WEBVTT - Partial Recovery with ft. @Jennifer_rollin

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<v Speaker 1>I won't lend my body out be Outweigh everything that

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<v Speaker 1>I'm made do. Won't spend my life trying to change.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm learning to love who I am. I get I'm strong,

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<v Speaker 1>I feel free, I know who every part of me.

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<v Speaker 1>It's beautiful and I will always out way if you

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<v Speaker 1>feel it with your hays in the air, She'll some

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<v Speaker 1>love to the mow by there. Let's say good one

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<v Speaker 1>day and time did you and die out? Welcome back

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<v Speaker 1>to Outweigh. I'm so excited because we've got Jennifer Roland

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<v Speaker 1>back on today. It's just me Amy had to step out,

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<v Speaker 1>but we're doing a part two to our original episode

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<v Speaker 1>with Jennifer where we learn all about her new amazing

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<v Speaker 1>book which is called The Inside Scoop on Eating Disorder Recovery,

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<v Speaker 1>written by herself and a colleague, Colleen Reichman. And this

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<v Speaker 1>is an awesome book. If you miss our first episode,

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<v Speaker 1>we go into depth as to why these two amazing

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<v Speaker 1>eating disorder therapists chose to write it, why they share

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<v Speaker 1>their personal stories in it, and the amazing tools within it.

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<v Speaker 1>So we're going to dive a little bit deeper into

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<v Speaker 1>that today. Thanks for being back, Jennifer. Thank you for

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<v Speaker 1>having me. So we we left off with Amy asking

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<v Speaker 1>how to give this book to somebody without offending them,

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<v Speaker 1>And I love what you said. You said that a

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<v Speaker 1>person doesn't have to have an eating disorder to benefit

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<v Speaker 1>from this book. Yeah. No, absolutely, they definitely don't. And

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<v Speaker 1>one of the reasons I feel like that's so powerful

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<v Speaker 1>is because you are not just speaking to specific things

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<v Speaker 1>that people with eating disorders or disordered eating go through,

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<v Speaker 1>but you're covering some pretty heavy, hard topics like fat

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<v Speaker 1>phobia in general. Yeah, we've talked about it on the podcast,

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<v Speaker 1>but we never know who's listened to what episode. So

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<v Speaker 1>what is fat phobia and why is that something that

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<v Speaker 1>you and Colleen decided to tackle in this book specifically. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>So we talked about fat phobia also called wait stigma

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<v Speaker 1>in the book because basically, fat phobia or wheat stigma

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<v Speaker 1>is attitudes of prejudice, stereotypes, or bias towards people in

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<v Speaker 1>larger bodies, and often it's not even recognized as like

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<v Speaker 1>a form of discrimination in our society, and it's incredibly pervasive.

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<v Speaker 1>We thought it was important because it's one of the

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<v Speaker 1>environmental factors that can contribute to eating disorders and like

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<v Speaker 1>we talked about in the other episode, there's a whole

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<v Speaker 1>bunch of factors. So it's not that fat phobia alone

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<v Speaker 1>can cause it. However, it can be the environmental trigger

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<v Speaker 1>for some people who have that underlying genetic and temperamental component.

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<v Speaker 1>I've personally really started to understand fat phobia only in

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<v Speaker 1>the last year or two. I'd say that wasn't a

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<v Speaker 1>phrase I knew. Um. You know, obviously I live in

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<v Speaker 1>a smaller body, so I've never experienced fat phobia, although

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<v Speaker 1>I have experienced fat phobia with my own beliefs because

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<v Speaker 1>so much of what we have been told about bigger bodies,

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<v Speaker 1>we just believe as true unless we break that down,

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<v Speaker 1>especially in the healthcare point of view, where we really

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<v Speaker 1>need to actually go back and look at the research

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<v Speaker 1>about b m I about health conditions and recognize that

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<v Speaker 1>every individual is entitled to the same level of care

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<v Speaker 1>and should not be discriminated on based on our own

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<v Speaker 1>stigmas about weight. So I think that was so awesome

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<v Speaker 1>for you guys to tackle, because it's still the elephant

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<v Speaker 1>in the room, I think, and I have found with

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<v Speaker 1>my own clients by kind of beginning to talk about

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<v Speaker 1>fat phobia, they're able to also reckon a bit more

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<v Speaker 1>with their own body changes. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean we

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<v Speaker 1>won't get into everything that can lead to body image

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<v Speaker 1>distress because there's a whole bunch of factors. But one

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<v Speaker 1>thing is fat phobia, right, societal fat phobia. So, for instance,

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<v Speaker 1>if we're conditioned to believe that fatness is bad or

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<v Speaker 1>weighting is bad, then we might start to see things like, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>it looks like where I do have a double chin

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<v Speaker 1>in that photo. Well that is bad because being fat

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<v Speaker 1>is bad. You know, gaining weight in certain places is

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<v Speaker 1>seen as bad. So in unpacking fat phob yet helps everyone,

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<v Speaker 1>but the people who are the most harmed by it

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<v Speaker 1>are people in larger bodies. As you mentioned, one of

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<v Speaker 1>the topics in your book is about partial recovery. We've

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<v Speaker 1>recently had on a woman who's studying to get her PhD.

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<v Speaker 1>Her name is Tara Kemp, come on and speak about

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<v Speaker 1>her own partial recovery. And I've actually never heard this phrase,

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<v Speaker 1>or I've never had a word to describe it, and

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<v Speaker 1>then I saw it in your book and I thought, Wow,

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<v Speaker 1>this must be a lot more common than I've ever realized.

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<v Speaker 1>So what is partial recovery? Partial recovery is the middle

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<v Speaker 1>stages of recovery. It's where some people will actually stop

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<v Speaker 1>in their recovery and some people move forward. But basically

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<v Speaker 1>it's where you've let go of a lot of the

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<v Speaker 1>eating diswitter behaviors, but you're still kind of holding on

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<v Speaker 1>to some of them. So it looks different for everyone,

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<v Speaker 1>but basically it means you're not fully free from the

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<v Speaker 1>thoughts and from the behaviors, but you are better than

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<v Speaker 1>you were in early recovery. When you're in partial recovery,

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<v Speaker 1>do you know you're in partial recovery or do are

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of people in a stage of denial? I

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<v Speaker 1>would say it's a little bit of both. Some people

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<v Speaker 1>definitely know that they're in it, but I know for myself.

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<v Speaker 1>For instance, in my own recovery journey, mine started out

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<v Speaker 1>as being in denial where I was like, I'm good,

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like I don't have a problem anymore, and

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<v Speaker 1>instead I was very obsessed with exercise and like eating

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<v Speaker 1>clean foods. Right, So I was better than what I

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<v Speaker 1>was in the depths of the interrexia, but I was

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<v Speaker 1>still having a socially acceptable eating disorder. And what about

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<v Speaker 1>the people who have made peace with some things, but

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<v Speaker 1>they are continuously gaining weight. So I hear from a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of people is I've started to eat intuitively and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm gaining weight. When will it stop? And then they'll

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<v Speaker 1>often beat this. We often be on Instagram, so they'll

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<v Speaker 1>send the emoji that's kind of like gasping. But even

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<v Speaker 1>though it's a silly emoji, it really is showing the

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<v Speaker 1>level of despair and fear and that place where it's

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<v Speaker 1>like you're eating disorders on the left and then freedoms

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<v Speaker 1>on the right, and the person so badly wants to

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<v Speaker 1>run to freedom, but they're really being pulled towards the left.

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<v Speaker 1>How can we encourage them to keep going. Yeah, so

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<v Speaker 1>that's such a common place to be because recovery, again,

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<v Speaker 1>you're going to come upon some common speed bumps for

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<v Speaker 1>most people, especially like weight gain can be tough for

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of people in our society. So ultimately I

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<v Speaker 1>think it's about like reminding them what motivated them to

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<v Speaker 1>start recovery in the first place, like trying to build

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<v Speaker 1>on their hope of motivation. And then I also like

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<v Speaker 1>to play out the tape with people, which is similar

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<v Speaker 1>to what people do in addiction recovery, where it's like, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>so you're having yoururages to go back to your eating disorders.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's play out the tapes. Let's say you decided to

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<v Speaker 1>go on that diet that you're eating disorders telling you

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<v Speaker 1>to do, Like where would that eventually end up? Because

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<v Speaker 1>eating disorders promise these like short term highs, but they

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<v Speaker 1>lead to like long term destruction. So that's just like

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<v Speaker 1>two short strategies I might use with somebody who's feeling

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<v Speaker 1>kind of stuck and wanting to go back, And those

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<v Speaker 1>are strateg gs in your book as well, that people

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<v Speaker 1>can begin to kind of digest, even if they're not

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<v Speaker 1>working with you one on one. I think even just

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<v Speaker 1>talking about it, you know, even just saying there's this

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<v Speaker 1>murky place that is yes, you've come so far, but

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<v Speaker 1>there's a little level of stuckness and a choice point

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<v Speaker 1>here that you need to make. Which way are you

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<v Speaker 1>going to go? I've read a lot of eating disorder books,

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<v Speaker 1>and I don't know if I've ever seen it called

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<v Speaker 1>out or a reference. So I think really recognizing the

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<v Speaker 1>struggle that happens after somebody makes progress, recognizing that it's

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<v Speaker 1>not linear, that they might go back a bit before

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<v Speaker 1>they go forward is really great. I think just to

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<v Speaker 1>hear from a therapist that, hey, we see this all

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<v Speaker 1>the time, you're not broken from being stuck at this

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<v Speaker 1>hard point. You know, freedom is not just eating a

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<v Speaker 1>certain food that you didn't need before. There's so many

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<v Speaker 1>thoughts and behaviors that need to be broken down. So again,

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<v Speaker 1>it's just like to therapists sharing such interesting advice from

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<v Speaker 1>the people who hear about it the most. Yeah, And

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<v Speaker 1>I think you're right that even just having the awareness

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<v Speaker 1>would have helped me so much when I was stuck

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<v Speaker 1>in that trap. And I think that's like the first

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<v Speaker 1>step here. Well, I feel like I I've met a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of people online that have made Instagram accounts, They've

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<v Speaker 1>become influencer by way of sharing their own recovery, and

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<v Speaker 1>I think I see it chopped up a lot as

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<v Speaker 1>like good days and bad days, And I don't believe

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<v Speaker 1>in that in general when it comes to anything, I

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<v Speaker 1>think everything is kind of can be gray. But I

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<v Speaker 1>think to recognize for anybody when you do have a

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<v Speaker 1>setback doesn't mean that you're all the way back to

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<v Speaker 1>square one, you know, is just a helpful understanding. Like

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<v Speaker 1>there's this thing called partial recovery, that is where I'm

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<v Speaker 1>at right now. Can help us really say this is

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<v Speaker 1>where I am right now And it doesn't mean that

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<v Speaker 1>just because I feel scared and shaken and thinking about

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<v Speaker 1>going back, that I will go back. I feel like

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<v Speaker 1>that's just super helpful to really expand the thinking and

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<v Speaker 1>help people not feel like failures when that eating disorder

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<v Speaker 1>voices get in loud already as it is, Yeah, a

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<v Speaker 1>hundred percent, And like Olive recovery, it's finding that gray

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<v Speaker 1>and that middle path of both acknowledging Wow, like I

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<v Speaker 1>have come far. I'm not doing those things I used

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<v Speaker 1>to do. I'm not back to square one, and like

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<v Speaker 1>there's still room for me to grow in my recovery

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<v Speaker 1>to be truly free. And your book is so not typical,

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<v Speaker 1>from the cover photo to the colors, to all of it,

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<v Speaker 1>to the tone which is super inviting and relatable and

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<v Speaker 1>almost humorous. You also include the top five regrets of

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<v Speaker 1>people who are dying towards the end of your book,

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<v Speaker 1>and I found that interesting in a lighthearted book, yet

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<v Speaker 1>at the same time I found it grounding. Can you

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<v Speaker 1>share what the top five regrets are and why you

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<v Speaker 1>decided to include something a little bit darker in a

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<v Speaker 1>book that is supposed to be about life. So the

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<v Speaker 1>top five regrets are, I wish I had the courage

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<v Speaker 1>to live a life true to myself, not the life

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<v Speaker 1>others expected of me. I wish I had it work

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<v Speaker 1>so hard. I wish I'd had the courage to express

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<v Speaker 1>my feelings. I wish I had stayed in touch with

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<v Speaker 1>my friends. And I wish I'd let myself be happier.

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<v Speaker 1>And we put out in the book. Nowhere does it

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<v Speaker 1>say I wish I had six pack abs and I

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<v Speaker 1>wish I had eaten super clean. Right. The reason why

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<v Speaker 1>I included it is because I think one important element

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<v Speaker 1>of recovery is trying to find a meaning or purpose

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<v Speaker 1>that's greater than the eating disorder. And I think this

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<v Speaker 1>just helps people to get back to what are my

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<v Speaker 1>values versus what are the eating disorders values? If that

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<v Speaker 1>makes sense, because this is just more of a reflection

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<v Speaker 1>of somebody is like authentic like self values and what

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<v Speaker 1>actually is going to matter at the end of life?

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<v Speaker 1>And you're eating disorder is going to tell you that,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, what is the most important thing is the

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<v Speaker 1>donut you ate this afternoon, right, But that's not an

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<v Speaker 1>alignment with like your true values. Again, it's so helpful

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<v Speaker 1>to get that zoomed out perspective of this is what

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<v Speaker 1>really matters. Thinking back to my own disorder days too,

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<v Speaker 1>when I ate the doughnut, like you said, like my

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<v Speaker 1>mind became the donut, Like there was nothing else of importance.

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<v Speaker 1>You could not stop me from, you know, exercising it

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<v Speaker 1>off or finding a way to compensate the next day.

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<v Speaker 1>And if somebody would have just like shaken me and

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<v Speaker 1>been like are you going to care about this in

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<v Speaker 1>a week, let alone when you're dying, I think could

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<v Speaker 1>have just been so helpful. So it's almost like it is.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not dark because we're talking about dying. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think dying is necessarily dark, but when we are talking

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<v Speaker 1>about regrets and stuff, it really is. It stops you

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<v Speaker 1>in your tracks and can get you out of that

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<v Speaker 1>fear brain that the eating disorder takes you to and

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<v Speaker 1>into your real life. What do you want in this life?

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<v Speaker 1>What matters in this moment, even though my body is

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<v Speaker 1>shaken with fear and my mind is clouded with how

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<v Speaker 1>real this and scary this all feels? So I thought

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<v Speaker 1>that was just super interesting to see it in parallel

0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:04.360
<v Speaker 1>to really anything, right, Like I mean, as a therapist,

0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:07.240
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure you help people really work through little things

0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:11.240
<v Speaker 1>all day that feel so big all the time. To

0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:15.040
<v Speaker 1>really put it in perspective of life helps us gain

0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:18.360
<v Speaker 1>some clarity and not feel so scared. Yeah, a hundred percent.

0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:21.400
<v Speaker 1>And you know this is something I even used today, Right,

0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.440
<v Speaker 1>if I'm stressed about some minor wedding detail or something,

0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:26.360
<v Speaker 1>I think to myself, you know, is this going to

0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:28.760
<v Speaker 1>matter at the end of my life? And it's just

0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.480
<v Speaker 1>a way to circle back to like my true values

0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:35.240
<v Speaker 1>and helping people live their most authentic life at the

0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:37.240
<v Speaker 1>end of the day. I love that you're bringing it

0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:40.040
<v Speaker 1>to that too, because I was there and everything just

0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:42.880
<v Speaker 1>feel so important in that moment. So in your book,

0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:46.480
<v Speaker 1>you break down a lot of myths. I really love

0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:48.600
<v Speaker 1>to see that, and I thought it would be helpful

0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:51.280
<v Speaker 1>if we could just finish off with you sharing what

0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:54.800
<v Speaker 1>your favorite myth to break down is with your clients

0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:58.200
<v Speaker 1>and how that impacts them. Yeah. So I really like

0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:00.679
<v Speaker 1>the not sick enough myth, but we act about that

0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:04.120
<v Speaker 1>a little bit before. I think. Another myth that I

0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:07.520
<v Speaker 1>love to break down is this idea that you can't

0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:10.679
<v Speaker 1>look at somebody and know what their relationship to food

0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:13.560
<v Speaker 1>is like, or even what kind of eating disorder they

0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:16.760
<v Speaker 1>struggle with, and that you can be actually quite ill

0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:19.840
<v Speaker 1>and in eating disorder and not be considered like quote

0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:24.040
<v Speaker 1>unquote underweight by b M I because the vast majority

0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:27.319
<v Speaker 1>of people with eating disorders do not appear like physically

0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:30.719
<v Speaker 1>emaciated or gaunt. But I think the media has this

0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:34.800
<v Speaker 1>glorification withinness and showing people with intorexia who look like

0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:37.640
<v Speaker 1>they're on desk store, and so people think I can't

0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:39.840
<v Speaker 1>have an eating disorder. I don't look like that. My

0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:43.200
<v Speaker 1>problem is not that serious. So helping people to realize

0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:46.520
<v Speaker 1>that it is a serious, life threatening mental illness, and

0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:48.680
<v Speaker 1>you don't have to have gone to the hospital, you

0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:50.840
<v Speaker 1>don't have to have gone to a higher level of care,

0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:54.280
<v Speaker 1>you don't have to be severely emaciated, and you can

0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:58.200
<v Speaker 1>still be really unwell and really deserving of treatment. I

0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:00.720
<v Speaker 1>love that. And when you're you're science like, when you

0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:03.600
<v Speaker 1>work through that myth, I assume they already know because

0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:05.760
<v Speaker 1>they're at your door, or I would think they know.

0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:08.600
<v Speaker 1>Maybe their family put them in. What's the first myth

0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:11.720
<v Speaker 1>for somebody who's super resistant to working with you, but

0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:15.439
<v Speaker 1>they're there anyway. Yeah, so that's a great question. I

0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:18.400
<v Speaker 1>think for people who are super resistant, honestly, I would

0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:21.600
<v Speaker 1>say I start more by building that relationship and gradually

0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:23.720
<v Speaker 1>like not even hitting them with like, hey you have

0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:26.920
<v Speaker 1>this problem, like it's a super resistant team, but building

0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:29.880
<v Speaker 1>that relationship to where they trust me, and then they're like, yeah,

0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:33.040
<v Speaker 1>so I feel a little anxious around food. But I

0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:36.120
<v Speaker 1>think I will debunk the myth I just talked about

0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:38.640
<v Speaker 1>with people who are brought in by loved ones or

0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:41.280
<v Speaker 1>people who show up at my door but are like,

0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:43.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, I don't really know that my problem is

0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:46.760
<v Speaker 1>that serious, because that's an eating disorder. Trick to keep

0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:49.640
<v Speaker 1>you sick, right is to continually tell you, actually, you're

0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:52.360
<v Speaker 1>not that bad, you don't need to recover, you can diet,

0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.520
<v Speaker 1>everything's fine. I feel like they're just some people that

0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:58.960
<v Speaker 1>that struggle forever because they can never break free from

0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:01.240
<v Speaker 1>that idea of this is fine, this is how I

0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:03.960
<v Speaker 1>like to eat, this is how I like to live.

0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:07.720
<v Speaker 1>What is the most powerful wake up call for somebody

0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:11.320
<v Speaker 1>listening that thinks I like the foods I eat. I

0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:14.440
<v Speaker 1>like working out, however much I work out. At many

0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:17.360
<v Speaker 1>points I think I look good even though other people

0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:20.280
<v Speaker 1>tell me I don't. What would you tell somebody who

0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:23.440
<v Speaker 1>just there's signs all around them that something's not right,

0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:26.680
<v Speaker 1>but they really don't believe it themselves. Yeah, I mean,

0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.080
<v Speaker 1>first off, I want to ask about the quality of

0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:31.480
<v Speaker 1>their life, like, just because your life appears great on

0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:34.200
<v Speaker 1>the outside, like how are you feeling? Like? Are you happy?

0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:36.400
<v Speaker 1>Like do you enjoy the way your life is going?

0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:39.400
<v Speaker 1>And secondly, if they have a child, or if they

0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:41.320
<v Speaker 1>have a niece or nephew or someone they really love,

0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:44.680
<v Speaker 1>like if that person was doing these behaviors, what would

0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:46.800
<v Speaker 1>you say to them and how would you feel? And

0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:49.400
<v Speaker 1>why is it okay for you but not okay for

0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:52.480
<v Speaker 1>your niece or nephew that you love to be doing this? Yeah.

0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:54.760
<v Speaker 1>I think when you bring that into perspective, it kind

0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:57.600
<v Speaker 1>of always shifts and shatters you a little bit. It

0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:01.040
<v Speaker 1>shakes you really to think about things differently. And then

0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:03.560
<v Speaker 1>once you see it that way, you can't unsee your

0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:07.280
<v Speaker 1>own behavior. And then you have to start thinking, Okay, well,

0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:10.040
<v Speaker 1>where can I budge because this isn't the life that

0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:13.480
<v Speaker 1>I truly want And something's got to give because I'm

0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:16.240
<v Speaker 1>I'm missing out on something here. Well, thank you for

0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:19.480
<v Speaker 1>joining us for two episodes. If you missed their first one,

0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:21.840
<v Speaker 1>you want to check that out. Amy hit you with

0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:26.400
<v Speaker 1>some really good questions all about how eating disorders are formed,

0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:28.800
<v Speaker 1>what it means to act as if, which I think

0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:31.960
<v Speaker 1>is probably the most helpful tool for somebody who's trying

0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:35.240
<v Speaker 1>to recover, but it just feels too scared. And we're

0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:37.640
<v Speaker 1>going to link your new book below and all of

0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.960
<v Speaker 1>your information as always, and thank you for being an

0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:44.360
<v Speaker 1>amazing guest and amazing resource on Instagram. We'll put your

0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:47.560
<v Speaker 1>instant below and we just adore you. Thank you, Jennifer awesome.

0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:49.160
<v Speaker 1>Thank you guys so much for having me