WEBVTT - Regressive Nation 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:16.000 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to Hell. No just kidding, 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:18.720 welcome to Okay. F with me your girl A Danielle 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:21.959 Moody recording from the Brooklyn Bunker, where I will probably 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:24.320 stay for the rest of my life until the American 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:26.639 Gestapo come and drag me out and put me in 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:30.800 some type of federal prison for political prisoners. Friends, the 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:36.200 decision that came out, that was leaked by the Supreme 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:44.080 Court to erase Rov Wade, to undo fifty years of 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:48.440 work of equality of justice in this country as it 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:54.960 pertains to women and pregnant people, is beyond a wake 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:57.760 up call. Because here's the thing that I have been saying, 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:01.520 and you will hear me, Delvin, to this conversation with 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:05.920 our friend today, doctor Jonathan Metzel, is that this is 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:09.760 only the beginning. This is only the fucking beginning. If 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:12.520 Roe v. Wade can fall after fifty fucking years, what 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.839 do you think isn't on the table? Do you understand? 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:19.640 Because they are going to come for contraception, they are 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:22.160 going to come for same sex marriage, they are going 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:25.039 to come for social security, they are going to come 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:28.479 for desegregated schools, they are going to come for immigration, 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:32.760 they are going to come for every fucking right that 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:37.440 we have ever won over the last sixty plus years. 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:40.319 We have a case that I talked about last week 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:44.679 with regard to prayer in schools. Right at the same 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:47.360 time that we are having a conversation in Washington State 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:53.320 about a fired coach's ability to organize prayer for his 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:56.400 football team to do so on the fifty yard line, 0:01:56.800 --> 0:02:00.200 we're having that conversation. We're rolling back abortion rights, we 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:04.720 have already gutted voting rights. We are allowing cops to 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:10.040 kill black and brown people have been right with impunity. 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:12.440 Where do you think the fuck we go from here? 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:17.080 You know, on my other show, Democracy Issue that I 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:20.959 do with my friend ja jahat Ali, you know, he 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:24.760 always would say, he's always saying, Daniel, they want to 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:27.079 take us back to nineteen fifty two. He wouldn't say 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:32.040 nineteen fifty three. It was nineteen fifty two, right, Because 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:37.840 the front lines of the conservative, white, even jelical Christian 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:42.440 cult movement has always been in our schools, but it 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:49.000 has also been right at all levels too. What is 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:51.960 the word I'm even looking for, Folks, I'm struggling. I'm 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:56.080 struggling today, So please bear with me. I am struggling. 0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:02.320 I stayed up overnight, I did not sleep. I wrote 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:04.880 a piece in the Daily Beast, which I will share 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:08.360 with you now. The anger and the rage that I 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:12.280 feel has driven me to tears more times today than 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:16.160 I can count, because I am worried. I am worried 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:20.000 about the lives of all of us. I am worried 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:24.239 about our lives for people who are not white, who 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:27.520 are not straight, who are not Siths, who are not Christian. 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:33.080 In this country, they have declared war, they have long 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:37.720 since declared war. And I'm reading strongly worded fucking statements 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:42.480 by the Biden administration, by the Harris by Kamala Harris. 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:47.520 Kamala Harris, I thought was a fucking prosecutor of the 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:51.440 largest goddamn staying in the country. Where the fuck is she? 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.480 This administration is too busy hiding the fact that a 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:59.840 black woman, right an Asian woman, is a vice president 0:03:59.880 --> 0:04:01.760 of the United States, that they think that what if 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:04.960 they keep her out of camera shots and Mike shot 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:10.960 that what the rabbit white racist will forget? Folks. I 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:14.560 am so fucking tired of Democrats running scared. I am 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:18.640 so fucking tired of watching Chuck Schumer wag his fucking 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:22.520 finger and say, this is infuriating, as if you didn't 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:25.719 fucking know what Republicans have been doing out in the 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:31.440 open for fifty fucking years. This ain't new. They didn't 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:37.560 come up with this plan overnight. They have been activated 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:42.080 at the state and local level for decades, waiting for 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:47.159 this moment. When I watched Elizabeth Warren, Senator Elizabeth Warren 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:53.600 enraged as she's walking to her car. Senator Elizabeth Warren 0:04:53.800 --> 0:04:59.040 has said, they have been organized, they have been catalyzed. 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:04.080 What the fuck have we been doing patting ourselves on 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:06.520 the back for Democratic presidents that turn around and then 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:09.919 we realized that the executive branch under Democrats doesn't have 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:14.320 as much fucking power as it should. I won't tell 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:20.240 you that we don't have a leader in this moment. 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:24.680 This is a thing that troubles me the most is 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:29.200 that back in the nineteen fifties, nineteen sixties, nineteen seventies, 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:33.680 before they were all assassinated, we had fucking leaders that 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:35.640 were out front, that were speaking the truth, that were 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:42.400 organizing people. People were willing to sacrifice because what they 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:47.279 have understood, what they have always understood, is that freedom 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:52.640 is not free. There is a cost to freedom. People 0:05:52.720 --> 0:06:00.160 have given up their lives on the way to bring 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:06.560 us along to the path to freedom. We couldn't even 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:09.520 stay in the fucking house for three months and watch 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:13.200 Netflix when we were asked to quarantine. They want to 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:18.800 open up the country, open up the states. Do you 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:22.240 think right now that we have the fortitude to do 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:24.479 what needs to be done, to go out into these 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:28.800 streets and not to leave. Do you think that we 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:32.719 have the ability to collectively decide that we ain't tapping 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:38.599 into fucking capitalism. We're sitting the fuck out that all 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.239 that is left is to figure out what is going 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:43.760 to hurt them and hit them where it hurts, instead 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:46.520 of thinking that we're gonna go to the negotiation table 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:52.040 and negotiate our humanity, negotiate our fucking lives. Fuck them. 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:58.120 This is the place that I have been at. I 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:04.000 ain't somebody tweet at me talking about I hate wokeness, right, 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:07.479 I am so against wokeness. Oh so you want to 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:09.920 live your life asleep because that's what the fuck you 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:13.680 just said. Oh, I'm against woke culture. So you're against 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:18.360 consciousness because what you prefer is what George Orwell had 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:21.520 laid out for us in nineteen eighty four. You prefer 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:24.240 somebody else to do your thinking for you so that 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:26.920 you can just sit back and what be in depository 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:29.800 for their bullshit, because you think that that's what's going 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:35.080 to keep you safe. Folks, we are not in a 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:42.160 good place. Things are going to get much worse. And 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:45.480 I don't even know if the rest of us will 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:51.720 live to see things get better the first half. Right, 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:55.400 I'm thinking of my life. I have no idea what 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:57.960 it's like to live in a country that doesn't have 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:03.200 access to abortion. You see, because everything and people will say, 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:07.360 and you tell me in the comments section. My life, 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:13.440 my lifetime has been about progression towards progress, right. It 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:18.480 has been about us moving the needle generation by generation. 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:22.360 We had never reached a point in my lifetime where 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:27.080 the needle was just ripped out and thrown away, where 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:32.360 it wasn't about expansion of rights, it was about trying 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:38.800 to regain them. You see, once you lose constitutional rights, 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:44.680 they're just gone. Once you lose democracy, it don't just 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:50.959 come back. Right. That's the thing that I believe that folks, 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:54.960 especially the democratic establishment, are still sitting around and believing 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:57.640 that they're going to get another bite at the apple 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:06.400 post mid terms in a handful of months. Are they crazy? 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:12.600 Are we all watching the same things unfold in the 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:16.840 confirmation hearings you had any COVID Barrett, you had that 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:25.000 rapist Kavanaugh lie tell the American people that, oh, what 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:30.040 is law? What is precedented? Will stand? Do we understand 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:32.120 now that these motherfuckers will just tell you what it 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:33.559 is that you want to hear when you want to 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:35.760 hear it, and then do what and then do the opposite? 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:37.920 Do we get that now? Do we get that these 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:42.360 people that Joe Biden still considers his friends would rather 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:45.760 see him hung from a tree alongside his vice president? 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:51.440 Do we recognize that violence is what it is going 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:54.520 to come from the actions that they are taking right now, 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.680 because you see, there is never going to be enough. 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:00.800 They are going to gobble up each every single right 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:05.040 like they are a bunch of fucking pact men. And 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:08.240 then if we don't power in their presence, if we 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:12.720 do not submit, what do you think that they're going 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:16.079 to do? You think they're just gonna leave us all 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:21.920 alone to be and to brood. No, they are going 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:26.320 to take us out. They are going to make examples 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:29.400 of those of us that decide to continue to speak out. 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:39.400 They are going to terrorize and dismantle communities and organizations 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:45.760 that have been working for and towards equity. We are 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:51.079 living in the most unstable and unjust times that any 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:57.400 of us have ever seen. I want to read to 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:00.560 you a part of my Peace with the Day Beast, 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:08.080 which is upright now. And you know I posted this. 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:13.560 It was posted, I should say, at about one o'clock 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:20.440 in the morning after the decision was leaked, because that's 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:23.680 what happens. My mother said to me, so, I guess 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:26.360 you just can't sleep these days, And I said, what 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:33.920 does that look like? No, I can't. The title of 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:36.800 my piece has caused a lot of people to be 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:40.280 very upset, and I said, you know, what I would 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:42.680 love is that if people would actually look past the 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:46.480 titles of things and read articles. But you know, alas 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:50.800 they don't do that either. But what it does is 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:55.760 lay out the ways in which this could have been avoided. 0:11:56.800 --> 0:11:59.640 How we could have maintained a five to four split 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:03.000 in a Supreme court if Democrats had any strategy or 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:06.440 a fucking backbone and didn't think that, you know, the 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:09.880 world was just filled with an unlimited amount of chances. 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:16.480 It's entitled. Ruth Bader Ginsburg could probably have saved Roe 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:19.240 by retiring. Yeah, I said, what the fuck I said? 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:24.360 But she earned the right to make her choice. Point 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:28.240 a finger instead at Democrats who've proven they will give 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:31.400 in while Republicans will fight to the end to protect 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:36.040 their power. The death of Ruth of Justice Ruth Bader 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:38.600 Ginsberg in twenty twenty was almost two on the nose 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:42.960 for a year marred by unimaginable tragedy and trauma whose 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:46.360 impact was sorely felt. Monday night, when Elite drafted the 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:50.240 majority decision written by Justice Alito in the highly anticipated 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:54.320 Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization case, appeared to seal 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:57.200 the fate of Roe v. Wade, the nineteen seventy three 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:01.160 decision that legalized abortion nationwide. As one of the most 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:05.760 esteemed liberal justices to sit on the bench, Ginsburg had 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:08.440 scoffed at the idea of retiring before she felt that 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:12.360 she could quote no longer do the job following multiple 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:15.000 bouts with cancer and a broken hip. Her ability to 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:19.040 conquer each health obstacle with perseverance and strength turned her 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:22.679 into a living feminist, folk hero and rock star until 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:25.760 her death at the age of eighty seven. She seemed 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:31.160 indestructible until she wasn't. Now the question must be asked, 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:34.760 could her retirement at the age of eighty and then 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:39.679 President Obama's second term have deterred America's now inevitable backslide 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:42.760 into a neo dark age's where the freedom to control 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:46.840 one's life and destiny no longer exists for those dwelling 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:52.079 outside the womb. In that alternative future, the Court would 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:56.640 still have a conservative majority, but a narrower five to 0:13:56.720 --> 0:14:01.960 four split would have at least given a semblance of hope. 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:07.079 Now here's where is here in the piece? Is my 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:10.800 t be sure? Because folks, you know I am not 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:14.079 an attorney. I am not a lawyer, but I understand 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:18.320 how policy works and I understand politics. So I go 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:23.120 on to say this. Ginsburg alone couldn't have saved the Court, 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:26.800 but in giving up her seat, she could have stalled 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:31.520 its transformation into the conservative juggernaut that is about to 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:36.600 achieve the Republican's holy grail. Then President Trump was able 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:40.840 to seat three justices in a single term thanks to 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:46.040 the diabolical strategic maneuvering of Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:49.800 who aided and abetted Trump in the hijacking of the courts, 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:56.440 and with them our democracy. Folks. You know that when 0:14:56.440 --> 0:14:59.880 it is Wednesday, I'm always grateful to be joined by 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.880 our friends and in house doctor doctor Jonathan Metzl, author 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:09.000 of the book Dying of Whiteness. Jonathan, you know, let 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:11.480 me tell you something. I don't know where the fuck 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:15.040 to begin, and I'm just gonna curse a lot because 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:20.960 I feel I can't say that the leaked Scotus decision 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:26.080 in the Mississippi abortion case has caught me off guard, 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:30.520 because that would be a lie. I can't say that 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:35.200 I didn't believe that, after fifty years of hammering at 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:39.200 the same nail, that I didn't think eventually that white 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:45.400 evangelical Christians and the rabid Republican base wouldn't eventually send 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:49.560 that nail through the uteruses of women across this country. 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:55.360 But what I can say is that Democrats have as 0:15:55.440 --> 0:16:01.280 a whole, have woefully underestimated the Republican Party and have 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:06.320 woefully underestimated white evangelical Christians and their power. Tell me 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:12.360 how you are feeling today, um as a medical professional, 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:18.760 as a progressive um. Waking up to and having absorbed 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:22.320 this news, well, I don't curse very much, you know. 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:24.960 I usually let you do the cursing, and I'm like 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:28.880 the voice of reason. But today, like Smegma, you know, 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:32.000 what the hell I'm going to say every cursor? I know, like, 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:35.560 because because it's a it's an insane moment. It's an 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:39.600 insane um for a couple of reasons. Number one, of course, 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:42.800 is it just in of itself is horrible. Number Two, 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:46.080 there's this leak. We don't know, I mean, the league, 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:49.360 we don't know the story of the leak. Was it 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:52.200 somebody on our side, somebody on their side? Was it 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:54.960 the Russians hacking? Like we don't know. So there's also 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:58.040 the bigger story about the you know, also a story 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:02.760 about the institution. But also this pretends a lot of 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:05.280 really bad shit. I mean, if if that is the decision, 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:07.560 which we don't know what, I mean, the one thing 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:10.120 is what will the final decision look like? But even 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:11.880 if that was a draft of a decision, I mean, 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:15.639 that was pretty close to like let's keep women at 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:20.680 home baking pies, M kind of deal. Yeah, And so 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:24.720 just the assumption about just that people think about gender 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:29.000 that way is so upsetting and and so you know, 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:33.240 even if you study this, so shocking and so unbelievable 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:35.560 that that we're going to go to this red you know, 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:38.399 retrograde gender kind of stuff. But of course that's what 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:43.119 happens when societies go through you know, Tehran was a 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:48.439 totally vibrant place, very route, totally vibrant place, you know, 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:52.520 Russia fifteen twenty years ago. I mean, so when societies 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:56.439 go backward, they go backward on race and gender. That's 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:57.800 kind of how they go backward. I mean, they go 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:00.800 backward on a maddow their stuff. Two. So I think 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:04.560 the issue is, you know, I think people are waking 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:06.920 up today to the realization that they can't really take 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:11.800 it for granted that really, when societies go backward, this 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:14.000 is what happens. The rights that people have are not 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:18.200 etched in granted forever. And so these are things we're 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:20.840 going to have to fight for. You know, here's the 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:22.760 thing that I want to talk to you too about, 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:30.880 because you are essentially an investigative reporter. Excuse me, when 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:35.960 it comes to understanding whiteness. Talk to me about white women, right, 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:40.000 now and the fact that we think that this is 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:42.800 going to wake white women up. I mean, that's for 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.560 me is the hardest thing, honestly is I mean the 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:50.080 two hardest things for me in terms of that narrative. First, 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:53.920 of course is pain and anger and fury and sadness 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:57.720 of what this means. But beyond that, I'm surprised how 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:00.679 many people are surprised, Like where you've been, Um, you 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:04.320 know that they've been. This has been quite predictable. And 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:07.240 number two, I think it's important for people to realize 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:12.119 that this moment right now took fifty years for these 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:14.919 other dudes to do, and it was fifty years of 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:16.960 starting at the bottom. They lost, and what they do. 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:21.119 They ran for local elections, They figured out how to 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:23.760 seat judges at the local level. They ran, as we've 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:26.440 said a million times on here, for school board and 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:29.680 election officials, and they figured out what kind of deals 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:32.280 they had to make with odious businesses and stuff like that. 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:34.280 So it was kind of like an eyes on the 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:38.399 prize momentum that as we know, and involves a lot 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:40.159 of people. And so really the question right now is 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:43.720 did the Democrats the Democrats have it in them to 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:46.520 sustain the fight that this is going to take um. 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:49.399 And I think that's a fair question. I mean, I 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:52.119 think that there are a lot of women who agree 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:54.480 with this decision. Obviously, there are a lot of people 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:56.359 who feel on many sides of this. So the question 0:19:56.480 --> 0:20:02.280 is can Democrats and mobilize what this is going to take? Um? No, Okay, 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:07.440 they can't because none of this was a shock, right, 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:10.600 Like you're taking fifty years to write the same playbook 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:14.600 and literally just roll out different volumes every single year 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:18.320 over five decades, and Democrats have come up with no plan, 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:22.320 no plan whatsoever to comeback this which was to control 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:26.240 the courts, to expand the courts, and then to control them, 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.000 meaning that every single time that there was a Democrat 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:33.080 going back even before Clinton, that that should have been 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:35.520 the main goal, but it wasn't. But the thing is 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:38.679 our base, that's never been our the argument of our base. Right. 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:40.800 In other words, like the one thing I was thinking 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:42.600 when you asked me about spending a lot of time 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:46.160 interviewing white people, when you interview Republicans, like their goal 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:49.040 is control the courts, get power, and everybody be like, 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:51.120 well what about your healthcare and what about your thing? 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:52.879 I mean that's what I thought, and they're like, no, 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:54.639 we want to control the courts and get power and 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:57.560 implement our thing. And so, you know, mister McConnell is 0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:01.880 like the perfect illustration of that. Everything just just about 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:04.520 getting the course and Democrats we've had. Think of all 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:06.840 the random issues we've had over the years that are 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:09.080 hot button issues for five minutes and then they go away, 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:11.760 and stuff like that, and even stuff that really matters. 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:14.520 I mean, I study guns, and after mass shootings there 0:21:14.520 --> 0:21:17.000 would be like two weeks of fury and marches and 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:18.920 never again and that kind of stuff, and then people 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:21.600 would go home and do their own thing. But I've 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:25.240 just stay studying Republicans, like I don't know, these fuckers 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:29.080 slept in front of women's abortion clinics for fifty years. 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:33.400 They're still out there tonight. And so in a way 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:37.120 that you know, it's hard because the Democrats are, as 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:40.120 we've said here, a confederation of a lot of different interests. 0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:42.840 So the question is will this be the one that 0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:45.879 mobilizes people, that creates a common cause. And the reason 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:49.399 I'm skeptical of that A is because of history, as 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:51.680 you say, but B also is because a lot more 0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:54.399 bad shit is coming down the pike. So this is 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:56.600 this is you know, if you're going to use this logic, 0:21:58.280 --> 0:22:00.840 then there's a lot more bad stuff coming. What do 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:02.920 you think that the bottom is? Where do you think 0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:09.280 that it goes? Um? In studying, in studying these people 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:15.520 really understanding how their brains work, what is their end goal? 0:22:16.600 --> 0:22:20.240 Like literally like this this was the holy grail. Abortion, 0:22:20.520 --> 0:22:23.840 I believe was the holy grail. In the decision that 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:27.040 we have that some of us have gone through that 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:31.880 was leaked, there is mention of the Lawrence case which 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:38.159 was about which was about decriminalizing sodomy. There was reference 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:42.680 to marriage, there was reference to LGBTQ marriage. There are 0:22:42.720 --> 0:22:46.200 reference points to all of these things that have been 0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:51.080 one over the last fifty years. And so if they 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:55.119 belief you, if this can fall, then everything that we 0:22:55.200 --> 0:23:00.119 thought was quote unquote codified into law, it's done. And 0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:04.840 so in your conversations and in your research, what does 0:23:05.320 --> 0:23:10.439 what does the utopia of white evangelical christian Hood look like? 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:15.920 It's weird because there's no consistency right. Nobody's ever lost 0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:21.040 a constitutional right in this country until yesterday apparently, and 0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:24.440 so all the things like states rights and the Constitution 0:23:24.520 --> 0:23:26.520 and all this kind of stuff. It's really just a 0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:32.040 smokescreen for power. But I think it's important for people 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:34.280 to realize that a lot of the stuff like with 0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:37.679 like you can't get an abortion in Tennessee, for example, 0:23:37.760 --> 0:23:39.679 pretty much like a lot of this stuff, you can 0:23:39.680 --> 0:23:43.120 get a gun anywhere in Tennessee. Republicans dominate the states. 0:23:43.119 --> 0:23:44.159 So if you want to know what this is going 0:23:44.200 --> 0:23:48.560 to look like, just imagine Tennessee of America, because that's 0:23:49.560 --> 0:23:52.040 that's already happening. And I guess one of the frustrations 0:23:52.080 --> 0:23:53.840 for me why I wrote Dying a Whiteness where I'm 0:23:53.840 --> 0:23:57.720 writing the book I'm writing now, is because it was 0:23:57.760 --> 0:24:02.280 too easy, honestly for coastal liberal people to say, oh, 0:24:02.359 --> 0:24:04.800 this is this is just happening in the red state America, 0:24:05.000 --> 0:24:07.040 and we're it's like whatever, and we don't have to 0:24:07.080 --> 0:24:09.159 deal with it, like but it's coming for you, you know. 0:24:09.640 --> 0:24:11.680 And so that was kind of the point of Dying 0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:15.159 of Whiteness was if you want to look at what's happening, 0:24:15.200 --> 0:24:17.879 look at what's happening there, and then intervene there, because 0:24:17.920 --> 0:24:21.240 that's that's the focus of where this is happening. Really 0:24:21.240 --> 0:24:23.560 try to figure out what would it mean to turn 0:24:23.640 --> 0:24:26.600 the tide, not in New York or Los Angeles, but 0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:30.480 in rural Tennessee. What would you mean to gain influence, 0:24:30.480 --> 0:24:32.280 to talk to people, to do all these kind of things. 0:24:32.800 --> 0:24:36.200 And I can't tell you how hard that argument has 0:24:36.200 --> 0:24:39.840 been for many, many years, but I would say that 0:24:39.840 --> 0:24:41.280 that's kind of the issue is if you want to 0:24:41.320 --> 0:24:43.360 look at what this is going to be, just look 0:24:43.400 --> 0:24:45.879 to my home state, because that's kind of what it 0:24:45.960 --> 0:24:51.160 is already. And so this idea that New York is safe, 0:24:51.240 --> 0:24:55.000 I mean, you know, it's it's it's sadly tragic that 0:24:55.119 --> 0:24:58.080 people think that they're they're just going to be abortions 0:24:58.080 --> 0:25:02.159 in Connecticut and Los Angeles and New York. Like have 0:25:02.280 --> 0:25:04.919 you not been paying attention, dude, Like you know, you 0:25:04.920 --> 0:25:06.600 think people from Tennessee are just going to get to 0:25:06.640 --> 0:25:08.359 come here and have abortions. It is not going to 0:25:08.440 --> 0:25:13.320 work that way. And so I don't know. I hope 0:25:13.359 --> 0:25:15.879 this is a wake up moment. I really do, But 0:25:16.560 --> 0:25:18.400 like I guess, I guess when I when we say 0:25:18.440 --> 0:25:21.040 things like that, and I'm not like attacking you, it's 0:25:21.080 --> 0:25:24.160 just I you know, I spent all of last night 0:25:24.200 --> 0:25:26.760 on Twitter and writing my piece that's in the Daily 0:25:26.800 --> 0:25:30.880 Beast today that dropped, you know, in the morning. Like 0:25:31.480 --> 0:25:33.560 we say, like I hope that these things will be 0:25:33.640 --> 0:25:35.240 a wake up call. It's kind of the way that 0:25:35.280 --> 0:25:38.520 we say, you know, when a loved one dies, Oh, 0:25:38.560 --> 0:25:41.920 they're in a better place. No, they're not right, because 0:25:41.920 --> 0:25:44.440 that better place I wanted to be with me, right, 0:25:44.680 --> 0:25:47.640 not you know, in the ground or in an urn. Right. 0:25:47.720 --> 0:25:49.920 And so it's like these are things that we tell 0:25:49.960 --> 0:25:55.560 ourselves too, I guess, make ourselves feel better. But in reality, 0:25:56.320 --> 0:25:58.200 I think that the wake up call is too late. 0:25:58.280 --> 0:26:03.879 Jonathan Well, I mean, I do think there's something palpable 0:26:03.920 --> 0:26:06.240 about the anger this morning that is different than what 0:26:06.280 --> 0:26:09.160 I felt. So I'm willing to keep the possibility open 0:26:09.280 --> 0:26:11.880