1 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: I had been wanting to just see him this whole time, 2 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: and it was like a sharp, burning, scolding, hot knife, 3 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: like going through my body, like over and over, having 4 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: to tell and like no, like is Robert trying to 5 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: lure me away? 6 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 2: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm 7 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 2: Jessica Ossavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix series Dancing 8 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 2: for the Devil, the seven M TikTok. 9 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,279 Speaker 3: Cult, and I'm Kalia Gray, former member of seven M 10 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 3: Films and Chakana Church. 11 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 2: We are better. I think we're starting to get the 12 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 2: hang of this. 13 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 3: I think the more that we do it, the more 14 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 3: I'm getting excited about what we have planned for the 15 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 3: rest of the series. 16 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 2: I'm excited to chat with Leah and hear a perspective 17 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 2: from family members, and I think that's something that we 18 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 2: always forget that even if someone hadn't experienced a high 19 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 2: controlled environment or was directly involved with Chakaina for a 20 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 2: long period of time, it could still affect them. It 21 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 2: still impacts them. And Leah having been the sister to Daniel, 22 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 2: who was Robert's right hand man, and with someone that 23 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 2: was a part of Chakaina for twenty plus years. It's 24 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 2: an interesting perspective. 25 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 3: It really is. And you know, I think a lot 26 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 3: of people have talked about how Daniel was a big 27 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 3: part of the dancers. He was their mentor. Daniel was 28 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 3: one of the many pieces of why a lot of 29 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 3: us had left. So I think today we're really going 30 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 3: to dig into the disillusion of a brother and sister 31 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 3: bond and look at the current repercussions for Leah, how 32 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 3: she's processing it and all of her attempts to move 33 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 3: forward as a person, a mother and a sister. Now 34 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 3: here's our conversation with. 35 00:01:45,680 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 2: Leah Kalia, just so you know, I've actually had the 36 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 2: opportunity to speak to Leah. We'd spoken a couple times 37 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 2: early into the process of developing the documentary and just 38 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 2: instantly connected. I think that Leah was very like honest 39 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 2: and she was vulnerable. But at the same time, it 40 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: was in that moment that Daniel was leaving the church, 41 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 2: so I think that it made things a little bit tricky, 42 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 2: and I'm just so happy that we were able to 43 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 2: circle back and we can have this conversation today and 44 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 2: introduce you to Khalia, And. 45 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, I really appreciate being able to have you here 46 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 3: to talk about just everything that had happened, and you know, 47 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 3: and I'm looking forward to hear what you have to say, 48 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 3: to hear more about you, because I think the biggest 49 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 3: thing that this process is like taught me is how 50 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 3: healing it can be to like see and like meet 51 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,519 Speaker 3: other people who have had similar experiences and just I 52 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 3: guess that feeling of like not being alone and knowing 53 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 3: like there's other people out there who have this shared 54 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 3: tragic story that we can like look back on and 55 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,839 Speaker 3: move past and hopefully heal and help other people who 56 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 3: like come in contact with it to know like they're 57 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 3: not alone. There's options out there for you and for 58 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 3: your loved ones. 59 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 2: That was probably a huge thing I experienced too, is 60 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 2: just feeling alone. You know, my brother was in Chicina 61 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 2: for over twenty years. It's a hard thing to talk 62 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 2: to somebody about because there's really nobody that could relate 63 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 2: to it, like, oh, your brother's in a cult. Also, like, no, that. 64 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: Hasn't ever happen, right, So luckily I had, you know, 65 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: my two best friends that I grew up with. 66 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 2: But aside from. 67 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: That, yeah, not really anybody else having you know, a 68 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: similar experience really because nobody really talked about it anyways, 69 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: Like I mean, I'm being sure, you know, basically just 70 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: don't talk about anything. Yeah, We've heard a few people 71 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: talk about how it's just like you're not supposed to 72 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: talk about it. And as the conversations have grown and 73 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: the people that I've spoken to, you know, we've learned 74 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: and about dying to your family and dying to yourself. 75 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: But that isolation and feeling like you can't speak to anyone. 76 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: I can only imagine how difficult that was. But do 77 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: you mind just taking us back? Were you part of 78 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: Chicaina in the early days. Yes, So Robert's sister is 79 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: my mom's like mentor, Like she's been my mom's mentor 80 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: from in the nineties. So Robert he wanted to start 81 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: his own church. So I'm not sure if he asked, 82 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: like my mom and dad, if we wanted to be 83 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: you know, members, or if maybe my parents offered like, oh, 84 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: you know, we'll help. 85 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 2: I don't know. 86 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 1: I don't really know how I came about. But it 87 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 1: was our family and a few others. It was maybe 88 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 1: like four or five families, and one of them was 89 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: Robert's brother and his family. We had services out of 90 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: my dad's office at the time. 91 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 2: How old were you at that time? Do you remember? 92 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 2: Probably still in elementary school, like maybe like fifth grade, 93 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 2: fifth or sixth grade. Wow, we actually haven't heard much 94 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 2: about Julie, And to be honest, I'm not sure I 95 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 2: really knew Robert's siblings outside of Catherine, just because she 96 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 2: was talked about quite a bit by not only people 97 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 2: that were featured in the documentary, but also as we 98 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 2: had conversations with other people. So there's Julie and then 99 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 2: he his brother, and then they were all part of 100 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 2: the church in the beginning except for Julie. This is 101 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 2: what my mom told me. 102 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 1: She said that Robert had asked Julie if she wanted 103 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: to also join his church, but she declined, so just 104 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: his brother and then. 105 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 2: Kathy got it. Can you tell us what it was 106 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 2: like in the beginning and the growth that you saw 107 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 2: at the time that you were there. 108 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: We never attended outside of it being at my dad's office. 109 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 1: And I think after my dad's office is when Robert 110 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: moved to the Norwalk location. It was like an actual 111 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: church building, But I don't know, it didn't really feel 112 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: like it grew a lot, like, if anything, maybe it 113 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: could have gotten to like maybe like fifteen people at 114 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: the most, Like it was not a lot of people, 115 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: like it stayed pretty small. 116 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 2: And then we just left. And I don't even know 117 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 2: how long we were there for before we left, not 118 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 2: a long time, maybe a year or two. So you 119 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 2: and your family left and Daniel, your brother, was a 120 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 2: part of attending those early days. Yeah, how was that 121 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 2: when you all decided to leave and he stayed, well, 122 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 2: he didn't stay. Then we all left together. Okay, So 123 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 2: a few years later is when he went back. And 124 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 2: at this time she kind of had grown a lot. 125 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 2: They had like a pretty good, like young adult sized 126 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 2: group of people. And Daniel's best friend, Ryan Schen, who 127 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 2: is Robert's nephew, was attending there, and I think Kathy 128 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 2: was already there too, So it didn't seem weird at all. 129 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 1: For him to go back there. If anything, he didn't 130 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: really have a choice at the time. My mom stopped 131 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: supporting his college because he didn't want to pursue. 132 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 2: A medical profession. And that's pretty typical with Korean parents. 133 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 2: It's like, you know, you're be a doctor, dentist, or 134 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 2: a lawyer. And he was actually living with Julie at 135 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 2: the time like him and Ryan. So I guess the 136 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 2: opportunity came for him to go to Chokina, probably because 137 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 2: Ryan had started attending. It makes more sense than he 138 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 2: did go than stay in that situation. 139 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 3: When the things starts to feel a little odd with 140 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 3: him being around Chakaina, I. 141 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: Think it was when I suddenly stopped hearing from him. 142 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: We've always been really close, so it was very odd 143 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: to just suddenly just not have any contact from him. 144 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: I just remember he just felt like he had disappeared 145 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: kind of. I don't know what I thought back then. 146 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: I understand why he would want to distance himself from 147 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: our parents, but I don't understand why he would from me. 148 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: But at the time all that stuff came out, like 149 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: with the Wokings and they did that. It had been 150 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: maybe almost seven years, going on eight years where it 151 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: was just zero contact from Daniel, because there was a 152 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: time before that where we had gotten reconnected and then 153 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: something happened and then him and Chloe decided to cut 154 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: me off completely, which was basically like they just didn't 155 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: answer my phone calls or text anymore. And there wasn't 156 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: even any explanation. It was just nothing like zero, like 157 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: are you alive. I don't know, Like I just ton't 158 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: know if maybe Daniel needed help and like just couldn't 159 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: reach out for help because it just didn't make sense 160 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: for him to cut me off like that so abruptly. 161 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 2: Are you comfortable sharing? Like what was the thing for 162 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 2: Chloe and Daniel to cut you off? 163 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: It was like pretty close after our older brother had 164 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: passed away, and Daniel and Chloe had come to the funeral, 165 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: and it just felt like they were outsiders coming to 166 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: someone's funeral. I mean, I was glad that they came 167 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 1: and stuff, but that was just kind of like how 168 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: our relationship was. It was like very surface level, like 169 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: you don't ask questions. I'm just happy to see Daniel 170 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: at least, Like I don't really care at this point 171 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: if he doesn't want to tell us stuff, just don't 172 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: ask anything, Just be like, hey, how. 173 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 2: Are you cool? 174 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,719 Speaker 1: If you're alive, you're you're hair, you seem happy. I 175 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: don't know, but I had found out that Robert was 176 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: quote unquote married to Hannah, like they were together, and 177 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: I got confused because I had had a conversation with Chloe. 178 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: Let just get you know, because Coloe and I were 179 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: close too, we're friends, and we would hang out and stuff, 180 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: and I'd asked her, so, what's up like. 181 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 2: With your dad? Is he single? Like is he married? 182 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 2: Like is he gonna get remarried? You know? 183 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: And like those are I feel valid questions to ask 184 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,679 Speaker 1: about somebody, but not in this situation. 185 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 2: You know, you don't ask those questions. 186 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 1: So I think a whole day had gone by before 187 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: she like responded, and then when she had responded, it 188 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: definitely didn't seem like a response that had come from her. 189 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: Like it was very indirect and like beating around the bush, 190 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: like not really saying what they're you know, And I'm like, 191 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:43,319 Speaker 1: it's really just like a yes or. 192 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 2: No, yeah, talking in circles. Yeah. 193 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: I was like, I'm so confused by what I've just read, 194 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 1: Like these words aren't coming together in my head. So 195 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: I did feel at that time, Okay, maybe somebody is 196 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: telling her what to say, you know. It's this was 197 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 1: one of those things, like another thing that it was 198 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: like my spidy senses that I have had about China 199 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: and Robert and stuff. 200 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 2: And after that it was like radio silent suddenly. And 201 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 2: then seven years later, and. 202 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,599 Speaker 1: I would even text my brother throughout that time I 203 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: gave birth to my second daughter during that time, and 204 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: I would text him like you have a new niece, 205 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: like Rahim as Noah, and I would send pictures periodically 206 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: because I still said delivered like it never didn't say so, 207 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: I mean somebody was getting my pictures. 208 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 2: You know. 209 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 3: I've heard Daniel mention like his like nieces. He and 210 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 3: Chloe had mentioned it in the time that we were there, So. 211 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, Chloe had told me after they left that they 212 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 2: did get them, Khalia, did you ever hear them talk 213 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 2: about their family much outside of that? They did? 214 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 3: And I think whenever like Chloe or Daniel or any 215 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 3: of the other mentors really talk about their family, it's 216 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 3: more in like a loving tone because I've talked about 217 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 3: how like in Chicina, a lot of the teachings are 218 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 3: like you're trying to get better so you can help 219 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 3: save your family. And so even Hannah would talk about like, 220 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 3: you know, it's not like I don't miss my family. 221 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 3: It's not like I don't love my family, but I 222 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 3: love my family so much that I want to make 223 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 3: sure that I can help them get into heaven. So 224 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 3: I'm you know, doing this like rigorous religious training so 225 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 3: I can get them into heaven. And I think it's 226 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 3: just such like opposing thoughts because what you're doing to 227 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 3: your family in real time, it's not love, Like it 228 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 3: doesn't feel like love to them. You're separating yourself from 229 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 3: the people who've loved and cared about you. You're missing 230 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 3: those moments with them, like the birth of your nieces, 231 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 3: And I'm really sorry that you had to go through 232 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:35,559 Speaker 3: that without your brother, even though he was here. Hearing 233 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 3: him talk about his nieces, I was like, oh, like 234 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 3: he must really care about his family. And at the time, 235 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, maybe that's why he's doing this. 236 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 2: You know, I never gave up hope, Like I always knew, 237 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 2: like I knew Daniel was there. I knew, you know, 238 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 2: even my parents, you know, when I would talk to 239 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 2: my parents about it and tell them like, I'm pretty sure, 240 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 2: you know, she's kind as a cult. All the red flags. 241 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: Are there, Like it's just you know, he's an adult, 242 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: he's choosing to be there. He obviously has some issue 243 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: with us because of what we did. Just keep praying 244 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: about it, and that was just basically the response that 245 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: I got from them, And so, you know, going back 246 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: to just feeling alone and I really related to In 247 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: the documentary, your sister was saying how it feels like 248 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: her sibling is dead, but like they're all around you. 249 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 2: Like it's like you have to. 250 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: Kind of treat it like they're dead just to kind 251 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: of like cope or just understand because they're not dead, 252 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,319 Speaker 1: but it feels like it because you can't reach them 253 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: or talk to them, but they're alive, and I don't know, 254 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: It's just it's a terrible feeling. 255 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 3: I'm so sorry. 256 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 2: And Leeah, I'm so sorry because going back like you 257 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 2: had lost a brother and you know what that feels like, 258 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 2: and so to have your other brother and knowing that 259 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 2: how close you all were and feeling like you've lost 260 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 2: that person too, Like I can't even imagine I'm so 261 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 2: close to my siblings and what that would be like. 262 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 2: And so I'm so sorry for the loss of your 263 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 2: brother and for the feeling of loss of one that 264 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 2: was still there but wasn't. So I just can't imagine 265 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:07,199 Speaker 2: that was easy. But as I started to look into 266 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 2: the story, you were pretty active in the comments, and 267 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 2: that was the first time that we kind of learned 268 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 2: of you and Daniel in the relationship and that he 269 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 2: had a sister. Of course, what was that like for 270 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 2: you after the Instagram live and just seeing all of 271 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 2: these reports coming out and knowing that your brother's now 272 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 2: being thrust into the conversation, Like, what was that time 273 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 2: like for you? It was a time. It was a time. 274 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: I remember it was like a weekend and I had 275 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: both my girls at home, and I was like, I 276 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,319 Speaker 1: need to lot myself in the bedroom, like I need 277 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 1: to like read all of these things, like what is 278 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: going on? Because I didn't even know the TikTok dance 279 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: thing that was happening, Like I didn't even know anything that. 280 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 2: Was going on. 281 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: So like, so suddenly to have stuff about Robert out 282 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 1: in the open, and to have the Wilkins family of 283 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: talking about Miranda and wanting to get her out, it 284 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: was like. 285 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, Like, oh my gosh. And then I 286 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 2: was obviously was thinking, where it's Daniel and all of this, 287 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 2: We'll be right back after the break, welcome back to 288 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 2: forgive me for I have followed. So while we were 289 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 2: filming the documentary, while we were in this process in 290 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 2: real time, Daniel and Chloe Leaf which is seen in 291 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 2: the documentary, and we did reach out to them and Ultimately, 292 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 2: they decided not to participate in the documentary, which is 293 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 2: totally understandable. Everyone has to do it and speak about 294 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 2: it on their own time. What was that like for 295 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 2: you when you had heard that they had left. 296 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: So when everything was coming out with the social media 297 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: and then Katie Joy, she was posting all this information 298 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: that I've been wanting to know for so many years, 299 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: and now suddenly like, who's this person who has all 300 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: this information, and like maybe she can find out about 301 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: like Daniel. And so I reached out to her and 302 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: we started talking and she would tell me like stuff 303 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: that she was uncovering in her investigations, and I just 304 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: wanted to know if my brother was okay. And I 305 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: don't know if she had suggested it, but that post 306 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: that she had made that was from me. She let 307 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: me use her platform, you know, it was the pictures 308 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: of me and Daniel, and I just wanted to just 309 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: get a message to him and tell him that, you know, 310 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: I love you, I'm here. You know, I've always been here, 311 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: Like if you need to leave, we're here, we love you, 312 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: we miss you, Like I don't know what else, you know. 313 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: I got a message from him, like a day after 314 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: that post and that was you know, again almost seven 315 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: eight years not hearing from him. 316 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 2: So I was obviously upset. 317 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: But happy and like it was another overwhelm of emotion 318 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: like I'm angry and sad, but I love you. I'm 319 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: so happy, Like how dare you? Don't ever talk to 320 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: me again? But don't ever do this to me again. 321 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: It was like, you know, like who are you? 322 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 2: Like are you my brother? Like is this really you? 323 00:15:57,880 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: Like you know, I have all of the thoughts like 324 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: suspicious and like who's telling you to do this? Like 325 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: why are you contacting me now? Like is it because 326 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: I made that post? Like well, I guess it worked then, 327 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: Like I mean if I knew that just thinking an 328 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: Instagram post would have I don't know that. He was 329 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: just telling me careful because of all the stuff that's 330 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: going on, like everything being like exposed now. And it 331 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: was shortly after when I discovered him and Chloe were 332 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: planning their exit. He wanted to meet up for the 333 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: first time, and I had all of the suspicions still, 334 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: like is Robert trying to lure me away? Like I 335 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: had to think of all the things. I was like, 336 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: am I in danger? But it was just for like 337 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: a week or more. Like I was just a wreck 338 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: because I never imagined, like in my life that I 339 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: would ever tell my brother, no, I can't meet you, 340 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: because I had been wanting to just see him this 341 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: whole time. And it was like a sharp, burning, scouting, 342 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: hot knife, like going through my body, like over and 343 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: over having to tell and like no, like I can't 344 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: meet you because like I don't know, like what if 345 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: Robert's around the corner. So at that time, I felt 346 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 1: like maybe I should just wait a little bit. 347 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 3: So at what point did you realize that Daniel was 348 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 3: actually getting away from these people. 349 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: They actually did end up seeing each other for the 350 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: first time a few weeks after the time I had 351 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: rejected seeing him, and they came over, and it took 352 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: me a minute to like feel fully like comfortable after 353 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: the second or third time, and you know, after talking 354 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: to them, I was able to fully trust that they 355 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 1: had left. I could see it in their mannerisms and 356 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: when they would talk, you know, the realization coming to 357 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: them as they would talk about Robert and the red 358 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: flags that they didn't see then. But now it's just overwhelming, 359 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: like how just we didn't see it, or just we didn't. 360 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 2: Know, and would you feel comfortable sharing any of the 361 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 2: red flags for them that they may have be shared 362 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 2: at that time, His. 363 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 1: Behavior towards them completely flipped. They could just see more 364 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 1: clearly like his when it be lived our sistic things 365 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: that he would do, basically that you know, he doesn't 366 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,959 Speaker 1: care for anybody or love anybody other than himself, and 367 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: absolutely everything that he does is only for his own 368 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: gain and pleasure and whatever. It doesn't even matter if 369 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 1: you're his own daughter. Basically, you know, if he can't 370 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: use you for what he wants to use you for, 371 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,959 Speaker 1: you're dead to him. And so I think that's what 372 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: was just more apparent to them when they were trying 373 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: to make their exit. 374 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 2: Since he's been out, how's that relationship with your brother? 375 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 2: He lives far away, not far away, but you know, 376 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 2: he doesn't live near me. When he told me that 377 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 2: he was planning on moving maybe they had been out 378 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 2: for six months. Were you seeing him a lot before 379 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 2: they moved away. 380 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, At the time, they were living close to my 381 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: parents and so we would see them weekly. So it 382 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: was nice and it was also interesting too because it 383 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 1: was like I could see the real Daniel like coming out. 384 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 1: It was overwhelming for me because then I would think about, 385 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: you know, all the years that were taken from us, 386 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: and like then he you know, decided to move away, 387 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 1: which also he said was the first time in his 388 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: basically his whole adult life from being eighteen, that he 389 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,360 Speaker 1: made a decision on his own. As painful and as 390 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 1: sad as I was to, you know, have him tell 391 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: me that he was now going to be moving I 392 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: was also like happy for him, but then also I'm 393 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: just so mad and sad. It like messed me up 394 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: for a while just thinking about how him, as an 395 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: adult at forty forty one, is now making a decision 396 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: for the first time in his life on his own, 397 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,679 Speaker 1: without anybody else's influence. This is what he's deciding to 398 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,640 Speaker 1: do because he wants to. This is what he wants 399 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 1: to do with his life. 400 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 3: And it's so powerful and just like a big testament 401 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 3: to his healing, because I know that's been a big 402 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 3: issue for a lot of people, especially to people that 403 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 3: have been in Chikina for multiple years, of like being 404 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 3: able to make the choices on your own. And yeah, I'm. 405 00:19:58,480 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 2: Really happy to hear that. 406 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 3: It sounds like he's moving forward and taking the time 407 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 3: to heal. 408 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 2: You're listening to forgive me for I have followed. We'll 409 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 2: be right back. Welcome back to forgive me for I 410 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 2: have followed. So, how did you feel about watching the documentary? 411 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 1: Well, when the trailer came out. When I saw the trailer, 412 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: it was like an immediate waterfall of just tears, Like 413 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: I just was like ugly crying, Like it just felt 414 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: so surreal because, you know, something that I've had to 415 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,239 Speaker 1: just keep bottled up to see it now, you know, 416 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: in the documentary and like people other people's stories, and 417 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: to have it out it was just overwhelming. And then 418 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: when I finally did watch it to see the parents 419 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: and how they're being proactive and trying to get their kids, 420 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: and you know, that was like a hard thing for 421 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: me to watch because my parents they didn't do that. 422 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: The way they've been about the whole thing was very like, uh, 423 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: you know, just praying about it. I just felt that 424 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 1: they didn't hear anything that I was saying. So, yeah, 425 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 1: when it came out, I told them right away, like, 426 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: did you guys watch the documentary? Like I told you, 427 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,880 Speaker 1: I'm very thankful to have met you and for your 428 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: honesty and vulnerability and just the reminder that you are 429 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,880 Speaker 1: not alone. I am here if you ever need anything 430 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,640 Speaker 1: or just someone to talk to. And I'm so happy 431 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 1: that you and Daniel and Chloe have reconnected, although not 432 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,879 Speaker 1: in exactly the way that you would hope, it's nice 433 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: to know that that option's there. Yeah, it's got to 434 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: be crazy just living out in the world after being 435 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: in there for so long, but just goad they're not 436 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 1: there anymore. 437 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 3: What is your relationship with him today and that he's away? 438 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 2: Do you talk? 439 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 3: Do you? 440 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 1: We do not very often, like will randomly just text 441 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: each other, like you know, I love you, I miss you, 442 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: thinking about you. They're in a different state, So it's like, 443 00:21:57,920 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: I'm just not good at like keeping in touch with people, 444 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,160 Speaker 1: like unless you're like in front of me, in my face, 445 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 1: Like I can only handle like what I see constantly. 446 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 1: But I'm grateful for just even having that to be 447 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: able to dis communicate with him and with Chloe too. 448 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, you know I kind of want to just 449 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 3: like ask, how do you feel now speaking up about 450 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 3: this and like, you know, this platform is for everyone 451 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 3: involved to like be able to share their story, and 452 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 3: you know, what do you hope comes out of you 453 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 3: speaking today with us. 454 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 2: Like you guys are saying, maybe somebody who maybe knew 455 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 2: me from the past, or that was in Chicino or 456 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 2: that hasn't spoken up, maybe if they wanted to, like share, 457 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 2: Because for me, it definitely is healing to be able 458 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 2: to talk about it and just not feel like I'm 459 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 2: being shushed. There is something very therapeutic about sharing and 460 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 2: also sharing with people that like get it. 461 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a huge thing people that are on 462 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: that level of understanding. Yeah, And that was something my 463 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 1: mom had even had said, like what's your reason for 464 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: doing the podcast or interview thing? You know, you didn't 465 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: even go to Chechina, like you weren't there later on 466 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: and I was like, well, no, I wasn't, but my 467 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: brother was there and it affected our lives like a lot. 468 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: You know, the reach of Robert goes way past the 469 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 1: people that are just in Chicina. You know, he took 470 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: your son away from you for like twenty years, like 471 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 1: in a vulnerable time where you didn't have any other option. 472 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 2: You know. I think that reminder too, because that's one 473 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 2: thing that you mentioned with the parents. It was difficult 474 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 2: to watch the documentary and see that and people don't 475 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 2: understand the impact that it has on the families. And 476 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 2: Khalia you touched on this a little bit too, of 477 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 2: like when you're dying to yourself and you're cutting off 478 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 2: your family thinking that you're doing something great for them, 479 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 2: how difficult it is on the family. We've heard from 480 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,679 Speaker 2: other people that were also in previous episodes of the podcast. 481 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 2: You know, Marilyn shared that like that relationship is still 482 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,479 Speaker 2: being rebuilt. It doesn't just happen overnight. People think that 483 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 2: like they get out, you reconnect with your family and 484 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 2: all is well. There's a lot of hurt that was had, 485 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 2: and I think it's important for family members to speak up. 486 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 2: You are impacted. So yes, you may have not been 487 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 2: in there for as long as you know your brother 488 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 2: or experience things that other people have, but I appreciate 489 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 2: you sharing your feelings about what it was like to 490 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 2: have lost that contact with someone that was pulled into 491 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 2: something like that. So it matters, and your voice deserves 492 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 2: to be heard and it should be heard as well 493 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 2: because it impacted you. So again, thank you, Thank you 494 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 2: for your time and your vulnerability. 495 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 3: Thank you, Yes, and I really wish you and your 496 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 3: family the best and all the healing and the relationships 497 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 3: really gets back to what it needs to be. 498 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 2: Beggars Cross Cross. 499 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 3: I really feel for Leah because we've all heard the 500 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 3: story of how Miranda's sister has felt so now here 501 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 3: we have the opportunity to speak with another sister brother 502 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 3: sister bond, but sibling bond that was affected by their 503 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 3: involvement with this church. I feel for her when she 504 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 3: says that she couldn't really voice it, questions came with consequences. 505 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 3: I'm really grateful. It reminds me of why we sat 506 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 3: down and did this in the first place. And I 507 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 3: think every episode that we do kind of pushes me 508 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 3: forward to want to do more and more and like 509 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 3: open the floor up for the people who need that 510 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 3: healing and want to talk and deserve to have their 511 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 3: voices heard. Absolutely, and I'm excited to see what more 512 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 3: we do and we will be back next week with 513 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 3: another episode of Forgive Me. 514 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 2: For I Have Followed? 515 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 3: Take Care Forgive Me For I Have Followed is a 516 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 3: production from wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's my Kuolta 517 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 3: podcast network, hosted by me Kaliah Gray and me Jess 518 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 3: Cossabetto Give Me For I Have Followed is produced by 519 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 3: Aaron Burlson and Sophie Spencer zabos Our. 520 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 2: Executive producers are Khalia Gray, myself, Wilmar Valderrama, Leo Klam 521 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 2: and Aaron Burlson at WV Sound. 522 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 3: This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original 523 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 3: music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts 524 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 3: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 525 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 3: you listen to your favorite shows. 526 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,400 Speaker 2: See you next week, See you next week,