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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 1: I'm Julie Douglas. Julie, tell me about the time you

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Speaker 1: met a ghost hunter. All right, if I must. It's

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Speaker 1: a painful memory, but I will tell you. This is

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Speaker 1: a ghost hunter you hired. No no, no, no, no

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Speaker 1: no no, no hiring of ghost hunters yet. But it

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Speaker 1: was someone that I interviewed for a weekly newspaper that

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Speaker 1: I worked for. And it was around Halloween, so we're

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Speaker 1: getting in on the Halloween action. And this is a

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Speaker 1: fairly well known ghost hunter who I shall not name.

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Speaker 1: And it was a sort of a It was an

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Speaker 1: interesting experience because I was just talking to him about

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Speaker 1: his methodology and in the middle of the interview he

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Speaker 1: just started laughing and kind of tossing his head around,

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Speaker 1: looking up in the ether. And I said, is there

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Speaker 1: something wrong? And he said, oh no, he said, I

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Speaker 1: just have this one ghost that kind of hangs out

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Speaker 1: with me. And you know, he he was just passing

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Speaker 1: some gas. Yeah, So I said, okay, And of course,

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Speaker 1: you know what this is doing. Inside of my head,

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Speaker 1: I'm sting, thinking, oh my god, any credibility is just

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Speaker 1: sort of flown out the window. I'm sorry, but I

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Speaker 1: just don't know why ghosts would come here from the

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Speaker 1: other dimension and then tell us that they were passing gas. Wells, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like he. I mean that conversation took like

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Speaker 1: two successive dives, like like the second that your your

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Speaker 1: interview suddenly involves a third person from the spirit realm,

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Speaker 1: and then when when it's revealed that that that said

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Speaker 1: spirit has some sort of a a gas problem as well,

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Speaker 1: then yeah, a flatulent disposition. Yeah, yeah, it was. It

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Speaker 1: was problem, but it got worse. I then asked about

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Speaker 1: the spirit, of course, and I said, can you describe

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Speaker 1: the spirit and he said, well, he's he's a bit

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Speaker 1: of a prankster. He's like just Jack from Will and Grace,

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Speaker 1: you know number two I guess another red flag. And

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Speaker 1: then he went on to try to say that there

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Speaker 1: was a spirit around me and she was really sad,

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Speaker 1: and he guessed about seven eight different names that didn't

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Speaker 1: correlate with any of my UM ancestors. So I have

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Speaker 1: to say it was. It was disappointing. It was any

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Speaker 1: kind of insulting because he's like, check out my my

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Speaker 1: ghost is awesome, he's funny and all you just you

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Speaker 1: got some sad ghost hanging around to I know, he

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Speaker 1: kept making a point that she held at a maternal sadness,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, well, what does that mean? I

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Speaker 1: don't understand that, But I thought it was interesting just

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Speaker 1: in the context of there was a small part of

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Speaker 1: me that was like, you know, hey, what if this

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Speaker 1: guy really did have an in line with a ghost?

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Speaker 1: How cool would that be? You know? And it could?

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Speaker 1: You know. Part of me was like, yeah, please tell

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Speaker 1: me something. Let this farting goes piece, you know, give

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Speaker 1: me some sort of information that's useful other than you

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Speaker 1: know that he's gassy. Um so. But I mean I

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Speaker 1: did think to my self, we all sort of yearned

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Speaker 1: for this, for some sort of explanation about what happens

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Speaker 1: to us after we die, and we I don't think

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Speaker 1: we can never quite divorce ourselves from this notion that

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Speaker 1: once we cease to exist as a living human, human

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Speaker 1: breathing thing, that you know, we don't somehow come out

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Speaker 1: in some other form. I mean, I think that we

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Speaker 1: have this wish fulfillment, is what I'm trying to say. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: at least I do. I shouldn't say that everybody does,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's definitely ingrained in our culture. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: mean I remember, like, even like at a young age,

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Speaker 1: like there being a point where where, you know, I

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Speaker 1: was thinking, it's like, wow, what would it be like

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Speaker 1: if it's just like you know, when you when you die.

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Speaker 1: It's just that's there's nothing like what would nothing be like?

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Speaker 1: You know, And that's just that whole sort of mind

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Speaker 1: blowing area of trying to you know, to to realize,

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Speaker 1: you know, what that would be like. And then you

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Speaker 1: sort of grow bored with that, and you kind of think, well,

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Speaker 1: what would it be like if I, you know, became

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Speaker 1: a butterfly in the next life, you know, And that's

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Speaker 1: that's a little more exciting. So I choose to sort

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Speaker 1: of I kind of choose to to to throw all

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Speaker 1: my belief at areas that a little more interesting like that,

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Speaker 1: I guess. But yeah, yeah, because otherwise we there's nothing

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Speaker 1: right zip zero for and we don't have a context

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Speaker 1: for zero. So um, but that has not stopped scientists

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Speaker 1: throwing their minds at it. No, No, of course, it's

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Speaker 1: the human problem, right, And we're all sitting here saying

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Speaker 1: we've been we're here where you've been created. We're in

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Speaker 1: a universe that's been created or came into existence, is

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Speaker 1: probably the better way to say that. So what is

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Speaker 1: it all for nothing? Tell us science? Well, first, let's

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Speaker 1: back up a little bit and talk about some sort

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Speaker 1: of early scientific ramblings, if you will, having to do

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Speaker 1: with just the connection between But it basically comes down to,

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Speaker 1: like this spark that is who we are, like, does

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Speaker 1: it have any connection to anything outside ourselves? Right? That's

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Speaker 1: what a lot of it is. Because when you when

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Speaker 1: you're talking about a ghost, you're talking about a a

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Speaker 1: me that exists outside my body, that exists after my

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Speaker 1: body is gone. That there's something in my body, maybe

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Speaker 1: in permanent, but there's something permanent about me, right right,

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Speaker 1: your consciousness, I suppose. Yeah. So a lot of these uh,

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Speaker 1: a lot of the like scientific inquiries even have sort

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Speaker 1: of like you know, um, you know, poked at reality

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Speaker 1: a little to see if they can find those the

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Speaker 1: connecting threads, you know. Yeah. In fact, there's something called

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Speaker 1: the law of contagion, which is sort of magical thinking

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Speaker 1: that things that have once been in contact with each

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Speaker 1: other will continue to act on each other at a

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Speaker 1: distance even after physical contact has been severed. And this

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Speaker 1: is really um, this is what I was saying. It's

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Speaker 1: ingrained in our culture. I mean all sorts of um

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Speaker 1: cultures primitive and are our modern uh one. Now, if

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Speaker 1: you think about it, we all sit there and we

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Speaker 1: have these these thoughts connected to someone, whether or not

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Speaker 1: they're alive or dead, and this idea that we're all connected. Um.

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Speaker 1: Of course this is magical thinking. So bear with me.

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Speaker 1: I mean this and and more primitive culture might translate

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Speaker 1: to I have roberts tonil cuttings, and so I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: put it in a magical spell and use it against

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Speaker 1: them because I have something of his. Yeah, it's sympathetic

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Speaker 1: magic like some of the oldest, Like it's the whole thing,

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Speaker 1: Like I just cut my hair. I better hide this

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Speaker 1: stuff because of a sorcerer gets ahold of it. You know,

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Speaker 1: I'm totally boned. Yeah, I'm toastman. And so then there's

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Speaker 1: this this other idea that UM, that this person, this

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Speaker 1: connection could exist well beyond us, even in death. UM.

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Speaker 1: And so that law of contagion really helps us to

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Speaker 1: understand I think, why we have these notions of what

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Speaker 1: happens after death, and why we even have the burial

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Speaker 1: rituals that we have with our dead. Now. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you'd like to think that we bury people because you know,

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Speaker 1: we want to be nice and we'd like to remember them.

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Speaker 1: But some people would say that we do it because

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Speaker 1: we've got the connection to them, and if we just

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Speaker 1: were to throw them over a boat or throw them

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Speaker 1: in a ditch, they might come after us. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean you see this, uh, this law of contagion in

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Speaker 1: like like you know, different like heirlooms that are tied

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Speaker 1: to you know, the people that are still living there

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Speaker 1: dear you know, or people that have died. You see

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Speaker 1: it in the whole you know, the whole phrase like oh,

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Speaker 1: I'll never wash this hand again. You know that. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's like you've had a physical connection with say, you know,

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Speaker 1: some minor celebrity that you ran into it a bus stop.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how the celebrity will be taking the bush,

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Speaker 1: maybe the airport, Uh, you know, at the airport, You're like,

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Speaker 1: I'll never washed his hand again, because there's like the

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Speaker 1: society that there's a connection has been established, you know,

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Speaker 1: and uh, and and therefore the the object of that

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Speaker 1: connection must be maintained and honored so that that that

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Speaker 1: connection can still be there, right yeah, and the and

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Speaker 1: the best in the best world that connection with via talisman,

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Speaker 1: and the worst of worlds that would be uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: some sort of stink eye against you, right, I guess

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Speaker 1: going back to the Toni and clippings. So this is

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Speaker 1: definitely ingrained in us um and whether or not we

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Speaker 1: realize that we all have been sort of operating, at

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Speaker 1: least in the Western world under this context. And so

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Speaker 1: if you look back at what we used to think scientifically,

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Speaker 1: you can see how when spiritualism came up in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, people got really excited about that because they thought, oh, ectoplasm,

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Speaker 1: there's all there's all sorts of things that are representative

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Speaker 1: of from the beyond um, and this ectoplasm is gonna,

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Speaker 1: you know, prove it. And here's this medium and we're

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Speaker 1: all going to raise a table. Yeah. And she's totally

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Speaker 1: not just pulling out like damp cloths and one yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah is that from spook? Yeah yeah, Mary roach Yeah

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Speaker 1: gets into it a lot. Yeah, in some detail that

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Speaker 1: you would make you shut her a little bit. Some

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Speaker 1: of the antics that they pull. We'll leave it to

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Speaker 1: you your imagination. But so you can see science trying

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Speaker 1: to trying to grapple with this question. And in fact,

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Speaker 1: she even covers someone named Duncan McDougall, McDougal, excuse me,

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Speaker 1: his twenty one Grahams theory, Yeah, which is, here's this guy.

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Speaker 1: He's trying to substantiate the existence of a material soul

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Speaker 1: by weighing a corpse just after it ceases to live.

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Speaker 1: And um, you know he does it. He I think

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Speaker 1: he does like maybe eight corpses or something. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: it's like each one it's like this was hardly like pristine,

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Speaker 1: like you know, control environment. There's like nobody makes corpse

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Speaker 1: weighing scales for for this purpose. First that's the first problem.

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Speaker 1: And uh and it's like it was in a barn

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Speaker 1: or something, right, I mean it was yeah, yeah, And um,

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Speaker 1: and I think that the time of death wasn't always accurate,

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Speaker 1: so someone might have expired and then oops, yeah it

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Speaker 1: was ten minutes too late. Yeah, it's not like he

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Speaker 1: like weighed eight corpses and each one they were like,

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Speaker 1: you know, definite measurements of twenty one right, right, So

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Speaker 1: maybe one of those I think in marriages research that

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Speaker 1: maybe one of those wings was sort of meeting the

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Speaker 1: criteria of sort of but he's getting this and it

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Speaker 1: was like, hey, this what this body now always twenty

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Speaker 1: one grams less and the soul is gone. So therefore

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Speaker 1: the soul weighs twenty one grahams and just flew out

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Speaker 1: the window. That's right. And here we have evidence of

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Speaker 1: the soul. So you can see science and yesteryear reaching

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Speaker 1: for against some sort of idea that there's this existence,

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Speaker 1: there's this law of contagion extending itself beyond the realm

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Speaker 1: that we know. So what do we know for sure? Though? Well,

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Speaker 1: one thing we know for sure is the I mean

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Speaker 1: as much as we know anything for sure. But the

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Speaker 1: first law of thermodynamics, and that's the energy can neither

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Speaker 1: be created or destroyed. And and uh and and this

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Speaker 1: is another thing that Mary Rock goes into a little

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Speaker 1: bit in the book, and that's that if energy, energy

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Speaker 1: can can neither be created nor destroyed, well you can

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Speaker 1: if you really get some fine measurements, you can measure

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Speaker 1: the the energy of consciousness of thought. You know, Um,

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Speaker 1: and where does it go? Is it? Can it just

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Speaker 1: turn off? Or does it go somewhere? Yeah, that's the

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Speaker 1: fact that we that matter still how it contains energy, right,

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Speaker 1: energies matter, and I mean that just doesn't change after

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Speaker 1: you die as far as we know, right, we can't

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Speaker 1: necessarily track it. We don't know where it goes, and

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Speaker 1: that becomes the grand problem or the mysterium tremendum. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and unlike the people are looking at this, they're not

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Speaker 1: all saying like, oh, this definitely means that this tiny

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Speaker 1: little this tiny little bit of energy that was human

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Speaker 1: consciousness or or just the thoughts rambling around in the

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Speaker 1: you know, the in the the head meat up there

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Speaker 1: that it you know, shot up to heaven or we know,

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Speaker 1: went to the next life or jumped into a mouse

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Speaker 1: that was hanging out in the hallway. You know, it

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Speaker 1: might just be you know, diffusing into the you know,

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Speaker 1: the surrounding area or something of that nature. But still

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Speaker 1: it's interesting to think, uh, you know about it applying

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Speaker 1: the law of thermodynamics, the first law thermodynamics um to

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Speaker 1: you know, thoughts, and think, well that it can't end.

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Speaker 1: It has to go somewhere. That energy goes somewhere, you know.

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Speaker 1: So even if it's not a you know, a survival

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Speaker 1: of me or a survival of my thoughts, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of interesting to think of like the survival of that

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Speaker 1: energy in the same way that like the body that

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Speaker 1: you leave behind. I mean that if that is energy,

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Speaker 1: and you know, if it's planted in a garden, that

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Speaker 1: energy is going to transfer onto other organisms, right. Or

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Speaker 1: if you happen to leave your body to science and

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Speaker 1: you end up in a body farm right rotting away

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Speaker 1: for for for for data, um, then yeah, then you're well,

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Speaker 1: I guess it's the same thing. You're still going to

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Speaker 1: have matter transferred over to a little shred of grass

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Speaker 1: or to another cadaver. Yeah. Yeah, Which it's kind of

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Speaker 1: actually a lovely thing when you think about, or at

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Speaker 1: least in my mind, is that you're dispersing your manner. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's it's I like to think like when

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Speaker 1: of it, um, especially them being really like judgmental about

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Speaker 1: what other people are putting into their shopping I like

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Speaker 1: that I do that, Yeah, but I also try and

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Speaker 1: be judgmental about what what we're putting in our shopping cart.

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Speaker 1: And I think of I tend to think that like

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Speaker 1: I am going to build a new body out of

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Speaker 1: the things I buy at the store today. So I

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Speaker 1: want to build things that are not disgusting. You know.

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Speaker 1: It's like like, oh, I'm going to build a new

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Speaker 1: body out of some you know, some nice vegetables and

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Speaker 1: not cheetos and not cheetos and tombstone pizzas, you know,

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Speaker 1: tombstone Yeah, exactly. So it's kind of like I've built

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Speaker 1: my body out of these things this, out of these

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Speaker 1: you know, stored energy items, and now I'm done with

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Speaker 1: the body. So the body is going to become energy again.

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Speaker 1: So it's you know, it's kind of you know, you're

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Speaker 1: just borrowing everything, wow, from body farms to tombstone pizza. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: all right. So I think that when you think of

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Speaker 1: it this way, then you you understand matter that it's

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Speaker 1: not just a static thing. Right, So we obviously we

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Speaker 1: have no idea where it goes what it does when

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Speaker 1: you die, but plausibly it could disperse itself um and

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Speaker 1: then you have the problem of quantum physics, or you

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Speaker 1: could some would say you could have the solution with

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Speaker 1: quantum physics and multiverse. So with quantum physics, there's a

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Speaker 1: non nonlinear dimension of life, assuming that some of the

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Speaker 1: tenets of quantum physics are applicable and correct. Namely, the

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Speaker 1: observations can't be predicted absolutely. Okay, Okay, so I there's

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Speaker 1: the road number two. So what we're saying is that

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Speaker 1: there may be a range of possible observations with different

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Speaker 1: probability in an infinite number of universes where time and

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Speaker 1: events aren't behaving in the way that we experience them

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Speaker 1: or the way that we expect them to behave, which

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Speaker 1: is that another big question mark? Yeah, Well, that that's

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Speaker 1: the thing I think a lot of people begin to

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Speaker 1: sort of shut off when you when when when quantum

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Speaker 1: physics come up, and especially when like the idea of

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Speaker 1: of multiple universes come up, because it's you can almost

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Speaker 1: explain anything with quantum physics if you really want to,

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Speaker 1: and and it's actually it takes off a lot of

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Speaker 1: scientists out there too. We were both looking at sources

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Speaker 1: from this guy, John Horgan, and he discounted a lot

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Speaker 1: of some of the things we're talking about. When when

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Speaker 1: quantum is getting get involved as a quote scientific theology,

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Speaker 1: which it's kind of like we talked about in the

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Speaker 1: Tropic Principle Um podcast, is that is that you kind

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Speaker 1: of end up building some of the same like trying

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Speaker 1: to answer unanswerable things, except instead of throwing like folk

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Speaker 1: tale at it, and uh, you know, in in in

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Speaker 1: religion or or even you know, necessary or even philosophy,

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Speaker 1: you're you're throwing like scientific ideas and trying to build

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Speaker 1: something that can't really be proven. Man. And I guess

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Speaker 1: the problem with quantum physics is because h is that

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Speaker 1: it's sort of used as a placeholder sometimes. She said,

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Speaker 1: So it's like, well, okay, you'd have to have this condition,

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Speaker 1: this condition, this condition, and then the gel of all

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Speaker 1: this is is quantum physics. So which and I'm that's

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Speaker 1: not to say that you can't prove out some things

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Speaker 1: in quantum physics. You can obviously. Well, well, one interesting

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Speaker 1: thing is the idea of quantum entanglement, and that has

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Speaker 1: actually been observed. University of Geneva and Switzerland did that

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Speaker 1: earlier this year, I believe, at least the published earlier

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Speaker 1: this year. Okay, is this what Einstein called spooky matter

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Speaker 1: at a distance? Uh? Yeah, I believe. So, Like basically

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Speaker 1: it comes down to um. You have photons, tiny, you know,

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Speaker 1: little little particles, photons whose quantum properties are so intimdently

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Speaker 1: linked that one always knows what the other knows what

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Speaker 1: the other one is doing. They don't actually they're not conscious.

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Speaker 1: But but the idea is that when one one photons

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Speaker 1: quantum state is measured, the other photon changes. So it's

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Speaker 1: kind of an interesting you know, it kind of lines

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Speaker 1: up with a whole law of contation we're talking about,

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Speaker 1: all right, shape shifting. Yeah, And so that's an example

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Speaker 1: of something where they can say, hey, we've actually have

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Speaker 1: served this um you know, we we can you can

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Speaker 1: actually observe it with the human eye under correct um

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Speaker 1: you know conditions, right, But but not everything. There's a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of other stuff in quantum physics, especially if

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Speaker 1: you use quantum physics to build some sort of out

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Speaker 1: their theories. That is, it's a lot harder to to

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Speaker 1: build a case for Okay. So that's what we're saying

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Speaker 1: is that, yes, there are some ways that you can

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Speaker 1: apply it, but wholesale and not necessarily. But it's an

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Speaker 1: intriguing question, right because we just don't know the answers

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Speaker 1: to this. So that brings me to, okay, that the

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Speaker 1: whole thing about having a parallel universe that makes me

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Speaker 1: think about near death experiences and this sort of m

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Speaker 1: duplicity of self or not even duplicity, but this idea

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Speaker 1: of yourself being outside of yourself. Right, And if for

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Speaker 1: anybody who ever watched Unsolved Mysteries as a as a child, um,

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Speaker 1: this is like you know, the basic thing where it's

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Speaker 1: like the persons on the operating table or they're in

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Speaker 1: the emergency room and they have that sensation where they're

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Speaker 1: they're they're rising up from the table and then they're

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Speaker 1: looking down at themselves on the operating table. Do they

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Speaker 1: also see the tunnel and the light and yes, people

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Speaker 1: start coming to get them from from the afterlife. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: That maybe the same episode or multiple I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It's like Unsolved Mystery started out being about like crimes

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Speaker 1: and then like later it was just all like aliens

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Speaker 1: and and lost time and other world experiences. Scared me

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Speaker 1: a lot as a child. It definitely shaped you. Yes,

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Speaker 1: hence the preoccupation with our topic today. Yes, so what

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Speaker 1: I thought was interesting and this is uh. This is

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Speaker 1: from a article by Josh Clark about has science explained

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Speaker 1: life after death? He talks about r m intrusion rem intrusion,

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Speaker 1: which um is this conclusion that there is a disorder

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Speaker 1: in which a person's mind can wake up before the

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Speaker 1: body does, and hallucinations occur during that time, including the

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Speaker 1: feeling like you're detached from your body. And so the

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Speaker 1: thought is that these intrusions are triggered by traumatic events

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Speaker 1: like cardiac arrest, and it occurs in the brainstem, where

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Speaker 1: this intrusion can still occur even though your higher brain

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Speaker 1: may be occupied or may even be shutting down. And

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Speaker 1: so I think this is interesting is that it came

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Speaker 1: out of a study from the University of Kentucky and

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Speaker 1: they're basically saying, here, we've got it. We've got a

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Speaker 1: solution to this whole near death experience. It may not

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Speaker 1: just be you, you know, traveling outside of your body

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Speaker 1: astually because you know you've experienced or you you are

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Speaker 1: about to experience death. So you know, we we can

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Speaker 1: kind of poke holes in that this presentation is brought

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Speaker 1: to you by Intel sponsors of Tomorrow, and we know

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Speaker 1: it's so important to scientists that they're actually uh conducting

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Speaker 1: even more studies and something that just came out in

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Speaker 1: the Street Journal or pretty recently did oh this is

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Speaker 1: the one with the pictures, right, yeah, yeah, So you

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Speaker 1: know about this. Tell me a little bit more. Well,

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Speaker 1: the idea is basically, like I said, as we've all

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Speaker 1: seen unsolved mysteries the Purse or any number of paranormal

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Speaker 1: um you know, documentary type shows. The ideas of the

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Speaker 1: person is raising up off the table and they're seeing

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Speaker 1: themselves from above. So what if you were to you know,

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Speaker 1: put a little picture, a little photograph, or or it's

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Speaker 1: like even you could even do it with like a

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Speaker 1: like a playing card, like is this your card, sir?

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Speaker 1: You know, lay it next to the person's head, and

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Speaker 1: then after they've had the the out of body experience,

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Speaker 1: say what card did you see next to your head

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Speaker 1: laying on the table. And if they're like, what are

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Speaker 1: you talking about? I didn't see a card, then you

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Speaker 1: would know that nothing happened, or if they couldn't guess

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Speaker 1: the correct card. Okay, So these are researchers who have

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Speaker 1: suspended pictures face up from the ceiling in in emergency

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Speaker 1: care areas to test whether or not patients who are

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Speaker 1: brought back to life after cardiac arrest are able to

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Speaker 1: see these pictures or these photos which okay, so which

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Speaker 1: automatically I start to think, like what sort of pictures

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Speaker 1: are they even using, like you said, it could be

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Speaker 1: a playing card. I mean, the dark side of me

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Speaker 1: wants to think that there are pictures of clowns just

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Speaker 1: to scare them. I was picturing horses for some reason, horses,

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Speaker 1: but maybe like kind of like like you know, snarling horses.

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Speaker 1: Certain they don't really snarl, but you know where there

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Speaker 1: was dripping, Yeah, where their lips pull back and they're

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Speaker 1: all like teeth for horsemen of the apocalypse ish yeah, okay, alright,

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Speaker 1: so we both have like these really snugly ideas of

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Speaker 1: what the researchers should put in, what it needs to

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Speaker 1: be memorable, Like you don't want it to be like

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Speaker 1: there's a picture of some kid. I guess I thought

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Speaker 1: one of the surgeons just takes that out when he's

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Speaker 1: working to inspire it. Well, see, that's why I thought

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Speaker 1: the clowns would be really funny, because if you're having

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Speaker 1: out of body experiencing, you indeed can't see the photos.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's the clowns. Yeah, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: which actually that's it's kind of awful. It's sort of mean, Well,

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Speaker 1: unless they really love clowns, and it would be like

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Speaker 1: what am I? I should go back to my body.

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Speaker 1: They are clowns in this life where I'm going there,

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Speaker 1: there may be no clowns, or there may be lots

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Speaker 1: of clowns. It depends on your your definitions of the

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Speaker 1: afterlife goodness the clown I have to say, that's it's

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Speaker 1: not my it's not my idea of a perfect afterlife.

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Speaker 1: I think, isn't it one of the afterlives in Buddhism,

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Speaker 1: Like there's a clowns. Yes, yes, yes, you you reach

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Speaker 1: clown status. I think. Yeah. But uh, what I think

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Speaker 1: is really cool about the study is that we should

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Speaker 1: find out what they've learned round March April or so.

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Speaker 1: That should be publishing, So should be fascinating. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: Susan Blackmore's who makes it her job to study this stuff.

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Speaker 1: She basically has said that she thinks that near death

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Speaker 1: experience is a particularly dramatic consequence of our cognitive tendency

427
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,880
Speaker 1: to construct models of ourselves as though observed from the outside. Okay,

428
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 1: so this is like I'm standing at the train station

429
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 1: waiting on the train and I can't help but imagine

430
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 1: what other people are seeing exactly. Yeah, Okay, so it's

431
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,399
Speaker 1: not just me that right, no, no, no, right, like

432
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: you have that you know in your database, you've you've

433
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 1: got all these images built up, so you can obviously

434
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:20,880
Speaker 1: imagine yourself, um looking at yourself and that's that. This

435
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 1: is just really the consequence of that, so that near

436
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 1: death experience isn't necessarily something that people are actually experiencing.

437
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,159
Speaker 1: And to boot, there's something called ketamine, which is a

438
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 1: drug that can induce the same sort of sensations that

439
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 1: you get. So another piece of evidence to sit there

440
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,439
Speaker 1: and say, Okay, a near death experience really interesting, but

441
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 1: it may not be what we think it is in

442
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 1: terms of linking uh, the afterlife to our own experiences

443
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,679
Speaker 1: here in north because they can they can produce similar

444
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 1: effects with a drug artificially. Yeah, exactly right, So which

445
00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 1: begs the question can our consciousness ext this apart from

446
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: the brain? Yeah? This is uh, this is one that

447
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 1: I that gets a lot of play just you know

448
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 1: throughout like science fiction and fantasy. I think like the

449
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: idea of digitized consciousness, as you know, comes up a lot,

450
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: the idea that that I can like maybe make a

451
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 1: like a digital copy of my brain and it could

452
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 1: it exists somewhere and think but it's it gets really

453
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 1: complicated when you when you start wondering about that. For starters,

454
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 1: we're not really sure. We're have a really hard time

455
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 1: to finding consciousness anyway. So the idea of like can

456
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 1: we replicate something that we don't even we don't even

457
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 1: really know what it is, it's it gets kind of difficult,

458
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,400
Speaker 1: Like I do you have to like create a machine

459
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: that has all these pieces and then fools itself into

460
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,239
Speaker 1: thinking that it has free will, and then just you know,

461
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 1: it's just it gets really really muddy, really fast. Yeah,

462
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: And I can't think about it um from any perspective

463
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,719
Speaker 1: other than the biological structures. So you've got your your

464
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 1: nerve of cells, and you've got your firing of neurons,

465
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: and you've got your synaptic nectivity. So I can't imagine

466
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 1: that in some sort of disembodied state, right, and then

467
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: our our heads too, I mean, and it's it's it's

468
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 1: easy to, in a very idealistic way, say say I

469
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 1: want you know, I want me, you know, my mind

470
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 1: to you know, exist in a machine somewhere, But then

471
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 1: you start thinking like all the different, weird and often

472
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: unpleasant things that make our mind what it is. And again,

473
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 1: how they're all tied to biology and uh and and

474
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: and like the whole like sort of like you're throwing

475
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 1: the ego in there too, and you have all these

476
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: sort of these weird forces kind of pulling at each other,

477
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: and it's like, why would you even want to replicate that?

478
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: Why not build something better? You know? Yeah? I agree,

479
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: And and you say the ego, and it makes me

480
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 1: think about Buddhism and and and all comes razor um

481
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 1: and Buddhism just says, well, self is an illusion, so

482
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 1: why do you think it could replicate itself outside of

483
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 1: self essentially? Or I'm saying that actually Buddhists and saying that,

484
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of times what we think

485
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 1: of another idea that you encounter in and I think

486
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:07,640
Speaker 1: some in Buddhism, but also a lot of like New

487
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: Age kind of stuff where people talk about like what

488
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 1: we think of as self isn't really self. It's like

489
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 1: there's us, and then there's this kind of like fake

490
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: you that you kind of create that's kind of mashed

491
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 1: together out of ego and everything. It's kind of lumped

492
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: in there as well. So and again you're kind of

493
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 1: so you're kind of like lying to yourself constantly about

494
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 1: who you are and like marching around this little ego

495
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,439
Speaker 1: puppet in your head. Yeah, and if you apply the

496
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 1: Marxist theory to that, then you're just a product that's

497
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: been signified. I know it's not even you didn't really

498
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: who cares about your consciousness? Go make us something? But

499
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that that people haven't tried to actually

500
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 1: look into our consciousness existing outside of our brain. You've

501
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,640
Speaker 1: got something called ORC theory, which is orchestrated objective reduction.

502
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 1: So it's O r C A yes, or I guess

503
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 1: you could say ORCH like work too. But you've got

504
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: sir Roger Penrose and Stuart hammer Off and they're basically

505
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 1: saying that consciousness is a sequence of quantum computations inside

506
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 1: brain neurons, and the idea is that each neuron isn't

507
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: just flipping a switch, but actually a complex computer of

508
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 1: its own. I'm not going to pretend to be uninterestand

509
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 1: I mean, my brain is hanging on a thread with

510
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: this one. But I did find this really cool website

511
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 1: called edge dot org and it's basically a bunch of

512
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: missive missives between scientists theorists, and they're all batting about

513
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: their own ideas and they're taking heat and they're giving

514
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: it back. And I dig that so um with Stuart

515
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: hammer offf he actually posted something as a rebuttal to

516
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 1: Lee Smullen and Stuart Kaufman and he about ORC. He

517
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 1: has said, the two main points I want to make

518
00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 1: is the flow of time is a future feature of

519
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: cons aousness, and outside of consciousness, there may not be

520
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: a flow of time. Okay, consciousness provides the clock, alright, Okay,

521
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: so that's that's interesting. And then the second thing is

522
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: that the or OR model suggests consciousness is a sequence

523
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 1: of self organizing rearrangements of space time geometry at the

524
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 1: level of quantum spin networks. Well, that makes perfect sense.

525
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: That's what I was thinking. I was just thinking that

526
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: the other day. You know. No, but that's that's uh yeah,

527
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,199
Speaker 1: that's really complicated. Yeah yeah. So I just put that

528
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 1: out there because people are thinking about this and they're

529
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: writing down their thoughts about it, about the quantum spin networks.

530
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: And that made me go to Freeman Dyson, who is

531
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 1: a physicist and he was contributed to all different fields.

532
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he seems to have had his hands and

533
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: just about everything I mean from you from dreaming up

534
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: things like the Dyson's sphere to to you know, his

535
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: involvement with the with Theryan project. If the list goes on,

536
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: he's amazing, amazing guy. Yeah, and he's really an optimist

537
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: because he feels like the Earth first of all, I

538
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 1: should say, rather the universe is going to be expanding

539
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: at a pretty steady rate. So he's not someone who

540
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: thinks that, you know, it's all going to end very soon.

541
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: That's that's the first deal with him. So he likes

542
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: to imagine us as um as beings who can adjust

543
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 1: to that and who can actually start to conserve energy.

544
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: And in an article and with Slate he was actually asked,

545
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: you know, what could our descendants possibly look like a

546
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: trillion years from now, when the stars have disappeared and

547
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: the universe is dark and freezing and so diffuse, that

548
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: is practically empty. And ever the optimist, he finds like

549
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: a like a bright way of looking at this, at

550
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: our existence in this universe of death. Yes, yes, he says,

551
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: the most plausible answer is that conscious life will take

552
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 1: the form of interstellar dust clouds. So for him, consciousness

553
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: is just a bunch of charged particles hanging out in

554
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: a dust cloud, and he actually thinks that there's that

555
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: our consciousness is will merge into one great mind and

556
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: actually be able to transcend this locality of where we

557
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: are now. That's interesting. That kind of flows back into

558
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: some of the anthropic principle theories that were being thrown around,

559
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: you know, about the the idea that once once consciousness

560
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: comes into being, it can't really be stopped and will

561
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: eventually become like Godlike, Oh, that's right. Is that the

562
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: final Anthropic's final anthropic? Yeah? Yeah, And that's that was

563
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: one that always kind of through me because I was thinking, well,

564
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: was the matrix? What are you talking about? Is this

565
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: our intelligence is being construed as a computer program. But

566
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 1: basically he's thinking that will become these organisms that are

567
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: free floating and and just hanging out as clouds. Which

568
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: but that that would be a situation where you would

569
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 1: have consciousness existing without a physical body in a way,

570
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 1: kind of a ghost. I guess if you want to

571
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: go there, ghost clouds, ghost clouds. Yeah, I like it,

572
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: um chilling years from now check it out? Yeah, so

573
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: can can has science explained life after death? No? Not really? Sorry,

574
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 1: If you were looking for a definite answer on that,

575
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: then we're not gonna be able to deliver it at

576
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: this time. But if you're interested about whether or not

577
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: scientists has uh debunked some myths about ghosts, all the

578
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: information is available. So if you know about e v

579
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 1: P the voice recordings, yeah, voices and all that. Yeah,

580
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: Jonathan and Chris a tech stuff did a really cool

581
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: podcast on ghostbusting technology. Yeah, and they go into all

582
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: of this. So that's that's definitely worth checking out. Yeh ectoplasm,

583
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: ray guns or and such. And of course be sure

584
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: to check out Jeff Clark's article Has Science Explained Life

585
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: After Death? Which you know, just a two pager, but

586
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: Josh covers a some of the ground that we we

587
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: cover in this and does it in a nice concise manner.

588
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: To find Josh in articles. Yes, I think that's a

589
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: wrap for science in the Afterlife? All right, check us

590
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 1: out next week. And if you haven't already read Josh

591
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: Clark's article Has Science Explained Life after Death? Or? Do

592
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: parallel universes really exist? Why don't you take a look

593
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: see at them at how stuff works dot com. The

594
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot Com I phone app is coming soon.

595
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: Get access to our content in a new way. Articles, videos,

596
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,479
Speaker 1: and more all on the go. Check out the latest

597
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 1: podcast and blog post, and see what we're saying on

598
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: Facebook and Twitter. Coming soon to iTunes,