WEBVTT - Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - October 12th, 2019 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:06.440 This is Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. I'm Jason 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:08.799 Kelly and I'm Carol Master. Welcome to the Bloomberg Business 0:00:08.840 --> 0:00:12.559 Week Weekend Podcast. Another busy week here at Bloomberg, and 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:14.600 over the next couple of hours will bring you some 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:16.639 of the news of the week and a lot that's 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:19.920 in the magazine. It's such an interesting issue of the magazine, Carol, 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:22.640 because I feel like there's an underlying theme, and it's 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:26.320 all about the Silicon Valley notion of move fast and 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:30.600 break stuff, the disruptors, and the implications of taking that 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:33.519 as your business model. It shows up in Tesla, it 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:38.240 shows up in Jewel and what we're seeing is doesn't 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:40.559 always work so great, right some of the consequences as 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:42.800 a result of it. And I love the Tesla story 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:45.720 in particular, it's the cover story, but it really gets 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:48.600 into ethical questions that as we move into this self 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:53.000 driving universe, how comfortable are we that we want this? 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:56.400 But probably to get to it to full self driving, 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:58.440 we're gonna lose some lives along the way. So what's 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:02.560 the public's comfort hall with that? And speaking of Silicon value, 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:06.280 we've got a deep dive into Oracle it's adventures, shall 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:10.960 we say, in the cloud. And also economics taking the 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:15.720 and also economics taking center stage again. The risk of 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:18.360 a global recession? What is it? And what are the 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:20.880 risk of the recession closer to home? Well and right? 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:24.480 And the US And and that's right, Jason, because the 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:26.800 next US recession, it's probably not going to be homegrown. 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:29.200 It's going to be the result of some geopolitical factors, 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:31.760 some big macro story that's out there around the globe. 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:33.840 So what will it be like and what can the 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:37.080 FED do to prevent it? First up, Carol. This week, 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:40.559 Turkey launched air strikes, fired artillery, and began a ground 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:45.639 offensive against Kurdish fighters in northern Syria. This came after 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:48.520 President Trump pulled US troops out of the area, and 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:50.520 that paid the way for an assault on forces that 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:54.639 have long been allied with the United States. Republican Senator 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:58.280 Lindsay Graham says the move will have dire consequences. The 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:02.320 Kurds are the owned forces that destroyed the caliphate with 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:06.200 American air power. We've abandoned them. That breaks my heart. 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:08.800 I hope the President will change his mind and readjust 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:12.040 his policy before it's too late. Another busy news cycle 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:15.800 this week, Jason, no doubt about it, and another geopolitical concern, 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:18.320 and this one had to do with US policy in Syria. 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:21.360 I feel like this took a lot of folks in Washington, 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:23.760 around the country, around the world by surprise. Well, and 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:26.919 that global element is especially important because it affects other 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:31.440 countries in the US relationship with other countries, none more 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:35.520 so in many ways than Russia. Henry Meyer joins us 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:40.840 from our Moscow bureau with some really good context his story. 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:43.560 His reporting on the terminal this week has been key 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:46.640 to understanding everything that's going on here. So there in 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:51.480 your backyard, Henry, help us understand Russia's place in all 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:57.000 of this well. Russia has been looking to restore the 0:02:57.040 --> 0:02:59.840 influence at Hann in the Middle East, which was very 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:05.679 strong during the Soviet era that changed dramatically after the 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:11.200 collapse of the Soviet Union and really Putin. President Putin 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:17.320 has had immense success in this field. The intervention that 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:21.280 Russia did in Syria starting a few years ago, in 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:25.800 which they succeeded in reversing the outcome of the Civil War. 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:30.080 President Assett was on the verge of being overthrown and 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:35.000 he's now firmly empowered. This has been a great success. 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:40.280 But what is happening now is that the US withdrawal 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:46.680 from Syria is providing Russia and opportunity to really cement 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:50.400 that situation in Syria. But it's not just about Syria. 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:52.240 I think you're right that Russia has since filled the 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:56.240 vacuum from Syria to Libya, even luring Turkey into buying 0:03:56.520 --> 0:03:59.040 um some military equipment. I mean, it's it's a much 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:04.000 broader impact here potentially, right for Russia. That's right. I mean, Syria, 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:06.600 if you like, has been Russia's calling card in the 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:10.320 Middle East. It's the reason why it's taken seriously now. 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:14.200 But it's using that to expand its role in in 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:20.280 many other countries. In Libya, there are increasing reports that 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:26.880 Russia is backing the strongman in the East, General Halftar, 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:33.440 and it is developing relationships with traditional US allies like 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:38.279 Saudi Arabia. President Putin is due to visit Saudi Arabia shortly. 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:43.120 You mentioned Turkey. That's very important. The decision by Turkey 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:46.920 to defy US pressure and to go ahead with buying 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:51.680 the S four hundred missile defense system. It could be 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:55.520 a turning point actually for that country's relationship with the 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:58.799 West and with Russia. And so what is the most 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:04.279 likely next move for Russia. You talked about President Putin 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:08.400 visiting Saudi Arabia. Obviously that neighborhood as it were, has 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:13.320 become very complicated. As you described, what might Russia and 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:17.320 Moscow do next? Well, their first priority is to try 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:20.719 and use the current situation to its advantage in Syria, 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:27.560 So it's trying to engineer a solution involving President Assad, 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:33.400 the Koords and Turkey which would allow Assad to essentially 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:37.680 reclaim control of most of the of the Kurdish area um. 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:41.960 And then secondly, it's clearly going to be looking for 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:48.560 corporation from Gulf country, Saudi Arabia and others in reconstruction 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:53.720 or Syria. It has very ambitious goals in terms of 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:57.440 remaking its relationships with all the countries in the region. 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:02.040 Russia has a very speci ific role in the sense 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:05.360 that it keeps ties with all of the different countries, 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:08.960 mutual enemies. It's quite unique in that way. And that's 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:12.400 Henry Meyer joining us from Moscow and Carol I thought 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:15.200 that was so interesting in part because we've obviously been 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:18.880 looking at this through a very US focus, Lens, but 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:21.480 Russia is a major player in all of this well, 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:25.280 especially when if we're creating vacuums in an area like 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:28.560 the Middle East, which is so unsettled, it does provide 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:31.240 an opportunity for Russia to fill that and you do 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:34.680 wonder about the consequences UH in the future as a 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:37.479 result of that. This is an important story. The story 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:39.960 of Jewel is not unlike that of so many esteem 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:42.720 Silicon Valley tech startups that moved fast. It disrupted an 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:46.000 established industry. We're talking about the cigarette business, that's right, 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:49.320 and it has found itself in the middle of probably 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:52.599 one of the biggest public health controversies we've seen in 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:56.599 quite some time. Lornetta joins us from l A. She 0:06:57.080 --> 0:06:59.800 is the co author of one of the really most 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:03.080 spelling reads in the magazine this week, It's all about Jewel. 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:06.400 I learned a ton from this story. Lauren, take us 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:09.520 back to the beginning, because the origins of this company 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:14.400 are fascinating. Yeah, absolutely so. Like many other Silicon Valley companies, 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:17.840 this one started at Stanford University. The two founders of 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:21.680 the company were graduate students studying at the Business school, 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:26.640 and they were smokers and they were sharing smokes out 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:30.360 back and decided that, wow, this is a very outmoded 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:33.240 product and maybe we can innovate on this. So that's 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:35.200 what they set out to do. They did a lot 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:38.280 of research, they launched their very first version of an 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:41.080 east cigarette UM at a time when there wasn't too 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:44.960 much competition on the market. So they basically innovated in 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:49.320 the cigarette space and launched what became the most popular 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:51.120 east cigarette in the world. All right, but it wasn't 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:53.160 so easy, right, because at first I think that the 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:55.600 initial device maybe didn't work so well. It was hard 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:58.880 getting investor money to initially. Yeah. Yeah. You know. It's 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:01.600 interesting because is at the time when they were seeking money, 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:04.280 this is circa two thousand and five to two thousand 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:06.520 and ten, when they were really starting to they have 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:09.600 their prototype, they want to start launching it, and they 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:13.440 kind of got the cold shoulder from Silicon Valley investors. Originally, 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:16.680 this is considered the tobacco industry is kind of considered 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:19.440 to be one of the sin industries, and Silicon Valley 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:22.840 really kind of shunned and shunned those sin industries. So 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:26.239 they originally had a very tough time getting some funding. 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:28.560 But that all changed, of course a little bit later 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:31.240 down the road. And what changed it, I mean, obviously 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:34.800 part of it was positioning, because they got people on 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:36.960 board with this idea of no, no, no, no, this 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:41.600 is actually an antidote in a way to what was 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:47.320 already considered then a public health crisis. Exactly. So two things, well, 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:50.880 multiple things happened, but really cigarettes had just it was 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:54.920 very clear that cigarettes were going to be a dying industry. 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:58.640 Fewer people every year, we're smoking three percent declines year 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:02.720 over year, and everybody was starting to turn away from cigarettes. 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:06.120 But of course they're addicted. They are addicted to the nicotine. 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:09.160 So that's sort of what the company founders really zeroed 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:12.480 in on. We can allow smokers to continue to have 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:14.959 a nicotine fix, but it's not going to have the 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:17.960 combustion that causes the tar and the lungs and is 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:20.400 ultimately the cause of lung cancer. So they kind of 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:24.200 positioned it almost as a more healthful product, as a 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:30.000 healthful alternative to cigarettes, and that's really it started catching on. Um. 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:34.360 But the second thing was really it's a very addictive product. Um. 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:39.480 They invented something called a nicotine salt vape liquid. And 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:43.280 basically they had chemists early on in their laboratories and 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:47.880 they devise this ultra powerful nicotine liquid and that for 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:50.840 sure helped get a lot of people hooked onto their products. Well, 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:53.400 and I think what is so troubling is how did 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:58.320 so many teenagers, right those under age get hooked on 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:01.800 a product like Jewel. Well, this is the thorniest issue 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:05.400 regarding Jewel. Um. But the fact of the matter is 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:09.960 early on, Jewel laid out and marketing campaign that was 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:14.480 pretty much designed to attract kids. It was super edgy, 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:19.120 had colorful graphics, really bold, they hired models, um it 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:21.600 just made it look like a very cool product. They 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:26.520 marketed on Instagram and sure enough, too much to nobody's surprise, 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:30.479 high school students eventually and meddical middle school students eventually 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:34.439 started trying the product. And the combination of the marketing 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:38.160 and the highly addictive nature of the product really allowed 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:42.080 this product or facilitated this uh facilitated the spread of 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:47.520 this product across America and high schools and middle middle schools. Um. 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:50.280 So now you have millions of people addicted to it. Well, 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:52.120 the other element of your story that's so interesting, as 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:55.120 you say, like many other Silicon Valley starts, I think 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:57.000 of something like Uber that just kind of came into 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:00.520 the market may be ignored, you know, regulation in this 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:03.720 fast moving mindset. That was very much a part of 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:05.920 the Jewel model, like just kind of get it out there, 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:09.000 because from what I understand, and you're reporting along with 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:11.480 Ellen Hewitt, is that there were folks within the company 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:14.839 that were uncomfortable about kind of how fast they were 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:17.839 ramping up into who they were ramping up. Yeah, exactly. 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:21.520 They really adopted and embraced the model that is asked, 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:25.120 ask forgiveness, not permission. And that's we saw that with 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:28.199 Uber when they flooded the streets with these on demand 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:30.839 cab drivers, and then we saw it with birds scooters. 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:34.640 That's why you trip over bird scooters everywhere on street corners. 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:37.480 So they really they adopted that model like let's just 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:40.160 get it out there as fast as possible. We need 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:43.680 to really own this market as quickly as possible because 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:46.520 it was rapidly becoming more competitive with a big cigarette 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:49.720 companies getting in it. So they really did. They scaled 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:52.920 up super quickly. They were hiring lots of new people, 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:57.160 they were producing the product at a really fast rate, 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:00.000 and yeah, that did make people inside the company uncomfortable. 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.680 All they felt like, wait a minute, let's let's slow 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:05.360 down a little bit. Let's make sure our internal controls 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:08.560 are adequate enough so we don't have any sort of 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:12.319 problem down the road. But there was constantly a mindset 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:15.840 of growth first and then let's figure it all out later, 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:19.400 which is a traditional silicon valley model. But when you 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:23.080 have a product that has such a huge health implications, 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:25.520 that's sort of that's where it got sticky Well and Lauren, 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:29.520 it feels like also mindful of the fact that regulators 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:32.400 didn't really know what to make of this. Lawmakers didn't 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:34.120 know what to make of it, so they had this 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:38.200 moment that they could seize that while those were folks 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:40.320 were figuring it all out, they were going to build 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:43.120 a big business. Yeah. This is the most interesting aspect 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:45.920 of all of this is when the cigarettes and jewels 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:50.120 started really unrolling unrolling their product. It was around two 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:54.079 thousand and fifteen and the FDA had been regulating cigarettes 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:57.120 and tobacco products now for several years, but when they 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:01.079 wrote the regulation, they didn't include e cigarettes as a 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:05.280 quote unquote tobacco product. So here come these companies that 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:09.160 are starting to sell these highly addictive nicotine products and 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:13.400 there's virtually no regulation from the FDA, So they had 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:16.920 a golden opportunity. Jewel and all these other cigarette companies, 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:20.319 they had a golden opportunity to seize the market, to 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:23.080 flood the market with as much as their product before 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:26.120 regulators came in and kind of rain them in. So 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:30.440 Jewel definitely exploited that, and all the other cigarette companies 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:34.280 did too, and that facilitated definitely the rapid wildfire spread 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:36.600 of the Jewel that we've seen over the past few years. 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:40.360 That's Lauren Eddar joining us from Los Angeles. This feature story, Jason, 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:41.400 you and I talked about it a lot in the 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:43.400 news room. I think what's interesting about this one is 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:45.440 I think we all just kind of take for granted 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:49.559 Jewel in the marketplace, But this gets into the to Stanford, 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:53.719 you know, graduates who worked on this, created this um, 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:56.199 the troubles and kind of bringing it to market initially, 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.280 but how they became really the major player in this market, 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:01.520 and how they did it by flying really under the 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:04.840 radar of regulators well and now very much front of 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:07.400 mine for regulators. And very much front of mine. I 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:13.199 feel like in the broader public conversation, this happened very quickly. 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:15.920 It's a fast moving story, and this is really important 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:19.400 context and full transparency. Michael Bloomberg, the founder majority owner 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:22.880 of Bloomberg LP, the parent company of Bloomberg Radio Bloomberg Television, 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:25.280 has campaigned and given money in support of a ban 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:29.360 on flavored East cigarettes and tobacco. So, Jason, I think 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:31.920 safe to say that increasingly we are seeing medical research 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:35.920 tap into using the human body to figure out what 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:38.600 ails it. Yeah, I was struck with this story. You know, 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:41.920 we've talked a lot about immunotherapy when it comes to 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:44.720 fighting cancer. That brings us to a story in the 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:49.720 Tech section about really harnessing the body's garbage disposal. I 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:53.360 love the imagery here. It's technical, but even I understood 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:57.320 it after reading it. Rebecca Penty joins us from London. 0:14:57.440 --> 0:14:59.920 She's got the details. So, Rebecca, what do we talk 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:02.960 about here? So for a long time, scientists have known 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:06.520 about the body's own garbage disposal. This is at a 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:10.760 molecular level, when when the body realizes that there's proteins 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:14.360 that are malfunctioning, that are bad proteins or just simply 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:18.320 proteins that it doesn't need anymore. It sends out these 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:22.720 compounds that actually collect those proteins and break them down 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:26.480 and either junk them or recycle them and create new ones. 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:30.160 And so for years, for decades, scientists have been trying 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:34.920 to figure out could we actually use that that system 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:39.000 and harness it in a way that would allow us 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:43.320 to go after diseases, because keep in mind, most diseases 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:48.320 are really just clusters of um of proteins that are 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:51.440 clumped together and that are misbehaving in a way, and 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:54.120 they need to be broken up, and most traditional medicines 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:57.880 really make them, you know, kind of put them on pause, 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:02.240 pause their growth. In this new way of thinking, in 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:06.200 this new technology, the drug companies are testing treatments that 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:12.160 would go in and piggyback onto the body's own garbage 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:17.040 disposal units and target those bad proteins and get rid 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:19.120 of them. I feel like it makes so much sense, 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:21.520 and I think they call them degraders. Right, So talk 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:23.440 to us about what's going on in the medical world, 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:27.040 who's working on it, who's who's doing the cutting edge research, 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:30.000 Because it sounds like some big drug companies are also 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:33.080 getting involved. Yeah, that's right. It started out as an 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:36.040 idea that came out of Yale University, and then it 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:39.000 turned into sort of a fringe area of medical research. 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:42.520 It was very difficult for scientists involved in the early 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:46.840 stage to get funding. But earlier in this past decade, 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:50.200 what scientists started discovering is that some of the most 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:54.400 successful drugs, so Revlimid, for example, it's a it's a 0:16:54.480 --> 0:17:01.200 multiple my aloma cancer drug, functioned by blocking the body's 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:06.560 own garbage recycling unit so or process. Rather, so they 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:10.400 discovered that these drugs work by blocking that process. Now 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:12.679 scientists started to think, what if we could do the 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:15.800 reverse and what if we could harness that process, and 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:19.760 so in around two fourteen, two fifteen was when things 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.879 really started to take off. And since then all the 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:25.800 big drug companies as well as some smaller biotechs. So 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:28.159 if you think of the big guys like Beer and 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:32.960 em Gine, Novartis, they're all involved in testing these new 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:39.560 treatments targeting various cancers, Alzheimer's, you know, pick a disease, 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:42.359 you name it, they're looking at it. Um this this 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:46.640 could have broad, broad appeal. Is worth mentioning that this 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:50.240 is still very early stage. Um. Only a few of 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:52.400 these drugs have hit human trials and a few more 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.080 going to hit human trials in the coming year. So 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:57.520 it'll be a few years yet before we find out 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:01.720 whether this treatment, this type of treatment is really effective 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:05.600 and safe. But there are high, high hopes. And so, Rebecca, 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:09.000 what was the breakthrough moment in terms of moving it 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:12.480 from the fringe to the mainstream. I mean, obviously the 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:15.280 answer would seem to be there's some commercial appeal, that's 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:17.919 why these big drug companies are getting into it. But 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:20.159 as you said, initially when it was coming out of 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:23.000 Yale or when the research was happening, there weren't a 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:25.720 lot of takers and a lot of skepticism about whether 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:27.960 this could even be a thing. It was. It wasn't 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:31.520 one moment, but it was a series of discoveries with 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:34.480 regards to drugs that were already on the market that 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:38.000 they either found out they worked like REVLEMD the litamide, 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:40.680 which is a predecessor drugs to revlement that they either 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:45.760 worked by blocking the recycling process or they actually worked 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:50.000 by using the recycling process. You know, sometimes drugs we 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:52.280 don't actually know why they work or how they work. 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:54.880 But they work, and then scientists go when they reverse 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:57.520 engineer that and try to figure out how does this work. 0:18:57.600 --> 0:19:00.280 So in around thousand and fourteen, thousand and fifteen, two 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:03.040 thousands sixteen, they were discovering that a lot of the 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:07.560 most popular drugs were working by tapping into this garbage 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:13.040 disposal system, and so scientists started doing more targeted work, thinking, Okay, 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:15.640 what's the protein we want to go after to cure, 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:19.439 you know, prostate cancer. If we've got a patient who 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:23.680 is not responding well to traditional hormone treatments, could we 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:28.200 start going after these proteins piggybacking onto the the garbage 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:32.119 recycling process, and that's what they're doing. So various biotechs 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:34.960 are doing different things. Some are doing more kind of 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:38.719 experimental work, some are trying to just improve existing drugs, 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:42.920 like the prostate cancer treatment. And that's Rebecca Penty joining 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:46.600 us from London. This was an interesting little story, I 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:50.040 have to say, because we've talked a lot about immunotherapy, 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:53.440 but this whole notion of the garbage disposal. It was 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:57.760 a technical story in many ways and ultimately kind of simple, yeah, 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:00.159 very simple. And what's interesting is we increasingly in the 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:04.280 medical community about using the body to combat illness disease, 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:06.760 and these protein degrade ers. They could be one of 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:09.760 the most significant advances in drug making technology in decades. 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:12.639 Everybody's all and it may take some time for them 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:15.040 to come out. They're still in the early stages. But 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:19.040 I think fascinating about the possibilities. So getting to a 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:21.080 world with self driving cars could be in a world 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:24.239 where we save lives. Getting there, though, is probably going 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:27.200 to require losing a few lives first. It's a predicament. 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:31.320 This story really struck me because it is a very 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:36.240 twenty nineteen story in the sense of technology and ethics 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:41.320 and are very humanity all colliding in one story. Zach 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:45.040 Miter is here with us. It's all about Tesla and 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:49.680 its efforts to create the ultimate self driving car. What's 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:52.080 going on? So a lot of companies are trying to 0:20:52.200 --> 0:20:57.040 build driverless cars, and the promise is that set aside 0:20:57.040 --> 0:20:59.840 all the other good things that might come with driverless 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:04.359 UH technology, it could has the potential to save a 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:07.040 ton of lives. Something like thirty eight thousand people die 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:09.399 every year. It just in the United States, more than 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:14.600 a million globally, and most of those UH fatalities are 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:17.600 caused by human error of one kind or another. So 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:20.480 if you can remove somehow keep the cars but remove 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:24.199 the human error, there's just massive life saving potential. Well, 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:26.760 and that's the predicament, right that in order to get 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:31.119 to that point. Unfortunately, we're going to see some accidents 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:34.560 as people continue to test auto pilots correct because they 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:39.359 need the data to get better. Well. So Tesla is 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:42.119 taking an approach that's totally different from everyone else in 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:46.840 the autonomous industry. Almost everyone else is basically saying, we 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:49.920 have to be really careful about safety. We're going to 0:21:50.040 --> 0:21:55.040 try to build an autonomous car that works autonomously before 0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:59.280 we really like start producing it in large quantities and 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:01.920 selling it to people, and we we have to sort 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:05.399 of get it perfect or almost almost perfect before because 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:08.440 otherwise the concern is the public is gonna react, They're 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:11.040 going to freak out, they're gonna ban these things. It 0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:13.560 could be a big problem. And then there's Tesla test 0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:17.080 is taking the total opposite approach, which is saying, listen, 0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:19.520 we don't have autonomous technology yet, but we have this 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:22.399 stuff that's like pretty good. You have to oversee it. 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:26.480 It might sometimes make mistakes, but we'll just tell we'll 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:28.040 just sell it. We'll put it in the cars, and 0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:31.679 we'll tell the customers. You have to oversee this thing 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:34.040 at all times. You have to constantly supervise. It only 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:37.600 works on highways basically, but it works pretty well on highways. 0:22:37.680 --> 0:22:43.240 You can um without touching a pedal or or the 0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:46.600 steering wheel. You can drive for miles. You got in 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:50.880 a car, correct, that's right? And what was it like? Yeah, 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:54.680 walk us through that. It's it's creepy, you know, it's 0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:57.400 a it's a creepy feeling. It's very different from cruise 0:22:57.440 --> 0:23:00.720 control because it's doing all this stuff without you and 0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:03.399 you you get to see kind of what the car seas, right, 0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:05.760 so you can you have a little video screen that 0:23:05.880 --> 0:23:08.640 shows you, you know, if you drive along and there's 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:11.120 a bicyclist in front of you, it shows an icon 0:23:11.240 --> 0:23:14.440 of a bicyclist. It's recognizing somebody on a bike, or 0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:17.480 it's recognizing a truck, or it's recognizing a car, and 0:23:18.200 --> 0:23:21.879 it's making decisions about what these other objects are going 0:23:21.920 --> 0:23:25.840 to do where the road is, and it's it's driving. 0:23:26.720 --> 0:23:30.639 And so Tesla's approach, just so we totally understand it 0:23:30.840 --> 0:23:34.320 is this notion that they think you need a certain 0:23:34.359 --> 0:23:37.399 amount of data that can only really be captured in 0:23:37.720 --> 0:23:41.560