1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:24,436 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:24,436 --> 00:00:27,596 Speaker 1: where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:28,076 --> 00:00:31,396 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. We're going to have a new episode 4 00:00:31,396 --> 00:00:34,836 Speaker 1: in your feed on Wednesday, but before then, I wanted 5 00:00:34,876 --> 00:00:38,276 Speaker 1: to share this episode with you from our archives. I 6 00:00:38,316 --> 00:00:40,836 Speaker 1: couldn't stop thinking about it in the light of the 7 00:00:40,916 --> 00:00:45,076 Speaker 1: insurrection at the Capitol. It's a conversation I had with 8 00:00:45,196 --> 00:00:48,996 Speaker 1: Kathleen Bellou, a historian at the University of Chicago. Her 9 00:00:49,036 --> 00:00:52,316 Speaker 1: book Bring the War Home, The White Power Movement and 10 00:00:52,396 --> 00:00:56,916 Speaker 1: Paramilitary America is the definitive look at the modern history 11 00:00:57,196 --> 00:01:00,436 Speaker 1: of the white power movement. I spoke to Kathleen in 12 00:01:00,476 --> 00:01:03,516 Speaker 1: May of twenty nineteen, just after a shooting at a 13 00:01:03,556 --> 00:01:06,916 Speaker 1: synagogue outside San Diego in which one person was killed 14 00:01:07,116 --> 00:01:10,356 Speaker 1: and three were injured. She held me then see how 15 00:01:10,356 --> 00:01:12,876 Speaker 1: that shooting was not just an isolated action by a 16 00:01:12,876 --> 00:01:16,556 Speaker 1: white supremacist, but part of a broader social movement, and 17 00:01:16,636 --> 00:01:21,676 Speaker 1: she predicted that there would be more attacks. Unfortunately, Kathleen 18 00:01:22,076 --> 00:01:25,356 Speaker 1: was right. I've been thinking about our conversation because it 19 00:01:25,476 --> 00:01:29,556 Speaker 1: helped me put what happened at the Capitol into historical context. 20 00:01:30,316 --> 00:01:33,676 Speaker 1: It's no surprise that Kathleen has been widely interviewed and 21 00:01:33,796 --> 00:01:36,996 Speaker 1: quoted in the last week. I hope listening to her 22 00:01:37,076 --> 00:01:40,676 Speaker 1: now helps you contextualize the same way it has done 23 00:01:40,876 --> 00:01:52,396 Speaker 1: for me. Kathleen, welcome to Deep Background. Before we dive 24 00:01:52,596 --> 00:01:56,796 Speaker 1: into the history and prehistory of white power and white supremacy, 25 00:01:56,876 --> 00:01:59,156 Speaker 1: can I ask you just a personal question, how did 26 00:01:59,196 --> 00:02:01,516 Speaker 1: she get interested in this topic? It is not the 27 00:02:01,596 --> 00:02:05,196 Speaker 1: most obvious topic for historian to work on. It isn't 28 00:02:05,196 --> 00:02:08,596 Speaker 1: and in fact, when I began the dissertation, I was 29 00:02:08,636 --> 00:02:10,996 Speaker 1: told by more than one person that it technically could 30 00:02:10,996 --> 00:02:13,916 Speaker 1: not count as history, because the usual rule of thumb 31 00:02:13,916 --> 00:02:15,716 Speaker 1: when you're starting a dissertation is that you should be 32 00:02:15,756 --> 00:02:19,036 Speaker 1: studying things twenty five years ago or further is the rule. 33 00:02:19,756 --> 00:02:21,196 Speaker 1: It turns out that it took me so long to 34 00:02:21,196 --> 00:02:23,236 Speaker 1: finish the book that I had cleared that mark by 35 00:02:23,276 --> 00:02:26,636 Speaker 1: the time it was all said and done. But I 36 00:02:26,676 --> 00:02:30,556 Speaker 1: actually think that the study of the recent past has become, 37 00:02:30,596 --> 00:02:32,956 Speaker 1: as you can see with this project, urgently important to 38 00:02:33,076 --> 00:02:37,676 Speaker 1: understanding our political moment and the debates and challenges that 39 00:02:37,716 --> 00:02:40,396 Speaker 1: we now find ourselves embroiled in. I wanted to start 40 00:02:40,396 --> 00:02:44,516 Speaker 1: by asking about the category of white power or white supremacy, 41 00:02:45,116 --> 00:02:48,076 Speaker 1: certainly in a country like the United States, which had 42 00:02:48,116 --> 00:02:50,716 Speaker 1: slavery from the very beginning of the country, and of 43 00:02:50,716 --> 00:02:53,236 Speaker 1: course there was slavery long before there was a United States. 44 00:02:53,716 --> 00:02:59,196 Speaker 1: In North America. The idea that white people are superior 45 00:02:59,236 --> 00:03:02,196 Speaker 1: to the black people, that people of African descent, is 46 00:03:02,636 --> 00:03:05,996 Speaker 1: almost baked in to the earliest history of the country 47 00:03:05,996 --> 00:03:09,636 Speaker 1: and the prehistory of the country. And I wonder, how 48 00:03:09,636 --> 00:03:11,556 Speaker 1: do you know where to start? You know, when you 49 00:03:11,596 --> 00:03:14,716 Speaker 1: talk about white power or white supremacy. You know, how 50 00:03:14,716 --> 00:03:16,036 Speaker 1: do you know that you don't have to start all 51 00:03:16,036 --> 00:03:17,916 Speaker 1: the way back in the sixteen hundreds when the first 52 00:03:17,956 --> 00:03:21,116 Speaker 1: African slaves were brought to the Americas, or in seventeen 53 00:03:21,116 --> 00:03:24,516 Speaker 1: eighty seven with the US Constitution, which enshrines slavery in 54 00:03:24,556 --> 00:03:29,236 Speaker 1: certain respects. The what's you are working starting place when 55 00:03:29,236 --> 00:03:32,516 Speaker 1: you start thinking about white power. So when I teach 56 00:03:32,556 --> 00:03:34,916 Speaker 1: this to my undergraduates, we do start with those long 57 00:03:35,076 --> 00:03:39,676 Speaker 1: histories of racial inequality, the ways that white supremacy is 58 00:03:39,716 --> 00:03:42,836 Speaker 1: not only a matter of ideological belief for some people 59 00:03:42,836 --> 00:03:45,996 Speaker 1: in the United States, but has become imbricated in our 60 00:03:45,996 --> 00:03:49,276 Speaker 1: systems of government, our distribution of resources, are policing and 61 00:03:49,396 --> 00:03:52,276 Speaker 1: all kinds of other ways. It's everywhere. Race is everywhere 62 00:03:52,276 --> 00:03:55,316 Speaker 1: in this country. Race is everywhere. I think reasonable people 63 00:03:55,356 --> 00:04:00,316 Speaker 1: can agree on that. I think that the definitions part 64 00:04:00,836 --> 00:04:05,756 Speaker 1: is critically important, especially now. So what white power refers 65 00:04:05,796 --> 00:04:09,636 Speaker 1: to is a movement that comes out of the Nam War, 66 00:04:10,116 --> 00:04:14,156 Speaker 1: brings together a bunch of ideologically diverse activists who had 67 00:04:14,196 --> 00:04:18,196 Speaker 1: not been working together before, such as clansmen, Neo Nazis, skinheads, 68 00:04:18,276 --> 00:04:22,796 Speaker 1: radical tax resistors, white separatists, and others, and kind of 69 00:04:22,796 --> 00:04:26,236 Speaker 1: amalgamates them into one social movement, using the narrative of 70 00:04:26,236 --> 00:04:29,236 Speaker 1: the war to bind them together, and then declares war 71 00:04:29,396 --> 00:04:33,436 Speaker 1: on the federal government. So that begins in nineteen eighty three. 72 00:04:34,556 --> 00:04:39,516 Speaker 1: Before that, I would characterize things like the mini iterations 73 00:04:39,516 --> 00:04:43,676 Speaker 1: of the KKK, the Neo Nazi Party in the United States. 74 00:04:43,996 --> 00:04:48,036 Speaker 1: Those things are more like vigilante violence, in that the 75 00:04:48,196 --> 00:04:53,196 Speaker 1: violence is either supporting the state or supporting local status 76 00:04:53,276 --> 00:04:56,836 Speaker 1: quo power. Post nineteen eighty three, we're dealing with a 77 00:04:56,836 --> 00:05:00,796 Speaker 1: completely different thing. After that, it is a revolutionary movement 78 00:05:00,836 --> 00:05:03,556 Speaker 1: that is attempting to overthrow the United States, either through 79 00:05:04,396 --> 00:05:07,796 Speaker 1: a kind of long asymmetrical war of sabotage or through 80 00:05:07,876 --> 00:05:13,436 Speaker 1: a direct revolution. So that's the white power movement. The 81 00:05:13,796 --> 00:05:17,956 Speaker 1: tricky one for a lot of people is white nationalism. 82 00:05:17,996 --> 00:05:20,436 Speaker 1: And actually, I think it's easier to understand right now 83 00:05:20,476 --> 00:05:23,276 Speaker 1: because all of these stories in the news about Hindu 84 00:05:23,396 --> 00:05:27,916 Speaker 1: nationalism make this distinction really, really clear. So Hindu nationalism, 85 00:05:27,956 --> 00:05:31,076 Speaker 1: for listeners who meant to be familiar, is a movement 86 00:05:31,116 --> 00:05:35,316 Speaker 1: in India in which people who are a Hindu nationalists 87 00:05:35,316 --> 00:05:39,956 Speaker 1: and they call themselves that are organizing to make India 88 00:05:40,556 --> 00:05:44,956 Speaker 1: more oriented around Hinduism in culture and in policy. Right, 89 00:05:45,076 --> 00:05:47,636 Speaker 1: so they're trying to inject the nation of India with 90 00:05:47,836 --> 00:05:52,716 Speaker 1: Hinduism more than an Ardias. It's complicated in India by 91 00:05:52,756 --> 00:05:56,316 Speaker 1: the fact that the name for India in the language 92 00:05:56,276 --> 00:06:00,516 Speaker 1: and Hindi is Hindustan. So you know, the word itself, 93 00:06:00,596 --> 00:06:03,716 Speaker 1: Hindu doesn't only mean the religion. It also means a culture, 94 00:06:03,756 --> 00:06:06,556 Speaker 1: also means a civilization. It's a tricky one, indeed. But 95 00:06:06,596 --> 00:06:11,556 Speaker 1: the category is India white nationalism. The category is not 96 00:06:11,636 --> 00:06:15,556 Speaker 1: the United States. The nation imagined by white nationalism after 97 00:06:15,716 --> 00:06:19,756 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty three is fundamentally opposed to the United States 98 00:06:19,756 --> 00:06:22,116 Speaker 1: and also to New Zealand and Australia and other nations 99 00:06:22,116 --> 00:06:25,956 Speaker 1: where this takes hold. White nationalism is attempting to create 100 00:06:26,036 --> 00:06:30,756 Speaker 1: a transnational group of white people that will take over 101 00:06:30,796 --> 00:06:33,996 Speaker 1: white homelands, and eventually many of them hope to wage 102 00:06:34,036 --> 00:06:37,116 Speaker 1: war such that they can achieve an all white world. 103 00:06:37,636 --> 00:06:41,356 Speaker 1: That's not the same thing as say the Clan in 104 00:06:41,396 --> 00:06:44,716 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties, where people were marching on the National 105 00:06:44,756 --> 00:06:48,196 Speaker 1: Mall with their robes and hoods but their faces uncovered, which, 106 00:06:48,316 --> 00:06:52,716 Speaker 1: among other things, anti immigrant. It was both suppressing African Americans, 107 00:06:52,716 --> 00:06:54,876 Speaker 1: but also the Clan in the nineteen it's nineteen twenties 108 00:06:54,876 --> 00:06:58,916 Speaker 1: iteration was very focused on immigrants, especially from Catholic countries. 109 00:06:59,076 --> 00:07:01,236 Speaker 1: The white power movement also is anti immigrant. But the 110 00:07:01,236 --> 00:07:04,956 Speaker 1: thing that's different is that after nineteen eighty three, this 111 00:07:05,036 --> 00:07:08,476 Speaker 1: is an anti government, anti nation movement. It's not an 112 00:07:08,516 --> 00:07:12,956 Speaker 1: over exert of patriotism. It's not just too much nationalism. 113 00:07:12,996 --> 00:07:17,036 Speaker 1: You talked about opposition to the United States as opposed 114 00:07:17,036 --> 00:07:20,556 Speaker 1: to vigilante violence. But in its first iteration, when the 115 00:07:20,636 --> 00:07:23,996 Speaker 1: ku Klux Klan came into existence after the Civil War 116 00:07:24,556 --> 00:07:27,636 Speaker 1: in part to resist the attempts at the creation of 117 00:07:27,716 --> 00:07:30,716 Speaker 1: racial equality that we're being imposed in the South by 118 00:07:30,836 --> 00:07:34,316 Speaker 1: military reconstruction, that is, by an occupation of Union troops. 119 00:07:35,356 --> 00:07:37,876 Speaker 1: Wasn't it also in its origins the clan at that 120 00:07:37,916 --> 00:07:41,356 Speaker 1: point in a sense revolutionary. It was opposed to the 121 00:07:41,356 --> 00:07:44,636 Speaker 1: government of the United States, and it was supporting the 122 00:07:44,716 --> 00:07:49,156 Speaker 1: already defeated ideals of the Confederacy. So in some sense, 123 00:07:49,596 --> 00:07:52,516 Speaker 1: wasn't there a revolutionary impulse implicit in the clan from 124 00:07:52,516 --> 00:07:55,716 Speaker 1: the beginning? I think yes, But I think this one 125 00:07:55,796 --> 00:07:58,156 Speaker 1: is highly debatable, and I think it depends on what 126 00:07:58,236 --> 00:08:01,476 Speaker 1: historians would call periodization, meaning when you choose to stop 127 00:08:01,516 --> 00:08:03,956 Speaker 1: that story. So, the first clan was founded in eighteen 128 00:08:04,036 --> 00:08:09,716 Speaker 1: sixty six in Pulaski, Tennessee, by frustrated veterans of the Federacy. 129 00:08:10,596 --> 00:08:13,836 Speaker 1: It very quickly grew, but at the beginning was mostly 130 00:08:14,676 --> 00:08:19,276 Speaker 1: understood as sort of like a burlesque prankster group. And 131 00:08:19,316 --> 00:08:23,076 Speaker 1: then there is this moment when it formalizes and turns violent, 132 00:08:23,556 --> 00:08:27,916 Speaker 1: and that violence is directed at African Americans, school tax collectors, 133 00:08:28,836 --> 00:08:31,876 Speaker 1: school teachers, and people from the North who come in 134 00:08:31,916 --> 00:08:36,236 Speaker 1: to implement reconstruction and people in the South who support reconstruction. 135 00:08:36,676 --> 00:08:40,716 Speaker 1: In other words, it is an attempt either to resist 136 00:08:41,596 --> 00:08:46,316 Speaker 1: the federal government's efforts to reconstruct the South or to 137 00:08:47,476 --> 00:08:51,396 Speaker 1: form a new system of power. So right in there 138 00:08:51,436 --> 00:08:56,476 Speaker 1: is the distinction between revolutionary and something else. Historians have 139 00:08:56,556 --> 00:09:00,596 Speaker 1: sort of argued a lot over this, but I think 140 00:09:00,636 --> 00:09:03,676 Speaker 1: it's important to remember that the Jim Crow regime in 141 00:09:03,676 --> 00:09:06,956 Speaker 1: the South is not sort of just a continuation of slavery, 142 00:09:07,516 --> 00:09:10,596 Speaker 1: but something that has to be built and constructed and 143 00:09:10,676 --> 00:09:18,436 Speaker 1: invented after reconstruction. The clan doesn't disappear when reconstruction ends. Instead, 144 00:09:18,676 --> 00:09:23,796 Speaker 1: it largely just relocates into citizen militias, into groups like 145 00:09:23,836 --> 00:09:26,996 Speaker 1: the Red Shirts and the White Shirts, into rifle clubs, 146 00:09:27,036 --> 00:09:31,036 Speaker 1: and into spectacle lynchings, which are these mass public participation 147 00:09:31,116 --> 00:09:33,356 Speaker 1: events that carry out a lot of the same kind 148 00:09:33,356 --> 00:09:35,876 Speaker 1: of violence that the clan was already doing, but a 149 00:09:35,916 --> 00:09:37,116 Speaker 1: lot of it in public. I mean, one of the 150 00:09:37,156 --> 00:09:41,236 Speaker 1: things that always amazes me about lynching is that there 151 00:09:41,236 --> 00:09:45,436 Speaker 1: are postcards that were spread through the South of people 152 00:09:45,716 --> 00:09:49,516 Speaker 1: white people gathered around a lynched African American with a 153 00:09:49,516 --> 00:09:52,316 Speaker 1: photograph being taken as a kind of commemoration of the event, 154 00:09:52,396 --> 00:09:54,516 Speaker 1: and no one, no one's wearing a mask, no one's 155 00:09:54,556 --> 00:09:57,356 Speaker 1: hiding his face. Not only that, but there are women 156 00:09:57,356 --> 00:10:00,476 Speaker 1: and children in their Sunday best clothes. These events are 157 00:09:59,676 --> 00:10:03,436 Speaker 1: all very often happening on the courthouse or at local 158 00:10:03,516 --> 00:10:06,316 Speaker 1: sites of power. And it's also not just in the South. 159 00:10:06,396 --> 00:10:10,436 Speaker 1: These are happening in Indiana and the Pacific Northwest, in Texas, 160 00:10:11,156 --> 00:10:14,196 Speaker 1: and in fact, for one stretch in South Texas, the 161 00:10:14,276 --> 00:10:17,196 Speaker 1: chance of being lynched as much higher for Mexican Americans 162 00:10:17,236 --> 00:10:19,516 Speaker 1: and Mexicans than it is for African American men in 163 00:10:19,556 --> 00:10:25,036 Speaker 1: the South. It's that move into lynching that makes me 164 00:10:25,156 --> 00:10:28,156 Speaker 1: reluctant to think of it as revolutionary violence, because lynching 165 00:10:28,156 --> 00:10:32,836 Speaker 1: has mostly been understood as scholars as conveying a kind 166 00:10:32,996 --> 00:10:36,756 Speaker 1: of popular sovereignty of the community, in other words, in 167 00:10:36,796 --> 00:10:39,636 Speaker 1: other words, that when you lynch somebody, the whole community 168 00:10:39,716 --> 00:10:41,476 Speaker 1: is getting together to do it. It's a kind of 169 00:10:41,596 --> 00:10:45,716 Speaker 1: perverted version of small d democracy, where we're doing this 170 00:10:45,956 --> 00:10:49,476 Speaker 1: as a collective. Yes, it's a claim to that power. 171 00:10:49,516 --> 00:10:52,116 Speaker 1: It's a taking back of sovereign power from the state. 172 00:10:52,596 --> 00:10:56,516 Speaker 1: Let's turn now to that revolutionary movement which, as you 173 00:10:56,636 --> 00:11:01,716 Speaker 1: described in nineteen eighty three, unites itself to some degree 174 00:11:01,996 --> 00:11:05,836 Speaker 1: and declares war on the United States of America. Tell 175 00:11:05,916 --> 00:11:07,956 Speaker 1: us that story, because I don't think that's very well known. 176 00:11:08,076 --> 00:11:12,316 Speaker 1: The nineteen eighty three turn comes after this big infrastructure 177 00:11:12,356 --> 00:11:15,796 Speaker 1: build up, an organization of a social movement that happens 178 00:11:16,196 --> 00:11:20,596 Speaker 1: in the years proceeding. The clan builds paramilitary training camps 179 00:11:20,636 --> 00:11:23,956 Speaker 1: all around the country, It trains people in paramilitary warfare. 180 00:11:24,636 --> 00:11:28,036 Speaker 1: It works on amassing weapons and material, getting money, getting 181 00:11:28,036 --> 00:11:31,636 Speaker 1: people organized, getting people in contact with one another. And 182 00:11:31,716 --> 00:11:35,276 Speaker 1: by nineteen eighty three, I think there are two major 183 00:11:35,356 --> 00:11:38,316 Speaker 1: things that happen. One is that that infrastructure is in place. 184 00:11:38,396 --> 00:11:40,636 Speaker 1: Activists know each other, They're all in the same room. 185 00:11:40,716 --> 00:11:42,956 Speaker 1: They're kind of coherent around this common story of the 186 00:11:43,036 --> 00:11:46,916 Speaker 1: Vietnam War, which has allowed some connections possible between different 187 00:11:46,956 --> 00:11:49,836 Speaker 1: groups that weren't possible before. And the other thing that 188 00:11:49,876 --> 00:11:54,476 Speaker 1: happens is they get really frustrated with Reagan. Activists in 189 00:11:54,516 --> 00:11:57,956 Speaker 1: the movement don't make this revolutionary turn in a moment 190 00:11:57,956 --> 00:12:01,836 Speaker 1: of leftist state power, but instead under the second term 191 00:12:01,836 --> 00:12:04,756 Speaker 1: of the Reagan administration. And their argument about this is 192 00:12:04,756 --> 00:12:10,636 Speaker 1: that the distance between Reagan's campaign promises and what they 193 00:12:10,676 --> 00:12:14,396 Speaker 1: see as his moderation proves to them once and for 194 00:12:14,476 --> 00:12:17,236 Speaker 1: all that electoral change will never deliver the kind of 195 00:12:17,276 --> 00:12:19,996 Speaker 1: world they want, and therefore they need to declare war. 196 00:12:20,316 --> 00:12:23,196 Speaker 1: Now this is this is really relevant to us in 197 00:12:23,196 --> 00:12:25,956 Speaker 1: the present moment, because it means that even at moments 198 00:12:25,996 --> 00:12:30,276 Speaker 1: when the center through the left might see kind of 199 00:12:30,276 --> 00:12:34,276 Speaker 1: a moment of conservative orientation and executive power, that doesn't 200 00:12:34,276 --> 00:12:36,476 Speaker 1: mean that activists on the fringe right will be assuaged 201 00:12:36,516 --> 00:12:39,156 Speaker 1: by that, And in fact that's had just the opposite 202 00:12:39,276 --> 00:12:42,596 Speaker 1: effect in this case. So that's extremely important, as you say, 203 00:12:42,716 --> 00:12:46,836 Speaker 1: for the question of the relationship between recent rounds of 204 00:12:47,596 --> 00:12:51,156 Speaker 1: white power of violence and the Trump administration, there's a 205 00:12:51,156 --> 00:12:55,236 Speaker 1: tendency on the left to say, well, look at Charlottesville, 206 00:12:55,756 --> 00:13:00,956 Speaker 1: which followed Donald Trump's assenting to the presidency, and then 207 00:13:01,036 --> 00:13:03,956 Speaker 1: look at subsequent events the Tree of Life shooting, for 208 00:13:03,996 --> 00:13:07,076 Speaker 1: example in the United States, the Christchurch, New Zealand attacks, 209 00:13:07,116 --> 00:13:10,356 Speaker 1: and to see this all as much a result of 210 00:13:10,396 --> 00:13:14,116 Speaker 1: the election of Donald Trump. And if I understand you correctly, 211 00:13:14,196 --> 00:13:17,596 Speaker 1: you're telling a slightly different story about the way that 212 00:13:17,796 --> 00:13:20,476 Speaker 1: white power activists reacted, for example, to the election of 213 00:13:20,716 --> 00:13:23,716 Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan. It's not that they were empowered or emboldened 214 00:13:24,156 --> 00:13:26,756 Speaker 1: by the election of a conservative president. It's rather that 215 00:13:26,796 --> 00:13:29,116 Speaker 1: they felt that it wasn't enough, and that therefore they 216 00:13:29,196 --> 00:13:33,996 Speaker 1: needed to take some revolutionary action. Is that in your mind? 217 00:13:33,996 --> 00:13:36,036 Speaker 1: I mean, we're jumping ahead to the president, which will 218 00:13:36,076 --> 00:13:38,636 Speaker 1: come to you in good time as well. But is 219 00:13:38,836 --> 00:13:41,396 Speaker 1: your view that something like that is happening now among 220 00:13:41,516 --> 00:13:44,636 Speaker 1: white power activists. It's not that they're emboldened so much 221 00:13:44,676 --> 00:13:46,636 Speaker 1: by Trump's election, it's that it's not enough and it 222 00:13:46,636 --> 00:13:50,396 Speaker 1: gives them reason to do more. I suspect that's what 223 00:13:50,436 --> 00:13:53,476 Speaker 1: we're seeing. This is when I have to give the 224 00:13:53,596 --> 00:13:56,956 Speaker 1: historian caveat that the thing that lets me see the 225 00:13:56,996 --> 00:13:58,796 Speaker 1: story that I write about in the book is this 226 00:13:58,956 --> 00:14:03,876 Speaker 1: archive that spans newspapers, primary source materials, FBI and other 227 00:14:03,956 --> 00:14:07,516 Speaker 1: surveillance documents, court testimony. We don't get that kind of 228 00:14:07,516 --> 00:14:10,636 Speaker 1: source base in real time. When you talk about as 229 00:14:10,676 --> 00:14:13,956 Speaker 1: a historian, talk about the archive, you mean some literal 230 00:14:14,036 --> 00:14:16,876 Speaker 1: archives in some cases cashes of documents. But it's also 231 00:14:16,956 --> 00:14:18,996 Speaker 1: the word archive is also a metaphor that a starin's 232 00:14:19,076 --> 00:14:22,516 Speaker 1: used to describe all the materials that you guys use 233 00:14:22,636 --> 00:14:25,676 Speaker 1: to try to make sense of his artical events. Exactly. 234 00:14:25,676 --> 00:14:27,516 Speaker 1: You can think about it as like the receipts for 235 00:14:27,556 --> 00:14:30,276 Speaker 1: the story I'm going to tell I don't have that 236 00:14:30,396 --> 00:14:34,196 Speaker 1: kind of information about events from about nineteen ninety six forward, 237 00:14:34,236 --> 00:14:35,916 Speaker 1: and there are some reasons for why that is in 238 00:14:35,996 --> 00:14:41,796 Speaker 1: this particular cash of sources, but the earlier period does 239 00:14:41,916 --> 00:14:45,556 Speaker 1: tell us a couple of things that make me concerned 240 00:14:45,596 --> 00:14:48,156 Speaker 1: about the present moment in the ways that you've just described. 241 00:14:48,236 --> 00:14:51,716 Speaker 1: One of them is that when there is this moment 242 00:14:51,716 --> 00:14:57,596 Speaker 1: of perceived sympathetic administration that has not assuaged these activists, 243 00:14:57,596 --> 00:14:59,476 Speaker 1: and in fact that has been seen as a call 244 00:14:59,516 --> 00:15:02,276 Speaker 1: to arms. The other one is that there have always 245 00:15:02,316 --> 00:15:05,636 Speaker 1: been sort of two spheres of activity in this movement. 246 00:15:06,196 --> 00:15:10,596 Speaker 1: One of them is the sort of mass mobilizations like 247 00:15:10,676 --> 00:15:19,516 Speaker 1: Charlottesville marches, political campaigns, organizing events, recruitment drives, campus campaigns 248 00:15:19,916 --> 00:15:23,876 Speaker 1: to recruit students, speed was public speaking to ours, things 249 00:15:23,876 --> 00:15:28,476 Speaker 1: like that. The other one is this massive network of 250 00:15:28,676 --> 00:15:34,756 Speaker 1: paramilitary camps, cell style terror, illegal communication in many cases, 251 00:15:34,916 --> 00:15:38,956 Speaker 1: and different kinds of crime ranging from assassination to the 252 00:15:39,716 --> 00:15:44,716 Speaker 1: obtaining of stolen military weapons and material to mass violence attacks. 253 00:15:45,316 --> 00:15:47,796 Speaker 1: In the period that I study, those two spheres of 254 00:15:47,796 --> 00:15:51,076 Speaker 1: activity happened at the same time, and often there were 255 00:15:51,116 --> 00:15:53,956 Speaker 1: people who crossed the line between those two kinds of activism. 256 00:15:54,196 --> 00:15:57,036 Speaker 1: And we're undertaking both of those things as a coordinated 257 00:15:57,116 --> 00:15:59,996 Speaker 1: kind of kind of campaign. The fact that we can't 258 00:16:00,116 --> 00:16:03,756 Speaker 1: see that underground in real time doesn't mean that that's 259 00:16:03,796 --> 00:16:08,036 Speaker 1: not happenings, as we are noticing more of these above 260 00:16:08,076 --> 00:16:12,076 Speaker 1: board events and in fact, this wave of violent attacks 261 00:16:12,116 --> 00:16:15,356 Speaker 1: that you describe, which I might also add Dylan Roofs 262 00:16:15,356 --> 00:16:21,196 Speaker 1: shooting in Charleston absolutely, I oh no, yeah, well, also 263 00:16:21,236 --> 00:16:25,436 Speaker 1: include Penders Bravik in Norway. Yes. Putting those all together 264 00:16:25,476 --> 00:16:27,916 Speaker 1: in one story is very, very important because then we 265 00:16:27,916 --> 00:16:30,116 Speaker 1: can start to say, oh, wow, this is a wave 266 00:16:30,156 --> 00:16:32,556 Speaker 1: we're talking about. You know, three attempted attacks in the 267 00:16:32,636 --> 00:16:35,876 Speaker 1: last six months. Um. A lot of these are mass attacks, 268 00:16:35,916 --> 00:16:37,956 Speaker 1: a lot of these are people who are using the 269 00:16:37,996 --> 00:16:41,836 Speaker 1: same coordinated messaging. UM. That indicates to me that we 270 00:16:41,876 --> 00:16:45,116 Speaker 1: do have this two spheres model of activism going again, 271 00:16:45,236 --> 00:16:47,996 Speaker 1: even if I can't see the sources in real time 272 00:16:48,036 --> 00:16:51,436 Speaker 1: to be able to describe it in detail. One element 273 00:16:51,516 --> 00:16:53,876 Speaker 1: that I think we need to also add to your 274 00:16:54,116 --> 00:17:00,836 Speaker 1: depiction of people's common narrative of the Vietnam War having 275 00:17:00,876 --> 00:17:03,916 Speaker 1: been lost because of betrayal by the American government and 276 00:17:04,476 --> 00:17:07,916 Speaker 1: anti communism, and they're bringing together of clan members and 277 00:17:08,036 --> 00:17:11,996 Speaker 1: neo Nazis, and other is the religious component. Would you 278 00:17:12,036 --> 00:17:19,556 Speaker 1: say something about the apocalyptic religious elements of the combined 279 00:17:20,196 --> 00:17:23,516 Speaker 1: viewpoints that are coming together around nineteen eighty three in 280 00:17:23,556 --> 00:17:27,636 Speaker 1: this revolutionary movement. Sure, there are kind of two major 281 00:17:27,876 --> 00:17:32,196 Speaker 1: theological innovations of this movement. One of them is Norse paganism, 282 00:17:32,276 --> 00:17:37,596 Speaker 1: so Odinism and other kind of neopagan ideologies that put 283 00:17:37,636 --> 00:17:40,396 Speaker 1: forward the greatness of white cultures in different ways. So 284 00:17:40,516 --> 00:17:44,596 Speaker 1: the idea is to take Nordic mythology, of which Odin 285 00:17:44,716 --> 00:17:48,156 Speaker 1: is a central figure, and to say, ah, Nordic mythology 286 00:17:48,636 --> 00:17:52,636 Speaker 1: equals white people's mythology, something like that exactly so, and 287 00:17:52,716 --> 00:17:55,316 Speaker 1: it comes with a whole cultural apparatus of things like 288 00:17:55,356 --> 00:17:58,556 Speaker 1: writing in ruins and using the Viking imagery and things 289 00:17:58,596 --> 00:18:01,916 Speaker 1: like that. The other one is Christian identity, and I 290 00:18:01,916 --> 00:18:05,996 Speaker 1: think this one is more impactful for a couple of 291 00:18:05,996 --> 00:18:08,676 Speaker 1: different reasons. One is that it has a very clear 292 00:18:08,836 --> 00:18:11,836 Speaker 1: role for women, who turn out to be enormously important 293 00:18:11,876 --> 00:18:16,236 Speaker 1: to motivating this movement and holding it together. The other 294 00:18:16,556 --> 00:18:19,876 Speaker 1: is for its depiction of the end of the world. 295 00:18:20,476 --> 00:18:23,916 Speaker 1: So the nineteen eighties in general are a time of 296 00:18:24,116 --> 00:18:27,356 Speaker 1: deep fixation on the end of the world. There's deep, 297 00:18:27,396 --> 00:18:32,396 Speaker 1: deep apocalyptic belief kind of across American culture, including in 298 00:18:32,516 --> 00:18:36,596 Speaker 1: evangelical churches, which are recruiting much larger congregations and much 299 00:18:36,596 --> 00:18:41,396 Speaker 1: more politicized congregations in the nineteen eighties. Now in evangelical Christianity, 300 00:18:41,476 --> 00:18:44,076 Speaker 1: that comes with a belief in a day called the Rapture, 301 00:18:44,436 --> 00:18:46,796 Speaker 1: which is a moment when all of the faithful are 302 00:18:46,836 --> 00:18:50,796 Speaker 1: supposed to be peacefully transported to Heaven before this big, 303 00:18:50,876 --> 00:18:54,876 Speaker 1: bloody last battle that will come right before the return 304 00:18:54,916 --> 00:18:59,596 Speaker 1: of Christ. So Christian identity has no Rapture, but it 305 00:18:59,636 --> 00:19:03,116 Speaker 1: does have the battle. So what Christian identity does is 306 00:19:03,636 --> 00:19:07,436 Speaker 1: turn its believers into either survivalists. You either have to 307 00:19:07,436 --> 00:19:11,116 Speaker 1: survive this end times before or Jesus returns, or you 308 00:19:11,156 --> 00:19:13,476 Speaker 1: have to become a soldier of God to clear the 309 00:19:13,516 --> 00:19:17,636 Speaker 1: world of non white populations before you know, before Christ 310 00:19:17,676 --> 00:19:20,156 Speaker 1: can return to the world. So what it does is 311 00:19:20,196 --> 00:19:24,716 Speaker 1: transfigure this whole host of social issues that are important 312 00:19:24,716 --> 00:19:28,676 Speaker 1: to the white power movement into a holy war. And 313 00:19:28,756 --> 00:19:30,796 Speaker 1: one way to think about this is that it comes 314 00:19:30,796 --> 00:19:34,436 Speaker 1: with this intense sense of emergency about something that people 315 00:19:34,436 --> 00:19:38,596 Speaker 1: talk about very casual, casually in American culture, which is 316 00:19:38,996 --> 00:19:42,516 Speaker 1: this kind of imagined moment of demographic change when the 317 00:19:42,556 --> 00:19:45,996 Speaker 1: country will switch over from a majority white population to 318 00:19:46,236 --> 00:19:50,236 Speaker 1: something else, And as different communities begin to make that 319 00:19:50,276 --> 00:19:52,796 Speaker 1: transition in the eighties and the nineties, these activists get 320 00:19:52,796 --> 00:19:57,396 Speaker 1: more and more preoccupied with this. For people in the 321 00:19:57,436 --> 00:20:03,076 Speaker 1: white power movement, the issues that might be conservative or 322 00:20:03,196 --> 00:20:08,276 Speaker 1: understandable to us as conservative, like opposing immigration, opposing abortion, 323 00:20:09,156 --> 00:20:14,796 Speaker 1: GBT rights, opposing feminism, being in favor of racial segregation, 324 00:20:14,876 --> 00:20:18,196 Speaker 1: or freedom of association, all of that stuff for white 325 00:20:18,196 --> 00:20:23,276 Speaker 1: power activists is attached to this deep preoccupation with the 326 00:20:23,276 --> 00:20:27,276 Speaker 1: future of the race through the production of white babies. 327 00:20:27,716 --> 00:20:32,316 Speaker 1: So it's not for white power activists just they oppose 328 00:20:32,396 --> 00:20:34,916 Speaker 1: abortion because it's a conservative issue or because they have 329 00:20:34,956 --> 00:20:39,396 Speaker 1: concerns about unborn life. It's that they oppose abortion because 330 00:20:39,436 --> 00:20:42,436 Speaker 1: abortion is one thing that is threatening the white birth rate, 331 00:20:42,756 --> 00:20:46,676 Speaker 1: along with immigration integration, which they think will result in 332 00:20:46,716 --> 00:20:48,836 Speaker 1: the birth of non white children or mixed race children 333 00:20:48,836 --> 00:20:53,436 Speaker 1: who they see as non human. LGBT rights they think 334 00:20:53,476 --> 00:20:58,036 Speaker 1: will take white women out of the work of birthing children. 335 00:20:58,036 --> 00:21:00,196 Speaker 1: They're worried about feminism because they think women should be 336 00:21:00,196 --> 00:21:03,516 Speaker 1: at home raising children. This whole production of white children. 337 00:21:03,596 --> 00:21:05,916 Speaker 1: Thing is like the glue that holds together this whole 338 00:21:05,916 --> 00:21:08,036 Speaker 1: belief system. And in order for it to make sense, 339 00:21:08,076 --> 00:21:11,516 Speaker 1: you really have to think about how vivid and immediate 340 00:21:11,596 --> 00:21:14,916 Speaker 1: this sense of emergency is to these activists. They feel 341 00:21:14,956 --> 00:21:18,516 Speaker 1: this as an apocalyptic threat, so not as kind of 342 00:21:18,556 --> 00:21:21,196 Speaker 1: like a soft demographic change that's going to come at 343 00:21:21,196 --> 00:21:34,676 Speaker 1: some point. We'll be right back, okay. So you get 344 00:21:34,716 --> 00:21:41,756 Speaker 1: this attempt to unify these disparate, potentially disparate social groups 345 00:21:42,196 --> 00:21:45,676 Speaker 1: around a common vision and a kind of a common ideology. 346 00:21:46,276 --> 00:21:49,996 Speaker 1: It's happening in the middle of the nineteen eighties, and 347 00:21:50,276 --> 00:21:56,596 Speaker 1: it then leads to some rather extraordinary consequences, most saliently 348 00:21:56,756 --> 00:21:58,876 Speaker 1: in your book. And this is the kind of climactic 349 00:21:58,956 --> 00:22:03,836 Speaker 1: point in your book, the nineteen ninety five bombing of 350 00:22:03,876 --> 00:22:08,116 Speaker 1: the Oklahoma City Federal Building by Timothy McVay and a 351 00:22:08,196 --> 00:22:10,996 Speaker 1: group of others, And will say more about that group. 352 00:22:11,356 --> 00:22:15,276 Speaker 1: How did that spectacular bombing spectacular in the sense that 353 00:22:15,316 --> 00:22:18,956 Speaker 1: it was a spectacle. It created a spectacle in which 354 00:22:19,036 --> 00:22:22,716 Speaker 1: nearly one hundred and seventy people were killed grow out 355 00:22:22,756 --> 00:22:25,196 Speaker 1: of this movement? How did the movement go from as 356 00:22:25,196 --> 00:22:29,316 Speaker 1: it were, a group of possibly crazy looking peripheral people 357 00:22:29,836 --> 00:22:33,236 Speaker 1: to a cohesive movement that could produce an attack like this. 358 00:22:34,996 --> 00:22:37,196 Speaker 1: That's a great question, and the short answer is through 359 00:22:37,276 --> 00:22:41,956 Speaker 1: women during the nineteen eighties. What unfolds is not sort 360 00:22:41,996 --> 00:22:49,316 Speaker 1: of a popularly understood collection of shrieking and ignorant activists 361 00:22:49,356 --> 00:22:54,156 Speaker 1: in backwoods something, you know, doing their own thing and 362 00:22:54,276 --> 00:22:57,476 Speaker 1: fighting with each other. What we see is actually a 363 00:22:57,676 --> 00:23:02,196 Speaker 1: broad ranging social movement. It includes men, women, and children. 364 00:23:02,396 --> 00:23:06,996 Speaker 1: It includes people in all regions of the country, including rural, suburban, 365 00:23:07,076 --> 00:23:09,836 Speaker 1: and urban spaces, and include people of a lot of 366 00:23:09,876 --> 00:23:13,636 Speaker 1: different age groups, people with education ranging from high school 367 00:23:13,716 --> 00:23:19,596 Speaker 1: dropout and to homeschool to I mean rocket launch engineer 368 00:23:19,716 --> 00:23:24,956 Speaker 1: kind of people. Um. Religious leaders and felons and civilians, 369 00:23:25,076 --> 00:23:29,956 Speaker 1: veterans and active duty troops. So it's really a sprint 370 00:23:29,996 --> 00:23:35,516 Speaker 1: group of people at group for everybody. Yeah, well done. No, No, 371 00:23:35,556 --> 00:23:37,556 Speaker 1: not at all. It's a very diverse group of people 372 00:23:37,556 --> 00:23:41,636 Speaker 1: except racially, yes, um. And it even has multiple faiths 373 00:23:41,676 --> 00:23:44,476 Speaker 1: in it. As we talked about, so that UM, that 374 00:23:44,676 --> 00:23:48,636 Speaker 1: structure UM, together with this turn against the state, leads 375 00:23:48,636 --> 00:23:51,596 Speaker 1: them to adopt a strategy called leaderless resistance. In nineteen 376 00:23:51,676 --> 00:23:53,916 Speaker 1: eighty three, so talked to us about leaderless resistance, because 377 00:23:53,956 --> 00:23:57,116 Speaker 1: that's hugely important for the present moment as well. It 378 00:23:57,276 --> 00:24:01,716 Speaker 1: is leaderless resistance is easy to understand now as just 379 00:24:01,956 --> 00:24:04,996 Speaker 1: cell style terrorism. The idea is that you're going to 380 00:24:05,516 --> 00:24:12,516 Speaker 1: um indoctrinate and shape activist and maybe small cohorts of cells, 381 00:24:12,796 --> 00:24:15,596 Speaker 1: like one to six people, maybe the occasional larger cell 382 00:24:15,636 --> 00:24:18,596 Speaker 1: of twelve people, maybe just one to two activists. You're 383 00:24:18,596 --> 00:24:22,596 Speaker 1: going to get them all aligned towards the same targets, 384 00:24:22,636 --> 00:24:25,916 Speaker 1: and then they're going to act independently without communication with 385 00:24:26,036 --> 00:24:29,676 Speaker 1: leadership and without communication with each other. Now, there's actually 386 00:24:29,676 --> 00:24:32,716 Speaker 1: a historical reason for why they adopt this strategy, which 387 00:24:32,756 --> 00:24:36,156 Speaker 1: is that in the earlier clan in the fifties and 388 00:24:36,196 --> 00:24:38,356 Speaker 1: the sixties, the Third Era clan, which is the one 389 00:24:38,356 --> 00:24:42,156 Speaker 1: that opposes the Civil Rights movement, the federal government had 390 00:24:42,236 --> 00:24:46,956 Speaker 1: sent in a ton of informants under the FBI's Counterintelligence 391 00:24:46,996 --> 00:24:51,156 Speaker 1: Project and other initiatives, and clansmen got really really frustrated 392 00:24:51,236 --> 00:24:53,116 Speaker 1: with how many of these people were getting into their 393 00:24:53,116 --> 00:24:55,436 Speaker 1: meetings and messing up their stuff and getting people arrested 394 00:24:55,476 --> 00:24:57,236 Speaker 1: and turning over mailing lists and all kinds of things 395 00:24:57,236 --> 00:25:01,276 Speaker 1: like that. So leaderless resistance is actually implemented in large 396 00:25:01,316 --> 00:25:05,916 Speaker 1: part to foil surveillance, and it has the other kind 397 00:25:05,956 --> 00:25:11,236 Speaker 1: of immediate benefit of foiling core prosecution, but the lasting 398 00:25:11,276 --> 00:25:14,596 Speaker 1: impact of it has actually been to foil public understanding 399 00:25:14,876 --> 00:25:18,436 Speaker 1: because what happens is leaderless resistance plays right into this 400 00:25:18,476 --> 00:25:23,356 Speaker 1: sort of media narrative about lone wolf violence or crazy 401 00:25:23,396 --> 00:25:26,716 Speaker 1: people or a few bad apples or mad gunmen, right 402 00:25:26,796 --> 00:25:29,676 Speaker 1: where we get a lot of different stories about one 403 00:25:29,756 --> 00:25:32,436 Speaker 1: person committing an act of violence and don't get the 404 00:25:32,476 --> 00:25:35,436 Speaker 1: apparatus to put those things together into the same history. 405 00:25:36,396 --> 00:25:38,956 Speaker 1: So leaderless resistance is one of the ways that we 406 00:25:38,996 --> 00:25:41,676 Speaker 1: get from the formation of the movement to Oklahoma City. 407 00:25:42,436 --> 00:25:46,716 Speaker 1: The other one is the implementation of computer social networking. 408 00:25:47,956 --> 00:25:51,916 Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty three eighty four, they implement a series 409 00:25:52,036 --> 00:25:55,636 Speaker 1: of code word accessed message board is called liberty net. 410 00:25:56,676 --> 00:25:59,036 Speaker 1: This is before the Internet, so technically this is not 411 00:25:59,076 --> 00:26:01,356 Speaker 1: the Internet, but we can understand this is like the 412 00:26:01,396 --> 00:26:04,396 Speaker 1: proto Internet. It's it's networked computers that can speak to 413 00:26:04,396 --> 00:26:07,076 Speaker 1: one another. And also, by the way, it takes the 414 00:26:07,076 --> 00:26:09,316 Speaker 1: FBI like two years to crack the code and see 415 00:26:09,316 --> 00:26:12,236 Speaker 1: what they're posting, kind of amazing that white power might 416 00:26:12,276 --> 00:26:15,476 Speaker 1: be might be the very first social movement to have 417 00:26:15,636 --> 00:26:21,116 Speaker 1: actively exploited computer technology in that way. Yeah, not only that, 418 00:26:21,356 --> 00:26:24,236 Speaker 1: but the way that they do this is very much 419 00:26:24,276 --> 00:26:28,476 Speaker 1: like Facebook, long before Facebook was invented. What they post 420 00:26:28,596 --> 00:26:31,396 Speaker 1: to these message boards includes a lot of you know, 421 00:26:31,596 --> 00:26:36,836 Speaker 1: practical content like assassination lists and you know, propaganda messaging 422 00:26:36,836 --> 00:26:39,356 Speaker 1: and things like that, but it also includes things like 423 00:26:39,596 --> 00:26:42,716 Speaker 1: personal ads. So what these boards are meant to do 424 00:26:42,836 --> 00:26:45,636 Speaker 1: is to connect activists together in a movement in order 425 00:26:45,716 --> 00:26:49,676 Speaker 1: to motivate this cell style activism. So it's in a way, 426 00:26:49,716 --> 00:26:52,076 Speaker 1: if you're going to have leader list resistance, you need 427 00:26:52,116 --> 00:26:54,436 Speaker 1: cells and they need to communicate with each other somehow, 428 00:26:54,476 --> 00:26:57,476 Speaker 1: even if not in coordination, and then the message sports 429 00:26:57,516 --> 00:27:01,116 Speaker 1: become the mechanism in your story for how that happens. Yeah, well, 430 00:27:01,116 --> 00:27:03,636 Speaker 1: you also need a big You need the social movement 431 00:27:03,636 --> 00:27:06,956 Speaker 1: to share resources and also to connect everybody in common 432 00:27:06,996 --> 00:27:09,436 Speaker 1: culture such that they can understand what the tarts are 433 00:27:09,476 --> 00:27:12,396 Speaker 1: supposed to be. It's interesting that Timothy McVeigh I think 434 00:27:12,436 --> 00:27:14,676 Speaker 1: you show in your book, also engage in one of 435 00:27:14,676 --> 00:27:18,036 Speaker 1: these models of get some resources by robbing somebody, right, 436 00:27:18,036 --> 00:27:20,756 Speaker 1: He and a couple of the associates robbed a gun 437 00:27:20,756 --> 00:27:23,676 Speaker 1: dealer to get the money to have the resources to 438 00:27:23,756 --> 00:27:28,796 Speaker 1: buy to buy the material to blow up the federal building. Yes, 439 00:27:29,676 --> 00:27:32,356 Speaker 1: and that's a strategy from the order, and also from 440 00:27:32,396 --> 00:27:34,996 Speaker 1: a novel called The Turner Diaries, which kind of becomes 441 00:27:36,236 --> 00:27:39,436 Speaker 1: a I mean, it's it's important as a cultural text, 442 00:27:39,876 --> 00:27:42,836 Speaker 1: but and as a manual of operations. But it's also 443 00:27:42,916 --> 00:27:45,796 Speaker 1: kind of a cultural loadstar from the movement in the 444 00:27:45,836 --> 00:27:48,676 Speaker 1: sense that it does that work of explaining to everybody 445 00:27:49,116 --> 00:27:50,796 Speaker 1: what they're trying to do and how they're going to 446 00:27:50,876 --> 00:27:53,916 Speaker 1: do it. I was fascinated reading your book about the 447 00:27:53,956 --> 00:27:57,276 Speaker 1: centrality of this novel, The Turner Diaries, which seem to 448 00:27:57,316 --> 00:28:01,676 Speaker 1: include in your account actually a blueprint even for blowing 449 00:28:01,756 --> 00:28:04,076 Speaker 1: up a federal building with a truck bomb. I mean, 450 00:28:04,196 --> 00:28:08,796 Speaker 1: very very detailed, sort of sort of envisioning process. Yeah, 451 00:28:09,316 --> 00:28:11,156 Speaker 1: a little bit about that about that novel, because again 452 00:28:11,236 --> 00:28:12,516 Speaker 1: it was a novel that I had not heard of 453 00:28:12,556 --> 00:28:16,156 Speaker 1: before reading your book. Oh okay, So it's a novel 454 00:28:16,236 --> 00:28:18,716 Speaker 1: that's published in Cereal in the late nineteen seventies and 455 00:28:18,756 --> 00:28:22,596 Speaker 1: then comes out in paperback. And it is very difficult 456 00:28:22,796 --> 00:28:28,316 Speaker 1: to overstate how important this novel is to the movement. 457 00:28:29,036 --> 00:28:32,676 Speaker 1: The Turner Diaries shows up everywhere, so McVeigh sells it 458 00:28:32,716 --> 00:28:36,236 Speaker 1: for a while on the gun show circuit. The Order 459 00:28:36,276 --> 00:28:38,196 Speaker 1: that I talked about a moment ago keeps a stack 460 00:28:38,236 --> 00:28:40,596 Speaker 1: of them in the bunk house. Other white power groups 461 00:28:40,636 --> 00:28:44,756 Speaker 1: distribute them at paramilitary training. It shows up in bookstores 462 00:28:44,876 --> 00:28:47,756 Speaker 1: and other places where the movement is trying to recruit 463 00:28:48,076 --> 00:28:51,996 Speaker 1: far aways South Africa, and it's it's mentioned in advertisements 464 00:28:51,996 --> 00:28:55,276 Speaker 1: and all kinds of different white power publications. And I 465 00:28:55,316 --> 00:28:57,316 Speaker 1: think one of the reasons it's so important is it 466 00:28:57,356 --> 00:29:01,836 Speaker 1: sets out to answer a question that is sort of 467 00:29:02,796 --> 00:29:05,196 Speaker 1: baffling on its face, and that actually has stood in 468 00:29:05,196 --> 00:29:08,076 Speaker 1: the way of prosecution more than once, which is, how 469 00:29:08,116 --> 00:29:11,716 Speaker 1: could this fringe movement right. It's a very small movement 470 00:29:12,276 --> 00:29:15,876 Speaker 1: possibly hope to do what it's setting out to do, 471 00:29:15,996 --> 00:29:19,636 Speaker 1: which is to overthrow the United States, the most militarized 472 00:29:19,716 --> 00:29:23,916 Speaker 1: superstate in world history. This is a kind of baffling 473 00:29:23,996 --> 00:29:26,756 Speaker 1: problem for these activists. And in the novel, I think 474 00:29:26,756 --> 00:29:29,756 Speaker 1: he describes it as a nat trying to assassinate an elephant. 475 00:29:30,876 --> 00:29:33,796 Speaker 1: So the imaginative work that the Turner Diaries does in 476 00:29:34,036 --> 00:29:37,236 Speaker 1: laying out how such a thing could be possible is 477 00:29:37,276 --> 00:29:40,316 Speaker 1: really important for this movement in terms of being able 478 00:29:40,396 --> 00:29:44,036 Speaker 1: to have an imaginary in which this could happen. And 479 00:29:44,116 --> 00:29:47,156 Speaker 1: it tells us something very very important and alarming about 480 00:29:47,156 --> 00:29:49,236 Speaker 1: the kind of violence we're seeing today, which is that 481 00:29:49,836 --> 00:29:53,836 Speaker 1: acts like Christchurch or the Pittsburgh shooting or the Oklahoma 482 00:29:53,876 --> 00:29:57,516 Speaker 1: City bombing are not imagined to be the endpoint of 483 00:29:57,556 --> 00:30:01,036 Speaker 1: this activism. The endpoint is not the act of violence. 484 00:30:01,596 --> 00:30:04,396 Speaker 1: These are supposed to be political acts of violence that 485 00:30:04,596 --> 00:30:08,476 Speaker 1: white power activists hope will awaken other white people to 486 00:30:08,796 --> 00:30:12,196 Speaker 1: what as the self evident state of emergency facing the 487 00:30:12,236 --> 00:30:15,636 Speaker 1: white race, and they think that that will eventually lead 488 00:30:15,676 --> 00:30:20,076 Speaker 1: to a armed uprising that will create an all white world. 489 00:30:20,516 --> 00:30:24,556 Speaker 1: And the turnidiaries imagines this very violently and very vividly, 490 00:30:25,156 --> 00:30:28,836 Speaker 1: and it includes things like like many nuclear weapon blasts, 491 00:30:29,356 --> 00:30:32,516 Speaker 1: the forced march of people of color out of the 492 00:30:32,596 --> 00:30:36,636 Speaker 1: United States, and the eventual genocide of all populations except 493 00:30:36,676 --> 00:30:40,476 Speaker 1: for white people in the world. And so then Oklahoma 494 00:30:40,476 --> 00:30:44,876 Speaker 1: City does happen and the bombing does occur, and then 495 00:30:45,156 --> 00:30:49,996 Speaker 1: from the standpoint of public perception, instead of the world 496 00:30:50,036 --> 00:30:56,196 Speaker 1: sitting up and taking notice and ordinary concerned Americans saying, 497 00:30:56,476 --> 00:31:00,996 Speaker 1: there's this powerful, dangerous social movement that's seeking revolution and 498 00:31:01,356 --> 00:31:04,076 Speaker 1: is using terrorist techniques, and it's just blown up a 499 00:31:04,076 --> 00:31:07,596 Speaker 1: building and killed a lot of people. We get, basically 500 00:31:07,796 --> 00:31:11,436 Speaker 1: the opposite. We get a narrative of this was a 501 00:31:11,436 --> 00:31:14,796 Speaker 1: few people. I remember a narrative that, you know, timoth 502 00:31:14,916 --> 00:31:18,116 Speaker 1: Kay McVeigh was so radical that even the militias wouldn't 503 00:31:18,156 --> 00:31:20,796 Speaker 1: have him as a member, thereby implying that maybe these 504 00:31:20,796 --> 00:31:25,196 Speaker 1: militias actually aren't so bad after all. McVeigh doesn't put 505 00:31:25,236 --> 00:31:27,316 Speaker 1: up much of a defensive trial, and then he allows 506 00:31:27,396 --> 00:31:31,836 Speaker 1: himself to be executed by not challenging the death sentence, 507 00:31:32,236 --> 00:31:35,356 Speaker 1: and he's executed in record time, and it says, though 508 00:31:35,476 --> 00:31:39,236 Speaker 1: the story disappears, why did this happen? I mean to 509 00:31:39,276 --> 00:31:43,916 Speaker 1: take a comparison. After September eleventh, whatever skepticism there might 510 00:31:43,956 --> 00:31:47,876 Speaker 1: have been about the capacities of terrorists operating the name 511 00:31:47,876 --> 00:31:51,476 Speaker 1: of Islam to change global affairs was eliminated, and a 512 00:31:51,596 --> 00:31:55,516 Speaker 1: generation of experts or pseudo experts in some cases, but nevertheless, 513 00:31:55,516 --> 00:31:58,196 Speaker 1: a generation of concerned people who cared about this was 514 00:31:58,236 --> 00:32:02,236 Speaker 1: born in a moment and created an industry that hasn't 515 00:32:02,276 --> 00:32:06,076 Speaker 1: gone away since. In contrast, in radical contrast, in the 516 00:32:06,116 --> 00:32:09,716 Speaker 1: aftermath of the Oklahoma City bombing, things sort of don't 517 00:32:09,756 --> 00:32:12,276 Speaker 1: happen in that way. Talk about why, because I think 518 00:32:12,276 --> 00:32:17,116 Speaker 1: it's so important. The Oklahoma City bombing represents the largest 519 00:32:17,116 --> 00:32:20,956 Speaker 1: deliberate mass casualty in the United States between Pearl Harbor 520 00:32:21,076 --> 00:32:23,916 Speaker 1: and nine to eleven, and the fact that we don't 521 00:32:23,956 --> 00:32:25,756 Speaker 1: have a narrative about it in the ways that you've 522 00:32:25,796 --> 00:32:30,956 Speaker 1: outlined is both alarming and surprising, given how thoroughly these 523 00:32:31,356 --> 00:32:33,996 Speaker 1: events that I cover in the book were talked about 524 00:32:34,076 --> 00:32:36,596 Speaker 1: at the time. So if you think about something like 525 00:32:36,636 --> 00:32:40,476 Speaker 1: a shooting at Greensboro, people knew about that. That was 526 00:32:40,556 --> 00:32:45,436 Speaker 1: front page news. Yeah, that made the front pages of many, many, 527 00:32:45,476 --> 00:32:49,396 Speaker 1: many newspapers and eventually also became a Saturday night life 528 00:32:49,396 --> 00:32:52,476 Speaker 1: sketch like that was in the zeitgeist. But somehow we 529 00:32:52,556 --> 00:32:56,236 Speaker 1: haven't connected that event with Oklahoma City. We haven't connected 530 00:32:56,396 --> 00:32:58,796 Speaker 1: either of them with a narrative about a social movement. 531 00:32:59,156 --> 00:33:01,116 Speaker 1: We don't have really a durable way at all of 532 00:33:01,236 --> 00:33:04,836 Speaker 1: thinking about how to narrate these events. So with Oklahoma City, 533 00:33:04,876 --> 00:33:07,116 Speaker 1: one of the things that happens is that the federal 534 00:33:07,156 --> 00:33:10,996 Speaker 1: government tries to do a big prosecution of these activists 535 00:33:11,036 --> 00:33:15,236 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty seven eighty eight in Fort Smith, Arkansas. 536 00:33:15,676 --> 00:33:19,396 Speaker 1: And so it's a federal trial on charges including seditious conspiracy. 537 00:33:20,756 --> 00:33:25,076 Speaker 1: Seditious conspiracy in this case was wholly evident. The jury 538 00:33:25,236 --> 00:33:29,476 Speaker 1: heard testimony about white power activists plotting to poison the 539 00:33:29,516 --> 00:33:32,196 Speaker 1: water supply of a major city with cyanide. They seized 540 00:33:32,236 --> 00:33:37,876 Speaker 1: thirty gallons of cyanide. The jurors saw laundry hampers full 541 00:33:37,956 --> 00:33:41,436 Speaker 1: of illegal weapons and material pushed through the courtroom, and 542 00:33:41,436 --> 00:33:44,236 Speaker 1: we're talking about things like anti tank weapons and claim 543 00:33:44,236 --> 00:33:47,156 Speaker 1: war minds. They saw the writings of these activists where 544 00:33:47,156 --> 00:33:49,916 Speaker 1: they had said that they were involved in seditious conspiracy. 545 00:33:49,956 --> 00:33:54,196 Speaker 1: It goes on and on like this. That trial got 546 00:33:54,276 --> 00:33:57,996 Speaker 1: no convictions. So you get these acquittals in these cases 547 00:33:58,156 --> 00:34:00,716 Speaker 1: of trying people for trying to overthrow the government. I 548 00:34:00,796 --> 00:34:04,116 Speaker 1: get that that's a part of the disappearance of a 549 00:34:04,556 --> 00:34:08,436 Speaker 1: story that there's a coherent movement say more about how yeah, 550 00:34:08,476 --> 00:34:11,116 Speaker 1: go ahead. More than that, what emerges from it is 551 00:34:11,116 --> 00:34:15,036 Speaker 1: that it is a disaster for the prosecuting agencies, the 552 00:34:15,716 --> 00:34:20,556 Speaker 1: atf DOGA, FBI. Everyone is embarrassed by this entire thing. 553 00:34:21,556 --> 00:34:25,476 Speaker 1: And afterward there's a policy institutionalized at the FBI that 554 00:34:25,556 --> 00:34:29,316 Speaker 1: says they will make no attempt to tie white power 555 00:34:29,396 --> 00:34:34,396 Speaker 1: violence to a movement. They will prosecute only individual crimes. 556 00:34:34,796 --> 00:34:38,396 Speaker 1: They will not attempt to prosecute as part of a movement. 557 00:34:38,836 --> 00:34:41,276 Speaker 1: So you have a piece of paper written at the 558 00:34:41,356 --> 00:34:44,116 Speaker 1: end of this Sedition trial that when the Timothy mcveay 559 00:34:44,156 --> 00:34:46,876 Speaker 1: case comes up, says they will not try to prosecute 560 00:34:46,916 --> 00:34:50,316 Speaker 1: as part of a movement. And why do they say 561 00:34:50,396 --> 00:34:53,156 Speaker 1: in this document that they won't do that, because because 562 00:34:53,196 --> 00:34:55,316 Speaker 1: it's a no win proposition that they thought that was 563 00:34:55,396 --> 00:34:58,356 Speaker 1: why they lost those prosecutions. It's a kind of tactical judgment. 564 00:34:58,796 --> 00:35:01,476 Speaker 1: It's a tactical judgment and a recognition that there's not 565 00:35:01,556 --> 00:35:05,356 Speaker 1: a sufficient public will to prosecute white power violence as 566 00:35:05,396 --> 00:35:06,916 Speaker 1: the work of a movement. And I mean, if anything, 567 00:35:06,956 --> 00:35:09,396 Speaker 1: that's only deepened by the events of the early nineteen 568 00:35:09,476 --> 00:35:13,356 Speaker 1: ninety Ridge and Ridge and Waco and the sieges, where 569 00:35:13,516 --> 00:35:19,116 Speaker 1: where the state very clearly oversteps in and uses militarized 570 00:35:19,196 --> 00:35:22,236 Speaker 1: violence against against white power activists in one case and 571 00:35:23,636 --> 00:35:27,076 Speaker 1: followers of the branch Davidian compounded the other case. So 572 00:35:27,556 --> 00:35:28,956 Speaker 1: the FBI is a part of the story and the 573 00:35:28,996 --> 00:35:33,476 Speaker 1: deal Department of Justice. They decline to treat white white 574 00:35:33,476 --> 00:35:37,716 Speaker 1: power or white supremacy movements as a coordinated and coherent 575 00:35:38,476 --> 00:35:41,956 Speaker 1: set of terrorist groups even after Oklahoma City. Why does 576 00:35:41,996 --> 00:35:43,916 Speaker 1: the rest of the world go along with that? Why 577 00:35:43,956 --> 00:35:48,156 Speaker 1: does the media accept that instead of pushing against the 578 00:35:48,676 --> 00:35:51,956 Speaker 1: government's failure to construct a narrative. I think that there 579 00:35:52,116 --> 00:35:56,236 Speaker 1: is a very durable narrative form about the lone wolf gunman. 580 00:35:56,716 --> 00:36:01,036 Speaker 1: And when there is a mass violent event that is 581 00:36:01,076 --> 00:36:03,756 Speaker 1: carried out by a white perpetrator, we almost always see 582 00:36:03,756 --> 00:36:06,356 Speaker 1: the same story about it. It almost always goes to 583 00:36:06,676 --> 00:36:11,396 Speaker 1: lone wolf mental health and sort of like a psychological profile, 584 00:36:12,036 --> 00:36:18,436 Speaker 1: rather than going to connections and ideology and politics, even 585 00:36:18,516 --> 00:36:22,796 Speaker 1: when there is clear clear evidence that these are white 586 00:36:22,796 --> 00:36:24,836 Speaker 1: power gunmen. So it's a kind of denial, and it 587 00:36:24,916 --> 00:36:27,436 Speaker 1: may be an individual psychological denial, or it may be 588 00:36:27,516 --> 00:36:32,236 Speaker 1: a white people wide social denial. I mean, my assumption 589 00:36:32,396 --> 00:36:36,156 Speaker 1: is that you know that many African Americans would not 590 00:36:36,316 --> 00:36:38,556 Speaker 1: instinctively think, oh, it must be a lone wolf, but 591 00:36:38,676 --> 00:36:41,396 Speaker 1: might think they are organized people who are who are 592 00:36:41,476 --> 00:36:44,116 Speaker 1: out to get us. Well, not only that, but the 593 00:36:44,236 --> 00:36:48,116 Speaker 1: term lone wolf comes from this movement, So we are 594 00:36:48,316 --> 00:36:51,596 Speaker 1: allowing this movement to disappear. Every time we say that phrase. 595 00:36:51,876 --> 00:36:54,276 Speaker 1: One question that I hear a lot about this story 596 00:36:54,596 --> 00:36:58,076 Speaker 1: is who failed to stop this movement? Because in the 597 00:36:58,196 --> 00:37:01,036 Speaker 1: entirety of my book, there's never a moment when there's 598 00:37:01,076 --> 00:37:04,956 Speaker 1: like a decisive court case that renders the movement unable 599 00:37:04,996 --> 00:37:07,516 Speaker 1: to organize even for a short time. Yeah, you don't 600 00:37:07,516 --> 00:37:09,476 Speaker 1: have an Eliots in your book. You don't have no 601 00:37:09,636 --> 00:37:11,036 Speaker 1: you know, it will be hard to make a movie 602 00:37:11,036 --> 00:37:13,556 Speaker 1: out of it because you don't have the heroic cop 603 00:37:13,836 --> 00:37:17,116 Speaker 1: or you know, FBI agent who stands up and says enough, 604 00:37:17,196 --> 00:37:20,316 Speaker 1: I'm going to change this around. There's one actually who 605 00:37:20,436 --> 00:37:23,676 Speaker 1: quits and frustration after this edition. Trial policy is instituted 606 00:37:23,716 --> 00:37:26,476 Speaker 1: about not tying the individual crimes of the broad movement. 607 00:37:26,516 --> 00:37:29,196 Speaker 1: And there are some heroic local reporters who have like 608 00:37:29,276 --> 00:37:31,836 Speaker 1: one piece of this story in real time, which is amazing. 609 00:37:32,036 --> 00:37:33,836 Speaker 1: I mean, there are people who are trying right, but 610 00:37:34,156 --> 00:37:39,516 Speaker 1: the failure is exists at I have to use one 611 00:37:39,716 --> 00:37:45,276 Speaker 1: historical jargon term, which is transscalar, meaning that the failure 612 00:37:45,556 --> 00:37:50,196 Speaker 1: of response to this movement lives both at the level 613 00:37:50,276 --> 00:37:53,556 Speaker 1: of like personal prejudice of people in various positions of 614 00:37:53,556 --> 00:37:57,036 Speaker 1: power that allow it to go unchecked, right all the 615 00:37:57,076 --> 00:38:01,996 Speaker 1: way up through failures of media reporting, failures of juror education, 616 00:38:02,276 --> 00:38:07,036 Speaker 1: failures of prosecutorial policy and the law, failures of military 617 00:38:07,076 --> 00:38:10,036 Speaker 1: policy to stop this kind of organizing, and active duty troops, 618 00:38:11,116 --> 00:38:17,076 Speaker 1: failures in all kinds of different allocation of surveillance resources, 619 00:38:17,116 --> 00:38:20,356 Speaker 1: all the way up right, so transcalar, meaning it goes 620 00:38:20,516 --> 00:38:23,636 Speaker 1: every level of every level, all the way up to 621 00:38:23,836 --> 00:38:26,196 Speaker 1: every level of systemic power you can think of, and 622 00:38:26,236 --> 00:38:30,556 Speaker 1: it's all so imbricated that I think to really change 623 00:38:30,596 --> 00:38:34,636 Speaker 1: it would require a massive shift in public discourse such 624 00:38:34,676 --> 00:38:36,636 Speaker 1: that people start to think about it as a movement, 625 00:38:37,076 --> 00:38:39,956 Speaker 1: all the way up to reforming those policies and laws 626 00:38:39,956 --> 00:38:42,636 Speaker 1: that allow these things to continue. Well, one change that 627 00:38:42,876 --> 00:38:49,556 Speaker 1: might potentially becoming is ironically driven by a rapidly growing 628 00:38:49,716 --> 00:38:58,116 Speaker 1: number of wildly successful and heavily publicized terrorist attacks. Yeah, 629 00:38:58,156 --> 00:39:01,196 Speaker 1: which is what we've seen in the last few years. 630 00:39:01,356 --> 00:39:03,756 Speaker 1: You know, I'm oversimplifying a bit, but I would say 631 00:39:03,756 --> 00:39:08,396 Speaker 1: since Charlottesville, American public consciousness, US public consciousness has really 632 00:39:08,436 --> 00:39:12,236 Speaker 1: been profoundly raised around these issues, such that even events 633 00:39:12,276 --> 00:39:15,076 Speaker 1: that take place abroad like the christ Church, New Zealand 634 00:39:15,076 --> 00:39:20,796 Speaker 1: attacks are incorporated into our understanding or our wake up call, 635 00:39:20,876 --> 00:39:22,996 Speaker 1: which I think was not so much true for the 636 00:39:23,116 --> 00:39:27,156 Speaker 1: unders Bravick attacks, which although there was interested in the 637 00:39:27,196 --> 00:39:28,876 Speaker 1: United States, and there was a movie and there was 638 00:39:28,876 --> 00:39:31,036 Speaker 1: a long New Yorker article, there was still some tendency 639 00:39:31,076 --> 00:39:33,916 Speaker 1: to see this as though it were a Northern European problem, 640 00:39:34,196 --> 00:39:37,276 Speaker 1: you know, something, not a problem of the US. On 641 00:39:37,276 --> 00:39:39,436 Speaker 1: top of that, there was the fact that Bravik, you know, 642 00:39:39,636 --> 00:39:41,516 Speaker 1: was a white guy who killed a lot of white people, 643 00:39:41,716 --> 00:39:44,196 Speaker 1: I mean, and so it was it seemed possible not 644 00:39:44,236 --> 00:39:47,716 Speaker 1: to construct this narrative. But the recent events don't look 645 00:39:47,796 --> 00:39:51,516 Speaker 1: that way. They look like a coordinated set of events 646 00:39:51,556 --> 00:39:53,836 Speaker 1: around the world. And what's more, we also now have 647 00:39:54,316 --> 00:39:58,196 Speaker 1: a powerful comparison to make, which is the comparison to 648 00:39:58,356 --> 00:40:02,156 Speaker 1: self radicalized terrorists who were acting in the name of Islam, 649 00:40:03,036 --> 00:40:07,036 Speaker 1: who also have practiced a kind of leaderless resistance. But 650 00:40:07,196 --> 00:40:09,196 Speaker 1: that's not how a lot of the most effective the 651 00:40:09,276 --> 00:40:11,476 Speaker 1: tacks of the Islamic state operate. They operate on a 652 00:40:11,596 --> 00:40:14,876 Speaker 1: leaderless resistance principle. So we now have a salient example 653 00:40:14,876 --> 00:40:17,756 Speaker 1: in our minds and lots and lots of attacks. Do 654 00:40:17,836 --> 00:40:21,796 Speaker 1: you have a sense that these attacks are actually speeding 655 00:40:21,876 --> 00:40:24,316 Speaker 1: up or is that an artifact of our starting to 656 00:40:24,356 --> 00:40:27,276 Speaker 1: notice them more. It feels to me like a wave 657 00:40:27,596 --> 00:40:31,556 Speaker 1: of attacks that we're in. And something that I have 658 00:40:31,716 --> 00:40:36,876 Speaker 1: been trying to talk about since Charlottesville is that the 659 00:40:36,916 --> 00:40:41,916 Speaker 1: body count is very very low. Still, given the kind 660 00:40:42,036 --> 00:40:45,556 Speaker 1: of public facing activism that we can observe, the body 661 00:40:45,636 --> 00:40:48,036 Speaker 1: count is low relative to what it could be. Well, 662 00:40:48,876 --> 00:40:51,556 Speaker 1: so if we compare the earlier moment with this moment 663 00:40:52,436 --> 00:40:56,916 Speaker 1: and compare something like similar amounts of public sphere activity 664 00:40:58,196 --> 00:41:01,116 Speaker 1: with where we are right now, the comparative body count 665 00:41:01,156 --> 00:41:04,356 Speaker 1: is very low, meaning that I would expect there to 666 00:41:04,396 --> 00:41:07,476 Speaker 1: be more death. But does that mean, just to clarify, 667 00:41:07,516 --> 00:41:10,036 Speaker 1: does that mean you expect more death is coming or 668 00:41:10,076 --> 00:41:12,876 Speaker 1: that you're surprised that it hasn't come yet. No, no, no no, no, 669 00:41:12,956 --> 00:41:16,956 Speaker 1: I would expect more mass attacks to becoming. Yes, And 670 00:41:17,916 --> 00:41:20,836 Speaker 1: we should pause on that for a moment. You're saying, 671 00:41:20,876 --> 00:41:24,076 Speaker 1: in light of the historical examples and evidence, you would 672 00:41:24,116 --> 00:41:29,796 Speaker 1: predict that there are more very violent public attacks coming. Yeah, Um, 673 00:41:29,996 --> 00:41:32,996 Speaker 1: that would be my hunch. I mean, historians always are 674 00:41:33,076 --> 00:41:36,356 Speaker 1: reluctant to make prognosis about the future, and understandably, I 675 00:41:36,596 --> 00:41:39,756 Speaker 1: am Like I said, I don't have an archive, but 676 00:41:39,916 --> 00:41:43,956 Speaker 1: my hunch is that given how much public facing activity 677 00:41:43,996 --> 00:41:48,036 Speaker 1: we've seen in the last say five years, I am 678 00:41:48,156 --> 00:41:51,516 Speaker 1: staggered that the body count is not already higher. So 679 00:41:51,596 --> 00:41:55,556 Speaker 1: I would be very surprised if it did not amplify UM. 680 00:41:56,196 --> 00:41:58,516 Speaker 1: And that's also true because we have this other X 681 00:41:58,556 --> 00:42:02,676 Speaker 1: factor about so if you look at rises in the 682 00:42:02,756 --> 00:42:06,636 Speaker 1: clan throughout its life, so from eighteen sixty six to 683 00:42:06,676 --> 00:42:09,076 Speaker 1: the present, we have these clearly defined ebbs and flow 684 00:42:09,436 --> 00:42:14,916 Speaker 1: of the clan. UM. The the high points always align 685 00:42:15,156 --> 00:42:18,236 Speaker 1: with the aftermath of warfare in American society, and they 686 00:42:18,236 --> 00:42:20,396 Speaker 1: do that more consistently than they align with things like 687 00:42:20,476 --> 00:42:24,796 Speaker 1: economic hardship or poverty, or even anti immigration sentiment or 688 00:42:25,276 --> 00:42:31,676 Speaker 1: um segregation law changes. UM. And the fact that we 689 00:42:31,716 --> 00:42:35,716 Speaker 1: are now in a prolonged aftermath of war period that 690 00:42:35,836 --> 00:42:38,476 Speaker 1: is stretched out coming out of Iraq and eventually out 691 00:42:38,516 --> 00:42:40,996 Speaker 1: of I mean we're in We're in kind of like 692 00:42:41,036 --> 00:42:47,356 Speaker 1: a forever aftermath right now, forever wars aftermath exactly. And 693 00:42:47,396 --> 00:42:48,796 Speaker 1: I mean this is a this is a kind of 694 00:42:48,836 --> 00:42:51,436 Speaker 1: aftermath that we have never seen before. If you think 695 00:42:51,436 --> 00:42:54,796 Speaker 1: about kind of the cycles of combat and aftermath um 696 00:42:54,796 --> 00:42:57,276 Speaker 1: in that it is mostly focused on one sector of 697 00:42:57,316 --> 00:43:00,596 Speaker 1: society that interacts less and less with other sectors of society. Right, 698 00:43:00,596 --> 00:43:04,756 Speaker 1: we see increasing segregation of military families into communities apart 699 00:43:04,836 --> 00:43:08,716 Speaker 1: from other families. UM. We see increasing use of things 700 00:43:08,756 --> 00:43:12,156 Speaker 1: like op loss and multiple tours to put people back 701 00:43:12,196 --> 00:43:14,556 Speaker 1: in combat over and over rather than drafting new people. 702 00:43:14,836 --> 00:43:18,876 Speaker 1: I teach at a university which is as wonderful students, 703 00:43:18,916 --> 00:43:24,636 Speaker 1: but I hardly ever have students who have themselves served, 704 00:43:24,756 --> 00:43:27,876 Speaker 1: or have even have family members who've served. So there's 705 00:43:27,916 --> 00:43:30,876 Speaker 1: a profound social segregation around who is doing this work 706 00:43:30,876 --> 00:43:34,836 Speaker 1: of violence, and a stretching out of the combat aftermath period. 707 00:43:35,636 --> 00:43:38,436 Speaker 1: I don't know what that will do in those earlier periods. 708 00:43:38,436 --> 00:43:42,356 Speaker 1: It's really interesting because at one point I wondered if 709 00:43:42,396 --> 00:43:45,036 Speaker 1: we might be seeing like a Rambo effect, right where 710 00:43:45,116 --> 00:43:47,556 Speaker 1: veterans come back and just can't stop doing the violence 711 00:43:47,556 --> 00:43:51,076 Speaker 1: of warfare. But it turns out that violence increases for 712 00:43:51,156 --> 00:43:56,316 Speaker 1: everybody in American society after warfare. People who definitely didn't serve, 713 00:43:56,396 --> 00:44:00,476 Speaker 1: like older people and women and children, across all of 714 00:44:00,516 --> 00:44:03,956 Speaker 1: those groups. There's just more violence in the aftermath of 715 00:44:03,956 --> 00:44:07,636 Speaker 1: warfare in American society. So in this long aftermath period. 716 00:44:07,956 --> 00:44:12,556 Speaker 1: I think we should be concerned about this effect where 717 00:44:12,636 --> 00:44:15,156 Speaker 1: vigilante or excuse me, revolutionary groups in this case are 718 00:44:15,156 --> 00:44:20,476 Speaker 1: able to either mobilize that violent sentiment or I don't know, 719 00:44:20,556 --> 00:44:23,836 Speaker 1: contribute to infanon in some way. I want to close 720 00:44:23,836 --> 00:44:27,636 Speaker 1: by asking you about a phenomenon that is obviously very 721 00:44:27,676 --> 00:44:32,956 Speaker 1: significant for the post nineteen ninety five of white supremacy 722 00:44:32,996 --> 00:44:35,196 Speaker 1: the era that we're in now, and that is the Internet, 723 00:44:35,276 --> 00:44:39,316 Speaker 1: not in its proto message board form, but in the 724 00:44:39,756 --> 00:44:43,156 Speaker 1: contemporary form that we know, which includes not only Internet 725 00:44:43,156 --> 00:44:46,196 Speaker 1: one point oh, but also social media, and in which, 726 00:44:46,236 --> 00:44:49,316 Speaker 1: among other things, it's much easier to spread information to 727 00:44:49,396 --> 00:44:53,196 Speaker 1: people who never have to have individual human contact with 728 00:44:53,236 --> 00:44:55,476 Speaker 1: each other. They might, but they don't need to have done. 729 00:44:56,036 --> 00:44:58,596 Speaker 1: It strikes me that, on the one hand, the phenomenon 730 00:44:58,636 --> 00:45:01,156 Speaker 1: of self radicalization, the Dylan roof whom, as you say 731 00:45:01,316 --> 00:45:04,396 Speaker 1: and the close of your book, never actually had to 732 00:45:04,436 --> 00:45:07,676 Speaker 1: meet any people who shared his views to develop them. 733 00:45:07,676 --> 00:45:09,156 Speaker 1: So in that sense you could sort of imagine and 734 00:45:09,276 --> 00:45:12,676 Speaker 1: that the Internet is a social media are our vehicles 735 00:45:12,716 --> 00:45:16,116 Speaker 1: to spread ideology and to spread violence. But on the 736 00:45:16,116 --> 00:45:18,556 Speaker 1: other hand, we did have Charlottesville, which was less we 737 00:45:18,636 --> 00:45:21,516 Speaker 1: Forget began with a march that was called Unite the Right, 738 00:45:21,996 --> 00:45:26,516 Speaker 1: which was trying precisely to translate Internet connections to the 739 00:45:26,596 --> 00:45:31,236 Speaker 1: real life sphere. Talk about, if you would, the Internet 740 00:45:31,236 --> 00:45:34,796 Speaker 1: and how it's going to affect or is affecting white 741 00:45:34,796 --> 00:45:38,396 Speaker 1: power in our present moment. The actual violence of even 742 00:45:38,476 --> 00:45:42,156 Speaker 1: public facing events like Charlottesville that led to the death 743 00:45:42,156 --> 00:45:45,556 Speaker 1: of Heather Higher and the beating of other demonstrators is 744 00:45:45,596 --> 00:45:48,716 Speaker 1: important to queue up as we have that conversation. The 745 00:45:48,756 --> 00:45:55,396 Speaker 1: Internet is both concerning and immensely hopeful. The use of 746 00:45:55,516 --> 00:45:59,596 Speaker 1: viral videos and live streaming of the attacks is new 747 00:45:59,836 --> 00:46:02,316 Speaker 1: and strikes me as very much of a piece with 748 00:46:02,396 --> 00:46:06,036 Speaker 1: our present moment. And I'm thinking of the christ Church 749 00:46:06,076 --> 00:46:09,276 Speaker 1: shooter live streaming the attack, and also the militia is 750 00:46:09,276 --> 00:46:14,156 Speaker 1: on the border detaining undocumented immigrants and live streaming, you know, 751 00:46:14,196 --> 00:46:17,556 Speaker 1: their agony as they were held by a non government 752 00:46:17,916 --> 00:46:21,116 Speaker 1: group in order to turn them over to the border patrol. 753 00:46:21,636 --> 00:46:24,636 Speaker 1: On the other hand, I do want to say that 754 00:46:24,716 --> 00:46:28,036 Speaker 1: like there is, there is a way that the Internet 755 00:46:28,516 --> 00:46:32,396 Speaker 1: could also be an agent of change and could offer 756 00:46:32,516 --> 00:46:35,596 Speaker 1: us a seed of hope. The idea that we talked 757 00:46:35,636 --> 00:46:38,796 Speaker 1: about with connecting these stories together as a form of 758 00:46:38,876 --> 00:46:42,116 Speaker 1: understanding the history such that we can talk about Christchurch 759 00:46:42,116 --> 00:46:45,516 Speaker 1: and the Tree of Life shooting and Charlottesville and Dylan 760 00:46:45,596 --> 00:46:48,836 Speaker 1: Roofs shooting and Charleston all as the act of the 761 00:46:48,836 --> 00:46:52,516 Speaker 1: white power movement. One potential there is to connect the 762 00:46:53,036 --> 00:46:56,636 Speaker 1: impacted communities with one another and to create a kind 763 00:46:56,676 --> 00:47:00,476 Speaker 1: of coalition politics that could resist this kind of violence. 764 00:47:01,676 --> 00:47:04,756 Speaker 1: And so, you know, the Internet gives and takes away, 765 00:47:04,796 --> 00:47:07,876 Speaker 1: I suppose, but there is a way that it might 766 00:47:07,956 --> 00:47:12,036 Speaker 1: also provide an instrument for public understanding that wasn't available 767 00:47:12,076 --> 00:47:15,916 Speaker 1: to us in that earlier period. Kathleen, thank you very 768 00:47:15,996 --> 00:47:18,396 Speaker 1: very much, not just for talking with us, but for 769 00:47:18,476 --> 00:47:22,796 Speaker 1: your extraordinarily important work to help us come to terms 770 00:47:22,836 --> 00:47:28,556 Speaker 1: with by recognizing a genuine, organized, unified set of ideologies 771 00:47:28,556 --> 00:47:31,996 Speaker 1: that are in fact a social movement with real violent tendencies. 772 00:47:32,116 --> 00:47:34,796 Speaker 1: Unless we recognize that, we're not going to be anywhere. 773 00:47:34,916 --> 00:47:37,236 Speaker 1: And when we do recognize that, and I have some 774 00:47:37,276 --> 00:47:40,516 Speaker 1: confidence that we will, it will be thanks to your 775 00:47:40,516 --> 00:47:42,556 Speaker 1: work and to the work of other other people like you. 776 00:47:42,676 --> 00:47:44,996 Speaker 1: Thank you very very much for being with us. Well, 777 00:47:44,996 --> 00:47:54,836 Speaker 1: thank you for having me listening to my conversation with Kathleen. 778 00:47:55,276 --> 00:47:59,036 Speaker 1: Now in the aftermath of the Capital attack is an 779 00:47:59,076 --> 00:48:03,276 Speaker 1: excellent reminder that white supremacists are not merely peripheral loaners, 780 00:48:03,636 --> 00:48:07,956 Speaker 1: but part of a large, significant, organized movement that shares 781 00:48:08,116 --> 00:48:13,596 Speaker 1: coordinated plans, literature, and objectives. The novel The Turner Diaries 782 00:48:13,836 --> 00:48:17,796 Speaker 1: that Kathleen and I discussed was invoked again by Kathleen 783 00:48:18,156 --> 00:48:20,796 Speaker 1: in an article she wrote for The Washington Post in 784 00:48:20,876 --> 00:48:23,876 Speaker 1: January of twenty twenty one. She points out there that 785 00:48:23,876 --> 00:48:28,116 Speaker 1: The Turner Diaries also involves an attack on the US Capital, 786 00:48:28,596 --> 00:48:31,556 Speaker 1: one that was not designed in the novel to destroy 787 00:48:31,636 --> 00:48:35,356 Speaker 1: the capital altogether, but to show on the fence white 788 00:48:35,396 --> 00:48:38,716 Speaker 1: Americans that nothing is out of bounds, that the Capital 789 00:48:38,796 --> 00:48:42,916 Speaker 1: is a soft target, and that ultimately even the Capital 790 00:48:43,036 --> 00:48:48,596 Speaker 1: can be attacked. Food for thought going forward, until the 791 00:48:48,636 --> 00:48:50,996 Speaker 1: next time I speak to you with a fresh new episode, 792 00:48:51,476 --> 00:48:57,436 Speaker 1: Be careful, be safe, and be well. Deep background is 793 00:48:57,476 --> 00:49:00,956 Speaker 1: brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia Gencott, 794 00:49:01,196 --> 00:49:04,476 Speaker 1: our engineer is Martin Gonzalez, and our showrunner is Sophie 795 00:49:04,476 --> 00:49:08,356 Speaker 1: Crane mckibbon. Theme music by Luis Guerra at Pushkin. Thanks 796 00:49:08,356 --> 00:49:12,316 Speaker 1: to Mia Loobell, Julia Barton, Heather Faine, Carlie mcliori, Mackie Taylor, 797 00:49:12,476 --> 00:49:15,316 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, and Jacob Weisberg. You can find me on 798 00:49:15,316 --> 00:49:17,996 Speaker 1: Twitter and Noah R. Feldman. I also write a column 799 00:49:17,996 --> 00:49:20,636 Speaker 1: for Bloomberg Opinion, which you can find at bloomberg dot 800 00:49:20,636 --> 00:49:24,916 Speaker 1: com slashfeld To discover Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts, go 801 00:49:24,996 --> 00:49:28,356 Speaker 1: to Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts, and if you liked 802 00:49:28,356 --> 00:49:30,756 Speaker 1: what you've heard today, please write a review or tell 803 00:49:30,796 --> 00:49:32,876 Speaker 1: a friend. This is deep in background