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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric, and this is next question

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Speaker 1: for anyone who has either had kids or been a

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Speaker 1: kid in the past fifty four years. You probably know

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Speaker 1: the name Judy Bloom, but she's the first to admit

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Speaker 1: she's not comfortable with her fame.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how to do it, and I'm not

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Speaker 2: used to it. I'm used to being a writer, locked up,

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Speaker 2: you know, at home or in my bookstore.

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Speaker 1: But when it comes to talking about her readers, Judy

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Speaker 1: practically gushes.

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Speaker 2: Kids opened up to me in a way that I

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Speaker 2: think they felt they couldn't to their parents. Dear Judy,

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Speaker 2: I'm in fifth grade and developing. It is kind of embarrassing.

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Speaker 2: Without your books, I would be nowhere. I mean, it's

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Speaker 2: just so much easier to open yourself up to someone

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Speaker 2: that you're never going to see. You know, it's a stranger,

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Speaker 2: and yet it's not a stranger. You feel connected to

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Speaker 2: this person.

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Speaker 1: That's Judy and a new documentary about her life and

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Speaker 1: her epic contribution to literature for kids and adults. The film,

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Speaker 1: by directors Leah Wolschok and Divina Pardo, allows us to

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Speaker 1: see what Judy does best connect with her readers.

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Speaker 2: I felt very much a kid, and I identified very

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Speaker 2: much with kids. That's why I you know, some of

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Speaker 2: us always are like that. I still I identify with kids.

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Speaker 2: When I meet a four year old in the store

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Speaker 2: and I look into that child's eyes, there's a connection.

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Speaker 1: Leah, Divina and Judy join me for a conversation about

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Speaker 1: book banning, the importance of reading, the fate of libraries,

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Speaker 1: and the role of parents, all of which Judy has

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Speaker 1: passionate opinions about. When I asked her why make a

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Speaker 1: documentary and why now, she gave me a typically Judy

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Speaker 1: Bloom answer. Heart felt funny and uncomfortably honest.

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Speaker 3: And it was just like, you know what, somebody's going

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Speaker 3: to do this after I'm dead, I might as well

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Speaker 3: do it now and try to set the record straight

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Speaker 3: and be honest and open as I could be.

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Speaker 2: It that was hard. You know, it's easier to be

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Speaker 2: honest and open with your writing than it is when

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Speaker 2: somebody's making a documentary.

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Speaker 1: About you, especially about your whole life, which you must

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Speaker 1: have felt watching it was flashing before your eyes, and

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Speaker 1: you were very honest about your personal and professional life.

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Speaker 1: But first, I'm really embarrassed to say and admit this

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Speaker 1: and ashamed on some level, ladies, that I did not

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Speaker 1: grow up with your books, Judy, And when I think

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Speaker 1: about it, are you there? God is me? Margaret came

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Speaker 1: out in nineteen seventy when I was, wait for it,

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Speaker 1: thirteen years old, the year incidentally, I got my period.

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Speaker 1: So that is my confession. But I feel a little

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Speaker 1: bit better knowing that Leah didn't grow up with your

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Speaker 1: books either, Judy.

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Speaker 4: I know, and I've been embarrassed. This is the first

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Speaker 4: time I've had to talk about this in front of

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Speaker 4: Judy because I grew up in Jacksonville, Florida, in the

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Speaker 4: eighties and a time when Judy's books were seen as

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Speaker 4: taboo and an appropriate and naughty, and there was a

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Speaker 4: lot of shame surrounding periods and puberty and sex. And

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Speaker 4: I was a shy, flat chested, eleven year old good

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Speaker 4: girl who didn't want to do the wrong thing, and God,

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Speaker 4: I wish I had. I had heard about this book

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Speaker 4: about a girl who wants to get her period, and

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Speaker 4: I thought, I'm not going to read that book. I

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Speaker 4: can't read that book. I shouldn't read that book, and

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Speaker 4: I didn't, and I'm so angry and my mom has

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Speaker 4: reminded me, I did not keep that book from you.

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Speaker 4: I did not restrict anything you read.

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Speaker 2: It was sort of the.

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Speaker 4: Feeling in my school, in my community that it wasn't

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Speaker 4: okay to be learning about your body and that way.

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Speaker 4: I mean, we were passing around Flowers in the attic

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Speaker 4: in fifth grade. That was the book that we were

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Speaker 4: all passing around. Why was it okay for us to

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Speaker 4: be reading Flowers in the attic?

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Speaker 2: But not?

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Speaker 4: Are you there?

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Speaker 2: God?

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Speaker 4: It's me Margaret, about a girl who is exploring her

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Speaker 4: friendships and her relationship to God, and her spirituality and

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Speaker 4: her parents, and of course about her body too. But

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Speaker 4: it's about so much more. I wish I wish I

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Speaker 4: had read it as a kid.

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Speaker 1: Having said that, was it helpful at all? Leah? Having

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Speaker 1: some emotional distance and being introduced to the material for

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Speaker 1: the first time as a filmmaker.

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Speaker 4: I think we needed that objectivity for sure, because everyone

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Speaker 4: else working on the film was a major fangirl. So

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Speaker 4: I felt like an embarrassed outlier at first, and then

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Speaker 4: I realized, Okay, it's helpful to have someone who doesn't

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Speaker 4: have that deep childhood nostalgic connection to Judy's books. But

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Speaker 4: who's discovering them as a mom and as a grown woman.

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Speaker 1: Judy, I don't mean to make you uncomfortable, but honestly,

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Speaker 1: it was so moving and so cool. What a tremendous

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Speaker 1: impact you've had on so many kids and parents, I think,

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Speaker 1: But I know the documentary really focuses on your ability, Judy,

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Speaker 1: to honor kids. And you even say when you started

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Speaker 1: to write, you only identified with kids, not adults. Why

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Speaker 1: do you think that was the case.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I hadn't grown up. I mean, yes,

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Speaker 2: I was married, yes I had two children, But I

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Speaker 2: think I really hadn't grown up, and I felt very

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Speaker 2: much a kid, and I identified very much with kids.

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Speaker 2: I still I identify with kids.

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Speaker 1: I was going to ask you, Judy, what is good

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Speaker 1: parenting of a child in a bookstore? What kind of

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Speaker 1: things do you observe and think, Ah, that's right, that's

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Speaker 1: what you should be letting your child do.

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Speaker 2: Oh dear, Well, let's say the child is in middle grades,

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Speaker 2: you know, third, fourth, fifth, sixth grade. I like it

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Speaker 2: when the parent stands back and lets the child explore

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Speaker 2: by herself and find a book, or helps a child understand.

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Speaker 2: You know, this is what I do. This is what

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Speaker 2: I tell kids about finding books. So many kids come

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Speaker 2: in and they just want the familiar. Oh, I know

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Speaker 2: that that's Captain on your pants. I'll take that. And

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Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with Captain underpants. I love Captain underpants,

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Speaker 2: a ton of Captain underpants.

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Speaker 1: But I like saying and hearing you say Captain underpants.

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Speaker 1: Go on.

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Speaker 2: I like Captain underpants, and I like dog Man, and

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Speaker 2: I like those books, and I like selling those books,

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Speaker 2: and I'm glad that kids are excited about those books.

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Speaker 2: But I also would love kids to explore more books,

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Speaker 2: and I think loving a certain book will help them

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Speaker 2: do that. But when a parent says, no, you can't

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Speaker 2: have that book, you've read so many of the you

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Speaker 2: just keep reading those books. I want you to read

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Speaker 2: a real book, meaning not a what we call now

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Speaker 2: a graphic novel. And I wish parents would not be judgmental.

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Speaker 2: I guess that's what I'm saying. Don't be judgmental of

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Speaker 2: what your kids want to read.

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Speaker 1: Give them more freedom and be less helicoptery. I guess too, right.

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Speaker 1: You talk about being an anxious child and feeling like

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Speaker 1: adults were quote keeping secrets from you. Do you think

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Speaker 1: that feely influenced your impulse to be so radically honest

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Speaker 1: in your writing.

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Speaker 2: Probably, yes, you know, when I was writing let's be

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Speaker 2: honest here, I didn't know I was being radically anything.

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Speaker 2: I did want to write honest, truthful books for kids,

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Speaker 2: But I don't think I put myself into that, you know,

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Speaker 2: saying I'm going to be radically different. I never thought

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Speaker 2: about that. I only thought about will somebody published this book?

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Speaker 2: But yes, I hated secrets. I deeply hated family secrets.

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Speaker 2: And it wasn't just that I thought things were being

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Speaker 2: kept from me. I knew things were being kept from me.

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Speaker 2: And what I made up myself when I was a

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Speaker 2: kid about what they might be keeping from me was

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Speaker 2: far worse than what they were actually keeping from me.

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Speaker 1: And you were very young. Weren't you very young when

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Speaker 1: you got married?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was twenty one. That's what we did then.

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Speaker 2: You know, as my mother said, if you don't find

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Speaker 2: him while you're in college, where will you ever find him?

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Speaker 2: And I knew I must get married and have babies.

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Speaker 2: That's what I was supposed to do.

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Speaker 1: Getting married when I graduated from college was the last

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Speaker 1: thing that I wanted to do. I wanted a career.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to have mobility and flexibility, and I didn't want, honestly,

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Speaker 1: a ball and chain dragging me down. Is that terrible?

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Speaker 2: That's great. It's great that you knew that. I really

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Speaker 2: didn't know that was a possibility. I just didn't know. I,

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Speaker 2: you know, was trained to be a teacher. I remember

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Speaker 2: interviewing for teaching jobs, and then I was pregnant, and

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Speaker 2: so you know, that had to be put off and

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Speaker 2: put off, and I was pregnant again, and so I

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Speaker 2: desperately needed I desperately needed creative.

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Speaker 1: Work, and you needed something to call your own. You're

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Speaker 1: very honest, Judy about the eventual strain and distance in

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Speaker 1: your first marriage. In some ways, do you think that

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Speaker 1: disconnect allowed you the emotional space to write. I feel

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Speaker 1: like I have Judy on the couch, Ladies.

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Speaker 2: It came from inside me. That need was inside me,

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Speaker 2: and I had to find a way to let it out.

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Speaker 2: And I was sick a lot in my twenties, physically

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Speaker 2: sick with all kinds of exotic illnesses, and once I

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Speaker 2: started to write, they magically disappeared.

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Speaker 1: How fascinating it makes you wonder how much stress and

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Speaker 1: sort of repressed creativity was causing inner turmoil and resulting

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Speaker 1: in you being physically sick. You know, you started writing,

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Speaker 1: and man, I think about a lot of authors who

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Speaker 1: just get rejection after rejection after rejection. I mean, You've

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Speaker 1: got some blunt and pretty brutal letters from publishers, which

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Speaker 1: I think must have been very hard to take and demoralizing.

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Speaker 1: But then are you there? God, it's me, Margaret. It

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Speaker 1: just changed everything, didn't it. I mean, thank god you

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Speaker 1: wrote that not only for the world but for yourself

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Speaker 1: because it opened doors that had never been opened before.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but the first thrill really was the first book,

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Speaker 2: and then the second book. You know, I'm being published.

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Speaker 2: I'm being published. And I like to say that it's

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Speaker 2: determination as much as talent. And I really believe that

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Speaker 2: if you're turned off by the first few rejections or

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Speaker 2: the first bad reviews, you know, maybe that you're not

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Speaker 2: going to make it just because you're listening to those

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Speaker 2: other people. So you have to just keep going. And

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Speaker 2: my it was only two years, which maybe maybe it

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Speaker 2: sounds like a lot, but it wasn't a lot. And

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Speaker 2: I feel that I was getting better during those two

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Speaker 2: years of rejections.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious Leah and Devina, did you think, Wow, the

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Speaker 1: opportunities for women back then were so few and so

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Speaker 1: many women did feel repressed.

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Speaker 5: I had no idea what a trailblazer Judy was in

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Speaker 5: all parts of her life. I think when I started

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Speaker 5: this project, I knew the I knew that work was trailblazing,

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Speaker 5: but I didn't realize that throughout her life, in small

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Speaker 5: ways and in big ways, Judy was sort of pushing

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Speaker 5: back against what was expected of her, and that was

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Speaker 5: that was relatively new and I see. I mean, I've

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Speaker 5: heard Judy talk about the Market movie and how it

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Speaker 5: part of the reason why it's taken so long is

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Speaker 5: because the right people had to grow up and be

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Speaker 5: in positions of power and say, yes, we're do this movie.

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Speaker 5: We're going to do it in the right way, and

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Speaker 5: here's the right person to make it.

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Speaker 1: More with Judy, Leah and Divina after this short break.

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Speaker 1: If you want to get smarter every morning with a

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Speaker 1: breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and

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Speaker 1: wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,

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Speaker 1: Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. We're

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Speaker 1: back with Judy, Leah and Divina Judy. It's amazing, isn't

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Speaker 1: it when you think back about how prudish we all

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Speaker 1: were and how uncomfortable we all were for so long,

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Speaker 1: and in many cases still are when it comes to

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Speaker 1: having sensitive conversations, or when it comes to talking about

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Speaker 1: our bodies, or talking about our sexuality, or talking about

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Speaker 1: something as basic as your period. Right, it's just so embarrassing.

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Speaker 1: Remember my mom talking to me about my period on

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Speaker 1: our way to I took piano every week at missus

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Speaker 1: Richmond's house, and my mom would drive me in our

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Speaker 1: station wagon and she said, and even then, it was

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Speaker 1: so uncomfortable. And then I think I got a book

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Speaker 1: in Girl Scouts that I still have in my sentimental

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Speaker 1: box that my daughters think is so funny, like on

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Speaker 1: becoming a Girl or from Girlhood to Womanhood, or something

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Speaker 1: like the cotechs had produced. Why do you think a

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Speaker 1: lot of people were, and in some cases still are

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Speaker 1: so uncomfortable talking about these things.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, because it's personal, it's private. This was

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Speaker 2: never my experience. I was never embarrassed about it, and

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Speaker 2: I loved talking about it. I didn't talk about it

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Speaker 2: with my parents, but I was lucky to have this

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Speaker 2: group of friends and just like Margaret's group, and we

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Speaker 2: talked about it endlessly for one year. I think we

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Speaker 2: were all obsessed, and then we let that go and

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Speaker 2: win our own ways. Even though we didn't all have

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Speaker 2: our period at the end of that year, and our

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Speaker 2: breasts hadn't yet developed by the end of that year,

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Speaker 2: but it didn't seem that important that we had to

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Speaker 2: talk about it. There were then boys to talk about

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Speaker 2: it and other things.

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Speaker 1: It's so funny how different our experiences are. I was mortified.

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Speaker 1: It was so uncomfortable, and I really didn't want to

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Speaker 1: get my period.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I was that kid who got there peard

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Speaker 5: really early and was so ashamed. You know, there's just

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Speaker 5: such a range of experience always. I think there've always

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Speaker 5: been girls who hated it, girls who dreaded it, girls

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Speaker 5: who wanted it more than anything. And I think the

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Speaker 5: beauty of Margaret is that even though most of the

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Speaker 5: characters really want it, there's still so much empathy for

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Speaker 5: all experiences.

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Speaker 1: I think Divina and Leah, one of the most moving

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Speaker 1: parts that adds a whole new dimension to judy story

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Speaker 1: is your decision to focus on the correspondence she kept

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Speaker 1: thank God, not only did she correspond with her readers,

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Speaker 1: but they were all kept and donated to Yale. When

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Speaker 1: you learned about this treasure trove of children in their

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Speaker 1: most vulnerable states reaching out to Judy, Honestly, I get

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Speaker 1: almost tear up thinking about them. You must have done

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Speaker 1: a happy dance, right.

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Speaker 5: I knew that Judy had received letters over the years,

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Speaker 5: and the first time we met, I found out that

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Speaker 5: you had these long term relationships with some of the

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Speaker 5: letter writers. And pretty soon after that, I remember walking

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Speaker 5: away from that lunch thinking I have to go to

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Speaker 5: yl where Judy's archives are to see some of these letters,

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Speaker 5: which are very strictly protected. It's not so easy to

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Speaker 5: kind of walk in and get your hands on them.

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Speaker 5: But I was able to go visit and spend a

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Speaker 5: day looking through some of the letters.

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Speaker 1: How many are there, by the way, Divina, Oh gosh, I.

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Speaker 5: Mean it's thousands upon thousands upon thousands, going back to

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Speaker 5: nineteen seventy one, when the paperback of Ourady there got

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Speaker 5: it to me Margaret came out. That's really when the

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Speaker 5: letters started. So boxes and boxes and the depth and

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Speaker 5: range of the letters, I mean, it's everything from sweet, cute,

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Speaker 5: funny to serious cries for help. It's such an outpouring

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Speaker 5: and it just says so much about what Judy's work

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Speaker 5: meant to kids. And then the fact that she wrote back,

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Speaker 5: so of course, I think says so much about her

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Speaker 5: as a person.

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Speaker 1: Did you write back to everyone, Judy? How did you

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Speaker 1: find the time?

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Speaker 2: No? I couldn't write personal letters to everyone, but I

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Speaker 2: like to think that I wrote back in depth to

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Speaker 2: the kids who needed me most. You know, I called

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Speaker 2: them the special letters.

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Speaker 1: Who would qualify as a special letter writer?

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Speaker 2: Well, the two women that you meet in the movies

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Speaker 2: certainly did. They're growing up now with their own children,

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Speaker 2: but you know, I've never lost touch with them, so

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Speaker 2: that goes way way back. I think they were twelve

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Speaker 2: when Laurie was nine, I think, and Karen was twelve.

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Speaker 2: But there were so many There's a young man who

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Speaker 2: you don't get to meet because he's no longer living.

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Speaker 2: He was so troubled and so depressed, and we wrote

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Speaker 2: to each other for years, and George and I actually

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Speaker 2: on a book tour, were able to meet him and

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Speaker 2: have dinner with him. And he had a grandma who

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Speaker 2: was a psychiatrist. But eventually no one could save him,

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Speaker 2: he took his own life. That was terribly sad.

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Speaker 1: Leah. When you saw those letters and the relationship that

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Speaker 1: Judy forged, especially with the two people who were featured

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Speaker 1: in the documentary, that must have been InCred moving, inspiring

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Speaker 1: and meaningful not only for you to witness, but for

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Speaker 1: the arc of the documentary.

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Speaker 4: It was so moving to discover those letters and to

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Speaker 4: discover the depth of the relationship that Judy had with

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Speaker 4: Laurie Kim and Karen Chilstrom, the two women that we

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Speaker 4: ended up meeting. When we got to hold some of

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Speaker 4: the letters that Laurie and Karen wrote to Judy, it

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Speaker 4: was we felt this release of emotion because the vulnerability

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Speaker 4: in their handwriting, in their words in the stationary even

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Speaker 4: and the way that you could tell there were still

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Speaker 4: creases in the letters, the way it was folded so

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Speaker 4: carefully and put in an envelope. It was I think

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Speaker 4: we felt some of the responsibility, one small part of

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Speaker 4: the responsibility that Judy must have felt responding to them,

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Speaker 4: because we had a responsibility as filmmakers to honor their

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Speaker 4: stories and allow them to tell their stories in a

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Speaker 4: way that they would feel good about. And for Karen

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Speaker 4: She hadn't told her story publicly ever, about what had

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Speaker 4: happened to her, the sexual abuse that she had experienced

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Speaker 4: as a kid and the trauma that she had experienced

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Speaker 4: as a kid, and so Judy was one of the

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Speaker 4: only people she had told and this experience of participating

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Speaker 4: in the film was really powerful for her.

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Speaker 2: I just have to say that, you know, I have

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Speaker 2: two favorite parts of the documentary, and that's one. And

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Speaker 2: I think that Leah and Divina did the most gentle kind,

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Speaker 2: generous interviews with them. I think they've just done a

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Speaker 2: beautiful job with that perfect I mean that. And what

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Speaker 2: they did showing censorship in the eighties. We didn't know

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Speaker 2: when they were making this film that you know, it

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Speaker 2: would come back to this that now in twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 2: we would have censorship issues that are even worse than

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Speaker 2: what we had in the eighties. And those two parts

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Speaker 2: of the film, because it's hard for me to just

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Speaker 2: look at my life, but those two parts of the

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Speaker 2: film really get to me and make me so grateful

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Speaker 2: to them and so glad that I said, Yes.

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Speaker 1: It does feel like deja vu all over again, as

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Speaker 1: Yogi Berra said, And I want to just briefly mention

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Speaker 1: what happened after Forever was published in nineteen seventy five,

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Speaker 1: after the election of Ronald Reagan. You say that quote

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Speaker 1: the censors came out of the woodwork overnight and burst

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Speaker 1: onto the stage. I know that Randy, your fourteen year

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Speaker 1: old daughter Judy, encouraged you to write the book that

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Speaker 1: would perhaps be your most controversial, called Forever. Just take

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Speaker 1: us back to what it was like when suddenly you

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Speaker 1: were the subject of censorship.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that was very hard. I felt alone, I

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Speaker 2: felt dejected. I mean, I didn't know where to turn.

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Speaker 2: It was a very difficult time until I found the

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Speaker 2: National Coalition Against Censorship where they found me. I still

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Speaker 2: don't know how it happened, but I became active with them,

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Speaker 2: and I think that, you know, always this is true.

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Speaker 2: Doing something, doing it makes you feel so much better

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Speaker 2: than just being sad on your own. You know, so

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Speaker 2: many school libraries didn't have their policies in place, and

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Speaker 2: parents were running in and saying, get rid of this book,

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Speaker 2: get rid of that book. They were waving them around,

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Speaker 2: and people were right and they did it. And I

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Speaker 2: think a lot of us, including me, really thought we

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Speaker 2: have come through this and we will never go through

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Speaker 2: this again, because we are America and we do celebrate

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Speaker 2: our freedom to read and to choose and to learn

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Speaker 2: and to question, and no one is going to take

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Speaker 2: that away from us again. But guess what, you all.

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Speaker 3: Know this here we are back, only worse because now

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Speaker 3: it's the government.

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Speaker 1: Forever was banned again in places like Utah and Florida

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Speaker 1: and Leah. When you see what Judy went through in

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Speaker 1: the eighties, because I think she was ahead of her

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Speaker 1: time in many ways, but you see this kind of

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Speaker 1: happening again. Now, what are your thoughts?

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Speaker 4: I'm infuriated. I mean, at first it was shock and disbelief,

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Speaker 4: and then that turned into rage and fury and now action.

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Speaker 4: I mean Saint John's County, Florida, right next to Duval County,

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Speaker 4: where I grew up and where my best friend still

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Speaker 4: lives and where my brother still lives. Forever was just

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Speaker 4: banned again. In the last couple months. Judy's books are

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Speaker 4: still being banned, but for the most part, the books

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Speaker 4: that are being banned now are books by authors who

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Speaker 4: are black, indigenous people of color, or authors who are

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Speaker 4: queer trans You know, they're writing these beautiful characters and

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Speaker 4: stories and characters who are black, indigenous, people of color,

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Speaker 4: characters who are queer or trans, And those are the books,

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Speaker 4: and those are the stories and the characters that are

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Speaker 4: being taken off the shelves in those communities, those exact

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Speaker 4: communities where kids need to find stories about themselves because

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Speaker 4: they might not have other kids in their classrooms who

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Speaker 4: are like them.

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Speaker 1: Why are some topics still so taboo? We'll talk about

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Speaker 1: it when we come back. We're back with Judy, Leah

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Speaker 1: and Divina. Obviously, I've been covering all this book banning

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Speaker 1: and the culture wars that really are erupting, I think

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Speaker 1: in Florida almost more than anywhere else because of Governor

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Speaker 1: Ron DeSantis. But just to ask you a question, I

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Speaker 1: so appreciate Leah having a diversity of authors totally, But

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Speaker 1: something struck me in the documentary Judy, when you talked

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Speaker 1: about age appropriate material, and I guess that raises the

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Speaker 1: question of talking about gender identity or sexual orientation. Is

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Speaker 1: there any problem with introducing these concepts to kids when

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Speaker 1: they are in kindergarten or first grade.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how this would be introduced to kids

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Speaker 2: in kindergarten our first grade. In my bookstore, I have

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Speaker 2: a lot of books that are wonderful. Justin Is a

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Speaker 2: Mermaid and Justin at the Wedding, and those are gorgeous

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Speaker 2: picture books. And there is no reason in the world,

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Speaker 2: I think, why they can't be read because it's not

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Speaker 2: like kids today we're going to study gender dysphoria. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's just not like that. And there's another one called

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Speaker 2: Prince and Night, where the Prince and the Night wind

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Speaker 2: up together, and they're beautiful, wonderful books. Recently I read.

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Speaker 2: I took it home with me from the store to

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Speaker 2: read it. Themo's banned book in America at the moment

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Speaker 2: is called Gender Queer, and it is such a good book.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't believe, you know, I cry that nobody is

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Speaker 2: going to read this book to first or second graders,

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Speaker 2: or third or fourth graders. It is high school, middle schoolers, adults.

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Speaker 2: It's a wonderful graphic novel. And when I finished it,

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Speaker 2: I handed it to my husband, George, I said, read

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Speaker 2: this book. You know, it doesn't take very long. He

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00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 2: read the book. He felt the same way that I do.

437
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 2: And the idea of taking this book away from people

438
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 2: who could read it, you know, if you're not interested

439
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 2: in it fine, but if it speaks to you personally,

440
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 2: and it spoke to me personally.

441
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 6: Actually, even though I'm not going through this because it

442
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 6: was so well done, but I think that kids, if

443
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 6: they pick up a book and they're not interested or

444
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 6: they feel uncomfortable, they put it down and adults don't

445
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 6: have to worry if.

446
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 2: It speaks to them and they say, this is me,

447
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 2: this is me, how great to find yourself?

448
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,400
Speaker 1: No matter what it is, it's done wonders for sales,

449
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 1: by the way, by that book getting banned.

450
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 4: The people who are buying that book are probably in

451
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 4: more progressive communities where a kid could find themselves within

452
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 4: their community and might have other resources. But the books

453
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 4: are taken off the shelves in communities where kids really

454
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 4: need the book, they really need to find the book,

455
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 4: where no one's buying the book. So I just wanted

456
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 4: to make that distinction needed. It was a distinction that

457
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 4: Alex Gino actually made at a panel that they did

458
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 4: with a few other authors from the film with the ACLU,

459
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 4: just that the spike in book sales happens in progressive

460
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 4: communities and not in the communities where the kids really

461
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 4: need the books. But book banning all comes down to fear.

462
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 4: Parents fearing what their kids might learn, might think about,

463
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 4: and might talk about. You know, there is so much

464
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 4: information for kids out there right now online. They can

465
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 4: find anything they want, anything destructive. I mean, things that

466
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 4: information that might not be accurate. They might be entirely interaccurate,

467
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 4: it might be destructive to their identities. But I think

468
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 4: she was describing this phenomenon of parents having a sense

469
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 4: of a loss of control of what's happening in their kids' lives.

470
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,959
Speaker 4: But books feel tangible, They feel like something parents can

471
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 4: still control because the Internet is way too big to control,

472
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 4: and they know their kids are online all the time,

473
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 4: so they can easily brown paper bag a shelf in

474
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 4: their kids classroom or lobby their school libraries or their

475
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 4: community libraries to take the books off the shelves because

476
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 4: they're you know, bound paper that you can physically hold

477
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 4: and physically remove. But how can you take the Internet

478
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 4: away from your child?

479
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 2: That's so so true, Leah. I mean, it is the

480
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 2: fear of loss of control. What can I control?

481
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 5: The question about age appropriateness is I mean, it feels

482
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 5: so disingenuous to me, because you've got kids in your

483
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 5: class who might have gay parents, or who might themselves

484
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 5: be gay, or thinking about their gender, and whether you

485
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 5: talk about it or not, sexuality and gender identity are

486
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 5: part of the conversation. It's so important to just be

487
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 5: open and honest about who we are. And I think

488
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 5: there's this desire to erase certain groups of people in

489
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 5: our country right now that's really frightening. And so when

490
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 5: we say we can't talk about you know that this

491
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 5: is inappropriate. You're actually saying who you are, your existence

492
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 5: makes us uncomfortable, and we won't acknowledge your identity. When

493
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 5: I see people need judy and cry, you know, thirty

494
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 5: forty fifty years after reading the books, it.

495
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 2: Drives home for me.

496
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 5: It's so profound to see how a book that you

497
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 5: read when you were young stace you carry it with

498
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 5: you your entire life, and that we are denying that,

499
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 5: we are denying kids that opportunity to find that book.

500
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: It shapes their worlds, you too, right, And I think

501
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: these ideas and other rising other people begin very young

502
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: and are handed down from generation to generation. So the

503
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: way we change hearts and minds, I think is by

504
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: talking to kids openly and honestly when they're young enough

505
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: to receive it without cynicism and with openness.

506
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, sort of all goes back to some of your

507
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 4: first questions to Judy about secrets, about her not liking

508
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 4: the secrets, the family secrets that were kept within her family,

509
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 4: and now that secrecy has evolved into this cultural secrecy,

510
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 4: Judy was feeling so frustrated about when she was a

511
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 4: kid and knowing there were things that adults were keeping

512
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 4: from kids. That's exactly what's happening now, but it's being

513
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 4: sanctioned by the government. And so that idea that we

514
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 4: should have learned our personal histories, our family histories, and

515
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 4: our cultural and national our country's history, the truth, the reality.

516
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 2: We used to say nogious power, and they're saying knowledge

517
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 2: is dangerous. So you know what, Katie and my good

518
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 2: friends here, we have to keep speaking out, and we

519
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: have to I think joined forces for people who really

520
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 2: want to do something and don't know what to do.

521
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 2: Read about the organizations that are working to protect our

522
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 2: right to read and our rights to know and our

523
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 2: freedoms and join force us with them, Join with National

524
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 2: Coalition Against Censorship or Pan America or ATHLU. Groups that

525
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 2: Leah and Divina have been talking to because once you

526
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 2: do that, it will be just like when I found

527
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 2: out in the eighties. It feels good to know that

528
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 2: you're not alone and you're working with other people who

529
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 2: believe what you believe.

530
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: We ask people on social media for questions for Judy.

531
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: We got a ton. Amy wanted to know who you

532
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: read growing up.

533
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 2: I loved mad Heart Lovelace, who wrote the Betsy Tacy series,

534
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 2: and it's not surprising to find out that many writers

535
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 2: of books for young people, woitmen especially also loved mart

536
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 2: Heart Lovelass.

537
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: Elaine asked, will you be writing any books for adults again,

538
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: I loved Summer Sisters.

539
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 2: Well, then, Elaine, I don't know if you read In

540
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 2: The Unlikely.

541
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: Event that came out in twenty fifteen.

542
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 2: Yes, and I said at the time, this will be

543
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 2: my last novel, my last long book. It was five

544
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 2: long years sitting alone in a room writing it, and

545
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 2: I believe it's the book I was meant to write.

546
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 2: Just took me forty years to get to it. So no,

547
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 2: I'm not going to write anymore books. No, I'm very busy.

548
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 2: You know, I have a bookstore and I love that.

549
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: Who doesn't love Judy Bloom at least after preparing for

550
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: this interview, Judy Lean, Divina watching the documentary, reading about

551
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: Judy watching Are you there, God, it's me, Margaret. I

552
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: cannot tell you how many loyal, loving Steadfast fans you have.

553
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 1: You've changed so many lives, Judy and done such important

554
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: work for so many people.

555
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,359
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Katie. I never think of those things,

556
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 2: but I appreciate hearing it from you.

557
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: Thank you, le and Divina. Congratulations on the documentary. I

558
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: can't wait until the world sees it. Thank you all

559
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: for spending so much time with me, Leah, Divina and Judy.

560
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 1: It's been a real pleasure for me and such a treat.

561
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 5: Thank you for having us fun to talk to you.

562
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,479
Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you Katie so much.

563
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have a question for

564
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: me or want to share your thoughts about how you

565
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave a

566
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 1: short message at six h nine five point two five

567
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 1: five five, or you can send me a DM on Instagram.

568
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: I would love to hear from you. Next Question is

569
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 1: a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media. The executive

570
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,919
Speaker 1: producers are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney LTZ. Our supervising

571
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: producer is Marcy Thompson. Our producers are Adrianna Fazzio and

572
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 1: Catherine Law. Our audio engineer is Matt Russell, who also

573
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 1: composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,

574
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,

575
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 1: go to the description in the podcast app, or visit

576
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: us at Katiecouric dot com. You can also find me

577
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more

578
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

579
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows,