WEBVTT - And, This The Chaos Within The GOP Featuring Ben Shapiro 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.040 Either to go pull the principle or you don't pull 0:00:02.080 --> 0:00:03.840 the principle. If you don't unap hold the principle, I'm 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:05.920 gonna call you out for not upholding the principle. On 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:09.039 his epitaph, we'll read forty fifth and forty seven President 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:10.920 of the United States, he said, a lot of shit. 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:14.440 Thank story, jurisdictions have lower crime rates. You moved to 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:17.280 a state that has higher insurance, right, higher car insurance, 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:20.000 not just home insurance, has higher property taxes many of 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:20.799 these red states. 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:22.360 And I think that we should start from a position 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:25.319 in the United States of gratitude and recognition that we 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:27.160 live in a free country where the vast majority of 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:32.440 decisions are your own. This is Gavin Newsom, and this 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:38.120 has been Shapiro. All right, Ben Shapiro, welcome, Hey, thanks 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:38.639 for having me. 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:40.559 I love it all the way from Florida. We'll get 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:42.520 to that, you know, moment. 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:44.800 Seem a little bit spicy about it, Yeah, a little 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:45.559 sot well, you know. 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:48.760 Texas, that would have been more spicy. But you know, 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:53.559 especially come on, you're a Hollywood kid, at least Hollywood adjacent. 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:56.800 You'reeah Burbank, born and bred and born in Saint Joe's 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:57.560 in Burbank. 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:00.960 I love that. And well, year nineteen eighty four and 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:03.200 you went, you know you, And it's interesting because you were, 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:05.360 you know, in sort of middle class family, grew up 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:06.960 and I, you know, got a new book we're going 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:10.000 to get to in a moment, Lions and Scavengers. But 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:13.760 in that you talk about your your home where I 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:15.600 think six members of your family living in a two 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:19.640 bedroom home, one bathroom Burbank, California, and you describe it, 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:22.039 at least briefly as pretty Bucolic. 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:23.880 Yeah, it was great. It was great. I mean, Burbank 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:25.320 was a great place to grow up. It was like 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:27.720 kids playing in the street. And I had the greatest 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:29.680 privilege of all. Right, I'm an American growing up in 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:31.280 the greatest country and the history of the world. And 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:33.640 I've got a two parent household. My parents love each 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:35.080 other and they take care of us, and they're able 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:37.600 to make a middle class income. My mom started off 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:40.080 as a secretary and worked her way up to become 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:42.640 vice president of a small film and TV company. My 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:44.720 dad came out here to be a composer, and he 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:48.720 ended up playing piano at a restaurant on venturable of 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:51.160 var I believe it was in or actually it was 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:53.440 it was in across from Universal Studios. It was the 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:54.600 Mitchell's over there. 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:57.560 Like a five night a week piano guy. 0:01:57.760 --> 0:01:58.800 A couple of nights a week, you go in there 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:01.000 and play jazz piano because since he was fourteen and 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:04.600 so that's that's how I grew up. And you know again, 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:07.640 I think that that's the American dreams. You start there 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:09.880 and then you end up making a better life for 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:11.760 your kids, and they end up making a better life 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:14.679 for themselves, and that upper trajectory is is kind of 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:15.520 what America is all about. 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:17.080 I love it. How many brothers and sisters? 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:19.520 So I have three younger sisters, three younger sisters, three 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:20.040 younger sisters. 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:23.320 Were they music because you were? You were a violinist, right, Yeah. 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:25.600 I started playing violin when I was five, and then 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:28.200 I was pretty good. I mean I was it. 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:30.720 You were. It was your dad just saying you're going, son, 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:33.040 you will be. I mean they threw that at you 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:34.640 and they made you and your crying. 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:35.800 No, it definitely wasn't there. 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:36.400 You loved No. 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:38.880 I I was pretty dedicated to it, for sure. I 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:41.360 was practicing by the time I was sixteen. Maybe three 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:43.840 hours a day or something. And then I looked at 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:46.760 at sort of the life of musician, and I thought, well, 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:52.400 again that upper trajectory is very difficult, particularly in classical music, 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:55.000 and I thought, you know, maybe I better shift career 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:57.120 strategies here. But when I went to UCLA, or I 0:02:57.120 --> 0:02:59.480 went to UCLA for undergrad When I went to UCLA 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:01.760 extent at the time, my parents didn't want me going 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:03.400 out of state for school. So I was living at 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:07.240 home sixteen, and I thought I was going to double 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:12.520 major in biology and in music. Actually, and I got 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:15.640 on campus and I found myself drawn to politics. And yeah, 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:16.880 the rest is I want. 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:18.440 To get back to that a little bit more about 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:20.520 How about your sisters? What where did they end up 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:23.280 in terms of their professional pursuits and careers. 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:26.880 So all of us grew up obviously here, only one 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:28.880 is still here. I still have one sister who lives 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:32.280 in Orange County. I have a couple of sisters who 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:34.400 live within a mile and a half of me in Florida. 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:36.480 So basically the whole family ended up in Florida. My 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:38.240 parents ended up near me in Florida. My in laws, 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:41.640 who lived in Sacramento ended up near me in Florida. Yeah, 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:43.320 there may be some reasons for that, Governor. 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:45.040 We'll get to that. We're going to get to all 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:46.640 of that and a lot more. I just want to 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:48.680 paint the picture a little bit of camptriciated. Not everybody 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:51.120 knows your child, but also connected. I mean, as you said, 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:53.600 UCLA undergrad and then your interests. 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:55.280 My wife went U SA LA Medical School. I mean 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:56.800 we're very California ambedded. 0:03:56.920 --> 0:04:00.400 I love that. But politics had its calling there. Would 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:02.800 you remember sort of a moment or issues or was 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:05.040 politics part of the even your child, it was a 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:07.760 part of the conversation around the dinner table. Were your 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:09.080 parents politically active. 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:11.040 And they weren't super politically active. I would say they 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:14.800 were kind of Reagan Republicans, and you know, growing up 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:17.080 we talk politics in the house. But the thing that 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:19.839 sort of sent me in a political direction overtly is 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:22.479 I got to college campus at UCLA and I picked 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:24.440 up a copy of the UCLA Daily Bruin. And this 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:27.440 is back in the year two thousand. There was an 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:32.920 editorial from the Bruin editorial board, I believe, comparing Ariol 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:34.840 Scheron than the Prime Minister of Israel who in two 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:37.440 thousand and one, I guess to Aolf Eichmann, the Nazi, 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:39.400 and so I walked in and I said, I'd like 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:41.560 to write a counter to that, and that turned into 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:43.600 a point counterpoint column that I would write every week. 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:46.000 That became pretty popular. It turned into kind of a 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:47.800 normal column. And then I went to my father one 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:49.599 day and I said, do you think that my stuff 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:51.719 is good enough to be published in like a normal paper? 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:53.440 And he said, you know, it might be. Let me 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:55.760 do some research. So he found this place called Creator 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:59.240 Syndicate again out of California, and they syndicate a bunch 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:02.080 of columns to for newspapers around the country. At the time, 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:04.240 it was everybody from Molly Ivans on the left to 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:07.240 David Limbaugh on the right. And so I applied cold 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:08.960 and they called me three weeks later. I was seventeen 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:11.080 and they said, we'd love you to write a syndicated column. 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:12.760 So pretty much all of my bad ideas since I 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:14.800 was seventeen have been public, which is, you know, an 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:15.880 interesting way to live for sure. 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:19.240 S seventeen, I mean, that's pretty remarkable that young age, 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:21.880 you have a syndicated national column. And a few years later, 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:24.920 twenty you have published what two books? 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:27.159 So you write? My first book came out when I 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:30.839 was twenty from It was sort of an expose of 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:33.880 leftism on college campuses. I think some might say it 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:36.680 was a little ahead of its time. And then I 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:38.640 went to Harvard Law School at twenty and I wrote 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:40.720 a couple of more books while I was at Harvard Law. 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:43.440 And when I came out, I came back to LA 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:46.400 and I practiced at a real estate firm or real 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:49.120 estate wing of a major law firm called Goodwin Proctor. 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:51.560 I practiced there. I lasted for about ten months, decided 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:54.800 I hate it quit. I remember walking into the boss's 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:56.360 office and saying, I hate it here and I want 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:58.840 to leave. And I remember him turning to me and saying, 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:00.440 you're never going to make as much mone needs you're 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:03.160 making right now. And I've been wanting to send them 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:07.720 some tax returns for now. But you know, it all 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:10.160 worked out. Politics was something that I was always very 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:12.800 invested in, and so my sort of political approach generally 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:17.039 is that I'm much more invested in principles than personalities. 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:19.880 I care much more about the ideas than I do 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:24.600 about sort of the the gossip aspect of politics. I 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:29.440 think that that's unfortunately becoming less common. I think that 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:30.960 you know, it's great that you're having me on. I 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:33.040 really appreciate that. I like the exchange of ideas. I've 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:36.120 always liked the exchange of ideas, and so that's that's 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:38.800 still I hope when animates may when animates the. 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:41.280 Show love that. What I mean, you're you're obviously known 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:43.080 as you know, I mean, people have described you in 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:47.160 so many different ways, but debate brow I mean, is 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:51.160 there a quick wits I mean, obviously next level intellect 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:55.039 ability to quickly distill facts and figures. You talk about 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:57.440 facts over emotion, et cetera. But were you that person 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:00.480 in high school? Were you that person in middle score? 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:00.760 Did that? 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:02.880 That's pretty combative? In high school, I would say I'd 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:04.800 skipped a couple of grades. So I skipped third and 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:07.560 I skip ninth. Wow, And so I was much younger, 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:10.240 and much shorter, and much skinnier, and much more of 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:12.200 a wise the ass probably in some of the other 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:15.080 kids in my high school class, and so high school 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:18.360 was not exactly a joy for that reason. But I've 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:22.440 said before that obviously bullying is terrible, but being bullied 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:24.520 can be sort of a make or break situation for you, 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:26.840 meaning that a lot of the people that I know 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:29.680 who are very successful went through a lot of adversity 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:33.040 in that age range, and then you sort of develop 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:35.760 an attitude, and the attitude is okay, I can either 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:39.000 use this as fuel and grist for the mill and say, listen, 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:42.080 I'm going to take all that negativity and channel it 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:46.200 toward you know, more strength and more positivity and building 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:48.160 and maybe you get a little bit of a chip 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:50.280 on your shoulder sometimes or you can kind of let 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:51.240 it break it down. 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:53.600 Do you remember, I mean some of the specific instances 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:56.880 where you sort of you had that kind of exchange. 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:00.680 Where was it political? Was it? Because I mean the 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:03.920 fact you're always younger, a little bit smarter, maybe you're 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:06.600 quick witted. I mean, was do you remember political? 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:09.680 Interpersonal? But I remember, you know, being the kind of 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:12.040 kid who when I was sixteen years old, there was 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:17.880 a program at the UC system that was all about 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:20.800 affirmative action at the UC system. I remember there were 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:24.080 about a thousand people who were protesting down in the 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:26.320 plaza or there, and I believe I was the only 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:28.920 counter protester interesting and I would show up in and 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:29.920 do that that sort of stuff. 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:32.199 Did you have you have the was it the confidence 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:33.839 or was the gumption? What was it? I mean, was 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:36.960 it something your parents distilled in you just stand up 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:37.840 for ideals? Striking? 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:39.600 I think it was more stand up for ideals. But 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:42.120 but also you know, from the time that I was young, 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:45.360 I never had any problem with being in crowds or 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:49.240 being in front of people or yeah, exactly, I played violin, 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:50.600 and so if if you spend a lot of time 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:54.440 playing you know, a rigorous sort of set of pieces 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:56.600 in front of people, and you do that over and 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:58.560 over and over, it kind of gets rid of whatever 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:01.199 trepidation you might have in front of people and doing 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:02.040 that sort when did you. 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:03.960 Was there a moment when you sort of developed a 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:06.480 next level confidence you're like, wait, I'm pretty good at 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:07.760 this or was it the writing. 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:10.160 That was doing you know, I'm not sure. I will 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:12.680 say I don't think that it's ever good to develop 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:15.560 next level confidence, meaning I think you got to prep 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:17.719 for everything. One of the things that I try to 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:20.040 do is really over prepare for my show. If I'm 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:21.880 going to have a debate or a discussion with somebody, 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:25.080 I really try to dig in and get into what's 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:29.040 true what's not true. I would much rather be overprepared. 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:31.920 I think there's a certain level of insecurity that's good. 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:32.280 Yeah. 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:34.679 I think when you're overconfident, that's when you made mistakes. 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:36.360 I think in my career, whenever I've made a mistake, 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:39.600 it's typically because I didn't take a challenge seriously enough 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:41.360 or I sort of brushed it off. Yeah, and you 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:42.800 see that happen. A lot of people sort of rely 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:45.559 on their native intelligence as opposed to assuming that you're 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:47.520 not going to be the smartest person in the room 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:49.480 all the time. Remember when I was in middle school, 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:51.880 so some went to Walter Reed in North Hollywood, and 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.320 they had a Magnet school, like a highly gifted program. 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:56.679 And I remember there was an IQ test actually kind 0:09:56.720 --> 0:09:59.280 of a rudimentary IQ test that was the baseline to 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:02.360 get in. And I got in, but I didn't get 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:05.959 in leaps and bounds, and we you know, I remember 0:10:05.960 --> 0:10:08.160 first day of class, everybody's kind of passing around their 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:09.840 IQ scores and all this kind of stuff, and one 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:13.600 girl had had above one eighty, really really really high IQ. 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:15.680 And I remember going back home and talking to my 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:17.840 father about it. He said, listen, you should assume that 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:19.480 you're never the smartest person in the room, but you 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:21.360 can always be the hardest working person in the room. 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:23.800 I love that, and that I think has been sort 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:24.240 of the motto. 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:27.640 I love it. So you went, you know, UCLA undergrad. 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:31.000 Here you are seventeen national syndicated columnists. A few years 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:34.880 later he got two published books about issues around the universe. 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:36.640 As you say, you may have been a step or 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:39.120 two ahead of most in that respect, and then issues 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:42.160 around I mean, it was interesting, is the porn industry 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:42.880 broadly defined it? 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.679 Yeah. I was writing books about how the pornography industry 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:49.200 was going to really carve out, particularly young men's souls 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:51.200 in about two thousand and five, and at the time 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:53.199 people were saying, oh, this is crazy. What is he 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:55.440 talking about now? Of course, I think that there are 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:57.080 a lot of young men who have fallen prey to 0:10:57.200 --> 0:11:02.000 that industry, who needs less family formation and less general happiness, 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:05.679 less sex, Actually people who are kind of falling out 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:09.480 of the social fabric that's necessary to build societies. I 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:11.160 was calling that out in about two thousand, so to. 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:12.960 Say, even in my state of the state last week, 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:15.959 I referenced just one of many different statistics but roughly 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:18.880 half of young men have never asked a woman out 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:22.280 in person on a date. So your point emphasis and 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:24.480 that and we I want to unpack that a little 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:26.480 bit later as well in the conversation. But you started 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:30.400 then to not only identify yourself in the context of 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:34.360 your intellectual pursuits and expressing your point of view through 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:37.680 writing also sort of gifted capacity to engage in debate 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:41.680 and speech. But then you found Andrew Breitbart was out 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:46.040 and about in southern California, and you took a job 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:47.880 there working at Breitbart. 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:51.080 That went in twenty twelve. During the twenty twelve election, 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:55.720 I joined Brightbart. I'd known Andrew actually since my UCLA days, 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:58.160 so I'd known him already for quite a number of years. 0:11:58.280 --> 0:11:59.160 What did you think of Andrew? 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:01.240 A lot of Andrews and so I think that there's 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:03.040 sort of that. I mean, you're in public life, so 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:04.640 you know, there's for a lot of people that are 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:06.440 sort of like the private person, there's the public person. 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:09.080 They're not quite the same. So Andrew, the private person 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:11.319 in the public person were actually very much the same, 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:14.200 I would say up until the end. Toward the end, 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:18.120 I think that Andrew became very frustrated with a lot 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:20.720 of the political system media coverage. But the truth is 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:23.480 that Andrew was, for the vast majority of the time 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:26.040 I knew him, very garrulous, willing to have conversations with 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:27.800 nearly anyone. I think that if you talk to people 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:29.720 who knew Andrew really well, they're their best memories of 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:32.480 him are things like him just rollerblading in Venice and 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:35.120 then just having like political conversations, taking somebody to coffee 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:37.240 like a random person. What I used to say to 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:40.760 people about Andrew is that I knew Andrew for over 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:43.760 a decade before he passed away, and if you knew 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:45.520 Andrew for five minutes, you knew him about ninety five 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:47.400 percent as well as I did, because he was just 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:49.800 very much there, Like he was just on the surface 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:52.240 everything that what you saw is what you got with Andrew. 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:54.960 So yeah, I joined Bright Barton in about two thousand 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:58.120 and twelve, who was during the Romney the Romney Obama 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.480 election cycle. I was there for a few years. I 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:04.559 believe I ended up leaving in two thousand and sixteen, 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:06.600 like early twenty sixteen. There had been some sort of 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:08.960 career transitions there in which I was taking other jobs 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:12.400 at the same time. There's a point again going under 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:15.280 that sort of working hard rubric. There's one which I 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:17.280 was working effectively for jobs. I was doing a morning 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:19.559 show in la where I interviewed you, actually, and then 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:22.360 there was an afternoon show that I was doing in Seattle, 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:24.160 so has six hours of radio day. I was the 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:26.520 editor at larger Brightbart, which meant writing a piece or 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:29.040 two a day for Breitbart, and then I had also 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:30.640 taken a job as the editor in chief of a 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:32.880 website called truth Revolt for the David Horwitz Freedom Center. 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:36.480 So I was working for jobs simultaneously. And yeah, again, 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:40.520 my advice to young people particularly want to be successful, 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:42.960 say yes to doing everything, even if it's for free 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:45.280 at the beginning, because eventually saying yes a lot gets 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:47.280 you the power to say no later on in your 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:49.559 career when you can sort of winnow down what will 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:50.960 make you successful. 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:52.240 And people A lot of folks know this, but a 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:54.720 lot of folks don't. Steve Bannon was down there working 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:57.959 by Bard at the time you guys got along. Initially. 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:01.960 I know the beginning, and Steve is not the easiest 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:05.840 person too. I will say that we'll talk a little 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:06.800 bit more, just briefly. 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:09.960 I don't want to over index with Steve, but so 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:13.640 you left in twy sixteen, but twenty fifteen you more 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:17.520 formally established what more commonly is identified with the Day 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:18.120 to call it, right. 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:19.800 I mean it was it was Daily Wires, right, So 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:25.160 Daily Wire we established formally in twenty so it would 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:26.840 have been in the middle of the primary, so it 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:29.960 had been twenty sixteen. That's when we formally launched. Was 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:33.840 a few months before the election of twenty sixteen. I'd 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:35.680 been working at the David Horwitz Freedom Center. It was 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:38.240 kind of a funny story there where we had Jeremy 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:41.880 Boring and I who are business partners. He'd been working 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:45.440 there and he basically hit upon what was a social 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:48.200 media arbitrage plan. He basically saw that you could market 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:50.080 on social media in new ways and that would bring 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:52.680 you traffic. And we proposed this to the board. They 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:55.080 legitimately did not understand what we were talking about, because 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.400 boards of nonprofits are famously, you know, sort of elderly 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:01.680 and non tech involved, and so we made a presentation. 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:05.440 Jeremy was kind of fondly known as the as the 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:08.720 Stupid Whisperer because we'd met with many congress people, and 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:13.400 I speak quickly, and Jeremy spoke slowly with the Southern accent, 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:15.960 and so he would very often get across better see 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:19.040 those congress people who shall remain unnamed. Anyway, we met 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:21.480 with the board, Jeremy sort of explained the marketing plan. 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:23.400 They had no idea what he was talking about. They 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:24.920 turned to me and they said, Ben, can you explain 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:27.440 the marketing plan? I said, sure, very easy. I was 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:29.440 frustrated by this point, so I took out a napkin 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:35.760 and I wrote on it dollar sign arrow, Facebook, arrow, website, 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:38.200 arrow back to dollars in your book. Yeah, exactly. And 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:40.120 that was the marketing plan, right. It was that you're 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:42.480 going to spend money on social media in order to 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:45.880 gain eyeballs. Those eyeballs would then provide advertising on your website, 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:48.760 and then you would just direct that money back into Facebook. 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:52.120 And so it's kind of a flywheel. And they fired 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:54.880 Jeremy the next day. I quit a couple of days later, 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:57.280 and then we basically took that plan out to market. 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:00.440 We found a little bit of seed funding, five million 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:04.240 dollars in seed funding originally, and we launched daily Wire, 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:07.400 which last year did two hundred million dollars plus in revenue. 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:09.520 How many how many employees now daily we. 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:12.600 Have about two hundred and twenty employees. Wow at daily ware. 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:14.720 And you guys are doing the I mean, well we 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:18.920 can talk more specifically, but I mean it's documentaries, it's movies. Yes, 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:21.080 it's all this show. I mean, it's a whole suite 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:21.600 of Yeah. 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:25.000 We tried to turn it into a semi major media company. Right, 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:27.680 it's probably the second biggest conservative media company in the 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:28.520 country after Fox. 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:30.560 So at the time, who were your mentors who were 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:32.240 looking up to at the time? Who did you want 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:32.600 to become? 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:32.760 Was? 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:35.520 I mean Andrew obviously had a big impact, I assume 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:37.920 in terms of your trajectory. Who else was out there 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.080 you were watching? Was it the limbas of the world? 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:42.120 Was it the savages of the world? Who? I mean 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:42.760 on radio? 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:44.840 So I think it was sort of a different thing 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:47.960 in every industry. So from a sort of ideological point 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:49.960 of view, just being a great writer, be people like 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:52.680 Charles Crowdhammer, Yeah, which, of course I love the writing. 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:54.600 That's actually my favorite thing that I do because I 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:56.560 can sit there, organize my thoughts and I happen to 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:59.960 write incredibly quickly. So that's that's very nice. And then 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:03.200 you know, from a from a you know, radio or 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:05.480 podcast point of view, obviously Rush Russia is sort of 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:08.520 the granddaddy was all in this industry. And so Rush 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:10.159 was the guy who I grew up listening to on 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:13.560 talk radio, you know him, Larry Elderly, everybody who's sort 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:15.280 of in the LA radio sphere when I was growing up. 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:18.800 And then in sort of social media land, obviously Andrew 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:21.240 was a major force in sort of showing what you 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:24.320 could do in the in the new media. And so 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:26.359 I would say that that triumph, it would be a 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:27.879 pretty good way of defining. 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:29.520 What else and were you inspired? I mean at the time, 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.879 just even beyond those examples where there are books you 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:35.480 were reading at the time, periodicals that really inspired. 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:37.719 So I read incessantly. I've been reading three to five 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:39.800 books a week since I was probably old enough to 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:42.520 read wow. So you know, the books that I was 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:45.399 reading on economics were things like hyek. 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:45.600 Right. 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:48.399 I spent actually less time engaging, I would say, with 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:52.320 you know, the the non traditional media space that I 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:56.320 do engaging with books and great ideas. I hope, I 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:58.520 mean that that's where I'd like to spend my time. Also, 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:01.080 you know, I'm lucky. From Friday night to Saturday night. 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:03.600 I can't engage with media, right I'm Northodox Jews, so 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:06.720 all of the electricity goes away, And so I read 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:08.399 a lot of books. You know, if you are now 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:09.920 then I used to because I have four kids now. 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:13.240 But that means that if I want to. What's great 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:15.280 about that, for what I do is that if a 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:17.080 topic comes up in the news, I have a pretty 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:19.760 good memory bank to draw on in terms of a 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:22.360 baseline of knowledge that I can then supplement with sort 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:25.960 of further research. But I have a very strongly defined 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:29.280 kind of worldview about everything from economics to foreign policy 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:32.359 to social policy that I hope is rooted in some 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:35.640 fundamental values, which means that I would say my level 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:38.960 of political consistency has been pretty high over the course 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:42.120 the last couple of decades. And forty two, that's turn 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:44.119 forty two years old this week, and I've been in 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:47.040 this industry for a quarter century. I started writing at seventeen, 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:50.160 and if you read stuff from when I'm seventeen, if 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:52.480 it wasn't highly dumb, which some of it is, but 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:54.280 if you were to find a column I wrote when 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:55.600 I was twenty three, and it wasn't one of the 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:57.240 ones that was like trying to get attention and look 0:18:57.240 --> 0:18:59.320 at me. If it was one of my more serious columns, 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:00.840 you'd probably look like lot like the stuff that I'm 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:01.359 saying today. 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:06.240 What do you make of the current media landscape? I mean, 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:08.439 it seems to be the sort of dialectic between the 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:10.679 old and the new, sort of the digital first and 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:14.920 these legacy media companies and obviously podcasts becoming at least 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:17.199 part of the normal. It's a conversation. I don't know. 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:20.800 We can get into the merits to merits of overstating 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:24.560 or over indexing podcast influence, but so much of what 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:28.160 you seeded and influenced in terms of the right wing 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:31.600 media even now in some respects what folks are trying 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:35.000 to replicate with more progressive media voices. What do you 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:37.679 make of the landscape today? How would you describe the 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:38.440 current landscape. 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:40.760 I'm highly fragmented. I think in some ways that's good. 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:43.320 I think in some ways that's bad. It's had tremendous 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:46.320 benefits in the sense that you don't have three networks 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:48.240 and you have to rely on just those three networks, 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:50.840 you can in real time fact check things. It's bad 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:54.680 in the sense that, while gatekeeping is difficult and obviously 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:58.560 can silo off information that you need to have, if 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:02.199 you have people who are algorithmically driven or desperate for 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:04.560 clicks and desperate for attention and don't seem to carry 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:06.919 very much about the truth, and if there's kind of 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:09.639 no pushback, then bad information can spin its way around 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:12.399 very very quickly, and it doesn't take long for people 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:16.000 to draw extremely hard narratives about I would say, convoluted 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:19.280 sets of facts. And I think that you know, frankly, 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:24.119 politicians sometimes have a position in doing this because if 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:26.919 you're catering to a base, and obviously an everybody has 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:29.639 to be aware of audience capture. In my industry, in politics, 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:31.640 you have to be very aware of audience capture because 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.000 you need to win votes. But I mean, just to 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:36.639 take as a recent example what happened in Minneapolis, I 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:39.480 think that the enormy response to what happened in Minneapolis 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:42.680 is this is obviously a tragedy. From a sort of 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:47.920 legal perspective, putting on my lawyer hat, the intent of 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:50.560 renee Good is not relevant to the question of the 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:52.199 intent of the officer. Right if you're going to if 0:20:52.200 --> 0:20:54.240 you're going to prosecute the officer, then you'd have to 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:58.439 determine whether an objective reasonable officer would have perceived that 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:00.679 he was being threatened by her vehicle when when he 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:02.080 shot her. And it seems to me that you could, 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:04.720 you could voice a fairly strong defense in a court 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:07.520 of law that an objectively reasonable offster, since he actually 0:21:07.560 --> 0:21:09.840 was nudged with the car at the very least, would 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:12.280 would have perceived it that way. Now, this immediately broke 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:15.120 down into two separate narratives, both of which I think 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:18.600 are untrue. One was a narrative that was immediately pushed 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:21.600 by the Trump administration and Secretary of Homeland Security Christino 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:23.600 and that she was a domestic terrorist who's attempting to 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:27.080 run over officers with her car and was legitimately trying 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:29.440 not not just this officer, but multiple officers. That was 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:31.560 the original statement I said at the time. I thought 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:35.280 that was untrue. And then your press office tweeted out 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:38.960 that it was state sponsored terrorism, which I mean, Governor, 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:41.400 I have to ask you about that that that sort 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:44.520 of thing makes our politics worse. I mean it does, 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:48.280 and our ice officers obviously are not terrorists. A tragic 0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:52.720 situation is not state sponsored terrorism. When it comes to ICE, 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:55.520 I mean, I'll ask you this just generally about policy 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:58.199 with REGARDIS, because obviously it's become incredibly contentious given what 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:02.040 the federal government is doing. In states like California, it 0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:03.480 seems to me that there have been a number of 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:07.119 deportations from red states where there are governors in localities 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:10.560 working with ICE. California is a sanctuary state, which makes 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:13.240 it much more difficult for local law enforcement to hand 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:17.920 over information to ICE about deportation status. What's the purpose 0:22:17.920 --> 0:22:20.480 of that? Wouldn't best policy? You're pragmatic, You talk about 0:22:20.480 --> 0:22:23.199 your pragmatism all the time. Wouldn't best policy be to 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:26.080 cooperate with ICE in the vast majority of cases? So 0:22:26.160 --> 0:22:28.240 instead of ICE going to, as you say, hospitals and 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:29.560 churches to f pike people up, they be going to 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:30.119 jail houses. 0:22:30.520 --> 0:22:32.280 That's exactly what they do in California, And we have 0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:34.639 over ten thousand that I've cooperated with since I've been 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:38.680 governor of California. We worked very directly with ICE as 0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:43.399 it relates to CDCR state prison. Californias cooperated with more 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:46.639 ICE transfers probably than any other state in the country, 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:49.560 and I've vetoed multiple pieces of legislation that have come 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:52.440 from my legislature to stop the ability for the state 0:22:52.480 --> 0:22:54.520 of California to do that. So, when it comes to 0:22:54.520 --> 0:22:57.080 the issues of violent criminals, when it comes to Falon's 0:22:57.119 --> 0:23:00.840 people that are being released from the largest state system 0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:04.520 in the United States of America, California cooperates with ICE. 0:23:04.600 --> 0:23:06.800 Okay, But why is it then? What makes it a 0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:07.520 sanctuary state. 0:23:08.160 --> 0:23:11.159 Well, the broader sanctuary policies that are established, and we 0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:13.760 had a policy it was established under Governor Brown SB. 0:23:13.880 --> 0:23:16.960 Fifty four. You have city sanctuary policies that go back 0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:20.119 quite literally to the time Ronald Reagan was governor, and 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:22.400 it relates to some of the issues in Central America 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:24.959 sort of the origin stories. But at bottom line, it 0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:29.040 relates to those policies. This notion that federal law should 0:23:29.040 --> 0:23:32.000 be enforced by federal law enforcement agencies, that we should 0:23:32.000 --> 0:23:36.720 not consign local law enforcement to federal responsibilities and prioritization. 0:23:36.200 --> 0:23:38.280 Right, we shouldn't the states step in with localities and 0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:40.880 tell localities that they ought to cooperate better with ICE. 0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:42.520 Thus to facilitate well, you. 0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:45.040 Know, I have sort of Rudy Giuliani's point of view, 0:23:45.080 --> 0:23:47.879 who made the point as an advocate for sanctuary policy 0:23:47.880 --> 0:23:49.879 when he was mayor of New York. He said, it 0:23:49.960 --> 0:23:52.959 keeps people safer, healthier, and more educated. Safer in the 0:23:52.960 --> 0:23:56.080 context that it allows community members to be more likely 0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:58.639 to participate as witnesses of crime or victims of crime 0:23:59.240 --> 0:24:02.159 in going after the perpetrators, more likely to get an 0:24:02.200 --> 0:24:04.560 immunization shot if they're not worried about the nurse turning 0:24:04.560 --> 0:24:07.479 them over to ice, more likely to go to school 0:24:07.520 --> 0:24:09.920 and get educated if they're not worried about the school 0:24:09.960 --> 0:24:14.080 crossing guard crossing them and ultimately turning them over to ice. 0:24:14.119 --> 0:24:18.360 So it's the tool of pragmatism because of the complete 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:21.359 abject failure of the federal government. A sanctuary policy is 0:24:21.400 --> 0:24:24.439 unnecessary if we had comprehensive immigration reform and we had 0:24:24.440 --> 0:24:26.840 a federal response that was adequate to the task. But 0:24:26.880 --> 0:24:29.760 in the absen of that, it's grown from the seventies 0:24:29.760 --> 0:24:33.080 and eighties and nineties two thousands, and obviously I got 0:24:33.080 --> 0:24:36.119 here as governor, and we had an established framework before 0:24:36.160 --> 0:24:36.640 I got here. 0:24:37.400 --> 0:24:39.800 It is true that sanctuary policy obviously has had a 0:24:39.840 --> 0:24:43.320 massive impact as a driver of tremendous number of illegal 0:24:43.320 --> 0:24:45.200 immigrants in the state of California. 0:24:45.200 --> 0:24:46.800 I don't know about that. I mean, you see in 0:24:46.920 --> 0:24:49.520 a lot of states that don't have sanctuary policies, huge 0:24:50.080 --> 0:24:55.560 increase in immigration, illegal immigration, massive increases, even far greater 0:24:55.640 --> 0:24:56.680 than the state of California. 0:24:56.760 --> 0:24:58.480 Just look as in terms of the cost structure. I 0:24:58.480 --> 0:25:01.320 mean you recently, for example, had to freeze the enrollment 0:25:01.600 --> 0:25:06.280 of undocumented immigrants in state health systems to save money. 0:25:06.359 --> 0:25:10.560 Right, That's that's a separate issue. There twelve states that 0:25:10.600 --> 0:25:12.840 provide health care for undocs, and we believe in universal 0:25:12.840 --> 0:25:14.320 health care regardless. Break is a condition. 0:25:15.080 --> 0:25:17.399 The colst structures extraordinarily burdensome. 0:25:17.680 --> 0:25:20.560 But I don't think it's in unpacking it. I don't 0:25:20.560 --> 0:25:24.439 think it's a sanctuary policies that are driving that. And 0:25:24.480 --> 0:25:27.280 I give you a proof point. Florida don't have sanctuary policy, 0:25:27.280 --> 0:25:32.400 a huge increase in undocumented community, huge increase in Texas. 0:25:32.440 --> 0:25:35.439 It's not a driver. They're sanctuary policies. They don't have 0:25:35.480 --> 0:25:40.359 sanctuary policies in those states. The State of California's policies, 0:25:40.600 --> 0:25:45.280 I don't think in that respect have invited people into 0:25:45.320 --> 0:25:48.000 our state. And I use those as I think proof 0:25:48.040 --> 0:25:50.080 points of that, and that's a difference. So the notion 0:25:50.160 --> 0:25:51.920 of how do you deal with people that are here 0:25:51.960 --> 0:25:54.720 ten fifteen years, how do you deal with mixed status 0:25:54.760 --> 0:25:57.280 families in this state, and how do you provide for 0:25:57.400 --> 0:26:01.840 health care as opposed to emergency care and stabilized populations 0:26:01.840 --> 0:26:04.679 and community health. It's a different approach. It's one that 0:26:04.720 --> 0:26:07.280 we've been very transparent about it. It's one that's hardly unique 0:26:07.440 --> 0:26:10.879 because in every state they provide compensated care for on 0:26:11.040 --> 0:26:14.119 docks at the emergency room. Many states provide it for children, 0:26:14.200 --> 0:26:17.560 many for seniors. California provides it across the board. I mean. 0:26:17.760 --> 0:26:20.040 The biggest problem though, is, as somebody who left the state, 0:26:20.160 --> 0:26:22.000 is that the cost structure in the state has become 0:26:22.240 --> 0:26:24.600 so birds, not just because of illegal immigration but generally, 0:26:24.640 --> 0:26:27.960 and so the idea that policy has no impact as 0:26:28.000 --> 0:26:32.240 a magnet for particular human behavior or alienating people from 0:26:32.280 --> 0:26:35.000 a state, that's clearly untrue. And when you look at 0:26:35.000 --> 0:26:39.200 the homeless population, for example, friendlier policies toward providing services 0:26:39.240 --> 0:26:40.119 in Santa Monica. 0:26:40.359 --> 0:26:42.520 Point though, but now you're getting a homeless policy, non 0:26:42.560 --> 0:26:46.080 immigration policy. 0:26:44.560 --> 0:26:47.000 Of immigration policy. I want to make it easier for 0:26:47.080 --> 0:26:49.720 illegal immigrants. Let's stick with immigration to what ICE than 0:26:49.760 --> 0:26:50.480 presumably no. 0:26:50.680 --> 0:26:54.080 Look, I appreciate this, so we've established important I appreciate 0:26:54.119 --> 0:26:56.119 the question because I'm glad we've established that we do 0:26:56.200 --> 0:27:00.520 cooperate with ICE in California, in particular this governor, who, 0:27:00.760 --> 0:27:03.399 as I said, on multiple ocasions, vetoed efforts to stop 0:27:03.480 --> 0:27:06.320 me from that coordination for dangerous criminals. And we've done 0:27:06.359 --> 0:27:08.160 that over ten thousand folks. 0:27:07.960 --> 0:27:09.840 So it'd been wrong for us. So when AOC said 0:27:09.840 --> 0:27:12.480 this week that I should be abolished, you disagree, Oh. 0:27:12.800 --> 0:27:16.000 I disagree. When I think a candidate for president by 0:27:16.000 --> 0:27:18.159 the name Maharris said that in the last a cana 0:27:18.400 --> 0:27:20.240 I came out, it was I remember being on Chris 0:27:20.280 --> 0:27:22.919 Hayes hours later saying, I think that's a mistake. So 0:27:23.040 --> 0:27:25.920 absolutely Number two, as it relates to the issue of 0:27:25.960 --> 0:27:28.360 sanctuary policy, I think it's important to establish because it's 0:27:28.400 --> 0:27:33.639 not well established. Sanctuary jurisdictions have lower crime rates, lower 0:27:33.680 --> 0:27:37.239 crime rates than non sanctuary jurisdictions. So this notion that 0:27:37.480 --> 0:27:41.639 it somehow increases crime is also I think contradicted on 0:27:41.680 --> 0:27:44.639 the basis of the facts. So this notion that population 0:27:46.000 --> 0:27:50.560 it becomes an attractive nature for population increases. I think 0:27:50.680 --> 0:27:53.040 is contradicted by the facts as it relates to crime. 0:27:53.040 --> 0:27:56.000 It's contradicted by the facts. But there's unquestionably, and you're 0:27:56.080 --> 0:27:59.440 right about this as it relates to an expansion of services, 0:27:59.600 --> 0:28:05.280 but not just for sanctuary jurisdictions, for population diverse populations. Yes, 0:28:05.359 --> 0:28:08.800 there are states like California that have chosen a different approach. 0:28:09.119 --> 0:28:11.199 And that approach I mean means that when you came 0:28:11.240 --> 0:28:13.879 into office, for example, the budget was two hundred billion dollars, 0:28:13.880 --> 0:28:15.879 and your proposed budget last year or this year is 0:28:15.920 --> 0:28:17.280 three hundred and fifty billion dollars. 0:28:19.160 --> 0:28:21.119 The general funds two hundred and forty eight billion. We 0:28:21.160 --> 0:28:24.360 have forty two point three billion dollar additional revenue structure 0:28:24.359 --> 0:28:26.760 then we anticipated. By the way, another two point eight 0:28:26.800 --> 0:28:31.040 came in in December, and California is now replenishing its 0:28:31.040 --> 0:28:34.240 reserves twenty three billion dollars, paying down pension obligations eleven 0:28:34.240 --> 0:28:37.439 point eight billion dollars. There's no question there cost pressures, 0:28:37.440 --> 0:28:41.840 its rates to medicate are medical and medical in California, 0:28:41.920 --> 0:28:43.720 and those pressures are going to be made worse because 0:28:43.760 --> 0:28:44.680 of the big beautiful bill. 0:28:44.720 --> 0:28:46.760 Well, I mean I think that the main pressures in 0:28:46.800 --> 0:28:49.400 the state of California in terms of kind of future 0:28:49.400 --> 0:28:52.160 cost looks like some of the programs that you mentioned, 0:28:52.200 --> 0:28:55.200 mainly if we're going to look at it, CalPERS cost hours, 0:28:55.360 --> 0:28:58.280 the fact that you have perhaps five hundred billion dollars 0:28:58.280 --> 0:29:00.480 in unfunded liabilities going forward, well. 0:29:00.880 --> 0:29:03.960 In which we've substantially improved in the last seven years. 0:29:04.000 --> 0:29:06.320 I just mentioned the eleven point eight billion dollar commitment. 0:29:06.360 --> 0:29:08.280 We've highlighted that in the state of the state to 0:29:08.400 --> 0:29:12.640 pay down long term pension obligations stirs and purrs. Their 0:29:12.680 --> 0:29:15.840 funded liability has been improving over the last five or 0:29:15.880 --> 0:29:17.840 six years, can make up for the last thirty years. 0:29:18.120 --> 0:29:21.320 You may recall a decade plus ago we did reforms 0:29:21.360 --> 0:29:24.400 for new employees moving in. We dealt with spiking and 0:29:24.480 --> 0:29:27.920 other issues and abuses in that space. We're hardly unique 0:29:28.040 --> 0:29:30.600 in this country as it relates to unfunded liability. 0:29:31.240 --> 0:29:34.200 But there are fraud issues obviously, and fraud issues. 0:29:34.280 --> 0:29:36.440 Let's we can talk about fraud all day. I'd love 0:29:36.480 --> 0:29:37.960 to talk about that, and we could get back to 0:29:38.000 --> 0:29:40.880 that because I think it's incredibly important topic in California 0:29:40.920 --> 0:29:42.640 has been actually out front on a lot of these 0:29:42.680 --> 0:29:46.560 anti fraud efforts, and you know, I think there's a 0:29:46.560 --> 0:29:48.800 lot of you know, a lot of bs in this 0:29:48.880 --> 0:29:51.200 space as it relates to sort of targeted assaults and 0:29:51.280 --> 0:29:54.720 offense that obviously are big pentapolgects. But I want to 0:29:54.760 --> 0:29:56.680 go back because we're going to get all of this. 0:29:57.080 --> 0:29:58.840 I know everyone came here for all this stuff. 0:29:58.880 --> 0:30:00.960 Of course, before we do, they just want to ask. 0:30:01.280 --> 0:30:03.080 There's sort of a general take that I have, and 0:30:03.120 --> 0:30:05.560 that is I heard the podcast Theater with Esra Client. 0:30:05.600 --> 0:30:06.960 I think Ezra is wonderful. You know, he and I 0:30:07.000 --> 0:30:10.040 disagree about nearly everything. And I think as was really 0:30:10.120 --> 0:30:12.760 really a fascinating person with a lot of really interesting 0:30:12.920 --> 0:30:15.640 and heterodox ideas. And he talked with you a lot 0:30:15.680 --> 0:30:17.920 about sort of governance, and you talked with him a 0:30:17.960 --> 0:30:20.640 lot about how you were trying to remove regulatory barriers 0:30:20.640 --> 0:30:23.160 to for example, building units, right because when you came 0:30:23.160 --> 0:30:24.960 into office you wanted to build I believe it was 0:30:24.960 --> 0:30:27.760 three point five million units that was that was. 0:30:27.680 --> 0:30:29.080 The stated need. 0:30:29.360 --> 0:30:29.520 Right. 0:30:30.080 --> 0:30:32.080 Then we created a legal framework a two and a 0:30:32.200 --> 0:30:33.520 half million. 0:30:33.440 --> 0:30:35.479 And it will come as shorty to that, but it's 0:30:35.480 --> 0:30:37.320 like twenty thirty what is it about one hundred one 0:30:37.360 --> 0:30:38.920 hundred and fifty thousand units that are being. 0:30:38.960 --> 0:30:41.320 Little little less thane hundred and fifty thousand. You're right 0:30:41.360 --> 0:30:43.200 about one hundred and eleven hundred and eight thousand. 0:30:43.680 --> 0:30:44.920 And this isn't this isn't rip on you. 0:30:44.960 --> 0:30:46.920 I mean, because it's going to have major national issues, 0:30:47.000 --> 0:30:49.200 you know in the Mauth economics of this with interistrate 0:30:49.320 --> 0:30:52.840 environment sort of post COVID environment made this housing crisis across. 0:30:52.600 --> 0:30:54.840 Although to be fair that the housing crisis in California 0:30:54.880 --> 0:30:58.000 is particularly bad. I mean their places like Phoenix or Austin, 0:30:58.200 --> 0:30:59.240 or there's. 0:30:59.080 --> 0:31:01.880 The original said yesterday and last week in the state 0:31:01.960 --> 0:31:04.200 of State. It's the original sin our inability to get 0:31:04.200 --> 0:31:06.160 out of our own way and all the regulatory thinks right, 0:31:06.480 --> 0:31:09.440 and we blew through those in the last couple of years. 0:31:09.440 --> 0:31:12.760 Sixty one housing reform bills we just passed, and Ezra 0:31:12.960 --> 0:31:16.400 was highlighting that interesting in New York just moved in direction. 0:31:16.520 --> 0:31:20.520 I think finally we Democrats broadly are moving now finally 0:31:20.520 --> 0:31:24.920 in the right damage direction after decades and decades Democrats 0:31:24.960 --> 0:31:28.239 and Republicans in California neglect in this space, right. 0:31:28.520 --> 0:31:30.280 I think that one of the problems that that people 0:31:30.280 --> 0:31:32.240 see and you know, there's been a big question You've 0:31:32.240 --> 0:31:34.160 asked you. You've talked about it a lot, actually about 0:31:34.200 --> 0:31:37.840 the frustration that people have with politics and the disenchantment 0:31:37.880 --> 0:31:39.800 that people have, and the feeling that no matter what 0:31:39.800 --> 0:31:42.120 they do, they can't get ahead, and that's manifesting into 0:31:42.080 --> 0:31:44.719 a lot of political polarization. And this gets too, I think, 0:31:44.720 --> 0:31:46.280 a sort of broader issue. It's not just you, So 0:31:46.280 --> 0:31:47.880 I don't mean this to be a specific critique of you. 0:31:48.240 --> 0:31:50.000 I think it's a critique of a lot of politicians 0:31:50.000 --> 0:31:52.800 that I have left and right, and that is you 0:31:52.840 --> 0:31:54.959 look at the system. You realize as the governor, how 0:31:54.960 --> 0:31:56.960 complex the system is, how difficult it is to get 0:31:57.000 --> 0:31:59.680 things done, how much gridlocked there is in the system. 0:31:59.840 --> 0:32:02.800 But politicians, in order to get elected, have to make 0:32:02.840 --> 0:32:04.800 a lot of promises about how much things are going 0:32:04.800 --> 0:32:07.800 to change in the future, and they usually are talking 0:32:07.800 --> 0:32:10.360 about using the power of government in order to facilitate 0:32:10.400 --> 0:32:13.240 and make that change happen, particularly on the democratic side 0:32:13.320 --> 0:32:15.520 of the aisle. And it seems to me that that 0:32:15.680 --> 0:32:18.080 is a recipe for disaster for the American body politic, 0:32:18.200 --> 0:32:21.400 because if you make promises that cannot be fulfilled because 0:32:21.440 --> 0:32:23.640 the system does not allow for it to be fulfilled. 0:32:23.920 --> 0:32:26.880 People inherently end up frustrated. And you know, I have 0:32:26.960 --> 0:32:29.080 relatives who still live in the state of California. I 0:32:29.160 --> 0:32:31.760 visit it routinely, and they're making a very good living. 0:32:32.240 --> 0:32:33.640 I have a sister in law and brother in law 0:32:33.960 --> 0:32:36.480 live in LA. They make a combined excellent living, and 0:32:36.520 --> 0:32:40.120 they're barely making their mortgage. And the housing costs are 0:32:40.160 --> 0:32:43.120 too high. The cost of living is too high. I 0:32:43.160 --> 0:32:45.959 believe the poverty rates in California on a cost adjusted 0:32:46.000 --> 0:32:47.640 basis are some of the highest in the nation. 0:32:47.600 --> 0:32:50.880 Right there with Florida. When you look at the supplemental poverty. Next, 0:32:50.880 --> 0:32:53.160 when you look at poverty broadly, to find it's slightly 0:32:53.160 --> 0:32:55.920 above average supplemental Florida and California a right. 0:32:56.000 --> 0:32:58.360 If you're looking at real estate costs in particular, are 0:32:58.480 --> 0:33:01.040 extraordinary in the state of calif As you say, you know, 0:33:01.040 --> 0:33:04.040 you're trying to remove regulations. But the problem is that 0:33:04.280 --> 0:33:08.400 unless we are willing to recognize a fundamental reality, which 0:33:08.440 --> 0:33:10.800 is that the relationship of the American people with their 0:33:10.840 --> 0:33:14.920 government needs to change. And what that means is that 0:33:14.960 --> 0:33:19.120 we need to radically, radically remove the regulatory structures that 0:33:19.160 --> 0:33:23.440 allow for more building. That we need to radically stop 0:33:24.360 --> 0:33:29.120 perverting markets when it comes to how we make housing policy. 0:33:29.680 --> 0:33:33.160 That we need to stop wasting money in taxpayer funding 0:33:33.240 --> 0:33:36.640 on things like, for example, a gigantic once called the 0:33:36.640 --> 0:33:39.040 boon Zago high speed rail that is going to cost 0:33:39.080 --> 0:33:41.680 an access of one hundred billion dollars in this state, 0:33:42.000 --> 0:33:45.320 you know, the guarantee. And again I see it rising 0:33:45.320 --> 0:33:46.720 on the populist right too, which is sort of a 0:33:46.720 --> 0:33:48.720 big government right, which is something I object to on 0:33:49.040 --> 0:33:52.120 a sort of classically conservative level. The promises that are 0:33:52.120 --> 0:33:55.200 made that if you give government more power and more 0:33:55.200 --> 0:33:57.920 tax payer revenue, that suddenly these problems are going to 0:33:57.920 --> 0:34:01.240 be alleviated, and the actual result, which is less ability 0:34:01.240 --> 0:34:02.880 to move to do what my parents did, to move 0:34:02.920 --> 0:34:05.600 from a two bedroom small house in Burbank to a 0:34:05.640 --> 0:34:08.799 four bedroom, slightly larger house in North Hollywood, and then 0:34:08.920 --> 0:34:11.840 for me to go to a great state school like UCLA, 0:34:12.400 --> 0:34:14.160 and then for me to go to Harvard Law School, 0:34:14.200 --> 0:34:15.960 and now to have a really really nice house. You know, 0:34:16.120 --> 0:34:17.919 I did have a nice house in California before before 0:34:17.960 --> 0:34:22.480 we left. Obviously, you know, those obstacles need to be. 0:34:22.560 --> 0:34:24.319 Well, you sound like me. I couldn't agree the more 0:34:24.320 --> 0:34:27.160 I mean, we get high speed rail aside, you made 0:34:27.239 --> 0:34:29.080 my speech in my argument last three years in terms 0:34:29.080 --> 0:34:31.319 of the housing reforms we pursued, could not agree more. 0:34:32.040 --> 0:34:34.480 I highlighted the sixty one bills just last year. I 0:34:34.520 --> 0:34:36.840 didn't highlight the forty two secret reform bills. The origin 0:34:36.880 --> 0:34:40.120 you talk about process and regulatory thickets those environmental rules 0:34:40.120 --> 0:34:43.080 that were established, ironically by Ronald Reagan himself when he 0:34:43.120 --> 0:34:45.560 was governor of California. So we've been in the process 0:34:45.600 --> 0:34:47.920 of doing precisely what you're suggesting we need to do, 0:34:48.160 --> 0:34:50.160 and we've been doing it very meaningfully and been nation 0:34:50.320 --> 0:34:53.560 leading reforms in this space. Now, of course, the private 0:34:53.560 --> 0:34:55.880 sector needs to catch up in the context of interest 0:34:55.920 --> 0:35:00.360 rate environment becoming more favorable. But now we are cities 0:35:00.360 --> 0:35:02.960 and counties we put on notice. Maybe recall when I 0:35:03.000 --> 0:35:05.719 first became governor, I sued Huntington Beach, the first city, 0:35:05.760 --> 0:35:07.920 because they were out of compliance with their housing element. 0:35:08.120 --> 0:35:10.520 We established a legally legally binding goal of two and 0:35:10.520 --> 0:35:13.319 a half million units. We talked about the stretch goal, 0:35:14.160 --> 0:35:16.560 what needed to get some equilibrium in our prices, the 0:35:16.600 --> 0:35:19.080 supply demand imbalance, but we created a legally binding goal 0:35:19.120 --> 0:35:19.920 of two and a half million. 0:35:20.000 --> 0:35:21.759 So what we've done to make that happen in not 0:35:21.840 --> 0:35:24.520 Hunting Beach, but La San Francisco. 0:35:24.000 --> 0:35:26.359 Was Well, we've we created a housing of accountability unit. 0:35:26.400 --> 0:35:28.520 We pursued forty six actions we've unlocked. 0:35:28.560 --> 0:35:30.920 I guess the question is from like the common man perspective, 0:35:31.000 --> 0:35:33.760 right from my perspective where I left, I took my business. 0:35:33.920 --> 0:35:36.440 Right from that perspective, how do we get to the 0:35:36.480 --> 0:35:41.400 material change? And if we cannot, then perhaps that requires 0:35:41.600 --> 0:35:46.960 a complete rethink. Come over to my classical libertarian economics. 0:35:46.960 --> 0:35:48.920 Here the owner is I guess I'm what I'm saying, 0:35:49.160 --> 0:35:52.480 and maybe recognize that the amount of tax revenue that's 0:35:52.520 --> 0:35:56.239 taken in in the state perverts the market incentives. That 0:35:56.520 --> 0:35:59.959 what's been generated in the state is a middle class 0:36:00.080 --> 0:36:03.480 that is really struggling, vast social services for people who 0:36:03.520 --> 0:36:07.360 are at poverty line or below and slightly above. And 0:36:07.400 --> 0:36:09.319 then you know a group of people who are either 0:36:09.320 --> 0:36:11.120 so wealthy they don't care, or so wealthy now that 0:36:11.160 --> 0:36:13.160 now they're leaving right because of the perspective wealth tax, 0:36:13.160 --> 0:36:15.520 which I know you oppose, right, you understand markets. So 0:36:15.560 --> 0:36:18.759 that's why I'm always a little bit bewildered when their 0:36:19.280 --> 0:36:22.520 measures taken by the state legislature that end up perverting 0:36:22.600 --> 0:36:24.080 markets in fairly serious way. 0:36:24.160 --> 0:36:26.879 Well, we can get into the corony capitalism, state capitalism, 0:36:26.920 --> 0:36:32.680 and the tithings from Nvidia and AMD and what's going 0:36:32.680 --> 0:36:35.480 on with Intel and what's happening with the Trump administration 0:36:35.560 --> 0:36:37.239 in that respect. But I agree with you broadly in 0:36:37.280 --> 0:36:39.560 all this. I mean, the fact is we've been tackling 0:36:39.600 --> 0:36:41.360 all I can make up for fifty sixty years, and 0:36:41.360 --> 0:36:44.680 you're talking about literally a fifty year trend line as 0:36:44.680 --> 0:36:47.399 it relates to the issues of cost of housing and affordability. 0:36:47.520 --> 0:36:50.040 But I can talk in terms of the substance of 0:36:50.200 --> 0:36:53.760 actions we've taken, tripling their income tax credits for working families, 0:36:53.800 --> 0:36:56.919 creating a child tax credit, foster tax credit, doing more 0:36:56.960 --> 0:36:59.600 as it relates to predistribution opportunity. 0:36:59.160 --> 0:37:00.680 About radically lowering income tax. 0:37:00.600 --> 0:37:04.359 Rates in the California has a tax. I mean, there's 0:37:04.400 --> 0:37:06.879 sixteen states right now, let's talk about those sixteen states. 0:37:06.880 --> 0:37:07.920 Why don't we talk about California. 0:37:07.920 --> 0:37:10.080 That's why we're going to the tax. They're low wager 0:37:10.200 --> 0:37:13.120 earners more than California taxes. It's highwag earners. Let's talk 0:37:13.160 --> 0:37:16.000 about those lowering those tax rates in those sixteen states. 0:37:16.000 --> 0:37:18.319 How about the middle class. Forty percent of the middle 0:37:18.360 --> 0:37:21.400 class in Texas pay higher taxes than they do in California. 0:37:21.520 --> 0:37:24.840 The tax we have the highest tax rate for the 0:37:24.880 --> 0:37:28.319 one percent, but the overall tax burden, and there's been 0:37:28.400 --> 0:37:33.320 independent analysis after independent analysis, is marginally higher than the 0:37:33.400 --> 0:37:37.280 national average. Okay, so the tax rate for the one percent, 0:37:37.360 --> 0:37:40.200 you're in that bubble, but ninety nine percent empyeriodically. 0:37:40.360 --> 0:37:42.680 And a person who who grew up in Californians but 0:37:42.760 --> 0:37:44.719 my entire career in California, I paid every single tax 0:37:44.800 --> 0:37:47.080 rate in the same California I started off making when 0:37:47.120 --> 0:37:48.399 I when I first got out of school and i'd 0:37:48.440 --> 0:37:49.960 quit the law firm, I was making maybe sixty grand 0:37:49.960 --> 0:37:50.200 a year. 0:37:50.280 --> 0:37:52.160 So you started out paying less than you would in 0:37:52.320 --> 0:37:53.480 a dozen plus other. 0:37:53.360 --> 0:37:54.040 States, and I didn't. 0:37:54.320 --> 0:37:55.439 It's a progressive tax. 0:37:55.760 --> 0:37:57.840 I understand it's a progressive tax. Date the problem is 0:37:57.840 --> 0:38:00.160 that when I left, I also took eighty employees, and 0:38:00.320 --> 0:38:03.440 there's somebody who's got to pay the bills for those employees, 0:38:03.480 --> 0:38:05.400 and that's typically not the state. The person who is 0:38:05.400 --> 0:38:07.560 paying the bills for the employees and the person. 0:38:07.480 --> 0:38:10.239 That's the guy who, by the way, you're talking to 0:38:10.239 --> 0:38:12.080 a guy who started to right out of college pen 0:38:12.160 --> 0:38:16.240 to paper and started twenty three small businesses, literally twenty 0:38:16.239 --> 0:38:17.759 three created almost. 0:38:17.480 --> 0:38:19.680 As so you know, as a person who round small business, 0:38:19.719 --> 0:38:22.640 you wanted to pay salaries to your people, aren't well, right? 0:38:22.680 --> 0:38:24.480 I mean, it's not about the greed of the one 0:38:24.480 --> 0:38:25.399 of the person. 0:38:25.480 --> 0:38:27.440 I hated a lot of the regulations, and I've been 0:38:27.520 --> 0:38:28.600 fighting against a lot of. 0:38:28.520 --> 0:38:30.320 Them, and having to fire people because of that stuff 0:38:30.440 --> 0:38:33.279 is awful, I agree, And losing your profit margin, which 0:38:33.320 --> 0:38:35.719 allows you to hire more people is a bad thing 0:38:36.239 --> 0:38:38.000 when you were seeing I mean, I've talked to major 0:38:38.040 --> 0:38:40.640 tech founders who say today that they would not if 0:38:40.640 --> 0:38:42.000 they had to do it over again, they would not 0:38:42.040 --> 0:38:45.399 found in California specifically because of the regulatory and text rules. 0:38:45.400 --> 0:38:47.880 Well, let's talk about the largest startup in world history 0:38:47.960 --> 0:38:51.279 could have chosen any place to open its headquarters. Just 0:38:51.320 --> 0:38:54.399 recently Open AI and the folks there decided to open 0:38:54.400 --> 0:38:55.120 in San Francisco. 0:38:55.760 --> 0:38:58.200 Story of the talent is I mean, there's no question there. 0:38:58.000 --> 0:39:01.120 In lies the formula for success. Californ has more fortune 0:39:01.160 --> 0:39:05.520 five hundred companies than it's ever had in twenty plus years, to. 0:39:05.480 --> 0:39:06.920 Be forty million people who live. 0:39:07.000 --> 0:39:09.680 Oh, hold on. But four years ago that wasn't the case. 0:39:09.719 --> 0:39:11.920 Today it's the case. We have fifty eight fortune five 0:39:12.000 --> 0:39:14.160 hundred companies. When I started was forty nine. We're the 0:39:14.200 --> 0:39:17.200 sixth largest economy. Now we're the fourth largest economy. You 0:39:17.239 --> 0:39:18.880 look at the three point one million jobs that are 0:39:18.920 --> 0:39:21.040 being created since I've been governed. You can look across 0:39:21.160 --> 0:39:24.480 the spectrum. I'm not denying its challenges, but those persistent 0:39:24.560 --> 0:39:26.640 exist in every other state. You moved to a state 0:39:26.840 --> 0:39:29.400 that has higher insurance rate, higher car insurance not just 0:39:29.400 --> 0:39:32.200 home insurance, has higher property taxes. Many of these red 0:39:32.239 --> 0:39:35.560 states they've hired a murder rates, lower wages, lower productivity, 0:39:35.840 --> 0:39:39.920 less innovation and entrepreneurialism. They're less contributory to the GDP. 0:39:39.719 --> 0:39:41.680 Of this country. So I mean not not to defend 0:39:41.719 --> 0:39:44.040 my current state Florida. I mean obviously headed debate with 0:39:44.040 --> 0:39:46.920 Governor DeSantis where you guys had had this discussion, but 0:39:47.320 --> 0:39:50.080 will I will say that some of the statistics that 0:39:50.320 --> 0:39:53.520 you use with regard to California are aggregate statistics, not 0:39:53.560 --> 0:39:55.759 on a per capita basis. So I've heard you say, 0:39:55.760 --> 0:40:00.520 for example, that California is the top innovation state because 0:40:00.520 --> 0:40:02.360 it has the highest number of new businesses founded on 0:40:02.400 --> 0:40:03.799 a per capita basis, that isn't true. 0:40:03.800 --> 0:40:06.319 You talk about on a per capita basis, more Floridians 0:40:06.360 --> 0:40:08.600 moving to California than Californians to Florida. 0:40:08.760 --> 0:40:12.320 I mean that's per capita base. That's fine and on appy. 0:40:12.400 --> 0:40:14.200 I just want to know it's established a per capit 0:40:15.000 --> 0:40:17.160 per cap at a murder rate. Let's look at infant 0:40:17.160 --> 0:40:18.240 mortality per capital. 0:40:18.280 --> 0:40:20.640 You can look at look at violent assault rates. We 0:40:20.640 --> 0:40:21.640 can look at property crime rate. 0:40:21.680 --> 0:40:24.839 I don't know, that's not I mean, I mean Jacksonville 0:40:24.920 --> 0:40:25.840 versus San Francisco. 0:40:26.000 --> 0:40:29.040 California, outside of immigration has had a loss of population 0:40:29.480 --> 0:40:31.080 for the past several years. Immigration. 0:40:31.160 --> 0:40:33.480 It's part of the secret sauce of California, going back 0:40:33.520 --> 0:40:34.520 to its its origin. 0:40:34.520 --> 0:40:36.239 I understand. But if you lose people like me and 0:40:36.239 --> 0:40:38.440 the EDI employees I took with me, I'm. 0:40:38.320 --> 0:40:40.680 Not happy about anyone leaving the state. But population has 0:40:40.680 --> 0:40:42.840 grown three years in a row. Last time it declined, 0:40:42.840 --> 0:40:44.920 it went down with eleven other states, and we lost 0:40:44.960 --> 0:40:46.080 one hundred and fifty one people. 0:40:46.160 --> 0:40:48.000 If you're talking not about immigration. If you're just talking 0:40:48.040 --> 0:40:50.279 about people who lived in California horle leaving, that number 0:40:50.360 --> 0:40:52.440 is high. And again I'm not blaming that on you. 0:40:52.280 --> 0:40:54.960 You give be the case in many many states, as 0:40:55.000 --> 0:40:56.839 you know, across this country, by the way, a lot 0:40:56.840 --> 0:40:59.080 of red states, which I'm surprised you guys don't talk 0:40:59.120 --> 0:41:01.480 more about. What about the last few years all these 0:41:01.480 --> 0:41:04.520 red states losing folks. California hasn't been the last few years. 0:41:04.560 --> 0:41:07.880 These red states are Louisiana, Mississippi. Let's talk about those states. 0:41:07.880 --> 0:41:09.879 But let's talk about the murder rate. Adding a top 0:41:09.920 --> 0:41:12.640 ten murder rates in America are in red states. I 0:41:12.640 --> 0:41:15.640 think there's some real probably the most regressive taxes in 0:41:15.680 --> 0:41:17.840 the country are in these red states. Who are you for? 0:41:18.320 --> 0:41:21.160 I mean the question really again, you're the governor of 0:41:21.160 --> 0:41:23.320 California and not the governor of Louisiana. If I'm speaking 0:41:23.320 --> 0:41:25.000 with the governor of Louisiana, I'd be very happy to 0:41:25.040 --> 0:41:26.200 talk about just never hear. 0:41:26.120 --> 0:41:29.440 Anyone and talk about the governor Louisiana in the population day. 0:41:29.560 --> 0:41:32.560 Yeah, because the last I'm aware of the governor of Louisiana, 0:41:32.719 --> 0:41:37.400 you know, probably wasn't running for president. And also everyone 0:41:37.440 --> 0:41:38.920 else to be running for president. 0:41:39.440 --> 0:41:41.359 Were running for president. By the way, let's get back 0:41:41.400 --> 0:41:43.880 to that Bannon is running for president. He said, Oh. 0:41:43.760 --> 0:41:46.480 Goodness, you don't buy that. No, I bet that Steve 0:41:46.480 --> 0:41:48.680 would run a vanity campaign in order to garner a 0:41:48.680 --> 0:41:50.480 few dollars and some more attention from self. Sure, why not. 0:41:50.680 --> 0:41:52.800 I'm going to get back to all the California bashing 0:41:52.840 --> 0:41:54.520 here in a second, because I know everyone wants to 0:41:54.520 --> 0:41:55.719 tune in on that, but I want to talk. I 0:41:55.800 --> 0:41:57.400 want to keep going a little bit, and just in 0:41:57.440 --> 0:41:59.160 the interest of you coming all the way off from 0:41:59.160 --> 0:42:03.840 that red short floor, because it is interesting just in 0:42:03.920 --> 0:42:06.239 terms of just as you laid out the framework of 0:42:06.239 --> 0:42:10.520 the media environment in this country, and how fragment it's become, etcetera, 0:42:10.600 --> 0:42:13.480 this notion of trust and truth, and how things are weaponized, 0:42:13.520 --> 0:42:16.560 and how everybody, you know, society becomes, how we behave 0:42:16.640 --> 0:42:19.240 and how you and diet a little bit my press office, 0:42:19.280 --> 0:42:24.000 which I appreciated the direct point you made on that, 0:42:24.640 --> 0:42:26.360 and I'm not naive about that. I think about that 0:42:26.400 --> 0:42:27.960 all the time. When we put up a mirror to Trump, 0:42:28.080 --> 0:42:30.719 we've become more like him. And I'm complicit in that, 0:42:30.760 --> 0:42:31.160 not unique. 0:42:31.239 --> 0:42:32.799 You obviously we've had things in our company that have 0:42:32.840 --> 0:42:35.040 been said. That's not unique. I will say that I 0:42:35.040 --> 0:42:37.400 think that for elected politicians who are hoping for a 0:42:37.440 --> 0:42:40.440 better future or we all come together, it is a problem. 0:42:40.600 --> 0:42:44.120 And you know, I don't like to catastrophism. I've criticized 0:42:44.120 --> 0:42:46.319 it on the right too, the sort of catastrophism that 0:42:46.360 --> 0:42:48.239 you see in a functioning democracy, which is what the 0:42:48.320 --> 0:42:50.960 United States is. It is a functioning republic. You know, when, 0:42:51.640 --> 0:42:54.719 for example, when the president decided to push for redistricting 0:42:54.760 --> 0:42:57.400 and then you push back with your proposition. I actually 0:42:57.400 --> 0:42:58.960 didn't have a problem with that. I thought, you know, 0:42:59.000 --> 0:43:00.560 that is a that is a normal use of the 0:43:00.560 --> 0:43:03.319 political mechanisms in order to fight back by one side 0:43:03.360 --> 0:43:05.719 against another. What I do have a problem with is 0:43:06.320 --> 0:43:07.960 if you go on Stephen Colbert and say you're word 0:43:08.000 --> 0:43:10.120 there won't be a legit election in twenty twenty eight. 0:43:10.239 --> 0:43:11.960 I die. But I feel that. I mean, if I 0:43:11.960 --> 0:43:13.040 believe it, do you really believe that? 0:43:13.080 --> 0:43:15.840 I really believe that, But then why are you running 0:43:16.120 --> 0:43:17.040 or why would you consider it? 0:43:17.120 --> 0:43:19.520 I want to make sure those because we have agency, 0:43:19.560 --> 0:43:22.120 we can shape the future. It's not something to experience. 0:43:21.760 --> 0:43:23.360 But I didn't believe when President Trump said it's a 0:43:23.360 --> 0:43:24.120 President Trump said in. 0:43:24.080 --> 0:43:26.400 Twenty twenty, he wants I believe in it. 0:43:26.880 --> 0:43:28.520 He tried to truly believe the preident Trump is going 0:43:28.600 --> 0:43:29.680 to try to run in twenty twenty eight. 0:43:29.800 --> 0:43:31.720 No, I believe that I'll try to wire the outcome 0:43:31.719 --> 0:43:32.440 in twenty twenty eight. 0:43:32.440 --> 0:43:34.320 I really see. This sort of stuff is very dangerous 0:43:34.320 --> 0:43:36.759 to me. It really because I heard it from the 0:43:36.840 --> 0:43:38.879 right in the aftermath of twenty twenty, and you'll recall 0:43:38.960 --> 0:43:40.680 I was one of the few on the right who 0:43:40.680 --> 0:43:43.680 said this is not true, right, that Joe Biden was legitimately, 0:43:43.760 --> 0:43:46.200 legitimately elected in twenty twenty, and that if someone could 0:43:46.200 --> 0:43:48.520 provide me evidence that he was not, that was sufficient 0:43:48.560 --> 0:43:51.680 to overcome the Burgin. What Trump tried to do well, 0:43:51.680 --> 0:43:53.319 I mean, what is the thing that you think many 0:43:53.400 --> 0:43:54.040 dialing up. 0:43:53.920 --> 0:43:57.000 For twelve thousand votes in Georgia you end up partying. 0:43:57.080 --> 0:43:59.160 I mean, where you signed, I'm not justifying, I'm not 0:43:59.200 --> 0:44:01.960 justifying and trying to democracy, not justifying what he said 0:44:01.960 --> 0:44:04.840 to Brad Raffinsburg or over over in Georgia, Brad. 0:44:04.760 --> 0:44:07.279 Raffis wat Mike Pens did the right thing. By the way, 0:44:07.280 --> 0:44:09.560 and sortifying the election. But my point is that when 0:44:09.800 --> 0:44:13.120 it comes to if you want the country to continue 0:44:13.200 --> 0:44:16.520 to work together, then if you set the predicate if 0:44:16.520 --> 0:44:19.360 I lose, it was rigged and I can't stand that, 0:44:19.600 --> 0:44:21.799 and then then we need some objective metric on that. 0:44:21.800 --> 0:44:23.359 Then then if you're going to say that we need 0:44:23.360 --> 0:44:26.759 some objective metrics by which we can adjudicate whether or 0:44:26.880 --> 0:44:30.880 not the election will be fairly decided. And it seems 0:44:30.880 --> 0:44:33.239 to me that just in terms of how elections are 0:44:33.239 --> 0:44:35.680 conducted globally, and again I'm in favor of many of 0:44:35.760 --> 0:44:38.280 these sort of election reforms that have been proposed. For example, 0:44:38.320 --> 0:44:40.360 voter I d I think it's kind of silly to 0:44:40.680 --> 0:44:42.439 argue that you shouldn't have to show idea when you vote. 0:44:42.560 --> 0:44:45.040 But do I think that we are at high risk 0:44:45.080 --> 0:44:47.640 in the United States a full scale national elections with 0:44:47.719 --> 0:44:51.160 one hundred and fifty million voters being stolen, and then 0:44:51.160 --> 0:44:55.120 that the the elective leadership is then fundamentally illegitimate, which 0:44:55.200 --> 0:44:57.279 leaves you with no choice, presumably but to go to 0:44:57.280 --> 0:44:59.839 the mattresses, which is what you don't want. That sort 0:44:59.840 --> 0:45:01.960 of language I think is really ray and I. 0:45:01.960 --> 0:45:04.279 Don't see it. But back to the point you were 0:45:04.320 --> 0:45:07.319 making earlier about the aggregate. We're talking about a few 0:45:07.400 --> 0:45:10.640 thousand votes here and there that ultimately determine that election 0:45:10.840 --> 0:45:12.839 for the nation on the basis of the electoral map. 0:45:13.280 --> 0:45:17.040 So I think it's more prone to concern than you may. 0:45:16.920 --> 0:45:20.640 Suggest specific problems that we can actually agree on the 0:45:20.640 --> 0:45:21.600 specifical I'm. 0:45:21.480 --> 0:45:23.400 With you, and that's why I'm calling it out now 0:45:23.440 --> 0:45:26.120 and I've been I try to provide evidence to back 0:45:26.160 --> 0:45:27.840 up my point as it relates to the Department of 0:45:27.960 --> 0:45:29.880 Justice and how it gets weaponized. And I've seen it 0:45:30.280 --> 0:45:32.239 from my party as well, sure as hell's seen it 0:45:32.239 --> 0:45:34.640 from Trump's part. Some perspective what they try to do 0:45:34.680 --> 0:45:36.840 with the bord tag teams the day of the election 0:45:36.960 --> 0:45:39.600 here under Prop fifty, where they send folks out and 0:45:39.640 --> 0:45:42.080 these guys are all dressed up to try to chill 0:45:42.120 --> 0:45:44.719 free expression and free speech on election day, where Trump 0:45:44.800 --> 0:45:47.000 tweets out that morning saying this is a rigged election. 0:45:47.719 --> 0:45:50.440 The fact that he's out there suggesting that all the 0:45:50.480 --> 0:45:53.080 vote by mail is illegal, and a bunch of immigrants, 0:45:53.320 --> 0:45:56.000 illegal immigrants are out there doing all of these things. 0:45:56.000 --> 0:45:59.000 You start stacking them, including trying to MiG term elections 0:45:59.040 --> 0:46:01.560 as it relates to changing maps and what he tried 0:46:01.600 --> 0:46:04.320 to do on January sixth, Yeah, I start getting a 0:46:04.320 --> 0:46:04.799 little big one. 0:46:05.040 --> 0:46:06.520 I don't want to look about those things in together 0:46:06.520 --> 0:46:07.840 because I don't. But I think they're saying. 0:46:08.040 --> 0:46:10.000 They're not all the same, but they stacked together from 0:46:10.040 --> 0:46:12.600 my perspective, not one action to some total of all 0:46:12.640 --> 0:46:14.759 of those things, including sending out ice. 0:46:14.840 --> 0:46:18.120 But it is very target targets. Here's the thing, it's 0:46:18.160 --> 0:46:20.320 very difficult to argue over intentions because now I'm in 0:46:20.320 --> 0:46:22.200 the business of mind reading, which I can't do. I 0:46:22.200 --> 0:46:24.200 can well, Joump's not. 0:46:24.360 --> 0:46:25.800 He's telling you what he thinks. 0:46:26.000 --> 0:46:29.560 I know, and but he when he says what he thinks, 0:46:29.600 --> 0:46:31.799 all criticize. So for example, when he said twenty twenty 0:46:31.840 --> 0:46:34.480 was a rigged election, he said, you'll recall in twenty twenty. 0:46:34.760 --> 0:46:36.120 On the night of the election, he said I won 0:46:36.200 --> 0:46:39.600 before all the results were in. I came out before anybody. 0:46:39.719 --> 0:46:42.040 And I said, that's wrong. The election is not over yet, 0:46:42.040 --> 0:46:44.279 all the votes have not been counted, so so that 0:46:44.760 --> 0:46:47.080 so I tried to I try, and I think the 0:46:47.120 --> 0:46:49.640 responsible thing to do is and I don't always do this, 0:46:49.719 --> 0:46:52.200 but I think that the responsible thing to do is 0:46:52.280 --> 0:46:55.160 to try and hone in on the specific behavior. So 0:46:55.360 --> 0:46:57.360 you know, you mentioned that it would be election rigging. 0:46:57.520 --> 0:46:59.920 You know, if President Trump is pushing for jerrymandering and 0:47:00.080 --> 0:47:02.000 in Indiana, I don't think that's election rigging. I don't 0:47:02.000 --> 0:47:04.040 think it's election rigging when you jerrymander in California. I 0:47:04.080 --> 0:47:06.560 think that is a long practice part of American politics. 0:47:06.760 --> 0:47:08.840 And I don't think that you did anything wrong actually 0:47:09.040 --> 0:47:11.080 in pushing fort in California, as much as it does 0:47:11.120 --> 0:47:13.359 not benefit the party that I tend to vote for 0:47:13.600 --> 0:47:15.600 and of whom i'm a member of which i'm a member. 0:47:15.800 --> 0:47:18.719 So you know, when the general tenor and this is 0:47:18.719 --> 0:47:22.759 what I see in democraphic, in democratic crises that you 0:47:22.800 --> 0:47:24.560 see around the world, one of the things that I 0:47:24.600 --> 0:47:27.560 see is both sides saying if the other side wins, 0:47:27.880 --> 0:47:28.520 it was Ray. 0:47:28.440 --> 0:47:29.960 Yeah, I'm with you on that, though I want to 0:47:29.960 --> 0:47:32.239 make a double down on being crystal clear. I can't 0:47:32.280 --> 0:47:34.040 stand that anymore than you can stand that. I couldn't 0:47:34.040 --> 0:47:37.280 agree with you more. I'm concerned about the inputs between 0:47:37.320 --> 0:47:41.759 now in twenty twenty eight, including concerned about folks that 0:47:41.840 --> 0:47:44.640 you know well, Steve Bannon and others saying there'll be 0:47:44.680 --> 0:47:46.839 a third Trump term. The fact that I was in. 0:47:46.760 --> 0:47:48.440 The he's totally full of shit. And by the way, 0:47:48.440 --> 0:47:50.400 I think that people should stop giving Steve attention for 0:47:50.440 --> 0:47:52.080 saying things that are complete horseship, and. 0:47:52.200 --> 0:47:55.959 I appreciate that. But should I give attention to Donald Trump? 0:47:56.000 --> 0:47:57.880 When I sat there in the Oval office for ninety 0:47:57.880 --> 0:48:00.919 minutes and he tells me to turn around and there's 0:48:00.960 --> 0:48:03.080 a picture on the wall or painting on the wall 0:48:03.120 --> 0:48:04.840 of FDR and I look at him and I smiled, 0:48:04.840 --> 0:48:06.759 and he goes, I said, oh, here's the third term. 0:48:06.760 --> 0:48:09.160 He goes, what about four terms? Should I take him seriously? 0:48:09.200 --> 0:48:09.680 Okay? Soorry? 0:48:09.760 --> 0:48:11.600 I take him literally? Will I? Will? I don't know. 0:48:11.600 --> 0:48:13.440 I'm just a question, you know, and my my general 0:48:13.760 --> 0:48:15.719 the president and my general answer to this is if 0:48:15.719 --> 0:48:18.520 we've watched Donald Trump for ten years, ten years and 0:48:18.520 --> 0:48:20.319 we're still doing the thing where we all take him 0:48:20.560 --> 0:48:26.080 explicitly literally, I think that did so people has Okay, 0:48:26.480 --> 0:48:29.360 it turns out should But you know, one of the 0:48:29.400 --> 0:48:31.680 things that I remember I would get this critique about 0:48:31.680 --> 0:48:33.920 President Trump a lot, is President Trump, who, as I've 0:48:33.960 --> 0:48:37.600 said multiple times on his on his epitaph, it will 0:48:37.760 --> 0:48:40.000 it will read forty fifth and forty seven presidents of 0:48:40.040 --> 0:48:42.799 the United States. He said, a lot of shit, you know, 0:48:42.920 --> 0:48:44.279 like the the thing that I. 0:48:45.600 --> 0:48:47.360 I take my presidents a little more seriously. 0:48:47.680 --> 0:48:49.239 I don't see I don't think you do. And this 0:48:49.320 --> 0:48:50.839 is this is the thing where I really, I really 0:48:50.880 --> 0:48:52.480 doubt it. I see a lot of people who will 0:48:52.520 --> 0:48:56.200 Trump will will fire off a random tweet and everybody 0:48:56.680 --> 0:49:00.279 kind of laughs because it's President Trump. If I'm to 0:49:00.280 --> 0:49:02.480 pretend that that is coming from the same thought process 0:49:02.840 --> 0:49:05.759 as whatever comes from Joe Biden's press office, which went 0:49:05.800 --> 0:49:08.160 through seven layers and maybe not the president very different, 0:49:08.200 --> 0:49:10.120 then I'm not gonna I'm not gonna pretend that's the 0:49:10.160 --> 0:49:11.480 same thing, because I'm not an idiot, you know. 0:49:12.120 --> 0:49:13.920 Side look, and by the way, I could not agree 0:49:13.960 --> 0:49:16.120 the more. And that's I think reflected in the humor 0:49:16.160 --> 0:49:18.640 I'm trying to put back in on my social idiot. 0:49:18.680 --> 0:49:20.319 And actually, I think it's a problem for you because 0:49:20.320 --> 0:49:22.600 I think that, frankly, the stuff that you're doing is 0:49:22.600 --> 0:49:24.520 more thought out than the stuff that President Trump does. 0:49:24.680 --> 0:49:26.359 Meaning I think the President Trump is waking up at 0:49:26.360 --> 0:49:27.920 three in the morning if you want to sleep at all, 0:49:28.120 --> 0:49:30.360 and he's firing off stuff on truth social right, and 0:49:30.360 --> 0:49:32.200 so am I supposed to take that as seriously as 0:49:32.239 --> 0:49:34.400 you in a methodical fashion and saying, you know what, 0:49:34.400 --> 0:49:36.279 I'm going to prank him back. And I think that 0:49:36.320 --> 0:49:39.319 people on you know, people who are your supporters, do 0:49:39.440 --> 0:49:43.319 take you in that way more literally then they would 0:49:43.360 --> 0:49:44.680 be apt to take president. 0:49:44.920 --> 0:49:46.440 I think, I mean, a lot of my support has 0:49:46.440 --> 0:49:49.960 been offended by by what we're trying to do. But 0:49:49.960 --> 0:49:52.320 but no, look and and a lot I think appreciate 0:49:52.360 --> 0:49:54.680 the humor that we bring to it, and I do 0:49:54.719 --> 0:49:57.640 think it. I think it's reflected, and I think a 0:49:57.680 --> 0:49:59.640 sense of agreement that we have in that respect a 0:49:59.840 --> 0:50:01.239 really so what Trump puts out all the time. 0:50:01.239 --> 0:50:02.800 But like, if you win the twenty twenty eight election, 0:50:03.040 --> 0:50:04.880 I will call you presidents of the United States, right 0:50:04.880 --> 0:50:07.200 because that election will be legitimate. 0:50:07.280 --> 0:50:12.560 And if it's I was, you know, as an American 0:50:13.120 --> 0:50:16.200 called Donald Trump president ed States, mister president, I mean, 0:50:16.440 --> 0:50:19.400 of course, And so I'm with you on that, But 0:50:19.719 --> 0:50:23.200 that doesn't suggest that I believe for a second, and 0:50:23.239 --> 0:50:26.840 you haven't respectfully convinced me that I'm wrong or errant 0:50:27.120 --> 0:50:30.040 that he won't do everything in his power to manipulate 0:50:30.080 --> 0:50:33.160 the outcome. Do I expect. I think it's time of life. 0:50:33.160 --> 0:50:36.359 If he was twenty years younger, I absolutely believe he'd 0:50:36.440 --> 0:50:38.640 run for a third term. But at time of life 0:50:38.920 --> 0:50:41.239 suggests that that's not going to be the case. But 0:50:41.280 --> 0:50:42.480 I do think he's going to try hard. 0:50:42.560 --> 0:50:44.840 This also implicated that you see the reason I'm concerned 0:50:44.880 --> 0:50:49.120 about this because it also implicates the guardrails. So, as 0:50:49.160 --> 0:50:51.560 you've talked about in your state, there's a lot of gridlock, 0:50:51.640 --> 0:50:53.440 right There are a lot of various moving parts when 0:50:53.440 --> 0:50:55.000 you're trying to get something done at the state level. 0:50:55.000 --> 0:50:56.880 You've got local governments that can impede you. You've got 0:50:56.880 --> 0:50:59.279 a legislature that can say no to you. You've got 0:50:59.280 --> 0:51:01.520 a bunch of be judiciary that will that will tell 0:51:01.560 --> 0:51:04.759 you no in in certain areas. You know, there's there's 0:51:04.760 --> 0:51:06.040 a ruling a couple of weeks ago that I that 0:51:06.040 --> 0:51:08.279 I strongly agree with from the judiciary with regard to, 0:51:08.360 --> 0:51:11.400 for example, school districts and what they can and should 0:51:11.400 --> 0:51:13.439 tell parents about about their kids. 0:51:13.560 --> 0:51:18.080 That'll get but but you know what decision, Yeah, but 0:51:18.120 --> 0:51:20.239 when when it when it comes to you know what 0:51:20.280 --> 0:51:21.880 President Trump is or is not trying to do. 0:51:22.000 --> 0:51:24.160 The problem is when we say that he will try 0:51:24.200 --> 0:51:26.240 to he will try to steal iss will the election 0:51:26.440 --> 0:51:29.359 be stolen? That relies now on a an opinion about, 0:51:29.400 --> 0:51:31.719 for example, the Supreme Court of the United States, or 0:51:31.719 --> 0:51:35.319 an opinion about the various state legislatures and courts, and 0:51:35.320 --> 0:51:37.640 and so now you're not just implicating what President Trump 0:51:37.680 --> 0:51:40.719 might try to do, You're now implicating pretty much every 0:51:40.719 --> 0:51:42.640 major institution that is electoral in nature. 0:51:42.760 --> 0:51:45.799 Well, there's a lot of evidence, and I know both 0:51:45.840 --> 0:51:48.960 sides have argued a lot of evidence as relates the 0:51:49.000 --> 0:51:51.960 weaponization justice and the bias that's expressed in a lot 0:51:52.000 --> 0:51:56.319 of these federal judicial opinions. And and it's, uh, yeah, 0:51:56.360 --> 0:51:58.040 it's a little arming. I mean, as a father of 0:51:58.080 --> 0:52:02.480 a judge who revers thes and you know, as someone 0:52:02.520 --> 0:52:04.520 that I was very proud my father may have been 0:52:04.520 --> 0:52:07.960 accused of being an activist judge, but many occasions call 0:52:08.000 --> 0:52:10.239 in balls and strikes, and you know, I revere that 0:52:10.280 --> 0:52:12.960 sense of justice. That's that's where justice is found with 0:52:13.040 --> 0:52:15.759 an objective analysis. But no, I do worry about the 0:52:15.760 --> 0:52:18.320 Supreme Court. You may not. I'm concerned about the Supreme 0:52:18.320 --> 0:52:20.880 Court of the United States. I'm concerned about what Donald 0:52:20.920 --> 0:52:24.200 Trump did after January sixth, the degree that he went 0:52:25.120 --> 0:52:28.400 to ultimately try to stay in office. Yes, I'm concerned 0:52:28.440 --> 0:52:30.919 about the actions he's taken, not any one of them 0:52:31.360 --> 0:52:35.240 from the midterm redistricting, but the sum total of many 0:52:35.320 --> 0:52:37.560 of them. And yes, I'm concerned. If we don't take 0:52:37.600 --> 0:52:39.920 back the House of Representatives and we have no oversight 0:52:40.080 --> 0:52:42.759 and we continue to have the Supine Congress, we may 0:52:42.800 --> 0:52:44.920 not have a country that we recognize. I really believe 0:52:44.920 --> 0:52:45.799 that I do. 0:52:46.239 --> 0:52:48.719 And it's fine to believe all of those things. I 0:52:48.760 --> 0:52:50.600 will say that to articulate them as though they are 0:52:50.640 --> 0:52:53.040 all of equal levels of alarm, or that the sum 0:52:53.120 --> 0:52:55.560 total of them is that if we don't win the 0:52:55.560 --> 0:52:57.640 next election, the country's over, which again is something that 0:52:57.880 --> 0:53:00.600 you hear very often from the right too. Yeah. I 0:53:00.600 --> 0:53:02.480 think that that sort of alarmism is quite bad for 0:53:02.480 --> 0:53:04.960 American politics. And I don't think that anyone who's in 0:53:05.000 --> 0:53:07.480 electoral politics actually believes that, because I promise you that 0:53:07.520 --> 0:53:10.440 if a Republican wins in twenty twenty eight, a Democrat 0:53:10.480 --> 0:53:12.640 will then run in twenty thirty two, and if the 0:53:12.680 --> 0:53:14.560 reverse is true, the same thing will happen. 0:53:14.600 --> 0:53:16.400 Yeah, I agree with that. Look, I do. I just 0:53:16.880 --> 0:53:17.799 the level, and I. 0:53:17.800 --> 0:53:19.479 Think the American people should know that because it gives 0:53:19.480 --> 0:53:21.600 them a sense Okay, I didn't win this time, but 0:53:21.600 --> 0:53:23.680 I might win next time. And once American people start 0:53:23.680 --> 0:53:25.799 to believe they can never win or their side is 0:53:25.840 --> 0:53:26.720 always cut out. 0:53:26.680 --> 0:53:29.319 Then that's what you're starting to get. I despaired of 0:53:29.320 --> 0:53:31.520 what you're saying. What you're saying, I completely concur with. 0:53:31.600 --> 0:53:35.840 I just I have a different level of anxiety based 0:53:35.920 --> 0:53:39.600 upon my own direct experience, not just indirect, direct experience 0:53:39.640 --> 0:53:42.680 with Donald Trump, my concern about the rule of law, 0:53:43.080 --> 0:53:45.120 this notion of co equal branch government. In your book, 0:53:45.160 --> 0:53:48.320 you talk about sort of the fundamental Judeo Christian values 0:53:48.320 --> 0:53:50.880 in this country with the best the Greek democracy. I 0:53:51.000 --> 0:53:51.799 worry about. 0:53:51.520 --> 0:53:54.279 Those classes are fab checks and balances too. Yeah, and 0:53:54.320 --> 0:53:55.480 by the way, I think that the best way to 0:53:55.520 --> 0:53:57.400 do that actually, and this benefit is governor of the 0:53:57.400 --> 0:54:00.400 state is devolution of more authority back down to the 0:54:00.400 --> 0:54:03.240 state's evolution, more governmental authority back down to the local levels, 0:54:03.360 --> 0:54:04.520 and more robust checks and balances. 0:54:04.800 --> 0:54:08.000 Your lips to God in the White House's ears. Yeah, 0:54:08.239 --> 0:54:10.680 I'm a little and I hope you remember that this 0:54:10.800 --> 0:54:13.600 notion of federalism and Tenth Amendment. Yeah, I remember, I remember, 0:54:13.920 --> 0:54:16.960 you know, the Red States. We're arguing for that during 0:54:17.000 --> 0:54:19.640 those obomba years. God bless you. No back to your 0:54:19.719 --> 0:54:21.799 being more consistent, and I respect that, and that's why 0:54:21.800 --> 0:54:24.480 we're here, and I respect you, and I appreciate this 0:54:24.560 --> 0:54:27.800 opportunity to engage even though obviously we have fundamental disagreements 0:54:27.840 --> 0:54:29.719 on a lot of these issues. Maybe not fundamental, just 0:54:29.760 --> 0:54:32.520 disagreements on a lot of these issues. Let me go 0:54:32.640 --> 0:54:34.480 back to some of the disagreements. And I don't want 0:54:34.520 --> 0:54:37.440 to paint too much and color this in because as 0:54:37.480 --> 0:54:40.719 a Democrat it's in my interest to do so. But 0:54:40.840 --> 0:54:44.319 you got a lot of attention for going recently to 0:54:44.480 --> 0:54:49.640 America Fest turning Point USA. You made a terrible decision 0:54:49.640 --> 0:54:52.640 of being the first speaker. That's just me saying editorially, what. 0:54:52.520 --> 0:54:55.759 The he that is not? That is not my decision. Right. 0:54:55.880 --> 0:54:58.360 They invited me, they gave me a lot. That's just 0:54:58.400 --> 0:55:00.600 your luck because then every speaker can come on and 0:55:00.640 --> 0:55:02.439 that's you know, I got to say what I wanted 0:55:02.480 --> 0:55:04.919 to say, and the picture what did you say? 0:55:04.960 --> 0:55:07.000 So people tuning in don't know what the hell we're 0:55:07.000 --> 0:55:10.640 talking about you went in and a pretty somber time. 0:55:11.320 --> 0:55:14.560 You know, Charlie's widow was there. He had a lot 0:55:14.560 --> 0:55:17.640 of you know, the sort of branded celebrities in the right, 0:55:17.719 --> 0:55:22.360 and Candace Owens was there and not there but became 0:55:22.400 --> 0:55:25.360 part of the conversation, part of the conversation, and Bannon 0:55:25.560 --> 0:55:28.440 and Megan Kelly, O, there's so many others, uh, certainly 0:55:28.520 --> 0:55:31.040 Tucker Carlson. So give a sense what did you say 0:55:31.080 --> 0:55:32.920 and why did you say it, and why did you 0:55:33.000 --> 0:55:34.839 choose that moment to say it. 0:55:35.080 --> 0:55:37.399 So the reason that I chose the moment to say 0:55:37.400 --> 0:55:41.080 it is that Candice Owens, who has some issues of 0:55:41.080 --> 0:55:44.239 her own, she has been saying since Charlie's death that 0:55:44.280 --> 0:55:47.560 there was effectively a conspiracy to kill him. She's implicated 0:55:47.680 --> 0:55:51.320 pretty much everybody ranging from believe it or not, French 0:55:52.200 --> 0:55:57.600 intelligence to the Israelis, to various friends and family members 0:55:57.640 --> 0:56:01.560 possibly of Charlie in his work. And there have been 0:56:01.600 --> 0:56:04.600 an enormous number of people in the influencer space on 0:56:04.600 --> 0:56:06.279 the right who have gone along with this, who have 0:56:06.320 --> 0:56:09.399 massaged it, pretended not to notice it, tried to defend her, 0:56:09.640 --> 0:56:11.239 tried to pretend that it was an aspect of that 0:56:11.600 --> 0:56:13.520 questioning her was an aspect of free speech, which of 0:56:13.560 --> 0:56:16.759 course was a violation of free speech, rather which of 0:56:16.800 --> 0:56:18.640 course it isn't you know, criticism is not a violation 0:56:18.680 --> 0:56:20.759 of free speech. It's a form of free speech. And 0:56:21.760 --> 0:56:24.239 so I got up on stage and I basically gave 0:56:24.239 --> 0:56:27.840 a speech saying our responsibility as people with influence in 0:56:27.840 --> 0:56:32.000 the public space, we have some responsibilities, and those responsibilities 0:56:32.000 --> 0:56:35.239 include truth above all. We ought to give you. We 0:56:35.280 --> 0:56:36.760 ought to be clear about what we believe. We should 0:56:36.760 --> 0:56:39.360 not hide the ball. We should not allow quote unquote 0:56:39.360 --> 0:56:41.959 friendship to trump what is true. Just because you're friends 0:56:41.960 --> 0:56:44.440 with someone does not alleviate the responsibility for you to 0:56:44.440 --> 0:56:46.920 say when they're doing something that is wrong or immoral. 0:56:47.680 --> 0:56:49.880 We should not engage an audience capture. Just because our 0:56:49.880 --> 0:56:51.799 audience wants us to say a thing doesn't mean that 0:56:51.840 --> 0:56:55.800 we ought to say it. And we ought to ensure 0:56:56.280 --> 0:56:59.759 that we are held responsible for the things that we 0:56:59.760 --> 0:57:01.560 say and also the people that we have on and 0:57:01.600 --> 0:57:04.880 how we question those people. So, of course, anybody has 0:57:04.920 --> 0:57:07.239 the right to have anybody on their show who they want, 0:57:07.280 --> 0:57:09.200 and then they should treat those people how they want 0:57:09.239 --> 0:57:11.279 to treat those people. I mean, if if I were 0:57:11.320 --> 0:57:13.359 to have on somebody who's, you know, in a deeply 0:57:13.400 --> 0:57:15.560 adversarial position. I think what's great about this conversations you 0:57:15.600 --> 0:57:17.840 can see how adversarial we are with regard to some 0:57:17.880 --> 0:57:19.480 of our positions, but at the same time still have 0:57:19.520 --> 0:57:22.600 the discussion. You know, if you are if you are 0:57:22.640 --> 0:57:24.840 going to have on, for example, as Tucker Carlson did, 0:57:24.880 --> 0:57:28.960 Nick Flentes, who is a self stated Nazi apologist, and 0:57:29.160 --> 0:57:31.080 then you're going to treat him with kid gloves, then 0:57:31.240 --> 0:57:33.720 you ought to be held responsible for that in the 0:57:33.720 --> 0:57:36.880 court of public opinion. And if we as influencers do 0:57:36.960 --> 0:57:39.720 not do that job, if we if we lie to you, 0:57:39.880 --> 0:57:42.120 if we fibb to you, if we make predictions which 0:57:42.160 --> 0:57:44.200 we are then not held responsible for, if we hide 0:57:44.200 --> 0:57:46.120 behind quote unquote just asking questions. This is one of 0:57:46.160 --> 0:57:48.800 my buggaboos. I hate it. You hear this a lot 0:57:48.840 --> 0:57:50.960 in the influencer space, mostly on the right of someone 0:57:50.920 --> 0:57:53.080 on the left as well, this sort of you know, 0:57:53.160 --> 0:57:55.880 I'm not putting out a theory, I'm just asking questions. Well, 0:57:55.880 --> 0:57:59.080 there's a difference between seeking answers and just asking questions. 0:57:59.160 --> 0:58:02.000 Seeking answers, that's what questions are for. It's to get 0:58:02.080 --> 0:58:04.960 better information, more clarification. You know, I actould have a 0:58:05.000 --> 0:58:07.200 better idea after the question of the answer than I 0:58:07.200 --> 0:58:10.280 did before. Just asking questions is usually a guy's for 0:58:10.360 --> 0:58:14.000 willful ignorance and for positing a theory without having to 0:58:14.040 --> 0:58:16.480 carry the responsibility for positing that theory. So if I said, 0:58:16.480 --> 0:58:19.280 you know, I'm just asking questions about whether you have 0:58:19.400 --> 0:58:22.240 peculiar sexual proclivities, and I'm having evidence, I'm just asking 0:58:22.280 --> 0:58:24.520 the question, and then you say, well that what you 0:58:24.520 --> 0:58:26.720 were said, even coming from listen, I'm just asking questions. 0:58:26.800 --> 0:58:29.600 I'm not asking questions. I'm obviously attempting to impute something 0:58:29.640 --> 0:58:32.320 to you. And so this is what this speech was about. 0:58:32.320 --> 0:58:35.360 I named names in it. I mentioned I mentioned Tucker Carlson. 0:58:35.480 --> 0:58:37.520 I mentioned Megan Kelly, who had sort of gone out 0:58:37.560 --> 0:58:41.840 of her way to massage Candice Owens in her pursuit 0:58:41.880 --> 0:58:46.280 of bizarre conspiracy theories about about Erica and Charlie's murder. 0:58:46.680 --> 0:58:49.040 I mentioned Steve because I think Steve has been doing 0:58:49.040 --> 0:58:52.080 many of the same things. And so that was that 0:58:52.200 --> 0:58:54.000 was the speech at antheisy. 0:58:53.560 --> 0:58:56.160 And that you felt it was necessary to name names 0:58:56.200 --> 0:58:58.320 as opposed to imply he just felt it was important. 0:58:58.040 --> 0:58:59.760 Because because I think that I think that people should 0:58:59.760 --> 0:59:02.040 know exactly who they are listening to, particularly since they 0:59:02.040 --> 0:59:03.600 were going to hear from some of those people at 0:59:03.640 --> 0:59:06.200 the same event. And so I thought that people should, 0:59:06.360 --> 0:59:08.480 you know, be forewarned about the people they are going 0:59:08.480 --> 0:59:10.040 to hear about. Then they can make their own decisions 0:59:10.040 --> 0:59:13.880 and determined whether my assessment of those personalities is accurate 0:59:13.960 --> 0:59:14.520 or inaccurate. 0:59:14.880 --> 0:59:19.160 Uh. And the reaction was exactly as you anticipated. 0:59:19.920 --> 0:59:21.960 I think that the reaction in the in the in 0:59:21.960 --> 0:59:23.760 the room was I think overwhelming because a lot of 0:59:23.760 --> 0:59:25.880 a lot of people were very upset that people had 0:59:25.880 --> 0:59:29.640 been saying this about Charlie's murder, which again was carried 0:59:29.680 --> 0:59:35.080 out by all available evidence by a person motivated by 0:59:35.800 --> 0:59:40.919 hatred of Charlie's position on transgender issues in particular. And 0:59:41.280 --> 0:59:43.520 you know, all the evidence points to Tyler Robinson as 0:59:43.520 --> 0:59:44.960 being the person who shot Charlie Kirk. And so I 0:59:45.000 --> 0:59:46.320 think that a lot of people in the audience were 0:59:46.360 --> 0:59:49.400 deeply offended and upset, correctly so, at the kind of 0:59:49.440 --> 0:59:53.439 specious conspiracy conspiracy theories that are promoted by this group, 0:59:53.640 --> 0:59:56.120 by the group of folks, The sort of blowback that 0:59:56.160 --> 0:59:59.440 came afterward was really interesting. You know, there are a 0:59:59.480 --> 1:00:02.200 lot of people who obviously we're very upset, and many 1:00:02.200 --> 1:00:04.000 of the people who had named I'm not surprised came 1:00:04.040 --> 1:00:05.880 back and you know, fired back. I will say that 1:00:05.920 --> 1:00:07.760 I don't think any of them actually argued with the 1:00:07.760 --> 1:00:10.080 point that I was making. They seem to make collateral attacks, 1:00:10.880 --> 1:00:14.760 imputing intents to me, suggesting that my speech had something 1:00:14.800 --> 1:00:16.160 to do with Isral, which is funny since I didn't 1:00:16.160 --> 1:00:19.400 mention Israel one time in the entire speech, and I 1:00:19.440 --> 1:00:21.840 found that sort of bizarre. And then obviously you've seen, 1:00:22.000 --> 1:00:23.880 you know, sort of the influencer war is going on. 1:00:24.120 --> 1:00:25.840 But the whole point that I was making is here's 1:00:25.840 --> 1:00:28.040 a principle. Either to go hold the principle or you 1:00:28.080 --> 1:00:30.160 don't up hould the principle. If you don't uphold the principle, 1:00:30.160 --> 1:00:32.200 I'm gonna call you out for not upholding the principle. 1:00:32.400 --> 1:00:34.680 And it really is quite simple. It's not about friendship, 1:00:34.680 --> 1:00:37.560 it's not about whether we go fishing together. None of 1:00:37.600 --> 1:00:40.840 that has anything to do with the principle that's at stake, 1:00:40.920 --> 1:00:42.560 because if we want to have an honest discussion with 1:00:42.600 --> 1:00:44.680 one another, then we actually should be honest about the 1:00:44.680 --> 1:00:46.760 principles that we hold and if we disagree, we disagree, 1:00:46.760 --> 1:00:49.280 but clarity before agreement. As my friend Donis Prager says. 1:00:49.120 --> 1:00:51.080 What were you close with Charlie? 1:00:51.680 --> 1:00:53.360 I don't want to pretend that we were best friends 1:00:53.440 --> 1:00:54.960 or anything. One of the things I said in the 1:00:54.960 --> 1:00:57.040 speech is I think that it's pretty rare actually in 1:00:57.080 --> 1:00:59.320 politics for people say that they're friends in politics, these 1:00:59.320 --> 1:01:01.200 are usually not well, you're going and hanging out with 1:01:01.200 --> 1:01:03.920 on the weevenings. It's not real, okay, Like whenever you 1:01:03.960 --> 1:01:07.240 hear politicians, oh, we're best for them, it's such bullshit. 1:01:07.240 --> 1:01:10.600 I'm sorry, bullshit. There may be a couple of exceptions. 1:01:10.600 --> 1:01:13.080 They're rare, okay. The reality is that they are business 1:01:13.200 --> 1:01:15.320 colleagues and associates in the same way that most people 1:01:15.320 --> 1:01:18.280 have business colleagues and associates that they see at the office. 1:01:18.360 --> 1:01:20.200 We see each other rare, more rarely than you probably 1:01:20.200 --> 1:01:22.640 see your business colleagues or associates at the office. 1:01:22.640 --> 1:01:25.560 You respected how he organized on the campus level. Yeah, 1:01:25.560 --> 1:01:28.080 I mean, Charlie, all the echoes of things you were doing. 1:01:28.600 --> 1:01:32.120 Charlie was incredibly gifted as an organizer. I won't say 1:01:32.120 --> 1:01:34.680 that we agreed on everything politically, because clearly we didn't. 1:01:35.120 --> 1:01:38.200 But I think that you know Charlie as a as 1:01:38.200 --> 1:01:42.360 a person who was willing to go into fraud spaces obviously, 1:01:42.360 --> 1:01:44.400 and he was killed doing this, and to and to 1:01:44.520 --> 1:01:47.600 speak his principles to people who disagreed and do so 1:01:47.840 --> 1:01:50.200 in what I think overwhelmingly was sort of an honest 1:01:50.200 --> 1:01:52.400 and decent fashion. I think that was a very good thing. 1:01:52.800 --> 1:01:56.160 What Tucker Carlson in you history? Do you? 1:01:56.680 --> 1:01:58.320 I mean, I'm not sure that we have a history 1:01:58.320 --> 1:02:02.240 so much as Tucker seems to object to my politics 1:02:02.280 --> 1:02:02.920 and I object to his. 1:02:03.400 --> 1:02:03.480 Uh. 1:02:03.720 --> 1:02:06.280 I think Tucker tries to personalize this. I think Megan 1:02:06.280 --> 1:02:09.560 has tried to personalize this. I don't believe in personalizing 1:02:09.800 --> 1:02:12.800 these things. I was asked by somebody, you know, would 1:02:12.840 --> 1:02:15.160 Tucker and I ever before I'd go fishing with Tucker. 1:02:15.160 --> 1:02:17.080 I don't care. I mean, that doesn't matter to me. 1:02:17.520 --> 1:02:19.840 The question is his principles and the things that that 1:02:19.920 --> 1:02:21.680 he says. I think that Tucker. I gave a speech 1:02:21.800 --> 1:02:24.280 right before TPUs a Heritage Foundation where I pointed out 1:02:24.320 --> 1:02:27.000 that the Tucker is not an advocate for conservatism in 1:02:27.000 --> 1:02:29.240 any way that I can identify conservatism. He is he's 1:02:29.280 --> 1:02:32.520 not in favor of a more limited government of checks 1:02:32.560 --> 1:02:35.320 and balances. He's come out in favor of feudalism fairly recently. 1:02:36.080 --> 1:02:40.240 He's not in favor of traditional institutions. He seems to 1:02:40.320 --> 1:02:42.919 think that they have lost their way. He is, he's 1:02:43.080 --> 1:02:45.240 in favor of what appears to me a sort of 1:02:45.240 --> 1:02:47.960 horseshoe theory. No, I'm Chomsky foreign policy, where America is 1:02:47.960 --> 1:02:50.800 always the bad actor in the world. And so I 1:02:50.960 --> 1:02:56.920 think I read surprised, and I think that you know 1:02:56.960 --> 1:02:59.600 when when the biggest thing that the Tucker engages in 1:02:59.640 --> 1:03:02.320 and the just asking questions, which which he's very fond of, 1:03:02.920 --> 1:03:04.720 is And this is something again that is a both 1:03:04.720 --> 1:03:08.480 sides problem, and that is a general conspiracism about the world. 1:03:08.480 --> 1:03:11.600 The worst thing happening in our politics is a grievance 1:03:11.640 --> 1:03:14.000 based politics that is being set up by actors on 1:03:14.040 --> 1:03:17.880 both sides, which basically says, the failures in your life 1:03:18.000 --> 1:03:21.480 are generally speaking, not your fault. You have no responsibility 1:03:21.520 --> 1:03:23.360 for them, and you need to and you need to 1:03:23.360 --> 1:03:26.400 shift the burden of your own responsibility over to systems. 1:03:26.600 --> 1:03:28.960 And so those systems could be the free market is 1:03:29.000 --> 1:03:33.200 responsible for your failures, or the systems of history are 1:03:33.240 --> 1:03:37.200 responsible for your failures. And listen, there are real conspiracies 1:03:37.200 --> 1:03:40.200 out there. They exist and usually can provide evidence for them. 1:03:40.200 --> 1:03:42.720 That's the difference between a conspiracy and a conspiracy theory. 1:03:42.880 --> 1:03:46.200 But if they you're going theory is that the reason 1:03:46.200 --> 1:03:48.080 that you are lacking in life is because the most 1:03:48.080 --> 1:03:50.360 successful people in your society have rigged the system on 1:03:50.400 --> 1:03:52.760 their own behalf, and therefore they must be brought low 1:03:52.880 --> 1:03:55.840 in order for you to succeed. First, you need to 1:03:55.840 --> 1:03:59.439 show me that that's actually evidentiarily the case. You can't 1:03:59.480 --> 1:04:02.560 just make that claim and then abdicate all responsibility for 1:04:02.680 --> 1:04:04.920 doing the right things in your own life. And the 1:04:05.160 --> 1:04:07.680 number one message that I would that I constantly am 1:04:07.720 --> 1:04:10.240 trying to give to what I would now call young people, 1:04:10.280 --> 1:04:12.840 since you know I'm of the older generation now and 1:04:12.840 --> 1:04:17.000 I exactly is get off your ass and do the thing. 1:04:17.160 --> 1:04:19.360 I hear people complaining I can't get married. It's just 1:04:19.400 --> 1:04:20.720 so hard to get married, and no one can get 1:04:20.720 --> 1:04:23.800 married these days. Bullshit. I'm sorry, that's not true. You 1:04:23.840 --> 1:04:26.360 absolutely can find someone in You absolutely can get married. 1:04:26.400 --> 1:04:28.400 Your grandparents are way poorer than you, and they got 1:04:28.440 --> 1:04:31.080 married and they had more kids. Hey, this is just nonsense. 1:04:31.200 --> 1:04:34.520 You are the richest, most privileged people in the history 1:04:34.520 --> 1:04:36.960 of the world living in the United States today. Just 1:04:37.040 --> 1:04:39.840 relatively speaking, doesn't mean everything's perfect because I'm not comparing 1:04:39.840 --> 1:04:42.680 it to perfect. You can't compare anything in life to perfect. 1:04:42.920 --> 1:04:45.520 What you can say is that if you are sitting 1:04:45.520 --> 1:04:48.080 around in a country that has a GDP per capital 1:04:48.080 --> 1:04:51.680 among the highest on planet Earth, and open jobs and 1:04:51.720 --> 1:04:53.800 the ability to move to those open jobs, and the 1:04:53.840 --> 1:04:55.560 ability to vote on your leaders, and I get shot 1:04:55.560 --> 1:04:56.920 in the streets like people are getting shot in the 1:04:56.920 --> 1:04:59.960 streets in Iran, you should consider yourself pretty damned fortune. 1:05:00.360 --> 1:05:01.800 And maybe you should start with what can I do 1:05:01.840 --> 1:05:04.200 to make my life better today before you figure that 1:05:04.200 --> 1:05:05.920 it's the system. Now, that doesn't mean they're on problems 1:05:05.920 --> 1:05:08.000 with the system. And this is why I like these conversations. 1:05:08.040 --> 1:05:09.920 And we can get very specific about policy and how 1:05:09.960 --> 1:05:12.080 we fix a policy. So it's to make it easier. 1:05:12.120 --> 1:05:14.760 But I think that the biggest the American dream is 1:05:15.160 --> 1:05:17.960 you can make it. You can right, get government out 1:05:17.960 --> 1:05:19.800 of your way, get everybody out of your way, Let 1:05:20.000 --> 1:05:23.600 let people succeed. And we do need, obviously a functional 1:05:23.680 --> 1:05:25.960 social fabric, right which is why you've seen a lot 1:05:26.000 --> 1:05:29.320 of the institutions, like I would say churches, synagogues break down. 1:05:29.320 --> 1:05:31.800 That social fabric breaking down is a massive problem because 1:05:31.800 --> 1:05:34.320 that's your safety net when family breaks down, that's your 1:05:34.320 --> 1:05:37.400 supportive safety net for when for when things go wrong. 1:05:37.600 --> 1:05:39.280 We need to, we need to, you know, on a 1:05:39.280 --> 1:05:43.280 social level, help restore all of that. But the desire 1:05:43.320 --> 1:05:45.920 by politicians to say I alone can fix, which is 1:05:45.960 --> 1:05:48.960 something President Trump said but has also been said by 1:05:49.120 --> 1:05:51.640 you know a lot of that Zarmmdani talking about the 1:05:51.680 --> 1:05:53.959 warm embrace of collectivism, which is insane by. 1:05:53.880 --> 1:05:56.960 The way nature of campaigns. The campaign promises you may 1:05:57.080 --> 1:06:00.240 on day one, right on day one and the crane 1:06:00.320 --> 1:06:01.000 Russian War. 1:06:01.080 --> 1:06:03.320 Day one, or give me more power, and I will 1:06:03.320 --> 1:06:05.880 solve the affordability crisis. Or give me more power and 1:06:06.320 --> 1:06:08.360 I will ensure that you have a good paying job 1:06:08.400 --> 1:06:09.880 and you can buy a house on a single income 1:06:09.920 --> 1:06:12.280 the way that your grandfather could in nineteen fifty two. 1:06:12.440 --> 1:06:14.520 And I mean, first of all, let's just be real, 1:06:15.200 --> 1:06:17.800 the heusard grandpa was buying in nineteen fifty two, you 1:06:17.800 --> 1:06:20.320 wouldn't want to live in. They're kind of crappy, Okay, 1:06:20.360 --> 1:06:21.720 it was like a brick It was like a brick 1:06:21.800 --> 1:06:24.280 box in Detroit, and your grandpa was working on a 1:06:24.760 --> 1:06:28.720 ford line riveting. Okay, now you're not how many people 1:06:28.760 --> 1:06:30.720 are riveting today? The answer is none. The machines are 1:06:30.760 --> 1:06:34.760 doing the riveting. Right. We should recognize the reality of 1:06:34.800 --> 1:06:37.600 our situation as opposed to creating either a false promise 1:06:37.640 --> 1:06:41.080 of utopia or a false utopian past that wasn't really 1:06:41.120 --> 1:06:43.760 existing in nineteen fifty two. The reason the United States, 1:06:43.960 --> 1:06:45.320 the reason we in the United States were able to 1:06:45.360 --> 1:06:50.240 survive on one on a one parent's income, two tax 1:06:50.360 --> 1:06:53.840 versus one hundred and four, it's because it's because the 1:06:54.000 --> 1:06:56.880 entire rest of the world did not. It had been destroyed. 1:06:56.920 --> 1:06:59.000 Every place on Earth had been destroyed. As of nineteen 1:06:59.040 --> 1:07:01.840 fifty two. United States was basically left untouched in the 1:07:01.840 --> 1:07:04.959 homeland by World War two, and literally every place else 1:07:05.280 --> 1:07:07.080 had been destroyed. And so that was all in export 1:07:07.160 --> 1:07:08.680 market for the United States. So much so we had 1:07:08.680 --> 1:07:10.680 to prop up our export markets by doing things like 1:07:10.680 --> 1:07:12.520 the Marshall Plan so people would actually have money to 1:07:12.520 --> 1:07:15.200 buy things. Right, And then it turns out that, you know, 1:07:15.280 --> 1:07:17.560 by the nineteen sixties, reality was setting in many of 1:07:17.560 --> 1:07:20.080 the union contracts that had been negotiated weren't sustainable, and 1:07:20.080 --> 1:07:22.080 we were being out competed by foreign sources. You know, 1:07:22.160 --> 1:07:25.640 like let's just again, ignorance of sort of economic history 1:07:25.680 --> 1:07:28.040 and how people have actually lived throughout history leads to, 1:07:28.360 --> 1:07:30.200 I think, on the right of nostalgia for an economic 1:07:30.200 --> 1:07:32.520 time that didn't exist, and on the left to a 1:07:32.560 --> 1:07:35.240 sort of utopianism about what is possible that is also 1:07:35.440 --> 1:07:37.560 not possible. And I think that we should start from 1:07:37.560 --> 1:07:40.840 a position in the United States of gratitude and duty 1:07:41.240 --> 1:07:44.440 and hard work and virtue and recognition that we live 1:07:44.440 --> 1:07:46.520 in a free country where the vast majority of decisions 1:07:46.560 --> 1:07:49.080 are your own. And then if you and then let's 1:07:49.080 --> 1:07:50.760 and then let's seal what the problems. 1:07:50.640 --> 1:07:52.760 And you laid all this out on line. Since Scavengers 1:07:52.840 --> 1:07:56.600 in detailed with historic context and traveled the globe, I mean, 1:07:56.640 --> 1:08:00.800 each chapter begins in different places of place from you know, London, 1:08:01.240 --> 1:08:04.720 Oxford and Aaron, Poland. Which is interesting that that section 1:08:04.840 --> 1:08:06.560 with Elon Musk and others. But let me ask just 1:08:06.560 --> 1:08:08.960 a little bit. It's interesting the politics and nostalgia and 1:08:09.000 --> 1:08:10.880 I tried to paint this forgive me keep going back 1:08:10.920 --> 1:08:12.320 to the state of the state I just gave. But 1:08:12.520 --> 1:08:14.640 we talked about the politics in nostalgia, try to put 1:08:14.640 --> 1:08:18.000 America in reverse, but try of selling this notion of 1:08:18.360 --> 1:08:25.160 this utopian notion. And it's interesting you cast some critique 1:08:25.160 --> 1:08:26.760 not just on the right, but also on the left 1:08:26.760 --> 1:08:28.720 in that respect. And I imagine you weren't a big 1:08:28.720 --> 1:08:31.920 fan of Elizabeth Warren's speech yesterday. No, on the basis 1:08:31.920 --> 1:08:32.880 of what you just said. 1:08:33.800 --> 1:08:35.880 But Elizabeth Horne was much more interesting when she was 1:08:35.920 --> 1:08:37.760 a professor at Harvard Law. I was there at the time, 1:08:37.800 --> 1:08:39.519 and she's writing The Two Income Trap, which was a 1:08:39.560 --> 1:08:40.479 much more interesting book. 1:08:40.680 --> 1:08:44.479 Interesting, let me just talk about it. And I appreciate 1:08:44.479 --> 1:08:47.479 the trap of promises being promoted in politics and the 1:08:47.560 --> 1:08:50.920 nature of politics both political parties and Trump sort of 1:08:51.120 --> 1:08:54.559 trapped now on this affordability question. As we tape this, 1:08:54.840 --> 1:08:59.320 he's in Michigan. He's part of this affordability tour you've 1:08:59.360 --> 1:09:03.240 been in and again just to your credit, calling balls 1:09:03.240 --> 1:09:06.439 and strikes. You know, it goes back even your Brightbart days, 1:09:06.479 --> 1:09:08.920 as you had some issues with the early aspects of 1:09:08.960 --> 1:09:10.639 Trump in terms of this sort of just the character 1:09:10.680 --> 1:09:13.040 personality issues. But you've been a big supporter of him. 1:09:13.040 --> 1:09:15.000 More broadly, Yeah, I did not vote for either candidate 1:09:15.000 --> 1:09:17.200 in twenty sixteen. I voted for a President Trump in 1:09:17.200 --> 1:09:20.000 twenty twenty and I actually campaigned on behalf of a 1:09:20.000 --> 1:09:22.559 bunch of centate candidates and and did some events for 1:09:22.560 --> 1:09:23.160 President Trump. 1:09:23.160 --> 1:09:26.040 And you've been very forceful in your support of what 1:09:26.080 --> 1:09:29.760 he did in Venezuela. And I think more broadly, just 1:09:29.800 --> 1:09:33.559 in terms of looking at the picture across the across 1:09:33.560 --> 1:09:36.120 the globe, but back here in the United States, it 1:09:36.280 --> 1:09:39.240 relates to tariff policy you've very critical of. You've been 1:09:39.240 --> 1:09:44.680 critically tariff policy on other domestic issues. How do you 1:09:44.760 --> 1:09:47.400 score the first full year of Donald Trump? 1:09:47.600 --> 1:09:49.680 So I think that when it came, I think the 1:09:49.760 --> 1:09:52.280 number one domestic issue for President Trump was closing the 1:09:52.320 --> 1:09:54.720 southern border A plus, right, I mean that I think 1:09:54.800 --> 1:09:57.040 put the law to the Democratic proposal that you needed 1:09:57.080 --> 1:09:58.040 comprehensive immigration. 1:09:58.160 --> 1:10:01.200 You also acknowledged for about six months it was substantially 1:10:01.240 --> 1:10:05.600 eighty seven eighty ninety percent closed when Biden decided that he, ultimately, 1:10:06.160 --> 1:10:08.479 to your point, could do something about it, which they 1:10:08.560 --> 1:10:09.800 suggested they couldn't. 1:10:09.479 --> 1:10:12.640 Right, And the fact that they basically lied about that 1:10:12.680 --> 1:10:14.479 for several years, saying there's nothing we can do. We 1:10:14.479 --> 1:10:16.639 need congressional action in order to shut the southern border. 1:10:16.800 --> 1:10:21.360 We have more areas of agreement on this. That's put 1:10:21.400 --> 1:10:23.800 almost foreigner national guard down on the border going back 1:10:23.840 --> 1:10:27.040 to twenty nineteen. So I've been pretty consistent on that basis, 1:10:27.080 --> 1:10:29.360 And of course, California I do absorb a lot of 1:10:29.360 --> 1:10:32.599 that on our own with migrant facilities in three major counties, 1:10:32.600 --> 1:10:35.719 five migrants that working for Jewish family services, Catholic charities 1:10:35.720 --> 1:10:38.280 that did God's work. But at the same time try 1:10:38.320 --> 1:10:41.360 to put a lid on what was, you know, an 1:10:41.439 --> 1:10:43.439 unacceptable commission. 1:10:43.439 --> 1:10:45.760 So that's that's that's a big win for presidents for sure, 1:10:46.080 --> 1:10:47.479 so much so that it's not even a top issue 1:10:47.479 --> 1:10:48.160 for voters anymore. 1:10:48.200 --> 1:10:49.519 Well, he seems to forget about it. 1:10:49.560 --> 1:10:51.240 Well, I mean I don't think he's forgotten about it. 1:10:51.240 --> 1:10:52.960 I think that he made again. I think a lot 1:10:52.960 --> 1:10:56.600 of promises with regards to mass deportations that in practicality 1:10:56.640 --> 1:10:59.200 are probably not fulfillable. And what you see is, you know, 1:10:59.280 --> 1:11:01.479 Tom Homan, his orders are, who's being a little bit 1:11:01.520 --> 1:11:02.439 more meticulous about his. 1:11:02.360 --> 1:11:05.200 Life and word the temperance come from home and jeez, yeah, 1:11:05.200 --> 1:11:06.679 I know we're. 1:11:06.560 --> 1:11:08.160 Going to go out, We're going to go after criminal 1:11:08.160 --> 1:11:10.120 illegal immigrants. Those are the people who are mostly going 1:11:10.120 --> 1:11:11.320 to deploy resource. 1:11:10.960 --> 1:11:11.439 They said. 1:11:12.040 --> 1:11:15.760 And I think that overwhelmingly by the numbers that that 1:11:15.840 --> 1:11:18.120 has been the case as far as I'm aware. But 1:11:18.400 --> 1:11:19.040 when it. 1:11:18.960 --> 1:11:22.320 Comes to questionable but I appreciate but still. 1:11:22.479 --> 1:11:24.400 Different data on that As a general rule, I think 1:11:24.400 --> 1:11:26.680 that's a win for President Trump. Obviously, I agree with 1:11:26.800 --> 1:11:29.519 the extension of the current tax rates and not allowing 1:11:29.520 --> 1:11:30.080 them to rise. 1:11:31.400 --> 1:11:32.920 You don't agree with I mean, I hate to bring 1:11:32.960 --> 1:11:34.800 up Steve Banner. I mean this notion of a more 1:11:34.840 --> 1:11:38.360 progressive tax rate for corporations and the wealthiest among us, 1:11:38.360 --> 1:11:38.840 I mean no. 1:11:38.760 --> 1:11:39.760 I think it's a bunch of I think it's a 1:11:39.800 --> 1:11:41.479 bunch of nonsense. And the reason I think that, yes, 1:11:41.479 --> 1:11:42.680 and the reason I think that it's a bunch of 1:11:42.680 --> 1:11:45.920 nonsense is because if because corporations are just legal entities, 1:11:46.000 --> 1:11:48.400 those legal entities are comprised by people. If you tax 1:11:48.439 --> 1:11:50.120 a corporation, that is still money that in the end 1:11:50.200 --> 1:11:52.120 is coming away from the people who comprise the corporation. 1:11:52.280 --> 1:11:55.320 Sounding like Romney when you were covering them in with bridepart. 1:11:54.920 --> 1:11:57.679 Well, I mean that this is just like basic black 1:11:57.720 --> 1:12:00.920 letter econ one O one. Corporation doesn't like a magical 1:12:00.960 --> 1:12:03.320 existence or whereby it hires people. It's not how there's 1:12:03.479 --> 1:12:05.360 there are people who make those decisions. People get paid 1:12:05.360 --> 1:12:07.240 by the corporation. Most people in the country are getting 1:12:07.240 --> 1:12:07.639 a paycheck. 1:12:07.960 --> 1:12:09.799 You know, we have established you like the big beautiful 1:12:09.800 --> 1:12:11.840 bill is where they the tax structure. You don't give 1:12:11.840 --> 1:12:13.719 a damn about debt, But that's another conversation. 1:12:13.800 --> 1:12:15.800 No, I definitely give a damn about debt, but I. 1:12:15.760 --> 1:12:17.479 Do not think I don't appear too does he. 1:12:17.720 --> 1:12:19.760 I don't think anyone seems to care very much about that. 1:12:19.840 --> 1:12:20.200 Government. 1:12:20.320 --> 1:12:21.679 Yeah, I mean to be fair. 1:12:21.520 --> 1:12:23.600 Well, we balance our budgets just for the record, just 1:12:23.640 --> 1:12:24.040 for the right. 1:12:24.080 --> 1:12:25.679 I mean kind of one. 1:12:25.600 --> 1:12:30.080 Hundred percent legally statutorily required, talked about by reserves. We 1:12:30.120 --> 1:12:32.240 talk about pandemic that's totally. 1:12:32.000 --> 1:12:35.679 Required that we are running. You know, the last several 1:12:35.800 --> 1:12:37.400 years the budget is run what a twenty billion dollars 1:12:37.439 --> 1:12:38.200 do No. 1:12:38.240 --> 1:12:40.600 We just I just submitted a balanced budget, and I 1:12:40.640 --> 1:12:45.960 mean a dominumous two billion dollar, two point stuff billion dollar, 1:12:46.640 --> 1:12:49.120 which is a rounding error in the state balance budgets. 1:12:49.160 --> 1:12:52.720 I mean, period and half a billion dollars unfunded liabilities, 1:12:52.880 --> 1:12:54.240 increased tax rates. 1:12:54.240 --> 1:12:56.639 Well, we have increased taxes since twenty eleven. I haven't 1:12:56.680 --> 1:12:59.080 increased any taxes. That's just factually untrue. 1:12:59.240 --> 1:13:01.240 I'm not saying I'm not saying that you increased axes. 1:13:01.560 --> 1:13:05.080 You but your friends continue to believe Newsome's tax rates. Anyway, 1:13:05.200 --> 1:13:07.840 let's go back to Trumps. I appreciate when you go 1:13:07.840 --> 1:13:09.599 down the rabbit hole California, but I want to talk 1:13:09.600 --> 1:13:12.360 about in interesting so we established from your perspective, he 1:13:12.640 --> 1:13:15.680 fulfilled his promises on the border, mastery, importations of work 1:13:15.720 --> 1:13:18.320 in progress, and good people can disagree as it relates 1:13:18.320 --> 1:13:20.920 to whether or not he'll achieve that. I think it's 1:13:20.920 --> 1:13:21.600 apples when it. 1:13:21.560 --> 1:13:23.680 Comes to when it comes to when it comes to 1:13:23.880 --> 1:13:26.800 dismantling structures inside the federal government. On DEEI, I think 1:13:26.800 --> 1:13:28.640 that's a very good thing. I think a meritocracy is 1:13:28.680 --> 1:13:30.600 what ought to be about the economy. 1:13:30.640 --> 1:13:34.360 What about the quality of our lives in the context 1:13:34.360 --> 1:13:36.320 of what we deal with day in and day out, 1:13:36.840 --> 1:13:40.680 just your typical family, What his Trump done that has 1:13:40.720 --> 1:13:42.280 significantly benefited us and less. 1:13:42.320 --> 1:13:44.200 So this is where I'll go back to my funds 1:13:44.280 --> 1:13:44.880 I'm not getting right. 1:13:44.880 --> 1:13:45.400 That's a big text. 1:13:45.720 --> 1:13:47.320 This is this where I'll go back to my sort 1:13:47.320 --> 1:13:49.000 of fundamental point, which is that I think that the 1:13:49.040 --> 1:13:52.120 government guaranteeing that your life is going to be enormously 1:13:52.160 --> 1:13:56.000 better based on what our at best marginal changes to 1:13:56.160 --> 1:13:57.920 the structure of the federal government. I think that's an 1:13:57.920 --> 1:14:00.599 over promise. So I think that how our lives better. Well, 1:14:00.640 --> 1:14:02.800 I mean, inflation is obviously down. It started to drop 1:14:02.880 --> 1:14:04.960 under the late Biden and then it started to. 1:14:05.040 --> 1:14:07.040 I just saw the numbers today. I mean you saw 1:14:07.160 --> 1:14:09.920 the food was up eight percent. You saw grocery groceries 1:14:09.960 --> 1:14:12.360 up eight percent, and food was up seven percent. 1:14:12.400 --> 1:14:15.800 I mean the overall CPI is running about two point 1:14:15.840 --> 1:14:17.519 six two point seven percent. That's the way down from 1:14:17.520 --> 1:14:18.439 where it was two years ago. 1:14:18.520 --> 1:14:20.800 Still now that goes to that too, I agree, but 1:14:21.360 --> 1:14:22.479 stuck where it was a year ago. 1:14:22.560 --> 1:14:24.120 This is why I'm not in favor of, for example, 1:14:24.160 --> 1:14:25.800 luring the interest rates. I think that the Federals the. 1:14:25.840 --> 1:14:29.479 Worst job market in sixteen years, manufacturing factory jobs down. 1:14:30.000 --> 1:14:31.320 Tariffs have not helped the manufacturing. 1:14:31.560 --> 1:14:34.600 I average person's paying more for Halloween. 1:14:34.800 --> 1:14:36.800 We paid a little more than they were last than 1:14:36.840 --> 1:14:38.840 they were last year on a margin, sort of sort 1:14:38.840 --> 1:14:40.760 of on on a low rate. I mean, the I 1:14:40.800 --> 1:14:41.160 think that. 1:14:41.240 --> 1:14:44.719 Can get rid of those terriffs, that would be significant. Pause. 1:14:44.760 --> 1:14:46.120 I've been a big advocate of getting rid of the 1:14:46.160 --> 1:14:49.719 tariff since literally day one. The biggest, you know, issue 1:14:49.880 --> 1:14:52.320 that I see with the Trump administration on the economy 1:14:52.680 --> 1:14:54.479 is that the promise that Trump thought he was making 1:14:54.560 --> 1:14:56.120 is not the promise. I think that it actually came 1:14:56.160 --> 1:14:59.040 out latorically so rhetorically he was saying, everything's going to 1:14:59.080 --> 1:15:02.240 become affordable again. And what people mean by affordable is 1:15:02.280 --> 1:15:05.000 I want twenty nineteen prices. Yeah, okay, no one is 1:15:05.040 --> 1:15:07.840 getting twenty nineteen prices much. We can do it, so 1:15:07.920 --> 1:15:11.520 we get in exactly if we get into a recession stagflation, 1:15:11.560 --> 1:15:13.400 would know, you need actual stagnation, right, you need you 1:15:13.479 --> 1:15:16.679 need like an actual thing, depression or recession stand correct. 1:15:16.920 --> 1:15:20.320 And so the the sort that that promise is not 1:15:20.400 --> 1:15:23.120 a coherent one. It's why I actually had some sympathy 1:15:23.120 --> 1:15:26.200 for one. He said, you know, affordability is you know, nonsense. 1:15:26.560 --> 1:15:29.920 I think what he meant by that actually is that affordability. 1:15:29.960 --> 1:15:32.680 When have you ever thought, hey, everything is affordable? 1:15:32.960 --> 1:15:33.120 Right? 1:15:33.200 --> 1:15:35.559 Pretty rare in anyone's life to say things are just 1:15:35.680 --> 1:15:38.600 affordable because a dollar store, right, it's a comparative. 1:15:38.200 --> 1:15:40.040 To me, now it's a dollar twenty nine at the dollars. 1:15:40.200 --> 1:15:42.800 And so specifically saying and specifically speaking, I think it's 1:15:42.800 --> 1:15:44.800 good that inflation is down. I think it's good that 1:15:44.840 --> 1:15:47.599 the stock market is up. Fifty percent of Americans hold stocks, 1:15:47.640 --> 1:15:49.519 and when the stock market is robust, that means there 1:15:49.520 --> 1:15:52.760 can be more investments in, for example, infrastructure projects and 1:15:52.800 --> 1:15:54.080 data centers and all the rest. 1:15:54.640 --> 1:15:54.800 You know. 1:15:55.040 --> 1:15:57.599 I'm a believer that there is in fact a bubble 1:15:57.640 --> 1:15:59.360 that's going on in the stock market because there's an 1:15:59.439 --> 1:16:01.760 enormous amount momentum at the top end, and most of 1:16:01.760 --> 1:16:04.280 the games in the stock market are happening in stocks. 1:16:04.880 --> 1:16:06.720 It doesn't mean that a I won't be an amazing thing. 1:16:06.760 --> 1:16:08.160 I think it is an amazing thing. But I do 1:16:08.200 --> 1:16:09.960 think that there will be a winning at the top 1:16:10.040 --> 1:16:11.720 end of the market. When that happens, then there will 1:16:11.760 --> 1:16:15.040 probably be a depression of some sort. Not a great depression, 1:16:15.040 --> 1:16:17.080 but I mean, like the depressed prices in the markets. 1:16:17.120 --> 1:16:18.920 I think that a lot of these stocks are trading 1:16:18.920 --> 1:16:22.679 at unsustainable pe ratios. So you know, I'm concerned about 1:16:22.760 --> 1:16:25.400 all those things. That the main critique I have for 1:16:25.439 --> 1:16:28.840 President Trump on the economic front is that investors what 1:16:28.880 --> 1:16:33.439 they are really looking for is number one, less regulation 1:16:33.680 --> 1:16:37.200 is an investment, but number two consistency and the lack 1:16:37.240 --> 1:16:40.680 of consistency at the federal level is incredibly difficult for 1:16:40.720 --> 1:16:43.360 investors to navigate. And actually I think that if the 1:16:43.400 --> 1:16:45.320 Supreme Court steps in and says no to the tariffs, 1:16:45.320 --> 1:16:48.760 you'll actually see a rather large economic boost because of it, 1:16:48.800 --> 1:16:51.080 because the Supreme Court will place the limitation then on 1:16:51.120 --> 1:16:53.240 the executive branch records so. 1:16:53.320 --> 1:16:55.280 That he can oppose with other means, though that's going 1:16:55.320 --> 1:16:56.519 to be the one the other and then that the. 1:16:56.520 --> 1:16:58.640 Supreme Court will you know, will likely step in at 1:16:58.680 --> 1:16:59.240 that point. 1:16:59.240 --> 1:17:00.760 Six months here. Yeah. 1:17:01.120 --> 1:17:03.960 Probably Again, I'm very critical of the Terran. 1:17:03.920 --> 1:17:07.120 Yeah, no, I appreciate the consistency, yes, just but on 1:17:07.240 --> 1:17:10.040 Trump generally, I'm curious just the. 1:17:10.320 --> 1:17:12.000 On foreign policy, which you put it to the side. 1:17:12.000 --> 1:17:14.800 I think Trump has been the greatest foreign policy president 1:17:14.800 --> 1:17:16.640 in my lifetime. I don't think it's close. I think 1:17:16.680 --> 1:17:19.040 he's been spectacular and foreign policy and that's with and 1:17:19.080 --> 1:17:21.880 that's with many of my critiques with regards to, for example, Ukraine, 1:17:21.880 --> 1:17:24.200 where I'm significantly more hawkish than the administration has been. 1:17:24.320 --> 1:17:26.439 And did you feel that way in his first term? 1:17:26.520 --> 1:17:29.320 Yes, I thought yes, I was very much an advocate 1:17:29.320 --> 1:17:31.439 of his foreign policy. I thought that that in terms 1:17:31.439 --> 1:17:34.479 of his foreign policy, he is, as he said before, 1:17:34.520 --> 1:17:36.559 he has not got us into any major wars, which 1:17:36.600 --> 1:17:37.680 is a good thing. 1:17:38.000 --> 1:17:41.080 Do you use the military sixty seven significant. 1:17:40.479 --> 1:17:43.559 Time he has used the military, and I think targeted 1:17:43.600 --> 1:17:47.599 and pinpointed ways that do not reinforce the Iraq war 1:17:47.640 --> 1:17:49.479 syndrome that you know, we need to put hundreds of 1:17:49.479 --> 1:17:52.360 thousands of troops on the ground. I think the President 1:17:52.479 --> 1:17:55.800 has a very good feel for The thing about foreign 1:17:55.840 --> 1:17:57.280 policy is it kind of works like the New York 1:17:57.320 --> 1:17:59.360 real estate market. It actually is a sort of zero 1:17:59.360 --> 1:18:01.400 s winner lose game, and President Trump actually is quite 1:18:01.400 --> 1:18:04.200 good at those. And I think that on domestic economics, 1:18:04.240 --> 1:18:06.639 the President tends to bring a zero some approach sometimes 1:18:06.640 --> 1:18:09.599 to his economic issues that I don't agree with because 1:18:09.600 --> 1:18:11.439 I think that you can expand the pie for everybody. 1:18:11.560 --> 1:18:13.639 But I don't think the same thing holds true generally 1:18:13.680 --> 1:18:16.599 in foreign policy, where when it comes to geopolitics, there's 1:18:16.600 --> 1:18:19.160 a winner and there's a loser, and it's all about 1:18:19.200 --> 1:18:22.240 relative power and power dynamics, and the President seems to 1:18:22.240 --> 1:18:24.599 get that on a very gut level, which is why 1:18:24.600 --> 1:18:25.760 in the Middle East. I think he did the right 1:18:25.800 --> 1:18:27.559 thing with Gaza. I think he's done the right thing 1:18:27.840 --> 1:18:30.360 with the Iran strike on Photo nuclear facility. I think 1:18:30.360 --> 1:18:32.840 he did the right thing in extraditing Nicholas Maduro. I 1:18:32.840 --> 1:18:34.960 think those are all good things. I think that he 1:18:35.000 --> 1:18:38.160 has found ways to continue the funding of Ukraine via 1:18:38.400 --> 1:18:42.599 this sort of Jerry Rignato NATO buying weapons and funding. 1:18:42.720 --> 1:18:44.400 I think that he has gotten a bunch of countries 1:18:44.439 --> 1:18:46.639 in Europe to increase their defense spending, which is something 1:18:46.640 --> 1:18:48.280 that even Mark Rudy over at NATO has said is 1:18:48.720 --> 1:18:50.800 generally a good thing. I think all of that. 1:18:50.840 --> 1:18:52.679 I don't argue with that. I mean, we can, boy, 1:18:52.720 --> 1:18:55.600 and people are looking for us to unpack that. We 1:18:56.400 --> 1:18:58.680 can spend hours and hours on every single one of 1:18:58.680 --> 1:19:02.360 these specific examples. Let me ask you, and just before 1:19:02.360 --> 1:19:05.480 we get off the foreign policy, I am curious Greenland. 1:19:05.600 --> 1:19:08.439 Come on, I don't I don't understand why we are 1:19:08.439 --> 1:19:10.680 we are attempting to make Greenland our fifty first date. 1:19:11.920 --> 1:19:14.439 It seems to me, we already have defense agreements. 1:19:14.040 --> 1:19:16.519 In well established in nineteen fifty one, we were the 1:19:16.520 --> 1:19:18.600 ones that pulled back. We can re enter and inn 1:19:18.600 --> 1:19:19.200 theah of the week. 1:19:19.360 --> 1:19:22.439 And I think that that Greenland. I think that that, 1:19:22.560 --> 1:19:25.720 you know, despite the desire to rename it trumplin, I 1:19:25.720 --> 1:19:26.840 think that I have ever heard that. 1:19:27.400 --> 1:19:29.760 But it's not trying to deal with the Donni or 1:19:29.800 --> 1:19:30.200 whatever it. 1:19:30.160 --> 1:19:34.000 Is, you know. I think that's I think that's only 1:19:34.520 --> 1:19:38.080 I think that the the you know, attempts to strengthen 1:19:38.200 --> 1:19:40.760 our bases in Greenland would be good thing. But I 1:19:40.800 --> 1:19:41.280 think that's an. 1:19:41.200 --> 1:19:43.479 Interest thing to do tomorrow, which they've already agreed to agree. 1:19:43.520 --> 1:19:46.600 I agree the whole things seems folly, but it not seems. 1:19:46.280 --> 1:19:47.640 It is invading Canada. That's it. 1:19:48.840 --> 1:19:50.760 I want to just because you write about it in 1:19:50.800 --> 1:19:53.599 lines in Scavengers, you talk about this notion of free enterprise, 1:19:53.680 --> 1:19:56.479 You talk about markets. What do you make of of 1:19:56.560 --> 1:20:00.240 Trump's interventionist attitudes, not just overseas, but as really to 1:20:00.560 --> 1:20:05.000 corporations and companies so many disproportionately based out here, including 1:20:05.560 --> 1:20:07.640 MP materials, which. 1:20:07.560 --> 1:20:09.439 Is I don't think the federal government should be taking 1:20:09.479 --> 1:20:12.120 stakes in private companies. I don't believe in what has 1:20:12.160 --> 1:20:14.760 been called the crony capitalism or stake capitalism really is 1:20:14.760 --> 1:20:17.360 just corporatism. I'm not a fan of the idea that 1:20:17.360 --> 1:20:20.519 the government ought to, you know, be involved in command 1:20:20.520 --> 1:20:24.280 and control economics with with regard to private companies. So 1:20:24.560 --> 1:20:27.200 I've opposed that pretty much every step of the way. 1:20:27.360 --> 1:20:29.439 I think it's a mistake. I think that the market 1:20:29.640 --> 1:20:32.200 has a magical ability to make things better and cheaper 1:20:32.280 --> 1:20:35.000 over time if left to its own devices, and that includes. 1:20:34.680 --> 1:20:36.920 By the way, not interfering in the independence of the FED. 1:20:37.200 --> 1:20:41.040 Yes, I'm an Austrian school of economics guy. I think 1:20:41.080 --> 1:20:42.320 that there's a good case to be made that the 1:20:42.360 --> 1:20:44.320 FED really should not have control over inflation rates in 1:20:44.360 --> 1:20:46.160 the first place. I think the target inflation rate should 1:20:46.160 --> 1:20:49.240 be zero, not too and I think that we should 1:20:49.240 --> 1:20:52.400 allow interest rates generally to free float because I think that, 1:20:52.760 --> 1:20:54.720 you know, sometimes one of the great problems with the 1:20:54.720 --> 1:20:57.639 American economy is artificial bubbles that are created by loose 1:20:58.160 --> 1:21:01.280 monetary policy. I think that's what leads to the Great Recession. 1:21:01.439 --> 1:21:03.519 I think it's what also led to the inflationary spiral. 1:21:03.560 --> 1:21:05.040 Andro Joe Biden, what. 1:21:04.960 --> 1:21:08.200 Do you make of Donald Trump, and forgive me, this 1:21:08.320 --> 1:21:11.120 is you know, zigging and zagging around a little bit. 1:21:11.200 --> 1:21:13.680 But I still can't get over the fact that he 1:21:13.800 --> 1:21:16.040 sat down and had dinner with Nick Flins. 1:21:16.360 --> 1:21:19.640 So I think that that was a bad thing to do. Obviously, 1:21:20.120 --> 1:21:22.479 I think that Nick Flinn, says, is a scumbag. I 1:21:22.479 --> 1:21:26.000 think that the president has, you know, an unfortunate tendency 1:21:26.160 --> 1:21:29.240 to make nice with people who want to make nice 1:21:29.360 --> 1:21:31.920 with him. He did come out this week, by the way, 1:21:32.000 --> 1:21:34.000 and you know, in the New York Times said the 1:21:34.040 --> 1:21:36.280 Republican Party wants nothing to do with people like Nick Flints, 1:21:36.320 --> 1:21:39.200 doesn't want to do with anti Semites. I'll continue to 1:21:39.240 --> 1:21:41.360 be critical of Republicans who who flirt with this sort 1:21:41.400 --> 1:21:43.760 of stuff. I whish that the Democratic Party were as 1:21:43.760 --> 1:21:46.559 critical of sitting Congress members who not only flirt with 1:21:46.560 --> 1:21:49.040 this sort of stuff, but overtly traffic in this sort 1:21:49.080 --> 1:21:49.439 of stuff. 1:21:49.439 --> 1:21:49.640 You know. 1:21:49.920 --> 1:21:52.160 I mean, I'll ask you about Zoramum Donnie Ormum Donnie 1:21:52.600 --> 1:21:55.679 literally in the campaign. In the campaign, he was asked 1:21:55.680 --> 1:21:57.639 on Fox News about from Austin. He refused to announce 1:21:57.640 --> 1:21:58.400 it as a terrorist group. 1:21:58.520 --> 1:22:00.519 They are terrorist group and they should have been announced. 1:22:00.560 --> 1:22:02.160 I was there, as you know, a few weeks after 1:22:02.320 --> 1:22:05.080 October seventh, met with BB. Not a big fan of BB. 1:22:05.240 --> 1:22:08.720 This is where we have fundamental disagreements. Quite the contrary in. 1:22:08.640 --> 1:22:11.240 Fact, but it stay in semester politics for a second. Yeah, 1:22:11.360 --> 1:22:13.440 it seems to be have become a sort of Debrigore 1:22:14.160 --> 1:22:18.120 requirement for Democrats who are running for office to now suggest, 1:22:18.200 --> 1:22:20.559 for example, Scott Wiener just did this, he's running for Congress, 1:22:20.640 --> 1:22:23.160 that Israel committed to genocide and Gaza. That is, forget 1:22:23.160 --> 1:22:25.200 about anti simitism and discussions of it, because I think 1:22:25.240 --> 1:22:27.599 that those have become really loose and people don't have 1:22:27.640 --> 1:22:30.000 a consistent definition of anti Simmitism. Let's just talk about 1:22:30.000 --> 1:22:30.400 what's true. 1:22:30.439 --> 1:22:33.240 That's true. I think it's true about the definition. I mean, we, 1:22:33.360 --> 1:22:35.840 as you know, been struggling with that in California as 1:22:35.840 --> 1:22:37.040 it relates to a lot of laws. 1:22:37.040 --> 1:22:41.240 And anti simitism is a fundamentally different cat than, for example, racism. 1:22:41.240 --> 1:22:43.880 It's basically a conspiracy theory about Jewish power in the world. 1:22:43.960 --> 1:22:46.000 But and it makes me sick to my stomach. And 1:22:46.040 --> 1:22:48.599 I say that clearly, but not just of course. I mean, 1:22:48.640 --> 1:22:50.719 we've we've tried to lead in terms of our response, 1:22:51.040 --> 1:22:53.799 and we've called out and called balls and strikes terms of. 1:22:53.640 --> 1:22:56.840 The outrageous without I would you know, in my own 1:22:56.880 --> 1:22:59.479 framework of anti semitism, I think that's saying overtly false 1:22:59.520 --> 1:23:03.960 things about the Jewish state is a form of anti Semitism. 1:23:04.000 --> 1:23:08.080 But I don't think that that is really important as 1:23:08.160 --> 1:23:10.320 much as it is is it true or not? So 1:23:10.640 --> 1:23:14.439 Democrats have now been dragged into this conversation, some drags, 1:23:14.439 --> 1:23:19.000 some run with you know, flags waving into the conversation 1:23:19.080 --> 1:23:19.599 of geneside. 1:23:19.760 --> 1:23:21.160 Yes, I mean, look at. 1:23:21.240 --> 1:23:23.720 Israel did not commit a genocide in Gaza. There is 1:23:23.760 --> 1:23:25.880 no standard by which is Reel committed to genocide in Gaza. 1:23:25.960 --> 1:23:27.200 Just then a factual level. 1:23:27.479 --> 1:23:28.759 A legal and factual level. 1:23:28.960 --> 1:23:30.800 Yes, yeah, what is your opinion of this? 1:23:31.880 --> 1:23:37.840 My opinion is I understand the tendency for people to 1:23:38.000 --> 1:23:42.479 make that, to assert that why on the basis of 1:23:42.760 --> 1:23:49.200 the images and the proportionality genocide? No. No, And by 1:23:49.240 --> 1:23:50.559 the way, I agree with you, and. 1:23:52.960 --> 1:23:55.360 Doesn't mean that if you kill my child and I 1:23:55.400 --> 1:23:57.760 then kill seven criminals, that I've been disproportionate. 1:23:57.840 --> 1:24:01.479 I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think the But 1:24:01.560 --> 1:24:06.120 I understand that tendency on the basis of trying to 1:24:06.240 --> 1:24:10.920 reconcile the proportionate nature of how the war was ultimately. 1:24:10.560 --> 1:24:15.479 Conduct to question, why do you feel the need to 1:24:15.600 --> 1:24:18.160 create a permission structure for that sort of stuff? I mean, 1:24:18.400 --> 1:24:22.320 meaning it's not true? Why not you say it's not true? 1:24:22.400 --> 1:24:24.200 Yeah, Look, I don't know the definition or I don't 1:24:24.200 --> 1:24:26.560 know the legal threshold. That's not my opinion, so I 1:24:26.640 --> 1:24:29.040 don't I don't share that opinion. This relates to genocide, 1:24:29.200 --> 1:24:32.040 not I do not agree with that notion that you. 1:24:31.960 --> 1:24:34.960 Do understand that if you accuse Israel of committing a genocide, 1:24:34.960 --> 1:24:36.840 that now puts Israel in the position of it should 1:24:36.840 --> 1:24:39.000 be a pariah state, because states the commit genocide should 1:24:39.000 --> 1:24:42.920 be pariah states. So granting legitimacy to that position inherent. 1:24:42.800 --> 1:24:47.519 I'm not granted legitimacy. I'm just saying the devastation in 1:24:47.600 --> 1:24:50.639 Gaza at the human level you've got four of course, 1:24:50.680 --> 1:24:52.760 it's terrible, No, but I think it's also important to 1:24:52.840 --> 1:24:55.080 absorb that a little bit more just as it was 1:24:55.520 --> 1:24:58.000 sick and we were clear in our condemnation of these 1:24:58.040 --> 1:25:00.360 people like me, as it relates to what Hamah did 1:25:00.640 --> 1:25:02.519 in that act of barbarism and terrorism. 1:25:02.880 --> 1:25:07.040 That was christroism and wartime collateral damage of wars, and 1:25:07.040 --> 1:25:09.519 if we refused to acknowledge that reality, then we end. 1:25:09.520 --> 1:25:12.680 Up collateral damage. I just I have stronger opinions. It 1:25:12.720 --> 1:25:17.880 wasn't just collateral, you know. I think some of the 1:25:17.920 --> 1:25:19.960 double tapping issues I have. I have a lot of 1:25:20.040 --> 1:25:22.599 issues without Babe ultimately conduct the war, I personally do, 1:25:22.880 --> 1:25:24.200 and I have a lot of issues that are also 1:25:24.240 --> 1:25:26.720 painted on the basis of the conversation I had UH 1:25:27.280 --> 1:25:30.559 a few weeks later after October seventh, the way he 1:25:30.680 --> 1:25:33.240 talked about the Palestinians. I kept talking about a moss. 1:25:33.360 --> 1:25:35.960 He kept talking about the Palestinians. I kept coming back 1:25:36.000 --> 1:25:39.280 to a moss and then ultimately how the war was conducted. Uh. 1:25:39.439 --> 1:25:42.040 Not saying it was a genocide, I'm not, but I 1:25:42.080 --> 1:25:43.599 have issues. What is the thing that he said that 1:25:43.600 --> 1:25:45.880 that you particularly, there was a dehumanization. I didn't like 1:25:45.880 --> 1:25:48.040 the way he talked about the Palestinian people. I just 1:25:48.080 --> 1:25:50.599 didn't What is the specific they can't govern them? I 1:25:50.640 --> 1:25:54.320 didn't specific. I don't want to get into the details. 1:25:54.240 --> 1:25:57.040 Because when it was that he is conflating Hamas and 1:25:57.080 --> 1:26:00.040 the Palestinians he wasn't does lead to the conclusion they were. 1:26:00.040 --> 1:26:02.400 If it wasn't. No, no, no, it was. I'm just 1:26:02.439 --> 1:26:05.519 saying the way he ultimately conducted it. I look back 1:26:05.560 --> 1:26:09.360 at that conversation, I reflect on rather that conversation, it 1:26:09.360 --> 1:26:12.400 doesn't surprise me. And uh and I did not think 1:26:12.439 --> 1:26:15.240 it was proportionate, Okay, and I thought I was overwhelming. 1:26:15.960 --> 1:26:19.800 And the devastation instruction breaks my heart. 1:26:19.800 --> 1:26:22.879 Okay, So your President of the United States, somebody invades 1:26:23.040 --> 1:26:26.439 from Mexico, they take several thousand American citizens, get it, 1:26:26.640 --> 1:26:28.439 and by the way, they hold them all the way 1:26:28.520 --> 1:26:29.960 until the end of the war, until the end of 1:26:29.960 --> 1:26:31.280 the war, their hostages being held. 1:26:31.320 --> 1:26:33.120 Don't get me wrong on any of this. I'm with 1:26:33.240 --> 1:26:36.240 you in terms of the ultimate accountability and bringing the 1:26:36.280 --> 1:26:38.680 hostages home. I like the clarity and conviction as it 1:26:38.720 --> 1:26:41.080 relates to getting all the hostages dead and alive home 1:26:41.640 --> 1:26:43.400 and all of that. I'm not denying that. 1:26:43.439 --> 1:26:45.479 And by the way, still has not been extra paid 1:26:45.600 --> 1:26:46.679 in the areas where we're. 1:26:46.600 --> 1:26:51.599 Is and and there's and and clearly this truce, uh 1:26:51.640 --> 1:26:54.280 and detente is still a work in progress, has been 1:26:54.280 --> 1:26:55.000 a lot of destructions. 1:26:55.439 --> 1:26:59.439 Was supposed to be armed look, there's no crystal clear. 1:27:00.160 --> 1:27:01.960 The point is that they're still clear about it. But 1:27:02.560 --> 1:27:05.799 the point is that I think clear my love. 1:27:05.640 --> 1:27:08.639 For Israel and my condemnation of BB. And there's a distinction. 1:27:08.720 --> 1:27:11.360 I condemned Donald Trump. I love my country. 1:27:10.720 --> 1:27:13.439 And listen, anyone is free to disagree with Prime Minister 1:27:13.560 --> 1:27:15.879 naithania Who any time that they want. I will point out. 1:27:15.680 --> 1:27:18.320 That they're not anti Semitic when they say, of course not. 1:27:18.640 --> 1:27:21.840 And that's also important because some people like that there's 1:27:21.960 --> 1:27:23.559 don't you don't know, but others do. 1:27:24.520 --> 1:27:26.720 I've critique b B myself, mainly for not being right wing 1:27:26.800 --> 1:27:29.160 enough in my opinion on many issues to master actually 1:27:29.560 --> 1:27:31.320 but when it comes to but when when it when 1:27:31.320 --> 1:27:34.120 it comes to the the I mean, we can get 1:27:34.160 --> 1:27:36.880 into perceptions of Ninia, Who's leadership and all this. I 1:27:36.880 --> 1:27:39.840 will say this, I know every major politician in Israel. 1:27:39.880 --> 1:27:42.200 Just I know many of major politicians in Ukraine and 1:27:42.320 --> 1:27:45.599 Hungary and in a wide variety of places in Israel. 1:27:45.640 --> 1:27:48.800 I happen to know the last several prime ministers. If 1:27:49.200 --> 1:27:51.519 anyone outside of the State of Israel believes, then I 1:27:51.680 --> 1:27:55.320 tally Bennett or yeah, you're Lapede's on the left in 1:27:55.400 --> 1:27:58.360 response that is not that's not it's not true. 1:27:58.439 --> 1:27:59.000 No fair point. 1:27:59.040 --> 1:28:00.880 And look, hey, and the and the IDEAF, by the way, 1:28:00.920 --> 1:28:05.120 operates largely independently in some ways of the Prime Minister's office. 1:28:05.120 --> 1:28:06.800 It's kind of a strange duel system that they have 1:28:07.400 --> 1:28:09.120 over there. And I know too many soldiers who I mean, 1:28:09.120 --> 1:28:10.559 I talk about one in the book who had three 1:28:10.640 --> 1:28:13.320 limbs blown off going door to door in Gaza. Not 1:28:13.320 --> 1:28:16.759 not using trom not using overwhelming air power to eviscerate 1:28:16.840 --> 1:28:17.559 millions of people. 1:28:17.800 --> 1:28:21.920 I was in the hospital meeting victims on October seventh 1:28:21.920 --> 1:28:25.559 in Israel. So I look, look, you know and been 1:28:25.600 --> 1:28:27.400 the memorials, and I. 1:28:27.360 --> 1:28:29.000 Want to be clear in the terminology we use about 1:28:29.000 --> 1:28:30.880 all this stuff because right now, for example, but the 1:28:30.960 --> 1:28:33.360 gener the protests, where the protest Where are the members 1:28:33.400 --> 1:28:36.760 of the Democratic Party protesting and wearing pins for the protesters? 1:28:36.800 --> 1:28:39.240 And ron we're getting mowed down maybe by the tens 1:28:39.240 --> 1:28:40.400 of thousands this week. 1:28:40.520 --> 1:28:41.880 I know where I am. I put out a pretty 1:28:41.880 --> 1:28:42.920 clear statement. 1:28:42.600 --> 1:28:44.479 This week and see more Democrats. 1:28:44.640 --> 1:28:46.479 Yeah, I don't disagree with you, By the way, I 1:28:46.520 --> 1:28:48.280 also thought it was I thought it was the right 1:28:48.320 --> 1:28:49.920 thing to do that strike and I thought it was 1:28:50.000 --> 1:28:54.160 unbelievably effective and efficient and had no problems saying that 1:28:54.920 --> 1:28:59.040 during the strike, not didn't wait for the outcomes. So yeah, 1:28:59.040 --> 1:29:01.160 in March to beat a little bit of a different drum, 1:29:01.200 --> 1:29:03.679 a little bit more nuance here. But there is Look, 1:29:03.800 --> 1:29:07.559 it's everything's so black and white. It's just there's nuance here. 1:29:07.640 --> 1:29:09.080 I mean, for sure, But I think that that's point 1:29:09.080 --> 1:29:10.799 that I'm making back to sort of where he originally 1:29:10.840 --> 1:29:13.080 departed here, was that, you know, I'm trying to call 1:29:13.160 --> 1:29:16.760 out what I see as bad behavior, untrue and moral 1:29:16.800 --> 1:29:18.519 behavior on my own side. I'd like to see that 1:29:18.560 --> 1:29:20.920 more from a Democratic party that seemed to be perfectly 1:29:20.920 --> 1:29:23.000 willing to wrap an arm around Armandani the minute he 1:29:23.000 --> 1:29:25.760 got a little bit of momentum, the same man who 1:29:25.760 --> 1:29:28.080 had said that whenever the NYPD boot is on the 1:29:28.120 --> 1:29:31.639 throat of Americans, the IDF is lacing the boot, that's 1:29:31.640 --> 1:29:33.719 sort of nonsense. Is terrible. 1:29:33.800 --> 1:29:36.040 No, I don't associate with those comments at all. I mean, 1:29:36.080 --> 1:29:36.920 and look. 1:29:37.360 --> 1:29:39.360 For me, be in the mayor of New York. 1:29:39.600 --> 1:29:42.360 That's that's for people in New York to make that decision. 1:29:42.400 --> 1:29:44.240 That's not for me. Tom out here in California, and 1:29:44.400 --> 1:29:49.760 thousands of miles away. Well that that directly impacts me, 1:29:49.800 --> 1:29:52.040 I mean New York may indirectly, but I mean it's 1:29:52.280 --> 1:29:53.920 a little bit of different question. We'll see how he 1:29:54.000 --> 1:29:56.680 ultimately does. Thought he ran an incredibly effective campaign. I 1:29:56.680 --> 1:29:58.800 think there's a lot of interesting attributes that he has. 1:29:58.840 --> 1:30:00.759 Incredibly bright, it'll be capable. 1:30:00.800 --> 1:30:03.160 I delivered a lot of terrible people who say brighton 1:30:03.240 --> 1:30:03.759 and capable. 1:30:03.760 --> 1:30:06.160 No, I get it, but and I absolutely disagree with 1:30:06.200 --> 1:30:07.720 them on a lot of those comments. And I was 1:30:07.760 --> 1:30:11.200 also I also maintained that posture pretty consistently over a 1:30:11.200 --> 1:30:13.320 great period a long period of time. And no, I 1:30:13.400 --> 1:30:16.559 was not a Cuomo fan. Uh so just for the record, 1:30:17.040 --> 1:30:21.360 uh and sorry, yeah, And I say this with respect. 1:30:21.400 --> 1:30:23.880 I mean, I you know, the Cuomo family is a 1:30:23.880 --> 1:30:26.960 good democrat. You know his father, and there's some members 1:30:26.960 --> 1:30:29.160 of the family I like a lot. But look, these 1:30:29.200 --> 1:30:31.400 are these are tough issues, and they are tough issues, 1:30:31.439 --> 1:30:34.439 and I look, look, I appreciate your willingness to call 1:30:34.439 --> 1:30:36.960 balls and strikes and a lot of folks, you know, frankly, 1:30:36.960 --> 1:30:39.559 a lot of folks in your world as we sort 1:30:39.600 --> 1:30:43.920 of castigate the right wing media ecosystem, your willingness to 1:30:43.920 --> 1:30:46.000 call this stuff out and this. 1:30:45.960 --> 1:30:47.799 Is the well, you know, I think that in general, 1:30:47.840 --> 1:30:49.680 this is the the way if we want to have 1:30:49.720 --> 1:30:51.479 a way forward in American politics, just to get a 1:30:51.520 --> 1:30:54.479 little generally, yeah, it has to be predicated on certain 1:30:54.520 --> 1:30:57.599 basic premises about truth. And that's why I keep saying, 1:30:57.920 --> 1:31:01.600 forget about you know, categoriesmic is it true or is 1:31:01.640 --> 1:31:04.200 it not true? I think one of the major failings 1:31:04.200 --> 1:31:06.120 of the Democratic Party in the last election cycle is 1:31:06.160 --> 1:31:08.000 the unwillingness to say whether it was true untrue that 1:31:08.000 --> 1:31:10.360 a boy could become a girl. For example. I think 1:31:10.360 --> 1:31:11.760 a lot of people looked at that and they said, 1:31:12.120 --> 1:31:15.240 excuse me, how is this. Forget about the political ramifications 1:31:15.320 --> 1:31:18.280 or the policy ramifications for just a second, can you 1:31:18.360 --> 1:31:19.759 say a boy is not a girl? 1:31:19.920 --> 1:31:24.920 And we can go down And I feel like a 1:31:25.000 --> 1:31:28.920 year ago, as with Charlie having this conversation, which is remarkable, 1:31:30.400 --> 1:31:33.639 I'm cured, did you And this is I'm just honestly 1:31:33.640 --> 1:31:35.680 curious when I'm asking this, I'm not even it's not 1:31:36.160 --> 1:31:39.040 not a loaded question. Did you or others in the 1:31:39.120 --> 1:31:42.800 right condemn the Trump policies as it relates to gender 1:31:42.800 --> 1:31:47.240 affirming care for including a reassignment surgeries in the federal 1:31:47.280 --> 1:31:49.599 prison system under the Trump administration's first term. 1:31:49.680 --> 1:31:50.880 I mean, if I'd been aware of them, would have 1:31:50.880 --> 1:31:52.839 condemned them. My company was the only company in America 1:31:52.880 --> 1:31:55.040 I believe that on a media level refused to use 1:31:55.040 --> 1:31:58.080 preferred pronouns for anyone. We use only biological pronouns since 1:31:58.120 --> 1:31:59.960 twenty fifteen, since we launched the company. 1:32:00.360 --> 1:32:02.240 And I say that because it's just not well known. 1:32:02.280 --> 1:32:06.479 But the Trump Administration's policies allowed for general assignment general 1:32:06.680 --> 1:32:10.080 uh firm and care. I've been a hormone treatment. Actually, 1:32:10.120 --> 1:32:14.360 I think that's change the operations. I mean, yeah, it was, 1:32:14.439 --> 1:32:15.559 it was in federal policies. 1:32:15.600 --> 1:32:17.519 Listen, and I think that's wrong. And then I wish 1:32:17.600 --> 1:32:19.639 that frankly, you you would go further. You've talked about 1:32:19.640 --> 1:32:21.560 the unfairness in sports, But for me, the bigger the 1:32:21.560 --> 1:32:23.559 bigger question is not in fairness in sports. The bigger 1:32:23.600 --> 1:32:26.760 question is whether we should be allowing the administration of 1:32:26.840 --> 1:32:30.440 chemical or surgical mutilation of minors based on generativesphoria. 1:32:30.479 --> 1:32:33.000 Well, we're gonna, I mean, Trump administration has long opinions. 1:32:33.000 --> 1:32:36.000 They've they've sued states like California, many ch other states 1:32:36.040 --> 1:32:39.559 twenty plus states. Yes, And my position is that's between 1:32:39.600 --> 1:32:43.479 the physician, it's between the family member and UH and 1:32:43.479 --> 1:32:45.439 and these these patients themselves. 1:32:45.560 --> 1:32:47.400 Why are there and are there there are there any 1:32:47.439 --> 1:32:50.040 surgical or chemical interventions that you would oppose even if 1:32:50.080 --> 1:32:50.920 the patients. 1:32:51.120 --> 1:32:52.600 Here, We go. I mean, I know exactly where this 1:32:52.640 --> 1:32:53.240 debate goes. 1:32:53.760 --> 1:32:55.280 But I'm asking. I mean, it's it's it's a real, 1:32:55.320 --> 1:32:58.280 it's a real just because it does have public policy implications. 1:32:58.320 --> 1:33:00.400 Meaning in the state of California, there is a judicial ruling. 1:33:00.439 --> 1:33:01.360 We referenced it earlier. 1:33:02.160 --> 1:33:04.400 Well, that's a different That judicial ruling was ridiculous on 1:33:04.439 --> 1:33:07.800 this basis. Any teacher, and what you're talking about is 1:33:07.800 --> 1:33:10.880 a law that I signed as it relates to this, 1:33:10.880 --> 1:33:14.559 this idea that school you can that you can fire teachers, 1:33:14.560 --> 1:33:19.360 that you can fire someone for not telling on a 1:33:19.479 --> 1:33:23.559 child and saying that they're talking about being gay, not 1:33:23.640 --> 1:33:28.240 just trans issues, any LGBTQ issues, that you can be fired. 1:33:28.479 --> 1:33:30.799 There's nothing in the law. The law that I signed 1:33:30.960 --> 1:33:34.800 does not preclude these teachers from telling. 1:33:34.560 --> 1:33:37.400 The parents, school districts from. 1:33:36.840 --> 1:33:40.599 Mandating and firing someone for not but but it allows 1:33:40.640 --> 1:33:42.600 the teacher to make that judgment. On the basis of 1:33:42.800 --> 1:33:45.479 seeing someone that's being bullied and the requirements they have 1:33:45.560 --> 1:33:46.920 under the law to keep people safe. 1:33:46.960 --> 1:33:48.559 As a parent, don't you believe that a teacher should 1:33:48.560 --> 1:33:50.519 facilitate information to you? 1:33:50.920 --> 1:33:53.840 Why would that on every basis? I mean, I mean 1:33:53.840 --> 1:33:55.040 that they should somehow. 1:33:55.400 --> 1:33:59.240 Teacher is going to call you. I meant safety about safety. 1:33:59.280 --> 1:34:01.360 The law is pretty clear and is it about, and 1:34:01.520 --> 1:34:04.639 the teachers have that ability, and the teachers maintain that ability. 1:34:04.760 --> 1:34:06.799 We didn't deny that. We didn't say to the teachers 1:34:06.800 --> 1:34:09.920 you cannot no, quite the contrary. This is critical because 1:34:09.920 --> 1:34:15.600 it's been a lot of misinformation. I mean, the school, 1:34:15.840 --> 1:34:18.839 you should fire someone and in many cases, look, anyone 1:34:18.880 --> 1:34:22.360 that's members of the LGBTQ community. How many stories, uh 1:34:22.560 --> 1:34:24.720 that you've heard of people that say, I went to 1:34:24.800 --> 1:34:27.360 my parents with my teacher that was a safe place 1:34:27.360 --> 1:34:29.000 for me in school. There's a lot of grace in 1:34:29.040 --> 1:34:31.000 this space. There's a lot of testimony in this space 1:34:31.280 --> 1:34:32.880 that I think should just provide a little bit of 1:34:32.880 --> 1:34:35.439 grace and humility. It's not a black and white issue. 1:34:35.560 --> 1:34:39.080 Teachers can still quote unquote turn in a child. They 1:34:39.120 --> 1:34:39.880 just can't be fired. 1:34:39.920 --> 1:34:43.200 I mean, but my question on that and again this 1:34:43.280 --> 1:34:46.559 is a subset of a broader issue is why does 1:34:46.560 --> 1:34:52.519 the parent not have an absolute moral ability to receive 1:34:52.560 --> 1:34:55.400 that information and require is there not a requirement there 1:34:55.400 --> 1:34:58.120 should be a requirement for teachers to turn over that information. 1:34:57.840 --> 1:34:58.639 Health and safety. 1:34:58.960 --> 1:35:02.640 Health and safety are if a teacher truly believes that 1:35:02.680 --> 1:35:04.040 a parent is a threat to a child, they can 1:35:04.080 --> 1:35:05.040 report it to child services. 1:35:05.120 --> 1:35:07.320 Yeah, so health and safety is still the standard, so 1:35:07.439 --> 1:35:09.680 that you maintain that standard. That standard is the law. 1:35:09.720 --> 1:35:11.320 It's a lot of wiggle room for a teacher to apply. 1:35:11.400 --> 1:35:13.160 Well, it's also but it's a lot of law in 1:35:13.280 --> 1:35:15.440 terms of the way of that law and that responsibility 1:35:15.439 --> 1:35:17.479 to take care of it, make sure your kids are safe. 1:35:17.520 --> 1:35:20.919 But this idea that people are going to public schools 1:35:21.120 --> 1:35:24.160 and coming back having surgeries and coming back the next 1:35:24.280 --> 1:35:25.519 day is absurd. 1:35:25.760 --> 1:35:28.040 But there are certainly cases in which in which kids 1:35:28.040 --> 1:35:30.360 are being quote unquote socially transitioned to school without parents 1:35:30.439 --> 1:35:31.600 knowing about it. I know some of the parents to 1:35:31.600 --> 1:35:35.040 whom this has happened. I mean, this is the fundamental 1:35:35.080 --> 1:35:36.479 question that lies at the root of all of this 1:35:36.520 --> 1:35:39.400 is the question that you're not wanting to answer, which 1:35:39.400 --> 1:35:41.960 is whether boys can become girls. 1:35:42.080 --> 1:35:44.679 Yeah, I just don't. Well, I think for the grace 1:35:44.720 --> 1:35:46.120 of God, yeah. 1:35:46.000 --> 1:35:48.080 I mean, I appreciate the sympathy. I always I also 1:35:48.120 --> 1:35:51.000 feel terrible for is it anybody who's suffering with any sort. 1:35:50.920 --> 1:35:54.200 Of I mean, I think it's the case generations for 1:35:54.360 --> 1:35:57.400 the time and memorial you know, God bless I just 1:35:58.080 --> 1:35:58.479 I don't know. 1:35:58.520 --> 1:36:00.160 That's hard one. I just don't understand because. 1:35:59.920 --> 1:36:03.759 I don't know why. Why is it such a I'm curious. 1:36:03.920 --> 1:36:07.880 I understand the political potency of its politically, but it's 1:36:07.880 --> 1:36:11.320 just how it's so few. We're talking about so few people. 1:36:11.400 --> 1:36:14.439 It's not about that that are that are struggling with 1:36:14.439 --> 1:36:17.840 with with with with gender ident issues. A lot of 1:36:17.920 --> 1:36:21.040 remarkable people, a lot of wildly successful people, and they've 1:36:21.040 --> 1:36:23.600 gone in their life, have credible lives. I just I 1:36:23.640 --> 1:36:27.280 don't know. There's so much hate and bigotry, so much condemnation. 1:36:27.800 --> 1:36:30.200 Much This is the part where I start to object. Okay, 1:36:30.240 --> 1:36:31.000 the idea that you. 1:36:31.000 --> 1:36:33.559 May not be spealing it no like some others. Trust 1:36:34.439 --> 1:36:35.280 this is the business. 1:36:35.280 --> 1:36:37.400 There there are lots of terrible people who say lots 1:36:37.400 --> 1:36:39.439 of terrible things. But yes, it is not an act 1:36:39.479 --> 1:36:41.360 of bigotry to say that a boy cannot become a girl, 1:36:41.479 --> 1:36:43.559 nor should my children be taught in K through twelve 1:36:43.560 --> 1:36:45.519 public schools that a boy can become a girl. That 1:36:45.600 --> 1:36:47.040 is not an act of bigotry. That's an act of 1:36:47.160 --> 1:36:49.080 rationality and biological simplicity. 1:36:49.160 --> 1:36:52.240 I respect your point of view, and you know, but people, 1:36:53.360 --> 1:36:56.280 good people disagree on this, and a lot of states, 1:36:56.320 --> 1:36:59.200 not just California, well established rules, by the way, that 1:36:59.320 --> 1:37:02.840 predate me. Again, this is not where I started campaigning 1:37:02.880 --> 1:37:07.639 and advocating on these issues, as some suggest. And uh 1:37:07.680 --> 1:37:11.800 and look, I'm with the governor, Governor Spencer Cox, who 1:37:12.040 --> 1:37:14.679 said about many of these issues, never so much attention 1:37:14.760 --> 1:37:15.960 been placed on so few people. 1:37:16.120 --> 1:37:17.920 And the problem is, I do think that on the 1:37:17.920 --> 1:37:20.040 electoral level, to go to the politics, it is a 1:37:20.040 --> 1:37:21.320 barrier to entry for a lot of people. 1:37:21.600 --> 1:37:22.200 I agree with that. 1:37:22.520 --> 1:37:24.240 I agree with, boy, you can become a girl. And 1:37:24.240 --> 1:37:26.200 then just I do agree and realistic and. 1:37:26.280 --> 1:37:28.360 By the way, and I respect if that's your barrier 1:37:28.439 --> 1:37:31.719 to then listening to people on myriad of other issues, Uh, 1:37:32.120 --> 1:37:32.559 so be it. 1:37:32.640 --> 1:37:33.920 It is what it is. I just find it. I 1:37:33.960 --> 1:37:36.400 find it strange that even if you wish to have 1:37:36.479 --> 1:37:39.200 a public policy that pursues something different. We cannot just 1:37:39.280 --> 1:37:41.360 admit that boys and girls are two different things and 1:37:41.360 --> 1:37:44.000 that a boy cannot become a girl. Why is this 1:37:44.040 --> 1:37:44.599 so difficult? 1:37:44.960 --> 1:37:48.640 Yeah, I understand your point of view, and you know, 1:37:48.680 --> 1:37:51.840 and I also respect Caitlyn Jenner, you know I do and. 1:37:51.920 --> 1:37:53.760 Not respect for individuals. No, I can tell you a story. 1:37:53.760 --> 1:37:56.320 This is there's the way I speaking at university. 1:37:56.439 --> 1:37:58.439 This is a harder thing for me too, as you 1:37:58.520 --> 1:38:00.880 may know, I probably do. That's God's son, and it 1:38:01.000 --> 1:38:03.240 just it's, uh, there's a little more. I just I 1:38:03.280 --> 1:38:05.680 find the humanity. I find different aspects of this a 1:38:05.720 --> 1:38:07.599 different layers. This goes back to my sort of truth, 1:38:07.840 --> 1:38:08.960 trying to know your facts. 1:38:09.800 --> 1:38:11.600 I mean, here's the story. So I was, I was 1:38:11.640 --> 1:38:13.519 speaking at the University of British Columbia. This must have 1:38:13.560 --> 1:38:16.200 been now five years ago or so, and a person 1:38:16.240 --> 1:38:18.760 who identified as Trands got up at the microphone. And 1:38:19.040 --> 1:38:20.679 obviously I do a lot of these things on campus. 1:38:20.720 --> 1:38:22.760 I used to do more of them and this this 1:38:22.840 --> 1:38:26.080 issue came up. But the person started talking about his 1:38:26.200 --> 1:38:29.400 family's biological mail. Again, you can use whatever pronouns you 1:38:29.439 --> 1:38:32.160 shoes use a free country, but you can't force me 1:38:32.200 --> 1:38:34.880 to use pronouns that I believe are grammatically incorrect. 1:38:35.040 --> 1:38:37.519 By the way, I'm not sitting here, you know, trying to. 1:38:41.320 --> 1:38:44.640 Anyway. So this so this, this person gets up and 1:38:44.880 --> 1:38:47.120 starts talking about his family and how they how they 1:38:47.120 --> 1:38:48.879 treat him, and I said, you know, i'd really appreciate 1:38:48.960 --> 1:38:50.680 if we're going to have a conversation on sort of 1:38:50.680 --> 1:38:53.560 a general and philosophical level about this issue, if you 1:38:53.600 --> 1:38:55.160 didn't invoke your family, because I don't want to be 1:38:55.160 --> 1:38:57.599 in a position of having to talk to you about 1:38:57.600 --> 1:39:00.200 what your family thinks or believes. And the person and 1:39:00.680 --> 1:39:02.800 continue to invoke their family said, well, you know, my 1:39:02.840 --> 1:39:05.080 family keeps saying that I am a woman, that I'm 1:39:05.080 --> 1:39:08.080 a woman. And finally, after about seven eight minutes of this, 1:39:08.280 --> 1:39:10.519 I said, listen, you've now forced me to the corner 1:39:10.520 --> 1:39:11.960 where I have to give my opinion. My opinion is 1:39:11.960 --> 1:39:13.600 that your family is treating you with sympathy, but they 1:39:13.640 --> 1:39:15.559 don't actually believe that you're a woman because they care 1:39:15.600 --> 1:39:17.360 about you and they love you, but they will fib 1:39:17.360 --> 1:39:19.720 to you because they believe that it is better for 1:39:19.840 --> 1:39:22.880 you or or that you will not hurt yourself if 1:39:22.920 --> 1:39:24.880 you say this thing that is that is not true 1:39:25.000 --> 1:39:27.000 the person, I'm very upset, rushed out of the room. Now, 1:39:27.080 --> 1:39:29.360 normally that's the kind of thing that ends up online 1:39:29.439 --> 1:39:31.640 as a you know, destroys video kind of thing. I 1:39:31.680 --> 1:39:33.400 went to the people who are in charge of the event. 1:39:33.439 --> 1:39:35.160 I had them cut it from the tape because I 1:39:35.200 --> 1:39:37.400 was worried about the person's mental health status. I appreciate. 1:39:37.479 --> 1:39:39.639 I called up a person who I knew, who knew 1:39:39.640 --> 1:39:42.160 the person because they'd mentioned it to me, and I 1:39:42.200 --> 1:39:44.280 actually had breakfast with the person the next morning to 1:39:44.280 --> 1:39:46.800 make sure that he was okay, good, free. So my 1:39:46.840 --> 1:39:48.720 only part way is not what a wonderful person I am. 1:39:48.720 --> 1:39:50.920 It's that sympathy does not preclude truth telling. And when 1:39:50.920 --> 1:39:53.879 you're making public policy, it is very important that sympathy 1:39:53.920 --> 1:39:57.080 not preclude truth telling. And I think that again, it's 1:39:57.080 --> 1:39:58.360 not just the trans issue. 1:39:58.520 --> 1:39:58.680 You know. 1:39:58.760 --> 1:40:00.840 If the idea is that I have to protect my 1:40:00.920 --> 1:40:03.200 friends and I have to attack my enemies and politics, 1:40:03.280 --> 1:40:07.280 things get really squirrellly, really quickly, because again, public policy 1:40:07.320 --> 1:40:09.120 is for everyone. It is not just for subgroups. 1:40:10.080 --> 1:40:13.240 Ah, I hear you. We just see the world with 1:40:13.280 --> 1:40:15.519 a different set of eyes on this. I appreciate you 1:40:15.800 --> 1:40:17.960 of intellectual argument and the sort of soundness and the 1:40:18.000 --> 1:40:21.720 firmness in that space. I can't help but unpack the 1:40:22.640 --> 1:40:26.439 relationship to families and people and lives lived and and 1:40:26.439 --> 1:40:29.439 and the grace and you know, people's lives that are 1:40:29.439 --> 1:40:32.360 lost and and people that are struggling and going through this. 1:40:32.439 --> 1:40:35.920 I I just, uh, that's that's that's how and and 1:40:35.960 --> 1:40:39.719 to me, that does shape the way I make policy 1:40:40.200 --> 1:40:43.599 because it is it's it's it's it's not just science, 1:40:43.640 --> 1:40:47.760 it's art. It's it's lived experience. It's reality. And it 1:40:47.800 --> 1:40:52.040 goes back to sanctuary. Think there's certain lived realities and uh, 1:40:52.120 --> 1:40:54.040 and and one has to sort of deal with the 1:40:54.080 --> 1:40:56.320 cards that are dealt as imperfect as things are and 1:40:56.400 --> 1:40:56.880 life is. 1:40:56.920 --> 1:40:59.240 And as you know, you know, but you're you're you're. 1:40:59.200 --> 1:41:01.240 One of these. That's why you got one hundred and 1:41:01.240 --> 1:41:02.400 eighty IQ. What was it? 1:41:02.760 --> 1:41:03.000 I do. 1:41:05.479 --> 1:41:07.519 Jesus? And you can read your book to learn more. 1:41:07.600 --> 1:41:10.360 By the way, when I was listening to reading Lines 1:41:10.360 --> 1:41:17.719 and Scavengers, this notion of victimization and envy, the scavenger mindset, 1:41:18.160 --> 1:41:19.960 I thought you were writing about Donald Trump. 1:41:20.439 --> 1:41:22.360 Well, I mean when I was on with azro As, 1:41:22.479 --> 1:41:24.200 I said, it feels like you're talking about a lot 1:41:24.200 --> 1:41:26.200 of people on both sides, And I said, that is true. 1:41:26.760 --> 1:41:29.040 I am talking about a lot of people on both sides. 1:41:29.360 --> 1:41:30.880 I think that, you know, one of the points I 1:41:30.920 --> 1:41:34.040 make in the book, you know, is that the model 1:41:34.080 --> 1:41:36.040 of lines and scavengers, it's really about kind of peopleho 1:41:36.040 --> 1:41:39.320 build versus people who wish to destroy. And the point 1:41:39.320 --> 1:41:41.160 that I make is that's actually an internal battle inside 1:41:41.160 --> 1:41:43.200 of all of us. If you go back to the 1:41:43.400 --> 1:41:46.160 Book of Genesis and the story of Cain and Nabel, 1:41:47.600 --> 1:41:50.000 it's a fascinating story, obviously for a variety of reasons, 1:41:50.000 --> 1:41:52.240 which is why it's lasted for several thousand years. But 1:41:52.760 --> 1:41:55.360 what happens is that that Caine actually initiates the idea 1:41:55.439 --> 1:41:57.920 of let's let's give sacrifices to God. And then God 1:41:57.960 --> 1:42:00.360 takes able to sacrifice, but not Cain's and say in 1:42:00.360 --> 1:42:02.920 the Bible, why that is? That's just what happens. And 1:42:03.080 --> 1:42:06.439 King gets angry and God actually goes to Candy. He says, listen, 1:42:06.720 --> 1:42:11.120 you have the ability to fix yourself right, send crouches 1:42:11.160 --> 1:42:13.200 at your door. But in the word in Hebrew is 1:42:13.280 --> 1:42:15.360 tim shall you can overcome that. You have the capacity 1:42:15.439 --> 1:42:18.040 to overcome that, And so in every human heart is 1:42:18.080 --> 1:42:20.880 the capacity to be the person who builds, makes things 1:42:20.880 --> 1:42:23.360 strong or makes makes you know, if you're a politician, 1:42:23.439 --> 1:42:25.760 better policy makes the country stronger in terms of its 1:42:25.760 --> 1:42:29.200 social fabric. Or the person who's going to grift, or 1:42:29.240 --> 1:42:31.680 the person who's going to engage in conspiracy theories, or 1:42:31.720 --> 1:42:33.439 the person who's going to tear things down because they're 1:42:33.520 --> 1:42:36.600 unhappy with their life and therefore of decided false lee 1:42:36.720 --> 1:42:38.800 with no evidence that the system is to blame for 1:42:39.120 --> 1:42:41.679 all that. I see politicians who do both of those things. 1:42:41.880 --> 1:42:43.759 I think that that sometimes I look at what President 1:42:43.760 --> 1:42:45.360 Trump says and I think, you know, that's a real 1:42:45.400 --> 1:42:46.960 lion thing to do. I think that that's sending the 1:42:47.640 --> 1:42:49.280 sending the b twos to Florid, Oh was a lion 1:42:49.320 --> 1:42:51.880 thing to do. I think that that grabbing Maduro is 1:42:51.920 --> 1:42:53.880 a lion thing. And then sometimes he says things and 1:42:53.880 --> 1:42:55.760 I'm like, that is a scavenger thing to do. So, 1:42:55.960 --> 1:42:58.160 you know, this week, for example, you know, he's he's 1:42:58.200 --> 1:43:00.600 doing some populous things on economics thatrobably some members of 1:43:00.600 --> 1:43:03.240 the left woul would agree with that credit card. I 1:43:03.280 --> 1:43:04.760 think that that's silly. I think that that is that 1:43:04.880 --> 1:43:09.960 is again it's externalizing people's debt problem to a place 1:43:10.439 --> 1:43:12.400 that does not solve the problem, and in fact, is 1:43:12.520 --> 1:43:14.200 more likely to lead to people not being able to 1:43:14.240 --> 1:43:16.479 get credit cards. Because obviously, if you. 1:43:16.720 --> 1:43:19.439 Sound like the head of JP Morgan, what about rolling 1:43:19.520 --> 1:43:23.640 up all the corporate purchases of private single family owns. 1:43:23.800 --> 1:43:25.479 I think that that's I think that that is a 1:43:25.720 --> 1:43:28.559 ridiculous misdirect. Okay, that the fact is that in the 1:43:28.560 --> 1:43:32.560 state of California, for example, exorbitantly low percentage. 1:43:31.880 --> 1:43:32.920 Relative to other states. 1:43:32.960 --> 1:43:34.559 Yeah relative does this for sure? 1:43:34.640 --> 1:43:34.840 Yeah? 1:43:34.840 --> 1:43:37.639 Okay, And guess what real estate here really really expensive. 1:43:37.800 --> 1:43:39.839 And meanwhile, if you go over to Charlotte, North Carolina, 1:43:39.880 --> 1:43:42.080 where the real estate prices actually have been diving, you 1:43:42.120 --> 1:43:45.000 actually do have pretty significant corporate ownership. And you were 1:43:45.000 --> 1:43:47.280 talking about large corporations, not like small mom and pop 1:43:47.280 --> 1:43:49.120 operations where you own a second home to rent it out. 1:43:49.439 --> 1:43:52.439 Typically speaking, when a corporation invests in an area like 1:43:52.439 --> 1:43:55.040 say Phoenix, and then builds up an enormous number of 1:43:55.240 --> 1:43:57.800 rental units, because that's what happens. They buy let's say 1:43:57.800 --> 1:43:59.519 a single family home, now they rent it out. Okay, 1:43:59.560 --> 1:44:02.599 so they just increased the stock of rent right, which 1:44:02.640 --> 1:44:05.440 means that the rental prices go down, and then corporations 1:44:05.439 --> 1:44:08.080 typically are investing in areas where it's easier to buy 1:44:08.200 --> 1:44:11.200 and easier to renovate and easier to build. Like renovating 1:44:11.240 --> 1:44:12.920 is very difficult in places like New York and in 1:44:12.920 --> 1:44:15.280 certain parts of California, it's a lot easier in say 1:44:15.280 --> 1:44:17.800 Austin or Phoenix or Florida. And so what you've seen 1:44:17.920 --> 1:44:20.839 is actually there is not only zero correlation between corporate 1:44:20.880 --> 1:44:25.799 ownership of real estate assets and price of rent. For example, 1:44:26.000 --> 1:44:28.599 in many cases, there's a reverse correlation. And so trying 1:44:28.640 --> 1:44:32.200 to refocus on look at this terrible it is in 1:44:32.280 --> 1:44:34.640 black Rock. Blackrack does an own real estate assets in 1:44:34.640 --> 1:44:37.680 this fashion. But if you're doing at Blackstone and then 1:44:38.200 --> 1:44:41.679 it's Blackstone's fault that the real estate prices are going up, No, 1:44:41.880 --> 1:44:45.320 it isn't. And again I think that that's. 1:44:45.160 --> 1:44:48.080 Why is he pursuing two policies that you vehemently disagree with, 1:44:48.120 --> 1:44:49.880 because I think that it is failing on the issue 1:44:49.880 --> 1:44:50.439 of the economy. 1:44:50.439 --> 1:44:52.360 With the Americ governor, I think that that it is 1:44:52.360 --> 1:44:56.200 politically beneficial for politicians to tell people that their problems 1:44:56.240 --> 1:44:58.400 are easily solvable with the stroke of a pen and 1:44:58.479 --> 1:45:00.360 by blaming somebody who's richer than they are. I think 1:45:00.360 --> 1:45:02.840 that is a very easy way to get away with 1:45:03.120 --> 1:45:04.320 really bad public policy. 1:45:04.360 --> 1:45:06.240 All right, let's talk about it when we're a limited 1:45:06.280 --> 1:45:09.800 time here. Then, my gosh, we've covered. 1:45:09.439 --> 1:45:11.120 So much and I know everyone's it's been fine. 1:45:11.120 --> 1:45:15.160 Wait, haven't we gotten into politics and Nigeria? We can 1:45:15.200 --> 1:45:18.519 talk about Somali land and we can get into some 1:45:18.560 --> 1:45:21.200 more interesting, nuanced issues and you know, we didn't even 1:45:21.240 --> 1:45:24.280 get to Shi And there's there's a legitimately a lot 1:45:24.320 --> 1:45:26.559 of issues that I think are fascinating that we'll define 1:45:26.560 --> 1:45:28.400 more things in more ways on more days. But what 1:45:28.400 --> 1:45:31.200 do you make of I mean, uh, Republicans have no 1:45:31.280 --> 1:45:32.839 chance in this midterm right. 1:45:33.280 --> 1:45:34.760 I think that they are in for a world of 1:45:34.840 --> 1:45:37.280 hurt right now in the midterms. I mean, they're the 1:45:37.280 --> 1:45:41.439 they're the incumbent party. They have a bare majority. Uh, 1:45:41.840 --> 1:45:44.519 that alone would put them behind the eight ball. There 1:45:44.520 --> 1:45:46.240 are not a lot of swing districts that are that 1:45:46.240 --> 1:45:48.200 are kind of left because of all the redistricting, But 1:45:48.439 --> 1:45:50.320 the swing districts that that are left seemed to be 1:45:50.320 --> 1:45:52.560 trending more blue. President Trump isn't on the ballots. He 1:45:52.600 --> 1:45:57.080 doesn't really have coattails among the low propensity electorate. So yeah, 1:45:57.120 --> 1:45:59.160 I think that Republicans are gonna are gonna have a 1:45:59.240 --> 1:45:59.799 rough ride. 1:46:00.120 --> 1:46:02.599 Scale one to ten. How big a mistake was not 1:46:02.720 --> 1:46:05.080 expanding the healthcare subsidies or extending them. 1:46:05.200 --> 1:46:07.000 So I have made the case that on just a 1:46:07.120 --> 1:46:09.640 raw political level, and again I will say that what 1:46:09.680 --> 1:46:11.280 I do is different than what you do, right, I mean, like, 1:46:11.280 --> 1:46:13.200 you're in the podcast space now, so this is my ballgame, 1:46:13.240 --> 1:46:15.920 But the reality is that you're in the policy making space. 1:46:15.920 --> 1:46:18.080 And I've said this to Republican and Democratic politicans. 1:46:18.080 --> 1:46:20.160 That's why I have to bring the human element into this, 1:46:20.880 --> 1:46:21.719 the human elements. 1:46:21.720 --> 1:46:23.080 See, this is where I would say, you never removed 1:46:23.080 --> 1:46:25.960 the human element, governor, But you know the I would 1:46:26.000 --> 1:46:29.080 say that the one of the things that I hope 1:46:29.080 --> 1:46:31.799 that people appreciate about the difference is that in podcast 1:46:31.840 --> 1:46:33.719 space you can be a purist, and in the political space, 1:46:33.760 --> 1:46:35.240 you get you try to get seventy percent of the 1:46:35.240 --> 1:46:39.160 buy and so when you are looking at, for example, 1:46:39.200 --> 1:46:42.400 extending the Obamacare subsidies, it is a political loser obviously 1:46:42.400 --> 1:46:44.600 for Republicans, and not to extend the Obamacare subsidies and 1:46:44.600 --> 1:46:47.120 to let it hit a cliff. Clearly, then the question becomes, 1:46:47.120 --> 1:46:50.320 what can you do that shortens the duration? If you're 1:46:50.400 --> 1:46:52.920 a conservative, if you're a Republican, what can you do 1:46:53.120 --> 1:46:56.599 that that creates a soft a softer landing for people 1:46:56.640 --> 1:46:58.720 who are reliant on those subsidies in a transition to 1:46:58.760 --> 1:47:01.400 policies that you believe will in general bend the cost 1:47:01.439 --> 1:47:03.760 curved down in the meantime, because if you have kind 1:47:03.760 --> 1:47:06.200 of a hard stop, then that's going to affect a 1:47:06.240 --> 1:47:08.320 lot of people. There's a reason why Purple state Republicans, 1:47:08.360 --> 1:47:11.519 Purple district Republicans are trying to cut deals right now 1:47:11.600 --> 1:47:14.519 with Democrats in order to extend those healthcare subsidies. Hopefully 1:47:14.760 --> 1:47:17.400 in return they will get some provisions on fraud, maybe 1:47:17.439 --> 1:47:21.240 some release of certain regulations around Obamacare. I think the 1:47:21.240 --> 1:47:24.439 healthcare system is so complex, it's so mixed. You know. 1:47:25.760 --> 1:47:27.360 Let's put this way. If you and I were sitting 1:47:27.360 --> 1:47:30.760 and designing a healthcare system there was none, then I 1:47:30.800 --> 1:47:33.280 think that we might have very differing ideas of where 1:47:33.280 --> 1:47:36.720 it goes. But trying to extricate ourselves from what is 1:47:36.760 --> 1:47:39.880 an incredibly difficult situation, I think that the easiest and 1:47:39.920 --> 1:47:41.800 dumbest way to do policy is to just keep tossing 1:47:41.800 --> 1:47:43.800 money at it. But I also think that on a 1:47:43.800 --> 1:47:47.200 political level, if you never have the power to do 1:47:47.320 --> 1:47:49.400 better things, then you never have the power to do 1:47:49.479 --> 1:47:50.680 the better things. You got to get as much of 1:47:50.680 --> 1:47:52.680 the pie as you can. And that's the nature of pragmatism. 1:47:52.760 --> 1:47:54.439 As you are constantly talking about. 1:47:54.280 --> 1:47:58.160 Well said, well, I agree, rather as sentiment, it's interesting. 1:47:58.840 --> 1:48:00.920 On the issue of subsidy, it's an important point. I mean, 1:48:00.920 --> 1:48:02.559 we'd have to lower the cost out care. It's why 1:48:02.920 --> 1:48:06.400 very proud of California we created our own insulin branded 1:48:06.439 --> 1:48:08.960 drug under cal r X. We're just lowering costs, not 1:48:09.000 --> 1:48:13.280 subsidizing costs, which means socializing that cost on the rest 1:48:13.560 --> 1:48:17.400 of the rate payers more broadly, or premium payers. But 1:48:17.479 --> 1:48:23.400 on the issue of Vance and Rubio Vance or Rubio Ben, 1:48:23.600 --> 1:48:25.800 I mean in terms of whom twenty eight was, I mean, 1:48:26.240 --> 1:48:27.599 so I think that look, JD. 1:48:27.720 --> 1:48:30.280 Vance has already you know, sort of been deemed by 1:48:30.800 --> 1:48:34.240 Marco Rubios as the presumptive nominee barring some sort of 1:48:34.320 --> 1:48:36.599 cataclysmic circumstance. In terms of who I tend to agree 1:48:36.600 --> 1:48:38.839 with more politically, obviously, I would think that the Secretary 1:48:38.840 --> 1:48:41.400 of State Rubio on foreign policy, I tend to be 1:48:41.400 --> 1:48:44.439 more aligned with. Yeah, I think that that the Vice 1:48:44.439 --> 1:48:46.679 President obviously a very high IQ guy. There are certain 1:48:46.720 --> 1:48:48.519 areas of policy I agree with him on. There are 1:48:48.520 --> 1:48:51.280 certain areas of policy I strenuously disagree with the Vice 1:48:51.320 --> 1:48:52.960 president right now, if you have to lay odds, then 1:48:53.320 --> 1:48:56.599 then JD is the most likely nominee. Things can change. Obviously, 1:48:56.600 --> 1:48:57.200 it's very early. 1:48:57.320 --> 1:49:01.599 Who leaves first, Hexit or Pam Bondi. 1:49:02.920 --> 1:49:05.360 You know again, Yeah, in terms of this is where 1:49:05.400 --> 1:49:06.880 you get in this sort of the personality side of 1:49:06.880 --> 1:49:09.360 the business that I care less about. But I think 1:49:09.360 --> 1:49:11.320 that is significantly more likely the Pam Bondi is out 1:49:11.320 --> 1:49:12.920 before the Secretary of Defense. 1:49:13.520 --> 1:49:16.799 Interesting. Thanks for coming all the way out. 1:49:16.720 --> 1:49:18.479 Hey, thank you, Thanks for having me. I appreciate it's 1:49:18.520 --> 1:49:18.840 been fun. 1:49:19.160 --> 1:49:23.320 Ben Shapiro, You're always welcome back home.