1 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and 2 00:01:12,479 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: we have a quick update. 3 00:01:13,839 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something 4 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,439 Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it 5 00:01:18,479 --> 00:01:21,719 Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we 6 00:01:21,839 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we 7 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 2: didn't remember. 8 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so 9 00:01:28,199 --> 00:01:30,839 Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to 10 00:01:30,919 --> 00:01:33,439 Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping 11 00:01:33,559 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most 12 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to 13 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: gain value from them. 14 00:01:41,759 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy 15 00:01:45,359 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love. 16 00:01:48,639 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 3: Just as much. 17 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,679 Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked, 18 00:01:52,799 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts. 19 00:01:55,359 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called 20 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:03,559 Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life, 21 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You 22 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website dot com. 23 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile, 24 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable 25 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers, 26 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should 27 00:02:27,079 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist column 28 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: for The Atlantic. 29 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Winch. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and 30 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 3: I write the Dear Guy Callum for Ted. And this 31 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 3: is Dear Therapists. This week, we'll talk to a mother 32 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 3: trying to forge a more open line of communication with 33 00:02:42,399 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 3: her adult children after years of turmoil. 34 00:02:45,079 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 4: I don't want to be a wedge between him and 35 00:02:46,959 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 4: his wife. I want them to figure it out. And 36 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 4: so I think part of what's been holding me back 37 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 4: is saying I don't want to be in charge of 38 00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 4: my children making personal decisions on such a huge scale 39 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:02,719 Speaker 4: because of a comment I might have made. I want 40 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 4: them to make the decisions based on how they feel 41 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 4: about things and where you know where their heart is 42 00:03:08,519 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 4: at about it. 43 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process. 44 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 3: Deotherapists is for informational purposes only, does not constitute medical advice, 45 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 3: and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, 46 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 3: or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental 47 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 3: health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions 48 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 3: you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter, 49 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 3: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in Potter 50 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 3: and full, and we may edit it for length and 51 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 3: or clarity. 52 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: Hey guy, Hi Laurie, So I have a confession to make. 53 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: I actually took a peek at this week's letter. 54 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 3: Oh very good. Then we can get going all right, 55 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:56,119 Speaker 3: deo therapists. My son has been married for five years. 56 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 3: I have heard from my daughter that he wants children, 57 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 3: but his wife does not. I would like grandchildren, but 58 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:04,279 Speaker 3: I feel it's not my place to ask them to 59 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 3: have children for me. However, I would like to talk 60 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 3: to him about it, but I am afraid to do so. Also, 61 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 3: if he wants children and she doesn't, what should he do. 62 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 3: I know they are seeing a counselor, but I don't 63 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 3: want to get involved. My daughter seems to think that 64 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 3: he cannot stand up to her. Signed Maria. 65 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: You know what comes to mind when I see that 66 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: letter is that as a parent. But I think there's 67 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: always that line of how much can I get involved? 68 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,119 Speaker 1: Where I'm helping? And where is that line? That I 69 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: cross over to where I'm being intrusive. 70 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 3: And a much of what she's saying seems secondhand from 71 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 3: the daughter. She hasn't had the conversation directly, so I 72 00:04:47,840 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 3: think she's been really respectful in terms of not crossing 73 00:04:50,799 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 3: the boundary, but it is leaving her a bit in 74 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 3: the dark and then a bit frustrated about, well, how 75 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 3: do I have this conversation without stepping on toes potentially. 76 00:05:00,039 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think the other question is when she 77 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: thinks about her son having kids, is it because she 78 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: wants grandkids or is it that he had talked about 79 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: wanting to have kids one day and she had this 80 00:05:14,039 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: idea of him with that kind of life. And there's 81 00:05:17,840 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: a loss there, the loss of my son would make 82 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: a great father. And maybe he's making this compromise for 83 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,239 Speaker 1: his wife, but he's going to lose out on this 84 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,919 Speaker 1: experience that I, as a parent, found so gratifying, and 85 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 1: I'm sad that my son won't have that because it 86 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:33,559 Speaker 1: was a very rich part of my life. 87 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 3: And it's also very possible that she has friends in 88 00:05:37,159 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 3: an age group who are grandparents now and they're telling her, oh, 89 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,239 Speaker 3: my goodness, you can't imagine how great. This is so 90 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 3: it's possible that she's also hearing rave reviews about grandparenting 91 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 3: and eager to have the experience herself. 92 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: Well, we need to get some more information from her, 93 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: so let's go talk to her. 94 00:05:55,440 --> 00:06:01,919 Speaker 3: Yes, you're listening to deotherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back 95 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 3: after a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy 96 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 3: Winch and this is THEO Therapist. 97 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 4: Hi Maria, Hi, how are you good? 98 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 5: Thank you for coming on the show. 99 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 3: Welcome, welcome, thank you. 100 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 4: I'm a little bit nervous, but I'm happy to be here. 101 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 5: Good. 102 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: So we read your letter and we're wondering if you 103 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 1: can tell us a little bit more about your relationship 104 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: with your son. 105 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 4: Well, he's forty years old. He got married about five 106 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 4: or six years ago. He seems pretty happy in his relationship. 107 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 4: I was afraid to ask him about children because I 108 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 4: feel like it's none of my business. But enough time 109 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 4: has gone by that I thought maybe I should say, 110 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 4: what are your feelings about having children? And I was 111 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 4: too nervous to do that, so I talked to my 112 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 4: daughter about it, and she said that he would like them, 113 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 4: but his wife would not, So I was a little 114 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 4: bit stymied about that, And so it's not my decision 115 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 4: on how people choose or not choose to have children, 116 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:25,119 Speaker 4: especially my own children, but I kind of wish they would. 117 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 4: We've been pretty close all our lives, but I just 118 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 4: feel like it's so personal. I've been afraid to sort 119 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 4: of find out what's going on. 120 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 3: So you say you've been pretty close all your lives, 121 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 3: but do you not broach really personal topics with one another? 122 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 3: Is it not something you talk to him about? 123 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 4: You know? I think you're right, it is kind of 124 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 4: hard to ask a super personal question like that. I 125 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 4: think as time goes by, I'm trying to be a 126 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 4: little more open minded about that sort of thing so 127 00:07:55,800 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 4: I can ask more personal questions. He did mention a 128 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 4: couple years ago that he and his wife were going 129 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 4: through canseling. He didn't want to say what it was about. 130 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 4: He just said, I want you to know we're fine, 131 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 4: but I just wanted to let you know we're doing that. 132 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: Maria, How did that come up? In what context? Did 133 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: he bring that up with you? 134 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 4: I think he wanted me to know for some reason, 135 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 4: because I never asked him. He just brought it up 136 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 4: during a phone conversation, and I was a little surprised, 137 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 4: but I thought, well, maybe it's a good thing. People 138 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,959 Speaker 4: do need to talk about their issues and what's going on. 139 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 4: And I know my husband and I tried to do 140 00:08:35,839 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 4: that a couple of times and we didn't really get 141 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 4: very far with it, so I was happy to hear 142 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 4: that he was doing that. 143 00:08:42,680 --> 00:08:44,559 Speaker 3: Can I ask him a real why do you think 144 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 3: he mentioned it to you? Because the way you're saying 145 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 3: he mentioned it was kind of FYI, we're going to counseling. 146 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 3: Everything's fine, don't worry, but just thought you should know, 147 00:08:55,599 --> 00:08:57,839 Speaker 3: Which is a kind of strange way to bring that 148 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 3: up because it brings up so many questions for you. 149 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 3: Why do you think he told you about it? 150 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:09,599 Speaker 4: Maybe he was trying to establish some sort of conversation 151 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 4: with me, but he really didn't want to get into 152 00:09:12,079 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 4: the particulars about it, So maybe it was just a 153 00:09:15,319 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 4: way for him being more open about who he is. 154 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 3: You're saying that he didn't want to get into the 155 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 3: particulars of it. Did he beyond what you just told us, 156 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 3: Did he indicate that in some way or did you 157 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 3: ask any question that was rebuffed? Or do you think 158 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 3: he might be making an assumption that he didn't. 159 00:09:33,599 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 4: Oh, well, he just said, I just wanted to let 160 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,079 Speaker 4: you know about it, and that's all I'm going to 161 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 4: say about it. But I want you to know everything's fine. 162 00:09:42,119 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 3: Okay, So you took that as and don't ask me 163 00:09:44,359 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 3: any further questions. 164 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:51,359 Speaker 4: Right, I did. His wife is a very strong personality. 165 00:09:52,319 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 4: I like her a lot. I think she has a 166 00:09:53,879 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 4: lot of spunk, but she's very opinionated and she's very 167 00:09:59,119 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 4: sure about who she is and her ideas and comments. 168 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 4: And I'm just wondering if she's controlling him through this decision. 169 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 4: I heard they did want to have children before they 170 00:10:18,359 --> 00:10:21,599 Speaker 4: got married, or it was a possibility, but she's changed 171 00:10:21,599 --> 00:10:22,559 Speaker 4: her mind since then. 172 00:10:23,599 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: Where did you hear that information that they did want 173 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,119 Speaker 1: to have children? Is this all being funneled through your daughter? 174 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 4: Yes, it was originally being funneled through my daughter. I subsequently, 175 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 4: since I wrote to you, I did speak with him 176 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 4: and I finally cut up the courage to say, well, 177 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,239 Speaker 4: you know what, what have you decided about having children? 178 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 4: I mean I mentioned it a couple of times and 179 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 4: he said, well, Susan doesn't want to have any. And 180 00:10:50,879 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 4: I really had to deal with that in my head, 181 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 4: and I thought that maybe that would be okay. And 182 00:10:58,879 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 4: I really love her, and so I worry about him 183 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 4: speaking up for himself in the relationship so that he 184 00:11:07,079 --> 00:11:10,959 Speaker 4: can get what he wants out of relationship, because I've 185 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 4: been going through some counseling myself, and I think we 186 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 4: pick up on our parents' patterns about how we relate 187 00:11:19,079 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 4: and our birth family to then our children in that family, 188 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,359 Speaker 4: they pick up on our ways of communicating with each other. 189 00:11:26,839 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 4: And I think that he is maybe picking up on me. 190 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 4: I was sort of repressed and I wasn't maybe pushing 191 00:11:35,079 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 4: too hard in my relationship with my husband. So I 192 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 4: just worry that he might be doing the same thing. 193 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,039 Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit more about your 194 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: relationship with your husband. You said that you went to counseling. 195 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: Are you still married and were you ever able to 196 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,559 Speaker 1: find more of your voice in that relationship? 197 00:11:56,319 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 4: Not really. There's another component to this. My husband passed 198 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,879 Speaker 4: away not quite a year ago, and that's one of 199 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 4: the reasons why I'm going through this counseling, and in 200 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 4: dealing with going through the counseling and understanding my relationship 201 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 4: with him, I'm beginning to understand how I was willing 202 00:12:20,599 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 4: to have him be sort of like the final arbitrator 203 00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 4: on quite a few things. And so I'm wondering if 204 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,199 Speaker 4: my son has picked up on my pattern and is 205 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 4: doing this in the same way with his wife. 206 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: What were some of the things where you felt like 207 00:12:40,119 --> 00:12:44,159 Speaker 1: he was the arbitrator of certain decisions in your marriage. 208 00:12:44,599 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 4: How much money we would spend on things he thought 209 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 4: maybe I should not eat too much at the dinner table, 210 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 4: or we should sell the house. I wasn't ready to 211 00:12:53,879 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 4: sell the house, but you know, it worked out. I 212 00:12:56,680 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 4: grew up in a different state, and then we moved, 213 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:01,839 Speaker 4: and he wanted to make that move, which I didn't 214 00:13:01,879 --> 00:13:04,719 Speaker 4: want to do. I think we argued a lot, and 215 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 4: we never got anywhere with our arguing because even though 216 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 4: I would try to whose communication skills and give eye messages, 217 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 4: it didn't really work very well with him because he 218 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 4: would sort of play the silent game, and he wasn't 219 00:13:20,319 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 4: good at apologizing and things like that. So I think 220 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 4: our children pick up on those patterns of communication. 221 00:13:28,839 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 3: Maria, I'm so sorry for your loss. He passed away recently. 222 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,119 Speaker 3: I'm so sorry for that. But it sounds like that 223 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 3: during the time that you were together still and really 224 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 3: even since he's passed and you've been in therapy and 225 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 3: kind of looking at things, and that you're on this 226 00:13:46,119 --> 00:13:49,439 Speaker 3: path of trying to find your voice. Yes, And I'm 227 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 3: wondering whether that's a path you feel you're on with 228 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 3: your son as well, and if you are where on 229 00:13:55,599 --> 00:13:58,879 Speaker 3: that path you might be positioned at this moment because 230 00:13:58,879 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 3: it sounded like with your son you're still quite hesitant 231 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,599 Speaker 3: to voice your opinion or even to ask questions when 232 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 3: he's conveying personal information like you hear it. You don't 233 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 3: ask follow ups because you're trying to be respectful, but 234 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 3: in that way, you haven't expressed your voice. Do you 235 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:16,519 Speaker 3: have a thought about that? 236 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 4: I agree with you, it's a hard thing to talk 237 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 4: about these feelings. 238 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 3: Are you aware of the parallel? 239 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 4: No, you just brought it up, and I can see 240 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 4: that now as you're bringing it up. 241 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:34,479 Speaker 1: And usually when we're afraid to speak up, there's a 242 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: reason we have in our mind, like if I speak up, 243 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: this will happen. And I don't know what that reason was. 244 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: With your husband, you know, if I tell him how 245 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: I feel about this, it'll end in a big argument 246 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: or he'll get his way anyway or whatever you thought. 247 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: What is the fear when you think about bringing something 248 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:57,359 Speaker 1: up with your son. 249 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 4: That's a good question. 250 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: In the worst case scenario, what might happen. 251 00:15:06,879 --> 00:15:10,519 Speaker 4: Well, in the worst case scenario, he might say it's 252 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 4: none of your business. I mean that's I can do 253 00:15:13,119 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 4: it with that. Or he might say, well, it's not 254 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,479 Speaker 4: going to happen, or I don't want to tell you. 255 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 4: So I know, it seems like I'm afraid of nothing. 256 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 3: Well, actually, it sounds like you're afraid that by talking 257 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 3: to him about these things, he will think that you're 258 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 3: trying to cause a wedge between him and his wife, 259 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 3: and he will respond to that and be upset with 260 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:39,279 Speaker 3: you about that. 261 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 4: Yes, I totally agree. I don't want to be a 262 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 4: wedge between him and his wife. I want them to 263 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,119 Speaker 4: figure it out. And so I think part of what's 264 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 4: been holding me back is saying, if I bring this 265 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,399 Speaker 4: up and I tell him you have rights in this marriage, 266 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 4: what does that say about whether they'll stay together or not? 267 00:16:01,879 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 4: And I don't want to be the person that sets 268 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 4: that off. My dad used to comment on on one 269 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 4: of my brother's girlfriends, and I think that my brother 270 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 4: married somebody because of my dad's opinion. And I don't 271 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 4: want to be in charge of my children making personal 272 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 4: decisions on such a huge scale because of a comment 273 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 4: I might have made. I want them to make the 274 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 4: decisions based on how they feel about things and where 275 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 4: you know where their heart is at about it. 276 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: Do you have the same fear about talking to your 277 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: daughter about personal things like this? I don't know if 278 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,999 Speaker 1: she's married, and how old is she? 279 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 4: She's thirty eight, okay? 280 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 5: And is she in a relationship? Is she married? 281 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: And have you talked to her when you've had opinions 282 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: about these kinds of things with her? 283 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 4: She's not married. She's been in an on and off 284 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 4: relationship that I don't think is the best relationship for 285 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 4: her because I think that he might not treat her 286 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 4: as nicely as I would like him to treat her. 287 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 4: We've talked about it, but I think she just knows 288 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 4: that's what I say, and then she does what she wants. 289 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 4: She has been in and out of this relationship with 290 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 4: this same person, and I don't want to denegrate him 291 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 4: because they break up and then they get back together again. 292 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 4: And if I were to say all these negative comments 293 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,999 Speaker 4: about him, she would remember that, and maybe that's a 294 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 4: bad thing for me to be putting in her head 295 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 4: because then she remembers mom as being someone who didn't 296 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 4: approve of her and her boyfriend. 297 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: So I think that there's a difference between saying to 298 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: your daughter, I don't like this guy, or saying to 299 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 1: your son, I think your wife is controlling you and 300 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 1: really having a conversation that's about the relationship that you 301 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: have with each of your children, which is I love you, 302 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 1: and I'm wondering if this is making you happy. I'm 303 00:18:06,879 --> 00:18:09,199 Speaker 1: wondering how you feel about this When she breaks up 304 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: with the boyfriend again, you know, what is this like 305 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: for you? It seems like you're suffering a lot, which 306 00:18:15,639 --> 00:18:18,999 Speaker 1: is different from I don't like him. It's how is 307 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,880 Speaker 1: this making you feel? And I think the same thing 308 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 1: with your son. There's a difference between your sister says 309 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: that you want to have kids and your wife doesn't, 310 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: and I'm concerned about that versus well, how do you 311 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: feel about not being a father. 312 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:37,719 Speaker 4: I like to think that I'm good at communicating and 313 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 4: asking questions and talking to my children, but I think 314 00:18:40,639 --> 00:18:44,239 Speaker 4: when it comes to these serious issues, I have a 315 00:18:44,439 --> 00:18:51,759 Speaker 4: difficult time bringing up these problems or issues in a 316 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 4: way that's loving and non judgmental. 317 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 3: The way you speak about the relationship with your son, 318 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,039 Speaker 3: it sounds as if there's have been incidents in the 319 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 3: past where you have voiced an opinion and he has 320 00:19:06,159 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 3: bristled at it or found it intrusive in some way. 321 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:10,959 Speaker 3: Is that the case. 322 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 4: Yes, I've tried to have some conversations just recently and 323 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 4: I get comments like, oh, you're repeating yourself. I've already 324 00:19:23,879 --> 00:19:24,959 Speaker 4: heard this before. 325 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 3: What was the conversation about? 326 00:19:27,439 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 4: What it was about? Family communication? We used to have 327 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 4: these family meetings and I would try to establish some 328 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 4: sort of ground rules and how we were going to 329 00:19:40,399 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 4: talk about things if we had arguments and that sort 330 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 4: of thing, and I kind of got these messages of 331 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,360 Speaker 4: why are we doing this? Just recently, when we were 332 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 4: trying to talk about something, I did get some negative 333 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 4: feedback and you know, you need to work on you, 334 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 4: not on us. And I said, well, I'm not trying 335 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:01,719 Speaker 4: to work on you so much as I'm trying to 336 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 4: understand how we communicate with each other so that I 337 00:20:06,439 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 4: can talk to you about things. 338 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 5: Did that comment come from your daughter or your son? 339 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,959 Speaker 4: That came from my daughter? Because we were having a 340 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:18,199 Speaker 4: three way family meeting. 341 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 1: It sounds like your son and daughter confide in each other. Yeah, 342 00:20:25,399 --> 00:20:28,239 Speaker 1: because it was through your daughter that you heard this 343 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: information that your son wanted children and his wife didn't 344 00:20:32,879 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: end it. 345 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 5: In her mind. 346 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,959 Speaker 1: He has a hard time standing up to her, and 347 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 1: so they have some communication going on. 348 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 4: Yes, they do. They communicate quite a bit, which I'm 349 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 4: happy for, and they support each other quite a. 350 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 5: Bit before this. 351 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: When you wanted to bring something up to them when 352 00:20:52,679 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: they were younger, were they receptive to that? 353 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 4: I think so. Maybe I was a little bit, you know, 354 00:21:01,439 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 4: crying up with chores and things like that. I'd say, 355 00:21:03,919 --> 00:21:05,759 Speaker 4: if you think you have a hard time, you know, 356 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:07,759 Speaker 4: I'll take you to Tiawana and then you'll see what 357 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,879 Speaker 4: a hard time is like. So maybe when there were issues, 358 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 4: instead of listening and giving them empathetic feedback, it was 359 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:19,519 Speaker 4: more like I grew up this way and so I 360 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,479 Speaker 4: don't know why you're complaining. Maybe I wasn't as sympathetic 361 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 4: as I could have been when they were growing up. 362 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 3: Maria. Have things changed in the dynamic between you and 363 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 3: your son and daughter since your husband died? How did 364 00:21:33,919 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 3: they take his passing and did that change anything for 365 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 3: the three of you. 366 00:21:40,679 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 4: I think so. I think that they thought their dad 367 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:49,199 Speaker 4: was very authoritarian and rigid in many ways. And I 368 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 4: think the three of us are trying to work on issues, 369 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 4: whereas I think if my husband were still alive, we 370 00:21:56,159 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 4: might not be discussing these issues so much. 371 00:21:59,919 --> 00:22:02,039 Speaker 1: What are some of the other issues that you are 372 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 1: trying to work on as a family. 373 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 4: Well, both of my children have gone through difficult times 374 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:22,159 Speaker 4: with drinking, and my daughter lost her job because of 375 00:22:22,159 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 4: it and she went into outpatient for a while. And 376 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 4: so I wonder about was I clueless when they were 377 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 4: in high school? Why didn't I talk to them more 378 00:22:39,639 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 4: about it? Because both my father and my father in 379 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 4: law were alcoholics, And my daughter said to me, well, 380 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 4: why didn't you ever bring that up? And I guess 381 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 4: I didn't realize how much power alcohol had in their lives. 382 00:22:55,639 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 4: They're both sober and going to AA right now, and 383 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 4: they have sponsors. So I guess I'm also trying to 384 00:23:01,639 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 4: understand how was I not there. I was there when 385 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 4: they were growing up. In fact, I I felt like 386 00:23:09,919 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 4: I was very responsible in staying home and not going 387 00:23:13,879 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 4: away so the kids couldn't have parties. I guess I 388 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 4: didn't understand where the drinking came from. And I think 389 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 4: through the therapy that I'm doing, I'm understanding that a 390 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,719 Speaker 4: little bit more. But of course I feel guilty that 391 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,640 Speaker 4: maybe I wasn't as sympathetic when they were growing up 392 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 4: or fully present or I mean, we were always together 393 00:23:34,439 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 4: in terms of eating dinner together, taking vacations together, celebrating 394 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 4: the holidays together, but obviously there were things that they 395 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,919 Speaker 4: felt they needed alcohol to escape from. 396 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 3: Do you know when the drinking problems began and how 397 00:23:50,679 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 3: long they've been in recovery. 398 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 4: Yes, my son's been sober for at least a year 399 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 4: and my daughter since February of this year. She had 400 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 4: a relapse since then and I went to be with her. 401 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 4: But they're both working really hard on it, and I 402 00:24:09,679 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 4: know that they're much happier being sober. 403 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 5: How long have they been struggling with alcoholism? 404 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 4: Well, I didn't realize it, but according to my daughter 405 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 4: that it started in high school for her. I think 406 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,519 Speaker 4: it was more college for my son, sort of like 407 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 4: you go away to school and you party, party, party, 408 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,519 Speaker 4: although he said he drank in high school, but I 409 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 4: never really saw that if. 410 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 3: They started in high school, and in college. It's a 411 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 3: lot of years of drinking, and they both coincidentally became 412 00:24:42,439 --> 00:24:45,439 Speaker 3: sober around the same time, which is roughly around the 413 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 3: same time that your husband died. With those things related, it. 414 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 4: Could be I think they both had DUI's. It's sort 415 00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 4: of like the consequences of life were coming at them 416 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,279 Speaker 4: pretty strong. I didn't know the extent of their drinking 417 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:09,959 Speaker 4: problems until more recently, so obviously they were high from me. 418 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 4: I mean, they both did come out and tell me 419 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 4: about their DUIs and I didn't judge them or anything. 420 00:25:15,879 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 4: I just tried to listen to them. But for my daughters, 421 00:25:19,399 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 4: you kept drinking. It could be about their dad dying. 422 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,519 Speaker 4: Maybe they're taking stock of their life. I think it 423 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 4: was actually in the process before that happened. But sometimes 424 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 4: it takes a shock to maybe throw you out of 425 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 4: your comfort zone. 426 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 1: You know, when you say they told you about the 427 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: DUIs and you didn't judge them and you just listened. 428 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,719 Speaker 5: I feel like there's some. 429 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 1: Confusion for you around what it means to be able 430 00:25:48,919 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 1: to be present for somebody without being intrusive. Your kids 431 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: have told you that they got these duys. Your son said, 432 00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:59,199 Speaker 1: just by the way I want to let you know 433 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: that I'm going to couples counseling with my wife. And 434 00:26:03,159 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: you said that your response to these things has been 435 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,679 Speaker 1: to just hear what they had to say. But I 436 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 1: wonder if underneath this giving you of information is actually 437 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: a request for help, and that they actually do want 438 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,999 Speaker 1: to hear what you think, or maybe they want some 439 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,959 Speaker 1: kind of help that they're not able to voice. And 440 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 1: I wonder if all of you in some way have 441 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: trouble really being direct with each other about what you're 442 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 1: trying to communicate. And even with your son's wife, if 443 00:26:37,159 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 1: they've been married for about five years and he got 444 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 1: sober about a year ago, he's been struggling with this 445 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: addiction throughout the marriage, and it could be that one 446 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,919 Speaker 1: of the reasons she's hesitant to have children is that 447 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,759 Speaker 1: she doesn't feel like he's in a place to be 448 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: a father right now. 449 00:26:58,439 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 5: But nobody's talking about this. 450 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 4: I think that's very sound. I think what you're saying 451 00:27:05,639 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 4: is accurate. I would be worried too if I was 452 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 4: married to him and I saw that he was having 453 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,999 Speaker 4: this major issue. 454 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 3: How are they feeling about you? Often when adult children 455 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,959 Speaker 3: lose a parent, they very much worry about the other parent. 456 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 3: Have they expressed any concern for you? What's their feelings 457 00:27:28,919 --> 00:27:29,919 Speaker 3: about how you're doing? 458 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 6: Well? 459 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, they are worried about me, and I think they 460 00:27:33,879 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 4: do worry about how I am grieving and how I'm 461 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 4: dealing with being alone. They were the ones who encouraged 462 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 4: me to start. 463 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 3: Seeing someone, they being both well. 464 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,959 Speaker 4: I think initially my son was really wanting me to 465 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 4: do it, and I was staying with my daughter at 466 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,799 Speaker 4: the time, and I was going to wait until I 467 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 4: got back home, and then I thought maybe I should 468 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,919 Speaker 4: start this counseling right now, so I did, and I 469 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:09,639 Speaker 4: think they were really happy to hear that. 470 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 3: You know what's interesting, Maria, is that therapy for most 471 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 3: people is intensely personal. And your son shares with you 472 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 3: that he's in couples counseling. He encourages you to go 473 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 3: to therapy. He's concerned about how you're doing, and so, 474 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 3: on the one hand, there's this avenue of communication which 475 00:28:31,159 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 3: sounds quite open. On the one hand, all of those 476 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 3: are coming from him to you and not necessarily from 477 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,559 Speaker 3: you to him. In other words, you want to have 478 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 3: a deeper discussion, but you really hold back it certainly 479 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 3: sounds like he's opening some doors for you to come 480 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 3: through in terms of bringing up certain topics like therapy, 481 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 3: like feelings. 482 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,959 Speaker 4: M hm, I agree. I guess it's just hard to 483 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:03,239 Speaker 4: talk about these things. 484 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 3: But are you owning that it's hard for you. You 485 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 3: make it sound like it's hard for him, and I'm 486 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 3: wondering who it's hurtful. 487 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 4: Well, I think it's hard for me too. It's funny 488 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 4: I can say it to a friend, right. I want 489 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:21,559 Speaker 4: to hear what it is. 490 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: What is it that if you were able to say 491 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,519 Speaker 1: how you feel, I wonder if you're even able to 492 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: say it to yourself in full, not just the thing about, oh, 493 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: it'd be nice to have grandchildren, but all the feelings 494 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: about how you're worried that your son's marriage replicates your 495 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: own a little bit, where he's in the role that 496 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: you were in where you felt sort of railroaded a 497 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,039 Speaker 1: lot and sort of controlled, and we don't know if 498 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: that's true. This is just something that your daughter has expressed, 499 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,239 Speaker 1: But this is your worry because you went through so 500 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: many years like that and you are worried that your 501 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: son might be experiencing something similar. And then there's a 502 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: part of you that just wants to have grandchildren because 503 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: it's fun. And then there's the part two of maybe 504 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:15,519 Speaker 1: you imagined your son as a father one day, and 505 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: maybe you really enjoyed the experience of being a parent, 506 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: And it's hard to imagine the loss for your son 507 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: if he does want kids, of not having that richness, 508 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,519 Speaker 1: not having that experience of having kids, if it is 509 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: indeed something that he wants, but that he would be 510 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: giving up for whatever reasons in the marriage. 511 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 5: And so could you tell us how you feel about this? 512 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 2: Well? 513 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 4: I do worry that if he wants a child and 514 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 4: he can't have a child, then how does that feel 515 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 4: when you grow up and you're old someday and you 516 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 4: don't have anybody to comfort you. I mean, I have 517 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 4: my children to comfort me. I find it unimaginable to 518 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 4: understand not having children, I really do. 519 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 5: What did you love about having children? 520 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, they were just so adorable, you know, them, 521 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 4: feeling their warm skin, being close to them, hugging them. 522 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 4: In fact, this was a conversation I just had recently 523 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 4: with my daughter in law. She asked me, did people 524 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 4: say I love you a lot growing up? And I 525 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 4: said not really? And it was a decision I made 526 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 4: that when I had children, I was going to let 527 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 4: them know I loved them a lot. 528 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 3: Why did she bring that up? That's an interesting question 529 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 3: to ask you. 530 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 4: I know, this came totally out of the blue. This 531 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 4: happened two days ago. She sent me a voice memo 532 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 4: and said, my friend and I were talking about do 533 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 4: you say I love you a lot? In your family? 534 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 4: How do you talk to your children about this? So 535 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 4: I got in touch with her and I said, we 536 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 4: didn't say it much growing up. Growing up was more 537 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 4: like do your chores get good grades so you can 538 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 4: go to college. 539 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 3: Clearly, what she's asking about is something between her and 540 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 3: your son and his ability to express I love you. Oh. 541 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 3: I would imagine, you know, in some way, and if 542 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 3: he's having trouble doing that, she's calling you and she's saying, hey, 543 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 3: did you guys do that when he was growing up? 544 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 6: Okay, yeah, I would think he'd be able to say 545 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 6: it to her because I just loved, you know, singing 546 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 6: to them, reading to them, taking them to the playground. 547 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 4: In fact, I was even thinking about homeschooling them because 548 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 4: I really wanted everything just to be wonderful for them. 549 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,799 Speaker 4: And sometimes you send them off to school and everything 550 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 4: goes Hayward, I. 551 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: Can hear how much you loved raising your kids, and 552 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: yet there wasn't a lot of I love you. You 553 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: expressed your love in other ways, the hugging, the kissing, snuggling, 554 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 1: the being present for them, all of that. But it's 555 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: interesting that as this whole conversation is about having a 556 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:10,519 Speaker 1: voice and being able to directly communicate with people and 557 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 1: even something as simple and yet complicated as love, it 558 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 1: was hard to say those three words I love you, 559 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: and now you do. And I think that there's something 560 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: that's happening in the dynamic of the family that is 561 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: going to give you space to do something different in 562 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 1: the situation with your son. 563 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 3: So, Maria, we do have some advice for you, and 564 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,999 Speaker 3: what would like you to do is would like you 565 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 3: to talk with your son and with your daughter at 566 00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 3: the same time, because we think there needs to be 567 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 3: another family meeting, and would like you to start by 568 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 3: mentioning to both of them that your daughter in law 569 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 3: called you to ask if you used to say I 570 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:14,320 Speaker 3: love you when the kids were growing up, and that 571 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 3: got you thinking about how much you love them when 572 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 3: they were kids, and how much you enjoyed them and 573 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 3: how much you wanted to protect them so much so 574 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 3: that you thought of homeschooling them. Yet you didn't say 575 00:34:27,720 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 3: I love you much verbally at that time, and that 576 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 3: you didn't voice that to them as much as you 577 00:34:36,720 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 3: felt it. You didn't use your voice enough when they 578 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,320 Speaker 3: were younger. You didn't use it to stand up for 579 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 3: yourself with your husband, and perhaps even to stand up 580 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 3: for them with their father, who you described as authoritarian. 581 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,919 Speaker 3: You didn't use it to tell them about the history 582 00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 3: of alcoholism in the family. And you're saying that to 583 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 3: them now because you've been going to therapy and you've 584 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 3: been working on finding your voice and using your voice, 585 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 3: and that's something that you want to be able to 586 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 3: do more. 587 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 5: Now, right, And so. 588 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 1: We were thinking about in this family meeting, having you 589 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:27,240 Speaker 1: say to your daughter, you know, I haven't used my 590 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:34,320 Speaker 1: voice with the two of you, and I wonder how. 591 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,360 Speaker 5: You feel about the relationship. 592 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,760 Speaker 1: That you're in, and I wonder how you feel about 593 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: the struggle that you're having with alcohol, and to say 594 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: to your son, I wonder about how your sobriety is going, 595 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: and I wonder about how you feel about fatherhood and 596 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 1: whether that's something that you've always wanted but you feel 597 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: like you're not in a position to do because you're 598 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 1: going through recovery right now, or if it's something that 599 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 1: doesn't matter as much to you as maybe I'm imagining 600 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: it does, and you can say to them that I 601 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: wonder if you've been as afraid to talk to me 602 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 1: as I have been to talk to you. And I 603 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: want us as a family to be able to talk 604 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:30,760 Speaker 1: about hard things. And I wonder how the both of 605 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: you feel about this idea that maybe we can all 606 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: use our voices more and be more direct with each 607 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,320 Speaker 1: other and open up those lines of communication in a 608 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: way that we haven't really established in our family. And 609 00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: you'll see how they respond to this. But most important, Maria, 610 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: is we want to know how you feel having had 611 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: that conversation with them. We want to know what was 612 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: it like to use your voice with them in a 613 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: direct way, and to say all of these things to 614 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 1: them that you've been thinking but haven't directly expressed to them, 615 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: and to request that these lines of communication opened so 616 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: that what happened in the past around people not being 617 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 1: able to use their voices doesn't get repeated. Now, grandchild 618 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: or no grandchild, and now to be able to say 619 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: I want to create a culture of openness, of using 620 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: our voices, of not being shut down, whether that's feeling 621 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 1: like they can't talk to you or feeling like they 622 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:37,840 Speaker 1: don't know how to talk to their partners and use 623 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:42,720 Speaker 1: their voices with their partners. And we want to know 624 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 1: how that felt for you to finally open that door 625 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,720 Speaker 1: as a start in this conversation. 626 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,320 Speaker 3: How does that sound to you, Maria? 627 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:58,880 Speaker 4: It sounds wonderful. I'm imagining myself opening a door as 628 00:37:58,920 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 4: we're speaking. 629 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 3: Okay, that's great. It might be a little scary. But 630 00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 3: the other thing you know that we had in mind 631 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 3: here is that your daughter in law called you to 632 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 3: ask about something that was related to her husband, and 633 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,320 Speaker 3: your daughter tells you what her brother and your son 634 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,880 Speaker 3: is actually thinking because he doesn't tell you directly. There's 635 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 3: this so many kinds of communications that are not direct, 636 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:26,760 Speaker 3: and especially when there's alcoholism involved, honesty and directness is 637 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 3: really really important. And so this is important for them 638 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,280 Speaker 3: as much as it is for you, as much it 639 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 3: is for the entire family and all the communication between 640 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:37,360 Speaker 3: all of you. 641 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 4: I'd be happy to do that. 642 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:41,240 Speaker 3: Great. 643 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 5: We look forward to hearing how it goes. 644 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 4: I really appreciate you taking the time to discuss this 645 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 4: issue with me. 646 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 1: We know you have a voice because we heard it, 647 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,320 Speaker 1: and so that's the voice that we want you to 648 00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:58,760 Speaker 1: take into this conversation with that. 649 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 5: Okay, you're ready. 650 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:11,800 Speaker 7: I'm ready. 651 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 3: I have to admit I am not sure how it's 652 00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 3: going to go in terms of how this is going 653 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 3: to be received by Maria's son and daughter, But I 654 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 3: do know that what's important here is for her to 655 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:29,320 Speaker 3: find her own voice, and by merit of having this conversation, 656 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:31,240 Speaker 3: she will be doing that. 657 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,840 Speaker 1: And even if they don't respond in the moment, I 658 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: think what she's doing is she is shifting something in 659 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 1: this dynamic in the family where everything was happening indirectly. 660 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,800 Speaker 1: She never mentioned in her letter the Elephant in the 661 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: Room that the whole time that he's been married, he's 662 00:39:49,720 --> 00:39:52,800 Speaker 1: been struggling with this addiction, and maybe that has some 663 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,320 Speaker 1: impact on his readiness to be a father. 664 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 5: This whole dilemma, to me, was really less. 665 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:06,640 Speaker 1: A dilemma about grandchildren and more a dilemma about finding 666 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: one's voice. And she's been starting to find hers, and 667 00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: I think she's modeling for her kids by having this 668 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: conversation how they can find theirs. 669 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,759 Speaker 3: I think for her kids, because they're struggling with alcoholism, 670 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 3: one thing that's really important for the misdirectness, and so 671 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 3: her being so direct, even if it takes them a 672 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 3: while to appreciate it will be very useful for them. 673 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 5: I agree. 674 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:35,360 Speaker 3: So a fingers crossed for her. 675 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,320 Speaker 1: You're listening to dear therapist from iHeartRadio. We'll be back 676 00:40:47,400 --> 00:41:00,840 Speaker 1: after a quick break. So guy, we got the voicemail 677 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:01,360 Speaker 1: from Maria. 678 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,920 Speaker 3: Oh good, that session went in a different direction than 679 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,360 Speaker 3: I was expecting. So let's hear it. 680 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 4: Maria, I spoke with my children since I spoke with 681 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,880 Speaker 4: the two of you, and I also had a session 682 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 4: with my therapist in between. She suggested that I write 683 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,480 Speaker 4: things down in an email that I wanted to go 684 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:30,760 Speaker 4: over with my children, because then, she said, you're able 685 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,240 Speaker 4: to formulate your thoughts, you can look at them, you 686 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 4: can reflect on them and see if there's something you 687 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:41,840 Speaker 4: want to change or add, And so that's what I did. Also, 688 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,200 Speaker 4: sometimes when I talk to my children, the two of 689 00:41:45,240 --> 00:41:49,320 Speaker 4: them together, I almost feel a little flat footed. It's 690 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 4: hard to talk and think at the same time. And 691 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 4: I wanted them also to have these thoughts in the 692 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 4: email before we talked, in case they had any questions 693 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,480 Speaker 4: and that sort of thing. And basically what I told 694 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,280 Speaker 4: them was I've loved them ever since before they were born. 695 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 4: Weren't and how I made a conscious decision to make 696 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,720 Speaker 4: sure that they knew they were loved because I didn't 697 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:20,760 Speaker 4: feel that much love in my birth family. There weren't 698 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 4: a lot of I love yous and hugging. It was 699 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 4: more about chores and getting your homework done. It was 700 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:33,000 Speaker 4: an authoritarian family, and I think some of those same 701 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,440 Speaker 4: patterns got repeated as they were growing up because my 702 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:42,000 Speaker 4: husband was authoritarian and maybe I didn't have enough of 703 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,280 Speaker 4: my own voice. And I also expressed that in the 704 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:50,960 Speaker 4: email and told them I was hoping that they would 705 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 4: feel they had a voice in their relationships. I didn't 706 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 4: want them to repeat some of the same mistakes I made. 707 00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:05,240 Speaker 4: They loved the letter. They said they were very touched 708 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:09,160 Speaker 4: by it. We talked about it briefly in our conversation, 709 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,720 Speaker 4: and one of the things that came up was my 710 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,400 Speaker 4: son said he didn't really want to rehash the whole 711 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 4: past and hold on to judgments and blame, and I said, 712 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,200 Speaker 4: I totally agree with you, and so it was a 713 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:27,800 Speaker 4: very constructive conversation. And doing the email and writing it 714 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,920 Speaker 4: down ahead of time allowed me to be very focused 715 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 4: on exactly what I wanted to communicate with them, and 716 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:41,240 Speaker 4: it went really well. So I'm feeling very happy. And 717 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:46,840 Speaker 4: I had a lot of trepidation before the conversation, and 718 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,960 Speaker 4: I addressed that in the letter. I said, I want 719 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 4: to be a part of your lives. I want you 720 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,000 Speaker 4: to use me as a sounding block. I want you 721 00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,400 Speaker 4: to come to me with questions if you have them. 722 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,640 Speaker 4: I want you to make your own decisions, but I'm 723 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:04,840 Speaker 4: going to be here for you if that's what you like. 724 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,280 Speaker 4: So I think it was a very good conversation and 725 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:14,960 Speaker 4: it went really well. 726 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,160 Speaker 1: What I love about Maria's voicemail was that her letter 727 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 1: was really about this worry about having grandchildren or not 728 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,920 Speaker 1: having grandchildren and whether her son was able to voice 729 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:30,040 Speaker 1: that in his marriage, and what it became about was 730 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:34,040 Speaker 1: a whole family dynamic between her and her two children 731 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,400 Speaker 1: and saying all of these things that had been unspoken 732 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:44,280 Speaker 1: about the authoritarian household, her past, their father, and her 733 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:47,560 Speaker 1: hope that they will have a voice both in their 734 00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,600 Speaker 1: relationships and with her. 735 00:44:51,240 --> 00:44:53,520 Speaker 3: I moved two minds about it, to be honest with you, 736 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:55,800 Speaker 3: because it sounds like it went well. It sounds like 737 00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:00,120 Speaker 3: she conveyed the messages she needed to convey. The fact 738 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,240 Speaker 3: though that it was most of it done via the 739 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:07,200 Speaker 3: email and they only had a brief conversation about it, 740 00:45:07,240 --> 00:45:09,600 Speaker 3: And even in that brief conversation, the son and said 741 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 3: I don't want to rehash the past too much leaves 742 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:17,600 Speaker 3: me wondering still whether the next time she needs to 743 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,480 Speaker 3: have a direct communication with him about something that's going on, 744 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,640 Speaker 3: she'll feel comfortable enough to do it, whether her son 745 00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,240 Speaker 3: or her daughter, which we didn't hear much about, will 746 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:28,640 Speaker 3: accept it. In other words, when we ask people to 747 00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,320 Speaker 3: have a conversation, it's because we need them to make 748 00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:35,280 Speaker 3: the precedent of this being something we talk about, and 749 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,920 Speaker 3: an email is not exactly the same. 750 00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:41,320 Speaker 5: I feel like it's a great start. 751 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,320 Speaker 1: I feel like sometimes just opening up that line of communication, 752 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,920 Speaker 1: especially when it's so hard for you and you have 753 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:53,160 Speaker 1: no practice doing this face to face, is a start. 754 00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:55,760 Speaker 1: I hope that, like you said, it doesn't become the 755 00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,920 Speaker 1: only way that they communicate. But I do feel like 756 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,000 Speaker 1: she said things that they needed to hear both of 757 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:05,280 Speaker 1: them have their issues with addiction, and I feel like 758 00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,040 Speaker 1: one of the big things with addiction is people not 759 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,520 Speaker 1: talking about what needs to to be spoken about. And 760 00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,440 Speaker 1: I also, in my mind flagged what you flagged about 761 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:17,360 Speaker 1: the son saying I don't really want to talk about 762 00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:17,840 Speaker 1: the past. 763 00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:22,120 Speaker 5: And I think that that will maybe come with time. 764 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:24,240 Speaker 1: He's going to have to deal with his past if 765 00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:25,640 Speaker 1: he's going to deal with his addiction. 766 00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:27,440 Speaker 5: But I think as a. 767 00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:31,200 Speaker 1: First step, I'm really really proud of her, and I 768 00:46:31,240 --> 00:46:34,080 Speaker 1: think it had a really positive effect on the three 769 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:34,480 Speaker 1: of them. 770 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:38,560 Speaker 3: One last thought is that I would always defer to 771 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,480 Speaker 3: a therapist who knows Maria obviously much better than we do. 772 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,520 Speaker 3: And when she's saying to her, Okay, that was the advice, 773 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,480 Speaker 3: but maybe do it in writing first. She might know 774 00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:48,480 Speaker 3: her well enough to know that that is likely to 775 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,320 Speaker 3: go better than if she were to do it just 776 00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:55,160 Speaker 3: verbally on a call. To that end, I think she 777 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,880 Speaker 3: did a magnificent job. If she's listening. What I would 778 00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,080 Speaker 3: suggest to her is, the next time there's something on 779 00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,160 Speaker 3: your mind that you want to talk to your son 780 00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:07,480 Speaker 3: or your daughter about, please don't hesitate. Use the momentum 781 00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:12,200 Speaker 3: you've created with the email and conversation to practice and 782 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:16,080 Speaker 3: to establish step two of And here is me bringing 783 00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:17,480 Speaker 3: stuff up like I said I would. 784 00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:18,239 Speaker 5: Yeah. 785 00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:20,680 Speaker 1: I think momentum is the keyword here because they think 786 00:47:20,720 --> 00:47:23,240 Speaker 1: she got the ball rolling and now she's got to 787 00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:24,000 Speaker 1: keep it rolling. 788 00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,440 Speaker 3: Hey, fellow travelers, if you've used any of our advice 789 00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:34,880 Speaker 3: from the podcast in your own life, send us a 790 00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,560 Speaker 3: quick voice memo to Lori and Guy at iHeartMedia dot 791 00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:40,800 Speaker 3: com and tell us about it. We may include it 792 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,920 Speaker 3: in a future show. Thank you so much for listening. 793 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,080 Speaker 3: If you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to 794 00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:48,080 Speaker 3: rate and review it. 795 00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:52,120 Speaker 1: You can follow us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb dot 796 00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,160 Speaker 1: com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb 797 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:59,200 Speaker 1: one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author. 798 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,640 Speaker 3: And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and 799 00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:06,440 Speaker 3: on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd 800 00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:09,320 Speaker 3: like to discuss with us, big or small, email us 801 00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,320 Speaker 3: at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com. 802 00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:16,840 Speaker 1: Our executive producers, Christopher Hasiotis, were produced and edited by 803 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,880 Speaker 1: Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our 804 00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:23,360 Speaker 1: podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric. 805 00:48:23,720 --> 00:48:26,440 Speaker 3: Next week, a high school student feels the pressure of 806 00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:32,120 Speaker 3: academic achievement, college applications, and extracurricular activities while also trying 807 00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:33,680 Speaker 3: to maintain a sense of self. 808 00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,160 Speaker 8: Like the top five things that make me happy at 809 00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,200 Speaker 8: the end of the day, I do think a big 810 00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:40,759 Speaker 8: part of it would be social too. I do find 811 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,680 Speaker 8: happiness in doing well in school, but I also do 812 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,000 Speaker 8: appreciate the connection. It's just I feel like there's two 813 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:49,200 Speaker 8: sides of me that are kind of battling for the 814 00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:53,440 Speaker 8: time to find those interactions that make me happy. 815 00:48:53,800 --> 00:49:01,120 Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.