WEBVTT - Judy Blume Will Not be Silenced 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:08.039 Hi, everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric, and this is next question 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:11.640 for anyone who has either had kids or been a 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:15.360 kid in the past fifty four years. You probably know 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.720 the name Judy Bloom, but she's the first to admit 0:00:19.160 --> 0:00:20.919 she's not comfortable with her fame. 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:23.720 I don't know how to do it, and I'm not 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.279 used to it. I'm used to being a writer, locked up, 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:29.960 you know, at home or in my bookstore. 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:33.800 But when it comes to talking about her readers, Judy 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:35.120 practically gushes. 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:40.519 Kids opened up to me in a way that I 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:44.240 think they felt they couldn't to their parents. Dear Judy, 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:48.400 I'm in fifth grade and developing. It is kind of embarrassing. 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:52.160 Without your books, I would be nowhere. I mean, it's 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:56.160 just so much easier to open yourself up to someone 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:59.320 that you're never going to see. You know, it's a stranger, 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:02.440 and yet it's not a stranger. You feel connected to 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:03.120 this person. 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:07.600 That's Judy and a new documentary about her life and 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:12.760 her epic contribution to literature for kids and adults. The film, 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:16.960 by directors Leah Wolschok and Divina Pardo, allows us to 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:21.280 see what Judy does best connect with her readers. 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:26.040 I felt very much a kid, and I identified very 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.880 much with kids. That's why I you know, some of 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:34.800 us always are like that. I still I identify with kids. 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:37.280 When I meet a four year old in the store 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:41.039 and I look into that child's eyes, there's a connection. 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:45.119 Leah, Divina and Judy join me for a conversation about 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:49.080 book banning, the importance of reading, the fate of libraries, 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:52.720 and the role of parents, all of which Judy has 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:56.520 passionate opinions about. When I asked her why make a 0:01:56.560 --> 0:02:00.560 documentary and why now, she gave me a typically Judy 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:06.240 Bloom answer. Heart felt funny and uncomfortably honest. 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:11.960 And it was just like, you know what, somebody's going 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:15.120 to do this after I'm dead, I might as well 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:18.320 do it now and try to set the record straight 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:21.440 and be honest and open as I could be. 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:23.440 It that was hard. You know, it's easier to be 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:27.320 honest and open with your writing than it is when 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:29.680 somebody's making a documentary. 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:33.000 About you, especially about your whole life, which you must 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:36.720 have felt watching it was flashing before your eyes, and 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:42.239 you were very honest about your personal and professional life. 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:46.519 But first, I'm really embarrassed to say and admit this 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:50.000 and ashamed on some level, ladies, that I did not 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:53.160 grow up with your books, Judy, And when I think 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:56.520 about it, are you there? God is me? Margaret came 0:02:56.560 --> 0:03:00.600 out in nineteen seventy when I was, wait for it, 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:05.880 thirteen years old, the year incidentally, I got my period. 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:09.520 So that is my confession. But I feel a little 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:12.560 bit better knowing that Leah didn't grow up with your 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:14.920 books either, Judy. 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:18.160 I know, and I've been embarrassed. This is the first 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:20.560 time I've had to talk about this in front of 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:25.920 Judy because I grew up in Jacksonville, Florida, in the 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:29.840 eighties and a time when Judy's books were seen as 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:35.160 taboo and an appropriate and naughty, and there was a 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:39.680 lot of shame surrounding periods and puberty and sex. And 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:44.800 I was a shy, flat chested, eleven year old good 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:48.480 girl who didn't want to do the wrong thing, and God, 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:51.000 I wish I had. I had heard about this book 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:54.160 about a girl who wants to get her period, and 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:57.200 I thought, I'm not going to read that book. I 0:03:57.240 --> 0:03:59.240 can't read that book. I shouldn't read that book, and 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.800 I didn't, and I'm so angry and my mom has 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:04.880 reminded me, I did not keep that book from you. 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:07.160 I did not restrict anything you read. 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:07.960 It was sort of the. 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:14.480 Feeling in my school, in my community that it wasn't 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:17.239 okay to be learning about your body and that way. 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:19.560 I mean, we were passing around Flowers in the attic 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.080 in fifth grade. That was the book that we were 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:25.440 all passing around. Why was it okay for us to 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:26.920 be reading Flowers in the attic? 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:27.240 But not? 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:27.880 Are you there? 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:28.159 God? 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:32.360 It's me Margaret, about a girl who is exploring her 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:35.880 friendships and her relationship to God, and her spirituality and 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:38.880 her parents, and of course about her body too. But 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:42.240 it's about so much more. I wish I wish I 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:43.799 had read it as a kid. 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:47.880 Having said that, was it helpful at all? Leah? Having 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:52.160 some emotional distance and being introduced to the material for 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:54.120 the first time as a filmmaker. 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:58.840 I think we needed that objectivity for sure, because everyone 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:02.080 else working on the film was a major fangirl. So 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:05.040 I felt like an embarrassed outlier at first, and then 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:07.960 I realized, Okay, it's helpful to have someone who doesn't 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:11.839 have that deep childhood nostalgic connection to Judy's books. But 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:16.040 who's discovering them as a mom and as a grown woman. 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:19.359 Judy, I don't mean to make you uncomfortable, but honestly, 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:24.200 it was so moving and so cool. What a tremendous 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:29.040 impact you've had on so many kids and parents, I think, 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:35.200 But I know the documentary really focuses on your ability, Judy, 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:38.719 to honor kids. And you even say when you started 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:43.000 to write, you only identified with kids, not adults. Why 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:44.360 do you think that was the case. 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:49.920 I don't know. I hadn't grown up. I mean, yes, 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:55.360 I was married, yes I had two children, But I 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:59.720 think I really hadn't grown up, and I felt very 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:04.640 much a kid, and I identified very much with kids. 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:07.000 I still I identify with kids. 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:09.680 I was going to ask you, Judy, what is good 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:12.440 parenting of a child in a bookstore? What kind of 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:16.640 things do you observe and think, Ah, that's right, that's 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:18.440 what you should be letting your child do. 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:24.360 Oh dear, Well, let's say the child is in middle grades, 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:30.160 you know, third, fourth, fifth, sixth grade. I like it 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:35.520 when the parent stands back and lets the child explore 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:41.400 by herself and find a book, or helps a child understand. 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:44.000 You know, this is what I do. This is what 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:48.479 I tell kids about finding books. So many kids come 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:52.039 in and they just want the familiar. Oh, I know 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:55.440 that that's Captain on your pants. I'll take that. And 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:59.479 there's nothing wrong with Captain underpants. I love Captain underpants, 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:01.920 a ton of Captain underpants. 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:05.920 But I like saying and hearing you say Captain underpants. 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:06.600 Go on. 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:10.560 I like Captain underpants, and I like dog Man, and 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:13.360 I like those books, and I like selling those books, 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:15.840 and I'm glad that kids are excited about those books. 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:20.800 But I also would love kids to explore more books, 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:24.280 and I think loving a certain book will help them 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:28.000 do that. But when a parent says, no, you can't 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:31.000 have that book, you've read so many of the you 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:33.960 just keep reading those books. I want you to read 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:37.680 a real book, meaning not a what we call now 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:41.680 a graphic novel. And I wish parents would not be judgmental. 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:45.360 I guess that's what I'm saying. Don't be judgmental of 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:46.640 what your kids want to read. 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:51.800 Give them more freedom and be less helicoptery. I guess too, right. 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:56.440 You talk about being an anxious child and feeling like 0:07:56.520 --> 0:08:00.400 adults were quote keeping secrets from you. Do you think 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:05.360 that feely influenced your impulse to be so radically honest 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:06.120 in your writing. 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:10.480 Probably, yes, you know, when I was writing let's be 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:14.280 honest here, I didn't know I was being radically anything. 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:18.000 I did want to write honest, truthful books for kids, 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:21.920 But I don't think I put myself into that, you know, 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:26.360 saying I'm going to be radically different. I never thought 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:30.120 about that. I only thought about will somebody published this book? 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:36.559 But yes, I hated secrets. I deeply hated family secrets. 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:39.480 And it wasn't just that I thought things were being 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:42.640 kept from me. I knew things were being kept from me. 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:48.120 And what I made up myself when I was a 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:52.320 kid about what they might be keeping from me was 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:56.040 far worse than what they were actually keeping from me. 0:08:56.880 --> 0:08:59.319 And you were very young. Weren't you very young when 0:08:59.320 --> 0:08:59.959 you got married? 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:03.600 Yeah, I was twenty one. That's what we did then. 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:06.959 You know, as my mother said, if you don't find 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:10.120 him while you're in college, where will you ever find him? 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:14.280 And I knew I must get married and have babies. 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:16.040 That's what I was supposed to do. 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:19.720 Getting married when I graduated from college was the last 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:22.520 thing that I wanted to do. I wanted a career. 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:27.400 I wanted to have mobility and flexibility, and I didn't want, honestly, 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:30.560 a ball and chain dragging me down. Is that terrible? 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:34.640 That's great. It's great that you knew that. I really 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:39.600 didn't know that was a possibility. I just didn't know. I, 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:43.439 you know, was trained to be a teacher. I remember 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:49.320 interviewing for teaching jobs, and then I was pregnant, and 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:53.240 so you know, that had to be put off and 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:57.840 put off, and I was pregnant again, and so I 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:02.400 desperately needed I desperately needed creative. 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:05.199 Work, and you needed something to call your own. You're 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:09.200 very honest, Judy about the eventual strain and distance in 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:12.640 your first marriage. In some ways, do you think that 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:17.240 disconnect allowed you the emotional space to write. I feel 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:18.920 like I have Judy on the couch, Ladies. 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:25.480 It came from inside me. That need was inside me, 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:30.040 and I had to find a way to let it out. 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.920 And I was sick a lot in my twenties, physically 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:38.040 sick with all kinds of exotic illnesses, and once I 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:42.040 started to write, they magically disappeared. 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:47.439 How fascinating it makes you wonder how much stress and 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:53.719 sort of repressed creativity was causing inner turmoil and resulting 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:57.400 in you being physically sick. You know, you started writing, 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:01.040 and man, I think about a lot of authors who 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:05.319 just get rejection after rejection after rejection. I mean, You've 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:11.280 got some blunt and pretty brutal letters from publishers, which 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:16.520 I think must have been very hard to take and demoralizing. 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:20.720 But then are you there? God, it's me, Margaret. It 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:24.640 just changed everything, didn't it. I mean, thank god you 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:28.120 wrote that not only for the world but for yourself 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:32.680 because it opened doors that had never been opened before. 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:37.160 Yeah, but the first thrill really was the first book, 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:39.840 and then the second book. You know, I'm being published. 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:44.240 I'm being published. And I like to say that it's 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:48.600 determination as much as talent. And I really believe that 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:52.439 if you're turned off by the first few rejections or 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:57.400 the first bad reviews, you know, maybe that you're not 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:00.800 going to make it just because you're listening to those 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:04.520 other people. So you have to just keep going. And 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:09.199 my it was only two years, which maybe maybe it 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:11.560 sounds like a lot, but it wasn't a lot. And 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:14.520 I feel that I was getting better during those two 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:15.840 years of rejections. 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:21.240 I'm curious Leah and Devina, did you think, Wow, the 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:25.640 opportunities for women back then were so few and so 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:29.080 many women did feel repressed. 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:32.400 I had no idea what a trailblazer Judy was in 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:34.160 all parts of her life. I think when I started 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:37.040 this project, I knew the I knew that work was trailblazing, 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:41.400 but I didn't realize that throughout her life, in small 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:43.360 ways and in big ways, Judy was sort of pushing 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:46.760 back against what was expected of her, and that was 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:50.320 that was relatively new and I see. I mean, I've 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:53.480 heard Judy talk about the Market movie and how it 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:55.480 part of the reason why it's taken so long is 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:58.200 because the right people had to grow up and be 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:00.600 in positions of power and say, yes, we're do this movie. 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:01.760 We're going to do it in the right way, and 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:03.120 here's the right person to make it. 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:08.320 More with Judy, Leah and Divina after this short break. 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:16.360 If you want to get smarter every morning with a 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:19.680 breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:23.079 wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:32.760 Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. We're 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:37.360 back with Judy, Leah and Divina Judy. It's amazing, isn't 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:40.880 it when you think back about how prudish we all 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:44.760 were and how uncomfortable we all were for so long, 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:47.800 and in many cases still are when it comes to 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:51.000 having sensitive conversations, or when it comes to talking about 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:54.600 our bodies, or talking about our sexuality, or talking about 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:59.720 something as basic as your period. Right, it's just so embarrassing. 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.840 Remember my mom talking to me about my period on 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:06.160 our way to I took piano every week at missus 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:08.360 Richmond's house, and my mom would drive me in our 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:11.520 station wagon and she said, and even then, it was 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:14.720 so uncomfortable. And then I think I got a book 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:17.719 in Girl Scouts that I still have in my sentimental 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:20.600 box that my daughters think is so funny, like on 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:25.160 becoming a Girl or from Girlhood to Womanhood, or something 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:29.720 like the cotechs had produced. Why do you think a 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:32.600 lot of people were, and in some cases still are 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:36.000 so uncomfortable talking about these things. 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:40.480 I don't know, because it's personal, it's private. This was 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:46.000 never my experience. I was never embarrassed about it, and 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:48.880 I loved talking about it. I didn't talk about it 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:51.560 with my parents, but I was lucky to have this 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:56.520 group of friends and just like Margaret's group, and we 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:00.520 talked about it endlessly for one year. I think we 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:04.200 were all obsessed, and then we let that go and 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:07.240 win our own ways. Even though we didn't all have 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:10.760 our period at the end of that year, and our 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:13.520 breasts hadn't yet developed by the end of that year, 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:17.040 but it didn't seem that important that we had to 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:21.080 talk about it. There were then boys to talk about 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:22.720 it and other things. 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:27.560 It's so funny how different our experiences are. I was mortified. 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:31.440 It was so uncomfortable, and I really didn't want to 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:32.320 get my period. 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:34.480 I mean, I was that kid who got there peard 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:37.520 really early and was so ashamed. You know, there's just 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:40.000 such a range of experience always. I think there've always 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:42.880 been girls who hated it, girls who dreaded it, girls 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:44.920 who wanted it more than anything. And I think the 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:47.680 beauty of Margaret is that even though most of the 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:50.680 characters really want it, there's still so much empathy for 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:52.680 all experiences. 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:56.520 I think Divina and Leah, one of the most moving 0:15:56.640 --> 0:16:00.560 parts that adds a whole new dimension to judy story 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:05.480 is your decision to focus on the correspondence she kept 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:09.160 thank God, not only did she correspond with her readers, 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:12.520 but they were all kept and donated to Yale. When 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:18.400 you learned about this treasure trove of children in their 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:23.800 most vulnerable states reaching out to Judy, Honestly, I get 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:27.880 almost tear up thinking about them. You must have done 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:29.200 a happy dance, right. 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:32.880 I knew that Judy had received letters over the years, 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:36.640 and the first time we met, I found out that 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:39.120 you had these long term relationships with some of the 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:42.680 letter writers. And pretty soon after that, I remember walking 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:45.000 away from that lunch thinking I have to go to 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:48.560 yl where Judy's archives are to see some of these letters, 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:52.280 which are very strictly protected. It's not so easy to 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:55.240 kind of walk in and get your hands on them. 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:57.000 But I was able to go visit and spend a 0:16:57.080 --> 0:16:58.600 day looking through some of the letters. 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:02.680 How many are there, by the way, Divina, Oh gosh, I. 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:05.720 Mean it's thousands upon thousands upon thousands, going back to 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:07.800 nineteen seventy one, when the paperback of Ourady there got 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:09.480 it to me Margaret came out. That's really when the 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:15.119 letters started. So boxes and boxes and the depth and 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:18.639 range of the letters, I mean, it's everything from sweet, cute, 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:23.520 funny to serious cries for help. It's such an outpouring 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:28.280 and it just says so much about what Judy's work 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:30.960 meant to kids. And then the fact that she wrote back, 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:32.760 so of course, I think says so much about her 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:33.560 as a person. 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:36.960 Did you write back to everyone, Judy? How did you 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:37.760 find the time? 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:41.959 No? I couldn't write personal letters to everyone, but I 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:47.439 like to think that I wrote back in depth to 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:50.760 the kids who needed me most. You know, I called 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:52.400 them the special letters. 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:56.280 Who would qualify as a special letter writer? 0:17:57.359 --> 0:17:59.840 Well, the two women that you meet in the movies 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:03.320 certainly did. They're growing up now with their own children, 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:07.159 but you know, I've never lost touch with them, so 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:10.920 that goes way way back. I think they were twelve 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:16.520 when Laurie was nine, I think, and Karen was twelve. 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:19.840 But there were so many There's a young man who 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:22.359 you don't get to meet because he's no longer living. 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:27.040 He was so troubled and so depressed, and we wrote 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:30.240 to each other for years, and George and I actually 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.480 on a book tour, were able to meet him and 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:37.160 have dinner with him. And he had a grandma who 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:42.960 was a psychiatrist. But eventually no one could save him, 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:46.320 he took his own life. That was terribly sad. 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:51.840 Leah. When you saw those letters and the relationship that 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:55.920 Judy forged, especially with the two people who were featured 0:18:55.960 --> 0:19:02.800 in the documentary, that must have been InCred moving, inspiring 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:08.359 and meaningful not only for you to witness, but for 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:09.960 the arc of the documentary. 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:13.240 It was so moving to discover those letters and to 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:16.919 discover the depth of the relationship that Judy had with 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:20.159 Laurie Kim and Karen Chilstrom, the two women that we 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:25.359 ended up meeting. When we got to hold some of 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:29.080 the letters that Laurie and Karen wrote to Judy, it 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:33.600 was we felt this release of emotion because the vulnerability 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:38.040 in their handwriting, in their words in the stationary even 0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:40.400 and the way that you could tell there were still 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:42.359 creases in the letters, the way it was folded so 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:46.000 carefully and put in an envelope. It was I think 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:49.639 we felt some of the responsibility, one small part of 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:53.000 the responsibility that Judy must have felt responding to them, 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:57.040 because we had a responsibility as filmmakers to honor their 0:19:57.119 --> 0:19:59.639 stories and allow them to tell their stories in a 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:03.200 way that they would feel good about. And for Karen 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:07.400 She hadn't told her story publicly ever, about what had 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:11.080 happened to her, the sexual abuse that she had experienced 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:13.440 as a kid and the trauma that she had experienced 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:16.639 as a kid, and so Judy was one of the 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:20.360 only people she had told and this experience of participating 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:25.360 in the film was really powerful for her. 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:28.359 I just have to say that, you know, I have 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:32.720 two favorite parts of the documentary, and that's one. And 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:39.919 I think that Leah and Divina did the most gentle kind, 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:45.080 generous interviews with them. I think they've just done a 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:53.439 beautiful job with that perfect I mean that. And what 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:58.000 they did showing censorship in the eighties. We didn't know 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:02.359 when they were making this film that you know, it 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:08.200 would come back to this that now in twenty twenty three, 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:13.160 we would have censorship issues that are even worse than 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:15.920 what we had in the eighties. And those two parts 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:18.719 of the film, because it's hard for me to just 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:21.639 look at my life, but those two parts of the 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:27.080 film really get to me and make me so grateful 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:29.600 to them and so glad that I said, Yes. 0:21:30.480 --> 0:21:33.120 It does feel like deja vu all over again, as 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:37.960 Yogi Berra said, And I want to just briefly mention 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:43.280 what happened after Forever was published in nineteen seventy five, 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:47.560 after the election of Ronald Reagan. You say that quote 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:50.680 the censors came out of the woodwork overnight and burst 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:54.840 onto the stage. I know that Randy, your fourteen year 0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:57.560 old daughter Judy, encouraged you to write the book that 0:21:57.560 --> 0:22:02.080 would perhaps be your most controversial, called Forever. Just take 0:22:02.200 --> 0:22:05.879 us back to what it was like when suddenly you 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:07.960 were the subject of censorship. 0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:13.520 Well, yeah, that was very hard. I felt alone, I 0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:17.600 felt dejected. I mean, I didn't know where to turn. 0:22:18.640 --> 0:22:23.520 It was a very difficult time until I found the 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:26.800 National Coalition Against Censorship where they found me. I still 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:31.800 don't know how it happened, but I became active with them, 0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:37.480 and I think that, you know, always this is true. 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:42.679 Doing something, doing it makes you feel so much better 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:47.720 than just being sad on your own. You know, so 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:51.800 many school libraries didn't have their policies in place, and 0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:55.240 parents were running in and saying, get rid of this book, 0:22:55.280 --> 0:22:57.480 get rid of that book. They were waving them around, 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:02.520 and people were right and they did it. And I 0:23:02.560 --> 0:23:06.840 think a lot of us, including me, really thought we 0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:10.360 have come through this and we will never go through 0:23:10.400 --> 0:23:15.879 this again, because we are America and we do celebrate 0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:20.600 our freedom to read and to choose and to learn 0:23:20.720 --> 0:23:23.880 and to question, and no one is going to take 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:27.560 that away from us again. But guess what, you all. 0:23:27.359 --> 0:23:32.240 Know this here we are back, only worse because now 0:23:32.280 --> 0:23:33.080 it's the government. 0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:38.040 Forever was banned again in places like Utah and Florida 0:23:38.600 --> 0:23:42.320 and Leah. When you see what Judy went through in 0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:45.640 the eighties, because I think she was ahead of her 0:23:45.640 --> 0:23:49.919 time in many ways, but you see this kind of 0:23:50.119 --> 0:23:53.360 happening again. Now, what are your thoughts? 0:23:54.040 --> 0:23:58.360 I'm infuriated. I mean, at first it was shock and disbelief, 0:23:58.440 --> 0:24:02.760 and then that turned into rage and fury and now action. 0:24:03.160 --> 0:24:06.960 I mean Saint John's County, Florida, right next to Duval County, 0:24:06.960 --> 0:24:09.120 where I grew up and where my best friend still 0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:11.440 lives and where my brother still lives. Forever was just 0:24:11.600 --> 0:24:16.080 banned again. In the last couple months. Judy's books are 0:24:16.160 --> 0:24:18.240 still being banned, but for the most part, the books 0:24:18.280 --> 0:24:22.360 that are being banned now are books by authors who 0:24:22.440 --> 0:24:26.399 are black, indigenous people of color, or authors who are 0:24:26.520 --> 0:24:32.040 queer trans You know, they're writing these beautiful characters and 0:24:32.200 --> 0:24:36.480 stories and characters who are black, indigenous, people of color, 0:24:36.800 --> 0:24:39.760 characters who are queer or trans, And those are the books, 0:24:39.800 --> 0:24:41.800 and those are the stories and the characters that are 0:24:41.880 --> 0:24:45.640