:42:32,196
Speaker 5: Did you get a chance to meet him?

820
00:42:33,276 --> 00:42:36,516
Speaker 3: Sorry, I never did get a chance to me, Brian,

821
00:42:38,076 --> 00:42:41,236
Speaker 3: and he, like Joni, was one of these people who

822
00:42:41,356 --> 00:42:43,596
Speaker 3: sits in a total on a throne in my head,

823
00:42:44,276 --> 00:42:47,516
Speaker 3: someone who like I never felt the need to to

824
00:42:47,676 --> 00:42:49,996
Speaker 3: meet him for any I have enough of a feast

825
00:42:50,076 --> 00:42:52,956
Speaker 3: of inspiration just from his work. But I did see

826
00:42:52,996 --> 00:42:56,636
Speaker 3: him play once and it was it was unbelievable funny.

827
00:42:56,636 --> 00:42:59,796
Speaker 5: When you talk about this album, it was about restricting choices,

828
00:42:59,996 --> 00:43:03,196
Speaker 5: or at least putting some of your palette away, which

829
00:43:03,236 --> 00:43:05,836
Speaker 5: is you know, famously, he's the guy that was almost

830
00:43:05,916 --> 00:43:08,836
Speaker 5: driven crazy by the number of choices he could make it.

831
00:43:09,596 --> 00:43:14,796
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. I mean, here's a guy who embraced the

832
00:43:14,916 --> 00:43:17,436
Speaker 3: fireman's bells and the timpany and the swanny whistle and

833
00:43:18,036 --> 00:43:21,116
Speaker 3: the and the there men, of course, and it's it's

834
00:43:21,596 --> 00:43:23,436
Speaker 3: to me. It gave me so much permission as a

835
00:43:23,636 --> 00:43:26,636
Speaker 3: kid to play and to explore these big words, but

836
00:43:27,156 --> 00:43:29,596
Speaker 3: I also love that. I think it's a bootleg album

837
00:43:30,556 --> 00:43:33,036
Speaker 3: that Brian put out or was put out of just

838
00:43:33,116 --> 00:43:35,236
Speaker 3: Brian playing songs on the piano. It might be called

839
00:43:35,236 --> 00:43:36,996
Speaker 3: like Brian at the Piano or something like that, and

840
00:43:37,116 --> 00:43:38,676
Speaker 3: he just plays these songs at the piano, and you

841
00:43:38,756 --> 00:43:41,796
Speaker 3: recognize with Brian how strong the songs are, because when

842
00:43:41,836 --> 00:43:44,236
Speaker 3: you take away all the swanny whistles and the craziness

843
00:43:44,276 --> 00:43:47,036
Speaker 3: of the sandwich I love so much, you're left with

844
00:43:47,076 --> 00:43:49,356
Speaker 3: a really beautiful song. And so yeah, for me, that

845
00:43:49,436 --> 00:43:51,476
Speaker 3: was so inspiring and still so inspiring to me as

846
00:43:51,516 --> 00:43:53,796
Speaker 3: a as a Songwriter's like, how can you make something

847
00:43:53,876 --> 00:43:57,556
Speaker 3: that both works in a totally acoustic strip back scenario

848
00:43:57,596 --> 00:44:00,756
Speaker 3: and also works when you scale all those layers on

849
00:44:01,116 --> 00:44:03,276
Speaker 3: top of other layers, and you know, you have a

850
00:44:03,316 --> 00:44:07,036
Speaker 3: song like good Vibrations, which I think I look back

851
00:44:07,076 --> 00:44:08,596
Speaker 3: at that at the first time I heard that song

852
00:44:08,636 --> 00:44:11,116
Speaker 3: and it was just like the whole, this whole new

853
00:44:11,156 --> 00:44:13,436
Speaker 3: faction of creativity became available to me. It's like I

854
00:44:13,476 --> 00:44:16,316
Speaker 3: didn't I just didn't know you could do that. But

855
00:44:16,356 --> 00:44:17,796
Speaker 3: when Brian saits to the piano plays the song, it

856
00:44:17,836 --> 00:44:19,276
Speaker 3: sounds great too, you know, and That's why I love

857
00:44:19,276 --> 00:44:21,156
Speaker 3: about Brian and love about those songs.

858
00:44:21,556 --> 00:44:23,796
Speaker 5: I want to talk about a couple more of your influences,

859
00:44:23,916 --> 00:44:26,116
Speaker 5: how they may or may not have found their way

860
00:44:26,156 --> 00:44:26,956
Speaker 5: into this album.

861
00:44:27,116 --> 00:44:29,156
Speaker 3: Yeah, you grew up in a musical.

862
00:44:28,996 --> 00:44:31,756
Speaker 5: Family, and you said you sang bar corrals.

863
00:44:31,956 --> 00:44:34,196
Speaker 3: I did what we did. Did you sing by the way, Well,

864
00:44:34,236 --> 00:44:36,996
Speaker 3: I was the bass, so I would and i'd often

865
00:44:37,036 --> 00:44:40,596
Speaker 3: I'd often add notes in or imparize things around those,

866
00:44:40,756 --> 00:44:42,996
Speaker 3: around those those things. I always have to have a

867
00:44:43,036 --> 00:44:45,276
Speaker 3: pencil handy and would be, you know, jotting notes in

868
00:44:45,356 --> 00:44:47,356
Speaker 3: and things, just like learning what I liked and what

869
00:44:47,476 --> 00:44:50,436
Speaker 3: I and what I responded to. But yeah, so I

870
00:44:50,516 --> 00:44:52,276
Speaker 3: was brought up by a single mom. I'm the eldest

871
00:44:52,316 --> 00:44:54,556
Speaker 3: of three kids. So we were s a TV, you know,

872
00:44:54,636 --> 00:44:56,876
Speaker 3: and my mum sings ten that kind of Shekina goes

873
00:44:56,916 --> 00:44:58,756
Speaker 3: ah and he kind of comes out with these tenor lines.

874
00:44:59,196 --> 00:45:02,516
Speaker 3: But I really loved I love that feeling. I still

875
00:45:02,556 --> 00:45:04,996
Speaker 3: love that feeling now of sitting with those those lovely

876
00:45:05,036 --> 00:45:07,316
Speaker 3: people and just singing together. And actually is what Brian

877
00:45:07,436 --> 00:45:08,796
Speaker 3: used to do too, used to sing with his brothers.

878
00:45:08,836 --> 00:45:11,956
Speaker 3: He used to transcribe four Freshman arrangements and they'd sing

879
00:45:11,996 --> 00:45:14,076
Speaker 3: it all together as a group. And I think he

880
00:45:14,596 --> 00:45:17,556
Speaker 3: did a lot of his process of studying and expanding

881
00:45:17,596 --> 00:45:20,716
Speaker 3: his kind of harmonic palette through learning these arrangements and

882
00:45:20,796 --> 00:45:23,436
Speaker 3: teaching these parts to his brothers. And I love the

883
00:45:23,516 --> 00:45:25,916
Speaker 3: thought that, yeah, he did that and then went on

884
00:45:25,996 --> 00:45:28,036
Speaker 3: to write songs like you know, Surfer Girl or whatever,

885
00:45:28,076 --> 00:45:30,556
Speaker 3: and outcome all these four freshman voice things. But in

886
00:45:30,636 --> 00:45:34,636
Speaker 3: the context of a surf rock song, it's amazing.

887
00:45:35,116 --> 00:45:38,716
Speaker 5: Now are there points where we're hearing a little Bak

888
00:45:38,876 --> 00:45:40,516
Speaker 5: in any of the songs on this album?

889
00:45:40,916 --> 00:45:44,276
Speaker 3: It's a good question. I find him unavoidably inspiring, and

890
00:45:44,396 --> 00:45:46,396
Speaker 3: he shows up in all sorts of places. I think

891
00:45:46,436 --> 00:45:48,836
Speaker 3: there are certain moments. There's a song called Where Did

892
00:45:48,876 --> 00:45:51,436
Speaker 3: My Apple Fall on the album, which is really it's

893
00:45:51,476 --> 00:45:53,396
Speaker 3: quite an austere to. It's quite a strange song. I

894
00:45:53,516 --> 00:45:56,996
Speaker 3: really love it a lot. One of the songs one

895
00:45:56,996 --> 00:45:59,156
Speaker 3: of those song seeds that I had that I didn't

896
00:45:59,196 --> 00:46:00,396
Speaker 3: know what to do with that because it didn't feel

897
00:46:00,396 --> 00:46:02,076
Speaker 3: like it fit on any of the Jesse albums, and

898
00:46:02,156 --> 00:46:05,476
Speaker 3: it didn't really have it a world that where it belonged,

899
00:46:05,516 --> 00:46:07,036
Speaker 3: and I was so excited to get to release it,

900
00:46:07,116 --> 00:46:09,676
Speaker 3: but it's quite it's amos quite classic in terms of

901
00:46:09,756 --> 00:46:14,556
Speaker 3: the harmony, this three part harmony that that moves I

902
00:46:14,596 --> 00:46:16,956
Speaker 3: think in a way that hopefully Bark may may approve of.

903
00:46:17,196 --> 00:46:19,636
Speaker 3: There's another song on the album called tom Thumb, which

904
00:46:19,676 --> 00:46:23,396
Speaker 3: is which is a similar thing, and so it goes

905
00:46:24,036 --> 00:46:24,756
Speaker 3: Tom Thumb.

906
00:46:24,596 --> 00:46:41,196
Speaker 4: Goes, light up the stove of your countenance. You're all

907
00:46:41,356 --> 00:46:42,636
Speaker 4: that matters to me.

908
00:46:44,636 --> 00:46:48,036
Speaker 6: I am a lake or a stone or an hour glass.

909
00:46:49,436 --> 00:46:51,796
Speaker 6: I am a joke that is wasted on.

910
00:46:54,116 --> 00:46:58,156
Speaker 7: Grab me and stoves of your confidence.

911
00:47:00,156 --> 00:47:01,436
Speaker 3: Render me to tatters.

912
00:47:01,556 --> 00:47:02,236
Speaker 6: I'm free.

913
00:47:04,076 --> 00:47:04,556
Speaker 4: I'll be a.

914
00:47:04,636 --> 00:47:09,476
Speaker 6: Steak or a bone or an oven glove. I'll be

915
00:47:09,596 --> 00:47:17,996
Speaker 6: the island the drowns in the sea talm thong, Where

916
00:47:18,436 --> 00:47:19,476
Speaker 6: did you come from?

917
00:47:20,276 --> 00:47:32,196
Speaker 4: The last soft drown and everything tall thought you were gone?

918
00:47:32,916 --> 00:47:40,796
Speaker 6: The found inside everything.

919
00:47:45,356 --> 00:48:02,396
Speaker 3: Oh that's the whole song. Miss that's very short for this.

920
00:48:05,036 --> 00:48:05,356
Speaker 1: What is it?

921
00:48:11,756 --> 00:48:17,236
Speaker 3: It's very classical and I love I love that influence

922
00:48:17,276 --> 00:48:21,196
Speaker 3: showing up in songs. You can't plan what inspires you,

923
00:48:21,756 --> 00:48:23,276
Speaker 3: and when you sit down to write a song, you

924
00:48:23,436 --> 00:48:25,436
Speaker 3: just your job is to make space for whatever wants

925
00:48:25,476 --> 00:48:28,156
Speaker 3: to sort of come through. But I think having loved

926
00:48:28,196 --> 00:48:30,916
Speaker 3: that music for so long, as a kid. It's it's

927
00:48:30,956 --> 00:48:34,756
Speaker 3: always a surprise and delight but also unsurprising to me

928
00:48:34,876 --> 00:48:37,356
Speaker 3: to see certain sort of tragic things make their way

929
00:48:37,356 --> 00:48:39,716
Speaker 3: into songs, And I think, yeah, a progression like that

930
00:48:40,596 --> 00:48:42,876
Speaker 3: wouldn't exist if it wasn't for that that that influence.

931
00:48:42,916 --> 00:48:46,756
Speaker 3: So I definitely didn't learn the bulk of my my

932
00:48:46,836 --> 00:48:49,636
Speaker 3: harmonic understanding or my songwriter style through any kind of

933
00:48:49,716 --> 00:48:53,516
Speaker 3: jazz harmony. I think I was most inspired and informed

934
00:48:53,556 --> 00:48:57,596
Speaker 3: by some of the more expensive classical harmony that I

935
00:48:57,676 --> 00:49:00,236
Speaker 3: loved as as a child, and hearing that find its

936
00:49:00,276 --> 00:49:03,956
Speaker 3: way into into songs to me that that's that's always

937
00:49:03,956 --> 00:49:05,716
Speaker 3: a sign that I'm tapped into something real.

938
00:49:07,276 --> 00:49:09,796
Speaker 5: Here's a trickier one. Benjamin brittin You Love.

939
00:49:10,236 --> 00:49:11,036
Speaker 3: I adore.

940
00:49:13,196 --> 00:49:17,316
Speaker 5: Any little any little bits of Benjamin Britain in here, I.

941
00:49:17,316 --> 00:49:21,116
Speaker 3: Would definitely say so. I think those two songs feel

942
00:49:22,356 --> 00:49:25,716
Speaker 3: again feel britain Esque in to to the to the

943
00:49:26,236 --> 00:49:29,516
Speaker 3: point that they are austere. I think of Britain as

944
00:49:29,516 --> 00:49:32,356
Speaker 3: the master of the austere harmonically, like he he kind

945
00:49:32,396 --> 00:49:35,796
Speaker 3: of plays what's not the chord rather than just what

946
00:49:35,996 --> 00:49:37,716
Speaker 3: is the chord. He will leave out a really important

947
00:49:37,756 --> 00:49:41,756
Speaker 3: note in a chord and make you feel like you're

948
00:49:41,916 --> 00:49:43,876
Speaker 3: like you have to imagine the note instead, you know.

949
00:49:44,076 --> 00:49:46,396
Speaker 5: Well, he often inverted chords in the in the base,

950
00:49:47,396 --> 00:49:49,036
Speaker 5: you'd have a fifth, you'd have.

951
00:49:49,036 --> 00:49:51,036
Speaker 3: A fifth, or a third, or even a seventh or sixth.

952
00:49:51,036 --> 00:49:53,836
Speaker 3: That it really had a had a very bold imagination

953
00:49:53,956 --> 00:49:56,796
Speaker 3: for kind of leaving space in chords and leaving austerity

954
00:49:56,836 --> 00:50:00,036
Speaker 3: within chords. I think Britain to me, it's hard to

955
00:50:00,076 --> 00:50:02,116
Speaker 3: point to a particular moment where it's like, oh, there's

956
00:50:02,556 --> 00:50:05,836
Speaker 3: there's Britain. But I think that the attitude of of

957
00:50:06,636 --> 00:50:10,796
Speaker 3: a harmonic language that can be yeah, both very warm

958
00:50:10,796 --> 00:50:14,636
Speaker 3: and reassuring and also austere and rather unpredictable. I think

959
00:50:14,676 --> 00:50:17,076
Speaker 3: that there's an essence of that which he he was

960
00:50:17,116 --> 00:50:18,716
Speaker 3: like one of the funding fathers for me as a child,

961
00:50:18,796 --> 00:50:22,116
Speaker 3: of being harmonically unpredictable in ways that are just disarming,

962
00:50:22,676 --> 00:50:28,036
Speaker 3: like not just fully fledged and radically dense, but just

963
00:50:28,116 --> 00:50:30,876
Speaker 3: surprising in these gaunt ways.

964
00:50:30,996 --> 00:50:33,156
Speaker 5: Yeah, I was watching a video you made. I'm not

965
00:50:33,196 --> 00:50:35,236
Speaker 5: sure how many years ago you were on Lodger, just

966
00:50:35,756 --> 00:50:39,916
Speaker 5: showing people how you create vocal effects over I think

967
00:50:39,956 --> 00:50:44,596
Speaker 5: he used maybe Hay Jude. I can't I can't remember

968
00:50:44,636 --> 00:50:47,956
Speaker 5: his Hay Jude or sure or something like that. And

969
00:50:48,036 --> 00:50:50,316
Speaker 5: you were just showing people and you were you were

970
00:50:50,356 --> 00:50:53,196
Speaker 5: talking about doing this, and this is how you created

971
00:50:53,276 --> 00:50:55,556
Speaker 5: I think this is where I got your description of

972
00:50:58,476 --> 00:51:01,556
Speaker 5: decoration over top of the melody, and how impatient you

973
00:51:01,636 --> 00:51:04,396
Speaker 5: are to get yes yes to that part. I'm glad

974
00:51:04,396 --> 00:51:09,036
Speaker 5: you've learned patience. But you said something that really struck me.

975
00:51:09,356 --> 00:51:11,516
Speaker 5: You said, and you were speaking very fast, and you said,

976
00:51:11,636 --> 00:51:13,876
Speaker 5: you know, this takes a lot of practice, and then

977
00:51:13,876 --> 00:51:15,236
Speaker 5: you pause and you said and it takes a lot

978
00:51:15,276 --> 00:51:19,116
Speaker 5: of courage and trust. And those two last words really

979
00:51:19,196 --> 00:51:22,916
Speaker 5: interested me because not only I mean, I've dealt with

980
00:51:23,036 --> 00:51:27,076
Speaker 5: writers my whole life. I'm an editor. That's something so

981
00:51:27,156 --> 00:51:34,316
Speaker 5: many people lack courage and trust. And even musicians we

982
00:51:34,436 --> 00:51:38,356
Speaker 5: have in here sometimes who've have great accomplishments and are

983
00:51:38,396 --> 00:51:41,276
Speaker 5: sitting here at some point in their career, don't have

984
00:51:41,396 --> 00:51:45,676
Speaker 5: that faith in their own work at that moment. I'm

985
00:51:45,756 --> 00:51:47,436
Speaker 5: interested where you get that.

986
00:51:47,756 --> 00:51:52,676
Speaker 3: Oh, it's a beautiful question. I think of all the

987
00:51:52,756 --> 00:51:55,596
Speaker 3: most important things in music, I don't think there musical things.

988
00:51:56,036 --> 00:51:58,636
Speaker 3: I think that human things. I think courage and trust

989
00:51:58,676 --> 00:52:03,156
Speaker 3: are too to the central pillars that are somewhat necessary

990
00:52:03,276 --> 00:52:05,716
Speaker 3: to make a thing a tool. It makes something interesting

991
00:52:06,516 --> 00:52:09,836
Speaker 3: to me. It's hard to say where where these things

992
00:52:09,876 --> 00:52:12,196
Speaker 3: come from. I think everyone needs a champion in different ways,

993
00:52:12,196 --> 00:52:15,076
Speaker 3: in different parts of their journey. Everyone needs a person

994
00:52:15,156 --> 00:52:18,036
Speaker 3: to reflect them back at themselves in a certain way,

995
00:52:18,116 --> 00:52:20,236
Speaker 3: in some form and say, hey, this thing that you

996
00:52:20,396 --> 00:52:23,596
Speaker 3: are doing is interesting to me. I can think of

997
00:52:23,676 --> 00:52:26,116
Speaker 3: people along my journey, whether it's my mother, whether it's

998
00:52:26,156 --> 00:52:30,116
Speaker 3: Quincy Jones or Herbie Hancock, or just peers of mine,

999
00:52:30,156 --> 00:52:32,876
Speaker 3: friends of mine who notice something about what I'm doing

1000
00:52:33,036 --> 00:52:34,676
Speaker 3: in a moment where I don't have that trust and

1001
00:52:34,756 --> 00:52:36,476
Speaker 3: belief and say you Ruin as this is special, you

1002
00:52:36,476 --> 00:52:38,916
Speaker 3: should keep doing that. And I say, oh, really, are

1003
00:52:38,956 --> 00:52:41,596
Speaker 3: you sure? And they say yeah, And there's something about

1004
00:52:42,076 --> 00:52:45,036
Speaker 3: that exchanged that reflection, which I think it really helped

1005
00:52:45,036 --> 00:52:47,116
Speaker 3: me out along my way. I don't know where my

1006
00:52:47,476 --> 00:52:51,156
Speaker 3: audacity comes from quite It probably comes partly from from

1007
00:52:51,196 --> 00:52:53,676
Speaker 3: my mom, it comes partly from my heroes, people I've

1008
00:52:53,716 --> 00:52:57,716
Speaker 3: loved over the years. I think I've always possessed a

1009
00:52:57,756 --> 00:53:01,276
Speaker 3: sort of dogged belief that something is possible, even if

1010
00:53:01,276 --> 00:53:03,676
Speaker 3: it's totally not possible, you know, for example, going to

1011
00:53:03,756 --> 00:53:05,676
Speaker 3: a key that doesn't exist. You know, these kinds of

1012
00:53:05,716 --> 00:53:09,156
Speaker 3: things that I've done in the past. You know, the

1013
00:53:09,196 --> 00:53:11,836
Speaker 3: piano is limited to twelve notes. I've written songs and

1014
00:53:11,956 --> 00:53:14,756
Speaker 3: keys that are beyond those twelve notes. And the only

1015
00:53:14,836 --> 00:53:16,596
Speaker 3: real reason I've done it is because I'm just too

1016
00:53:16,676 --> 00:53:20,236
Speaker 3: interested not to give it a try. I think that

1017
00:53:20,876 --> 00:53:24,556
Speaker 3: every time you take a risk and something interesting happens,

1018
00:53:24,836 --> 00:53:26,836
Speaker 3: you get a little bit of confidence out of that.

1019
00:53:27,036 --> 00:53:28,716
Speaker 3: I think about being on stage over the years, and

1020
00:53:29,556 --> 00:53:31,196
Speaker 3: you know, when I first stepped onto a stage, I

1021
00:53:31,276 --> 00:53:33,436
Speaker 3: you know, I was it was really it's really scary

1022
00:53:33,476 --> 00:53:34,996
Speaker 3: thing to do. You know, you stand in front of

1023
00:53:35,036 --> 00:53:37,516
Speaker 3: a thousand people, or five thousand people, or a hundred people,

1024
00:53:37,516 --> 00:53:41,876
Speaker 3: wherever it is, and you tell your story and everyone's watching,

1025
00:53:41,956 --> 00:53:44,276
Speaker 3: and if you're not used to that as a format,

1026
00:53:44,356 --> 00:53:46,156
Speaker 3: it's it's a really strange thing to do. It's a

1027
00:53:46,196 --> 00:53:49,636
Speaker 3: strange thing to subject yourself to. But what I found

1028
00:53:50,156 --> 00:53:52,716
Speaker 3: is every time I'd take a risk and I'd get

1029
00:53:52,716 --> 00:53:54,756
Speaker 3: a little bit of that reward back, I would I'd

1030
00:53:54,796 --> 00:53:57,196
Speaker 3: gain a little bit more courage for next time. And

1031
00:53:57,396 --> 00:53:59,756
Speaker 3: I think that as one thing went to another, both

1032
00:53:59,836 --> 00:54:02,076
Speaker 3: in the studio and out of the studio I really enjoyed.

1033
00:54:02,676 --> 00:54:05,436
Speaker 3: Just you just have to try stuff out. And you know,

1034
00:54:05,476 --> 00:54:06,836
Speaker 3: the worst thing that can happen in music is that

1035
00:54:06,876 --> 00:54:09,036
Speaker 3: you do something that's just not great. And we've all

1036
00:54:09,116 --> 00:54:11,156
Speaker 3: we've all made things that aren't great, you know. And

1037
00:54:12,396 --> 00:54:13,796
Speaker 3: I think, I think when I'm at my best, when

1038
00:54:13,836 --> 00:54:16,316
Speaker 3: I'm at my most open and free flowing, I'm I'm

1039
00:54:16,396 --> 00:54:19,956
Speaker 3: totally willing to to just let go and see what

1040
00:54:20,156 --> 00:54:22,476
Speaker 3: comes out. And I also know the feeling of of

1041
00:54:22,836 --> 00:54:24,636
Speaker 3: I think, is it all artis who have really doubting,

1042
00:54:25,276 --> 00:54:27,476
Speaker 3: of really doubting the thing I'm making? You know, basically

1043
00:54:27,556 --> 00:54:29,156
Speaker 3: every single thing I make, At a certain point, I'll

1044
00:54:29,156 --> 00:54:30,996
Speaker 3: be like, oh, I don't know about this. I don't know,

1045
00:54:31,116 --> 00:54:33,756
Speaker 3: is this really worth completing? It doesn't feel like it

1046
00:54:33,796 --> 00:54:35,996
Speaker 3: tells the whole story, or it feels like it tells

1047
00:54:36,036 --> 00:54:38,876
Speaker 3: too much of the story, or you know, is this

1048
00:54:39,036 --> 00:54:40,676
Speaker 3: interesting enough? I think it is something I've often come

1049
00:54:40,756 --> 00:54:44,836
Speaker 3: up against myself, or or is this is this too much?

1050
00:54:44,956 --> 00:54:47,596
Speaker 3: You know? Have I have I gone too far? There

1051
00:54:47,636 --> 00:54:50,676
Speaker 3: aren't really any guidelines around this stuff, Like, there are

1052
00:54:50,676 --> 00:54:54,036
Speaker 3: people whose taste we can align with, but but ultimately,

1053
00:54:54,076 --> 00:54:55,836
Speaker 3: as an artist, you have to find those lines for yourself.

1054
00:54:55,876 --> 00:54:58,756
Speaker 3: I think I've I have deliberately put myself in situations

1055
00:54:59,556 --> 00:55:02,596
Speaker 3: creatively where I out well be uncomfortable and I won't

1056
00:55:02,636 --> 00:55:03,916
Speaker 3: know what's going to happen next, and I have to

1057
00:55:03,916 --> 00:55:06,036
Speaker 3: find a solution. I think about collaborations like that too.

1058
00:55:06,116 --> 00:55:08,756
Speaker 3: I've I've been in the room with musicians who I

1059
00:55:08,796 --> 00:55:12,276
Speaker 3: respect greatly and who I've been trying to build some

1060
00:55:12,316 --> 00:55:13,916
Speaker 3: kind of musical bridge with, and you know, sometimes it

1061
00:55:13,996 --> 00:55:16,116
Speaker 3: works and sometimes it doesn't, but there's always an interesting

1062
00:55:16,156 --> 00:55:18,716
Speaker 3: lesson to learn. I think that I think that trust

1063
00:55:18,796 --> 00:55:22,476
Speaker 3: comes from not being afraid to make a mistake. I

1064
00:55:22,516 --> 00:55:25,876
Speaker 3: think that there's nothing that prevents creativity more effectively than

1065
00:55:25,916 --> 00:55:28,556
Speaker 3: the fear of making a mistake. That's that's the ultimate

1066
00:55:28,756 --> 00:55:31,956
Speaker 3: death nail for you being opened and you being you know,

1067
00:55:32,156 --> 00:55:34,156
Speaker 3: And I experienced this all the time, and I think

1068
00:55:34,236 --> 00:55:38,036
Speaker 3: my job as an artist is to keep on maintaining

1069
00:55:38,036 --> 00:55:40,636
Speaker 3: those strategies that flip you out of those kind of

1070
00:55:40,716 --> 00:55:44,996
Speaker 3: fear directions and think, well, you know, I can take

1071
00:55:45,036 --> 00:55:47,836
Speaker 3: confidence in my in my risk going through this challenge.

1072
00:55:48,436 --> 00:55:51,156
Speaker 3: And at this point I've done so many kind of

1073
00:55:51,276 --> 00:55:53,996
Speaker 3: unruly things musically that I do have a sense of

1074
00:55:54,236 --> 00:55:55,036
Speaker 3: faith in myself.

1075
00:55:55,276 --> 00:55:57,956
Speaker 5: People don't talk a lot about your lyrics, mainly because

1076
00:55:58,356 --> 00:56:02,876
Speaker 5: I think you're known so much for your incredible music vocabulary.

1077
00:56:03,836 --> 00:56:05,236
Speaker 5: Has your lyric writing.

1078
00:56:05,076 --> 00:56:09,796
Speaker 3: Changed, Yes, it has, I think in a sense, I

1079
00:56:09,876 --> 00:56:13,596
Speaker 3: still feel like I'm learning the ropes. I'm someone who

1080
00:56:13,676 --> 00:56:17,316
Speaker 3: loves words and description and language equally as much as

1081
00:56:17,356 --> 00:56:20,556
Speaker 3: I love music. I could happily talk about my experience

1082
00:56:20,636 --> 00:56:23,556
Speaker 3: of the world in as much length as I play

1083
00:56:23,636 --> 00:56:26,276
Speaker 3: about my experience of the world. The two worlds have

1084
00:56:26,396 --> 00:56:29,236
Speaker 3: existed somewhat separately for me for a lot of my life,

1085
00:56:29,316 --> 00:56:32,316
Speaker 3: Like I because the music that I've created in the

1086
00:56:32,356 --> 00:56:37,356
Speaker 3: past contains so much kind of depth and contour and color.

1087
00:56:38,356 --> 00:56:41,556
Speaker 3: My sense over the years has often been to not

1088
00:56:41,756 --> 00:56:44,836
Speaker 3: try to make the lyrics too too much either, because

1089
00:56:44,836 --> 00:56:47,476
Speaker 3: otherwise it's just too much information. So sometimes my lyrics

1090
00:56:47,516 --> 00:56:51,756
Speaker 3: have been relatively simple in comparison to the music. But

1091
00:56:51,836 --> 00:56:55,196
Speaker 3: as someone who just loves the whole spirit of language

1092
00:56:55,276 --> 00:56:59,356
Speaker 3: within poetry and words and resonance and the mind that

1093
00:56:59,636 --> 00:57:01,916
Speaker 3: it's something that I think I'm with this album. I

1094
00:57:01,916 --> 00:57:05,116
Speaker 3: think there's a particular element of that being explored. I knew,

1095
00:57:05,156 --> 00:57:09,676
Speaker 3: but I'm always curious how those two worlds can converge,

1096
00:57:09,676 --> 00:57:11,476
Speaker 3: and I've always blown away when a songwriter can do

1097
00:57:11,556 --> 00:57:14,436
Speaker 3: both things really well. Well.

1098
00:57:14,636 --> 00:57:17,076
Speaker 5: Let me give you an example, and it's the last

1099
00:57:17,116 --> 00:57:21,076
Speaker 5: song on your album, which is very different, and after

1100
00:57:21,156 --> 00:57:24,796
Speaker 5: a beautiful album, it comes as such a surprise. The

1101
00:57:24,916 --> 00:57:28,516
Speaker 5: lyrics are quite different, the piano treatment is quite simple,

1102
00:57:29,996 --> 00:57:31,556
Speaker 5: and you use your voice in a way that I

1103
00:57:31,636 --> 00:57:34,876
Speaker 5: had never really heard before. Can you tell me a

1104
00:57:34,916 --> 00:57:35,716
Speaker 5: bit about that song?

1105
00:57:36,076 --> 00:57:36,396
Speaker 7: I can.

1106
00:57:36,596 --> 00:57:36,636
Speaker 9: So.

1107
00:57:36,756 --> 00:57:39,756
Speaker 3: The song's called something Heavy, and it's another one of

1108
00:57:39,796 --> 00:57:42,276
Speaker 3: these songs that I had before the album. I didn't

1109
00:57:42,276 --> 00:57:43,716
Speaker 3: know what to do with that song. It felt like

1110
00:57:43,836 --> 00:57:46,956
Speaker 3: it came from a totally different place from other songs.

1111
00:57:47,076 --> 00:57:49,596
Speaker 3: But I love that figure. I can play film the

1112
00:57:49,596 --> 00:57:54,356
Speaker 3: piano right now. It's just something I found myself one

1113
00:57:54,436 --> 00:57:55,156
Speaker 3: day really.

1114
00:57:56,556 --> 00:57:56,956
Speaker 7: Enjoying.

1115
00:58:08,516 --> 00:58:10,156
Speaker 3: As I suppose, Okay, there's a song that needs to

1116
00:58:10,196 --> 00:58:14,676
Speaker 3: be written here in some way, you know, And so

1117
00:58:14,836 --> 00:58:20,476
Speaker 3: I I started to sing a melody, and as I went,

1118
00:58:20,996 --> 00:58:23,716
Speaker 3: some things came out. So I was saying, I've been

1119
00:58:23,796 --> 00:58:31,796
Speaker 3: holding something, something kind of heavy.

1120
00:58:35,676 --> 00:58:37,676
Speaker 6: And then I had this gong.

1121
00:58:43,196 --> 00:58:44,956
Speaker 4: Doorded it on on.

1122
00:58:45,596 --> 00:58:48,636
Speaker 3: I really like that melody, and so I worked it

1123
00:58:48,716 --> 00:58:51,476
Speaker 3: through and I figured that it might be fun to say.

1124
00:58:51,716 --> 00:58:52,596
Speaker 6: So let go.

1125
00:58:54,236 --> 00:59:01,876
Speaker 3: Now, let it go now, and the end of holding

1126
00:59:01,916 --> 00:59:04,916
Speaker 3: something heavy, so so so let it go now. It's

1127
00:59:04,956 --> 00:59:07,636
Speaker 3: like a song from from an ancestor or something, and

1128
00:59:07,716 --> 00:59:09,836
Speaker 3: we all know the feeling of holding something for a

1129
00:59:09,876 --> 00:59:13,836
Speaker 3: really really long time and finally realizing I gotta I

1130
00:59:13,916 --> 00:59:15,636
Speaker 3: gotta put this down, I gotta let this go. This

1131
00:59:15,716 --> 00:59:18,836
Speaker 3: isn't serving me anymore, this is this is something big,

1132
00:59:19,636 --> 00:59:21,876
Speaker 3: and I don't need it. And there's there's a sense

1133
00:59:21,916 --> 00:59:24,676
Speaker 3: of relief about that exchange, that handoff, and there's a

1134
00:59:24,716 --> 00:59:28,476
Speaker 3: sense of grief about that handoff as well. I think that,

1135
00:59:28,596 --> 00:59:30,116
Speaker 3: you know, it's one of those songs that just kind

1136
00:59:30,156 --> 00:59:32,756
Speaker 3: of came it wrote itself a little bit. You know.

1137
00:59:32,836 --> 00:59:36,436
Speaker 3: It's like the figure was there and I became kind

1138
00:59:36,476 --> 00:59:38,596
Speaker 3: of really attached to it, and that the melody was clear,

1139
00:59:39,116 --> 01:00:01,716
Speaker 3: the chorus, I know.

1140
01:00:06,396 --> 01:00:07,916
Speaker 7: It's time to let it go.

1141
01:00:08,236 --> 01:00:11,316
Speaker 3: I knew that's how we should and so I just,

1142
01:00:11,676 --> 01:00:13,836
Speaker 3: you know, I sang it until the lyrics came through.

1143
01:00:14,396 --> 01:00:20,476
Speaker 9: And every time I feel a weird upon me, you

1144
01:00:20,676 --> 01:00:28,196
Speaker 9: hold a line to keep it onside normal life.

1145
01:00:29,396 --> 01:00:40,116
Speaker 7: You've been holding on beside me, and it's down to

1146
01:00:40,516 --> 01:00:40,916
Speaker 7: let it go.

1147
01:00:47,036 --> 01:00:47,516
Speaker 6: Let it go.

1148
01:00:53,436 --> 01:00:57,596
Speaker 3: So the song kind of came from from there. One

1149
01:00:57,636 --> 01:00:59,596
Speaker 3: thing I found on tour that I really love to

1150
01:00:59,676 --> 01:01:02,956
Speaker 3: do is belt, like use my chest voice and belt

1151
01:01:03,076 --> 01:01:06,036
Speaker 3: really loud. And I this album is such a softly

1152
01:01:06,036 --> 01:01:09,356
Speaker 3: spoken album, and I enjoyed the idea that at the

1153
01:01:09,436 --> 01:01:12,956
Speaker 3: very last minute I would really sing out. And so

1154
01:01:13,076 --> 01:01:17,676
Speaker 3: the second chorus, the second chorus of the song goes,

1155
01:01:18,996 --> 01:01:21,316
Speaker 3: and every time I build a wall around me, but

1156
01:01:21,396 --> 01:01:22,156
Speaker 3: I belt it loud.

1157
01:01:22,236 --> 01:01:25,276
Speaker 6: I'm like, every time.

1158
01:01:26,716 --> 01:01:33,236
Speaker 4: I bid walll around me, you hor alte to pull

1159
01:01:33,356 --> 01:01:34,796
Speaker 4: me back love.

1160
01:01:36,636 --> 01:01:41,196
Speaker 6: In all this time, you never start thinking of me,

1161
01:01:43,076 --> 01:01:51,756
Speaker 6: but it turns letting now.

1162
01:01:52,476 --> 01:01:55,956
Speaker 3: And that kind of catharsis was something I think the

1163
01:01:55,996 --> 01:01:59,636
Speaker 3: album needed. It's it's funny, it's all this all this

1164
01:01:59,756 --> 01:02:02,516
Speaker 3: kind of softness and consideration and warmth, and and it

1165
01:02:02,596 --> 01:02:04,476
Speaker 3: needed a burst, It needed a burst open. But I

1166
01:02:05,156 --> 01:02:06,996
Speaker 3: didn't write this song for this album. I wrote the

1167
01:02:07,036 --> 01:02:10,156
Speaker 3: song on its own right and realized, oh, actually this

1168
01:02:10,716 --> 01:02:14,916
Speaker 3: could totally work for this, for this record. And yeah,

1169
01:02:15,276 --> 01:02:17,076
Speaker 3: the style of songwriting and the start of note writing

1170
01:02:17,596 --> 01:02:19,236
Speaker 3: came from a kind of a different place, but it

1171
01:02:19,356 --> 01:02:23,036
Speaker 3: was a refreshing challenge to write from that perspective. Is

1172
01:02:23,116 --> 01:02:25,556
Speaker 3: right from a figure or an instrument. I think the

1173
01:02:25,596 --> 01:02:27,276
Speaker 3: way it was related to the rest of the album

1174
01:02:27,836 --> 01:02:30,636
Speaker 3: is that it came from my relationship with one figure

1175
01:02:30,676 --> 01:02:34,996
Speaker 3: on one instrument, and that kind of solo instrument approach

1176
01:02:35,196 --> 01:02:37,596
Speaker 3: was different from other songs I've written that begin as

1177
01:02:37,716 --> 01:02:40,116
Speaker 3: kind of sonic world, sonic environments or moods, and then

1178
01:02:40,156 --> 01:02:42,916
Speaker 3: that is what birthed the lyrics. But yeah, this just

1179
01:02:42,916 --> 01:02:44,396
Speaker 3: felt like a good old fashioned song.

1180
01:02:44,356 --> 01:02:46,236
Speaker 5: You know, thank you so much for coming in, yes,

1181
01:02:46,316 --> 01:02:47,676
Speaker 5: and just wonderful.

1182
01:02:47,276 --> 01:02:49,076
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me all right, it was great.

1183
01:02:52,596 --> 01:02:54,796
Speaker 2: In the episode description, you'll find a linked to Jacob

1184
01:02:54,836 --> 01:02:57,236
Speaker 2: car Year's latest album, The Light for Days, as well

1185
01:02:57,236 --> 01:03:00,196
Speaker 2: as a collection of his past releases. Be sure to

1186
01:03:00,236 --> 01:03:02,876
Speaker 2: check out YouTube dot com slash Broken Record podcast to

1187
01:03:02,956 --> 01:03:05,796
Speaker 2: see all of our video interviews, and be sure to

1188
01:03:05,836 --> 01:03:08,596
Speaker 2: follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record pot. You

1189
01:03:08,636 --> 01:03:11,836
Speaker 2: can follow on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is

1190
01:03:11,876 --> 01:03:14,236
Speaker 2: produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help from

1191
01:03:14,316 --> 01:03:17,636
Speaker 2: Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Holliday.

1192
01:03:18,396 --> 01:03:21,276
Speaker 2: Broken Record is production of Pushkin Industries. If you love

1193
01:03:21,356 --> 01:03:24,476
Speaker 2: this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin

1194
01:03:24,516 --> 01:03:27,756
Speaker 2: Plus Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus

1195
01:03:27,836 --> 01:03:30,596
Speaker 2: content and ad free listening for four ninety nine a month.

1196
01:03:30,796 --> 01:03:34,236
Speaker 2: Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if

1197
01:03:34,236 --> 01:03:36,276
Speaker 2: you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and

1198
01:03:36,356 --> 01:03:38,836
Speaker 2: review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by

1199
01:03:38,876 --> 01:03:39,436
Speaker 2: Kenny Beats.

1200
01:03:39,596 --> 01:03:40,556
Speaker 6: I'm justin Richmond.