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Speaker 1: Carl even though she was seventeen. To be frank, she

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Speaker 1: looks like she's twelve. And to see her laying in

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Speaker 1: the calvert and what had been done to her, you know,

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Speaker 1: it just it broke my heart, and you know, I

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Speaker 1: felt an obligation. I needed to figure out who did this.

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Speaker 2: The rape and murder of Carla Walker in nineteen seventy

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Speaker 2: four went unsolved for decades. It became the cold case

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Speaker 2: in Fort Worth, Texas that everyone seemed to talk about,

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Speaker 2: but no one could solve. It drew national attention when

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Speaker 2: it was featured on a crime TV show years later,

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Speaker 2: but even that didn't lead investigators to her killer. I'm

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Speaker 2: Ailan Lance Lesser, and this is America's Crime Lab. This

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Speaker 2: is Part three of the Carla Walker Case. If you

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Speaker 2: haven't listened to the previous episodes yet, go back and

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Speaker 2: listen so you can follow along to the case. I'm

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Speaker 2: here with producer Katherine Fenalosa Hey Catherine Hey Aylen. So

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Speaker 2: when we last talked, Detective Jeff Bennett and Fort Worth

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Speaker 2: had decided to test this second piece of DNA from

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Speaker 2: her dress, sort of a hail Mary, and send it

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Speaker 2: to the new lab outside of Houston. Yeap.

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Speaker 3: Detective Bennett had run out of all other options, and

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Speaker 3: both he and investigator Paul Hols are just absolutely desperate

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Speaker 3: to find out the truth of what happened to Carla.

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Speaker 3: So Jeff Bennett decides to ship parts of Carlo's dress

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Speaker 3: off to AUTH room and then he basically just has

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Speaker 3: to sit around and wait.

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Speaker 4: I remember it was July fourth, it was a Saturday morning,

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Speaker 4: about nine am. I get a phone call and I

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Speaker 4: see that it's David Middleman calling. I knew that he

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Speaker 4: had an answer. I could not answer the phone fast enough,

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Speaker 4: and David says, well, Jeff, we got a profile from

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Speaker 4: your DNA.

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Speaker 3: David says, listen, we're able to extract DNA markers from

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Speaker 3: Carlo's clothes. We've been building out the family trees, and

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Speaker 3: I have a name for you.

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Speaker 2: Who is it?

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Speaker 3: The last name is McCurley, And David says, but there's

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Speaker 3: a problem because our genealogists are saying that there is

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Speaker 3: a Glenn Samuel mccurryly. But he died in nineteen seventy two,

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Speaker 3: and Carla was murdered in nineteen seventy four. What so

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Speaker 3: it can't be him.

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Speaker 2: Unless he became a zombie. But yes, it.

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Speaker 3: Can't exactly, it can't be him. The powder blue dress

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Speaker 3: that Carla wore to the Valentine's Day dance. Her sister Cindy,

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Speaker 3: who was eighteen at the time Carla was seventeen, had

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Speaker 3: worn that dress to a dance before Carla wore it.

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Speaker 3: So there is some thought right that any DNA that

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Speaker 3: they're pulling off the dress could actually have already been

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Speaker 3: there the night that Carla's abducted.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that complicates things even more. And also just to clarify,

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Speaker 2: is this DNA semen or is it just like touched.

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Speaker 3: I think it's semen, but that's also mixed with some

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Speaker 3: of Carlo's DNA.

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Speaker 2: Of Carlo's DNA, Okay, I feel like that is very different.

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Speaker 2: If it's semen, it's not like Carla's sister wore the

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Speaker 2: dress and gave this guy a hug and then it's there.

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Speaker 2: It's like, no, something happened.

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Speaker 3: We are talking about teenagers.

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Speaker 2: True, and who knows what Carla's sister wants to say

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Speaker 2: or exactly.

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Speaker 3: And these are all like really good kids from everybody

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Speaker 3: I've talked to, But you know, it's it's high school

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Speaker 3: in the early to mid seventies. They're partying, they're having fun.

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Speaker 2: So David Middleman gave Jeff Bennett a name, but there's

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Speaker 2: this problem with it in that the name is of

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Speaker 2: someone who passed away two years before the crime exactly.

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Speaker 3: So Jeff Bennett says, David, I have a question for you.

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Speaker 3: Did Glenn Samuel mccury have any sons? And David says,

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Speaker 3: we're not at that point yet in the family tree.

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Speaker 3: Give me some time and I will call you back.

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Speaker 4: So he called back about an hour and a half later,

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Speaker 4: and he said, BINGO, Glenn Samuel McCurley had three boys.

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Speaker 2: Ooh.

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Speaker 3: Now, remember Jeff is put together a suspect list that

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Speaker 3: has eighty five people on it. Jeff is immediately scanning

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Speaker 3: down his list of suspects.

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Speaker 4: Sure enough, number twenty two on my suspect.

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Speaker 3: List Glenn Samuel McCurley Junior. Ooh, Jeff does confirm that

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Speaker 3: of the three mccury brothers, Glenn Junior was the only

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Speaker 3: one living in Texas at the time when Carla was killed.

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Speaker 3: And now he needs to focus in on Glenn.

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Speaker 4: It was a goosebump moment for me that detectives had

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Speaker 4: worked forty six years to solve this case now as

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Speaker 4: a matter to see if we could locate Glenn mccurly

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Speaker 4: if he was still alive.

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Speaker 3: It sort of blows Detective Bennett's mind when he gets

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Speaker 3: that information because for forty six years, any leads they've

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Speaker 3: gotten have led nowhere, and now not only did he

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Speaker 3: get a new lead, but he actually has a name,

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Speaker 3: like there is a suspect to now go and investigate.

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Speaker 2: Why was Glenn McCurley Junior on the list in the

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Speaker 2: first place, because that means something else was indicating it

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Speaker 2: could be him.

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Speaker 3: So he was in his thirties at the time that

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Speaker 3: Carla was abducted. And the reason he was on the

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Speaker 3: list is when remember the magazine to the gun that

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Speaker 3: they found in the parking lot of the Bowling Alley

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Speaker 3: At the time, detectives got a list of every single

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Speaker 3: person in the area that owned that type of gun,

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Speaker 3: and Glenn Samuel McCurley Junior owned a Ruger twenty two.

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Speaker 3: So back in the seventies, police interviewed every single person

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Speaker 3: in Fort Worth that owned that gun. Everyone else was

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Speaker 3: able to produce the gun. Glenn was the only person

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Speaker 3: who couldn't. He said that he had been on a

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Speaker 3: fishing tree and the gun was stolen and he just

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Speaker 3: never reported it.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's interesting. Could be a clue or a red herring.

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Speaker 3: Now, he did take a polygraph at the time and

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Speaker 3: he passed, so it was sort of like, huh not

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Speaker 3: him and the police moved on. I mean, they didn't

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Speaker 3: really have anything else to tie him to the murder.

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Speaker 2: It is also interesting that he was willing to take

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Speaker 2: the polygraph if that was sort of the gold standard

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Speaker 2: at the time. Yeah, if he did it, you would

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Speaker 2: think he wouldn't want to take the polygraph. Even if

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Speaker 2: I don't trust the polygraph, it is interesting that he

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Speaker 2: was willing to take it, probably believing that it was

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Speaker 2: an effective way to catch someone.

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Speaker 3: Lying prove his innocence.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that is interesting to me. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So now detective Bennett has a name.

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Speaker 4: So started doing some research. Located Glenn Samu McCurley still

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Speaker 4: living in Fort Worth, just a couple of miles from

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Speaker 4: the bowling alley that Carlo was abducted from. It was

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Speaker 4: in the middle of COVID, so we kind of used

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Speaker 4: that as a reason to have this. Police officers show

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Speaker 4: up at mccurley's residence.

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Speaker 3: So two detectives go out to the house. This is

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty, and they want to see does he

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Speaker 3: still live there? You know, this is forty six years later.

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Speaker 3: They have no idea and they sort of use it

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Speaker 3: being COVID as an excuse. You know, they're just going

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Speaker 3: door to door checking on residents. Do you have enough masks?

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Speaker 3: Are you okay? That type of thing.

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Speaker 2: Oh interesting, a little undercover action happening here exactly.

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Speaker 3: So they go, they knock in the door.

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Speaker 4: His his wife came to the door and we asked

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Speaker 4: him we could talk with him. She said, he's in

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Speaker 4: the backyard.

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Speaker 3: And I'm not sure if his wife called to him

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Speaker 3: in the backyard, but he comes around the side of

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Speaker 3: the house to come talk to officers.

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Speaker 4: One of the first things he did is he lifted

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Speaker 4: up his hands and he goes, I didn't do it,

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Speaker 4: and in a joking kind of manner with this officer,

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Speaker 4: and he walks up and they just start joking back

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Speaker 4: and forth and having conversation. So we knew that he

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Speaker 4: was living there.

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Speaker 3: And he's laughing.

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Speaker 2: It does strike me as a little weird that he

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Speaker 2: would come out with his hands up and make this

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Speaker 2: joke about it. Wasn't me, Like, that's just the type

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Speaker 2: of joke I think someone would make who was super

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Speaker 2: confident in themselves and not at all of afraid of police,

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Speaker 2: and not at all worried that something bigger was happening.

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Speaker 3: When the officers went there, they didn't get any signs

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Speaker 3: that there was anything amiss. I mean, they're an older couple,

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Speaker 3: they're at home, they've lived there for over fifty years.

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Speaker 3: He was a former truck driver and she used to

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Speaker 3: run the daycare at the local church. They had two

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Speaker 3: boys themselves, and really, detectives are just going on this

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Speaker 3: name that authoram provided. So the officers leave and the

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Speaker 3: mccurls have put their trash out for pickup, and the

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Speaker 3: police just, you know, look through the trash bag that's

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Speaker 3: on the curb and they take a few things, one

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Speaker 3: being a fast food drink cup and they take that

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Speaker 3: and they test the.

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Speaker 4: Straw and that profile matched the profile that we had

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Speaker 4: uploaded into kotis. It was Glenn mccurley's DNA profile.

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Speaker 2: Hang on, why are they testing the straw?

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Speaker 3: So the detectives need to confirm his identity basically to

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Speaker 3: make sure that this person is actually Glenn McCurley Junior.

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Speaker 2: And what does it mean that the DNA from the

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Speaker 2: straw matches the profile and codis.

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Speaker 3: So it means that Glenn probably had something to do

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Speaker 3: with Carla's abduction. But remember Rodney, Carla's boyfriend said there

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Speaker 3: might have been more than one man who grabbed her

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Speaker 3: from the car.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember that. So that means the investigation is

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Speaker 2: not over, not even close. So what happens now?

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Speaker 3: So Detective Bennett knows that Glenn McCurley was somehow involved

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Speaker 3: in Carla's disappearance, but he's got a figure out how

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Speaker 3: So a few days later, he and his partner Leah

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Speaker 3: go back to the mccurly house unannounced.

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Speaker 2: I got to say, going back to this person's house,

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Speaker 2: you've got some kind of connection DNA wise, I would

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Speaker 2: be pretty nervous, shaking in my boots.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he knows that this could be a major break

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Speaker 3: in the case. They go back and their intention is

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Speaker 3: to ask him to come down to the police station

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Speaker 3: where they can question him. They knock on the door again.

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Speaker 3: His wife, Judy answers the door, and they asked to

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Speaker 3: speak to Glenn, and they sort of just say we're

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Speaker 3: looking into an old cold case, and we are just

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Speaker 3: talking to everybody that had been spoken to back in

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Speaker 3: the seventies.

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Speaker 4: And she said, well, he's got liver cancer and so

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Speaker 4: he just got back from a treatment. And she said,

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Speaker 4: but I think he'll be glad to talk to you.

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Speaker 4: So we ended up doing the interview at their home.

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Speaker 3: So Judy welcomes them into the house and they sit

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Speaker 3: Jeff Bennett and his partner with Glenn at a kitchen table.

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Speaker 3: They start asking Glenn, hey, I don't know if you

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Speaker 3: remember this young girl was abducted after a dance from

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Speaker 3: the bowling Alley. And Glenn is kind of a charming guy.

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Speaker 3: He's joking around with them. He doesn't know who Carla was.

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Speaker 3: He doesn't really remember the case. His wife does. Now.

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Speaker 3: She's sitting at the dining room table off to the side,

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Speaker 3: and every swaften she's sort of chiming in and oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I remember that case. Of course, that poor girl, it

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Speaker 3: was all over the news. They never who killed her.

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Speaker 3: But you know, Glenn is very comfortable, he's relaxed, he's

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Speaker 3: chatting with the officers.

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Speaker 2: So neither of them seem super suspicious, at least in

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Speaker 2: how they're behaving.

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Speaker 3: Not at all. So Jeff Bennett asks Glenn, so where

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Speaker 3: were you that February nineteen seventy four? Where were you

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Speaker 3: that evening? And Glenn says, well, you know, I am

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Speaker 3: was probably driving my wife around because she doesn't drive,

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Speaker 3: and that's what I used to do. She ran a

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Speaker 3: daycare center out of our local church, and whenever she

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Speaker 3: had errands to run, I would drive her around.

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Speaker 4: His wife spoke up and she goes, well, no, Glenn,

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Speaker 4: don't you remember that was the week my dad was

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Speaker 4: having surgery in Midland, Texas. I was out of town

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Speaker 4: that week. And remember him looking back at her kind

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Speaker 4: of like, really.

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Speaker 3: Oh, that's the first inkling that Jeff Bennett gets that

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Speaker 3: Glenn's not so thrilled with what his wife has just said.

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Speaker 2: Do we know? It was that the story he was

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Speaker 2: giving years ago when they questioned him that he was

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Speaker 2: driving his wife around.

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Speaker 3: There were two stories about Glenn back at the time.

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Speaker 3: One that he and his wife sort of did everything

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Speaker 3: together because she didn't drive. The other thing was he

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Speaker 3: was a long haul trucker and his route was basically

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Speaker 3: from Texas to California. He was out of town for stretches.

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Speaker 3: He did actually have a little bit of a criminal history,

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Speaker 3: but it was very minor. His parents had sent him

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Speaker 3: to a boy's home when he was a teen major.

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Speaker 2: Kind of like a juvenile crime type home.

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Speaker 3: I don't know exactly why his parents sent him, other

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Speaker 3: than they found him difficult at home, so he was

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Speaker 3: sent to this boy's home. He left that boy's home

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Speaker 3: and ended up stealing a car. So he did have

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Speaker 3: a criminal record based on the car theft. But other

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Speaker 3: than that, now he's in his seventies, all of that time,

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Speaker 3: he's having zero police interaction. Right. Yeah, So Jeff and

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Speaker 3: his partner say, listen, thank you so much for answering

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Speaker 3: our questions. Everyone that we're talking to. We're just asking

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Speaker 3: if we can take what's called a buckle swab, which

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Speaker 3: is a swab of the mouth to get a fresh

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Speaker 3: DNA sample. Oh so they asked Glenn, you know, hey,

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Speaker 3: would you mind And he says, oh, you know, I

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Speaker 3: already gave one the first time the police came and

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Speaker 3: asked me. Had he and his wife Judy at the

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Speaker 3: dining room table says essentially, Glenn silly, There was no

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Speaker 3: such thing as DNA evidence in nineteen seventy four. You

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Speaker 3: couldn't have given them a sample.

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Speaker 2: Ough, she's a little beacon of truth over in the corner.

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Speaker 2: Duty is keeping it real.

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Speaker 3: Good, Judy's totally keeping it real and frankly, just like

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Speaker 3: you said, did he give a DNA sample back then? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I think we're so used to DNA being in the

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Speaker 3: conversation about things now that we forget that it's actually

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Speaker 3: fairly recent. I mean, certainly since the eighties that the

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Speaker 3: FBI's been using it, but you know, even more in

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Speaker 3: just like thinking about you know, know, like doing your

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Speaker 3: own genealogy and things like that, that's much more recent.

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Speaker 3: But we forget how recent it is. So Glenn sort

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Speaker 3: of screwed at this point, right, like, what is he

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Speaker 3: gonna say? No?

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Speaker 2: He probably should say no, but yeah, maybe also just

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Speaker 2: the social pressure with his wife there and the police,

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Speaker 2: and I mean if he did it, I mean that's

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Speaker 2: a risky thing to do, to give your DNA. But

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Speaker 2: also maybe he's like, oh, they'll fumble the evidence, or

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Speaker 2: maybe they won't actually test it, they won't get around

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Speaker 2: to it. So I also get the argument for just

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Speaker 2: trying to fly under their radar.

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Speaker 3: Also, don't forget he had been investigated before and they

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Speaker 3: didn't have anything on him, and he's already passed a

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Speaker 3: polygraph and a previous investigation back in the seventies. Are

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Speaker 3: you implicating yourself by not giving your DNA, now, you

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Speaker 3: know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think it's also interesting that he

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Speaker 2: probably doesn't know what evidence they do have, like do

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Speaker 2: they even have DNA to compare it against or are

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Speaker 2: they just collecting it? And so it's no harm to

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Speaker 2: give it if I did it. But also, I mean,

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Speaker 2: I do think it's so interesting with solving crime, how

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Speaker 2: just the social dynamics of a particular conversation can change

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Speaker 2: the trajectory of what happens. Because honestly, if Glenn McCurley

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Speaker 2: knew that they had solid DNA to compare his DNA against,

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Speaker 2: that would point to him he should not be giving

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Speaker 2: over his DNA in his mind. Obviously, I also feel

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Speaker 2: like he could easily come up with an excuse like

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Speaker 2: I'm tired of doing this. I already gave a polygraph.

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Speaker 2: I don't really trust DNA analyses. I don't like the

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Speaker 2: idea of my DNA getting out there into the system

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Speaker 2: and potentially pull it off in a compelling way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and Alen, there's another reason that Glenn might not

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Speaker 3: have been too worried that detectives were there. So over

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Speaker 3: the years there have been other suspects that police have investigated.

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Speaker 2: Oh wait, tell me about those people who are they?

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Speaker 3: Let me take a step back. There are few things

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Speaker 3: I should fill you in on. First, Carla was murdered

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Speaker 3: in February, and apparently every February, Fort Worth hosts a rodeo.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if you've ever been to one.

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Speaker 2: I actually did go to one one time, so you.

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Speaker 3: Can picture what it's like. The one in Fort Worth

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Speaker 3: is massive, and it attracts people from all over and

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Speaker 3: it's basically sort of a temporary city springs up around

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Speaker 3: the rodeo site totally for all of the horses and

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Speaker 3: the cowboys and the hand and trailers and tents, and

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Speaker 3: they're there for several weeks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean that adds a whole bunch of extra people

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Speaker 2: that could have somehow been connected to the Carla Walker case.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so a ton of people every February descend on

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Speaker 3: Fort Worth. And one year before Carla is murdered, another

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Speaker 3: young woman is abducted from her car and strangle in February.

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Speaker 3: In February, and then the same thing happens three years

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Speaker 3: after Carla's murder. Also in February, a young woman is

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Speaker 3: sexually assaulted and murdered, also around the time that this

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Speaker 3: rodeo is taking place in Fort Worth.

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Speaker 2: Oh so maybe somebody is coming into town committing these

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Speaker 2: crimes and then leaving.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so keep that in mind. And then at one

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Speaker 3: point someone actually confesses to killing Carla. Who So, this guy,

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Speaker 3: Jimmy Dean Sasser actually walks into a police station three

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Speaker 3: years after Carla's death and he says he's the killer.

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Speaker 4: And he was arrested for killing Carla.

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Speaker 3: And he's ultimately indicted by a grand jury for Carla's murder.

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Speaker 3: Whoa yeah, and he spent seven months in jail awaiting trial.

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Speaker 3: But then he has a change of heart and Jimmy

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Speaker 3: Dean comes forward and says, you know what, it was

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Speaker 3: all a lie?

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Speaker 2: What who does that?

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Speaker 3: I know, it's kind of crazy, I think as it

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Speaker 3: was preparing to go to trial, he realized what he

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Speaker 3: had done, basically falsely confess to this crime. And I

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Speaker 3: guess all along police were a little suspen vicious of

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Speaker 3: his confession because he didn't know a lot of details

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Speaker 3: about Carlo's murder. He claims that he kidnapped her and

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Speaker 3: then ended up murdering her because he was angry that

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Speaker 3: she didn't go with him willingly. But he didn't know

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Speaker 3: anything about Rodney or the attack you know that Rodney

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Speaker 3: says happened in the car, so he sort of like

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Speaker 3: leaves Rodney out of the story entirely. The only info

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Speaker 3: he knew about Carla's case was what had been printed

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Speaker 3: in the newspaper, so kind of early on, I think

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Speaker 3: police weren't totally confident, but he ended up being indicted

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Speaker 3: and jailed.

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Speaker 2: That is pretty intense because also I admittedly somewhat late

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Speaker 2: in life, only realized fully what a grand jury was

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Speaker 2: and the fact that it based is a mini trial

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Speaker 2: with a kind of jury where they decide there is

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Speaker 2: enough evidence to actually go to a real trial, which

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Speaker 2: means like they were on board to actually try to

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Speaker 2: convict this man based on evidence. So my point is

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Speaker 2: they got pretty far in the process. I mean, it

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Speaker 2: just shows yet again how you can't necessarily trust a

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Speaker 2: case just based off of a confession.

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Speaker 3: And the reason he lied was that his marriage was

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Speaker 3: falling apart and he was sad, like what the Heck,

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Speaker 3: people do very weird things and I don't understand it,

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Speaker 3: but it happens like it. It is not uncommon for

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Speaker 3: police to have a suspect who has confessed to something.

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Speaker 3: Jimmy Dean Sasser actually turned himself into a police station

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Speaker 3: saying I did it. It's not like he was even

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Speaker 3: on a suspect list.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that is strange because I get how if police

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Speaker 2: are questioning you and they're pressuring you, they want to

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Speaker 2: build their case against you, you end up just telling

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Speaker 2: them what they want to hear, almost out of social pressure.

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Speaker 2: I get that, But to go out of your way

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Speaker 2: to turn yourself in when you're not even a suspect,

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Speaker 2: that that is Honestly, I haven't heard many stories like that.

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Speaker 3: So over the years, detectives have investigated a ton of suspects,

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Speaker 3: and now Glenn Samuel McCurley Junior is the latest that

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Speaker 3: they're looking into.

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Speaker 2: So does he agree to give his DNA to Detective Bennett?

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Speaker 3: Well, he's kind of stuck between a rock and a

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Speaker 3: hard place, you know what I mean, Like he looks

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Speaker 3: guilty if he refuses, but he could incriminate himself if

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Speaker 3: he does. And ultimately he agrees to give them a

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Speaker 3: DNA sample a buckle swap.

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Speaker 2: Of his mouth. Next time on America's Crime Lab, she

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Speaker 2: asked me, you know, Jim, let me ask you a question.

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Speaker 1: What do you want?

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Speaker 2: Do you want a conviction or do you want the truth?

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Speaker 4: I said, absolutely, I want the truth.

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Speaker 1: He raised his hand and I was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: he's bleeding.

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Speaker 4: He's bleeding. I tell everybody around he's bleeding. They're like

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Speaker 4: pleading to what I said, kept it a murder. I

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Speaker 4: have to be honest with you. That was a real

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Speaker 4: surprise who had ended up being at the end of

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Speaker 4: the day.

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Speaker 2: America's Crime Labs produced by Rococo Punch for Kaleidoscope. Erica

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Speaker 2: Lance is our story editor and sound design is by

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Speaker 2: David Woji. Our producing team is Katherine Fedalosa and Jessica Albert.

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Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Kate Osborne, Mangesh Hadikadour and David

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Speaker 2: and Kristin Middleman and from iHeart Katrina Norville and Ali Perry.

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Speaker 2: Special thanks to Connell Byrne, Will Pearson, Carrie Lieberman, Nikki Etour,

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Speaker 2: Nathan Etowski, John Burbank, and the entire team at Authrum.

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Speaker 2: I'm Alan Lance Lesser thanks for listening,