WEBVTT - Racialized Trauma is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:25.636 Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. I learned things 0:00:25.636 --> 0:00:29.076 about how to navigate in the world from what my 0:00:29.276 --> 0:00:34.436 caregivers lean into and recoiled from. So much of the 0:00:34.476 --> 0:00:36.996 way we moved through the world is influenced by those 0:00:36.996 --> 0:00:39.356 who raised us, from how we hold a fork to 0:00:39.396 --> 0:00:42.036 how we carry our bodies when we walk and talk, 0:00:42.556 --> 0:00:46.396 and hard stuff has passed through generations too. Families who 0:00:46.396 --> 0:00:48.756 have survived famine might be more likely to teach their 0:00:48.836 --> 0:00:53.756 children to stockpile food. Those who survive violent wars or enslavement. 0:00:54.076 --> 0:00:58.516 They may pass on lessons consciously or subconsciously to their kids. 0:00:59.276 --> 0:01:04.316 Trauma in a person over time can look like personality. 0:01:05.356 --> 0:01:10.756 Trauma in a family over time can look like family traits, 0:01:10.796 --> 0:01:14.996 and trauma any people over time can look like culture. 0:01:15.556 --> 0:01:19.756 Resume Menicum is a trauma therapist based in Minneapolis. The 0:01:19.876 --> 0:01:23.196 killings of George Floyd and many other black Americans at 0:01:23.196 --> 0:01:27.716 the hands of police have intensified the focused and urgency 0:01:27.796 --> 0:01:33.116 of Menicum's work. When a black body is murdered on 0:01:33.396 --> 0:01:36.876 TV or we see that type of stuff, the impact 0:01:36.916 --> 0:01:39.476 of it is not just personal. We're dealing with the 0:01:39.596 --> 0:01:45.196 historical energy that has gone unresolved, the intergenerational energy that 0:01:45.276 --> 0:01:50.116 has gone unresolved. Menicum expects that racialized trauma will continue, 0:01:50.676 --> 0:01:53.156 but he believes that hard work by people of all 0:01:53.276 --> 0:01:58.556 races can bring meaningful change. My name is Resume Menicum, 0:01:58.716 --> 0:02:09.316 and I believe that racialized trauma is solvd. My cost 0:02:09.316 --> 0:02:15.036 An apple Bomb spoke with Menachem. Here's their conversation. So Resma, 0:02:15.116 --> 0:02:19.116 to begin with, could you define trauma for us? What 0:02:19.156 --> 0:02:22.716 do you mean when you use that word? Basically, anything 0:02:22.756 --> 0:02:26.796 that happens that's too much, too fast, happens too soon, 0:02:26.996 --> 0:02:32.476 or happens too long without any reprieve or limited reprieve 0:02:33.316 --> 0:02:37.636 is trauma? And how is that different from other types 0:02:37.676 --> 0:02:40.956 of pain or depression or is it the same thing? 0:02:40.996 --> 0:02:45.596 Are these things all related? They're related. But the most 0:02:45.676 --> 0:02:49.476 important piece for me with regard to trauma itself is 0:02:49.516 --> 0:02:53.996 the stuck quality in the ideas or the stuckness in behavior. 0:02:54.116 --> 0:02:58.276 There's a stuck quality that over time begins to look 0:02:58.716 --> 0:03:02.756 like standard and begins to look like normality, Like you 0:03:02.756 --> 0:03:05.556 can have bad things happen to you and not get 0:03:05.636 --> 0:03:10.556 stuck right. Trauma is about the stuckness of it. Tell 0:03:10.556 --> 0:03:13.916 me a little bit about yourself and how this became 0:03:13.956 --> 0:03:18.876 your area of focus. Two things. So I was in 0:03:19.076 --> 0:03:22.836 I did two years in Afghanistan doing a trauma work 0:03:22.876 --> 0:03:27.716 in Afghanistan, and during that time, all of the trauma 0:03:27.796 --> 0:03:31.516 that I experienced and saw I had to override in 0:03:31.636 --> 0:03:34.956 order to give service to those people, to those military 0:03:34.996 --> 0:03:36.916 contractors and all of those people that was on those 0:03:36.956 --> 0:03:39.876 fifty three military basis, I had to give service. So 0:03:39.916 --> 0:03:42.276 when they were dealing with suicide, when they were dealing 0:03:42.356 --> 0:03:45.716 with thinking about suicide, when the Taliban would come, would 0:03:45.716 --> 0:03:48.156 would breach the compound, all of that different type of 0:03:48.196 --> 0:03:51.516 stuff I had to work with. I in order to 0:03:51.556 --> 0:03:55.276 survive that, I had to override my own pieces. And 0:03:55.356 --> 0:03:59.276 so when I came back here in twenty thirteen, it 0:03:59.396 --> 0:04:04.956 wasn't until then that I noticed that my own trauma 0:04:04.996 --> 0:04:09.636 pieces started to unthought and started to come about. And 0:04:09.676 --> 0:04:14.196 so that's when the story of my grandmother came back. 0:04:14.236 --> 0:04:19.676 So when I was young, my grandmother, Grandma Addie, she 0:04:19.716 --> 0:04:21.596 would lay on the couch and when she would lay 0:04:21.596 --> 0:04:24.836 on the couch, she would then put her feet across 0:04:24.916 --> 0:04:27.756 our thighs and she would watch TV or put her 0:04:27.796 --> 0:04:29.836 legs across our thighs and her hand would be on 0:04:29.876 --> 0:04:33.196 her hips, and I would always rub her hands and 0:04:33.236 --> 0:04:35.116 just be rubbing her hands and rub her hands while 0:04:35.196 --> 0:04:38.556 she was watching TV. And at one point I was 0:04:38.596 --> 0:04:42.876 comparing her hands to my hands, and what I noticed, 0:04:42.876 --> 0:04:45.476 and my grandmother was a thin woman. She was a 0:04:45.556 --> 0:04:49.676 thin woman, but she had these big, thick hands, like 0:04:50.236 --> 0:04:52.796 the thumbs had all of this patting on it on 0:04:52.916 --> 0:04:55.596 the front, in the palm there was just patting on 0:04:55.636 --> 0:04:57.996 the back of her hands. And she had these thick 0:04:58.076 --> 0:05:01.396 digit fingers that looked different than the way her body 0:05:01.516 --> 0:05:04.916 was constructed. And so at one point I was looking 0:05:04.916 --> 0:05:06.756 at her and I said to her, I said, Grandma, 0:05:06.756 --> 0:05:08.676 why are your hands like that? White the hands while 0:05:08.756 --> 0:05:11.836 your hands so fat like that? And my grandmother, without 0:05:11.876 --> 0:05:15.116 missing a beat, goes, oh, boy, that's from picking cotton. 0:05:15.796 --> 0:05:17.316 She looked at me and she said, boy, you've ever 0:05:17.356 --> 0:05:20.476 seen cotton a cotton plant? I said, no, ma'am. She said, 0:05:20.676 --> 0:05:23.356 cotton plant has got these birds in it. And she said, 0:05:23.436 --> 0:05:25.476 my daddy was a sharecropper. So, and this is the 0:05:25.516 --> 0:05:28.636 tone that she's using now, right, she's going my daddy 0:05:28.676 --> 0:05:31.396 had My daddy was a sharecropper, and so at four 0:05:31.436 --> 0:05:32.996 years old, we had to walk up and down the 0:05:33.156 --> 0:05:35.676 rows and pick that cotton. When you reach your hands 0:05:35.676 --> 0:05:39.076 into cotton, it rips up your hands. Those birds rip 0:05:39.116 --> 0:05:41.876 your hands up until callous's begin to develop. And so 0:05:41.996 --> 0:05:45.636 my hands blared for a long time until Callous's started 0:05:45.676 --> 0:05:48.436 to develop. And so I was just looking at her 0:05:48.476 --> 0:05:50.996 and she said, yeah, that's why, and then she stopped 0:05:51.116 --> 0:05:53.476 right there and she turned and started watching TV. I 0:05:53.516 --> 0:05:57.596 did not remember that story. It totally left me. And 0:05:57.636 --> 0:06:01.716 the reason why it came back is that the connections 0:06:01.756 --> 0:06:06.316 between trauma, my own trauma, her what she was going through, 0:06:06.396 --> 0:06:10.116 my own issues with suicide, and in overwhelming all of 0:06:10.116 --> 0:06:12.636 that different type of stuff, all of that came together 0:06:13.116 --> 0:06:16.396 to help me begin to kind of think about this 0:06:16.516 --> 0:06:20.676 idea around racialized trauma, how it shows up in a body, 0:06:21.036 --> 0:06:24.076 what it does in terms of embodiment, what are the 0:06:24.156 --> 0:06:27.796 protective mechanisms. So that's how I came to this piece, 0:06:27.796 --> 0:06:30.636 and that's why I'm so passionate about it, because people 0:06:30.876 --> 0:06:35.636 can move through it, they can metabolize that energy. But 0:06:35.716 --> 0:06:39.636 it doesn't come from just education, It doesn't come from 0:06:39.676 --> 0:06:43.196 just doing nice thing. It comes from going through it. 0:06:42.876 --> 0:06:46.396 So that so that energy can be used as fuel 0:06:46.756 --> 0:06:50.476 for your freedom as opposed to feel that incinerates you. 0:06:51.196 --> 0:06:56.316 And does trauma always manifest itself through physical symptoms? Most 0:06:56.516 --> 0:07:02.516 often trauma has an embodied physical component that we don't 0:07:03.396 --> 0:07:06.916 many times relate to the trauma that we've been exposed to. 0:07:07.316 --> 0:07:11.196 And I believe through interrogation and through excavation, I believe 0:07:11.236 --> 0:07:15.476 you begin to see how the physical pieces show up. 0:07:15.476 --> 0:07:19.316 But at the beginning most of us don't equate physicalness 0:07:19.316 --> 0:07:23.036 with trauma. But in terms of my work, I do. So, 0:07:23.436 --> 0:07:28.276 what are some examples of physical reactions to pass trauma 0:07:28.316 --> 0:07:31.956 that you found? A classic one is not sleeping, having 0:07:32.236 --> 0:07:38.156 a bracing quality and energy that in which you have 0:07:38.236 --> 0:07:41.156 a sense that the next shoe is getting ready to drop, 0:07:41.316 --> 0:07:43.676 especially when we're talking like when I'm talking about in 0:07:43.756 --> 0:07:47.916 terms of racialized trauma, many people have neck pains or 0:07:47.996 --> 0:07:50.556 back pains, things that show up in their hips or 0:07:50.596 --> 0:07:53.276 things that show up in there so as in the body. 0:07:54.236 --> 0:07:58.236 I've done a lot of work on the post Soviet world, 0:07:58.316 --> 0:08:02.116 including in Ukraine and in Russia. I worked on a 0:08:02.116 --> 0:08:04.116 book about the Gulag. I worked about a book on 0:08:04.156 --> 0:08:07.356 the Ukrainian famine. And these are also places where people 0:08:07.396 --> 0:08:11.996 have long legacies of memories of physical violence or parents 0:08:11.636 --> 0:08:17.076 who've experienced physical violence. Is the kind of racialized trauma 0:08:17.156 --> 0:08:20.676 you're talking about different from that? Or is it? Or 0:08:20.676 --> 0:08:23.836 are we talking about the same phenomenon just you know, 0:08:23.956 --> 0:08:27.316 playing itself out and differently in different cultures. So yes, 0:08:27.436 --> 0:08:30.396 when we're talking about the Second World War, when we're 0:08:30.436 --> 0:08:33.956 talking about googlas, when we're talking about those things, that 0:08:34.236 --> 0:08:39.036 is a trauma manifestation that is absolutely traumatizing, and with 0:08:39.236 --> 0:08:44.556 particular to America, with particular to colonial trauma that I'm 0:08:44.596 --> 0:08:48.236 talking about my underlying pieces that we live in a 0:08:48.396 --> 0:08:52.236 structure by which the white body is the supreme standard 0:08:52.476 --> 0:08:56.796 by which all bodies humanity shall be measured and both 0:08:56.836 --> 0:09:01.036 structurally and philosophically, And what happens is because of that 0:09:01.196 --> 0:09:06.716 organizing structure, what happens is that any body that isn't 0:09:06.756 --> 0:09:11.556 housed in a white body is structurally deviant from that standard. 0:09:11.796 --> 0:09:14.476 That in and of itself is traumatizing. That's why I'm 0:09:14.516 --> 0:09:17.796 talking about the racialized trauma, so we can get at 0:09:17.836 --> 0:09:21.556 the racial pieces and the underpinnings of those racial pieces 0:09:21.636 --> 0:09:23.596 as a way to trauma. So, yes, there are some 0:09:23.676 --> 0:09:25.916 of the same effects, some of the same effects in 0:09:25.996 --> 0:09:29.356 terms of intergenerational passtowns, some of the same effects in 0:09:29.436 --> 0:09:34.636 terms of historical passtown in terms of persistent institutional pass downs, 0:09:34.676 --> 0:09:37.716 and then our own personal traumas. So yes, all of 0:09:37.716 --> 0:09:40.036 those things get organized around it. But I'm talking about 0:09:40.076 --> 0:09:42.636 it in a particular way as it relates to race. 0:09:43.516 --> 0:09:46.476 But are you suggesting this is something that has particularly 0:09:46.476 --> 0:09:50.716 to do with the American experience. So black Americans descended 0:09:50.756 --> 0:09:54.116 from enslaved Americans or is this the ord or is 0:09:54.116 --> 0:09:56.996 it more prevalent. I think it's more prevalent because if 0:09:56.996 --> 0:09:59.676 you look at if you look at the islands in 0:09:59.756 --> 0:10:03.236 Jamaica and South America, is that that's just where the 0:10:03.276 --> 0:10:07.676 boat stopped, where some of the enslaved people got off. 0:10:08.276 --> 0:10:12.636 Some of those white body supremacy pieces, the organizing structures 0:10:12.636 --> 0:10:18.516 of those also took place in those places, right England, Portugal, Spain, 0:10:19.276 --> 0:10:25.156 Belgium and France. Those five superpowers created a sense of 0:10:25.276 --> 0:10:30.156 who was human and who was not, and used pigmentation 0:10:30.236 --> 0:10:32.916 as a shorthand for who was human and who was not. 0:10:33.476 --> 0:10:35.476 So all you had to do is look at somebody 0:10:35.516 --> 0:10:38.436 and you could tell whether or not they were savages, 0:10:39.276 --> 0:10:42.316 or whether or not they were fully human and that 0:10:42.556 --> 0:10:48.236 ethos has been woven through every place that the colonization went. 0:10:48.836 --> 0:10:51.276 What worries me about what you're describing is if it's 0:10:51.276 --> 0:10:55.116 something that affects everybody, and if it's inescapable in a 0:10:55.156 --> 0:10:58.796 certain sense, how can it be solved? Are we talking 0:10:58.796 --> 0:11:01.996 about group therapy? What advice are you offering to overcome 0:11:02.476 --> 0:11:08.276 this long legacy? It's not inescapable. So the solvable pieces 0:11:08.316 --> 0:11:11.796 of this, for me, really is about beginning to have 0:11:12.076 --> 0:11:15.556 us begin to pay attention to what's to what's showing up, 0:11:15.796 --> 0:11:18.596 and not just overrided or act like it's not a 0:11:18.636 --> 0:11:22.876 big deal. Actually beginning to say this is something that 0:11:23.116 --> 0:11:26.996 is an issue in terms of racialized trauma, that the 0:11:27.036 --> 0:11:30.076 ways that we have been organized show up as it 0:11:30.116 --> 0:11:33.516 means to protect us, and we must begin to develop 0:11:33.676 --> 0:11:38.556 communal ways, cultural ways of getting at those pieces, beginning 0:11:38.596 --> 0:11:41.876 at the vibratory aspects of it, the behavior and the 0:11:42.036 --> 0:11:44.596 urges of it. We have to begin to do that. 0:11:44.596 --> 0:11:47.436 That's what makes it solvable, and so communities of people 0:11:47.876 --> 0:11:51.516 have to begin to do this work. Could you maybe 0:11:51.556 --> 0:11:54.876 walk us through some of the things that you're suggesting 0:11:54.916 --> 0:11:58.196 people could begin with, I mean, what are the exercises, 0:11:58.236 --> 0:12:04.596 whether individual or communal, that could be carried out. One 0:12:04.596 --> 0:12:07.396 of the things that happens when I'm working with bodies 0:12:07.396 --> 0:12:11.036 who who are experience in racialized trauma. One of the 0:12:11.036 --> 0:12:13.476 things that I do is I begin to talk to 0:12:13.516 --> 0:12:17.756 them about moving their neck in a way that allows 0:12:17.836 --> 0:12:22.156 them to look behind them and find windows and find doors. 0:12:22.596 --> 0:12:25.356 Because the pass down has been what I call a 0:12:25.356 --> 0:12:29.436 traumatic retention, and the traumatic retention is that I learned 0:12:29.716 --> 0:12:33.236 things about how to navigate in the world from what 0:12:33.356 --> 0:12:39.956 my caregivers lean into and recoiled from. And so when 0:12:39.996 --> 0:12:43.836 I notice the bracing, the kind of vibratory bracing in 0:12:43.876 --> 0:12:47.156 their bodies, my nervous system also picks up on that 0:12:47.396 --> 0:12:54.556 and it becomes decontextualized. In each successive generation. Time decontextualizes trauma. 0:12:54.636 --> 0:12:59.196 Time itself decontextualizes trauma, and so trauma and a person 0:12:59.436 --> 0:13:05.116 over time can look like personality. Trauma and a family 0:13:05.276 --> 0:13:10.116 over time can look like family traits, and trauma and 0:13:10.236 --> 0:13:14.196 a people over time can look like culture. So having 0:13:14.236 --> 0:13:18.196 people begin to look around, or if they come from 0:13:18.196 --> 0:13:20.756 a people that have been traumatized, begin to have them 0:13:20.796 --> 0:13:25.036 look behind them, look for exits, look for safe places 0:13:25.036 --> 0:13:28.236 where they can leave, because for many of our bodies 0:13:28.276 --> 0:13:32.116 we have not had that, and so orienting is one 0:13:32.116 --> 0:13:34.236 of the first things I begin to do. Second thing 0:13:34.236 --> 0:13:37.916 I begin to do a self incommunal grounding, beginning to 0:13:37.956 --> 0:13:42.276 have people have some sense, no matter how small, develop 0:13:42.436 --> 0:13:47.156 some sense discernment in the body that they are present, 0:13:47.676 --> 0:13:51.036 now that they are in this space and in this time, 0:13:51.116 --> 0:13:55.116 so very small little things like noticing their butt on 0:13:55.116 --> 0:13:58.756 a hard surface, noticing their feet inside their shoes, and 0:13:58.876 --> 0:14:02.036 communities can begin to do this with each other. The 0:14:02.156 --> 0:14:05.476 third one is self in communal movement, beginning to move 0:14:05.796 --> 0:14:10.596 congruently and incongruently together to have some sense of communal alignment. 0:14:11.036 --> 0:14:14.276 And then the fourth thing is self in communal touch 0:14:14.636 --> 0:14:17.636 and verbalizing and wailing. Those are the things that I 0:14:17.796 --> 0:14:20.716 used to begin to help people move through these pieces. 0:14:22.196 --> 0:14:25.836 In my work with people who've either experienced traumatic famine 0:14:26.316 --> 0:14:31.396 or incarceration unfair incarceration in Soviet camps, as well as 0:14:31.476 --> 0:14:34.756 their children. One of the things that they often have 0:14:34.956 --> 0:14:38.916 said or have simply practiced in their lives is to 0:14:39.516 --> 0:14:43.236 join something positive. In other words, not to deny that 0:14:43.316 --> 0:14:47.636 it happened, but to throw themselves into a positive project, 0:14:48.236 --> 0:14:50.796 whether it's you know, after the war we all got 0:14:50.836 --> 0:14:56.516 together and we rebuilt Kiev, or we constructed the Ukrainian 0:14:56.556 --> 0:15:01.516 independence movement in the nineteen nineties, and the experience of 0:15:01.756 --> 0:15:05.636 doing something positive for their fellow sufferers sometimes or for 0:15:05.676 --> 0:15:10.236 their for their compatriots, that was all. Often the way 0:15:10.276 --> 0:15:13.796 to get over the trauma is that something that interests you, 0:15:14.316 --> 0:15:17.276 that kind of as I said, a positive political or 0:15:17.356 --> 0:15:24.356 social or communal project. Well, two pieces to them. The 0:15:24.436 --> 0:15:29.756 examples that you used are all examples of the trauma 0:15:29.876 --> 0:15:33.996 actually stopping. There was a there was a stop point, something, 0:15:34.676 --> 0:15:37.876 there was some type of intervention, and the trauma stopped. 0:15:37.956 --> 0:15:40.876 When I'm talking about indigenous people here in America and 0:15:40.916 --> 0:15:45.396 I'm talking about Black Americans, the trauma is persistent. It 0:15:45.476 --> 0:15:50.316 hasn't stopped. And so that's one key difference. The other 0:15:50.436 --> 0:15:53.916 key difference is that the idea of getting over the 0:15:53.996 --> 0:15:57.356 trauma is not the same as metabolizing the trauma. And 0:15:58.156 --> 0:16:02.076 let me say this, in the movement of doing something, 0:16:02.396 --> 0:16:05.116 you can begin to metabolize it. But I'm not I'm 0:16:05.156 --> 0:16:07.756 not suggesting that there is a getting over this. I 0:16:07.796 --> 0:16:11.396 am suggesting that the energy that exists with regard to 0:16:11.436 --> 0:16:14.796 trauma when it shows up, is designed to protect us, 0:16:14.956 --> 0:16:17.716 to help us to survive. The problem is is that 0:16:17.716 --> 0:16:20.876 when we've gone through a prolonged period of time with trauma, 0:16:21.036 --> 0:16:23.956 that thing that we've been using in order to survive 0:16:24.036 --> 0:16:28.716 it doesn't just dissipate. You have to begin to metabolize 0:16:28.716 --> 0:16:34.116 that energy. Otherwise the protective mechanisms that you've developed as 0:16:34.156 --> 0:16:38.396 survival now become decontextualized and you begin to use that 0:16:38.876 --> 0:16:43.236 as a standard. And so that's the difference. Let me 0:16:43.396 --> 0:16:47.876 shift the focus for a moment to COVID nineteen because 0:16:47.956 --> 0:16:50.476 I'm wondering if there are things that we should all 0:16:50.516 --> 0:16:53.396 be thinking about and paying attention to, you know, in 0:16:53.436 --> 0:16:56.516 our bodies and our minds, using some of your the 0:16:56.556 --> 0:16:59.836 work that you've done to address the trauma of this time, 0:17:00.396 --> 0:17:02.476 so that we're less likely to pass it along or 0:17:02.596 --> 0:17:05.076 less likely to suffer it in the future. I realize 0:17:05.076 --> 0:17:10.356 that this isn't as profound or as widespread, as multigenerational 0:17:10.516 --> 0:17:14.596 as racialized trauma, but it is something that you know, 0:17:14.596 --> 0:17:16.356 there are a lot of people suffering out there. Is 0:17:16.396 --> 0:17:19.836 there is there something we should be aware of now? Absolutely, 0:17:19.876 --> 0:17:25.156 there's a lot like like, even though this isn't intergenerational. 0:17:25.316 --> 0:17:29.356 One of the things that we know that mass amounts 0:17:29.436 --> 0:17:34.396 of death can cause a global stress on human beings, 0:17:34.396 --> 0:17:36.676 and we've all we all know it. Like being locked 0:17:37.036 --> 0:17:39.756 in a house and not being able to move like 0:17:39.876 --> 0:17:45.516 you're like you're used to, can create a weightedness to us. 0:17:45.756 --> 0:17:48.396 Right A lot of my work now is how to 0:17:49.036 --> 0:17:53.436 is helping people begin to orient online with each other, 0:17:53.676 --> 0:17:55.636 not for you don't have to do it for long 0:17:55.676 --> 0:17:58.516 periods of time, but to see another face and to 0:17:58.636 --> 0:18:02.236 hear another laugh or to share stories, even if it's 0:18:02.276 --> 0:18:06.876 not in person for right now can be helpful. Even 0:18:06.956 --> 0:18:11.236 though it's not the best, it is something to have 0:18:11.476 --> 0:18:14.356 somebody else see your face and smile and say I'm 0:18:14.396 --> 0:18:17.756 glad you're here. That is important and I think that 0:18:17.836 --> 0:18:22.436 can't be short changed as just well it's just zoom. Well, yes, 0:18:22.436 --> 0:18:26.076 it's just zoom, and we need those types of things. Also, 0:18:27.556 --> 0:18:30.876 working with trauma survivors has to be some of the 0:18:31.196 --> 0:18:35.036 that must be one of the hardest things anybody can do. 0:18:35.036 --> 0:18:38.436 Do you have advice for both for practitioners but also 0:18:38.476 --> 0:18:41.316 for all the rest of us about how to be empathetic. 0:18:41.956 --> 0:18:44.756 You know, predicate this moment you know, without taking on 0:18:44.796 --> 0:18:48.676 the pain of somebody else but sympathizing with them, helping 0:18:48.716 --> 0:18:52.196 them through difficult times, what's the best way to do it? 0:18:52.636 --> 0:18:54.836 That really is a great question because one of the 0:18:54.916 --> 0:18:58.236 things that happens is that we don't account for what 0:18:58.276 --> 0:19:01.676 I call vicarious and secondary trauma. Right many times when 0:19:01.676 --> 0:19:04.396 we're trying to help somebody who's been traumatized, we don't 0:19:04.396 --> 0:19:07.476 account for the fact that we can actually be traumatized 0:19:07.876 --> 0:19:11.076 by watching them go through it. One of the most 0:19:11.116 --> 0:19:15.396 important things is to check in with your body. Check 0:19:15.516 --> 0:19:19.196 in with yourself on a regular basis, do I have 0:19:19.356 --> 0:19:22.436 enough resource in room to be of aid to this 0:19:22.596 --> 0:19:26.716 other body? And if the answer is no or not quite, 0:19:27.116 --> 0:19:30.956 listen to that. So it is really a communal beginning 0:19:30.956 --> 0:19:33.996 to develop more of a communal sense of how we 0:19:34.036 --> 0:19:36.436 take care of each other and how we listen to 0:19:36.476 --> 0:19:40.516 what our bodies are telling us, as opposed to more 0:19:40.516 --> 0:19:42.916 of an individual sense, and that is we have to 0:19:42.996 --> 0:19:48.716 override everything that's showing up in order to provide something 0:19:48.756 --> 0:19:52.236 for somebody else. And that usually works for a moment, 0:19:52.356 --> 0:19:55.396 but then over time you start to notice things like 0:19:55.436 --> 0:19:59.076 anxiety and depression and sleeping stuff and eating stuff and 0:19:59.116 --> 0:20:03.116 all of those things that are indicators that you are overwhelmed. 0:20:04.436 --> 0:20:08.316 Do the ways that you think about racialized trauma ever change. 0:20:09.436 --> 0:20:12.516 I'm thinking about the awful murder of George Floyd. It 0:20:12.596 --> 0:20:16.116 was so widely experienced across the world. Did that change 0:20:16.116 --> 0:20:18.196 how you think about your practice or does it shift 0:20:18.236 --> 0:20:22.116 how we should be thinking about healing trauma. So the 0:20:22.116 --> 0:20:27.076 first piece is that the George Floyd trauma for me 0:20:27.196 --> 0:20:30.276 in terms of my work, is a law, is an 0:20:30.316 --> 0:20:33.516 extension of a long line of traumas that I've had 0:20:33.556 --> 0:20:36.636 to deal with here in Minnesota, in particular with regard 0:20:36.676 --> 0:20:41.956 to Jamar Clark, atlanda castile, all of these types of 0:20:42.076 --> 0:20:46.436 murders at the hands of the state. When a black 0:20:46.516 --> 0:20:51.116 body is murdered on TV or we see that type 0:20:51.116 --> 0:20:55.036 of stuff, the impact of it is not just personal. 0:20:56.116 --> 0:21:00.116 We're dealing with the historical energy that has gone unresolved, 0:21:00.516 --> 0:21:05.156 the intergenerational energy that has gone unresolved with regard to 0:21:05.276 --> 0:21:10.036 murdering and the slaying of black bodies, the persistent institutional 0:21:10.716 --> 0:21:15.036 energy when these particular things continue to happen. The thing 0:21:15.236 --> 0:21:19.596 is is that the outpouring that you see is many 0:21:19.636 --> 0:21:25.356 times performative. It is not sustainable because it's that there 0:21:25.396 --> 0:21:29.356 is no cultural container to hold a living embodied anti 0:21:29.476 --> 0:21:33.396 racist culture and practice that can get at the structural 0:21:33.436 --> 0:21:36.676 white body supremacy. So what will happen is that people 0:21:36.716 --> 0:21:40.556 will have a response either of shock or a response 0:21:40.716 --> 0:21:46.356 of being mortified, but there is nothing to sustain the 0:21:46.476 --> 0:21:50.196 change of it as it relates to black and indigenous bodies. 0:21:50.196 --> 0:21:53.076 And so what you end up having is people going 0:21:53.116 --> 0:21:57.596 into shock, and particular white bodies going into shock. And 0:21:57.716 --> 0:22:00.756 what happens over time is that you start to see online, 0:22:01.156 --> 0:22:04.396 you start to see the George Floyd pictures and the 0:22:04.556 --> 0:22:09.676 Brianna Taylor pictures shift back to cats and people taking 0:22:09.676 --> 0:22:14.116 pictures of their food. Is because there is no sustained 0:22:14.116 --> 0:22:18.956 culture around living embodying anti racist culture and practices. And 0:22:18.996 --> 0:22:22.356 so for me, and with regard to the white community, 0:22:22.356 --> 0:22:25.836 the white community has to begin to work and deal 0:22:25.956 --> 0:22:29.196 with that stuff and that energy and create culture to 0:22:29.236 --> 0:22:33.476 examine and interrogate whiteness and white body supremacy. So in 0:22:33.516 --> 0:22:35.356 my work, one of the things that I've been doing 0:22:35.396 --> 0:22:39.556 a lot is helping people begin to grapple with that. 0:22:39.596 --> 0:22:44.276 This is about a cultural cultivation and evolution, not a 0:22:44.436 --> 0:22:50.036 performative action plan. That's what's been showing up since with 0:22:50.076 --> 0:22:52.516 regard to George Floyd in a series of other murders. 0:22:53.596 --> 0:22:57.756 That leads me to the final question that we always 0:22:57.756 --> 0:23:00.436 ask on this program, but it seems particularly pertinent here, 0:23:01.036 --> 0:23:05.716 which is what advice do you offer listeners and for 0:23:05.836 --> 0:23:09.036 their family and friends, you know, how can they deep 0:23:09.156 --> 0:23:12.596 in their understanding of long term trauma and how can 0:23:12.636 --> 0:23:15.996 they help to heal it? Right. So, my book is 0:23:15.996 --> 0:23:17.996 one of the first books to kind of try and 0:23:18.036 --> 0:23:19.636 bring all of this stuff together. So one of the 0:23:19.636 --> 0:23:22.676 first things I suggested people do is get my grandmother's 0:23:22.716 --> 0:23:26.956 hands and then began to study and work with some 0:23:27.036 --> 0:23:30.396 of the practices and information in the book, began to 0:23:30.436 --> 0:23:35.196 work with that individually slowly. There's some other books and 0:23:35.236 --> 0:23:38.316 resources that I'd also like to mention to you, Anne. 0:23:38.836 --> 0:23:41.916 One of them is Me and My White Supremacy by 0:23:42.036 --> 0:23:49.876 layla Aside, White Fragility by Robin D'Angelo, Radical Joy by 0:23:50.196 --> 0:23:57.076 doctor Joy Lewis, anything from Adrian Marie Brown or Rachel Cargill. 0:23:57.556 --> 0:24:02.436 And then and then my website, resume dot com has 0:24:02.476 --> 0:24:05.876 a lot of free content on there, as well as 0:24:06.436 --> 0:24:09.556 my Instagram. If they go to resume menicum. I do 0:24:09.596 --> 0:24:11.796 a lot of free videos up there for people to 0:24:11.836 --> 0:24:14.316 begin to work with this. People. Nobody wants to talk 0:24:14.356 --> 0:24:18.356 about race, right, nobody wants to wants to embody what 0:24:18.516 --> 0:24:23.076 race actually is in the concept of our white body supremacy. 0:24:23.116 --> 0:24:25.076 Nobody wants to do that. I suggest in the white 0:24:25.116 --> 0:24:29.556 community that has to start happening now, so this stuff 0:24:29.596 --> 0:24:34.436 has not passed on to children in the black embodies 0:24:34.436 --> 0:24:37.116 of culture communities, I think we have to start beginning 0:24:37.116 --> 0:24:40.556 to talk about the impacts of white body supremacy on 0:24:40.716 --> 0:24:44.996 us and how it has created in us things that 0:24:45.116 --> 0:24:49.236 we have not addressed. So like structural issues around our 0:24:49.316 --> 0:24:53.476 sense of fraudulence, imposterate and colorism and all of that 0:24:53.516 --> 0:24:56.196 different type of stuff. Those pieces have to be dealt 0:24:56.236 --> 0:25:00.276 with in community. Start beginning to work with this stuff. 0:25:00.316 --> 0:25:03.956 We can no longer avoid it. If January six, if 0:25:03.956 --> 0:25:07.156 the attack of the American capital taught us nothing, is 0:25:07.156 --> 0:25:11.436 that this stuff is seething and simmering underneath. It has 0:25:11.476 --> 0:25:14.876 not gone anywhere. It is part of the bedrock of America, 0:25:14.956 --> 0:25:17.996 and if we don't pay attention to it, it will 0:25:18.116 --> 0:25:25.756 destroy us. Resumemnicem is an author and psychotherapist working in Minneapolis. 0:25:26.436 --> 0:25:29.076 If you or someone you know is suffering from trauma 0:25:29.156 --> 0:25:32.836 and in crisis, please seek help. You can call eight 0:25:32.916 --> 0:25:36.996 hundred two seven three Talk eight hundred two seven three 0:25:37.396 --> 0:25:41.836 Talk any time, day or night. To learn more about 0:25:41.916 --> 0:25:46.516 racialized trauma and for additional trauma support resources, please check 0:25:46.556 --> 0:25:50.516 out the links in our show notes. Solvable Senior producer 0:25:50.596 --> 0:25:54.836 is Jocelyn Frank, Research and booking by Lisa Dunn. Catherine 0:25:54.876 --> 0:25:58.436 Girardo is our managing producer, and our executive producer is 0:25:58.476 --> 0:26:02.556 Mia Lobell. Solvable is a production of Pushkin Industries. If 0:26:02.556 --> 0:26:04.956 you like the show, please remember to share a rate 0:26:04.996 --> 0:26:07.556 and review it. It really helps us get the word out. 0:26:08.236 --> 0:26:11.356 You can find push and podcasts wherever you listen, including 0:26:11.396 --> 0:26:16.076 on the iHeartRadio app and Apple podcasts. I'm Jacob Weisber