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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, they.

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Speaker 3: Called me Ben. We're joined as always with our super

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Speaker 3: producer Andrew Treyforce Howard. Most importantly, you are you. You

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Speaker 3: are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want

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Speaker 3: you to know. But yeah, yeah, we're going to trial.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, do you hear that we're supporting? Not yet,

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Speaker 3: we edged toward that. When folks, the energy is live,

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Speaker 3: we are in person, which is quite a rare treat

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Speaker 3: for us. And we started asking, so we're always pitching

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Speaker 3: ideas to each other, right, and we started asking, Hey,

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Speaker 3: does anybody remember the weird, surreal wasteland of daytime TV

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Speaker 3: before streaming?

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Speaker 4: Right, surely it still exists to some degree, right, very much? So, okay,

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Speaker 4: blissfully unaware of it.

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Speaker 3: Spin offs of every reality show you've ever heard of,

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Speaker 3: rights telenovela is still very big. Occasionally you'll also see

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Speaker 3: the news, but they keep that brief because they got

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Speaker 3: to get back to you know, as the world turns. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: regularly scheduled.

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Speaker 2: With the election coverage that just happened, people were actually

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Speaker 2: watching TV right and on. I watched it in Instagram

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Speaker 2: live from the Daily Show, and they had to keep pushing, like,

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Speaker 2: turn on your television, your television, watch tonight on your television.

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Speaker 3: Parents have that doesn't move seriously, Yeah, that's It's true.

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Speaker 3: Reality TV has dominant aided. Reality TV and soaps have

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Speaker 3: dominated daytime television for so long. And if you're of

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Speaker 3: a certain age in the United States, you may recall

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Speaker 3: a unique genre of reality TV. From far enough way.

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Speaker 3: It looks like a courtroom. There's someone who looks like

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Speaker 3: a judge. There are people who act like defendants. There

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Speaker 3: there may be folks who strongly resemble lawyers, and maybe

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Speaker 3: you know as sassy bailiff kind of always like you

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Speaker 3: know it your honor.

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Speaker 5: It's an important part of the cast ensemble.

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Speaker 3: And so our question, guys, you know, and so our

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Speaker 3: question tonight is are these court TV shows real? Sorry,

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Speaker 3: we had some friends from the office come in a

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Speaker 3: wave time. Oh man, he keeps saying he's not a

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Speaker 3: cop anyway, that's our cold open.

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Speaker 5: He has to tell us if he's a cop.

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Speaker 3: Untrue.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we've found out.

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Speaker 3: Here are the facts. To know what a TV court

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Speaker 3: show is, we have to look at a little bit

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Speaker 3: of history, and honestly, it's surprising because you may not

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Speaker 3: know this, folks. The ancestors of the court shows you

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Speaker 3: see on television or streaming today they come from radio,

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Speaker 3: not television.

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Speaker 4: Well it makes sense, I mean, yeah, it's not a

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Speaker 4: particularly visually captivating medium. But and let's to be clear too,

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Speaker 4: we're talking about like, not like night court we're talking

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Speaker 4: about which.

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Speaker 3: Is awesome, yeah, with the God I love Nightmare.

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Speaker 4: We're talking about like the People's Court or Judge Judy

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Speaker 4: and execution.

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Speaker 3: Judge Joe Brown, divorce Court. Yeah, and stakes are real

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Speaker 3: or are they? All? Right? So let's travel back. It's

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Speaker 3: the mid nineteen thirties. We're talking depression era. Life is

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Speaker 3: super not great for a lot of people, and they

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Speaker 3: want distractions, they want fantasy, They want another nicer world

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Speaker 3: to live in, even if only for thirty minutes to pop.

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Speaker 3: And so television was available since nineteen twenties right to

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Speaker 3: the Riggie Riches and the Scrooge McDucks of the world,

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Speaker 3: but it doesn't become America's main media venue until after

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Speaker 3: World War Two, when everybody was able to buy a house,

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Speaker 3: have two point five kids, it was possible to own

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Speaker 3: your own car, and then of course you buy the box.

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Speaker 3: Now you watch TV.

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Speaker 4: Previously it was literally families gathered around the radio using

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Speaker 4: their collective imaginations to picture the characters like the Shadow

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Speaker 4: or whatever.

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Speaker 2: Right, it's a lot like how people gather around their

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Speaker 2: Alexas now and listen to this show. That's like they're

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Speaker 2: doing right now.

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Speaker 3: Oh, come on, I know beak her name by the way.

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Speaker 3: I know, I know you're working out, I know you're

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Speaker 3: doing the dishes, and you know what you're doing. A

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Speaker 3: great job, serious positive affirmations there.

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Speaker 4: I think my Alexa is ill. She does not respond

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Speaker 4: the way she used to. I don't know if I

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Speaker 4: need like a hot update or something like that, but man,

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Speaker 4: she hears her name in every piece of dialogue from

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Speaker 4: television and interrupts my viewing experience on the regular.

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Speaker 3: And we're not going to do the prank that we

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Speaker 3: did previously because some people did not enjoy that. But

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Speaker 3: check out our earlier episodes on surveillance.

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Speaker 2: Do you think there will be couples counseling for personal

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Speaker 2: assistance where it's like a user and a personal assistant.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I think there will be AI avatar personal counseling.

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Speaker 3: So you'll you'll get your AI avatar because people are

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Speaker 3: dating via chat, GBT and so on. Now, so you'll

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Speaker 3: just get the AI avatars to go to therapy with

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Speaker 3: each other and then they'll come back and tell you

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Speaker 3: what they learned, and then they'll tell you it was

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Speaker 3: a success.

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Speaker 4: Can't we just go back to peopling like you know,

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Speaker 4: I mean, come on, I'm all about too much, too much, guys,

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Speaker 4: it's gone too far.

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Speaker 3: That came off weird.

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Speaker 2: Well, when people are hanging out together, they get into arguments,

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Speaker 2: they get into situations.

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Speaker 5: Right, we are currently in the situation.

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Speaker 2: Then you got to go to court.

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Speaker 3: Bringing it back. Yeah. The golden age of radio lasts

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Speaker 3: from the nineteen twenties till television takes over in the

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Speaker 3: mid nineteen fifties. This is the origin of dramatic serialized narratives.

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Speaker 3: I'd like to play one example here. Of course, it's

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Speaker 3: a classic, and I don't think we'll get sued. I

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Speaker 3: want to get sued. Can you guess what this is?

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Speaker 5: Sounds spooky?

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Speaker 3: Huh?

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Speaker 2: HP Lovecraft presents.

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Speaker 3: Who knows what evil lies in the hearts of men?

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Speaker 3: Who knows evil? It lurks, that's it, lurks.

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Speaker 2: What is that? What is it?

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Speaker 3: It's Alec Baldlin. No wait wait, oh, we missed it.

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Speaker 3: He knows. Do you remember The Shadow?

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Speaker 4: But the film starring Alec Baldlin as the Shadow did

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Speaker 4: not do well.

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Speaker 3: No, yeah, it did do well.

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Speaker 4: Then there was The Phantom with Billy zaying. The Phantom

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Speaker 4: was also another Golden age radio show.

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Speaker 3: Didn't do didn't do super well. These are adaptations, this

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Speaker 3: is uh, these are spook stories to tell in the dark,

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Speaker 3: similar to what we did with Thirteen Days of Halloween,

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Speaker 3: and people like we're saying, gathered around, listened to the

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Speaker 3: radio with rapt attention. It was something we would call

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Speaker 3: cinema of the mind. And all of that changed for radio.

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Speaker 3: On March first, nineteen thirty two, a twenty month year

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Speaker 3: old child named Charles Augustus Lindbergh Junior was kidnapped in

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Speaker 3: a tragedy that drew national attention. The Lindburg Baby. The

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Speaker 3: Limburg people.

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Speaker 4: You're always talk going on about the Lindburg Baby constantly.

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Speaker 3: We're talking to Andrew Treforce, Howard you want to stop,

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Speaker 3: and I'm like, come on, man, yeah, I get it,

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Speaker 3: I get it. It was a long time ago, Andrew.

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Speaker 3: I'm shooting Drew a look to make sure we're still cool.

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Speaker 3: He's shooting you one right back. It's a look for sure.

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Speaker 3: All right. Later it's May twelfth. Unfortunately this child is

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Speaker 3: found dead. Oh sorry, I'm at all those jokes. It's

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Speaker 3: long past. But this investigation that ensues the arrest of

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Speaker 3: a German immigrant named Bruno Richard Hoftman, and then the

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Speaker 3: subsequent trial, they capture the imagination of America. People are

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Speaker 3: going blow by blow. They're buying the newspaper at four

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Speaker 3: in the morning to get the latest hot costs.

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Speaker 4: This is the predecessor to like the OJ Simpson craze,

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Speaker 4: you know, I mean one hundred percent. This was very new,

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Speaker 4: the ability to cover something like this and to essentially

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Speaker 4: make it a cultural event, pop cultural moments.

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Speaker 2: Yes, oh yep. Stone When when you are getting your

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Speaker 2: information as soon as the newspapers can print it and

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Speaker 2: get it out to you, that's one thing that's a

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Speaker 2: certain amount of time. But then when somebody can just

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Speaker 2: turn on a microphone on scene outside the courtroom or

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Speaker 2: something that is a whole different level of feeling like

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Speaker 2: you're in the moment.

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Speaker 3: While this is occurring, living vicariously right. Flip on the

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Speaker 3: radio and we know it's we know it's two pm Eastern,

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Speaker 3: and now we're here with live updates because they were

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Speaker 3: still using that voice. This is true crime. This is

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Speaker 3: the earliest example getting yeah, because the kidnapping and the

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Speaker 3: trial of hop And could be an episode all their own.

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Speaker 3: We'll need Andrew on obviously, but for our purposes tonight,

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Speaker 3: we have to know the American public was glued to

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Speaker 3: every step, not just every development and investigation, but every

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Speaker 3: bit of speculation. This was the water cooler talk, and

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Speaker 3: the courtroom was crowded to the Eves family, reporters, law

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Speaker 3: enforcement lookie loose. People were like you were saying earlier, Matt,

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Speaker 3: waiting eagerly outside just to figure out what happened, and

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Speaker 3: often to be the first person who could report it,

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Speaker 3: or to be the first person who could tell their friends.

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Speaker 3: This trial ran from January to February of nineteen thirty five.

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Speaker 3: Hoptman never said he was guilty, never confessed, always said

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Speaker 3: he was innocent. None of his appeals succeeded. He was

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Speaker 3: eventually electrocuted. He was executed in the electric chair in

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Speaker 3: New Jersey on April third of nineteen thirty six, and

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Speaker 3: people were still following the story for years now. Part

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Speaker 3: of it is because the Limberg fan lose so high profile.

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Speaker 3: Part of it is the Golden Age radio, the brutality

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Speaker 3: of the crime. They mixed together like ingredients and a

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Speaker 3: stew and this created what you're talking about, No, a

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Speaker 3: great appetite for court shows. The American public was fascinated.

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Speaker 3: They wanted to hear more trials, They wanted to hear

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Speaker 3: more legal proceedings, and ideally they wanted it to be exciting.

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Speaker 3: They didn't want the man bites, dog bites, ban cases.

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Speaker 3: They didn't want someone arguing about their property line or

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Speaker 3: their fits. They wanted the murder. They wanted the heist.

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Speaker 4: Because in theory, right, couldn't even like the most boring

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Speaker 4: of trials be televised if there were a demand for it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you could take the court transcript and have people

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Speaker 3: read it back. It's all public record, you know.

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Speaker 4: But like the thing that allows cameras, I've always been

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Speaker 4: a little confused about, like the legality behind cameras in

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Speaker 4: the court room. I mean, but there has to be

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Speaker 4: a demand for that for it to be like the

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Speaker 4: networks show up. But if there were a smaller, you know,

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Speaker 4: seemingly more boring case and there were interest, they could

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Speaker 4: they could film those, they could put those on TV.

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Speaker 3: M hmm, yeah, you could have something like c SPAN

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Speaker 3: and it's just twenty four hours of small claims court

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Speaker 3: TV is kind of yes, well, kind of yes. That's

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Speaker 3: I don't know what it is. So the radio studios,

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Speaker 3: the producers, the reporters, they respond quickly. They take the

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Speaker 3: public transcripts like we're mentioning the public reports, and they

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Speaker 3: make what we call recrease dramatizations, yeah, reenactments of high

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Speaker 3: visibility cases. They're looking for stuff that was the bloodiest,

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Speaker 3: the most brutal, or the most morally reprehensible. And dudes,

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Speaker 3: fellow conspiracy realist America loved this stuff. Leads. Do you

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Speaker 3: think true crime podcast are popular? Had nothing on this.

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Speaker 3: This was granddaddy. It was so new. It was just

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Speaker 3: defeating frenzy.

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Speaker 2: Well, imagine if a show like Up and Vanished was

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Speaker 2: just on one of the forward networks that existed at the.

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Speaker 4: Time, back when we had like that was it four choices?

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Speaker 4: I mean really like even that many shows per choice, like.

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Speaker 2: Everybody, oh that case now, because it's one of the

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Speaker 2: things you can listen to or watch.

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Speaker 3: And because other people are talking about it socially, a

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Speaker 3: feedback loop occurs, so even if you are not necessarily

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Speaker 3: interested in it, you're up to date on it, you know,

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Speaker 3: you kind of have to be. Yeah, it's like, you

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Speaker 3: know what's going on with the Yankees and the Mets

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Speaker 3: just because you live in New York you don't have

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Speaker 3: to go to the stadium to see them.

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Speaker 4: I mean, my partner's been watching the dramatization recree or

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Speaker 4: whatever of the Clinton Monica Lewinsky trials or whatever impeachment hearings,

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Speaker 4: and I mean that.

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Speaker 3: Was so huge.

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Speaker 4: They literally remade the whole thing as like a drama

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Speaker 4: fictionalized kind of account on television.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean they just did it with oj Simpson

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Speaker 2: like twice in a row of these. But like, the

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Speaker 2: guy is still here so much. Let's get let's get

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Speaker 2: back here. So we're still in radio land. We're in

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Speaker 2: the thirties.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we're in the thirties. And to get around they

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Speaker 3: have one other thing they had to do to get around,

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Speaker 3: the pot possibility of ending up in a real court

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Speaker 3: room because of their cute radio stories and going down

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Speaker 3: for libel and slander. The creators would go back and

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Speaker 3: take trials from decade years or decades past, and they

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Speaker 3: were often looking for a trial where the wherein all

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Speaker 3: of the original participants had died.

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Speaker 4: So they were worried about libel or slander accusations because

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Speaker 4: they were taking some liberties.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, with the with the transcripts. And also, you know,

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Speaker 3: how how far can you go in dramatic recreation before

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Speaker 3: you get to I'm kind of playing with the vacuuing

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Speaker 3: Yeah a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Well, well, in a lot of the facts could be hearsay right,

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Speaker 2: or at least argued to be here.

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Speaker 4: And in a court of law you have a judge

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Speaker 4: who will come down and say, ah, that should be

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Speaker 4: struck from the recordures.

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Speaker 3: In radio you have a host who probably had some

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Speaker 3: improv training and was like, yes, and is it possible

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Speaker 3: that the murderer was you know Welsh, which never shows

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Speaker 3: up in the court case. They just go back to

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Speaker 3: the transcript.

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Speaker 4: And then the Welsh Defamation League is up up your tail,

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Speaker 4: huge force huge.

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Speaker 3: They run all the f's in the language. It's a

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Speaker 3: joke for like two so many. Yeah. So this leads

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Speaker 3: us to the first ancestor what we call a court

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Speaker 3: show today, and it's on radio. It's named The Court

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Speaker 3: of Human Relations or The True Story Court of Human Relations.

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Speaker 3: I'm dumb. Yeah, Yeah. New Year's Day nineteen thirty four,

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Speaker 3: just a bit after the Limberg case, and they did

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Speaker 3: the reenactments. They had a guy called Percy Hemus playing

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Speaker 3: the judge. Percy was not a judge. He was an actor.

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Speaker 3: And I'm not a judge, but I just play one

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Speaker 3: on television. Right, right, is what he told officers, right?

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Speaker 3: What he got pulled over in his jealoppy anyway, I

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Speaker 3: would bet he happy he did better than that. Also,

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Speaker 3: Judge Reinhold, we're talking about this off air. I grew

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Speaker 3: up thinking that guy was a judge who happened to

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Speaker 3: be an actor. But not only is he not a judge,

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Speaker 3: Judge is even his real first name. That was news

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Speaker 3: to me.

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Speaker 4: But he did go on to delightfully portray a television

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Speaker 4: judge on Arrested Development. I believe it was called Judge Reinhold,

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Speaker 4: and it was making fun of the exact stuff that

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Speaker 4: we're talking about today.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and also he got the nickname Judge as a

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Speaker 3: baby because people saw he looked really stern and authoritative

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Speaker 3: and judgmental.

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Speaker 5: That is one judgmental baby right there.

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Speaker 3: That sounds mean to the kid. But the mugging everybody

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Speaker 3: all the time. So here's the brilliant thing about Percy's show.

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Speaker 3: All right, they would air this compilation of recreations, and

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Speaker 3: they would usually just go for the most exciting stuff,

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Speaker 3: not not all the ins and outs of procedure, just

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Speaker 3: the part where you know, it's like you're all right?

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Speaker 3: Is sustained? Good or bad? Sustained? Well, it depends on

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Speaker 3: if you're the person making the objection. If you're making

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Speaker 3: the objection and your objection is sustained, that means the

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Speaker 3: judge of grease, he.

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Speaker 4: Accepts your objection. What's the opposite of sustainable? Thank you,

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Speaker 4: thank you for getting our terminology.

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Speaker 3: Yeah straight. I always love it. I always love how

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Speaker 3: in copaganda there's a judge on the edge. He's like, hmm,

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Speaker 3: I allow it, but you're on thin ice.

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Speaker 4: I like the real Southern judge too, that's a real

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Speaker 4: ju judge.

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Speaker 3: Yes, also another good judge flavor. I love the I

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Speaker 3: love the move in a trial that's televised or you

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Speaker 3: know again the kind of propaganda stuff where the lawyer

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Speaker 3: asked a crazy out there should be a legal question

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Speaker 3: and uh, and they have to thing where it's like

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Speaker 3: did you or did you not murder that penguin objection

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Speaker 3: overruled withdrawing.

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Speaker 2: Well yeah, And then on this show they would go, hmm,

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Speaker 2: well what do you think? But they didn't have an

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Speaker 2: email addresser phone number any right.

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Speaker 3: That's the grift, that's the gas talk amongst yourselves friends.

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Speaker 3: Right before the end of every broadcast, Percy would come

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Speaker 3: in and invite everybody in the audience to render their

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Speaker 3: own verdict before they tell you what happened. And they

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Speaker 3: implied that they were immediately receiving correspondence from across the

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Speaker 3: United States and that determined what actually happened. It is

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Speaker 3: not the case. There was no way to contact the

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Speaker 3: radio station whatsoever. And they pulled this off for years brilliant,

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Speaker 3: pretty brilliant, ethical, diabolical, yeah, but brilliant. I respect it.

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Speaker 3: They ran from nineteen thirty four to nineteen thirty nine, which,

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Speaker 3: fun fact means stuff they don't want you to know

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Speaker 3: has been on air longer than the world's first court show.

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Speaker 2: We old.

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Speaker 3: I think it's you know, I think it's nacolade.

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Speaker 5: What is Yeah, maybe they'll give us a trophy for

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Speaker 5: it one maybe.

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Speaker 3: What was the next show?

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Speaker 2: Oh, this one's great. It was called Goodwill Court, So

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Speaker 2: people would go into their local goodwill and they would

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Speaker 2: buy things, and then the whole show is just haggling

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Speaker 2: about how much it should actually is that's true?

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Speaker 3: To make that joke. It turned into a It turned

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Speaker 3: into a romantic kind of reality program where and later

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Speaker 3: instead of arguing this was a ratings thing, they would

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Speaker 3: have strangers meet and Goodwill and have to go on

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Speaker 3: a date to get discounts at the goodwill.

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Speaker 5: Brilliant, do you need discounts at Goodwill?

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Speaker 3: It was a different time, and this was hosted by

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Speaker 3: Al Alexander. All that other stuff is not true. By

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Speaker 3: the way, this was hosted by Al Alexander. Heard real

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Speaker 3: life defendants and cases all presented semi anonymously, so you'd

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Speaker 3: hear their real voices, but you wouldn't know their names,

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Speaker 3: and they would try to keep They played a little

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Speaker 3: fast and loose with facts, and their defense for this

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Speaker 3: was saying, we can't reveal exact specifics, so that's why

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Speaker 3: we're punching stuff up and then boom, the case goes

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Speaker 3: to a panel of real judges, and the judges sit

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Speaker 3: around and go, well, you know what, here's what I

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Speaker 3: here's wreckle mill I do declare you know?

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Speaker 4: Do you think that was considered sort of like a

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Speaker 4: you're sort of a has been judge and now this

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00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,680
Speaker 4: is all Hollywood squares kind of. Yeah, you gotta wonder

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Speaker 4: if that was they didn't go over particularly well in

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Speaker 4: the legal community, if you would appear on all of

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Speaker 4: these types of.

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Speaker 3: Things definitely didn't go over well.

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Speaker 5: Well, we know it didn't go over well big picture

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Speaker 5: wise for sure.

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Speaker 4: So what happened, Like this legal advice technically ran a

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Speaker 4: foul of some actual legal precedent.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, New York County turns out has a lawyer's association.

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Speaker 3: Who do Who would have assumed? Is that the same

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Speaker 3: as the bar? Is that the bar? They mess with

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Speaker 3: the bar, The bars your qualification to practice. Sometimes you

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Speaker 3: eat the bar. Sometimes the bar is true most of

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Speaker 3: the time. Sometimes you raise the bar, and sometimes you're

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Speaker 3: just at the bar too.

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Speaker 5: Long, limboing under the bar, doing the best you can.

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Speaker 3: We've got bar jokes. How low can you go? We've

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Speaker 3: got bars about bars. We've got more bars than the

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Speaker 3: Bourbon District. This is not the kind of fun bar

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Speaker 3: that these lawyers were messing with. They shut down this

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Speaker 3: show because they said, look, if you're giving out real

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Speaker 3: legal advice for free on the radio, we don't care

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Speaker 3: for that, which makes sense because that's their job, you

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Speaker 3: know what I mean. Yeah, if you run a donut

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Speaker 3: shop and then some weirdo next door opens a a

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Speaker 3: place that just gives away free donuts, you're gonna have

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Speaker 3: some problems.

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Speaker 4: So that is his right if he wishes to do that,

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Speaker 4: as long as he's checked all the boxes and filled

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Speaker 4: out all the appropriate paperwork.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you gotta have a license. It's a spike store

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Speaker 3: kind of situation. Yeah, you can't be a rogue donut benefactor.

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Speaker 3: You will get in trouble. So now we get to

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Speaker 3: the age of TV. We'll show this up real quick.

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Speaker 3: The first show like this to make it to television

396
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Speaker 3: was Famous Jury Trials. It was on the radio in

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Speaker 3: the thirties to the late nineteen forties, and then in

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Speaker 3: nineteen forty nine it got adapted to television. They even

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Speaker 3: had a film come out in nineteen seventy one. And

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Speaker 3: these were all reenactments of past famous cases. I hope

401
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,520
Speaker 3: they went super deep into the archives. I hope they

402
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Speaker 3: had some cases from the seventeen hundred's pirate trials.

403
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Speaker 5: Yeah, it'd be fun.

404
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Speaker 3: Willful witchcraft or was it? Was it the manslaughter equivalent

405
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Speaker 3: of witchcraft? Was was this person accidentally a witch? Witch? Hobby?

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Speaker 2: My client black Beard has been accused of many things today, didn't.

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Speaker 5: They get accused of like eating babies or something that

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Speaker 5: I make that good?

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Speaker 3: Accused of a lot of things.

410
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Speaker 4: Fair enough, Isn't that the problem with a lot of

411
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Speaker 4: this Accusations in the court of public opinion are way

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Speaker 4: more interesting than the truth.

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Speaker 3: And they have a much lower burden of a court room.

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Speaker 4: The judge can do a lot of things to mitigate that,

415
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Speaker 4: and you know, instruct the jury and every everything. But

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Speaker 4: with the once this stuff starts circulating, you know, in

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Speaker 4: the real world, your base trying people in the court

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Speaker 4: of public opinion.

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Speaker 3: Back to the seventeen hundreds. To follow up on that example,

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Speaker 3: in a real court, a judge could say, I do

421
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Speaker 3: not consider that to be a witch mark. I believe

422
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,240
Speaker 3: that is a mode. But if there were a twitter

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Speaker 3: of some sort back then, probably word of mouth at

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Speaker 3: the church. In this instance, then the verdict is already

425
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Speaker 3: done for the public. That's right. No one has to

426
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Speaker 3: prove it, you know what I mean. Marm Mabel tells

427
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Speaker 3: good wife Johanneson that it's definitely witch mark because she's

428
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 3: seen a mole before, and then boom, it's the devil's mark.

429
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Speaker 2: It's witch in time, the kitty cat is definitely drinking

430
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Speaker 2: milk from that thing. Okay, so that's how how they

431
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Speaker 2: were third nipple.

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Speaker 3: What are you talking about?

433
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Speaker 2: And that's how witch marks are the thing?

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Speaker 4: Is that right?

435
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,880
Speaker 2: Yes, you're familiar.

436
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,920
Speaker 3: Of them, you're familiar. Did not suckles, you did not know?

437
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,159
Speaker 3: And that cat is deafe demon anyway. So this is

438
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 3: this is a weird history because for a lot of us,

439
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 3: the TV court show has always been there if you

440
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,880
Speaker 3: grew up in the US, just a staple of TV,

441
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:16,640
Speaker 3: just like infomercials or those talk shows that are just vapid.

442
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,680
Speaker 2: I'll say, yeah, come on, you don't like the view.

443
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 2: You gotta love a good talk show, guys.

444
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 3: I love kind of what we do. I love the

445
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 3: segues though on the talk shows, because you know, if

446
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 3: you turn on at the right time, they're like forty

447
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:37,119
Speaker 3: thousand confirmed dead in other news Dogs in office. Let's

448
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 3: go to Denver, Colorado, where mister Sparkles has been making

449
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:42,680
Speaker 3: some waves in Congress.

450
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,439
Speaker 2: How would we have ever learned to be, you know,

451
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 2: panicking about satanic ing if we didn't have those talk

452
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 2: shows you know.

453
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 4: WoT you're talking about, like the Doctor Phills of the World, Jesse, all.

454
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 2: These formats that are just like weird. It's the line

455
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,160
Speaker 2: between what is real and what is not real is blurred.

456
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 3: I think reality consensus.

457
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,439
Speaker 4: I distinctly remember being a kid and seeing some of

458
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 4: this daytime stuff and it was an episode about white supremacists,

459
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,360
Speaker 4: and it was like Phil Donahue, and they had these

460
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 4: white supremacists on, and they had like their kids on

461
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 4: and they were saying the most foul racist stuff and

462
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 4: given this platform, and of course it's presented as like,

463
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 4: here are these bad people, but let's just let them

464
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 4: say and do whatever they want. And I found it shocking,

465
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,360
Speaker 4: like as a kid, the horrible slurs, you know, that's

466
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 4: what they want to also be well aware of.

467
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 3: Folks in those talk shows like Noela's describing, I guarantee

468
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 3: you before they went on air, there was a producer

469
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 3: doing this. Yeah, okay, so just go up there, you know,

470
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 3: beat yourself.

471
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 5: But me warriors a little more racist, dial it up

472
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 5: in the ash because we want people to really understand

473
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 5: where you're coming from.

474
00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,959
Speaker 4: Oh God, let me at him and he and if

475
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 4: you get to it, throw that chair.

476
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's the it's marked with blue tape at

477
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 3: the bottom. It's the throwing chair. Yeah, that's your mark,

478
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:09,919
Speaker 3: you know. But what what was the show where there

479
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 3: were always big fights? Jerry Springer? But it was all

480
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 3: of those yeah, yeah, except for Oprah. Oprah was classic Oprah. Yeah.

481
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:25,479
Speaker 3: And as we as we think about these phenomenon, and

482
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 3: we did have an episode previously on reality TV, I

483
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 3: believe as we think about this phenomenon, we had to

484
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 3: ask is there a conspiracy afoot? How real is this

485
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,439
Speaker 3: form of reality TV? What is the truth about court shows?

486
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 3: We'll have a quick recess for a word from our sponsor,

487
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 3: and then we'll dive into uh something like real sustain

488
00:25:49,119 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 3: stained sustaint all rise be seated. Here's where it gets.

489
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 3: Can I just stay seated? Is that?

490
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 2: Okay?

491
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:03,160
Speaker 3: Okay?

492
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 2: Cool?

493
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:12,400
Speaker 3: Objection over how overstained? If you really like overstained.

494
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 2: Oxy clean, this is really great reason to have the

495
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 2: commercial breaks.

496
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 5: Is you'all cop it overstained?

497
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 3: Is your shift a robe overstained? I just wanted to say,

498
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 3: shift rope? All right, great, I think.

499
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 2: There's a great way to talk about the difference between

500
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 2: the reality of these things and the reality of these things.

501
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 3: Right.

502
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 2: So, one of the first court shows that ever came

503
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 2: about was a thing called divorce Court, right, And it's

504
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,679
Speaker 2: another one of these shows that it's very, very similar

505
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 2: to the when we just described to you before the break,

506
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 2: where it was a radio version kind of make them

507
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 2: up seas not really about a show, like a fictionalized

508
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 2: version of that or a recreated version of these court

509
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 2: rooms dramatized dramatized. The Worst Court did the same thing

510
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 2: early on. It had four separate runs, and on the

511
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,719
Speaker 2: first couple of runs it was just re enacting a

512
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 2: divorce court proceeding, which I don't I guess it's salacious

513
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 2: enough that people would want to watch that. I don't know.

514
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 3: Well, think about the demographic. You're at home, you're watching TV.

515
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 3: Maybe it makes you start thinking about your own relationships.

516
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 3: You find something some validation in there.

517
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 4: Like at least we're not this ft up, Right, you

518
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 4: know or at least like a judge agrees with me

519
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,719
Speaker 4: that a dog should not be as important in a household.

520
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 2: That is so fat because this is fifty seven to

521
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 2: sixty two, then sixty seven to sixty nine. Yeah, so

522
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 2: it is they're aiming at that time at at mothers,

523
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 2: like stay at home mothers, fantasizing about divorce and.

524
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 3: Also there there my god, yeah, maybe not fantasized, but

525
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 3: also thinking there but for the grace of God go

526
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 3: I maybe, but also the money spends to say is

527
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 3: the thing and there's and we also have to realize

528
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 3: the context. There are huge civil rights women's rights movements

529
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:10,640
Speaker 3: occurring at the same time.

530
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 2: Well, but then when they came back though, they did

531
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 2: a version. That is what we're talking about right right now.

532
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,199
Speaker 3: And let's step back because our first question was what

533
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 3: do we mean by real That's where we find the answer.

534
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 3: It's a gradient. It's not binary. These shows are not

535
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 3: all created equally in how much they do or do

536
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 3: not cleave to the reality of a courtroom. Some are

537
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,400
Speaker 3: more like a real courtroom than others. But let's start

538
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 3: at the top. Let's go piece by piece. In these systems,

539
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 3: are the judges actual judges. Judge Judy Yes was a judge,

540
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 3: is not a judge. Was a judge and then began

541
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 3: to play one on television.

542
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 2: Judge Mills Lamee, same thing.

543
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 3: Judge Joe Brown definitely a judge prior to the television career.

544
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,959
Speaker 3: So these folks were judges at one time. They were

545
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 3: judges at one point.

546
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 2: They know the law, that is what we're saying.

547
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 3: Right, they are well acquainted with different parts of the law.

548
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 2: Well, what about Steve Harvey.

549
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 3: I just I think he's just a judgmental dude.

550
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 2: Because he is one of the most famous Yes Courtroom

551
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 2: TV judges right now.

552
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 3: Because he doesn't take back something, but he is all

553
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 3: about the court of public opinion.

554
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 2: That's I know.

555
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 4: But it's funny that you should say that, because it

556
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 4: just goes to show how similar it is, like how

557
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 4: these judges are like stand ins for talk show hosts

558
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 4: in anyways they are holding holding court yard.

559
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 2: Oh snap.

560
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 3: And Steve Harvey is interesting, the guy from a family feud. Yeah,

561
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 3: he's the dude who always looks amazed by a slightly

562
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 3: risque answer. Yeah, you know, someone's like, well I would

563
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 3: say balls, and then he just loses his mind and

564
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 3: can't believe it's number one on the list of toys

565
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 3: and sports.

566
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 2: You know, Steve Hardy's hilarious to me, Guys, I don't

567
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 2: know what it is. I think maybe I have an

568
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,719
Speaker 2: SNL version of Steve Harvey playing my head. I watch him. Yeah,

569
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 2: so I don't know.

570
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 3: He also his show, Judge Steve Harvey is also technically

571
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 3: qualified as a court comedy. To your point about.

572
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 4: I'm not even aware of this his Judge show. I

573
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 4: thought you were joking. No, he has a Judge show.

574
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 4: And it's funny too because he's also a big radio

575
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 4: guy and he just has like doesn't he host a game.

576
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 3: Show, Family Feud, Family Food? Sorry, ye surprised when he's

577
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 3: ticking as the king of old media in a way?

578
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 2: Baby.

579
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 3: He also hosted the Miss Universe competition and has seven

580
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 3: Daytime Emmy Awards. Dude, I don't know if that's like

581
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 3: it's like ad de emotion JV.

582
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 2: But so, so, what we're talking about here is you've

583
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 2: got the spectrum of a television host personality that can

584
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 2: lead one of these shows as a judge. But on

585
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 2: the other end, and you've got Judge Joe Brown, and

586
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 2: that's the person I'm putting on this end because that

587
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 2: guy was a legitimate judge for a long time. He

588
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 2: was overseeing. We just we're talking about this when we

589
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 2: made the MLK tapes, we talked to Judge Brown, right,

590
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 2: but he oversaw the last appeal that James Earl Ray

591
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 2: had before he was taken off of it because he

592
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 2: was biased. But this is a legitimate judge that is

593
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 2: doing the same work, the same job as Steve Harvey.

594
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 3: Well yeah, okay, and we'll see why as well. Not

595
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 3: all of these TV judges are real judges. Some of

596
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 3: these shows are just borrowing a format loosely inspired by

597
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 3: what you would imagine a courtroom to look like. There

598
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 3: are other cases of this, you know, if you look

599
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 3: at Judge Greg Mathis, host of the show Judge Mathis.

600
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 3: He got a law degree and he worked as a

601
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 3: district judge in Michigan's thirty six District Court. He dealt

602
00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 3: primarily with misdemeanors. But these court shows who not take

603
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 3: place in real courtrooms, They don't feature real trials happening

604
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 3: in real time. They are usually real cases, but the producers,

605
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 3: to our earlier example, here's how they scout people. They

606
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 3: look through pending litigation in small claims courts in the area,

607
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 3: and then they call people and say, hey, do you

608
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 3: want to just go sort this out on television?

609
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 5: Is that like a form of arbitration or it is

610
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 5: a spoiler?

611
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 3: Yes, okay, well we're seeing on these shows it's not

612
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 3: real court cases. Instead, you're watching an arbitration process. Do

613
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 3: we want to explain what arbitration is? Oh?

614
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's it's literally a third party that

615
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 2: listens to two people's sides of a story, essentially who

616
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 2: have who.

617
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 4: Have agreed to participate in this, and to take it

618
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 4: outside of the scope of a normal courtroom proceeding.

619
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 2: If you're doing actual arbitration, right, that is theoretically the

620
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 2: way it works, that third party that is non biased.

621
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 2: But again, especially if you're dealing with a corporation arbitration process.

622
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 3: Here's where your coderation arbitration. Here's where you're gonna run

623
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 3: into arbitration. Folks, anytime you have signed terms and conditions

624
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 3: for literally any elect service in media or with electronic product,

625
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 3: pre agree you have agreed to arbitration. That's why it's

626
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 3: usually towards the second half of the contract because they

627
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 3: know ninety five percent of people are not going to

628
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 3: read it. You should read it, as a matter of fact.

629
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 3: Start reading at the bottom and work your way up.

630
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 4: That came up recently with that case of the woman

631
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 4: being a food poisoned by Disney Food and Disney Springs

632
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,959
Speaker 4: associated and because the husband had signed up for like

633
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 4: a free trial of Disney, plus he had technically agreed

634
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 4: to arbitration, which is not in his favor because this

635
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 4: is a case that he could potentially have won big on,

636
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 4: but now he's been demoted to arbitration, which puts the

637
00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 4: power really in the hands of the corporation.

638
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 2: Let's compare it to if it was in a court

639
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 2: of law. Right, in the court of law, there's the

640
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 2: same thing. Two arguments, right from a team of lawyers

641
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 2: for basically someone who's defending someone who is accusing or

642
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 2: the plaintive, and the defendant, they make their case, the

643
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,720
Speaker 2: jury in that case decides what's up, or the judge,

644
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 2: depending on trial, and then that judge or jury decides,

645
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 2: here's what's going to happen who, Here's who's going to

646
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 2: pay money, Here's who's gonna face consequences. In arbitration, you

647
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,879
Speaker 2: hear this case and everything, and that one person who

648
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,479
Speaker 2: is your arbiter binding gets to the decide you.

649
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 3: Can do it. There may be more than one arbiter, true,

650
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 3: but this is alternative dispute resolution, meaning that you can say,

651
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 3: you know, if you two guys are fighting, you could

652
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 3: come to me and say like, hey, we don't want

653
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:53,879
Speaker 3: this to go to court. We just hear it out,

654
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 3: we'll record it. We agree in writing that that decision

655
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 3: to that point we'll be binding, which means that even

656
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 3: though you're not in court with this mediation, the arbiter's

657
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,240
Speaker 3: decision is almost always final. It's very rare for court

658
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,839
Speaker 3: to go back and step on the toes. So it's

659
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 3: a It's like how instead of going straight from kindergarten

660
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 3: to first grade, your case goes from kindergarten to pre first.

661
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 2: Yes and yes, And one of the most important parts

662
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 2: of this is exactly what you said, Ben. You're not

663
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 2: going by the laws necessarily. Sometimes you are, but especially

664
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 2: in certain cases, you are deciding what the rules in

665
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 2: consequences can even be. Before you begin the discussion.

666
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 3: And scope out. You make the field of play and

667
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:43,359
Speaker 3: I contact listen close fellow conspiracy realist, not accusing anyone specifically,

668
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 3: but you cannot do arbitration for a lot of criminal cases. Okay,

669
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,839
Speaker 3: so if there's a grand theft auto for instance, if

670
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 3: there's a purposeful arson, or you have god forbid arguably

671
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 3: committed homicide, can't go to the cops and say, well,

672
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 3: what if we just sort of get an arbiter, you

673
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 3: know what I mean, like get get someone we all trust.

674
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 3: Like what if we ask Bill Nye you know.

675
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 5: What the science got?

676
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 3: Yeah? Or what if we get jaw ruled because Jaw will.

677
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 4: Figure science gott yes or Shaggy too dope, the science yes.

678
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 3: And so this is uh, you know, it's.

679
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 5: About magnets, that's for sure.

680
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 2: M hm.

681
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 3: He is wilfully agreed on all things magnetic. So the

682
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 3: power the judges have in these TV shows is just

683
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 3: granted by the contract. Uh. And it's the contract that

684
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,760
Speaker 3: you sign when you agree to appear. Everybody is there voluntarily,

685
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 3: even the devil. The fine print and also love fine print.

686
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 3: I think they should make the fine print and just

687
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 3: the sexier fond she's just called words. They should make

688
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 3: it sexy.

689
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 4: Okay, how about comic sans comic sands the sexiest thoughts.

690
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 3: It's no wing dings. You know. So there's here's the issue.

691
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 3: If we have an aggrieved party and a plaintiff, and

692
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:15,879
Speaker 3: the judge judge finds in favor of the of the defendant,

693
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:20,479
Speaker 3: both parties get an appearance fee. Yeah, so even if

694
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 3: you lose your case, you still get paid for your time.

695
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 3: And yes, if you're wondering, it is more than the

696
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 3: fee that people in an actual jury get.

697
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 4: Bro I found my jury duty check. It was so

698
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 4: embarrassing and hilarious that I never even cashed it. And

699
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 4: I looked at it and I was like, I should

700
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:37,959
Speaker 4: cash this, But now it's ninety days.

701
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 3: It was void.

702
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 5: It was fourteen dollars fourteen fourteen US.

703
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 3: Dollars for coffee. It was a coffee.

704
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 4: It was a full day of the selection process and

705
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 4: then a full day of the trial.

706
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 3: Seven bucks a day. Unreal coffee's on you.

707
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:54,320
Speaker 2: That's insanity.

708
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 3: They do charge you for coffee. It's a machine. Yeah no,

709
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 3: I mean you you buy the next round of coffee. Fourteen.

710
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 3: I think we could recuit. There weren't even donuts, there

711
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:04,760
Speaker 3: was no spread.

712
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 2: It's just such an important point, guys, what Ben's saying here,

713
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 2: that is how you get somebody to come on a

714
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,359
Speaker 2: court television show who appears to be the bad guy,

715
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,839
Speaker 2: at least according to the story, right, all right, right,

716
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,280
Speaker 2: that's the way you get on there, because I always

717
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 2: wondered why on earth would this cheating husband or whatever

718
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 2: it is like go on television.

719
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 4: And that's why it's also kind of considered poor form

720
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 4: in journalism to pay your subjects.

721
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 3: There you go technically illegal. Right, so depending on well, okay,

722
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 3: we hear you, FCC's we got it, we got it.

723
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 2: But not only would they not have to pay whatever

724
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 2: the small claims.

725
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 3: Is, Yes, we've got that later too, Yes, it just.

726
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 2: You can you can definitely see while that that is

727
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 2: better than having to pay somebody if it actually went

728
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 2: to court.

729
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of advantages. The

730
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 3: consumerists had a great snarky line about this. They said,

731
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 3: while the cases and people may be real, the court

732
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 3: could be held on the bridge of the Starship Enterprise

733
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:04,800
Speaker 3: and would still have the same effect.

734
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 4: I mean, it might as well be it's on a set.

735
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 4: The Starship Enterprise set may well be next door.

736
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 3: And yeah, and that's a good point. The quote concludes,

737
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 3: it's all just part of the collective hallucination. We call television.

738
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 3: I thought that was a great It's very cool.

739
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 4: I recently went to my very first taping of a

740
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 4: late show and you know, there's a tonight show is

741
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 4: Jimmy Fallen And I'd always pictured what the studio was like,

742
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 4: and it is tiny. They make it look so big,

743
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 4: but the way the camera sweeps throughout it and I

744
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 4: guess the lens maybe the wide angle lens or whatever,

745
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 4: and it is a tiny audience.

746
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:38,919
Speaker 3: It's a never show.

747
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 4: Usually it's like maybe if they do show it, they

748
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 4: show it in close up, which makes you think that

749
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 4: it just goes on forever.

750
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 5: But it's like a black box theater and it is

751
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 5: that you're.

752
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 3: In a shoe box.

753
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 4: It's crazy how small is The band is on one wall,

754
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 4: the band that plays as a guest is on the

755
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 4: far wall, and then Fallin on the desk is on

756
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 4: the left wall, and then the audience is on the

757
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:57,919
Speaker 4: back wall, and it is the illusion is real.

758
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 3: It was very trippy being in there. Like, have you

759
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 3: guys ever been to the SNL studios? Heck now also

760
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 3: very small?

761
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 4: Uh, very I'm not saying I would never. I would

762
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 4: love to just have not know that's cool.

763
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 3: And then if you go. Yeah, a lot of the

764
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 3: late shows have a similar format on stage as they

765
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 3: do in their presentation, which is all to your point

766
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 3: to build that illusion. And speaking of illusion, we're talking

767
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 3: about this off air, some of the defendants are actors, like, well, yeah,

768
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 3: the case might be real, but you know, the guy

769
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 3: who is portraying the defendant also has a real on

770
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,439
Speaker 3: IMDb where he lists a lot of his work.

771
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 4: Well, and there's no real jury, but there are there

772
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,320
Speaker 4: is a studio audience for and they sit in a

773
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,439
Speaker 4: jury box, right, It's it's it's an.

774
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 2: Illusion, yeah, but they don't. Well, it depends on the

775
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 2: format of the show. Some of the formats have interaction

776
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 2: like with that audience, but usually it's it is an

777
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 2: illusion that they are just an audience the way it

778
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 2: would be in a courtroom. But they don't say anything.

779
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 2: They just they're quiet. The only people who speak are

780
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 2: the plaintiff, the defendant or the.

781
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 3: And the bailiff who's like, you got that right, he's

782
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 3: the shifty, sassy one exactly.

783
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,760
Speaker 4: But isn't that funny though that because as time has progressed,

784
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 4: and you know, this being a tried and true format,

785
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 4: you certainly have some like Steve Harvey that lean more

786
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:17,359
Speaker 4: into the absurdity of it and can be a little

787
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 4: more goofy.

788
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 3: With Well, all the judges quote unquote judges, whatever their providence,

789
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 3: they have to have a personality, right, they have a

790
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 3: list of attributes that attract people to the show again

791
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 3: and again. You know, a no nonsense judge versus a

792
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 3: judge who kind of sees the you know, the lighter

793
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 3: side of things, right, you know, versus a judge who's like,

794
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 3: my main thing is I dig parakeets. Is why this

795
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 3: case is interesting.

796
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 5: The parakeet judge. He always has one on his shoulder.

797
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 3: Birth also.

798
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, So my understanding just to what we're talking about

799
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 2: here is usually they're not actors putting on a show

800
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 2: like fake cases. They're real cases. It's just they are

801
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 2: presented as real cases to the so then the producers

802
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 2: decide which ones. So the way you would fake get

803
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 2: on one of these court TV shows, in my understanding

804
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 2: is you would have a small claims thing, or you

805
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 2: would create a small claims thing that's wild, and then

806
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 2: a producer would somehow come to it. I it can

807
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 2: work that way, or I guess you would go to

808
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 2: you'd send an email to the producers and say, guys,

809
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 2: I've got a crazy story for you, and the fake

810
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 2: get on.

811
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 3: But it's also similar to so the producers play a

812
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 3: huge role, and that's a great point. Sometimes it works

813
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 3: the way you're describing that would actually be one of

814
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 3: the ethical ways from the producer's end. Sometimes the producers

815
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 3: will find an old court transcript that they really like

816
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 3: and they'll have a recreation of that. Sometimes these are

817
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 3: made up out of a whole cloth, or kind of

818
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 3: like a plot for Law and Order. They're inspired by

819
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 3: true events. Other times there will be defendants and the

820
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 3: actually grieved parties on camera, but it's an open secret. Again.

821
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:03,320
Speaker 3: Prior to going on camera, the show's producers will pop

822
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 3: by and just say, hey, let's judge this up a little,

823
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 3: even if that means playing a little fast and loose

824
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 3: with the facts. I don't know, what do you guys think,

825
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 3: another recess for an ad brink. I don't see why not.

826
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 3: I was waiting for an overruled or sustained sustained thank you,

827
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 3: and we've returned, all right. There are lots of producers

828
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:31,800
Speaker 3: who will speak about this. One that I think stood

829
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 3: out to us is a guy named Dave d. Venerio,

830
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 3: producer of Black Chip Studios out in San Diego, he

831
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 3: had he had a pretty good first hand account of this.

832
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, he said, Assigning a level of reality to reality

833
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 4: court shows is difficult because, like with most reality TV,

834
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 4: these shows fall more in the area of contrived, that cold,

835
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 4: you know, that contrived area, then exactly genuine or fabricate him.

836
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,879
Speaker 4: That's interesting, yeah, because you contrived does kind of live

837
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 4: between those two mm hmm.

838
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,240
Speaker 3: Yeah. And he said, you know, some shows even have scripts,

839
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:09,839
Speaker 3: because you know they're working off transcripts. Some are more improved. Right.

840
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,320
Speaker 3: Regardless of how these things lean into or out of reality,

841
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 3: they all have one goal to make as much spectacle

842
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 3: as possible, to play up the drama. If you've ever

843
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:24,760
Speaker 3: watched a real court proceeding, people are often very formal,

844
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 3: they're pretty dry. They try to be fact based, and

845
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 3: if you watch these shows, then people sometimes become hyper

846
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 3: exaggerated versions of themselves. I will not have a circus

847
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 3: in my court room, you know. Yeah, And they're saying

848
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 3: that while the defendant and the plaintiff are dressed as

849
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:48,760
Speaker 3: literal clowns, because it clown claim, is that a thing clown?

850
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 3: Court there's clown college. Why shouldn't there be clown court.

851
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 3: That's true, clown rights, you know what I mean. Now

852
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 3: clown rights. Now, where about the issues? So Divernio has

853
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 3: this idea that may be reassuring, where he says, you know,

854
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 3: most of these cases, most of these people are real.

855
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 3: But to your point, Matt, occasionally people will fabricate a

856
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 3: case to get on a show. They'll conspire right, and

857
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:16,799
Speaker 3: the producer may not know that these aggrieved parties are

858
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 3: actually buddies coming up in the comedy scene and they

859
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 3: because it's easy to file small claim, anyone can. But

860
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 3: do we have examples of this being discovered?

861
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,800
Speaker 2: Not really there at least I couldn't find anything concrete

862
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 2: where it's like this is definitely what happened, because is embarrassing,

863
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 2: especially for the production if it gets through. But it

864
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 2: used to happen all the time on talk shows where

865
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:40,359
Speaker 2: you know actors who are trying to make it out

866
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 2: in Hollywood and they come up with a way to

867
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 2: get on television. Again, I mean, I use Ricky Lake

868
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 2: as an example, but it's not really necessarily that it

869
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,759
Speaker 2: would be one of the more salacious ones where it's

870
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:55,240
Speaker 2: like this kid is or is not my child or whatever. Yeah,

871
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 2: but it's just actors and they're just having fun and

872
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,879
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter necessarily even to the producers if it's

873
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 2: real or not, because it makes for good TV.

874
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 3: You just don't want that the girlfriend mistress, baby mama fights.

875
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, sorry, folks, sometimes they know each other.

876
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 4: I think that's interesting because what we're pointing out here

877
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 4: is that it does seem that there is some need

878
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 4: to maintain some semblance of credibility even in the schlockiest

879
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 4: of these court type shows. Sure, if that is at

880
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:26,720
Speaker 4: the heart of the thing, the moment that is broken,

881
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 4: and we cannot believe the true crime aspect of these things,

882
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 4: it loses us.

883
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

884
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 2: Well, think about it. If if the illusion that there

885
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 2: are not direct consequences to one or the other of

886
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 2: the people who are there on the stage, course, yeah,

887
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 2: then nobody gives a crap. So you have to truly

888
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 2: believe that illusion. That illusion has to exist, or else

889
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:51,800
Speaker 2: the show's canceled.

890
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 3: And you can skirt the line there ethically and legally

891
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 3: by not outright stating this is or is not true.

892
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:03,240
Speaker 3: Right by not outright stating this is a real court case.

893
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 3: All you have to do is imply it through appearance,

894
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 3: through tropes, through format, and then from far enough away

895
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 3: you know this will seem true to a lot of people,

896
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 3: even though it is ersatz, which is a word for

897
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,839
Speaker 3: appearing true without being true. And with that we have

898
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:25,320
Speaker 3: to ask, Okay, what happens when somebody is found innocent

899
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 3: or guilty? Like we said earlier, if you're the defendant,

900
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,799
Speaker 3: you're found innocent, you and the other party still get

901
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 3: an appearance fee.

902
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 4: Is there a problem? I mean, it just depends, you know.

903
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 4: I mean, I think this kind of reality television in

904
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 4: general is sort of to blame for some cultural erosion

905
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 4: of like morals, you know. But that's me like being

906
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 4: soapboxy about it. To me, the stakes are pretty low

907
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 4: and everybody kind of knows what they're signing up for

908
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,959
Speaker 4: on both sides, the audience side and the participants side.

909
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:59,720
Speaker 4: So is it damaging to what democracy to like the law?

910
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 3: I don't think so. I think it's just frivolous. Well,

911
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 3: here's one thing they don't tell you on the show

912
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,319
Speaker 3: as a member of the public. To Matt, I think

913
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 3: there's your point there about the actual penalties. What are

914
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 3: our stakes? What happens when a penalty is leveled. They say, yes,

915
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 3: you're the evil clown in this situation. You stole the

916
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 3: Seltzer water and the squeaky shoes.

917
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:24,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, you left that house a little bit messy when

918
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 2: you sold it to this other person and they won

919
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 2: one hundred and seventy five dollars.

920
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 3: Here's the kicker. The production pays for fines and penalties

921
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 3: leveled as part of the arbitration agreement. So we can

922
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 3: understand the perspective of a defendant. If you have a

923
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 3: small claim, a real one, and you feel like your

924
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 3: odds of winning aren't great, why wouldn't you I mean

925
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 3: it's a cost benefit. Are you okay being a little

926
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:52,720
Speaker 3: embarrassed to save some money.

927
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 5: I don't think anybody in Hollywood was ever.

928
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 4: I'm too afraid of being a little embarrassed because you

929
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 4: got to have humility and shame to be embarrassed.

930
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 3: I know it's a good question, but you could see

931
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 3: right because we're saying you could you could still be

932
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,399
Speaker 3: found guilty, and you thought you would be or found

933
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 3: at fault, and now you can get away without having

934
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:18,720
Speaker 3: to actually pay the financial consequence.

935
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:22,279
Speaker 2: Or not just financial consequence. It's like there are no consequences. Now,

936
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 2: some people saw you, you know. I however, many hundred

937
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:29,399
Speaker 2: or thousands of people saw you on TV doing this thing.

938
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 2: But other than that, you're good. It's like it never.

939
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 3: Happened, except that they might syndicate this show, which means

940
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 3: that every night at seven pm, you know, every other month,

941
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 3: it's back up there.

942
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 4: But to your previous point, Ben too mean or both

943
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 4: of you guys are on the stakes. Like, we're not

944
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 4: dealing with sexual assault cases. We're not dealing with actual

945
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 4: serious damages of psychological nature or of like physical bodily harm.

946
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 4: Maybe psychological maybe, But the stakes to me on any

947
00:49:57,960 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 4: of these that I've ever seen are always so low.

948
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 4: Oh and kind of, like I said, frivolous that I

949
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:05,800
Speaker 4: just don't think it's that big a deal. And I

950
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 4: think everybody kind of knows what they're getting in on,

951
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 4: you know, whether you're participating, whether you're producing it, or

952
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 4: whether you're at home consuming it.

953
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, And to your point there from earlier, I think

954
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 3: a lot of people watching know some degree of reality

955
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:25,360
Speaker 3: is compromised in these shows. The real reality is compromised, agreed,

956
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 3: But there's still a lot of misconceptions. That's why people

957
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 3: might have a problem with this. Plenty of legal boffins,

958
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:37,240
Speaker 3: TV critics and consumer advocates don't love TV court shows,

959
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 3: and their biggest concern is that this might mess up

960
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 3: attitudes and preconceptions about actual facts court shout out Lower

961
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 3: and Vogel bam the idea that you know, God, I

962
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 3: know legal professionals who've run into this. You're talking to

963
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 3: a witness, a defendant, someone else affiliated with the case

964
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 3: who's not a legal professional, and they say, wait, I

965
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 3: know you're the judge or you're a big lawyer or whatever.

966
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 3: But I've seen a lot of Judge Judy, and I've

967
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 3: watched a lot of Law and Order SVU, so let

968
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 3: me tell you how this goes on TV.

969
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:16,879
Speaker 4: It's true, But again, I think like everyone knows that

970
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 4: there is a certain suspension of disbelief where it's like,

971
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:22,360
Speaker 4: I don't really apply.

972
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:24,799
Speaker 3: But maybe that's just me. You're the people that I know.

973
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:26,479
Speaker 4: I mean, there are people that see this and really

974
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:28,839
Speaker 4: think that's how things go down. So maybe I'm taking

975
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 4: that point for granted a little bit.

976
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 3: Well, isn't it one of the common questions you see

977
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 3: on some jury panels or auditions where they say, do

978
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 3: you watch you know, law and order or what do

979
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 3: they say? Do you watch crime shows?

980
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:43,799
Speaker 5: Nowadays they've probably just abbreviated to true crime are you?

981
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 3: You know what I mean? Like, yeah, what do you

982
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,879
Speaker 3: like true crime podcast? And that's a question that comes

983
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 3: up because they're trying to see if you have a

984
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 3: stilted view of what a court should look like. Since

985
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 3: it's arbitration, it doesn't have to occur in a court room.

986
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 3: You could put it anyway. You could even put it

987
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:04,839
Speaker 3: on social media. What about TikTok court? I mean, it's

988
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,319
Speaker 3: probably common guys. You know, I don't see why not

989
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 3: a lot.

990
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 2: Of people on TikTok are getting in trouble for making

991
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 2: up crazy stuff and not being able to back get

992
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,880
Speaker 2: up and then not stopping talking about the crazy stuff.

993
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:20,720
Speaker 4: But it's also there's so much ability to shield yourself

994
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 4: by saying it's satire, you know what I mean? But

995
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 4: there's it's really riding the line these days. You'll see

996
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 4: someone being like, I this thing happened to me, I

997
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 4: did this thing, I experienced this thing and it's made up.

998
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 4: But they're doing with such a straight face, and it

999
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 4: it feels.

1000
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 3: Like it's a real account.

1001
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 4: But it's absolutely satire, and it's up to you to

1002
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 4: figure out what that is because there's no disclaimer.

1003
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 3: Yeah. And also I'm just asking questions, you know what

1004
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:47,400
Speaker 3: I mean, Like, why has what what's a weird celebrity.

1005
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 5: Chapel Roone.

1006
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 3: Why has chapel Roone never explicitly denied the allegations that

1007
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:58,799
Speaker 3: she runs an a legal goat herding operation across the

1008
00:52:58,800 --> 00:52:59,720
Speaker 3: Columbian border.

1009
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:02,919
Speaker 5: It's a good question, Ben, I've been wondering asking question.

1010
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 3: I'm wondering.

1011
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 4: Now you got me think, Ben, I've got to know,

1012
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:06,439
Speaker 4: I've got to find out.

1013
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 3: I'm going to get to the bottom of this. Iron

1014
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 3: must be stopped.

1015
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:11,320
Speaker 2: I really thought she was talking about the Pink Pony

1016
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 2: Club here in Atlanta.

1017
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 4: I think there's a just sort of considered almost a

1018
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 4: it's like such an old school institution of strip clubs.

1019
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 5: Then it's just like a stand in like Coke happened.

1020
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 4: I was just she's got a really popular song called

1021
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 4: Pink Pony Club, and there it's about a you know,

1022
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 4: a dancer at an adult institution, and there is the

1023
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:34,400
Speaker 4: famous Pink Pony in Atlanta. But chapel Roone is referring

1024
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:36,520
Speaker 4: to a place that may or may not exist in

1025
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 4: West Hollywood.

1026
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:41,799
Speaker 2: Exactly, at least according to the lyrics. Okay, if you're

1027
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 2: gonna believe the lyrics, well, let's.

1028
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:45,720
Speaker 3: Talk about how lyrics have been put on trial.

1029
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 4: I mean, this is out of the scope of this conversation,

1030
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 4: but it's fascinating.

1031
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:52,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, okay, Matt, give us the court sound cute please, sir.

1032
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 2: Dun dunn. Oh wait, that's a different one.

1033
00:53:56,800 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 3: This is perfect. You guys are doing it great. All right.

1034
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 3: Here we are in podcast court, which will be a

1035
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 3: thing later. Shout out to our pal, judge John Hayes.

1036
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 5: He's my favorite celebrity judge.

1037
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 3: He's pretty great. But we are we are also friends

1038
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 3: with him when we're in this area. We're increasingly empowering

1039
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 3: the court of public opinion, right getting ratioed on Twitter,

1040
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:26,359
Speaker 3: as he said, Matt, people being surprised they encounter real

1041
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:31,360
Speaker 3: world consequences for performative things on TikTok. I don't know.

1042
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:34,799
Speaker 3: I guess the verdict is court shows are entertaining and

1043
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 3: they help and that they do conduct real arbitration, but

1044
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 3: we can't call them real if we mean their real courtrooms.

1045
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 3: Is that fair?

1046
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:46,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that is the question, though, like where

1047
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 4: when you have an OJ Simpson trial, or you have

1048
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 4: like a you know, Bill Clinton.

1049
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:51,360
Speaker 3: Trial or.

1050
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 4: Brother's trial, it is it is presented in an entertaining

1051
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:02,280
Speaker 4: way by the news media, but it is a news event,

1052
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 4: whereas these are somewhere in between an entertainment you know,

1053
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 4: product and a little taste of real consequences in real

1054
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 4: legal stakes.

1055
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, think about how obsessed we are with this stuff.

1056
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 2: Remember we uh, oh gosh, what was the movie not

1057
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 2: twelve Angry Men? That was like nineteen fifties when that

1058
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 2: was written, Well, monkeys, it was a few good men. Yes,

1059
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:29,799
Speaker 2: of course we talked about how compelled America was with

1060
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:33,239
Speaker 2: that film, and it is most of it is not

1061
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 2: most of it. A lot of the most heightened moments

1062
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:37,760
Speaker 2: are just inside a courtroom.

1063
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 3: You can't handle the truth.

1064
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 2: But it's just people talking to each other, right.

1065
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, with the real type back and forth camera angle.

1066
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 2: The same with the radio place back in the day.

1067
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 2: It's just really about the words and the way people

1068
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:51,680
Speaker 2: are saying things to each other. And that's where the

1069
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:53,279
Speaker 2: drama actually is.

1070
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:56,400
Speaker 4: And sometimes the drama comes in all how you frame it,

1071
00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 4: you know what I mean, and what you pull from

1072
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 4: it because sitting in at court eat like that the

1073
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 4: whole time.

1074
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:06,879
Speaker 3: It's pretty dry, are formal because they've got a lot

1075
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 3: on the line. Also reminds me of a well, what

1076
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 3: was that movie with al Pacino as a blind incentive

1077
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 3: woman who is also who was also somehow incent He

1078
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:20,279
Speaker 3: stands up in a hearing. Yeah, because he talks about

1079
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 3: a central one. He stands up in a hearing and

1080
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 3: has pretty salacious name. If you think yeah, yeah, yeah,

1081
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 3: oh yeah, he talks about it. He stand anyway. Uh.

1082
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:30,359
Speaker 3: The point is he stands up in a hearing and

1083
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:35,600
Speaker 3: he delivers this excoriating uh monologue and statement. And that's

1084
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 3: the kind of stuff that stays with people, Just like

1085
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 3: in a Few Good Men. Jack Nicholson's character is a

1086
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 3: very brief part but extremely pivotal juncture of the story.

1087
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,759
Speaker 4: Opening and closing arguments are always the big drama, well

1088
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 4: not the only, but like the opportunities for the litigator

1089
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 4: to hold court, to actually have the all eyes on me.

1090
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:58,840
Speaker 4: I'm setting it up, I'm laying out the stakes.

1091
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:01,080
Speaker 3: Think of Atticus fans to kill a mockingbird.

1092
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 2: Yes, sorry, it's the phrase stand and deliver. Just reminding

1093
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 2: me of that movie. Stand and deliver about the Menendez brothers.

1094
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:11,240
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, And with this we see that pop

1095
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:15,319
Speaker 3: culture has already kind of blurred the line. I won't

1096
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:18,200
Speaker 3: even say kind of pop culture has blurred the line

1097
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 3: between what we think is real and what we think

1098
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:26,160
Speaker 3: is entertainment. So maybe our verdict is this h If

1099
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:30,040
Speaker 3: you take away anything from this episode, remember that anything

1100
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 3: you learn from watching Court TV should not be confused

1101
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 3: with something that might help you in an actual courtroom,

1102
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:38,960
Speaker 3: unless you just want the judge to be irritated at you.

1103
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 3: I feel like your honor. Do you know, Judge Joe Brown,

1104
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 3: their eyes will roll so hard, or or maybe they'll

1105
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 3: do that face you just did, Matt, what do you

1106
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:51,919
Speaker 3: know about Joe?

1107
00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:55,560
Speaker 2: He's such a weird case study because because he's a

1108
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:59,240
Speaker 2: he's a legit judge, you like it, is so good

1109
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 2: at doing that job. Yes, and then he's also only

1110
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 2: really known for this stuff. And he got that job

1111
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 2: as Judge Joe Brown right after the whole involvement with

1112
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 2: James Earl Ray, which made me think conspiratorially, of course,

1113
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 2: maybe he was given this as like, don't make a

1114
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:22,960
Speaker 2: stink about this whole thing. Okay, So here's some a

1115
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 2: lot of money and be a judge.

1116
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:26,000
Speaker 3: Now here's your door prize.

1117
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 2: I don't mean that. Sorry, that's an accuistion. It's not

1118
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 2: an accusation, it's an observation. Thinking about it.

1119
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:33,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, thought experiment.

1120
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 2: There we go.

1121
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:35,920
Speaker 4: But also you got to think too, that's a little

1122
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 4: bit of a happier life for a guy like that,

1123
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 4: oh for sure, in terms of the stakes being so

1124
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 4: comparatively lower.

1125
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1126
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:47,120
Speaker 2: Just you know, as long as we pretend like some

1127
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:50,040
Speaker 2: elements of the government didn't want MLK to to be dead,

1128
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:50,920
Speaker 2: it's fine.

1129
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:54,160
Speaker 3: The devil you say. Do check out our episodes on

1130
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 3: co Hotel pro. Do check out the MLK tapes which

1131
00:58:57,640 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 3: Matt let the charge on chick out our previous episodes

1132
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 3: on not just reality TV but the nature of reality.

1133
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 3: For now, our verdict is court shows are entertaining, but

1134
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 3: they are not real. Court case dismissed, sustain. Yes, you

1135
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 3: can also find us. I don't think I still don't

1136
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 3: understand the terms. Sorry, we want to hear your thoughts, folks.

1137
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 3: You can find us all kinds of places. Unlike that

1138
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 3: radio show from years past, you can actually contact us.

1139
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 3: We can find us on email. We got a phone number.

1140
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 3: We're all over the place online it's right.

1141
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 4: You can shout into your podcast consuming device of choice,

1142
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:34,920
Speaker 4: or you can find us all over the internet. As

1143
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 4: Ben said at the Hamil Conspiracy Stuff where we exist

1144
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:39,680
Speaker 4: on Facebook with our Facebook group here's where it gets crazy.

1145
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 4: On x FKA, Twitter and on YouTube where we have

1146
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 4: video content galore for your enjoyment.

1147
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:47,920
Speaker 5: On Instagram and TikTok. However, we are conspiracy stuff.

1148
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 2: Show Yes, if you have a case you want to

1149
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:53,960
Speaker 2: have arbitrated, reach out to Judge John Hodgman. We're pretty

1150
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 2: sure he still does that. Yes, and they're fun, so

1151
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:58,680
Speaker 2: do that. If you want to call us and tell

1152
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:02,360
Speaker 2: us about anything you w want adjudicated, call our number.

1153
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 2: It is one eight three three S C D W

1154
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:10,400
Speaker 2: I T k K feels.

1155
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:17,840
Speaker 4: Good, say KKK, I'm not picking.

1156
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:21,439
Speaker 2: That's our phone number. When you call, and give yourself

1157
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:22,960
Speaker 2: a cool nickname and let us know if we can

1158
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 2: use your name and message on the air. It's a

1159
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:27,120
Speaker 2: three minute voicemail. If you've got more that can fit

1160
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 2: in that, why not instead send us a good old

1161
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 2: fashioned email.

1162
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence

1163
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 3: we receive. Be well aware, yet unafraid the shadow knows,

1164
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:39,560
Speaker 3: and sometimes the shadow writes back, join us out here

1165
01:00:39,560 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 3: in the dark conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1166
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:03,760
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want you to Know is a production

1167
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:08,400
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1168
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:11,360
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.