WEBVTT - Heavyweight Short: The Sharing Place 0:00:04.680 --> 0:00:08.640 Hey everyone, Jonathan here. This week we're re releasing a 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:11.440 story of mine from This American Life, about a grief 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:16.240 counseling center for kids called The Sharing Place. We wanted 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:18.400 to play this story for you because it involves some 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:20.720 of the same things that we talk about on Heavyweight, 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:23.720 where I often find myself speaking with adults who are 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:27.520 grappling with traumatic moments from the distant past. But in 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:30.600 this story, I'm talking with children who are grappling with 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:34.880 those moments in the present as kids. That's coming up 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:38.760 right after the break. A quick warning. This story involves 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:43.000 children talking to adults about death and other sensitive subject matter. 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:50.120 There's a house in Salt Lake City where kids come 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:53.800 to have death explained to them, not just that people die, 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:57.920 but how they die. It's called The Sharing Place, and 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:01.360 the first person they meet there is Jill McFarlane. This 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:02.960 is how she explains a heart attack. 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:05.880 Your heart stopped working and couldn't move your blood through 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:06.360 your body. 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:09.880 She has a quiver full of kid sized explanations for 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:13.120 all the ways that life can end, like kidney failure. 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:15.560 Your kidneys are washing machines for your blood, and when 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:17.840 your blood they stop working and your blood sturdy then 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:18.760 you poison. 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:20.319 Your body and you die overdoses. 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:23.080 Overdose is when you have a sickness in your brain 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:26.800 called addiction, and addiction makes you take medicine that's not 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:28.800 good for you, and you take away too much of it. 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:31.560 But not all medicine's bad either. 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:34.080 If you dealt with a murder m. 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:37.759 H, it's when somebody chooses to make your body stop working. 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:41.400 It's a choice. We also do choice and not choice, 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:45.920 like murder is a choice, cancer is not a choice. 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:49.560 We also do contagious or not contagious, like you're not 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:52.240 going to get my depression and you're not going to 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:53.320 get my cancer. 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:04.320 The Sharing Place is a grief support center for kids 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:07.280 who've lost a family member. It's one of hundreds of 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:10.680 centers like it around the country. Kids sit in support 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:13.240 groups led by grown ups, but the point is to 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:16.239 allow children to talk to other children about their grief. 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:20.600 They're encouraged to speak in concrete language about death because 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:24.560 the thinking goes that's how to process death's finality. So 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:29.640 people don't pass away, you don't lose them, they die. 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:32.320 We invest so much effort trying to shield kids from 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:35.720 the scary things in life. We place advisories before TV 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:39.160 shows that warn against the inappropriate language and subject matter, 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:42.640 and what could be less appropriate than death? So for 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:46.680 all we let on bunnies lay eggs, your mother means well, 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:51.280 and life pretty much goes on forever. To do otherwise 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:53.959 feels like you're breaking a basic pack that grown ups 0:02:54.000 --> 0:03:02.560 have with one another. Who did you have? My dad? 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:04.440 Two guinea pigs, a. 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:09.880 Dog to catch, and. 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:13.359 My dad and that's all. 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:16.520 The kids here are more comfortable talking about death than 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:19.560 most adults are. Like Hayley, who lost his sister and 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:23.160 brother to mitochondrial disease. She and her other brother have 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:26.200 the disease too, but not as bad. They've had to 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:28.720 deal with something that most other people haven't had to, 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:32.040 let alone other kids. So it's hard to talk about 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:33.120 with the kids at school. 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:37.360 Sometimes they don't even know what we're talking about because 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:40.520 we know all this stuff, like all these words that 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:43.480 nobody's heard, like no, no, the other kids heard. 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:44.840 About, like like. 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:49.000 Neurological or or something like that, and they're like, what 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:51.920 does that mean? Or like a feeding to what does 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:52.440 that mean? 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:55.160 And it's really hard to explain. 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:57.280 It's not hard to explain, but it's hard to like 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:02.840 tell them, and I still don't understand where it goes 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:04.200 or what it does to help you. 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:09.360 But this is a place where kids do understand. There 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:11.840 are more than a dozen separate groups at the Sharing Place, 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:15.120 broken down by age. The groups meet twice a month 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:17.200 for about an hour and a half in a refurbished 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:20.200 house made to feel homey and safe, so it's like 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:23.640 visiting your grandma's. There are rooms where kids meet and 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:26.560 talk in rooms where their parents do the same, but 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:31.320 most of the rooms are dedicated to play. There's a 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:36.160 costume room where kids can dress up like police, ballerinas, cowboys. 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:41.000 I'm spider Man, so you can do whatever I call 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:42.279 you too. 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:45.000 And beside it is a room called the soft Room, 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:48.480 which is full of props and toys, including an old telephone. 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:51.160 One little girl who watched her mother have a heart 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:54.240 attack spends an entire play session pretending to call for 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:59.520 help High nine one one. She'd say, my grandma's dying, hurry, 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:04.159 come quick. Then she'd hang up and dial again, high 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:12.720 nine on one, my dad's dying, Hurry, come quick. One 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:15.279 of the most popular rooms is a padded room called 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:18.920 the Volcano Room. The Volcano Room, it's full of cushions 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:22.120 and large rubber yoga balls. It's even got an adult 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:26.360 sized dummy to wrestle and punch. The kids can scream, yell, 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:29.960 pound the walls, and throw things around. They love it. 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:35.080 Wow, boom bam, no buck in. 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:40.120 A back nag, whoa, it's a release. Eve is nine 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:42.840 years old and her father died about two years ago. 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:46.080 She knows that feeling of keeping it all bottled up inside. 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:48.599 She says she can go days at school like that. 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:55.200 It kind of feels really overwhelming and it's like you 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:58.760 you'd like don't know what to do. And on the 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:03.400 inside it's like hurting somehow, in like a feeling way, 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:05.200 like hurts somehow. 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:08.920 Where do would you say it hurts? 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:13.400 Usually with me it would hurt its throat and kind 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:19.520 of in my stomach. It's like something that needs to 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:22.960 come out. But just I really need to learn how 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:23.359 to do that. 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:30.000 I think there are people who in this world who 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:32.400 can grow up and don't really know how to talk 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:34.159 frankly about lots of things. 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:37.000 Nancy Riiser is one of the co founders of The 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:40.600 Sharing Place, and this is what she says when children 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:41.840 ask her how people die. 0:06:42.400 --> 0:07:01.080 We'll close your eyes and listen and there isn't the 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:05.359 next breath. Does it hurt? I don't think so. I 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:08.360 don't think so. Their face doesn't look like it hurt. 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:12.280 Nancy's a therapist who works with young children. For a 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:15.320 long time, the very concept that children do, in fact 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:19.080 grieve was hotly disputed. Freud said that it was difficult 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:22.320 for children to even conceive of such loss and does 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:25.360 a culture. Nancy says, that's pretty much the idea that 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:26.240 we operate under. 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:30.720 Oh, look she's playing, She's okay, she didn't really understand 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:33.440 what happened. Well, she's playing, but then half an hour 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:35.720 later she's in the house holding her Teddy bear and 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:39.640 sucking her thumb and crying. So we need to let 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:46.920 people know that children grief and help them when they 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:50.640 grieve so it's not stuck inside and comes out when 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:54.360 they try to have a relationship. Later, when they start 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:57.480 to get intimate, Wow, they cannot bear it and they 0:07:57.560 --> 0:07:58.360 go off and they. 0:07:58.240 --> 0:07:58.920 Don't know why. 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:04.239 Nancy says, children just grieve differently than adults, Especially little children. 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:07.200 They grieve in fits and starts. They can't focus on 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:10.160 it for very long, and grief is more physical for them. 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:13.080 They'll ACKed out their anger, maybe kick a door, which 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:15.480 is the reason for the volcano room at the Sharing Place. 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:19.880 They might also regress suddenly using baby talk or sucking 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:23.640 their thumbs, and if they're potty trained, they might become untrained. 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:27.840 They're also magical thinkers. I heard stories of kids who 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:30.320 were afraid to go to sleep because Grandma went to 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:33.640 sleep and didn't wake up. One little boy wandered away 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:36.600 from his mom at the emergency room, saying, I'm looking 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:40.199 for dad. We left him here last time. Another boy 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:42.600 said he just wanted to die for a few days 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:45.319 so he can go to heaven and teach his little 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:55.120 sister how to ride a tricycle. Children also regrieve. That is, 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:58.120 with every new stage of development, they experienced their grief 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:01.719 anew and with every mile stone when their braces come off, 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:04.960 when they get their driver's license, when they graduate, they'll 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:09.079 inevitably think, I wish my mom was here. And given 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:11.600 all of this, the thought behind the Sharing Place and 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:14.520 other centers like it is that kids can help one 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:17.440 another in a way that adults perhaps can't help them. 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:21.199 That's why they're brought together in these groups. In short, 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:26.280 kids speak the same language. It is turned on what 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:28.559 do you think about this Before the session At the 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:31.920 sharing place, I sit down with Gavin, who's six, and 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:35.440 his brother Aiden, who's eight. They're both dressed in matching 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:39.200 long sleeve polo shirts. Gavin sits on his mother Nichole's lap. 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:43.160 Aiden sits beside them. Oh, do you want to introduce yourself? 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:50.439 I'm Aiden. My dad died vice suicide. 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:51.160 Suicide. 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:55.120 His little brother Gavin points his finger to his head 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:58.320 and pulls the pretend trigger. He snaps his head back. 0:09:58.640 --> 0:09:59.760 Yep, that's what happened. 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:01.120 What did you just do there? 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:03.599 He shot his head. 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:08.880 And then we didn't know he was dead, right, Mama? 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:14.000 We didn't and then we then he said, wake up dad, 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:18.840 No you didn't see him. Mommy found him and he 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:20.440 was already he was already dead. 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:22.400 Did you turn over? 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:25.000 I didn't touch him. 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:29.840 Okay, she knew he was like dead because she saw 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:32.199 blood and things. 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:34.520 On his head. 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:42.040 Yeah. And he was like a terrific guy, so nice, 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:42.760 so generous. 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:47.240 He would always help anyone. H he was a terrific guy. 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:51.240 What would what did you learn here that helped you 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:54.000 the most to understand how he died? 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:58.800 Sometimes that task telling the kids that their parents committed 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:03.600 suicide to Jill McFarlane because the surviving parent or guardian 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:05.880 might be so inside their own grief that they can't 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:09.720 bring themselves to do it. Jill explained suicide as simply 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:12.560 as she does other kinds of death. There's a sickness 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:15.480 in your brain called depression, she says, and it can 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:18.040 make you decide to make your own body stop working. 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:21.439 She says it's required that the kids know how their 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:24.480 brother or sister or mother died before starting the group. 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:27.920 Why had one family say he died because he was sick. 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:30.880 One family said that he died in a car accident. 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:34.800 One family said that he accidentally shot himself he didn't 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:35.080 mean to. 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:37.800 It was Jill who helped their mom break the news 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:40.800 to Aiden and Gavin that their dad shot himself. She 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:43.439 says that conversation was especially hard. 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:47.839 The boys immediately said, you don't know my dad. Why 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.760 would you say that you don't know us? And I said, 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:53.200 I know, I don't know you. But your mom's here 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:55.760 today because she needs She needed my help in telling 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:57.480 you this, because this is a really hard and scary 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:00.360 thing that happened. And your mom told me that that's 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:04.640 what happened. And Aiden just was like, you're crazy, lady. 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:06.600 There's no way that we're going to talk about this. 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:09.200 This is not what happened. It was horrible and it 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:12.240 was awful, and I cried that whole night. It was 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:15.120 just awful. I just felt so horrible, and my husband 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:16.920 was like, you can't do this. You have to quote 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:18.440 to the director and tell her that you can't do 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:18.920 this again. 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:25.400 Suicide is always one of the highest, if not the highest, 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:28.679 cause of death for Sharing Place families at any given time. 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:33.600 There's actually a special group devoted specifically to suicide, and 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:35.679 a lot of the stories you hear in that group 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.600 are so horrible that you can't help. But wonder, why 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:42.360 tell the kids what happened at all? Why not just 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:45.959 say they died and leave it at that. According to 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:48.800 Jill and her colleagues, we need to tell children so 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:51.720 they won't find out later in life and wonder what 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:54.520 else did they lie to me about. They also don't 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:56.160 want to have to cloak it in a way that 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:59.840 suggests it's unspeakable and shameful. They get enough of that 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:04.520 idea at school. This is Eve again, whose father also 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:05.360 shot himself. 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:08.800 Well, some people at school, they say, this makes me 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:13.160 feel really sad too. They say that when somebody kills 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:17.200 themselves that means they go to the wrong place. I 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:19.840 don't believe that, but it just makes me feel really 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:23.040 sad when they say that, like instead of going to 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:25.760 a happy place, they would go to a sad. 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:29.080 But even if you even if you don't believe it 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:31.360 and you know it's nonsense, it's still kind of hurts 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:32.280 that someone would say that. 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:41.840 Yeah, it does, because like it's like somebody judging, judging 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:47.319 my papa, which it's not a bad thing. A lot 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:50.679 of people do that, but you know, just kind of 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:54.960 feels a little weird, like on the inside. It makes 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:59.280 me feel like I'm gonna scream and like do something 0:13:59.360 --> 0:13:59.679 like that. 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:04.520 What are the things that you wish that people would. 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:15.240 Say, Probably, it's okay that that has happened, and we 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:23.680 can help you with feeling better and understanding you. No, 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:27.040 that's probably something I'd want somebody to say. 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:31.560 Once a child knows how their loved one died, they're 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:34.360 encouraged to say it out loud. There's a kind of 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:37.840 sorcery to it, naming the dragons so you can defeat it. 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:41.400 I sat in on the suicide group, which is different 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:43.560 than the other groups, and that kids tend to come 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.840 to meetings for a longer period of time, partly because 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:49.480 they didn't get to say goodbye. The kids sit in 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:51.520 a circle at the beginning of the meeting and hand 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:55.080 around a talking stick. One by one, they say their name, 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:57.360 who died, and how they died. 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:03.000 My name is Eli, and the person who died was 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:10.560 my dad, and he died by shooting his hisself with 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:15.160 the gun, and he and he wanted to die. 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:17.040 Hello. 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:20.480 My name is Lindsey. My dad died. He died by 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:24.960 a suicide, and I regret not seeing him because I 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:28.280 hadn't seen him for a couple of months before his death. 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:32.200 There's also a different question they respond to each time 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:34.640 they meet. What do you miss most about the person? 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:38.200 Is there anything you don't miss? Tonight's question is what 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:38.880 do you regret? 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:43.000 My name is Ethan, and the person who died is 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:46.760 my dad. He died by shooting his soaf inm the hood, 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:52.600 and I don't know if I have a new regret, 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:54.120 so I just can't remember. 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:57.240 It can take a long time for them to get 0:15:57.280 --> 0:15:59.880 to this point where they can say the word suicide. 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:02.760 The sharing place never corrects any of the kids or 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:05.560 forces them to say anything they don't want to, but 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:07.840 they noticed when a child is finally able to say it. 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:11.480 The night I was there, Aiden, the nine year old 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:13.400 I talked to who had a hard time saying the 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:16.200 word suicide, was finally able to say it in group. 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:17.280 So how about Aiden? 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:20.320 The volunteers set around and talked about it afterwards. 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:22.400 It was hard for him. I could tell he wasn't 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:24.280 about to say it, but he said it, and I 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:27.080 was proud of him. But it took him probably at 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:29.600 least a minute to actually get those words out. 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:32.240 He had asked his mom if it was okay to say, 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:34.880 so she wasn't coaching him, no anything. 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:39.160 He was good. On the other hand, Aiden's brother, Gavin, 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:42.400 the six year old, talks about his dad's suicide incessantly. 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:45.840 He also draws guns during playtime and even sculpts them 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:48.520 out of Plato. This is Joe McFarlane again. 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:51.680 He tells everybody at school, my dad shot his brains 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:54.360 and it freaks everybody out, and so then he gets 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:56.800 in trouble at school, which then he was like, well, 0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:00.320 I guess I can't ever talk about my dad. But 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:03.120 this is how kindergartner's talk and process things. It's just 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:05.760 easy for them to talk about, but it scares other people. 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:07.959 Is it okay for kids to other kids in their 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:09.160 class to hear that kind of thing? 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:09.520 Well? 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:12.919 Yeah, I mean, what's is there a right answer to that? 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:13.399 I don't know. 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.080 I don't know either. If I were a parent, I'm 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:18.879 not sure i'd want my kid hearing that kind of 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:22.200 thing at school. And while Jill doesn't have an answer, 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:25.359 she does think kids being allowed to express themselves is 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:27.840 much healthier than sending them a message that it's wrong 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.560 to say this kind of stuff out loud, and that's 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:32.040 got to be a step in the right direction. 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.080 I have very, very, very fond memories of this place. 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:44.960 I actually tried to come through the side door because 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:47.280 that was the door that I always came in through. 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:50.399 Then I was like, I can you use the adult entrance? 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:55.280 Finally, Sarah Muhammad hasn't been to the sharing place for 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:58.560 a full six years. She's twenty one now. Well, when 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:02.600 she was eleven, her older hanged himself, even though he 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:05.320 was supposed to be babysitting her. Her parents had told 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:07.159 her to keep an eye out on him because of 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:11.560 his past suicide attempts. Obviously what happened was in her fault, 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:14.520 but she blamed herself, which is something I heard other 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:17.959 kids here talk about too. It's easy for an adult 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:21.199 to say, don't be silly, it's not your fault, but 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:22.960 it's a whole other thing to talk with a kid 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:25.719 at the sharing place who says, I know exactly what 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:27.159 you're talking about it. 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:30.479 It was kind of nice seeing the older kids whose 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:35.520 you know, loved ones had been gone for a few years, 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:40.200 how they were able to go to school normally and 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.840 just live their normal lives. Because I just didn't want 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:47.400 to go to school. I didn't want to be with 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:51.439 kids who just didn't know. It was just it was 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:52.119 too hard. 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:55.560 I asked Sarah if there was a turning point, a 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:57.679 moment when she began to feel like maybe she was 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:00.879 doing a little better. She said, yes, she was in 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:03.040 the courtyard with a bunch of other kids. 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:06.840 We were just out there painting rocks or something for 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:12.280 a fundraiser, and we were just talking, just talking like normal, 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:16.000 and I realized that I hadn't had a conversation like 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:22.000 that in about a year, just where where I felt 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:26.439 one hundred percent free and just laughing and not feeling 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:34.200 guilty about laughing and just happy and that was Yeah. 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:38.760 That was really the first time in a good nine 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:43.160 months after my brother had passed that I felt okay. 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:52.480 It's the kids themselves who decide when they're ready to 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:55.360 stop coming to the sharing place, but on average they 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:58.520 stay about two years. When they're ready to leave, they 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:01.320 have to announce their intention to times in group before 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:02.480 their final goodbye. 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:04.679 Any of you that would like to say something to him, 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:06.639 which I'm sure several of you will. 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:09.960 The goodbye is ceremonial, and on the last night I 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:12.360 was there, at the end of the meeting, they said 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:15.080 goodbye to a kid named Robbie. He sat in the 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:18.280 circle with the other kids and volunteers, and anybody who 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:20.360 wanted to could pick up the talking stick and say 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:23.320 a few words. His friend Jessica was the last kid 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:23.800 to do so. 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:27.080 I'll definitely miss you because you're like one of my 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:31.160 best friends in this group, and I'll miss seeing you 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:36.280 and our major fight that we had in the volcano room. 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:43.480 It was not my fault, yes you did. No, it 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:45.959 was just really fun and I'm gonna miss seeing you 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:46.960 and miss hanging out with you. 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:50.359 At Robbie's last meeting. There was a kid who had 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:53.480 just shown up. It was his first meeting. He had 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:56.760 long bangs hanging over his eyes, and except for his name, 0:20:57.080 --> 0:21:00.399 didn't say anything the whole time. Whenever it knew person 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:03.040 joins the veteran kids have a chance to gauge their 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:05.800 own progress, to remember what they were like when they 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:08.160 first showed up and think about how bad it used 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:13.600 to be and how now it isn't as bad, And ultimately, 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:16.080 like Robbie, they'll make way for someone on the long 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:19.040 waiting list, a list on which new names are added 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:22.560 all the time. They'll say, I think it's time to go, 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:41.560 and then they'll say it again. This story originally ran 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:44.960 on This American Life in twenty fifteen. It was produced 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:47.679 by Sean Coole. Special thanks to the team at This 0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:50.280 American Life for letting us share it here. It was 0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:53.560 mixed for Heavyweight by Emmamonger with music by Christine Fellows, 0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:57.800 Blue Dot Sessions, Bobby Lord and Poddington Bear. If you're 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:00.280 feeling depressed or just want someone to talk to, you 0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:03.520 can call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at one eight 0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:08.159 hundred two seven three eight two five five. Since this 0:22:08.240 --> 0:22:11.160 story originally aired, The sharing Place has expanded to three 0:22:11.240 --> 0:22:15.600 locations in Utah and also partners with local schools and organizations. 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:18.199 You can find out more about their work at the 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:19.720 Sharingplace dot org.