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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 4: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 4: Hey eight, Happy New Year.

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Speaker 1: Happy New Year to you. How was your break?

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Speaker 3: It was nice, you know, but I understand a belated

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Speaker 3: happy birthday is in order for you.

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Speaker 1: The big four eight four eight.

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Speaker 4: You're a younger one.

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Speaker 3: I know.

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Speaker 1: It's all about perspective. That's not what my kids say.

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Speaker 2: They think I'm old is dirt, but yeah, I feel

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Speaker 2: not a bit older than forty seven. You know, my

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Speaker 2: birthday's December twenty eighth, and it is just such a

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Speaker 2: crap dappy time to have a birthday.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, how do you navigate that.

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Speaker 3: Do you get like birthday presents and Christmas presents at

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Speaker 3: the same time?

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Speaker 4: How does it work?

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Speaker 1: Do I do?

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Speaker 2: And you know, frequently people are unavailable to hang out.

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Speaker 2: When I was younger, I didn't get a lot of

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Speaker 2: birthday presents or anything from my friends, even though we

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Speaker 2: would get presents for each other throughout the year. Everybody

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Speaker 2: was saving money for New Year's or they were broke

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Speaker 2: from the holidays before. So it's a complicated birthday, but

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Speaker 2: I've learned how to embrace it because sometimes people get

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Speaker 2: the post holiday blue, you know, there's nothing to look

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Speaker 2: forward to, and here I am.

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Speaker 1: I have my birthday coming up. But it's usually pretty quiet, so.

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Speaker 4: It's kind of anti climactic.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Christmas and and next thing, you know, here's

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Speaker 3: the birthday.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's always nice and I always end up

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Speaker 1: spending it with my family. So that's what I did

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Speaker 1: this year. You know, around my birthday, it's usually a

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Speaker 1: really chilly sixty fifty five degrees sixty degrees.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it is jacket weather for me. So I

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Speaker 2: was struggling fully struggling to keep warm.

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Speaker 3: Oh geeze, Yeah, that's balmy weather in the wintertime. Here

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Speaker 3: in Colorado springs.

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Speaker 4: Were shorts right at that temperatures. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, Well it was a very nice break, but I

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Speaker 2: will say it was odd to not see you during

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Speaker 2: those couple of weeks, and I almost felt like turning

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Speaker 2: to my one of my twelve year olds and saying,

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Speaker 2: let's talk about this story. Let me set the scene,

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Speaker 2: and they stop me. When I get the podcast voice.

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Speaker 2: They both say, please be quiet, this is not the

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Speaker 2: right audience.

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Speaker 4: No, that's hilarious.

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Speaker 2: So I'm really excited to jump into this next story.

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Speaker 2: So let me set the scene. So we are in

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixties Nashville, Tennessee. I've been through Nashville, and I

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Speaker 2: think I might have spent a day in Nashville, but

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Speaker 2: I know not very much about Nashville.

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Speaker 1: Have you any worked any cases in Nashville before?

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Speaker 3: I haven't worked a case. Shortly after I retired, shortly

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Speaker 3: after DeAngelo, the Golden State Killer was caught, I was

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Speaker 3: at the second Crime con ever, and that was held

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Speaker 3: in Nashville. So that was the first time I'd ever

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Speaker 3: been there. And what I saw in Nashville was pretty cool.

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Speaker 3: I really liked it.

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Speaker 2: Of course, it's known for its music scene, and this

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Speaker 2: time period in the sixties was no exception. This is

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Speaker 2: the Nashville is really entrenched in country music.

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Speaker 1: It's not as big of a city as it is now.

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Speaker 2: It's got a little bit more of a small town

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Speaker 2: feel about it. There are you know, civil rights sit

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Speaker 2: ins happened. Again, this is the sixties, so you have

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Speaker 2: a lot of shifting in culture. So Nashville was a

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Speaker 2: city that was growing, but it's still had a little

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Speaker 2: bit of an intimate feeling, not out of control crime.

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Speaker 2: So what happened with these young women in this crime

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Speaker 2: spree was pretty dramatic for the city. So I'll be

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Speaker 2: interested to see if you think we had a serial

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Speaker 2: killer working in Nashville in this area in the sixties,

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Speaker 2: or if these are unconnected.

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Speaker 1: And this is a new territory for me.

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Speaker 2: I have never tried to connect different murders to one person,

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Speaker 2: but I think you might have some experience with that,

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Speaker 2: so maybe you can help me out.

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Speaker 4: I've done a little bit of that over the decade.

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Speaker 4: So let's let's hear it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So this is the first victim, and let's just

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Speaker 2: operate right now with the assumption that these are all connected.

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Speaker 2: So when I say first victim, I mean in a

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Speaker 2: series that we think is a real series. So this

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Speaker 2: first thing happened Ben's July fifteenth of nineteen sixty five.

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Speaker 2: And it's an eleven year old girl. Her name is

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Speaker 2: Wanda June.

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Speaker 1: Anderson, and I'll just start calling her Wanda, and she was.

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Speaker 2: Babysitting for her six nieces and nephews at her sister's

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Speaker 2: two room apartment.

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Speaker 1: Six babysitting.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I can't even hardly trust my kids right now,

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Speaker 2: and they're twelve.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, Ella and Quinn. I know they listen to this podcast,

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Speaker 1: but I.

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Speaker 2: Don't trust you alone barely, let alone babysitting that many kids.

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Speaker 1: This seems like something that.

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Speaker 2: People feel like they have to do, but a little

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Speaker 2: bit of a risky thing.

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Speaker 4: No, for sure. Know she was Wanda's eleven years old.

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Speaker 2: You said eleven years old, and she's in charge of

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Speaker 2: six nieces and nephews while the family's gone.

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Speaker 4: And is the family living an apartment?

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Speaker 2: They are, it's a two room apartment. It's a little bit.

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Speaker 2: We had to do some pretty big research to understand this.

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Speaker 2: It's a boarding house and within the boarding house is

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Speaker 2: an apartment where you walk down the stairs and there's

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Speaker 2: a main door. So it's a ground level apartment with

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Speaker 2: a little window and it's just two rooms and she

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Speaker 2: doesn't live there, she is visiting and she's babysitting.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So that's seven kids in essence inside this ground

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Speaker 3: level two bedroom apartment and.

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Speaker 2: A boarding house, which you would assume means you've got

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Speaker 2: borders there, You've got people coming in and out. There's

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Speaker 2: a door inside the boarding house that is locked that

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Speaker 2: you know, somebody presumably only has one key to access

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Speaker 2: this apartment. But it is ground level, so it seems

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Speaker 2: to be The two entry areas are a window that

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Speaker 2: you can access from the ground floor to get in,

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Speaker 2: and then this door inside the boarding house, and then

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Speaker 2: there is a back door, but it's unclear if it's

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Speaker 2: a back door to the entire boarding house or one

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Speaker 2: to the apartment. Whatever the story is. There are multiple

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Speaker 2: entry ways that you can use, and there.

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Speaker 3: Is no door from Wanda's apartment out to the yard

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Speaker 3: or the street. It's all in. The doors are only

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Speaker 3: inside the boarding house that go into the apartments.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's a little confusing, and you know, I've looked

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Speaker 2: at the photos and Maren our researcher has looked through everything,

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Speaker 2: and I think really what it boils down to is

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Speaker 2: that if you are a border, you have obviously pretty

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Speaker 2: easy access if you can manage to get into the apartment.

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Speaker 2: If you are not a border and just want to

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Speaker 2: get in, you can pop the window or find a

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Speaker 2: way through. We're not on the fourth floor or anything,

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Speaker 2: so the access is there for someone.

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Speaker 3: And is there any information in terms of how full

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Speaker 3: this boarding house is this evening?

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Speaker 1: No, we don't know about this evening.

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Speaker 2: Now there are borders, but not that I could find

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Speaker 2: about how many borders there are. Okay, continuing on, We've

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Speaker 2: got this two bedroom apartment on the lower floor multi

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Speaker 2: story boarding house. This is Wanda's older sister's apartment. So

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Speaker 2: she's babysitting her nieces and nephews. So she goes into

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Speaker 2: the bed where her sister normally would be sleeping with

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Speaker 2: her sister's out, so she climbs into the bed and

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Speaker 2: goes to sleep, and she is attacked in the apartment

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Speaker 2: by an intruder and her sister and her sister's husband,

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Speaker 2: Kay and Howard told police that the door leading down

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Speaker 2: to the apartment was wide open, so the one that

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Speaker 2: is inside the boarding house is wide open, and when

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Speaker 2: they got home, the back door was wide open as well.

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Speaker 2: So I think that when they say backdoor they must

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Speaker 2: mean the back door to the entire boarding house. With

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Speaker 2: boarding houses, I will say that in the sixties, it's

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Speaker 2: unlikely they locked it. I know that you're thinking in

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Speaker 2: your head there's a suspect within the boarding house, which

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Speaker 2: could be the case, but I don't think anybody is

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Speaker 2: going to have a problem getting into any of these apartments, right.

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Speaker 3: And you know, it's very informative that there is a

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Speaker 3: window that can be seen from the outside. So a

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Speaker 3: prowler could be going around the boarding house, possibly looking

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Speaker 3: into this apartment and seeing that it's full of young kids.

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Speaker 3: Doesn't necessarily have to be inside the boarding house to know, Hey,

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Speaker 3: there's kids in this apartment and there's no adults present.

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Speaker 3: Could possibly determine that from the outside.

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Speaker 1: Correct. So let me show you a photo. This will

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Speaker 1: be helpful. Let me show you a photo of the

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Speaker 1: outside of the house. And I'm pointing down to Wanda's sister.

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Speaker 2: You could see her barely down at the bottom is

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Speaker 2: standing where the apartment is.

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Speaker 1: And you see that little window there, Yeah, that's.

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Speaker 2: Where the apartment is for a perspective, she's probably my

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Speaker 2: height five five five four or something like that. So

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Speaker 2: anybody any taller do you see a problem getting in

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Speaker 2: or out? It actually doesn't even sound like they use

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Speaker 2: the window. I think they use the door.

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Speaker 3: Well in terms of yeah, getting into this apartment going

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Speaker 3: through the door, as that seems obvious.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And police said, we think it's the accesses through

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Speaker 2: the front door. And my point in showing you this

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Speaker 2: photo is that there's no security here. Anybody could have

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Speaker 2: walked in it looks like and gone downstairs, and that's

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Speaker 2: what the police say happened. They believe that the intruder

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Speaker 2: came in through the front door, went down, accessed the apartment,

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Speaker 2: and then went out the back.

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Speaker 1: Now, let me show you the back. This is the

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Speaker 1: back porch, and I don't.

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Speaker 2: Know if you could see perspective, it looks like ground level,

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Speaker 2: So maybe this is the back porch quote unquote, which

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Speaker 2: is very tiny of this ground floor apartment. Either way,

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Speaker 2: it just doesn't sound like it would be a problem

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Speaker 2: for somebody to get in and get out of this No.

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Speaker 3: Especially if these doors are unlocked, and the rear of

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Speaker 3: this boarding house it looks like it's open space behind it.

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Speaker 3: At least it's a fairly sizable backyard. What time this

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Speaker 3: is happening in the middle of the night, right.

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Speaker 1: Right, It's happening in the middle of the night.

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Speaker 3: So the chances of anybody being out and seeing, you know,

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Speaker 3: somebody emerge from the back of this boarding house is

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Speaker 3: probably limited.

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Speaker 1: And we don't know the exact time it happened.

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Speaker 2: We do know that Wanda's sister and her husband came

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Speaker 2: home at twelve thirty am, and so this is when

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Speaker 2: they discovered everything. Time when they left in the early

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Speaker 2: evening and came home, this is what happened. Let me

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Speaker 2: tell you what happens with Wanda, and then I'll show

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Speaker 2: you the scene. So police believe the intruder first beat

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Speaker 2: her while she was in the bed, hitting her on

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Speaker 2: the head with an object like a pipe or a

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Speaker 2: hammer that he took with him.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know if he brought it with him.

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Speaker 2: There is no mention that anything was missing from the husband,

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Speaker 2: so we're presuming that he brought this weapon with him.

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Speaker 2: So the investigator said that she had been hit at

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Speaker 2: least four times with a great amount of force, with

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Speaker 2: hits so severe that any one of the four would

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Speaker 2: have killed her.

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Speaker 1: That's how severe this was.

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Speaker 2: He raped her in the bed and then carried her outside,

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Speaker 2: raped her again, choked her with a piece of her

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Speaker 2: own pajamas, and then left her to die. Very violent,

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Speaker 2: I mean, one of the most violent things I've heard.

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Speaker 2: And this all for an eleven year old who's in

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Speaker 2: an apartment where I think you would have to be

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Speaker 2: watching and knowing what's happening based on the way this

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Speaker 2: apartment looked to me, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: We don't have a photo of the front of this

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Speaker 3: boarding house the street side.

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Speaker 2: Now this is all we have for this photo, okay,

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Speaker 2: And then for perspective, this is the bed where it happened.

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Speaker 2: Looks like a little full size bed. Low ceilings, I mean,

248
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Speaker 2: this is almost like a basement apartment that's not an abasement.

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Speaker 2: Low ceilings, and a pretty small window.

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Speaker 3: So I'm looking at the bedroom where Wanda was attacked,

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Speaker 3: and I'm seeing a window right next to the bed.

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Speaker 3: So there's another window that's providing view into this apartment.

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Speaker 3: And at least at the time this photo's taken, it

254
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Speaker 3: looks like that window is open.

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Speaker 2: It could be, and as you know, the investigators might

256
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Speaker 2: have opened it. I still think they're pretty convinced that

257
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Speaker 2: someone came in and came out through the door, the

258
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Speaker 2: easiest passage. But this is such a violent scene, so

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Speaker 2: let me tell you some of these details.

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Speaker 1: I know I already told you a little bit.

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Speaker 2: But the forensics that they found there were blood stains

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Speaker 2: on the bed sheets of course where Wanda had been sleeping.

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Speaker 2: There was blood splatter on the nearby wall in the ceiling,

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Speaker 2: and then later they found some of Wanda's bone fragments

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Speaker 2: embedded in the bedroom wall.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's.

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Speaker 3: Force embedded in the bedroom wall. I would suspect that

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Speaker 3: these bone fragments are adhering to the bedroom wall just

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Speaker 3: from the tissue the blood drying. Was there any impact

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Speaker 3: to the wall by the weapon.

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Speaker 1: Itself not, that's noted here.

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Speaker 3: Now, Okay, you know, I do not see bone fragments

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Speaker 3: flying off from let's say, cast off off of a

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00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,839
Speaker 3: pipe or whatever the murder weapon was with such force

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Speaker 3: that they would embed into the wall. I think they

276
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Speaker 3: adhered to the wall just due to the tissue and

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Speaker 3: blood and maybe brain matter that the bone fragments had.

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Speaker 3: All the blows are to Wanda's head.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like it.

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Speaker 2: I mean it says four to her head, and she

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Speaker 2: didn't die immediately. They found her on the weeded area

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Speaker 2: where I showed you her sister's standing, which is down here.

283
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,319
Speaker 2: They found her on the side of the apartment outside.

284
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Speaker 2: She died two days later at the hospital. So I

285
00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:13,800
Speaker 2: can't believe she sustained four potentially fatal blows and died

286
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:14,600
Speaker 2: two days later.

287
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Speaker 3: It is interesting though, that the attacker goes in inflicts

288
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Speaker 3: the four blows in the bed, and you said she

289
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Speaker 3: was sexually assaulted in that bed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, inside and outside and then.

291
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Speaker 3: At risk to himself. You know, it has to carry

292
00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:35,520
Speaker 3: her outside. And so what is causing the offender to

293
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,560
Speaker 3: move her out of a room in which they are isolated.

294
00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,640
Speaker 3: You know, I would imagine there's nobody else in that room.

295
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,280
Speaker 3: He's feeling comfortable in that room. He attacks her, He

296
00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:48,800
Speaker 3: sectually assaults her, but now he's pulling her out and

297
00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,120
Speaker 3: attacking her again, sectually assaulting her again.

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Speaker 4: Something caused him to do that? You know what?

299
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Speaker 3: Did he hear some of the other kids start to

300
00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,400
Speaker 3: stir and then that spooked him and he wasn't done

301
00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,440
Speaker 3: with what he wanted to do with Wanda. Did somebody

302
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,600
Speaker 3: in the boarding house happened to come home and he

303
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,720
Speaker 3: heard them walking down the hallway. To me, this sounds

304
00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:10,600
Speaker 3: like there's an interruption to this.

305
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,040
Speaker 1: Attack, so I think you're probably right.

306
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,920
Speaker 2: The neighbors and whoever was in neighbors next door in

307
00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,280
Speaker 2: the boarding house said they did hear something that might

308
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,600
Speaker 2: have been a struggle around midnight, but nobody did anything.

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00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:28,640
Speaker 2: Nobody called the police, nobody investigated. The six children who

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Speaker 2: were sleeping in the other room didn't hear a thing,

311
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Speaker 2: never heard a thing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I find that hard to believe.

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Speaker 2: I guess if with a couple of strong blows you've

314
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Speaker 2: completely incapacitated someone and they're not going to make a noise.

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Speaker 1: But in a case.

316
00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,800
Speaker 2: That's we're getting ready to talk to someone was killed

317
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Speaker 2: in bed next to someone and the witness didn't hear

318
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Speaker 2: a thing either. So I guess I am thinking that

319
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Speaker 2: when you're killing someone, it's louder than it potentially has

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Speaker 2: to be.

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Speaker 3: Well, he might be purposely choosing to use the bludgeoning

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Speaker 3: on a young girl like this. There isn't any threat

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Speaker 3: to himself about a struggle. The biggest threat that he

324
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:13,040
Speaker 3: has is her getting loud and screaming, and so by

325
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Speaker 3: choosing bludgeoning. These blows sound from the very beginning that

326
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,680
Speaker 3: these are homicidal level blows that he's choosing to start out.

327
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Speaker 3: He's not just trying to gain control of Wanda. He

328
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,880
Speaker 3: is trying to completely incapacitate her, whether it is to

329
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,400
Speaker 3: render her unconscious right away or to kill her right away.

330
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Speaker 3: He does not want her to get loud because if

331
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Speaker 3: he has six other kids, if he's aware there's six

332
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,880
Speaker 3: other kids in this apartment and they all start getting loud,

333
00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,960
Speaker 3: then he's in trouble and he's going to have to

334
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,680
Speaker 3: abandon the attack and not get out of this attack

335
00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:53,000
Speaker 3: what he wants. He's going into this apartment with intention.

336
00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,760
Speaker 3: He is going in there to sexually assault this eleven

337
00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,920
Speaker 3: year old girl, and he is making the weapon and

338
00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:06,719
Speaker 3: utilizing in a way that he feels is best employed

339
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:11,120
Speaker 3: to accomplish this attack in this particular crime scene.

340
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Speaker 2: Intention was where I was heading next because the police investigators,

341
00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,800
Speaker 2: after speaking to the neighbors, after speaking to the sister,

342
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,680
Speaker 2: the sister and the sister's husband, said I think this

343
00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,399
Speaker 2: is someone who knew the boarding house, who knew the apartment.

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Speaker 2: How could somebody come in and no one had seen

345
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,920
Speaker 2: this person. They believed it was someone within the boarding house,

346
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,159
Speaker 2: but they didn't have a specific suspect in mind. The

347
00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,439
Speaker 2: police were split over whether or not this was a

348
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,040
Speaker 2: spontaneous act, you know, a crime of convenience. Someone just

349
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,080
Speaker 2: saw her maybe going into the apartment, grabbed a weapon

350
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,959
Speaker 2: and decided that this was something they could take advantage of,

351
00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:53,119
Speaker 2: or if this was planned out, someone was stalking. You know,

352
00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,440
Speaker 2: there's trees, there's all kinds of places for someone to

353
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,159
Speaker 2: hide into the night and had been watching the family

354
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Speaker 2: and saw the adults leave and took advantage of that.

355
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Speaker 1: So what do you think you're saying you think that

356
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:04,040
Speaker 1: this was planned.

357
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,160
Speaker 3: Well, at the moment that the offender enters this apartment,

358
00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:13,320
Speaker 3: it is planned. Now, what I don't know is when

359
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:17,160
Speaker 3: the offender chose Wanda as a victim. This is now

360
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,679
Speaker 3: getting into it's so critical that the seventy two hours

361
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,960
Speaker 3: ahead of a homicide like this is to get a timeline.

362
00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,280
Speaker 3: And even that evening was Wanda did she have the

363
00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,920
Speaker 3: six kids outside and they're all playing together, you know,

364
00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,120
Speaker 3: and the offender could have seen that and watched them

365
00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:37,679
Speaker 3: go in. So there's establishing that timeline is critical to

366
00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:42,240
Speaker 3: start figuring out well, when did the offender likely decide

367
00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:46,040
Speaker 3: that Wanda was going to become a victim. It could

368
00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,680
Speaker 3: be the prowler that night who happens to look in

369
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,119
Speaker 3: a window and sees an eleven year old girl, maybe

370
00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,239
Speaker 3: by herself in her own bedroom since there is a

371
00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:58,120
Speaker 3: window to that bedroom, and makes the decision, or he's

372
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,760
Speaker 3: been watching this boarding house lives nearby, is inside the

373
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:07,760
Speaker 3: boarding house and sees Wanda, ends up basically surveying the grounds,

374
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,200
Speaker 3: what's happening with the family, what's happening in the neighborhood,

375
00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,919
Speaker 3: and then makes a decision to go in that night.

376
00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:18,439
Speaker 2: And what gets complicated is the police start surveying the

377
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:20,919
Speaker 2: area and figure out that there are a couple of

378
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:25,720
Speaker 2: viable suspects, no one who they can definitively place at

379
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,640
Speaker 2: the scene with witnesses, but just sort of skeezy men

380
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,400
Speaker 2: who they think fit the profile for this person. One

381
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:37,240
Speaker 2: is a man named Henry Daniel Wilson, who in nineteen

382
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,960
Speaker 2: sixty six was charged and later convicted for a rape

383
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,919
Speaker 2: and assault in the attempted murder of two women. They

384
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,240
Speaker 2: couldn't place him there, but he seemed like a good

385
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,520
Speaker 2: suspect because he did live in the area, and there

386
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:53,080
Speaker 2: was a convicted child molester named Ronald Robertson who admitted

387
00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:57,080
Speaker 2: to police at one point that he killed Wanda, but

388
00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,760
Speaker 2: when they put him on a light detector test, he failed.

389
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,480
Speaker 2: And we can have the polygraph talk now or later,

390
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,040
Speaker 2: whatever you want. I mean, there's a reason why they're

391
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,040
Speaker 2: inadmissible to courd I've said that before. But is it

392
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,760
Speaker 2: helpful in this situation to know that this guy, Ronald Robertson,

393
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:15,440
Speaker 2: was asked, did you kill Wanda?

394
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:17,600
Speaker 1: He said yes, and then he failed.

395
00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,040
Speaker 3: I want to know more about that interview. You know,

396
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,639
Speaker 3: was this a properly conducted interview. Was he able to

397
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,760
Speaker 3: provide details about the attack, what he did to Wanda

398
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,640
Speaker 3: that had not been released to the public. I put

399
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,680
Speaker 3: so much more weight on those types of statements than

400
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,760
Speaker 3: I would about what this polygraph is possibly showing that

401
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:38,280
Speaker 3: he's not being truthful.

402
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,480
Speaker 4: You know, he's lying about killing Wanda.

403
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, obviously he's he's a child molester, he's a pedophile,

404
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,359
Speaker 3: you know, so he's going to be in play just

405
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,919
Speaker 3: from you know, a behavioral standpoint, But that interview is

406
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,920
Speaker 3: what's really going to be critical to assess whether or

407
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,360
Speaker 3: not he's somebody that is viable.

408
00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:58,440
Speaker 4: You know, what was the word you use. You said

409
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,360
Speaker 4: something sketchy, sketchy.

410
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,680
Speaker 1: Or that's the scientific terms.

411
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,359
Speaker 3: You know, you do have these sketchy men everywhere, and

412
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,119
Speaker 3: that's part of the complication of the investigation. And you

413
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 3: have to look at them just because they exhibit the

414
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,920
Speaker 3: behavioral characteristics of somebody who could commit this crime. Even

415
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 3: the first guy, Wilson, who was convicted, you said of

416
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:20,600
Speaker 3: two rapes of adult women.

417
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:22,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you know, even though his.

418
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:27,280
Speaker 3: Known victims are adults and wanda'sn't eleven year old girl.

419
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:32,440
Speaker 3: We see these crossover offenders. You have rapists that prefer

420
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,439
Speaker 3: to rape adult women. You have rapists that prefer to

421
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,600
Speaker 3: go after kids. But many of these guys don't care

422
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 3: what the age is.

423
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,719
Speaker 2: We've got Ronald Robertson who has said he's done it

424
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,639
Speaker 2: several times. We don't know if it was under police

425
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 2: pressure he failed this polygraph. He has pointed to a

426
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 2: friend of his name, John Donald Ferrell, who he said

427
00:21:57,960 --> 00:21:59,919
Speaker 2: actually was the one who killed Wanda.

428
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:01,720
Speaker 1: I changed my mind. I didn't do it. It was this

429
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:02,280
Speaker 1: other guy.

430
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,480
Speaker 2: I heard this man Ferrell, confessing to the crime. I

431
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 2: actually saw him looking through the window in Wanda's direction.

432
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,439
Speaker 2: We were both there, but I didn't do anything. So

433
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:19,640
Speaker 2: there's a lot of unreliable underscored three times in this

434
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,200
Speaker 2: man's confession, and of course, for his part, John Donald

435
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:27,879
Speaker 2: Ferrell denied everything, and ultimately Robertson denied everything. So the

436
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,240
Speaker 2: police are back to square one, and they said, there's

437
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,080
Speaker 2: just not enough of anything to point to any of

438
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,200
Speaker 2: these three men being there at the time.

439
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 3: Okay, so this case kind of starts going cold, is

440
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:39,879
Speaker 3: my guess.

441
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 1: It does.

442
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,879
Speaker 2: Okay, it does, and then something happens about six months later,

443
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 2: And we should at some point talk about geographic profiling

444
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 2: because I don't know very much about it, and I

445
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:51,959
Speaker 2: don't know if that's going to come into play. You

446
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:53,680
Speaker 2: can tell me if it's going to come into play

447
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,719
Speaker 2: in this case. So this case goes cold. Wanda's family

448
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 2: is in mourning, and something happened six months later within

449
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 2: miles of the house.

450
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 1: And I mean, all of these.

451
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,680
Speaker 2: Crimes we're talking about, they are in a less than

452
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,160
Speaker 2: ten mile radius. They're in not the same neighborhoods.

453
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,360
Speaker 1: But if this is a serial killer, he's not going

454
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 1: from one end of the city to the other.

455
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 2: We're talking about not so much of a far area.

456
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,120
Speaker 2: So six months later, after Wanda was killed, about four

457
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,160
Speaker 2: am on Sunday, January ninth, this is now nineteen sixty six,

458
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 2: a fourteen year old girl named Riba Ka Green was

459
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 2: stabbed to death while she was sleeping in the bed

460
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 2: that she was sharing with her twin sister, Rita, and

461
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 2: Rita didn't hear anything, okay, so stabbed to death.

462
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 1: Same kind of age range.

463
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 2: Wanda was eleven, Riba was fourteen, attacked where.

464
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 1: She was sleeping, but stabbed.

465
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 2: And I think what you're going to say is we

466
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 2: have Wanda who was bludgeoned and strangled, now we have

467
00:23:55,440 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 2: someone who stabbed. My immediate response was, well, this is

468
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 2: a different weapon, must not be the same guy. And

469
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,119
Speaker 2: I'm gonna assume you're going to say that's incorrect.

470
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 4: Well, that is incorrect. You don't do it.

471
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,760
Speaker 3: You know, some offenders have a very specific way that

472
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,400
Speaker 3: they want to kill. They fantasize about how they want

473
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,199
Speaker 3: to kill, but at the same time, it's going to

474
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,439
Speaker 3: be based on what the circumstances of the situation permit

475
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 3: them to do. In Wanda's case, you know, the offender

476
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 3: may have only had access to a pipe or a

477
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 3: similar bludgeoning tool, whether he had brought it with him,

478
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 3: or whether he happened to just pick it up off

479
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,439
Speaker 3: the ground and went inside with it. So in in

480
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 3: Reba's case, you know, one of the things I'd want

481
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 3: to know is, did it appear the offender, you know,

482
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 3: went into the kitchen drawer and grabbed the owner's knives,

483
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 3: you know, something that was president inside the house, or

484
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 3: did the offender bring the knife with Is the offender

485
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,640
Speaker 3: typically equipped with a knife, you know, some guys carry

486
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 3: knives all the time just to do various tasks throughout

487
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 3: the day that you know, the knife is convenient to

488
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 3: have with you. What I think is a very important

489
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 3: characteristic between these two crimes is that the presence of

490
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 3: other children inside a residence is not scaring off the

491
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 3: offenders in either case. So that is a characteristic that

492
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 3: I feel starts to suggest to me that these two

493
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 3: cases could be related. There are children that are being

494
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 3: attacked while they sleep, while they are inside the residence,

495
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 3: and there are other kids present in both cases.

496
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 2: And not just kids in this case, ten other people,

497
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 2: including children. She's sleeping next to her twin sister. Now

498
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 2: here are a couple things that I want you to

499
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 2: think about. Number one, I guess these girls always slept together,

500
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 2: and they had their normal sides of the bed like

501
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 2: you might with your wife.

502
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 1: They switched that night.

503
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 2: So if someone were in fact familiar with the layout,

504
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 2: familiar enough with these girls, like a relative, and have

505
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 2: been tardre getting Rita, they were identical twins, they actually

506
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 2: might have gotten Riba unintentionally. The other adults included Rita

507
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 2: had a boyfriend who was twenty. She was fourteen. He

508
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 2: was twenty. He was a soldier. He was staying in

509
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,880
Speaker 2: the house. His name was Frederick Bishop. Before you ask,

510
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 2: police investigated him, came up with nothing, said we don't

511
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 2: think this guy is the guy who did it. But

512
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 2: coming back to that, there are other people in the house,

513
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 2: So that's a check mark in this is a serial killer.

514
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 2: One more thing and then I'll leave it to you.

515
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 2: And I've given you too many details, probably to begin

516
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 2: with no sexual assault.

517
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 3: Okay, So first Rieba versus Rita. What are the things

518
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 3: that I would be taking to look at. They're identical twins.

519
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:48,479
Speaker 3: They looked very similar.

520
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:49,439
Speaker 1: It sounds like it.

521
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 4: Yes, in terms.

522
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 3: Of where Riba was sleeping in the bed was the

523
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 3: same bed that was thatt say, pushed up against a wall,

524
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 3: and so Riba was the one that was more accessible

525
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 3: to the killer, you know, and the killer is just

526
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 3: not caring who it is. He's just, oh, here's my

527
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,640
Speaker 3: victim right here, versus I want her that's further removed

528
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 3: from the side of the bed he has access to.

529
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 3: Or is this a bed that's in the middle of

530
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 3: the room and the offender could easily have gotten to

531
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 3: either side with them being identical twins, you know, in

532
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 3: the middle of the night. You know, even if he

533
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 3: had chosen let's say, Rita versus Riba, could he really

534
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 3: differentiate them in the darkness? I at this point, I

535
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,360
Speaker 3: wouldn't put too much weight on did he go in

536
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 3: and was focused on a particular victim? For me, he

537
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 3: is going into a residence with ten people inside.

538
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 1: Of it, including adults an adult man.

539
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, So what this tells me when I talk about

540
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,479
Speaker 3: serial predators, and I would talk to law enforcement in

541
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 3: training classes about sort of how to recognize that you're

542
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 3: dealing with a serial predator, what I emphasize is that they,

543
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,439
Speaker 3: just like us, have what I call barriers to a

544
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 3: fence and let me just give you an example for

545
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 3: a series of examples, is that if you're walking in

546
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 3: a neighborhood and let's say you walk up onto a

547
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 3: lawn of somebody's house that you're not familiar with, you

548
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 3: are uncomfortable. You're afraid that that person is going to

549
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 3: yell at you. Right, that's the old man yelling at

550
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 3: the kid. It's part of our culture. We respect that privacy.

551
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 3: So imagine a peeping tom who's not only going up

552
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 3: onto a stranger's property, but is actually looking into the

553
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 3: window of a house. Could you imagine doing that yourself.

554
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 3: That offender has crossed that social barrier. He's now comfortable,

555
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 3: he's so compelled to do that act. He is now

556
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 3: crossing that barrier to go look into that window. Now,

557
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 3: imagine going into a house that you shouldn't be in

558
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 3: committing a burglary, and then taking another step up, imagine

559
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 3: going into a house and there's people inside. These predators

560
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 3: are crossing each of these social barriers to commit the offenses.

561
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 3: So the fact that this offender in Reba's case is

562
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 3: going into a house that has ten people inside, it

563
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 3: tells me this offender has done this many times before,

564
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 3: not necessarily attacking anybody, but has gone into houses and

565
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 3: is comfortable being inside somebody's house while people are sleeping.

566
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 3: Has realized he can move around inside these houses without

567
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 3: waking them up, probably standing at their bedside and watching

568
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 3: these people sleep.

569
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 4: So this is.

570
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 3: Where now this offender starts to sound much more like

571
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 3: a true predator that has evolved past these social barriers

572
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 3: that prevent most people from doing this type of crime.

573
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 2: What about the lack of a sexual assault, which seemed

574
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 2: to be the main motivation in Wanda's case, He's interrupted.

575
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 3: Maybe, yeah, that's entirely possible. Now when you start assessing

576
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 3: is it a sexually motivated crime?

577
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 4: Here?

578
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 3: You have a girl that is being stabbed in her bed.

579
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 3: The offender probably had all these ideations about how he

580
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 3: would accomplish maybe a sexual act with Reba or with

581
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 3: this particular victim, but something inside the house prevents him

582
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 3: from doing that. Maybe Rida stirred or here's something else.

583
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 3: You know, it could be an interrupted case. However, when

584
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 3: you start talking about stabbing, I don't know if you've

585
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 3: ever heard the term pierism. No, so, pickerism is a

586
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 3: It's a paraphilia in which the weapons such as a

587
00:30:54,480 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 3: knife is used sort of as penile substitution. My so

588
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 3: the offender, by the use of a stabbing weapon in

589
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 3: many ways, is getting sexual gratification. So this is one

590
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,479
Speaker 3: of those things where I would be evaluating. Okay, I

591
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 3: want to see, you know, RIBA's autopsy photos. How many

592
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 3: times was she stabbed? Is she stabbed in particular areas

593
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 3: of her body that would indicate a sexual component. There's

594
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 3: no question in my mind this is sexually motivated. This

595
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 3: isn't revenge, this isn't a vindictive type act. There's a

596
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 3: sexual component to this. He just didn't accomplish the traditional

597
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 3: sexual acts that we associate with sexual assault.

598
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: So here's what's interesting, and I want to now know

599
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 1: when I give you this information, if you've changed your mind.

600
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 2: Once the medical examiner looks at her body, it's not

601
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,719
Speaker 2: multiple stab wounds. It is one large thrust through her

602
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 2: chest and it says it's one and a half inches wide,

603
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 2: something sharp, about one and a half inches wide. Sister

604
00:31:57,960 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 2: sleeping right next to her and didn't hear a thing,

605
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 2: So what does that mean?

606
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, where she stabbed? Where does he.

607
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: Sounds like in the chest? Is what it says.

608
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 3: So a single stab wound. Does he note any type

609
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 3: of damage to her mouth, like there had been some

610
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 3: sort of smothering, some sort of preventing somebody from crying out.

611
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: No, it doesn't note that.

612
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 2: Let me tell you a couple of more details, because

613
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 2: her brother was the one who found her.

614
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: He says. His name is Neil, he's nineteen years old.

615
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 2: He said he was not sleeping soundly at all that

616
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 2: entire night he woke up. He doesn't know why he

617
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 2: woke up in the middle of the night, and he

618
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: was the first one to find Reba because Rita was

619
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 2: still asleep next to her. She was dying in the

620
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 2: pool of blood. And the sister there's a nine year

621
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 2: old sister whose name is Diana, and Diana says she

622
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 2: woke up and she saw someone standing over the bed.

623
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 2: She got so freaked out that she ran off and

624
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 2: hid in her room and didn't tell anybody about it.

625
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 2: So when Neil finds his sister, she's in the process

626
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 2: of dying.

627
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 1: The person is gone.

628
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 2: However, this is what Neil says, and I'm just going

629
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 2: to assume that he's telling the truth here. He said

630
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 2: that he saw someone walking past Riba and Rita's window

631
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 2: outside and that a person he didn't know if it

632
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 2: was a man or woman, appeared to be laughing.

633
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: We don't know if this is someone connected to the case.

634
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: It is four am, and there had been a rash

635
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 2: of burglaries, no sexual assaults, but kind of burglaries in

636
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 2: this area during this time period.

637
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: So all of these are very very vague details. But

638
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,959
Speaker 1: a house full of people and a young woman sleeping

639
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: next to her sister who is murdered with one thrust

640
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: of a knife, and the knife has been taken.

641
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 3: So this does not sound like thickorism like I was

642
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 3: talking about before.

643
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: I'm glad we talked about that.

644
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:54,959
Speaker 2: I had never heard of that, and I'm ninety nine

645
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 2: percent sure that this is going to come up again in.

646
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: Other cases we talk about. So it's going to get

647
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: it out of the way. So where do you stand

648
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: right now if we're just taking these two cases six

649
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: months apart, same age demographic. I know you said that

650
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: doesn't matter all the time, but it seems like more

651
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: of a coincidence. Houseful of people, both kids murdered, once

652
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 1: actually assaulted one not very brazen.

653
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 2: Do you think that on the face of it? Right now,

654
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 2: these seem like these could be connected.

655
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 3: Yes, I don't even lean towards them being connected. I

656
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 3: would be pursuing these cases as connected until I prove otherwise.

657
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 3: When you have an act of serial killer and cases

658
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 3: are coming in and you're evaluating are these cases related

659
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 3: or not, you're always considering both possibilities, and you investigate

660
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 3: leads based on both possibilities. But considering the circumstances between

661
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 3: these cases, the characteristics, the mo aspects of this offender,

662
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,439
Speaker 3: and possibly the signature aspects of this offender, right now,

663
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 3: these are connected cases. You have a serial predator that

664
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 3: is now preying on younger aged girls, and his preference

665
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 3: is to go into houses and attack them, and possibly

666
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,839
Speaker 3: enjoys the idea that he's able to do this type

667
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 3: of attack while other people are asleep inside that residence.

668
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: Well, one thing we didn't talk about.

669
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 2: If we assume that Neil, the older brother who's nineteen,

670
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 2: is correct and he did actually see someone at four

671
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 2: am walk by the outside of the building where his

672
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 2: sister's window was, and it was, let's say, a man

673
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 2: who he believes was laughing. Does this indicate someone with

674
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 2: some psychosis or something that's happening, and that would be

675
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 2: also in play here with whomever has killed both of

676
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 2: these two girls.

677
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 3: Just because this person walking by the window was laughing,

678
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 3: I wouldn't necessarily label that this person is exhibiting a

679
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 3: level of psychosis. The laughing is going to be just

680
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 3: something that if this kind of laughing is after the attack,

681
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 3: after he's accomplished this, he's kind of basking and what

682
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 3: he's done, he's succeeded. Or if it's prior to the attack,

683
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 3: then he is kind of chuckling to himself about what

684
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 3: he's going to do and he knows he's got the

685
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 3: confidence he can get away with it. When you have

686
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 3: a truly psychotic offender, this is your disorganized offender. And

687
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 3: in this case, I do not see a truly psychotic

688
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 3: offender having to wherewithal to get inside a house, stay silent,

689
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 3: accomplish this homicide and leave. I would expect the psychotic

690
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,879
Speaker 3: offender would have made a lot of noise, possibly would

691
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 3: have attacked both victims in the bed, if not other

692
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 3: people inside that you know, and it would be in

693
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 3: a very disorganized type of manner.

694
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 4: So I don't believe right.

695
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 3: Now that this is an offender that is a disorganized

696
00:36:58,719 --> 00:36:59,760
Speaker 3: or psychotic offender.

697
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 4: This is an offender that is.

698
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 3: Organized and has developed the skills in order to pull

699
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 3: off this type of crime.

700
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 2: Okay, so we've got a third case that I want

701
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 2: to talk to you about, which might be an outlier.

702
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:14,760
Speaker 1: We'll see what you think about Kathy Jones.

703
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 2: This is a good place to note that there's a

704
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 2: woman named Michelle Willard who did a tremendous job analyzing

705
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 2: these cases. She is sort of an online sleuth who

706
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 2: pulled this together in an article called Davidson County did

707
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 2: a serial killer stock Nashville in the sixties. She really

708
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 2: did a nice job distilling down the different points of

709
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 2: this case.

710
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 1: So one of the things.

711
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,879
Speaker 2: That I want to talk about is when we think

712
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 2: we have a serial killer and we're sort of tacking

713
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 2: on cases, what happens if the location totally changes and

714
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 2: we're outside of what seems to be this person's comfort

715
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 2: zone of breaking in and getting a glee out of

716
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 2: attacking someone with other people in the house. And that

717
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 2: is potentially what happened in Kathy Jones case. So why

718
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 2: don't we kind of frontload this and say, is it

719
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 2: unusual for somebody who seems to be really trying to

720
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 2: fit in regulated with what he believes is the fantasy

721
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 2: in his head to then go pretty far outside that fantasy.

722
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 3: It could be, but you know, offenders do many different things.

723
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 3: Are we saying outside of his comfort zone and that

724
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,439
Speaker 3: you know it's a geographic location that's far removed from

725
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 3: where Wanda Andriba's attacks occurred, or is this a completely

726
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:35,280
Speaker 3: different type of attack.

727
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 1: Let me explain it to and you could tell me.

728
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 2: And I think we need to go step by step,

729
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 2: because you know, Wanda was attacked in sixty five, six

730
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 2: months later, Reba is.

731
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 1: Attacked in early sixty six.

732
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 2: This is three years later, Okay, so three years later,

733
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 2: Round seven forty five pm on Saturday, November twenty ninth,

734
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,479
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine, there's a twelve year old girl named

735
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 2: Kathy Jones. She left her house and she headed towards

736
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 2: the roller Drome skating rink in South Nashville. Now, this

737
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 2: is around six miles away from where Wanda was and

738
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 2: around nine miles away from where Riba was. So that's

739
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:17,359
Speaker 2: why I was saying, all of these are under ten

740
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 2: miles away from each other. Kathy's prized possession was a

741
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 2: pair of white roller skates, and you know there was

742
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 2: a twenty minute walk for her to take from her

743
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 2: house to this roller rink, and she wasn't supposed to

744
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 2: walk by herself.

745
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: Her family said, you can't ever do that. So she

746
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: was supposed to go.

747
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 2: With her brothers, but her brothers sort of turned their

748
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 2: backs and she slipped away because she wanted to go

749
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 2: faster than they wanted to go. We don't know if

750
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 2: she ever made it to the roller rink because she

751
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 2: was reported missing that same night, and just a few

752
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 2: days later, on December second, her body was found in

753
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 2: a weed filled lot behind a Krispy Kream that neighbored

754
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 2: the skating rink. So so this is someone who was

755
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:06,359
Speaker 2: potentially snatched and attacked and dumped somewhere. Don't you think

756
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 2: totally differentm O and the police think that they are

757
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 2: trying to connect these three cases when this third case

758
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 2: seems a little different.

759
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 4: Do you have information as to what was done to

760
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,359
Speaker 4: Cathy in terms of how she was killed, what type

761
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 4: of sexual assault?

762
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is pretty brutal.

763
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 2: There were signs that she had been brutally raped and

764
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 2: her clothes had been used to restrain and then gag her,

765
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 2: which is similar to what happened with Wanda. She was

766
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 2: strangled with her own pajamas as well as bludgeon to death,

767
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:38,240
Speaker 2: and a funeral attendant who was preparing her body found

768
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,760
Speaker 2: that one of her socks had been stuffed down her throat.

769
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:42,720
Speaker 1: Very violent.

770
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 3: Okay, so obviously this is a sexually motivated homicide of

771
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 3: a young girl. How was she killed? You said she

772
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 3: had been strangled with her own clothes.

773
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 1: Yep, brutally raped and then strangled.

774
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 3: And Wanda, our first victim, had been strangled with her

775
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 3: pajama but.

776
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 1: Also what likely killed her was being bludgeoned to death.

777
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 1: So it was both yes.

778
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 4: Sure, sure you know.

779
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 3: But the application of the victim's own clothes as a

780
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 3: ligature that is significant in terms of what the offender

781
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 3: is doing. Because you imagine a man abducting a young

782
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 3: girl off the street. If at the time that he

783
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 3: chooses to kill this child, he can use his hands,

784
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:28,359
Speaker 3: he can just manually strangle, but to purposely choose to

785
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 3: use the child's clothing as ligature, that suggests that that

786
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 3: is something that is going into his head. Now there

787
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 3: is an mo aspect. What I have seen offenders do

788
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 3: is they will manually strangle, probably to the point of

789
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 3: death a victim, but then they apply a ligature afterwards

790
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 3: to ensure that the victim is dead, so when they

791
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 3: walk away, the ligature is still on, but there's enough

792
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 3: there to where even though the first two cases are

793
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 3: as inside a house, I think the victimology what is

794
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:08,760
Speaker 3: being done, sexually motivated crime, possibly fantasy occurring, for sure

795
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 3: that it could be related. It's just that, particularly back

796
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 3: in the sixties, there's so many of these types of

797
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 3: predators I know, and with Kathy being out there, she's

798
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 3: an absolute victim of opportunity. Anybody could have been driving

799
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 3: by and seen this girl who's isolated, and taken a

800
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 3: look around and pounced.

801
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 1: And that's what I think is the difficult thing about

802
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 1: the profiling that we're talking about, is that there are

803
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: a lot of, as you said, sicko people who would

804
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: have done terrible things. Well, let me tell you a

805
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 1: couple of other details.

806
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 2: One is that there was a thought at first for

807
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 2: investigators that she had been kept alive for several days

808
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 2: because they had searched for her throughout this area and

809
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 2: hadn't found her. And then her body was discovered someone

810
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 2: just ran across it. The original investigator debunked this and said, listen,

811
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 2: these were really high weeds. These were not I haven't

812
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 2: moded for a couple of weeks weeds. These were weeds

813
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,800
Speaker 2: that would have been something that would have been probably

814
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 2: pretty easily missed. He believed that she had been raped

815
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 2: or killed either at that location or had been dumped

816
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 2: there and had not been kept alive. However, this is

817
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 2: what's interesting to me. The coroner said she died from

818
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:26,240
Speaker 2: strangulation eruiffocation, but he found shallow cuts on her neck

819
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 2: and abdomen that police believed were caused by a dull

820
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 2: knife or a razor blade. Number one, does that mean

821
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 2: these are hesitation cuts? And number two? Could something else

822
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 2: like weeds have caused this? And the investigators just don't know.

823
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 4: If we're talking multiple shallow cuts to her neck.

824
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,280
Speaker 1: And where abdomen, neck and abdomen.

825
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,760
Speaker 3: Now we go back to what I was talking about before.

826
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 3: Are we dealing with picicorism? Are we dealing with a

827
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 3: sexual sadist who is using a knife or other sharp

828
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 3: instrument in order to repeatedly cut the victim because he

829
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 3: enjoys the torture aspect? Or are these something because I've

830
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,919
Speaker 3: seen those types of where you have a body that's

831
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 3: been drug during the disposal, and the weeds and the

832
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 3: branches do a braid or leave cuts, but not incisive

833
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 3: wounds at a knife that is being used in a

834
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 3: violent manner. There's no confusion there, you know, There's just

835
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 3: no way a pathologist would confuse that. I agree, but

836
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 3: this idea that now she has multiple cuts and I'm

837
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 3: going to assume that they were by a sharp weapon

838
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 3: on her neck, but they're not fatal as the abdomen.

839
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 3: You're dealing with a sadistic act. You are dealing with

840
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 3: a sexual statist at this point.

841
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 2: So the case does not go cold immediately. They do

842
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 2: have a viable suspect over the years. It takes nine

843
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 2: years for them to finally sort of nail this guy down.

844
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 1: His name was.

845
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 2: Edward Warner Adcocks, and he was a convicted rapist. And this,

846
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,800
Speaker 2: I think of these three cases, seems like the most

847
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 2: likely suspect of the three because he was a bus

848
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 2: driver for the skating rink that Cathy was heading to

849
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 2: to go skate, so she might have made it all

850
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 2: the way to the skating rink she encounters Edward and

851
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 2: then he takes her so he's at least could be

852
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,800
Speaker 2: in the air, and he was working that night before

853
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 2: we talk about that.

854
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 1: Let me tell you what Edward says. So he denies it.

855
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 1: At first, they put him in jail.

856
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 2: He had been serving time for sexually assaulting an eight

857
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 2: year old boy and then he had been released. When

858
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,919
Speaker 2: he was in jail, they had a jailhouse informant there

859
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 2: who said that he confessed. But what I think is

860
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 2: a little more interesting is that, you know, when he

861
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,760
Speaker 2: was finally charged with her murder, the case fell apart

862
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 2: because the only people and the only real connection were

863
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 2: several now jailhouse informants who were unreliable. So the prosecutor

864
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 2: was really leaning on these people to testify, and they

865
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 2: all recanted or they were wishy washy, or they had

866
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 2: been promised things. So there was no strong case against

867
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:06,359
Speaker 2: him except that he was a skeezy guy in the area,

868
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 2: but there was no connection otherwise.

869
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,839
Speaker 3: Oh, there's there's that term against skeezee. That's what you

870
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 3: had used earlier, skeeze guy. So prosecutors, the DA's office

871
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 3: just dropped charges.

872
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 4: You know what happens.

873
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 2: They interrogated him over and over again, and finally they

874
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 2: just said yes, he had confessed to these jailhouse informants,

875
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 2: but he had really just been bragging, and they finally

876
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 2: just said, this is not our guy. He doesn't know

877
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 2: anything about the case. The case went cold. Okay, the

878
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 2: case went cold. So now you've got three cold cases

879
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:44,800
Speaker 2: that investigators in Nashville feel like are connected between sixty

880
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 2: five and sixty nine, but they were just never able

881
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:49,240
Speaker 2: to make that connection.

882
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 4: Right.

883
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 3: So from my perspective relative to cases that we are

884
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 3: typically talking about, these three cases from the mid sixties

885
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 3: is really falling into the domain of the types of

886
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,720
Speaker 3: cases that I would work. You know, this is obviously

887
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,879
Speaker 3: an old case, So now I want to know do

888
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 3: they have evidence on this case? Did they ever arrest

889
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 3: somebody for any of these cases over the last you know,

890
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 3: fifty years.

891
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 1: Nope, could make a case against anybody.

892
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 2: They had a lot of bad guys on their radar,

893
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 2: but there just wasn't enough evidence.

894
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 1: So what I want to know from you what are

895
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 1: the options.

896
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 2: It's obviously DNA, and I know you're going to ask

897
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 2: if they've preserved any of the evidence, and I have

898
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,799
Speaker 2: not read that they've preserved any of the evidence anywhere.

899
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 2: It hasn't popped up, and there have been people who

900
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 2: have been very interested in whether they could run DNA

901
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 2: analysis to figure this out, and it doesn't sound like

902
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,840
Speaker 2: they have that type of evidence. Is it a family

903
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 2: member who knows something who is still alive.

904
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,840
Speaker 1: What are the options at this point seventy years later.

905
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 3: Well, a lot of the options are going to rely

906
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 3: on the physical evidence in these types of cases, and

907
00:47:55,840 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 3: the physical evidence if they kept anything, there's a good chance,

908
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 3: especially in Wanda's case with the sexual assault, the fact

909
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 3: that the offender took her outside the boarding house and

910
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 3: continued to sexually assault her. I bet you've got semen

911
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 3: in that case somewhere honor in her body if it

912
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 3: was collected. Unfortunately, what was happening back in the day

913
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 3: is that pathologists might collect a swab so they could

914
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 3: determine whether or not they're sperm present, and once they

915
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 3: noted that and confirmed yes, sexual assault, they would throw

916
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 3: the swab out because you couldn't do anything more with

917
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 3: it back then. And it's so frustrating today you had

918
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 3: the evidence that could solve the case today. But if

919
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 3: there's any evidence across any of these cases, then absolutely

920
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 3: it needs to be looked at and if DNA could

921
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 3: be found in any of the cases, then you identify

922
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:50,359
Speaker 3: who the source of that DNA is. The DNA can

923
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:54,240
Speaker 3: also be used to conclusively link the cases together. Going

924
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 3: back and taking a look at who was active in

925
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 3: the area, what other predators were present within, you know,

926
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 3: the region, is another possibility.

927
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 4: I've rarely seen that work.

928
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,439
Speaker 3: So I can think of in the Bay Area, one guy,

929
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 3: this Eugenie Headland. Anytime there was a homicide involving a female,

930
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 3: he was always a suspect just because he was notorious

931
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 3: in the area, and so his name appears in the

932
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:25,399
Speaker 3: case file, but he was never linked to anything more

933
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 3: than what he had previously been convicted of. And it

934
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 3: turns out back during this time frame, there's so many

935
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:35,240
Speaker 3: of these guys committing predatory crimes. None of these cases,

936
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 3: particularly as a series, suggests to me that a family

937
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:41,320
Speaker 3: member from any of the victims is involved.

938
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 1: I don't think so.

939
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 3: These have the hallmarks of the offender being in all

940
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 3: likelihood a stranger to the victim. So that even though

941
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 3: you can go back and talk to any living family

942
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 3: members and see if there's any you know, dark secrets

943
00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 3: that the family has been holding on to. Yeah, it's

944
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,919
Speaker 3: worth doing hits, just that the likelihood that that's going

945
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 3: to be successful is is low. I would be doing

946
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:09,319
Speaker 3: everything possible to track down the evidence in any of

947
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 3: these cases, and it just takes one. You know, if

948
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 3: you find evidence in one of the cases, you know,

949
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 3: you could have all three cases fall like dominoes based

950
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 3: on whatever you know, forensic testing occurred in that one case.

951
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 2: Well, one of the things that makes me sad is

952
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 2: that I don't feel good about the DNA analysis, at

953
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 2: least in the first two cases, because I don't see

954
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 2: a record of any autopsies being done on either of

955
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 2: those girls, which is bad news, don't you think.

956
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 4: Well, it is, But it's you work with what you've got.

957
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:41,439
Speaker 3: You know, we saw in the photograph of Wanda's bed,

958
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 3: you know, I saw one of the investigators dusting for fingerprints.

959
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 3: You know, was anything recovered you know from that? Did

960
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 3: they collect the sheets? Did they collect her clothing she

961
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 3: was strangled with an article of her clothing? Was that collected?

962
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 3: So it really is getting down into a what what

963
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:00,880
Speaker 3: do we have? And then going after that, and we

964
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,279
Speaker 3: can't I mean as much as I will lament, Oh,

965
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 3: if they only had done body swabs. You know, if

966
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 3: they had only done Orfus swabs and held on to it,

967
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 3: we could solve the case.

968
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 4: Well, we don't have it, so we just have to

969
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:12,399
Speaker 4: work with what we've got.

970
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 1: So what is your final verdict?

971
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 2: Pollholes, three cases seem similar, one is fairly different, but

972
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 2: not that different. Do we think that all three of

973
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:25,320
Speaker 2: these cases are connected to one killer.

974
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 3: Well, I think Wanda and Reba's case, I'm fairly confident

975
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 3: are the same offender. Kathy's case I would consider as

976
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 3: possibly being connected, just with some of the overlap in

977
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 3: terms of the victimology, the use of her own clothing

978
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 3: to strangle her, the sexually motivated crime. It's maybe I'd

979
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 3: put that confidence level at fifty percent. I think there's

980
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:47,800
Speaker 3: about fifty percent chance that, again, you had a predator

981
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:50,799
Speaker 3: that was going through who's a sadist, sees a young

982
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 3: girl who's by herself and takes advantage of a victim

983
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 3: of opportunity and is completely unrelated to the other two.

984
00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: Well, it's a very very difficult set of cases to

985
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 1: think about young girls who had bright futures and families

986
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,280
Speaker 1: that just mourn them, mourn them, and you know this happens,

987
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 1: and it scared the city. So talking about these cases,

988
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 1: it's just as another reminder for me of how vulnerable

989
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 1: young kids can be.

990
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:17,200
Speaker 2: These are the kind of cases that are the most

991
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 2: difficult for me, especially ones involving sexual assault and murder

992
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 2: of young kids. But I think it's important for me

993
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 2: as a reminder of why we talk about this, And

994
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 2: it's just that we see the same themes repeating over

995
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:35,240
Speaker 2: and over again, and the same caution and the same

996
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:39,720
Speaker 2: need for really good detective work to track these people

997
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 2: down and to preserve evidence. We say that over and

998
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 2: over again, preserve the evidence as much as we can.

999
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 2: So boy, I mean, don't you appreciate the technology we

1000
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 2: have now when I talk to you about these stories?

1001
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:50,879
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1002
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,240
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I over the course of my career,

1003
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 3: you know, I started out during the era when we

1004
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 3: didn't have a lot of the technology that we have today,

1005
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,760
Speaker 3: and then being able to go back and revisit cases

1006
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:05,880
Speaker 3: that were stymied because of the lack of technology and

1007
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 3: to see them being solved with the advances in technology.

1008
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:14,239
Speaker 3: That's absolutely huge, And it really is when you have

1009
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 3: cases like this. You know, the people say there's no

1010
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 3: such things as monsters, Well, yes there are and the

1011
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 3: guys that do this type of crime. These are true

1012
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 3: monsters and we have to do everything to find them,

1013
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:30,360
Speaker 3: whether they're active today or you know, they've stopped, but

1014
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:32,399
Speaker 3: we need to figure out who they were.

1015
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 4: If they're still alive.

1016
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:36,760
Speaker 3: Can we get families answers even if if this monster

1017
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 3: has died. And in this case, I mean I literally

1018
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 3: would talk to is this National PD? Are all three

1019
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:47,239
Speaker 3: National PD cases? Yes? Yeah, I'd love to, you know,

1020
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 3: talk with them offline and see, hey, you know what

1021
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 3: has been done? Is there anything remaining? Let's see what

1022
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:55,839
Speaker 3: we can do to identify who is responsible.

1023
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:01,320
Speaker 1: And with that case was so stressful, I need to

1024
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:02,439
Speaker 1: go for a drive. I think.

1025
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:05,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was a very difficult story to tell. But

1026
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 2: thank you for your analysis. And I had suspected that

1027
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 2: these three all were connected, and we've had some great

1028
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,359
Speaker 2: sources to work with, so thank you for confirming that

1029
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:17,280
Speaker 2: for me and I look forward to our next episode

1030
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:19,359
Speaker 2: together so I can be illuminated even more.

1031
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 4: All Right, Kate, thanks for bringing those cases to me.

1032
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,799
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

1033
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 3: Our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com,

1034
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 3: slash Buried Bones sources, Our.

1035
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 1: Senior producer is Alexis Emrosi.

1036
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:40,760
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1037
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,320
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

1038
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 4: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1039
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1040
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

1041
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1042
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 2: Buried Bones pod.

1043
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:00,360
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, the Gilded

1044
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:02,400
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decote the

1045
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now, and

1046
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 2: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's Cold Cases,

1047
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:10,839
Speaker 2: is also available now