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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: When I would read Charlotte's journal, entries, her letters, her emails,

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Speaker 2: she suffered so much, saying is this the time for

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Speaker 2: tough love? Sure, we cut them off financially. Now she

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Speaker 2: did every possible thing to save her.

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Speaker 1: Son, and he was manipulated beyond belief.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked, as well as the

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Speaker 1: co host of the new show Buried Bones, both on

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Speaker 1: Exactly Right. I've traveled around the world interviewing people for

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Speaker 1: the show. I've interviewed some people in person and some

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Speaker 1: from my home studio over zoom, and they are all

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Speaker 1: excellent writers. They've had so many any great true crime stories,

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Speaker 1: and now we want to tell you those stories with

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Speaker 1: details that have never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents

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Speaker 1: Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, good

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Speaker 1: and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories behind

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Speaker 1: the stories. Author Mark Pinske wrote a book called Drifting

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Speaker 1: into Darkness. It's a harrowing story about the murder of

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Speaker 1: a couple in two thousand and four in Montgomery, Alabama.

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Speaker 1: Their a strange son was the killer. So this isn't

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Speaker 1: a who done it? But why? What is life like

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Speaker 1: for the Springford family in Montgomery in two thousand and four?

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Speaker 1: Who does what for a living? And what are the

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Speaker 1: family dynamics?

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Speaker 2: This is a family that is really plagued by tragedy

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Speaker 2: for multiple generations. Charlotte Springford as a daughter of a

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Speaker 2: PepsiCo bottler in a town called Luverne, Montgomery, outside of Montgomery,

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Speaker 2: and he was very successful. The family had multiple businesses

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Speaker 2: in Luverne, and Charlotte grew up in privilege. She traveled,

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Speaker 2: She went to the University of Alabama. She got a

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Speaker 2: bachelor's degree a master's degree. Then she went to teaching Pensacola,

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Speaker 2: where she met a young flier named Brent Springford Senior.

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Speaker 2: And they met and they married and they were looking

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Speaker 2: forward to a really prosperous life. Charlotte had several miscarriages

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Speaker 2: and she finally was able to have a child, a

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Speaker 2: daughter also named Charlotte, and about the age of two,

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Speaker 2: the parents decided it was time for them. They were

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Speaker 2: able to take a small vacation. So they left their

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Speaker 2: daughter with her father and stepmother and her sister back

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Speaker 2: in Montgomery. And there was a tragic fire and in

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Speaker 2: the fire, the toddler daughter was killed, her father was killed,

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Speaker 2: her stepmother died, and her stepsister barely survived climbing out

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Speaker 2: of the house and lost a leg in the process. Wow.

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Speaker 2: What that meant was the Springsters had to change their

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Speaker 2: whole plan for the trajectory of their life, and rather

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Speaker 2: than do something exciting, Brent Senior had to come back

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Speaker 2: and run the bottling company in Luverne. After several more miscarriages,

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Speaker 2: Charlotte had a son, Brent Junior, and later a daughter, Robin,

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Speaker 2: and they were also raised in privilege. But Brent Senior

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Speaker 2: and Charlotte were extremely philanthropic. They were good parents, they

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Speaker 2: were caring parents. They had wealth, but they were also

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Speaker 2: philanthropic and they gave to a number of causes in Montgomery.

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Speaker 2: The four of them traveled, The parents and the children

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Speaker 2: traveled around, but they were also when they traveled, they

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Speaker 2: were not typical tourists. They employed local guides and if

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Speaker 2: they came upon people who were trying to better themselves

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Speaker 2: in one way or another, that they could help. They

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Speaker 2: would do things like buy a refrigerator for a merchant

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Speaker 2: in India or something like that. So these were good,

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Speaker 2: solid people doing the best they could. They were very

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Speaker 2: engaged parents. They were involved parents. Both children went to

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Speaker 2: the best private school in Montgomery, the Montgomery Academy, and

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Speaker 2: both parents were involved in the raising of their children.

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Speaker 1: Now, when all of this is beginning to happen, how

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Speaker 1: old is everyone? How old are Charlotte and Brent before

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Speaker 1: they die?

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Speaker 2: They were in their fifties.

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Speaker 1: And how about the kids? How about Brent Junior and Robin.

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Speaker 2: At the time of the crime, Brent Junior was twenty

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Speaker 2: four and I believe Robin was twenty two.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about their relationship. Did they have a nice

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Speaker 1: sibling relationship? They're only two years apart.

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Speaker 2: They had a very good relationship. They were in the

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Speaker 2: same school, They had some of the same friends. As

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Speaker 2: they got up through high school, their social groups sort

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Speaker 2: of intersected because they were close enough in age and

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Speaker 2: their friendships and so they were often parties at the

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Speaker 2: Springford Home, which was a kind of we could say

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Speaker 2: a mansion, I would think, okay, in the Garden district

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Speaker 2: of Montgomery, and the parents liked to have the kids

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Speaker 2: close when they socialized. They thought it would be safest

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Speaker 2: to have the parties at their house, to the point

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Speaker 2: where when they were in their upper teens, the family

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Speaker 2: kind of looked the other way when alcohol was consumed

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Speaker 2: at these parties. Later they looked the other way when

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Speaker 2: weed was consumed at the parties. And Brent Senior often

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Speaker 2: joked that when he was in college he used weed

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Speaker 2: and he was in a rock and roll band. They

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Speaker 2: were very, I won't say permissive, but they were understanding.

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Speaker 2: One time, Brent Senior walked into Brent Junior's bedroom and

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Speaker 2: he was having sex with one of his classmates, and

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Speaker 2: Brent Senor sort of tiptoed out and didn't make a

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Speaker 2: big deal about it.

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Speaker 1: Do you think there is any inkling that there's anything

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Speaker 1: a miss with either of these two kids of theirs,

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Speaker 1: not at all.

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Speaker 2: The kids did not give them any reason to have concerns.

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Speaker 2: But I should say that Charlotte had a secret fear,

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Speaker 2: and the secret fear involved her family history. For three generations,

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Speaker 2: the family had been plagued with bipolar disorder, and there

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Speaker 2: had been hospitalizations, there had been suicides, there was alcoholism,

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Speaker 2: but Charlotte made a decision when the kids were growing

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Speaker 2: up not to share the family history with them. She

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Speaker 2: was afraid, I think that the kids would think, particularly

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Speaker 2: Brent Junior, with that it might be self fulfilling prophecy,

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Speaker 2: and this was something that they couldn't avoid, So she

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Speaker 2: made the decision not to share the family history with them.

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Speaker 2: So as the kids were growing up, there was no

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Speaker 2: reason to be concerned. They were socially successful. The parents

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Speaker 2: imparted to the children a kind of altruistic impulse, and

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Speaker 2: both the children carry that on. They volunteered for things.

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Speaker 2: If there were other students in their school who were

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Speaker 2: new or who weren't embraced by social groups, they would

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Speaker 2: often single them out to include them and invite them

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Speaker 2: to the party. So there was no real inkling of

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Speaker 2: any difficulty with either of the children all through high school.

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Speaker 1: So Brent Juniors twenty four and Robins twenty two, when

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Speaker 1: we're approaching this event that's happening, are they close to

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Speaker 1: their parents as adults?

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Speaker 2: Through high school, they were very close with their parents.

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Speaker 2: Brent Junior was beginning to think maybe he wanted to

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Speaker 2: broaden his vistas, that perhaps Montgomery and Alabama were too

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Speaker 2: provincial for him, so he applied to a number of

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Speaker 2: IVY League colleges. He was not a super student, so

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Speaker 2: was we all qualified, But he didn't get into the

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Speaker 2: IVY D schools. He did get into Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee,

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Speaker 2: a perfectly respectable place, and so he went to Vanderbilt,

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Speaker 2: and in his final years of high school, Brent Junior

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Speaker 2: had developed an interest in Eastern religions, particularly Buddhism and Hinduism.

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Speaker 2: When he went to Vanderbilt, he began taking courses in

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Speaker 2: world religions and approaching the subject very seriously, and his

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Speaker 2: teachers liked him. He participated, he joined a fraternity, He

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Speaker 2: did various projects during the break time during the year.

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Speaker 2: When Vanderbilt would sponsor summer programs in Latin America, he

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Speaker 2: would go and he would help build bridges and do

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Speaker 2: various things. So again, no sign of any problems. Through

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Speaker 2: his first two years at Vanderbilt, his study became more serious,

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Speaker 2: but toward the end of his sophomore year he decided

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Speaker 2: that he was really constricted both in the academic setting

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Speaker 2: and in the provincial setting of the South, and so

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Speaker 2: he came to his parents and said, I want to

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Speaker 2: do some more systematic study of Hinduism and Buddhism by

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Speaker 2: going to various retreat centers around North America, Mexico and

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Speaker 2: the US, and I want to take a year off.

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Speaker 2: And he was even supported in that by one of

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Speaker 2: his teachers at Vanderbilt, who said, this happens a lot

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Speaker 2: for young men at that age. They want to pursue

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Speaker 2: it on their own, and he endorsed the idea of

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Speaker 2: taking a year off for Brent Junior to go around.

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Speaker 2: His parents were a little concerned, how parents are, I mean,

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Speaker 2: I've gone through that as a student and as a father, frankly,

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Speaker 2: but they said okay, and they agreed to underwrite it.

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Speaker 2: The summer before he left, he worked for his father

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Speaker 2: in the bottling company. He didn't like it, but he

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Speaker 2: thought that was part of paying for the opportunity to

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Speaker 2: go and study Hinduism and Buddhism. As it happened, though,

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Speaker 2: one year stretched into two and a half or three years,

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Speaker 2: and so he continued to go to these places in

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Speaker 2: the US and Mexico, and his mother was so devoted

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Speaker 2: to him that when he would come home with a

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Speaker 2: stack of books about Buddhism and Hinduism and just some

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Speaker 2: to Readnew Age religion. His mother would buy the same books,

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Speaker 2: oh Wow, and read the same books while he was

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Speaker 2: reading those books. When he was in his sort of

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Speaker 2: spiritual odyssey across the country, he would write back about

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Speaker 2: what a wonderful place he was. On several occasions his

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Speaker 2: mother actually went out and joined the retreat and met

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Speaker 2: the people that he was studying with. She was that

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Speaker 2: devoted to him in a very sort of understanding way,

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Speaker 2: or trying to understand. As he was kind of drifting

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Speaker 2: a little bit from the established path that his parents

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Speaker 2: had hoped for him, his mother did her absolute best

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Speaker 2: to stick with him and to understand where he was

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Speaker 2: in his journey.

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Speaker 1: I do not understand how we go from very supportive

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Speaker 1: parents and well adjusted children, and a son who's exploring

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Speaker 1: different options but seems to be very well adjusted. How

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Speaker 1: do we then end up at Thanksgiving weekend two thousand

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Speaker 1: and four where so much tragedy happens.

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Speaker 2: The problem was Brent Junior wanted enlightenment. He wanted it

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Speaker 2: so deeply. He read so many books about people who

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Speaker 2: encountered some spiritual guide or some revelation in their life,

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Speaker 2: and it didn't happen to him, and it plagued him.

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Speaker 2: He kept writing to his mother and writing to his

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Speaker 2: girlfriend or writing to his friends that he wanted to

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Speaker 2: become himself a Buddha. He wanted to become a Buddha himself.

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Speaker 2: He wanted spiritual enlightenment, and it wasn't happening for him,

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Speaker 2: and his quest became more and more frantic, and we

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Speaker 2: think in retrospect that that was the beginning the incipient

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Speaker 2: symptoms of bipolar disorder. Bipolar disorder intersected with his spiritual search,

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Speaker 2: and he became more and more frantic to find that

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Speaker 2: enlightenment that everyone else that he seemed to have read

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Speaker 2: about had happened. So his parents obviously wanted to go

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Speaker 2: back to Vanderbilt, which he rejected. He then had met

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Speaker 2: someone from Oberlin College out in Ohio who said they

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Speaker 2: have a good program there, so he offered his parents Oberlin.

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Speaker 2: His parents Oberlin was not Vanderbilt, but they said, okay,

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Speaker 2: let's try it, and he applied. Late, his father pulled

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Speaker 2: some strings, he got in. His mother went out there

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Speaker 2: to help them find an apartment, and a week after

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Speaker 2: she left he told them he changed his mind that

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Speaker 2: Oberlin really wasn't for him, so he said he had

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Speaker 2: another idea. His idea was to go out to Boulder,

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Speaker 2: Colorado and enroll in Naropa University, which is a Buddhist university,

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Speaker 2: reputable Buddhist university. His parents were skeptical and concerned, but

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Speaker 2: in the end they agreed, and so he went out

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Speaker 2: to Boulder and he enrolled in Naropa and he did

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Speaker 2: very well there. At first, he was surrounded by people

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Speaker 2: like him, and he thought he was edging closer to

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Speaker 2: that enlightenment that he so desperately sought.

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Speaker 1: Now with his fervent desire for enlightenment, and he keeps

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Speaker 1: running into a brick wall and becomes more and more frustrated. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: he's in communication often with his parents and his sister.

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Speaker 1: Did Charlotte his mother, not pick up on these red flags,

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Speaker 1: knowing what her family history is.

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Speaker 2: She was torn. She knew what the family history was,

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Speaker 2: but she was hoping against hope that she could save

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Speaker 2: him from that. And at the same time, he was

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Speaker 2: on this spiritual search. And I don't think his mother

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Speaker 2: was able to separate those three strands. She wasn't sure

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Speaker 2: what was happening to him. Was it normal? Separation? Was

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Speaker 2: it incipient bipolar or was it his spiritual search? And

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Speaker 2: so she was hesitant to take any or attempt any

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Speaker 2: dramatic actions. So she's always stayed close. She always kept

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Speaker 2: the lines of communication open. She always gave him the

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Speaker 2: benefit of the doubt, even when her husband, his father

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Speaker 2: was more skeptical, but she kind of held him off

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Speaker 2: and kept staying as close as she possibly could. The

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Speaker 2: letter she was writing to him at this time are

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Speaker 2: really for any parent heartbreaking. I mean, she was really

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Speaker 2: doing everything she could to keep him close to her

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Speaker 2: and to support him and not let him drift off.

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine that Brent Senior, his father was willing

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Speaker 1: to just sort of forever fund whatever whims that his

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Speaker 1: son went on. Was there an endgame? Did the parents

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Speaker 1: say enough is enough at some point with Brent Jr?

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Speaker 2: Yes, But they stuck with him for another couple of years.

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Speaker 2: A critical point happened out in Boulder. Brent had met

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Speaker 2: a young woman graduate student at NAROPA. She had a

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Speaker 2: note up on the bulletin board and they became roommates.

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Speaker 2: There was no romantic relationship between them, but she was

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Speaker 2: very experienced in the Naropa life, and Brent looked up

246
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Speaker 2: to her, and as it happened, her parents also lived

247
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Speaker 2: in Boulder. They were also involved in New Age activities

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Speaker 2: and Eastern religions, and they had a sort of informal

249
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Speaker 2: salon at their house in Boulder, and so this roommate

250
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Speaker 2: invited Brent to come over to their house and he

251
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Speaker 2: became friendly with the family. The father, unfortunately was ill

252
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Speaker 2: and was dying, and Brent, because he was such a

253
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Speaker 2: naturally altruistic person, just sort of volunteered to be a

254
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Speaker 2: respite caretaker for this man who he really didn't know,

255
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Speaker 2: but he saw he was in distress. And Brent would

256
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Speaker 2: often come over in the evenings and spend the night

257
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Speaker 2: with this man, sleeping on the floor next to him

258
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Speaker 2: so that his wife could get some break in coverage.

259
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Speaker 2: So on one occasion, Brent was over there in the

260
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Speaker 2: salon and his path crossed with a woman named Caroline Scout.

261
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Speaker 2: Caroline Scout claimed to be a Native American shaman and

262
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Speaker 2: she lived in Wyoming but came down to Boulder about

263
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Speaker 2: once a month. She gave sort of spiritual breathing classes

264
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Speaker 2: for one hundred dollars an hour to groups, and Brent

265
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Speaker 2: was quite taken with her. The first time Brent met

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Speaker 2: her at the salon, he got down on his knees

267
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Speaker 2: and he put his forehead on the floor and said,

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Speaker 2: I've met my spiritual guide.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: After he took the breathing courses, he wrote a paper

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Speaker 2: about Caroline Scout for his Naropa class, about her spiritual

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Speaker 2: journey as a Native American shaman. He just came under

273
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Speaker 2: her sway. She didn't approach him. He approached her. She

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Speaker 2: didn't seek him out at first. She was a bit

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Speaker 2: embarrassed by this sort of fealty that he was pledging

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Speaker 2: to her.

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Speaker 1: Young man, I mean, is falling all over her.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure he didn't realize it for whatever reason, but

279
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Speaker 2: she was I think twice his age, but it didn't

280
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Speaker 2: occur to him. But he became more and more, not

281
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Speaker 2: enamored in a romantic way, but in a spiritual way

282
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Speaker 2: to her. And she got used to that, and she

283
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Speaker 2: liked having him as a customer in her breathing classes.

284
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Speaker 2: And she suggested, or he suggested, we're really not sure

285
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Speaker 2: about this, that after the spring semester ended at Naruopa

286
00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,920
Speaker 2: that he would go up to Wyoming to where she

287
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,560
Speaker 2: had a small ranch and learned about Native American customs

288
00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:00,760
Speaker 2: and helped be a caretaker on her ranch. Brandt approached

289
00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,440
Speaker 2: his parents and asked what they thought about that, and

290
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,200
Speaker 2: they seemed to think it was an okay idea as

291
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Speaker 2: long as he would promise to go back to school

292
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Speaker 2: when the summer was over, and so they agreed. He

293
00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,960
Speaker 2: went up there. He began doing chores, and as they

294
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:19,480
Speaker 2: always have done, Brent's parents decided to get close to

295
00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,560
Speaker 2: what he was doing, so they flew out to Boulder

296
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,080
Speaker 2: and met Caroline Scout there and later made a second

297
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Speaker 2: trip to Wyoming to spend some time with Brent during

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Speaker 2: the summer to see how he was doing. Now, a

299
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Speaker 2: number of things happened. One of the things that happened

300
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Speaker 2: was Caroline Scout told Brent's parents a great goal of

301
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Speaker 2: hers was to build a counseling center for abused Native

302
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Speaker 2: American women and children, and to build it in the

303
00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,560
Speaker 2: style of a big lodge. She already had the plans

304
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Speaker 2: for the lodge. She had a pad that was put down,

305
00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:54,240
Speaker 2: a concrete pad, and she basically asked them for fifty

306
00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,720
Speaker 2: thousand dollars to help finish the counseling center. They said

307
00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,560
Speaker 2: they would consider it, and they went on from there.

308
00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,520
Speaker 2: Then they went to a Native American festival with Brent

309
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,480
Speaker 2: Junior and Caroline and the two parents, and Brent Junior

310
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Speaker 2: had a meltdown at this western called Powwows, a gathering

311
00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:15,399
Speaker 2: of Native Americans, and he basically acted so weird that

312
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:20,080
Speaker 2: both Caroline scal and his parents had to apologize to

313
00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,360
Speaker 2: the Native American elders for him acting so weird. There

314
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,600
Speaker 2: was a circle and he began chanting, and he began

315
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Speaker 2: talking about all weird different things and kind of dominating

316
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Speaker 2: the conversation. So when his parents left, they were kind

317
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Speaker 2: of concerned obviously by this episode, and Brent Junior, to

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Speaker 2: kind of mollify the damage he had done, spent a

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00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,800
Speaker 2: lot of money on gifts and meals for the Native

320
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Speaker 2: American elders to smooth over this episode.

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Speaker 1: So their relationship is developing, but it's never a physical

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Speaker 1: relationship or a sexual relationship between Caroline and Brent Junior.

323
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Speaker 2: No, but at some point Caroline drives Brent Junior across

324
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Speaker 2: the state line in South Dakota, Nakoda Dead was South Dakota,

325
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Speaker 2: which is restored old western town, and they were secretly married.

326
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Speaker 2: Brent Junior later said, I don't know why we did this.

327
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Speaker 2: It was Caroline's idea, and Caroline said, don't tell your

328
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Speaker 2: parents about this, and so they were secretly married. But

329
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Speaker 2: in no sense was it a physical relationship between the two.

330
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Speaker 2: It started weird and it got weirder.

331
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Speaker 1: Where does this all lead to?

332
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Speaker 2: Mark?

333
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Speaker 1: This is going somewhere very bad. I know their relationship

334
00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,240
Speaker 1: is deepening on a spiritual level, not a physical level.

335
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Speaker 1: It sounds like his bipolar disorder is becoming more developed

336
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Speaker 1: and he is experiencing different stressors. He's trying to get

337
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Speaker 1: his parents to pay for something that's very important to him.

338
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Speaker 1: And I imagine that at least Brent Senior is becoming

339
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,320
Speaker 1: a little more frustrated as time goes on that things

340
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,160
Speaker 1: are not going the right way for his son.

341
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Speaker 2: Yes, but it was a little divided because on a

342
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,600
Speaker 2: couple occasions, Brent Junior went home to Montgomery for they

343
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Speaker 2: It was a family Christmas party that they gave for

344
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,160
Speaker 2: one hundred people every year, and one year he came

345
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,439
Speaker 2: back and he had shaved his head. He was wearing

346
00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,679
Speaker 2: a monk's robe and he appeared at this fancy dress,

347
00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,760
Speaker 2: black tie Christmas party, which was one of the social

348
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,200
Speaker 2: events of the season in Montgomery and made everybody kind

349
00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:38,479
Speaker 2: of roll their eyes. And so when he went back.

350
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Speaker 2: By this time, his parents were basically treating Caroline as

351
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:46,200
Speaker 2: an unofficial caretaker, and they were sending check after check

352
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:48,720
Speaker 2: after check, and so it started out with five thousand

353
00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,760
Speaker 2: dollars and then twenty thousand dollars, and then they were

354
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:56,320
Speaker 2: buying cars for Caroline's adult children and paying tuition. Both

355
00:19:56,359 --> 00:20:01,080
Speaker 2: the parents were having doubts. Charlotte wrote her friends that, yes,

356
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Speaker 2: I know people think that this woman is a gold digger.

357
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,080
Speaker 2: I understand that, but we're getting something from this. She

358
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:12,040
Speaker 2: is taking care of Brent. She had finally gotten Caroline

359
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:16,200
Speaker 2: to take Brent for psychiatric care, initial psychiatric care. And

360
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,960
Speaker 2: she never said this, but I got the feeling from

361
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,399
Speaker 2: reading her correspondence of the time that one of the

362
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,280
Speaker 2: things she was grateful for Caroline is that she kept

363
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,520
Speaker 2: Brent out there. She kept Brent out of Montgomery, she

364
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:33,560
Speaker 2: avoided any more embarrassing situations. And at some point they

365
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,080
Speaker 2: decided that when he decided not to go back to

366
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,680
Speaker 2: Naropa in the fall and stayed through the winter, they

367
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,360
Speaker 2: didn't like the idea of him being in Wyoming. They

368
00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,880
Speaker 2: didn't think he could get the right kind of psychiatric care.

369
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:50,280
Speaker 2: So they offered to buy them a house in greedy Colorado,

370
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:54,199
Speaker 2: not far from Boulder, where they would be closer to

371
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,240
Speaker 2: much more sophisticated psychiatric care. And so the lure was,

372
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Speaker 2: we'll buy you this house. And they bought a house

373
00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:05,640
Speaker 2: for a pelf a million dollars, and weirdly again, Caroline

374
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 2: moved in. She moved in her two adult and one

375
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 2: adolescent daughter, but she left Brent back in Wyoming, working

376
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,199
Speaker 2: on oil rigs in South Dakota and taking care of

377
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,320
Speaker 2: her ranch. And poor Brent. He was hearing voices, he

378
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,919
Speaker 2: was almost falling off of oil derricks, he was hearing

379
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:27,399
Speaker 2: celestial noises.

380
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 1: He was deteriorating.

381
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,359
Speaker 2: Then he was and the animals on the ranch were

382
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,800
Speaker 2: dying because he neglected them or left gates open. And

383
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,160
Speaker 2: so finally it was decided by Caroline, I think there

384
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,520
Speaker 2: was time for Brent Junior to come and join them

385
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,200
Speaker 2: at this new house. So Brent did go down there,

386
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 2: did move in, but he only moved in in a

387
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 2: manner of speaking. Caroline wouldn't let him much less in

388
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,159
Speaker 2: her bedroom. She wouldn't let him live inside the house.

389
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:56,440
Speaker 2: He built an area in the garage, the adjoining garage,

390
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 2: and he was not permitted to come into the house

391
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,480
Speaker 2: unless he called first for permission. He had a hot

392
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 2: plate out there, he had a single bed out there.

393
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:09,400
Speaker 2: Things were just really getting worse. And his mother didn't

394
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,919
Speaker 2: know about this living arrangement. She only knew that he

395
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 2: had finally agreed to move into the house and he

396
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 2: was seeing a psychiatrist. She didn't know about all this

397
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 2: other strangeness. And the checks kept coming and the demands

398
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,679
Speaker 2: kept escalating. They did, at one point finally say that

399
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 2: they had looked at the plans, the architectural plans for

400
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 2: this counseling center, and Brent's architects said, this is not

401
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 2: a sound facility. You shouldn't put any money into it. Wow.

402
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,879
Speaker 1: Okay, So what was Brent's decision? Did Brent Senior say, Okay,

403
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 1: that's right, that's fine.

404
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 2: Brent Senior said, we'll continue to pay upkey, but I'm

405
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 2: not going to give this woman fifty thousand dollars to

406
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 2: build this counseling center. When that decision was communicated, both

407
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 2: Brent and Caroline blew their stacks. Oh boy, And you

408
00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,040
Speaker 2: can see in his letters and emails Brent becoming in

409
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 2: increasingly unhinged, and if you read the communications, they're coming

410
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 2: from Brent Junior. But the tone and the hostility in

411
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 2: retrospect was clearly Caroline's. It's clear to me that she

412
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 2: was telling him what he should say to his parents,

413
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 2: and it was becoming increasingly hostile, demanding, entitled. It was

414
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 2: like Brent and behind him Caroline. Basically we're seeing his

415
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,399
Speaker 2: parents as an ATM machine and not much more than that.

416
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 1: And she's obviously cutting off communication. Is he even speaking

417
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 1: to his mom over the phone at this point, No.

418
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 2: All the communication is written. Caroline doesn't pass the phone

419
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 2: calls through to Brent Junior. So if they want to communicate,

420
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 2: they have to either speak with Caroline or receive written

421
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 2: communications from Brent Junior. And the isolation is becoming greater

422
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 2: and greater.

423
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 1: And this is obviously something you touch on in the

424
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 1: book on how this is common with victims of domestic violence.

425
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 1: He was a victim of at least manipulation and abuse.

426
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: Is this isolation, yes.

427
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 2: And she was giving him all these physical tasks to

428
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 2: do around the new house, and he did everything she

429
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 2: said and more. He was digging in the backyard what

430
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 2: he called a worry hole. He had a miner's lamp

431
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 2: on his head, and late at night he would dig

432
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 2: this great, big hole for no reason, just because he

433
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 2: was digging a hole. When people asked him, he said, well,

434
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 2: in case one of the horses dies, we can put

435
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 2: it in there. And it was like, I mean, they

436
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,199
Speaker 2: clearly called it a worry hole. He just as his

437
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:32,199
Speaker 2: anxiety increased, he just began doing stranger and stranger things,

438
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 2: and all the spiritual stuff that had drawn him to

439
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:39,360
Speaker 2: Caroline seems to just waste it away. And she, if

440
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 2: you read some of Brent Junior's journal entries, she kept

441
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 2: beating him down, telling he was nothing, he was worthless,

442
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 2: he was self centered, he was egocentric, and he just

443
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,439
Speaker 2: took it. He never because he had so much trust

444
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,360
Speaker 2: in her and faith in her, he thought, well, she's right,

445
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 2: I am a piece of crap essentially.

446
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 1: So give me the time frame here, from the time

447
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: he meets Caroline till what happens with his parents in

448
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: two thousand and four.

449
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 2: From their first meeting until the telltale Thanksgiving weekend of

450
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 2: two thousand and four was about five years.

451
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 1: So what is the switch that was flipped that turned

452
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 1: this violent? Was it Brent Senior saying, I am not

453
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,719
Speaker 1: going to fund this counseling center for Caroline. Is that

454
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: what triggered all of this?

455
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 2: There were two things that triggered it. His sister, Robin,

456
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 2: was getting married to a high school sweetheart. And Robin

457
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 2: had also gone to Vanderbilt, had graduated, had gone to

458
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 2: graduate school. As Brent Junior was becoming more troubled, she

459
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 2: was becoming more the perfect daughter. And so they had

460
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 2: planned this wedding. And Robin, his sister, had always kept

461
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 2: up communication with him, not at the same level as

462
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 2: his mother, but kept up good communication with him, and

463
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 2: she asked him if he would come to the wedding,

464
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 2: and he was flattered and he agreed. But as Brent

465
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 2: Junior's condition continued to deteriorate, the family came to a

466
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,239
Speaker 2: decision that it would not be a good thing for

467
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 2: Brent to come to the wedding. They were afraid he

468
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 2: might show up with a machine gun or he might

469
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 2: disrupt it, and it was going to be one of

470
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 2: the social events of the Montgomery season. And so the

471
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 2: parents reluctantly spoke to Robin, and Robin disinvited her brother

472
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 2: to the wedding, and that was a real blow to him.

473
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 2: Around the same time, Brent Senior had decided he had

474
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 2: had enough, he and his wife had been played for

475
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,640
Speaker 2: a sucker by this woman, and that he was not

476
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 2: going to continue to support these increasing demands. And so

477
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,360
Speaker 2: they announced just before the wedding to them that they

478
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 2: were no longer going to support them financially at all.

479
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: The house nothing, They were going to take all this

480
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: stuff away.

481
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 2: The status of the house was unclear. The house was

482
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 2: purchased in the name of the parents, in the name

483
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 2: of Charlotte and Brent Senior, and I always felt in

484
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 2: retrospect they were holding that as a card to play

485
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 2: to get Caroline, to get Brent Junior into a residential

486
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 2: psychiatric program. Charlotte had already put Brent Junior on the

487
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 2: waiting list at Harvard and at due a number of

488
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 2: programs to get in. He's there very expensive programs obviously.

489
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: To treat bipolar disorder right.

490
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 2: But impatient, no more evaluation than out. But it looked

491
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 2: like that wasn't going to work. So Brent Senior finally

492
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 2: had enough and said I'm cutting you off. I'm cutting

493
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 2: the credit cards off. They made no specific mention of

494
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 2: the house but the cash was going to start. Six

495
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 2: weeks later, Brent Junior gets on a bus from Boulder,

496
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 2: taken to the bus station by Caroline, and takes several

497
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 2: buses through the night to Montgomery. He gets off the

498
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 2: bus in Montgomery and runs the two miles to his

499
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 2: old house in the Garden district of Montgomery. He sees

500
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 2: there's no one there. Lights are out, but he knew

501
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 2: there was a window in his sister's old bedroom where

502
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 2: they could go in and go out without setting off

503
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 2: the burglar alarm, so he climbs up the trellis onto

504
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 2: the second floor, punches out a window, climbs in and waits.

505
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 2: At that point, they didn't come home that night, which

506
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 2: was the night before Thanksgiving, but he laid it in

507
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 2: wait and some strange things happened. For some reason, a

508
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 2: burglar alarm did go off. Two Montgomery police officers came

509
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 2: out to the house and found nothing left the tag

510
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 2: and went home. Some of the neighbors later said they

511
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 2: had heard some noise and saw some lights and went

512
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,120
Speaker 2: over but didn't see anything. Apparently, Brent Junior saw there

513
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 2: was activity, slipped out of the house hid in the

514
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: backyard while people looked around the house and then went

515
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: back in the house. He spent the night there in

516
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 2: the house. As if he wasn't troubled enough. He saw

517
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 2: that his sister Robin's room was exactly as she had

518
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 2: left it, but his bedroom had become a storage closet

519
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 2: for his mother's clothes, so he felt again he had

520
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 2: been displaced and almost erased from the family. So you

521
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 2: can imagine how that night was for him. So mid

522
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 2: afternoon the next day, after a Thanksgiving brunch in Birmingham,

523
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 2: his parents pulled up in his dad's Jaguar. His dad

524
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 2: had a weakness for driving fast. His father was stopped

525
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 2: for speeding on the away from Birmingham back to Montgomery.

526
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 2: They went in the back door by the kitchen and

527
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 2: exactly what happened the order of things is not clear

528
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 2: because we have three different versions, but at some point,

529
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 2: very early on, Brent Senior walked up the backstairs, where

530
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 2: Brent Junior set upon him furiously with an axe handle.

531
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 2: Brent Senior was bigger than his son. He was trained

532
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 2: in martial arts, but apparently he did not see that

533
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 2: coming and he was battered to the floor. Before he

534
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 2: knew what happened, Brent had Also, in addition to sawing

535
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 2: the head off the axe to get the axe handle,

536
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 2: he had taken a steak knife from the kitchen, and

537
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 2: he stabbed and slashed his father's throat and dragged him

538
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 2: into the closet at some later point. We don't know

539
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 2: what his mother heard, what Charlotte heard, but she went

540
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 2: upstairs and apparently didn't notice what had happened, and Brent

541
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 2: set upon her in the master bedroom. She saw him

542
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 2: coming and their defensive wounds that she tried to protect

543
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 2: herself and save herself, but she went to the floor,

544
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 2: and even there signs that she tried to drag herself

545
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 2: through the telephone, at which point he used the steak

546
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 2: knife to finish her off as well. Shortly thereafter he

547
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 2: went downstairs, he rifled the house. He may have taken

548
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,239
Speaker 2: some cash, but may not have ashed because later when

549
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 2: police inspected, there was twenty thousand dollars in cash in

550
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 2: various places left around the house. This was the kind

551
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 2: of family they were.

552
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: Wow.

553
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 2: So Brent got in his dad's Jaguar and headed north

554
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 2: and west.

555
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: Does he stage the scene at all? I mean, is

556
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 1: he trying to make this look like a botched home invasion?

557
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 1: Or anything.

558
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 2: He scattered some things around the floor, but it was

559
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 2: really a half hearted effort. It wasn't a serious effort.

560
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,479
Speaker 2: He emptied some bags of groceries on the floor, but

561
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 2: I don't think he gave a lot of thought to that.

562
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 2: And he had as a criminal, as a murderer, he

563
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 2: had the good fortune of not leaving any physical evidence.

564
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 2: For all the blood, for all the struggle. All that

565
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 2: was left in the house when he left that could

566
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 2: tie him to the house was a fingerprint. But the

567
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 2: fingerprint was not in blood, and since he grew up

568
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 2: in that house, the fingerprint had no value. His clothes,

569
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 2: in his shoes, his boots, he left bootprints, and his

570
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 2: clothes must have been blood spattered. But on this furious

571
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 2: drive north and west through the countryside, he threw his

572
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 2: clothes away. He threw the boots away, and he didn't

573
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 2: remember where he had thrown them away, somewhere between Montgomery

574
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 2: and Tulsa, and they were never recovered. So there was

575
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 2: no physical evidence at that point to connect him to

576
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 2: the murder. Of course, when the police came to the

577
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 2: murder scene, all Brenton and Charlotte's friend said, look for

578
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 2: brent See where Brent was.

579
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: Who else would it be?

580
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 2: Right?

581
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: Well, what I'm curious about is what is the motive here?

582
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: Is it pure anger and revenge or is it some

583
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: bigger scheme knowing that maybe he was a beneficiary on

584
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: life insurance? Why take this risk at all?

585
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 2: That's a very troubling question.

586
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 1: Were Caroline? I mean, this is Caroline, it's her idea.

587
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:58,719
Speaker 1: Isn't she thinking more logically than this?

588
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,719
Speaker 2: They're two answers. One is Brent's answer. Brent Junior's answer.

589
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 2: He gave three detailed confessions, two in writing, one on tape,

590
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 2: and they were all different.

591
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 1: Oh that's what you meant by three different versions. I

592
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: was wondering what you meant by that.

593
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 2: He kept saying he wanted a reconciliation with his parents,

594
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 2: and he thought that if he went back he could

595
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 2: have a reconciliation with them, but that seemed so at odds.

596
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 2: And then he said he was shocked by the fact

597
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 2: that his parents didn't welcome him home when they first

598
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 2: saw him. We're not sure exactly where they first saw him,

599
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 2: but in one account he said they saw him and

600
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 2: they said, what are you doing in this house? And

601
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 2: he said that his father said, get the fuck out

602
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,479
Speaker 2: of my house. And at that point, in one account,

603
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 2: he said he felt like he had left his body

604
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 2: and that a demon who he called Akasha, a spirit demon,

605
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 2: had taken over his body, and that Akasha was the

606
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 2: one who had committed all these murders. That's on Brent's side.

607
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 2: On Caroline side, we have testimony and evidence that this

608
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 2: was all her idea, that she had hatched the plot,

609
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 2: that she had coached him in what to do. She

610
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 2: then drove him to the bus to go and picked

611
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 2: him up when he came back, and later provided him

612
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 2: with a false alibi for what that time was. We

613
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 2: have different interpretations of that. Caroline, in my view, was

614
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 2: both stupid and cunning, which is to say she was

615
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 2: stupid and that she thought that even if Brent Junior

616
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 2: was convicted of murder, even if he was executed, that

617
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 2: because they were married, she and her family would become

618
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 2: the successors in interest of the parents' estate. Well, in

619
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 2: no state in this country can you benefit from a crime.

620
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 2: That's English common law. But she was convinced of that,

621
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,479
Speaker 2: and up until the very end when she said, if

622
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 2: your executor will come out and see you, her notion

623
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 2: was that she was going to get this money somehow.

624
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 2: And after Brent was arrested and after he was being

625
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 2: prepared for trial, Caroline kept contacting the defense team, saying,

626
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 2: what about the estate, what's the status of the estate.

627
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: Tell me about the real Caroline scout that I'm sure

628
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: unravels once Brent Junior is arrested and she's arrested too,

629
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: I'm assuming Nope, what she's an accomplice.

630
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 2: Well, the thing is that there was no evidence that

631
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 2: she was unaccomplice. Brent Junior was so under her sway

632
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 2: from the time he was arrested until the time he

633
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 2: pleaded guilty. He would not roll on her. He could

634
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 2: probably have gotten a much better deal than the deal

635
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 2: that he got if he was willing to roll on

636
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 2: her as being the architect or the intellectual author of

637
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 2: this crime, but he refused to do it. Absent Brent's testimony,

638
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 2: there was nothing at all to connect Caroline with the crime,

639
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 2: other than the false alibi she gave him, which she

640
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 2: then got a lawyer and rolled back and said, all

641
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 2: I didn't understand. I was confused, And so the only

642
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,320
Speaker 2: charge she might have been subject to would be accessory

643
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 2: after the factor murder. If she provided a false alibi

644
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 2: to Brent Junior, but he wouldn't corroborate that, and her

645
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,720
Speaker 2: adult children wouldn't corroborate that, and so they had nothing

646
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 2: on her. Plus, in the end, the trial was in

647
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 2: Montgomery and she was in Colorado. And what she would

648
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 2: have done if they could prove she had done it,

649
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 2: she would have done in Colorado, even though the murder

650
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 2: trial took place in Montgomery. So they were all sorts

651
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 2: of legal difficulties to charge her, and they couldn't, and

652
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 2: they didn't. She then leveraged her sway on Brent Junior

653
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,879
Speaker 2: with a defense team. When it came time to try

654
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 2: to negotiate a plea, he wouldn't do anything unless Caroline

655
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 2: told him to do it and approved him to do it.

656
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 2: In the early stages, he was facing the death penalty,

657
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 2: so they didn't have a competency hearing. Okay, this is Alabama,

658
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 2: and the issue of competency was the first line of

659
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 2: defense for his defense team, and that process played out

660
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 2: over two to three years after his arrest. So in

661
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 2: a case like this, you do what the lawyers call

662
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,439
Speaker 2: you shrink shop. You find mental health people who will

663
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 2: support your position that he was not competent at the

664
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 2: time of the crime, or he was not competent to

665
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 2: stand trial. Meantime, the state, which has the greatest interest

666
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 2: in sending him to death row, had their own state

667
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 2: supported shrinks who had a predisposition for disregarding all charges

668
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 2: of metal in competence. Now, in Brent Junior's case, it

669
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 2: was very strange because oftentimes when you have competence, you

670
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,720
Speaker 2: don't have documentation. But in Brent's case, he had seen

671
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 2: four different shrinks, he had had seventy two evaluations. And

672
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 2: when I got the copies of his psychiatric records, which

673
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 2: are something you really can't get in the ear of

674
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 2: hip hop, but I got them. When I put them

675
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 2: on the floor of my office, they were a foot

676
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 2: and a half tall. And yet with all this documentation,

677
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 2: the state was able to convince the judge that he

678
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 2: was competent to stand trial, that he was malingering, he

679
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 2: was making all this stuff up, which was baffling to

680
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 2: me having read all the psychiatric records that they brought

681
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:54,720
Speaker 2: into the case.

682
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 1: So he takes a plea deal, Is that right?

683
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 2: He does a plea of life without parole with the

684
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 2: understanding that Brent would serve that time in a secure

685
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 2: prison psychiatric unit.

686
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: Okay, what is Robin his sister's reaction to all of this?

687
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:13,399
Speaker 1: What happens with her?

688
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 2: She hated her brother, she hated what happened. And in

689
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 2: the end, when the final proceeding on the plea, when

690
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 2: they had victim impact statements, Robin stood up to the

691
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 2: judge and basically said, my brother should have gotten the

692
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 2: death penalty for the damage that he caused to us.

693
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 1: Now that he's gone off to jail and he's serving

694
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: life without possibility of parole, what do we learn about

695
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 1: Caroline Scout and what ends up happening with her. She's

696
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 1: a fraud. I'm assuming I think you're leading to that

697
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:45,280
Speaker 1: she's a fraud.

698
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 2: Yes, we learned that she had been in legal difficulty

699
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 2: off and on for years. She had been scamming people

700
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:57,320
Speaker 2: throughout the West, in California and Wyoming and South Dakota,

701
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 2: mostly on the scam to build the council center. She had,

702
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 2: under false pretenses extracted half a million dollars from one

703
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 2: woman alone who wanted to do good. The money went

704
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 2: to build the counseling center, except it wasn't a counseling center.

705
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 2: It was never a counseling center. It became her new

706
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 2: primary residence. And there was another person she had scammed

707
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 2: who threatened her with exposure and legal action, and she

708
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 2: actually she returned thirty thousand dollars to this woman to

709
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,720
Speaker 2: keep the case out of court. We learned a number

710
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 2: of us I was involved in the investigation. Tevil Carners

711
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 2: were involved in the investigation. It turns out she is

712
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 2: not Native American, was never a shaman, was born in

713
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 2: southern California Hispanic, although on a birth certificate it says Caucasian.

714
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 2: She was never any of the things that she had

715
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 2: claimed to be. Now, she was also scamming people on

716
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 2: her spirituality breathing scam that she had going on down

717
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 2: in Boulder, taking advantage of many people who believed in

718
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 2: spirituality and New Age stuff. And she was scamming there

719
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 2: to us, one scam after another, but they never actually

720
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,479
Speaker 2: made it into the legal system because people were often

721
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 2: so embarrassed that they had been taken by this person

722
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 2: they would rather write off the loss of the money

723
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 2: than admit that they had been gullible and taken.

724
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 1: And then she just is free to go on to

725
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 1: the next person. Yes, so Brent has been convicted for

726
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: more than ten years. Is there a point where this

727
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 1: man comes to any realizations about her and what's happened.

728
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 2: No, he's totally under her sway. He basically builds a

729
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 2: shrine to her in his cell with photographs of her.

730
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 2: In a prison cell, you have your own commode to

731
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 2: go to the bathroom, and when he would go to

732
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 2: the bathroom, he would turn the picture of her away

733
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 2: from him so she wouldn't be subjected. He believed that

734
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 2: she was coming to his cell at night through astral

735
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 2: projection and coming to him and speaking to him, even

736
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 2: though at some point she cut off communication with him,

737
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 2: and the cut off of communication sent him into a

738
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 2: further spiral. Now, the care he was getting in the

739
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 2: prison was what you might expect in an Alabama prison unit.

740
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 2: And I've seen some correspondence with the prison psychologist saying,

741
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 2: I don't think this is going to have a good outcome.

742
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,760
Speaker 2: And he tried to adjust, but he was not really

743
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 2: well supervised. And at one point they were going to

744
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:19,839
Speaker 2: move him to a different section of the prison, and

745
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 2: he said, if you moved me to a different section

746
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,320
Speaker 2: of the prison, I'll kill myself. Now in a prison

747
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 2: setting in a psychiatric unit. People are going to save

748
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 2: things like that, but they never followed up. And what

749
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 2: he did was he was a smart guy. He saved

750
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 2: up tylanol, which he had a script for, and saved

751
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 2: it and saved it and saved it, and one day

752
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:41,919
Speaker 2: took all of them, knowing that he would have liver

753
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 2: failure as a result, and he died.

754
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 1: Wow, what was her ending? Is she still around?

755
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 2: She died of natural causes about two years ago, but

756
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 2: before that she liquidated her holdings in Wyoming and moved

757
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 2: out of Wyoming, but never suffered any conscert sequences. Law enforcement,

758
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 2: both in Wyoming and elsewhere, believed that she had a

759
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 2: cash of money somewhere that could have been two, three,

760
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 2: four or five hundred thousand dollars. She sold the rants

761
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,720
Speaker 2: for three hundred thousand dollars. Where the money went nobody

762
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 2: really knows now. I will say that in the months

763
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 2: before she died, a number of us were pursuing her

764
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 2: officially for involvement not in the Springford murders, but in

765
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 2: a questionable death that took place on our property in Wyoming,

766
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,320
Speaker 2: for which she was a beneficiary of several insurance companies

767
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 2: and the victim in that case an apparent suicide, but

768
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 2: under questionable circumstances. The person who killed himself was actually

769
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:49,760
Speaker 2: a friend of Brench Junior's from Boulder, was also psychologically

770
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 2: vulnerable and who fell under her sway as well. So

771
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 2: that's where the investigation was going at the time that

772
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 2: she died, so there was no opportunity to compel her

773
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 2: to have her day in court. There was a corner's

774
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 2: inquest about this death in which law enforcement tried to

775
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 2: get her to the witness stand, but she lawyered up

776
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 2: and was able to claim right of self incrimination and

777
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 2: not testify that the coroner's inquest in Wyoming, and the

778
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 2: finding of that was that this death was not suicide,

779
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,320
Speaker 2: that was homicide. Wow, and the members of the corner's

780
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,760
Speaker 2: jurys said they strongly suspected that she was the author

781
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 2: of that crime as well.

782
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 1: So in this woman's world are four deaths that we

783
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:36,359
Speaker 1: can connect to her, including Brent, who might not have

784
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,799
Speaker 1: taken his own life had he not been involved. He

785
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,240
Speaker 1: certainly wouldn't have been incarcerated. Most likely if he hadn't

786
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,800
Speaker 1: been involved with her, hopefully right, he would have lived

787
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 1: a life where he had gotten proper help at some point.

788
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,760
Speaker 2: Had that not fateful event happened where he crossed paths

789
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:57,359
Speaker 2: with Caroline Scout in this salon in Boulder, Colorado, none

790
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 2: of this would have happened. He might have been ill,

791
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 2: might have had to been hospitalized. But bipolar is something

792
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 2: that can be treated if you have a strong support system.

793
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 2: Not to mention resources, financial resources. Who knows when I

794
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 2: would read Charlotte's journal, entries, her letters, her emails. She

795
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 2: suffered so much saying what's the best way? Is this

796
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 2: the time for tough love? Should we cut them off

797
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 2: financially now? Should we make demands? Should we have put

798
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 2: down our foot when he wanted to leave Vanderbilt? Should

799
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 2: we have put down our foot when he wanted to

800
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 2: leave Naropa? What would have been the right thing? And

801
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 2: she was often asking friends of hers who were professionals,

802
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 2: who were psychiatrists. Yeah, she did every possible thing to

803
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:42,760
Speaker 2: save her son.

804
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 1: And he was manipulated beyond belief. My new book, All

805
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 1: That Is Wicked is available now, including the audiobook. All

806
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 1: that Is Wicked is based on our first season of

807
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Speaker 1: tenfold More Wicked. You might think you know the whole

808
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 1: story of Killer Edward Rulof's Crimes, but there's so much more.

809
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Speaker 1: My book American Sherlock is also available. This has been

810
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Speaker 1: an exactly right tenfold War Media production. The producer is Alexismirosi.

811
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Speaker 1: Our mixer is Ryo Baum. Curtis Heath is Our composer.

812
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Speaker 1: Nick Toga did the artwork. Ilsabrink designed the website. The

813
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 1: executive producers are Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer.

814
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Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more

815
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Speaker 1: Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold More. And if you

816
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 1: know of a historical crime that could use some attention,

817
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 1: especially if it happened in your family, email us at

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Speaker 1: info at tenfoldwar wicked dot com. We'll also take your

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Speaker 1: suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked Words