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Speaker 1: Either to go pull the principle or you don't pull

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Speaker 1: the principle. If you don't unap hold the principle, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna call you out for not upholding the principle. On

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Speaker 1: his epitaph, we'll read forty fifth and forty seven President

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Speaker 1: of the United States, he said, a lot of shit.

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Speaker 2: Thank story, jurisdictions have lower crime rates. You moved to

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Speaker 2: a state that has higher insurance, right, higher car insurance,

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Speaker 2: not just home insurance, has higher property taxes many of

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Speaker 2: these red states.

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Speaker 1: And I think that we should start from a position

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Speaker 1: in the United States of gratitude and recognition that we

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Speaker 1: live in a free country where the vast majority of

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Speaker 1: decisions are your own. This is Gavin Newsom, and this

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Speaker 1: has been Shapiro. All right, Ben Shapiro, welcome, Hey, thanks

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Speaker 1: for having me.

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Speaker 2: I love it all the way from Florida. We'll get

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Speaker 2: to that, you know, moment.

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Speaker 1: Seem a little bit spicy about it, Yeah, a little

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Speaker 1: sot well, you know.

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Speaker 2: Texas, that would have been more spicy. But you know,

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Speaker 2: especially come on, you're a Hollywood kid, at least Hollywood adjacent.

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Speaker 1: You'reeah Burbank, born and bred and born in Saint Joe's

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Speaker 1: in Burbank.

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Speaker 2: I love that. And well, year nineteen eighty four and

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Speaker 2: you went, you know you, And it's interesting because you were,

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Speaker 2: you know, in sort of middle class family, grew up

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Speaker 2: and I, you know, got a new book we're going

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Speaker 2: to get to in a moment, Lions and Scavengers. But

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Speaker 2: in that you talk about your your home where I

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Speaker 2: think six members of your family living in a two

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Speaker 2: bedroom home, one bathroom Burbank, California, and you describe it,

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Speaker 2: at least briefly as pretty Bucolic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was great. It was great. I mean, Burbank

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Speaker 1: was a great place to grow up. It was like

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Speaker 1: kids playing in the street. And I had the greatest

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Speaker 1: privilege of all. Right, I'm an American growing up in

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Speaker 1: the greatest country and the history of the world. And

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Speaker 1: I've got a two parent household. My parents love each

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Speaker 1: other and they take care of us, and they're able

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Speaker 1: to make a middle class income. My mom started off

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Speaker 1: as a secretary and worked her way up to become

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Speaker 1: vice president of a small film and TV company. My

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Speaker 1: dad came out here to be a composer, and he

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Speaker 1: ended up playing piano at a restaurant on venturable of

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Speaker 1: var I believe it was in or actually it was

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Speaker 1: it was in across from Universal Studios. It was the

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Speaker 1: Mitchell's over there.

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Speaker 2: Like a five night a week piano guy.

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Speaker 1: A couple of nights a week, you go in there

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Speaker 1: and play jazz piano because since he was fourteen and

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Speaker 1: so that's that's how I grew up. And you know again,

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Speaker 1: I think that that's the American dreams. You start there

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Speaker 1: and then you end up making a better life for

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Speaker 1: your kids, and they end up making a better life

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Speaker 1: for themselves, and that upper trajectory is is kind of

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Speaker 1: what America is all about.

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Speaker 2: I love it. How many brothers and sisters?

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Speaker 1: So I have three younger sisters, three younger sisters, three

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Speaker 1: younger sisters.

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Speaker 2: Were they music because you were? You were a violinist, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I started playing violin when I was five, and then

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Speaker 1: I was pretty good. I mean I was it.

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Speaker 2: You were. It was your dad just saying you're going, son,

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Speaker 2: you will be. I mean they threw that at you

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Speaker 2: and they made you and your crying.

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Speaker 1: No, it definitely wasn't there.

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Speaker 2: You loved No.

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Speaker 1: I I was pretty dedicated to it, for sure. I

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Speaker 1: was practicing by the time I was sixteen. Maybe three

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Speaker 1: hours a day or something. And then I looked at

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Speaker 1: at sort of the life of musician, and I thought, well,

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Speaker 1: again that upper trajectory is very difficult, particularly in classical music,

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Speaker 1: and I thought, you know, maybe I better shift career

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Speaker 1: strategies here. But when I went to UCLA, or I

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Speaker 1: went to UCLA for undergrad When I went to UCLA

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Speaker 1: extent at the time, my parents didn't want me going

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Speaker 1: out of state for school. So I was living at

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Speaker 1: home sixteen, and I thought I was going to double

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Speaker 1: major in biology and in music. Actually, and I got

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Speaker 1: on campus and I found myself drawn to politics. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: the rest is I want.

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Speaker 2: To get back to that a little bit more about

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Speaker 2: How about your sisters? What where did they end up

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Speaker 2: in terms of their professional pursuits and careers.

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Speaker 1: So all of us grew up obviously here, only one

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Speaker 1: is still here. I still have one sister who lives

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Speaker 1: in Orange County. I have a couple of sisters who

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Speaker 1: live within a mile and a half of me in Florida.

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Speaker 1: So basically the whole family ended up in Florida. My

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Speaker 1: parents ended up near me in Florida. My in laws,

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Speaker 1: who lived in Sacramento ended up near me in Florida. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there may be some reasons for that, Governor.

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Speaker 2: We'll get to that. We're going to get to all

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Speaker 2: of that and a lot more. I just want to

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Speaker 2: paint the picture a little bit of camptriciated. Not everybody

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Speaker 2: knows your child, but also connected. I mean, as you said,

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Speaker 2: UCLA undergrad and then your interests.

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Speaker 1: My wife went U SA LA Medical School. I mean

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Speaker 1: we're very California ambedded.

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Speaker 2: I love that. But politics had its calling there. Would

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Speaker 2: you remember sort of a moment or issues or was

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Speaker 2: politics part of the even your child, it was a

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Speaker 2: part of the conversation around the dinner table. Were your

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Speaker 2: parents politically active.

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Speaker 1: And they weren't super politically active. I would say they

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Speaker 1: were kind of Reagan Republicans, and you know, growing up

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Speaker 1: we talk politics in the house. But the thing that

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Speaker 1: sort of sent me in a political direction overtly is

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Speaker 1: I got to college campus at UCLA and I picked

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Speaker 1: up a copy of the UCLA Daily Bruin. And this

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Speaker 1: is back in the year two thousand. There was an

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Speaker 1: editorial from the Bruin editorial board, I believe, comparing Ariol

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Speaker 1: Scheron than the Prime Minister of Israel who in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and one, I guess to Aolf Eichmann, the Nazi,

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Speaker 1: and so I walked in and I said, I'd like

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Speaker 1: to write a counter to that, and that turned into

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Speaker 1: a point counterpoint column that I would write every week.

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Speaker 1: That became pretty popular. It turned into kind of a

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Speaker 1: normal column. And then I went to my father one

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Speaker 1: day and I said, do you think that my stuff

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Speaker 1: is good enough to be published in like a normal paper?

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Speaker 1: And he said, you know, it might be. Let me

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Speaker 1: do some research. So he found this place called Creator

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Speaker 1: Syndicate again out of California, and they syndicate a bunch

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Speaker 1: of columns to for newspapers around the country. At the time,

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Speaker 1: it was everybody from Molly Ivans on the left to

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Speaker 1: David Limbaugh on the right. And so I applied cold

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Speaker 1: and they called me three weeks later. I was seventeen

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Speaker 1: and they said, we'd love you to write a syndicated column.

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Speaker 1: So pretty much all of my bad ideas since I

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Speaker 1: was seventeen have been public, which is, you know, an

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Speaker 1: interesting way to live for sure.

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Speaker 2: S seventeen, I mean, that's pretty remarkable that young age,

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Speaker 2: you have a syndicated national column. And a few years later,

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Speaker 2: twenty you have published what two books?

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Speaker 1: So you write? My first book came out when I

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Speaker 1: was twenty from It was sort of an expose of

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Speaker 1: leftism on college campuses. I think some might say it

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Speaker 1: was a little ahead of its time. And then I

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Speaker 1: went to Harvard Law School at twenty and I wrote

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Speaker 1: a couple of more books while I was at Harvard Law.

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Speaker 1: And when I came out, I came back to LA

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Speaker 1: and I practiced at a real estate firm or real

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Speaker 1: estate wing of a major law firm called Goodwin Proctor.

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Speaker 1: I practiced there. I lasted for about ten months, decided

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Speaker 1: I hate it quit. I remember walking into the boss's

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Speaker 1: office and saying, I hate it here and I want

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Speaker 1: to leave. And I remember him turning to me and saying,

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Speaker 1: you're never going to make as much mone needs you're

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Speaker 1: making right now. And I've been wanting to send them

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Speaker 1: some tax returns for now. But you know, it all

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Speaker 1: worked out. Politics was something that I was always very

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Speaker 1: invested in, and so my sort of political approach generally

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Speaker 1: is that I'm much more invested in principles than personalities.

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Speaker 1: I care much more about the ideas than I do

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Speaker 1: about sort of the the gossip aspect of politics. I

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Speaker 1: think that that's unfortunately becoming less common. I think that

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Speaker 1: you know, it's great that you're having me on. I

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Speaker 1: really appreciate that. I like the exchange of ideas. I've

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Speaker 1: always liked the exchange of ideas, and so that's that's

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Speaker 1: still I hope when animates may when animates the.

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Speaker 2: Show love that. What I mean, you're you're obviously known

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Speaker 2: as you know, I mean, people have described you in

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Speaker 2: so many different ways, but debate brow I mean, is

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Speaker 2: there a quick wits I mean, obviously next level intellect

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Speaker 2: ability to quickly distill facts and figures. You talk about

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Speaker 2: facts over emotion, et cetera. But were you that person

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Speaker 2: in high school? Were you that person in middle score?

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Speaker 2: Did that?

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Speaker 1: That's pretty combative? In high school, I would say I'd

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Speaker 1: skipped a couple of grades. So I skipped third and

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Speaker 1: I skip ninth. Wow, And so I was much younger,

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Speaker 1: and much shorter, and much skinnier, and much more of

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Speaker 1: a wise the ass probably in some of the other

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Speaker 1: kids in my high school class, and so high school

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Speaker 1: was not exactly a joy for that reason. But I've

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Speaker 1: said before that obviously bullying is terrible, but being bullied

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Speaker 1: can be sort of a make or break situation for you,

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Speaker 1: meaning that a lot of the people that I know

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Speaker 1: who are very successful went through a lot of adversity

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Speaker 1: in that age range, and then you sort of develop

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Speaker 1: an attitude, and the attitude is okay, I can either

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Speaker 1: use this as fuel and grist for the mill and say, listen,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to take all that negativity and channel it

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Speaker 1: toward you know, more strength and more positivity and building

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Speaker 1: and maybe you get a little bit of a chip

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Speaker 1: on your shoulder sometimes or you can kind of let

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Speaker 1: it break it down.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember, I mean some of the specific instances

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Speaker 2: where you sort of you had that kind of exchange.

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Speaker 2: Where was it political? Was it? Because I mean the

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Speaker 2: fact you're always younger, a little bit smarter, maybe you're

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Speaker 2: quick witted. I mean, was do you remember political?

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Speaker 1: Interpersonal? But I remember, you know, being the kind of

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Speaker 1: kid who when I was sixteen years old, there was

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Speaker 1: a program at the UC system that was all about

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Speaker 1: affirmative action at the UC system. I remember there were

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Speaker 1: about a thousand people who were protesting down in the

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Speaker 1: plaza or there, and I believe I was the only

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Speaker 1: counter protester interesting and I would show up in and

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Speaker 1: do that that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Did you have you have the was it the confidence

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Speaker 2: or was the gumption? What was it? I mean, was

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Speaker 2: it something your parents distilled in you just stand up

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Speaker 2: for ideals? Striking?

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Speaker 1: I think it was more stand up for ideals. But

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Speaker 1: but also you know, from the time that I was young,

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Speaker 1: I never had any problem with being in crowds or

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Speaker 1: being in front of people or yeah, exactly, I played violin,

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Speaker 1: and so if if you spend a lot of time

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Speaker 1: playing you know, a rigorous sort of set of pieces

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Speaker 1: in front of people, and you do that over and

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Speaker 1: over and over, it kind of gets rid of whatever

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Speaker 1: trepidation you might have in front of people and doing

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Speaker 1: that sort when did you.

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Speaker 2: Was there a moment when you sort of developed a

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Speaker 2: next level confidence you're like, wait, I'm pretty good at

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Speaker 2: this or was it the writing.

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Speaker 1: That was doing you know, I'm not sure. I will

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Speaker 1: say I don't think that it's ever good to develop

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Speaker 1: next level confidence, meaning I think you got to prep

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Speaker 1: for everything. One of the things that I try to

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Speaker 1: do is really over prepare for my show. If I'm

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Speaker 1: going to have a debate or a discussion with somebody,

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Speaker 1: I really try to dig in and get into what's

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Speaker 1: true what's not true. I would much rather be overprepared.

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Speaker 1: I think there's a certain level of insecurity that's good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think when you're overconfident, that's when you made mistakes.

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Speaker 1: I think in my career, whenever I've made a mistake,

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Speaker 1: it's typically because I didn't take a challenge seriously enough

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Speaker 1: or I sort of brushed it off. Yeah, and you

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Speaker 1: see that happen. A lot of people sort of rely

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Speaker 1: on their native intelligence as opposed to assuming that you're

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Speaker 1: not going to be the smartest person in the room

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Speaker 1: all the time. Remember when I was in middle school,

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Speaker 1: so some went to Walter Reed in North Hollywood, and

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Speaker 1: they had a Magnet school, like a highly gifted program.

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Speaker 1: And I remember there was an IQ test actually kind

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Speaker 1: of a rudimentary IQ test that was the baseline to

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Speaker 1: get in. And I got in, but I didn't get

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Speaker 1: in leaps and bounds, and we you know, I remember

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Speaker 1: first day of class, everybody's kind of passing around their

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Speaker 1: IQ scores and all this kind of stuff, and one

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Speaker 1: girl had had above one eighty, really really really high IQ.

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Speaker 1: And I remember going back home and talking to my

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Speaker 1: father about it. He said, listen, you should assume that

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Speaker 1: you're never the smartest person in the room, but you

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Speaker 1: can always be the hardest working person in the room.

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Speaker 1: I love that, and that I think has been sort

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Speaker 1: of the motto.

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Speaker 2: I love it. So you went, you know, UCLA undergrad.

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Speaker 2: Here you are seventeen national syndicated columnists. A few years

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Speaker 2: later he got two published books about issues around the universe.

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Speaker 2: As you say, you may have been a step or

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Speaker 2: two ahead of most in that respect, and then issues

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Speaker 2: around I mean, it was interesting, is the porn industry

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Speaker 2: broadly defined it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I was writing books about how the pornography industry

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Speaker 1: was going to really carve out, particularly young men's souls

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Speaker 1: in about two thousand and five, and at the time

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Speaker 1: people were saying, oh, this is crazy. What is he

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Speaker 1: talking about now? Of course, I think that there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of young men who have fallen prey to

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Speaker 1: that industry, who needs less family formation and less general happiness,

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Speaker 1: less sex, Actually people who are kind of falling out

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Speaker 1: of the social fabric that's necessary to build societies. I

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Speaker 1: was calling that out in about two thousand, so to.

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Speaker 2: Say, even in my state of the state last week,

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Speaker 2: I referenced just one of many different statistics but roughly

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Speaker 2: half of young men have never asked a woman out

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Speaker 2: in person on a date. So your point emphasis and

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Speaker 2: that and we I want to unpack that a little

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Speaker 2: bit later as well in the conversation. But you started

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Speaker 2: then to not only identify yourself in the context of

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Speaker 2: your intellectual pursuits and expressing your point of view through

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Speaker 2: writing also sort of gifted capacity to engage in debate

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Speaker 2: and speech. But then you found Andrew Breitbart was out

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Speaker 2: and about in southern California, and you took a job

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Speaker 2: there working at Breitbart.

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Speaker 1: That went in twenty twelve. During the twenty twelve election,

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Speaker 1: I joined Brightbart. I'd known Andrew actually since my UCLA days,

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Speaker 1: so I'd known him already for quite a number of years.

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Speaker 2: What did you think of Andrew?

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Speaker 1: A lot of Andrews and so I think that there's

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Speaker 1: sort of that. I mean, you're in public life, so

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Speaker 1: you know, there's for a lot of people that are

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Speaker 1: sort of like the private person, there's the public person.

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Speaker 1: They're not quite the same. So Andrew, the private person

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Speaker 1: in the public person were actually very much the same,

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Speaker 1: I would say up until the end. Toward the end,

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Speaker 1: I think that Andrew became very frustrated with a lot

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Speaker 1: of the political system media coverage. But the truth is

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Speaker 1: that Andrew was, for the vast majority of the time

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Speaker 1: I knew him, very garrulous, willing to have conversations with

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Speaker 1: nearly anyone. I think that if you talk to people

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Speaker 1: who knew Andrew really well, they're their best memories of

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Speaker 1: him are things like him just rollerblading in Venice and

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Speaker 1: then just having like political conversations, taking somebody to coffee

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Speaker 1: like a random person. What I used to say to

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Speaker 1: people about Andrew is that I knew Andrew for over

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Speaker 1: a decade before he passed away, and if you knew

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Speaker 1: Andrew for five minutes, you knew him about ninety five

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Speaker 1: percent as well as I did, because he was just

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Speaker 1: very much there, Like he was just on the surface

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Speaker 1: everything that what you saw is what you got with Andrew.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I joined Bright Barton in about two thousand

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Speaker 1: and twelve, who was during the Romney the Romney Obama

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Speaker 1: election cycle. I was there for a few years. I

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Speaker 1: believe I ended up leaving in two thousand and sixteen,

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Speaker 1: like early twenty sixteen. There had been some sort of

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Speaker 1: career transitions there in which I was taking other jobs

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Speaker 1: at the same time. There's a point again going under

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Speaker 1: that sort of working hard rubric. There's one which I

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Speaker 1: was working effectively for jobs. I was doing a morning

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Speaker 1: show in la where I interviewed you, actually, and then

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Speaker 1: there was an afternoon show that I was doing in Seattle,

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Speaker 1: so has six hours of radio day. I was the

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Speaker 1: editor at larger Brightbart, which meant writing a piece or

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Speaker 1: two a day for Breitbart, and then I had also

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Speaker 1: taken a job as the editor in chief of a

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Speaker 1: website called truth Revolt for the David Horwitz Freedom Center.

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Speaker 1: So I was working for jobs simultaneously. And yeah, again,

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Speaker 1: my advice to young people particularly want to be successful,

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Speaker 1: say yes to doing everything, even if it's for free

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Speaker 1: at the beginning, because eventually saying yes a lot gets

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Speaker 1: you the power to say no later on in your

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Speaker 1: career when you can sort of winnow down what will

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Speaker 1: make you successful.

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Speaker 2: And people A lot of folks know this, but a

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Speaker 2: lot of folks don't. Steve Bannon was down there working

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Speaker 2: by Bard at the time you guys got along. Initially.

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Speaker 1: I know the beginning, and Steve is not the easiest

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Speaker 1: person too. I will say that we'll talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit more, just briefly.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to over index with Steve, but so

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Speaker 2: you left in twy sixteen, but twenty fifteen you more

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Speaker 2: formally established what more commonly is identified with the Day

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Speaker 2: to call it, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean it was it was Daily Wires, right, So

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Speaker 1: Daily Wire we established formally in twenty so it would

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Speaker 1: have been in the middle of the primary, so it

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Speaker 1: had been twenty sixteen. That's when we formally launched. Was

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Speaker 1: a few months before the election of twenty sixteen. I'd

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Speaker 1: been working at the David Horwitz Freedom Center. It was

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Speaker 1: kind of a funny story there where we had Jeremy

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Speaker 1: Boring and I who are business partners. He'd been working

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Speaker 1: there and he basically hit upon what was a social

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Speaker 1: media arbitrage plan. He basically saw that you could market

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Speaker 1: on social media in new ways and that would bring

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Speaker 1: you traffic. And we proposed this to the board. They

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Speaker 1: legitimately did not understand what we were talking about, because

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Speaker 1: boards of nonprofits are famously, you know, sort of elderly

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Speaker 1: and non tech involved, and so we made a presentation.

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Speaker 1: Jeremy was kind of fondly known as the as the

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Speaker 1: Stupid Whisperer because we'd met with many congress people, and

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Speaker 1: I speak quickly, and Jeremy spoke slowly with the Southern accent,

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Speaker 1: and so he would very often get across better see

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Speaker 1: those congress people who shall remain unnamed. Anyway, we met

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Speaker 1: with the board, Jeremy sort of explained the marketing plan.

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Speaker 1: They had no idea what he was talking about. They

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Speaker 1: turned to me and they said, Ben, can you explain

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Speaker 1: the marketing plan? I said, sure, very easy. I was

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Speaker 1: frustrated by this point, so I took out a napkin

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Speaker 1: and I wrote on it dollar sign arrow, Facebook, arrow, website,

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Speaker 1: arrow back to dollars in your book. Yeah, exactly. And

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Speaker 1: that was the marketing plan, right. It was that you're

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Speaker 1: going to spend money on social media in order to

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Speaker 1: gain eyeballs. Those eyeballs would then provide advertising on your website,

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Speaker 1: and then you would just direct that money back into Facebook.

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Speaker 1: And so it's kind of a flywheel. And they fired

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Speaker 1: Jeremy the next day. I quit a couple of days later,

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Speaker 1: and then we basically took that plan out to market.

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Speaker 1: We found a little bit of seed funding, five million

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Speaker 1: dollars in seed funding originally, and we launched daily Wire,

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Speaker 1: which last year did two hundred million dollars plus in revenue.

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Speaker 2: How many how many employees now daily we.

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Speaker 1: Have about two hundred and twenty employees. Wow at daily ware.

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Speaker 2: And you guys are doing the I mean, well we

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Speaker 2: can talk more specifically, but I mean it's documentaries, it's movies. Yes,

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Speaker 2: it's all this show. I mean, it's a whole suite

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Speaker 2: of Yeah.

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Speaker 1: We tried to turn it into a semi major media company. Right,

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Speaker 1: it's probably the second biggest conservative media company in the

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Speaker 1: country after Fox.

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Speaker 2: So at the time, who were your mentors who were

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Speaker 2: looking up to at the time? Who did you want

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Speaker 2: to become?

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Speaker 1: Was?

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Speaker 2: I mean Andrew obviously had a big impact, I assume

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Speaker 2: in terms of your trajectory. Who else was out there

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Speaker 2: you were watching? Was it the limbas of the world?

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Speaker 2: Was it the savages of the world? Who? I mean

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Speaker 2: on radio?

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Speaker 1: So I think it was sort of a different thing

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Speaker 1: in every industry. So from a sort of ideological point

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Speaker 1: of view, just being a great writer, be people like

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Speaker 1: Charles Crowdhammer, Yeah, which, of course I love the writing.

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Speaker 1: That's actually my favorite thing that I do because I

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Speaker 1: can sit there, organize my thoughts and I happen to

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Speaker 1: write incredibly quickly. So that's that's very nice. And then

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Speaker 1: you know, from a from a you know, radio or

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Speaker 1: podcast point of view, obviously Rush Russia is sort of

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Speaker 1: the granddaddy was all in this industry. And so Rush

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Speaker 1: was the guy who I grew up listening to on

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Speaker 1: talk radio, you know him, Larry Elderly, everybody who's sort

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Speaker 1: of in the LA radio sphere when I was growing up.

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Speaker 1: And then in sort of social media land, obviously Andrew

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Speaker 1: was a major force in sort of showing what you

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Speaker 1: could do in the in the new media. And so

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Speaker 1: I would say that that triumph, it would be a

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Speaker 1: pretty good way of defining.

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Speaker 2: What else and were you inspired? I mean at the time,

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Speaker 2: just even beyond those examples where there are books you

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Speaker 2: were reading at the time, periodicals that really inspired.

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Speaker 1: So I read incessantly. I've been reading three to five

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Speaker 1: books a week since I was probably old enough to

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Speaker 1: read wow. So you know, the books that I was

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Speaker 1: reading on economics were things like hyek.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: I spent actually less time engaging, I would say, with

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Speaker 1: you know, the the non traditional media space that I

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Speaker 1: do engaging with books and great ideas. I hope, I

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Speaker 1: mean that that's where I'd like to spend my time. Also,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm lucky. From Friday night to Saturday night.

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Speaker 1: I can't engage with media, right I'm Northodox Jews, so

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Speaker 1: all of the electricity goes away, And so I read

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Speaker 1: a lot of books. You know, if you are now

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Speaker 1: then I used to because I have four kids now.

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Speaker 1: But that means that if I want to. What's great

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Speaker 1: about that, for what I do is that if a

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Speaker 1: topic comes up in the news, I have a pretty

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Speaker 1: good memory bank to draw on in terms of a

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Speaker 1: baseline of knowledge that I can then supplement with sort

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Speaker 1: of further research. But I have a very strongly defined

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Speaker 1: kind of worldview about everything from economics to foreign policy

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Speaker 1: to social policy that I hope is rooted in some

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00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,640
Speaker 1: fundamental values, which means that I would say my level

439
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,960
Speaker 1: of political consistency has been pretty high over the course

440
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,120
Speaker 1: the last couple of decades. And forty two, that's turn

441
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,119
Speaker 1: forty two years old this week, and I've been in

442
00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:47,040
Speaker 1: this industry for a quarter century. I started writing at seventeen,

443
00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,160
Speaker 1: and if you read stuff from when I'm seventeen, if

444
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,480
Speaker 1: it wasn't highly dumb, which some of it is, but

445
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,280
Speaker 1: if you were to find a column I wrote when

446
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:55,600
Speaker 1: I was twenty three, and it wasn't one of the

447
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:57,240
Speaker 1: ones that was like trying to get attention and look

448
00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,320
Speaker 1: at me. If it was one of my more serious columns,

449
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:00,840
Speaker 1: you'd probably look like lot like the stuff that I'm

450
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:01,359
Speaker 1: saying today.

451
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,240
Speaker 2: What do you make of the current media landscape? I mean,

452
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,439
Speaker 2: it seems to be the sort of dialectic between the

453
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:10,679
Speaker 2: old and the new, sort of the digital first and

454
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,920
Speaker 2: these legacy media companies and obviously podcasts becoming at least

455
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,199
Speaker 2: part of the normal. It's a conversation. I don't know.

456
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,800
Speaker 2: We can get into the merits to merits of overstating

457
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,560
Speaker 2: or over indexing podcast influence, but so much of what

458
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,160
Speaker 2: you seeded and influenced in terms of the right wing

459
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,600
Speaker 2: media even now in some respects what folks are trying

460
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,000
Speaker 2: to replicate with more progressive media voices. What do you

461
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,679
Speaker 2: make of the landscape today? How would you describe the

462
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:38,440
Speaker 2: current landscape.

463
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,760
Speaker 1: I'm highly fragmented. I think in some ways that's good.

464
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,320
Speaker 1: I think in some ways that's bad. It's had tremendous

465
00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,320
Speaker 1: benefits in the sense that you don't have three networks

466
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,240
Speaker 1: and you have to rely on just those three networks,

467
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:50,840
Speaker 1: you can in real time fact check things. It's bad

468
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,680
Speaker 1: in the sense that, while gatekeeping is difficult and obviously

469
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,560
Speaker 1: can silo off information that you need to have, if

470
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,199
Speaker 1: you have people who are algorithmically driven or desperate for

471
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,560
Speaker 1: clicks and desperate for attention and don't seem to carry

472
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:06,919
Speaker 1: very much about the truth, and if there's kind of

473
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,639
Speaker 1: no pushback, then bad information can spin its way around

474
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,399
Speaker 1: very very quickly, and it doesn't take long for people

475
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:16,000
Speaker 1: to draw extremely hard narratives about I would say, convoluted

476
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,280
Speaker 1: sets of facts. And I think that you know, frankly,

477
00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:24,119
Speaker 1: politicians sometimes have a position in doing this because if

478
00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,919
Speaker 1: you're catering to a base, and obviously an everybody has

479
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,639
Speaker 1: to be aware of audience capture. In my industry, in politics,

480
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:31,640
Speaker 1: you have to be very aware of audience capture because

481
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,000
Speaker 1: you need to win votes. But I mean, just to

482
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,639
Speaker 1: take as a recent example what happened in Minneapolis, I

483
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,480
Speaker 1: think that the enormy response to what happened in Minneapolis

484
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,680
Speaker 1: is this is obviously a tragedy. From a sort of

485
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:47,920
Speaker 1: legal perspective, putting on my lawyer hat, the intent of

486
00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,560
Speaker 1: renee Good is not relevant to the question of the

487
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,199
Speaker 1: intent of the officer. Right if you're going to if

488
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,240
Speaker 1: you're going to prosecute the officer, then you'd have to

489
00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:58,439
Speaker 1: determine whether an objective reasonable officer would have perceived that

490
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,679
Speaker 1: he was being threatened by her vehicle when when he

491
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:02,080
Speaker 1: shot her. And it seems to me that you could,

492
00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,720
Speaker 1: you could voice a fairly strong defense in a court

493
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,520
Speaker 1: of law that an objectively reasonable offster, since he actually

494
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 1: was nudged with the car at the very least, would

495
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,280
Speaker 1: would have perceived it that way. Now, this immediately broke

496
00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,120
Speaker 1: down into two separate narratives, both of which I think

497
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 1: are untrue. One was a narrative that was immediately pushed

498
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,600
Speaker 1: by the Trump administration and Secretary of Homeland Security Christino

499
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:23,600
Speaker 1: and that she was a domestic terrorist who's attempting to

500
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,080
Speaker 1: run over officers with her car and was legitimately trying

501
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,440
Speaker 1: not not just this officer, but multiple officers. That was

502
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,560
Speaker 1: the original statement I said at the time. I thought

503
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:35,280
Speaker 1: that was untrue. And then your press office tweeted out

504
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,960
Speaker 1: that it was state sponsored terrorism, which I mean, Governor,

505
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,400
Speaker 1: I have to ask you about that that that sort

506
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,520
Speaker 1: of thing makes our politics worse. I mean it does,

507
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 1: and our ice officers obviously are not terrorists. A tragic

508
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:52,720
Speaker 1: situation is not state sponsored terrorism. When it comes to ICE,

509
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll ask you this just generally about policy

510
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,199
Speaker 1: with REGARDIS, because obviously it's become incredibly contentious given what

511
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 1: the federal government is doing. In states like California, it

512
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:03,480
Speaker 1: seems to me that there have been a number of

513
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,119
Speaker 1: deportations from red states where there are governors in localities

514
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 1: working with ICE. California is a sanctuary state, which makes

515
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 1: it much more difficult for local law enforcement to hand

516
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,920
Speaker 1: over information to ICE about deportation status. What's the purpose

517
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 1: of that? Wouldn't best policy? You're pragmatic, You talk about

518
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,199
Speaker 1: your pragmatism all the time. Wouldn't best policy be to

519
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 1: cooperate with ICE in the vast majority of cases? So

520
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,240
Speaker 1: instead of ICE going to, as you say, hospitals and

521
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 1: churches to f pike people up, they be going to

522
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:30,119
Speaker 1: jail houses.

523
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 2: That's exactly what they do in California, And we have

524
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,639
Speaker 2: over ten thousand that I've cooperated with since I've been

525
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,680
Speaker 2: governor of California. We worked very directly with ICE as

526
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:43,399
Speaker 2: it relates to CDCR state prison. Californias cooperated with more

527
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,639
Speaker 2: ICE transfers probably than any other state in the country,

528
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 2: and I've vetoed multiple pieces of legislation that have come

529
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,440
Speaker 2: from my legislature to stop the ability for the state

530
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,520
Speaker 2: of California to do that. So, when it comes to

531
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 2: the issues of violent criminals, when it comes to Falon's

532
00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 2: people that are being released from the largest state system

533
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 2: in the United States of America, California cooperates with ICE.

534
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 1: Okay, But why is it then? What makes it a

535
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 1: sanctuary state.

536
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,159
Speaker 2: Well, the broader sanctuary policies that are established, and we

537
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 2: had a policy it was established under Governor Brown SB.

538
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 2: Fifty four. You have city sanctuary policies that go back

539
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 2: quite literally to the time Ronald Reagan was governor, and

540
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,400
Speaker 2: it relates to some of the issues in Central America

541
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,959
Speaker 2: sort of the origin stories. But at bottom line, it

542
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:29,040
Speaker 2: relates to those policies. This notion that federal law should

543
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 2: be enforced by federal law enforcement agencies, that we should

544
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 2: not consign local law enforcement to federal responsibilities and prioritization.

545
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 1: Right, we shouldn't the states step in with localities and

546
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,880
Speaker 1: tell localities that they ought to cooperate better with ICE.

547
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 1: Thus to facilitate well, you.

548
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 2: Know, I have sort of Rudy Giuliani's point of view,

549
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 2: who made the point as an advocate for sanctuary policy

550
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 2: when he was mayor of New York. He said, it

551
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,959
Speaker 2: keeps people safer, healthier, and more educated. Safer in the

552
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 2: context that it allows community members to be more likely

553
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,639
Speaker 2: to participate as witnesses of crime or victims of crime

554
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,159
Speaker 2: in going after the perpetrators, more likely to get an

555
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 2: immunization shot if they're not worried about the nurse turning

556
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,479
Speaker 2: them over to ice, more likely to go to school

557
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 2: and get educated if they're not worried about the school

558
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 2: crossing guard crossing them and ultimately turning them over to ice.

559
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:18,360
Speaker 2: So it's the tool of pragmatism because of the complete

560
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 2: abject failure of the federal government. A sanctuary policy is

561
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,439
Speaker 2: unnecessary if we had comprehensive immigration reform and we had

562
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 2: a federal response that was adequate to the task. But

563
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 2: in the absen of that, it's grown from the seventies

564
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 2: and eighties and nineties two thousands, and obviously I got

565
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 2: here as governor, and we had an established framework before

566
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 2: I got here.

567
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 1: It is true that sanctuary policy obviously has had a

568
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: massive impact as a driver of tremendous number of illegal

569
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 1: immigrants in the state of California.

570
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 2: I don't know about that. I mean, you see in

571
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 2: a lot of states that don't have sanctuary policies, huge

572
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 2: increase in immigration, illegal immigration, massive increases, even far greater

573
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 2: than the state of California.

574
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 1: Just look as in terms of the cost structure. I

575
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 1: mean you recently, for example, had to freeze the enrollment

576
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: of undocumented immigrants in state health systems to save money.

577
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 2: Right, That's that's a separate issue. There twelve states that

578
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 2: provide health care for undocs, and we believe in universal

579
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 2: health care regardless. Break is a condition.

580
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 1: The colst structures extraordinarily burdensome.

581
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 2: But I don't think it's in unpacking it. I don't

582
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,439
Speaker 2: think it's a sanctuary policies that are driving that. And

583
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 2: I give you a proof point. Florida don't have sanctuary policy,

584
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 2: a huge increase in undocumented community, huge increase in Texas.

585
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 2: It's not a driver. They're sanctuary policies. They don't have

586
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 2: sanctuary policies in those states. The State of California's policies,

587
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 2: I don't think in that respect have invited people into

588
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 2: our state. And I use those as I think proof

589
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 2: points of that, and that's a difference. So the notion

590
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 2: of how do you deal with people that are here

591
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 2: ten fifteen years, how do you deal with mixed status

592
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 2: families in this state, and how do you provide for

593
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 2: health care as opposed to emergency care and stabilized populations

594
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 2: and community health. It's a different approach. It's one that

595
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 2: we've been very transparent about it. It's one that's hardly unique

596
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 2: because in every state they provide compensated care for on

597
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 2: docks at the emergency room. Many states provide it for children,

598
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 2: many for seniors. California provides it across the board. I mean.

599
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: The biggest problem though, is, as somebody who left the state,

600
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: is that the cost structure in the state has become

601
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: so birds, not just because of illegal immigration but generally,

602
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 1: and so the idea that policy has no impact as

603
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: a magnet for particular human behavior or alienating people from

604
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: a state, that's clearly untrue. And when you look at

605
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: the homeless population, for example, friendlier policies toward providing services

606
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: in Santa Monica.

607
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 2: Point though, but now you're getting a homeless policy, non

608
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 2: immigration policy.

609
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: Of immigration policy. I want to make it easier for

610
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 1: illegal immigrants. Let's stick with immigration to what ICE than

611
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 1: presumably no.

612
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 2: Look, I appreciate this, so we've established important I appreciate

613
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 2: the question because I'm glad we've established that we do

614
00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 2: cooperate with ICE in California, in particular this governor, who,

615
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 2: as I said, on multiple ocasions, vetoed efforts to stop

616
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 2: me from that coordination for dangerous criminals. And we've done

617
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 2: that over ten thousand folks.

618
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: So it'd been wrong for us. So when AOC said

619
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: this week that I should be abolished, you disagree, Oh.

620
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 2: I disagree. When I think a candidate for president by

621
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 2: the name Maharris said that in the last a cana

622
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 2: I came out, it was I remember being on Chris

623
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 2: Hayes hours later saying, I think that's a mistake. So

624
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 2: absolutely Number two, as it relates to the issue of

625
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,360
Speaker 2: sanctuary policy, I think it's important to establish because it's

626
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 2: not well established. Sanctuary jurisdictions have lower crime rates, lower

627
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,239
Speaker 2: crime rates than non sanctuary jurisdictions. So this notion that

628
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 2: it somehow increases crime is also I think contradicted on

629
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 2: the basis of the facts. So this notion that population

630
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 2: it becomes an attractive nature for population increases. I think

631
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 2: is contradicted by the facts as it relates to crime.

632
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 2: It's contradicted by the facts. But there's unquestionably, and you're

633
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 2: right about this as it relates to an expansion of services,

634
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 2: but not just for sanctuary jurisdictions, for population diverse populations. Yes,

635
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 2: there are states like California that have chosen a different approach.

636
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,199
Speaker 1: And that approach I mean means that when you came

637
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 1: into office, for example, the budget was two hundred billion dollars,

638
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 1: and your proposed budget last year or this year is

639
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: three hundred and fifty billion dollars.

640
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 2: The general funds two hundred and forty eight billion. We

641
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,360
Speaker 2: have forty two point three billion dollar additional revenue structure

642
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 2: then we anticipated. By the way, another two point eight

643
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 2: came in in December, and California is now replenishing its

644
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 2: reserves twenty three billion dollars, paying down pension obligations eleven

645
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 2: point eight billion dollars. There's no question there cost pressures,

646
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 2: its rates to medicate are medical and medical in California,

647
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 2: and those pressures are going to be made worse because

648
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 2: of the big beautiful bill.

649
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: Well, I mean I think that the main pressures in

650
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: the state of California in terms of kind of future

651
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: cost looks like some of the programs that you mentioned,

652
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 1: mainly if we're going to look at it, CalPERS cost hours,

653
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: the fact that you have perhaps five hundred billion dollars

654
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: in unfunded liabilities going forward, well.

655
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 2: In which we've substantially improved in the last seven years.

656
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 2: I just mentioned the eleven point eight billion dollar commitment.

657
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 2: We've highlighted that in the state of the state to

658
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 2: pay down long term pension obligations stirs and purrs. Their

659
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 2: funded liability has been improving over the last five or

660
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 2: six years, can make up for the last thirty years.

661
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 2: You may recall a decade plus ago we did reforms

662
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 2: for new employees moving in. We dealt with spiking and

663
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 2: other issues and abuses in that space. We're hardly unique

664
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 2: in this country as it relates to unfunded liability.

665
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: But there are fraud issues obviously, and fraud issues.

666
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 2: Let's we can talk about fraud all day. I'd love

667
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 2: to talk about that, and we could get back to

668
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 2: that because I think it's incredibly important topic in California

669
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 2: has been actually out front on a lot of these

670
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 2: anti fraud efforts, and you know, I think there's a

671
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: lot of you know, a lot of bs in this

672
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 2: space as it relates to sort of targeted assaults and

673
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 2: offense that obviously are big pentapolgects. But I want to

674
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 2: go back because we're going to get all of this.

675
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 2: I know everyone came here for all this stuff.

676
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: Of course, before we do, they just want to ask.

677
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: There's sort of a general take that I have, and

678
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: that is I heard the podcast Theater with Esra Client.

679
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 1: I think Ezra is wonderful. You know, he and I

680
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: disagree about nearly everything. And I think as was really

681
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: really a fascinating person with a lot of really interesting

682
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: and heterodox ideas. And he talked with you a lot

683
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: about sort of governance, and you talked with him a

684
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: lot about how you were trying to remove regulatory barriers

685
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: to for example, building units, right because when you came

686
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: into office you wanted to build I believe it was

687
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: three point five million units that was that was.

688
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 2: The stated need.

689
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: Right.

690
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 2: Then we created a legal framework a two and a

691
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 2: half million.

692
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,479
Speaker 1: And it will come as shorty to that, but it's

693
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 1: like twenty thirty what is it about one hundred one

694
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand units that are being.

695
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 2: Little little less thane hundred and fifty thousand. You're right

696
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 2: about one hundred and eleven hundred and eight thousand.

697
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: And this isn't this isn't rip on you.

698
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 2: I mean, because it's going to have major national issues,

699
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 2: you know in the Mauth economics of this with interistrate

700
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 2: environment sort of post COVID environment made this housing crisis across.

701
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: Although to be fair that the housing crisis in California

702
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: is particularly bad. I mean their places like Phoenix or Austin,

703
00:30:58,200 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 1: or there's.

704
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 2: The original said yesterday and last week in the state

705
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 2: of State. It's the original sin our inability to get

706
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 2: out of our own way and all the regulatory thinks right,

707
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 2: and we blew through those in the last couple of years.

708
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 2: Sixty one housing reform bills we just passed, and Ezra

709
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 2: was highlighting that interesting in New York just moved in direction.

710
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 2: I think finally we Democrats broadly are moving now finally

711
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 2: in the right damage direction after decades and decades Democrats

712
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,239
Speaker 2: and Republicans in California neglect in this space, right.

713
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: I think that one of the problems that that people

714
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: see and you know, there's been a big question You've

715
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: asked you. You've talked about it a lot, actually about

716
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: the frustration that people have with politics and the disenchantment

717
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: that people have, and the feeling that no matter what

718
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: they do, they can't get ahead, and that's manifesting into

719
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,719
Speaker 1: a lot of political polarization. And this gets too, I think,

720
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: a sort of broader issue. It's not just you, So

721
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: I don't mean this to be a specific critique of you.

722
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: I think it's a critique of a lot of politicians

723
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: that I have left and right, and that is you

724
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:54,959
Speaker 1: look at the system. You realize as the governor, how

725
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: complex the system is, how difficult it is to get

726
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: things done, how much gridlocked there is in the system.

727
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: But politicians, in order to get elected, have to make

728
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: a lot of promises about how much things are going

729
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: to change in the future, and they usually are talking

730
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: about using the power of government in order to facilitate

731
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: and make that change happen, particularly on the democratic side

732
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: of the aisle. And it seems to me that that

733
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: is a recipe for disaster for the American body politic,

734
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: because if you make promises that cannot be fulfilled because

735
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: the system does not allow for it to be fulfilled.

736
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: People inherently end up frustrated. And you know, I have

737
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: relatives who still live in the state of California. I

738
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: visit it routinely, and they're making a very good living.

739
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 1: I have a sister in law and brother in law

740
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: live in LA. They make a combined excellent living, and

741
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: they're barely making their mortgage. And the housing costs are

742
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: too high. The cost of living is too high. I

743
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,959
Speaker 1: believe the poverty rates in California on a cost adjusted

744
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 1: basis are some of the highest in the nation.

745
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 2: Right there with Florida. When you look at the supplemental poverty. Next,

746
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 2: when you look at poverty broadly, to find it's slightly

747
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 2: above average supplemental Florida and California a right.

748
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: If you're looking at real estate costs in particular, are

749
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: extraordinary in the state of calif As you say, you know,

750
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: you're trying to remove regulations. But the problem is that

751
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: unless we are willing to recognize a fundamental reality, which

752
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: is that the relationship of the American people with their

753
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: government needs to change. And what that means is that

754
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: we need to radically, radically remove the regulatory structures that

755
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: allow for more building. That we need to radically stop

756
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: perverting markets when it comes to how we make housing policy.

757
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: That we need to stop wasting money in taxpayer funding

758
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: on things like, for example, a gigantic once called the

759
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: boon Zago high speed rail that is going to cost

760
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 1: an access of one hundred billion dollars in this state,

761
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: you know, the guarantee. And again I see it rising

762
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: on the populist right too, which is sort of a

763
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: big government right, which is something I object to on

764
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: a sort of classically conservative level. The promises that are

765
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 1: made that if you give government more power and more

766
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: tax payer revenue, that suddenly these problems are going to

767
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: be alleviated, and the actual result, which is less ability

768
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: to move to do what my parents did, to move

769
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: from a two bedroom small house in Burbank to a

770
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: four bedroom, slightly larger house in North Hollywood, and then

771
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 1: for me to go to a great state school like UCLA,

772
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: and then for me to go to Harvard Law School,

773
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: and now to have a really really nice house. You know,

774
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:17,919
Speaker 1: I did have a nice house in California before before

775
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: we left. Obviously, you know, those obstacles need to be.

776
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 2: Well, you sound like me. I couldn't agree the more

777
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 2: I mean, we get high speed rail aside, you made

778
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 2: my speech in my argument last three years in terms

779
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 2: of the housing reforms we pursued, could not agree more.

780
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 2: I highlighted the sixty one bills just last year. I

781
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 2: didn't highlight the forty two secret reform bills. The origin

782
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 2: you talk about process and regulatory thickets those environmental rules

783
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 2: that were established, ironically by Ronald Reagan himself when he

784
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 2: was governor of California. So we've been in the process

785
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 2: of doing precisely what you're suggesting we need to do,

786
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 2: and we've been doing it very meaningfully and been nation

787
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 2: leading reforms in this space. Now, of course, the private

788
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 2: sector needs to catch up in the context of interest

789
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 2: rate environment becoming more favorable. But now we are cities

790
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 2: and counties we put on notice. Maybe recall when I

791
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 2: first became governor, I sued Huntington Beach, the first city,

792
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 2: because they were out of compliance with their housing element.

793
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 2: We established a legally legally binding goal of two and

794
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 2: a half million units. We talked about the stretch goal,

795
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 2: what needed to get some equilibrium in our prices, the

796
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 2: supply demand imbalance, but we created a legally binding goal

797
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 2: of two and a half million.

798
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: So what we've done to make that happen in not

799
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: Hunting Beach, but La San Francisco.

800
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,359
Speaker 2: Was Well, we've we created a housing of accountability unit.

801
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 2: We pursued forty six actions we've unlocked.

802
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: I guess the question is from like the common man perspective,

803
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,760
Speaker 1: right from my perspective where I left, I took my business.

804
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: Right from that perspective, how do we get to the

805
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: material change? And if we cannot, then perhaps that requires

806
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 1: a complete rethink. Come over to my classical libertarian economics.

807
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 1: Here the owner is I guess I'm what I'm saying,

808
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 1: and maybe recognize that the amount of tax revenue that's

809
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: taken in in the state perverts the market incentives. That

810
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,959
Speaker 1: what's been generated in the state is a middle class

811
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 1: that is really struggling, vast social services for people who

812
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 1: are at poverty line or below and slightly above. And

813
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 1: then you know a group of people who are either

814
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: so wealthy they don't care, or so wealthy now that

815
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 1: now they're leaving right because of the perspective wealth tax,

816
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: which I know you oppose, right, you understand markets. So

817
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: that's why I'm always a little bit bewildered when their

818
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: measures taken by the state legislature that end up perverting

819
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: markets in fairly serious way.

820
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 2: Well, we can get into the corony capitalism, state capitalism,

821
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 2: and the tithings from Nvidia and AMD and what's going

822
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 2: on with Intel and what's happening with the Trump administration

823
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 2: in that respect. But I agree with you broadly in

824
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 2: all this. I mean, the fact is we've been tackling

825
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 2: all I can make up for fifty sixty years, and

826
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 2: you're talking about literally a fifty year trend line as

827
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,399
Speaker 2: it relates to the issues of cost of housing and affordability.

828
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 2: But I can talk in terms of the substance of

829
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,760
Speaker 2: actions we've taken, tripling their income tax credits for working families,

830
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,919
Speaker 2: creating a child tax credit, foster tax credit, doing more

831
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 2: as it relates to predistribution opportunity.

832
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: About radically lowering income tax.

833
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 2: Rates in the California has a tax. I mean, there's

834
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,879
Speaker 2: sixteen states right now, let's talk about those sixteen states.

835
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: Why don't we talk about California.

836
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 2: That's why we're going to the tax. They're low wager

837
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 2: earners more than California taxes. It's highwag earners. Let's talk

838
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 2: about those lowering those tax rates in those sixteen states.

839
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 2: How about the middle class. Forty percent of the middle

840
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 2: class in Texas pay higher taxes than they do in California.

841
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 2: The tax we have the highest tax rate for the

842
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 2: one percent, but the overall tax burden, and there's been

843
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:33,320
Speaker 2: independent analysis after independent analysis, is marginally higher than the

844
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:37,280
Speaker 2: national average. Okay, so the tax rate for the one percent,

845
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 2: you're in that bubble, but ninety nine percent empyeriodically.

846
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: And a person who who grew up in Californians but

847
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 1: my entire career in California, I paid every single tax

848
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: rate in the same California I started off making when

849
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:48,399
Speaker 1: I when I first got out of school and i'd

850
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: quit the law firm, I was making maybe sixty grand

851
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: a year.

852
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 2: So you started out paying less than you would in

853
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 2: a dozen plus other.

854
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: States, and I didn't.

855
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:55,439
Speaker 2: It's a progressive tax.

856
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 1: I understand it's a progressive tax. Date the problem is

857
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 1: that when I left, I also took eighty employees, and

858
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 1: there's somebody who's got to pay the bills for those employees,

859
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 1: and that's typically not the state. The person who is

860
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: paying the bills for the employees and the person.

861
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 2: That's the guy who, by the way, you're talking to

862
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 2: a guy who started to right out of college pen

863
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 2: to paper and started twenty three small businesses, literally twenty

864
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 2: three created almost.

865
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: As so you know, as a person who round small business,

866
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: you wanted to pay salaries to your people, aren't well, right?

867
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not about the greed of the one

868
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:25,399
Speaker 1: of the person.

869
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 2: I hated a lot of the regulations, and I've been

870
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 2: fighting against a lot of.

871
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:30,320
Speaker 1: Them, and having to fire people because of that stuff

872
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 1: is awful, I agree, And losing your profit margin, which

873
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 1: allows you to hire more people is a bad thing

874
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: when you were seeing I mean, I've talked to major

875
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: tech founders who say today that they would not if

876
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: they had to do it over again, they would not

877
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,399
Speaker 1: found in California specifically because of the regulatory and text rules.

878
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about the largest startup in world history

879
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 2: could have chosen any place to open its headquarters. Just

880
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,399
Speaker 2: recently Open AI and the folks there decided to open

881
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 2: in San Francisco.

882
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: Story of the talent is I mean, there's no question there.

883
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 2: In lies the formula for success. Californ has more fortune

884
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 2: five hundred companies than it's ever had in twenty plus years, to.

885
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 1: Be forty million people who live.

886
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 2: Oh, hold on. But four years ago that wasn't the case.

887
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 2: Today it's the case. We have fifty eight fortune five

888
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 2: hundred companies. When I started was forty nine. We're the

889
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 2: sixth largest economy. Now we're the fourth largest economy. You

890
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 2: look at the three point one million jobs that are

891
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 2: being created since I've been governed. You can look across

892
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 2: the spectrum. I'm not denying its challenges, but those persistent

893
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 2: exist in every other state. You moved to a state

894
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 2: that has higher insurance rate, higher car insurance not just

895
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 2: home insurance, has higher property taxes. Many of these red

896
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 2: states they've hired a murder rates, lower wages, lower productivity,

897
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 2: less innovation and entrepreneurialism. They're less contributory to the GDP.

898
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: Of this country. So I mean not not to defend

899
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: my current state Florida. I mean obviously headed debate with

900
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 1: Governor DeSantis where you guys had had this discussion, but

901
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 1: will I will say that some of the statistics that

902
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 1: you use with regard to California are aggregate statistics, not

903
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 1: on a per capita basis. So I've heard you say,

904
00:39:55,760 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: for example, that California is the top innovation state because

905
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 1: it has the highest number of new businesses founded on

906
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 1: a per capita basis, that isn't true.

907
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 2: You talk about on a per capita basis, more Floridians

908
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 2: moving to California than Californians to Florida.

909
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,320
Speaker 1: I mean that's per capita base. That's fine and on appy.

910
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 2: I just want to know it's established a per capit

911
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 2: per cap at a murder rate. Let's look at infant

912
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:18,240
Speaker 2: mortality per capital.

913
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: You can look at look at violent assault rates. We

914
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: can look at property crime rate.

915
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 2: I don't know, that's not I mean, I mean Jacksonville

916
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 2: versus San Francisco.

917
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 1: California, outside of immigration has had a loss of population

918
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: for the past several years. Immigration.

919
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 2: It's part of the secret sauce of California, going back

920
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 2: to its its origin.

921
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 1: I understand. But if you lose people like me and

922
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 1: the EDI employees I took with me, I'm.

923
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 2: Not happy about anyone leaving the state. But population has

924
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,840
Speaker 2: grown three years in a row. Last time it declined,

925
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 2: it went down with eleven other states, and we lost

926
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty one people.

927
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: If you're talking not about immigration. If you're just talking

928
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 1: about people who lived in California horle leaving, that number

929
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 1: is high. And again I'm not blaming that on you.

930
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 2: You give be the case in many many states, as

931
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:56,839
Speaker 2: you know, across this country, by the way, a lot

932
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 2: of red states, which I'm surprised you guys don't talk

933
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 2: more about. What about the last few years all these

934
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 2: red states losing folks. California hasn't been the last few years.

935
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 2: These red states are Louisiana, Mississippi. Let's talk about those states.

936
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:09,879
Speaker 2: But let's talk about the murder rate. Adding a top

937
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 2: ten murder rates in America are in red states. I

938
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 2: think there's some real probably the most regressive taxes in

939
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 2: the country are in these red states. Who are you for?

940
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 1: I mean the question really again, you're the governor of

941
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 1: California and not the governor of Louisiana. If I'm speaking

942
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: with the governor of Louisiana, I'd be very happy to

943
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: talk about just never hear.

944
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 2: Anyone and talk about the governor Louisiana in the population day.

945
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, because the last I'm aware of the governor of Louisiana,

946
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: you know, probably wasn't running for president. And also everyone

947
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 1: else to be running for president.

948
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:41,359
Speaker 2: Were running for president. By the way, let's get back

949
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 2: to that Bannon is running for president. He said, Oh.

950
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 1: Goodness, you don't buy that. No, I bet that Steve

951
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 1: would run a vanity campaign in order to garner a

952
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 1: few dollars and some more attention from self. Sure, why not.

953
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:52,800
Speaker 2: I'm going to get back to all the California bashing

954
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 2: here in a second, because I know everyone wants to

955
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 2: tune in on that, but I want to talk. I

956
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:57,400
Speaker 2: want to keep going a little bit, and just in

957
00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 2: the interest of you coming all the way off from

958
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 2: that red short floor, because it is interesting just in

959
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 2: terms of just as you laid out the framework of

960
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: the media environment in this country, and how fragment it's become, etcetera,

961
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 2: this notion of trust and truth, and how things are weaponized,

962
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 2: and how everybody, you know, society becomes, how we behave

963
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,240
Speaker 2: and how you and diet a little bit my press office,

964
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 2: which I appreciated the direct point you made on that,

965
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 2: and I'm not naive about that. I think about that

966
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 2: all the time. When we put up a mirror to Trump,

967
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 2: we've become more like him. And I'm complicit in that,

968
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 2: not unique.

969
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 1: You obviously we've had things in our company that have

970
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: been said. That's not unique. I will say that I

971
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 1: think that for elected politicians who are hoping for a

972
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 1: better future or we all come together, it is a problem.

973
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 1: And you know, I don't like to catastrophism. I've criticized

974
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 1: it on the right too, the sort of catastrophism that

975
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 1: you see in a functioning democracy, which is what the

976
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: United States is. It is a functioning republic. You know, when,

977
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 1: for example, when the president decided to push for redistricting

978
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 1: and then you push back with your proposition. I actually

979
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: didn't have a problem with that. I thought, you know,

980
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: that is a that is a normal use of the

981
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 1: political mechanisms in order to fight back by one side

982
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: against another. What I do have a problem with is

983
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 1: if you go on Stephen Colbert and say you're word

984
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 1: there won't be a legit election in twenty twenty eight.

985
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 2: I die. But I feel that. I mean, if I

986
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 2: believe it, do you really believe that?

987
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 1: I really believe that, But then why are you running

988
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: or why would you consider it?

989
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 2: I want to make sure those because we have agency,

990
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 2: we can shape the future. It's not something to experience.

991
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 1: But I didn't believe when President Trump said it's a

992
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 1: President Trump said in.

993
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 2: Twenty twenty, he wants I believe in it.

994
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: He tried to truly believe the preident Trump is going

995
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: to try to run in twenty twenty eight.

996
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:31,720
Speaker 2: No, I believe that I'll try to wire the outcome

997
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty eight.

998
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,320
Speaker 1: I really see. This sort of stuff is very dangerous

999
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 1: to me. It really because I heard it from the

1000
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:38,879
Speaker 1: right in the aftermath of twenty twenty, and you'll recall

1001
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: I was one of the few on the right who

1002
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: said this is not true, right, that Joe Biden was legitimately,

1003
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 1: legitimately elected in twenty twenty, and that if someone could

1004
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 1: provide me evidence that he was not, that was sufficient

1005
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: to overcome the Burgin. What Trump tried to do well,

1006
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 1: I mean, what is the thing that you think many

1007
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 1: dialing up.

1008
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 2: For twelve thousand votes in Georgia you end up partying.

1009
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 2: I mean, where you signed, I'm not justifying, I'm not

1010
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 2: justifying and trying to democracy, not justifying what he said

1011
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,840
Speaker 2: to Brad Raffinsburg or over over in Georgia, Brad.

1012
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 1: Raffis wat Mike Pens did the right thing. By the way,

1013
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: and sortifying the election. But my point is that when

1014
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 1: it comes to if you want the country to continue

1015
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: to work together, then if you set the predicate if

1016
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 1: I lose, it was rigged and I can't stand that,

1017
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 1: and then then we need some objective metric on that.

1018
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:23,359
Speaker 1: Then then if you're going to say that we need

1019
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 1: some objective metrics by which we can adjudicate whether or

1020
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 1: not the election will be fairly decided. And it seems

1021
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 1: to me that just in terms of how elections are

1022
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 1: conducted globally, and again I'm in favor of many of

1023
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,280
Speaker 1: these sort of election reforms that have been proposed. For example,

1024
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 1: voter I d I think it's kind of silly to

1025
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:42,439
Speaker 1: argue that you shouldn't have to show idea when you vote.

1026
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 1: But do I think that we are at high risk

1027
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 1: in the United States a full scale national elections with

1028
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty million voters being stolen, and then

1029
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: that the the elective leadership is then fundamentally illegitimate, which

1030
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 1: leaves you with no choice, presumably but to go to

1031
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,839
Speaker 1: the mattresses, which is what you don't want. That sort

1032
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: of language I think is really ray and I.

1033
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 2: Don't see it. But back to the point you were

1034
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 2: making earlier about the aggregate. We're talking about a few

1035
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 2: thousand votes here and there that ultimately determine that election

1036
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 2: for the nation on the basis of the electoral map.

1037
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 2: So I think it's more prone to concern than you may.

1038
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 1: Suggest specific problems that we can actually agree on the

1039
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 1: specifical I'm.

1040
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 2: With you, and that's why I'm calling it out now

1041
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 2: and I've been I try to provide evidence to back

1042
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 2: up my point as it relates to the Department of

1043
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:29,880
Speaker 2: Justice and how it gets weaponized. And I've seen it

1044
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 2: from my party as well, sure as hell's seen it

1045
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 2: from Trump's part. Some perspective what they try to do

1046
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 2: with the bord tag teams the day of the election

1047
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 2: here under Prop fifty, where they send folks out and

1048
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 2: these guys are all dressed up to try to chill

1049
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 2: free expression and free speech on election day, where Trump

1050
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 2: tweets out that morning saying this is a rigged election.

1051
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 2: The fact that he's out there suggesting that all the

1052
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 2: vote by mail is illegal, and a bunch of immigrants,

1053
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 2: illegal immigrants are out there doing all of these things.

1054
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 2: You start stacking them, including trying to MiG term elections

1055
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 2: as it relates to changing maps and what he tried

1056
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,320
Speaker 2: to do on January sixth, Yeah, I start getting a

1057
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 2: little big one.

1058
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 1: I don't want to look about those things in together

1059
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 1: because I don't. But I think they're saying.

1060
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 2: They're not all the same, but they stacked together from

1061
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 2: my perspective, not one action to some total of all

1062
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 2: of those things, including sending out ice.

1063
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 1: But it is very target targets. Here's the thing, it's

1064
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:20,320
Speaker 1: very difficult to argue over intentions because now I'm in

1065
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 1: the business of mind reading, which I can't do. I

1066
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 1: can well, Joump's not.

1067
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:25,800
Speaker 2: He's telling you what he thinks.

1068
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 1: I know, and but he when he says what he thinks,

1069
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 1: all criticize. So for example, when he said twenty twenty

1070
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 1: was a rigged election, he said, you'll recall in twenty twenty.

1071
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 1: On the night of the election, he said I won

1072
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: before all the results were in. I came out before anybody.

1073
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: And I said, that's wrong. The election is not over yet,

1074
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 1: all the votes have not been counted, so so that

1075
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: so I tried to I try, and I think the

1076
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 1: responsible thing to do is and I don't always do this,

1077
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 1: but I think that the responsible thing to do is

1078
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 1: to try and hone in on the specific behavior. So

1079
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 1: you know, you mentioned that it would be election rigging.

1080
00:46:57,520 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: You know, if President Trump is pushing for jerrymandering and

1081
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 1: in Indiana, I don't think that's election rigging. I don't

1082
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: think it's election rigging when you jerrymander in California. I

1083
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 1: think that is a long practice part of American politics.

1084
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 1: And I don't think that you did anything wrong actually

1085
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 1: in pushing fort in California, as much as it does

1086
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,359
Speaker 1: not benefit the party that I tend to vote for

1087
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 1: and of whom i'm a member of which i'm a member.

1088
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 1: So you know, when the general tenor and this is

1089
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:22,759
Speaker 1: what I see in democraphic, in democratic crises that you

1090
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 1: see around the world, one of the things that I

1091
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 1: see is both sides saying if the other side wins,

1092
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: it was Ray.

1093
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm with you on that, though I want to

1094
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,239
Speaker 2: make a double down on being crystal clear. I can't

1095
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 2: stand that anymore than you can stand that. I couldn't

1096
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:37,280
Speaker 2: agree with you more. I'm concerned about the inputs between

1097
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 2: now in twenty twenty eight, including concerned about folks that

1098
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 2: you know well, Steve Bannon and others saying there'll be

1099
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:46,839
Speaker 2: a third Trump term. The fact that I was in.

1100
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 1: The he's totally full of shit. And by the way,

1101
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 1: I think that people should stop giving Steve attention for

1102
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: saying things that are complete horseship, and.

1103
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,959
Speaker 2: I appreciate that. But should I give attention to Donald Trump?

1104
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 2: When I sat there in the Oval office for ninety

1105
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,919
Speaker 2: minutes and he tells me to turn around and there's

1106
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 2: a picture on the wall or painting on the wall

1107
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 2: of FDR and I look at him and I smiled,

1108
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 2: and he goes, I said, oh, here's the third term.

1109
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 2: He goes, what about four terms? Should I take him seriously?

1110
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 1: Okay? Soorry?

1111
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 2: I take him literally? Will I? Will? I don't know.

1112
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 1: I'm just a question, you know, and my my general

1113
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 1: the president and my general answer to this is if

1114
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 1: we've watched Donald Trump for ten years, ten years and

1115
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 1: we're still doing the thing where we all take him

1116
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 1: explicitly literally, I think that did so people has Okay,

1117
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 1: it turns out should But you know, one of the

1118
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 1: things that I remember I would get this critique about

1119
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 1: President Trump a lot, is President Trump, who, as I've

1120
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: said multiple times on his on his epitaph, it will

1121
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 1: it will read forty fifth and forty seven presidents of

1122
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 1: the United States. He said, a lot of shit, you know,

1123
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:44,279
Speaker 1: like the the thing that I.

1124
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 2: I take my presidents a little more seriously.

1125
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 1: I don't see I don't think you do. And this

1126
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:50,839
Speaker 1: is this is the thing where I really, I really

1127
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 1: doubt it. I see a lot of people who will

1128
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 1: Trump will will fire off a random tweet and everybody

1129
00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 1: kind of laughs because it's President Trump. If I'm to

1130
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 1: pretend that that is coming from the same thought process

1131
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 1: as whatever comes from Joe Biden's press office, which went

1132
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: through seven layers and maybe not the president very different,

1133
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 1: then I'm not gonna I'm not gonna pretend that's the

1134
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: same thing, because I'm not an idiot, you know.

1135
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 2: Side look, and by the way, I could not agree

1136
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 2: the more. And that's I think reflected in the humor

1137
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 2: I'm trying to put back in on my social idiot.

1138
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 1: And actually, I think it's a problem for you because

1139
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: I think that, frankly, the stuff that you're doing is

1140
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: more thought out than the stuff that President Trump does.

1141
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:26,359
Speaker 1: Meaning I think the President Trump is waking up at

1142
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 1: three in the morning if you want to sleep at all,

1143
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 1: and he's firing off stuff on truth social right, and

1144
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 1: so am I supposed to take that as seriously as

1145
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 1: you in a methodical fashion and saying, you know what,

1146
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 1: I'm going to prank him back. And I think that

1147
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 1: people on you know, people who are your supporters, do

1148
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,319
Speaker 1: take you in that way more literally then they would

1149
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 1: be apt to take president.

1150
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 2: I think, I mean, a lot of my support has

1151
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 2: been offended by by what we're trying to do. But

1152
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,320
Speaker 2: but no, look and and a lot I think appreciate

1153
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 2: the humor that we bring to it, and I do

1154
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 2: think it. I think it's reflected, and I think a

1155
00:49:57,680 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 2: sense of agreement that we have in that respect a

1156
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 2: really so what Trump puts out all the time.

1157
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:02,800
Speaker 1: But like, if you win the twenty twenty eight election,

1158
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: I will call you presidents of the United States, right

1159
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 1: because that election will be legitimate.

1160
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 2: And if it's I was, you know, as an American

1161
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 2: called Donald Trump president ed States, mister president, I mean,

1162
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,400
Speaker 2: of course, And so I'm with you on that, But

1163
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 2: that doesn't suggest that I believe for a second, and

1164
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 2: you haven't respectfully convinced me that I'm wrong or errant

1165
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 2: that he won't do everything in his power to manipulate

1166
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 2: the outcome. Do I expect. I think it's time of life.

1167
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,359
Speaker 2: If he was twenty years younger, I absolutely believe he'd

1168
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 2: run for a third term. But at time of life

1169
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 2: suggests that that's not going to be the case. But

1170
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 2: I do think he's going to try hard.

1171
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 1: This also implicated that you see the reason I'm concerned

1172
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 1: about this because it also implicates the guardrails. So, as

1173
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 1: you've talked about in your state, there's a lot of gridlock,

1174
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 1: right There are a lot of various moving parts when

1175
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: you're trying to get something done at the state level.

1176
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 1: You've got local governments that can impede you. You've got

1177
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 1: a legislature that can say no to you. You've got

1178
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: a bunch of be judiciary that will that will tell

1179
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:04,759
Speaker 1: you no in in certain areas. You know, there's there's

1180
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 1: a ruling a couple of weeks ago that I that

1181
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 1: I strongly agree with from the judiciary with regard to,

1182
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 1: for example, school districts and what they can and should

1183
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:13,439
Speaker 1: tell parents about about their kids.

1184
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 2: That'll get but but you know what decision, Yeah, but

1185
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 2: when when it when it comes to you know what

1186
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 2: President Trump is or is not trying to do.

1187
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 1: The problem is when we say that he will try

1188
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,240
Speaker 1: to he will try to steal iss will the election

1189
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,359
Speaker 1: be stolen? That relies now on a an opinion about,

1190
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: for example, the Supreme Court of the United States, or

1191
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 1: an opinion about the various state legislatures and courts, and

1192
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 1: and so now you're not just implicating what President Trump

1193
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,719
Speaker 1: might try to do, You're now implicating pretty much every

1194
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 1: major institution that is electoral in nature.

1195
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:45,799
Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot of evidence, and I know both

1196
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 2: sides have argued a lot of evidence as relates the

1197
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 2: weaponization justice and the bias that's expressed in a lot

1198
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:56,319
Speaker 2: of these federal judicial opinions. And and it's, uh, yeah,

1199
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 2: it's a little arming. I mean, as a father of

1200
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 2: a judge who revers thes and you know, as someone

1201
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 2: that I was very proud my father may have been

1202
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 2: accused of being an activist judge, but many occasions call

1203
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 2: in balls and strikes, and you know, I revere that

1204
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 2: sense of justice. That's that's where justice is found with

1205
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 2: an objective analysis. But no, I do worry about the

1206
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,320
Speaker 2: Supreme Court. You may not. I'm concerned about the Supreme

1207
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 2: Court of the United States. I'm concerned about what Donald

1208
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 2: Trump did after January sixth, the degree that he went

1209
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 2: to ultimately try to stay in office. Yes, I'm concerned

1210
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:30,919
Speaker 2: about the actions he's taken, not any one of them

1211
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:35,240
Speaker 2: from the midterm redistricting, but the sum total of many

1212
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 2: of them. And yes, I'm concerned. If we don't take

1213
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 2: back the House of Representatives and we have no oversight

1214
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:42,759
Speaker 2: and we continue to have the Supine Congress, we may

1215
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 2: not have a country that we recognize. I really believe

1216
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:45,799
Speaker 2: that I do.

1217
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 1: And it's fine to believe all of those things. I

1218
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 1: will say that to articulate them as though they are

1219
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 1: all of equal levels of alarm, or that the sum

1220
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 1: total of them is that if we don't win the

1221
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 1: next election, the country's over, which again is something that

1222
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 1: you hear very often from the right too. Yeah. I

1223
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 1: think that that sort of alarmism is quite bad for

1224
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 1: American politics. And I don't think that anyone who's in

1225
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 1: electoral politics actually believes that, because I promise you that

1226
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 1: if a Republican wins in twenty twenty eight, a Democrat

1227
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 1: will then run in twenty thirty two, and if the

1228
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: reverse is true, the same thing will happen.

1229
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:16,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with that. Look, I do. I just

1230
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 2: the level, and I.

1231
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:19,479
Speaker 1: Think the American people should know that because it gives

1232
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 1: them a sense Okay, I didn't win this time, but

1233
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 1: I might win next time. And once American people start

1234
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 1: to believe they can never win or their side is

1235
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:26,720
Speaker 1: always cut out.

1236
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,319
Speaker 2: Then that's what you're starting to get. I despaired of

1237
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 2: what you're saying. What you're saying, I completely concur with.

1238
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 2: I just I have a different level of anxiety based

1239
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 2: upon my own direct experience, not just indirect, direct experience

1240
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:42,680
Speaker 2: with Donald Trump, my concern about the rule of law,

1241
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 2: this notion of co equal branch government. In your book,

1242
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,320
Speaker 2: you talk about sort of the fundamental Judeo Christian values

1243
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:50,880
Speaker 2: in this country with the best the Greek democracy. I

1244
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:51,799
Speaker 2: worry about.

1245
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 1: Those classes are fab checks and balances too. Yeah, and

1246
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 1: by the way, I think that the best way to

1247
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 1: do that actually, and this benefit is governor of the

1248
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 1: state is devolution of more authority back down to the

1249
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,240
Speaker 1: state's evolution, more governmental authority back down to the local levels,

1250
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 1: and more robust checks and balances.

1251
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 2: Your lips to God in the White House's ears. Yeah,

1252
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 2: I'm a little and I hope you remember that this

1253
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 2: notion of federalism and Tenth Amendment. Yeah, I remember, I remember,

1254
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 2: you know, the Red States. We're arguing for that during

1255
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 2: those obomba years. God bless you. No back to your

1256
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:21,799
Speaker 2: being more consistent, and I respect that, and that's why

1257
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:24,480
Speaker 2: we're here, and I respect you, and I appreciate this

1258
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:27,800
Speaker 2: opportunity to engage even though obviously we have fundamental disagreements

1259
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:29,719
Speaker 2: on a lot of these issues. Maybe not fundamental, just

1260
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 2: disagreements on a lot of these issues. Let me go

1261
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:34,480
Speaker 2: back to some of the disagreements. And I don't want

1262
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:37,440
Speaker 2: to paint too much and color this in because as

1263
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:40,719
Speaker 2: a Democrat it's in my interest to do so. But

1264
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 2: you got a lot of attention for going recently to

1265
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 2: America Fest turning Point USA. You made a terrible decision

1266
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 2: of being the first speaker. That's just me saying editorially, what.

1267
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:55,759
Speaker 1: The he that is not? That is not my decision. Right.

1268
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 1: They invited me, they gave me a lot. That's just

1269
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 1: your luck because then every speaker can come on and

1270
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:02,439
Speaker 1: that's you know, I got to say what I wanted

1271
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:04,919
Speaker 1: to say, and the picture what did you say?

1272
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 2: So people tuning in don't know what the hell we're

1273
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 2: talking about you went in and a pretty somber time.

1274
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 2: You know, Charlie's widow was there. He had a lot

1275
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 2: of you know, the sort of branded celebrities in the right,

1276
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:22,360
Speaker 2: and Candace Owens was there and not there but became

1277
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 2: part of the conversation, part of the conversation, and Bannon

1278
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,440
Speaker 2: and Megan Kelly, O, there's so many others, uh, certainly

1279
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 2: Tucker Carlson. So give a sense what did you say

1280
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:32,920
Speaker 2: and why did you say it, and why did you

1281
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:34,839
Speaker 2: choose that moment to say it.

1282
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:37,399
Speaker 1: So the reason that I chose the moment to say

1283
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 1: it is that Candice Owens, who has some issues of

1284
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 1: her own, she has been saying since Charlie's death that

1285
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 1: there was effectively a conspiracy to kill him. She's implicated

1286
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:51,320
Speaker 1: pretty much everybody ranging from believe it or not, French

1287
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: intelligence to the Israelis, to various friends and family members

1288
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 1: possibly of Charlie in his work. And there have been

1289
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:04,600
Speaker 1: an enormous number of people in the influencer space on

1290
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 1: the right who have gone along with this, who have

1291
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:09,399
Speaker 1: massaged it, pretended not to notice it, tried to defend her,

1292
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 1: tried to pretend that it was an aspect of that

1293
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 1: questioning her was an aspect of free speech, which of

1294
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:16,759
Speaker 1: course was a violation of free speech, rather which of

1295
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 1: course it isn't you know, criticism is not a violation

1296
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:20,759
Speaker 1: of free speech. It's a form of free speech. And

1297
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,239
Speaker 1: so I got up on stage and I basically gave

1298
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:27,840
Speaker 1: a speech saying our responsibility as people with influence in

1299
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 1: the public space, we have some responsibilities, and those responsibilities

1300
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:35,239
Speaker 1: include truth above all. We ought to give you. We

1301
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:36,760
Speaker 1: ought to be clear about what we believe. We should

1302
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,360
Speaker 1: not hide the ball. We should not allow quote unquote

1303
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:41,959
Speaker 1: friendship to trump what is true. Just because you're friends

1304
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:44,440
Speaker 1: with someone does not alleviate the responsibility for you to

1305
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 1: say when they're doing something that is wrong or immoral.

1306
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:49,880
Speaker 1: We should not engage an audience capture. Just because our

1307
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:51,799
Speaker 1: audience wants us to say a thing doesn't mean that

1308
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:55,800
Speaker 1: we ought to say it. And we ought to ensure

1309
00:56:56,280 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 1: that we are held responsible for the things that we

1310
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 1: say and also the people that we have on and

1311
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:04,880
Speaker 1: how we question those people. So, of course, anybody has

1312
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:07,239
Speaker 1: the right to have anybody on their show who they want,

1313
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 1: and then they should treat those people how they want

1314
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:11,279
Speaker 1: to treat those people. I mean, if if I were

1315
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:13,359
Speaker 1: to have on somebody who's, you know, in a deeply

1316
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 1: adversarial position. I think what's great about this conversations you

1317
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 1: can see how adversarial we are with regard to some

1318
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:19,480
Speaker 1: of our positions, but at the same time still have

1319
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 1: the discussion. You know, if you are if you are

1320
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 1: going to have on, for example, as Tucker Carlson did,

1321
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 1: Nick Flentes, who is a self stated Nazi apologist, and

1322
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 1: then you're going to treat him with kid gloves, then

1323
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 1: you ought to be held responsible for that in the

1324
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 1: court of public opinion. And if we as influencers do

1325
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 1: not do that job, if we if we lie to you,

1326
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 1: if we fibb to you, if we make predictions which

1327
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 1: we are then not held responsible for, if we hide

1328
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 1: behind quote unquote just asking questions. This is one of

1329
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:48,800
Speaker 1: my buggaboos. I hate it. You hear this a lot

1330
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 1: in the influencer space, mostly on the right of someone

1331
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 1: on the left as well, this sort of you know,

1332
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 1: I'm not putting out a theory, I'm just asking questions. Well,

1333
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 1: there's a difference between seeking answers and just asking questions.

1334
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 1: Seeking answers, that's what questions are for. It's to get

1335
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:04,960
Speaker 1: better information, more clarification. You know, I actould have a

1336
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,200
Speaker 1: better idea after the question of the answer than I

1337
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 1: did before. Just asking questions is usually a guy's for

1338
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 1: willful ignorance and for positing a theory without having to

1339
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:16,480
Speaker 1: carry the responsibility for positing that theory. So if I said,

1340
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 1: you know, I'm just asking questions about whether you have

1341
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:22,240
Speaker 1: peculiar sexual proclivities, and I'm having evidence, I'm just asking

1342
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 1: the question, and then you say, well that what you

1343
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 1: were said, even coming from listen, I'm just asking questions.

1344
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:29,600
Speaker 1: I'm not asking questions. I'm obviously attempting to impute something

1345
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 1: to you. And so this is what this speech was about.

1346
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:35,360
Speaker 1: I named names in it. I mentioned I mentioned Tucker Carlson.

1347
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:37,520
Speaker 1: I mentioned Megan Kelly, who had sort of gone out

1348
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 1: of her way to massage Candice Owens in her pursuit

1349
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 1: of bizarre conspiracy theories about about Erica and Charlie's murder.

1350
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:49,040
Speaker 1: I mentioned Steve because I think Steve has been doing

1351
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 1: many of the same things. And so that was that

1352
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 1: was the speech at antheisy.

1353
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:56,160
Speaker 2: And that you felt it was necessary to name names

1354
00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 2: as opposed to imply he just felt it was important.

1355
00:58:58,040 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 1: Because because I think that I think that people should

1356
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 1: know exactly who they are listening to, particularly since they

1357
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 1: were going to hear from some of those people at

1358
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 1: the same event. And so I thought that people should,

1359
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 1: you know, be forewarned about the people they are going

1360
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:10,040
Speaker 1: to hear about. Then they can make their own decisions

1361
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 1: and determined whether my assessment of those personalities is accurate

1362
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 1: or inaccurate.

1363
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 2: Uh. And the reaction was exactly as you anticipated.

1364
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 1: I think that the reaction in the in the in

1365
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:23,760
Speaker 1: the room was I think overwhelming because a lot of

1366
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:25,880
Speaker 1: a lot of people were very upset that people had

1367
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:29,640
Speaker 1: been saying this about Charlie's murder, which again was carried

1368
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:35,080
Speaker 1: out by all available evidence by a person motivated by

1369
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:40,919
Speaker 1: hatred of Charlie's position on transgender issues in particular. And

1370
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 1: you know, all the evidence points to Tyler Robinson as

1371
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:44,960
Speaker 1: being the person who shot Charlie Kirk. And so I

1372
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:46,320
Speaker 1: think that a lot of people in the audience were

1373
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 1: deeply offended and upset, correctly so, at the kind of

1374
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:53,439
Speaker 1: specious conspiracy conspiracy theories that are promoted by this group,

1375
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 1: by the group of folks, The sort of blowback that

1376
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:59,440
Speaker 1: came afterward was really interesting. You know, there are a

1377
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 1: lot of people who obviously we're very upset, and many

1378
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 1: of the people who had named I'm not surprised came

1379
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 1: back and you know, fired back. I will say that

1380
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 1: I don't think any of them actually argued with the

1381
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 1: point that I was making. They seem to make collateral attacks,

1382
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:14,760
Speaker 1: imputing intents to me, suggesting that my speech had something

1383
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 1: to do with Isral, which is funny since I didn't

1384
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:19,400
Speaker 1: mention Israel one time in the entire speech, and I

1385
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 1: found that sort of bizarre. And then obviously you've seen,

1386
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 1: you know, sort of the influencer war is going on.

1387
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 1: But the whole point that I was making is here's

1388
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,040
Speaker 1: a principle. Either to go hold the principle or you

1389
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:30,160
Speaker 1: don't up hould the principle. If you don't uphold the principle,

1390
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call you out for not upholding the principle.

1391
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:34,680
Speaker 1: And it really is quite simple. It's not about friendship,

1392
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 1: it's not about whether we go fishing together. None of

1393
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:40,840
Speaker 1: that has anything to do with the principle that's at stake,

1394
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 1: because if we want to have an honest discussion with

1395
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 1: one another, then we actually should be honest about the

1396
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 1: principles that we hold and if we disagree, we disagree,

1397
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:49,280
Speaker 1: but clarity before agreement. As my friend Donis Prager says.

1398
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:51,080
Speaker 2: What were you close with Charlie?

1399
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:53,360
Speaker 1: I don't want to pretend that we were best friends

1400
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:54,960
Speaker 1: or anything. One of the things I said in the

1401
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 1: speech is I think that it's pretty rare actually in

1402
01:00:57,080 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 1: politics for people say that they're friends in politics, these

1403
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 1: are usually not well, you're going and hanging out with

1404
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:03,920
Speaker 1: on the weevenings. It's not real, okay, Like whenever you

1405
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:07,240
Speaker 1: hear politicians, oh, we're best for them, it's such bullshit.

1406
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, bullshit. There may be a couple of exceptions.

1407
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 1: They're rare, okay. The reality is that they are business

1408
01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 1: colleagues and associates in the same way that most people

1409
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:18,280
Speaker 1: have business colleagues and associates that they see at the office.

1410
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:20,200
Speaker 1: We see each other rare, more rarely than you probably

1411
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 1: see your business colleagues or associates at the office.

1412
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:25,560
Speaker 2: You respected how he organized on the campus level. Yeah,

1413
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:28,080
Speaker 2: I mean, Charlie, all the echoes of things you were doing.

1414
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:32,120
Speaker 1: Charlie was incredibly gifted as an organizer. I won't say

1415
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:34,680
Speaker 1: that we agreed on everything politically, because clearly we didn't.

1416
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:38,200
Speaker 1: But I think that you know Charlie as a as

1417
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 1: a person who was willing to go into fraud spaces obviously,

1418
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 1: and he was killed doing this, and to and to

1419
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:47,600
Speaker 1: speak his principles to people who disagreed and do so

1420
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 1: in what I think overwhelmingly was sort of an honest

1421
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:52,400
Speaker 1: and decent fashion. I think that was a very good thing.

1422
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 2: What Tucker Carlson in you history? Do you?

1423
01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:58,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not sure that we have a history

1424
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:02,240
Speaker 1: so much as Tucker seems to object to my politics

1425
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:02,920
Speaker 1: and I object to his.

1426
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:03,480
Speaker 2: Uh.

1427
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 1: I think Tucker tries to personalize this. I think Megan

1428
01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:09,560
Speaker 1: has tried to personalize this. I don't believe in personalizing

1429
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 1: these things. I was asked by somebody, you know, would

1430
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:15,160
Speaker 1: Tucker and I ever before I'd go fishing with Tucker.

1431
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 1: I don't care. I mean, that doesn't matter to me.

1432
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:19,840
Speaker 1: The question is his principles and the things that that

1433
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 1: he says. I think that Tucker. I gave a speech

1434
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 1: right before TPUs a Heritage Foundation where I pointed out

1435
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:27,000
Speaker 1: that the Tucker is not an advocate for conservatism in

1436
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:29,240
Speaker 1: any way that I can identify conservatism. He is he's

1437
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:32,520
Speaker 1: not in favor of a more limited government of checks

1438
01:02:32,560 --> 01:02:35,320
Speaker 1: and balances. He's come out in favor of feudalism fairly recently.

1439
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:40,240
Speaker 1: He's not in favor of traditional institutions. He seems to

1440
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:42,919
Speaker 1: think that they have lost their way. He is, he's

1441
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:45,240
Speaker 1: in favor of what appears to me a sort of

1442
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:47,960
Speaker 1: horseshoe theory. No, I'm Chomsky foreign policy, where America is

1443
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:50,800
Speaker 1: always the bad actor in the world. And so I

1444
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:56,920
Speaker 1: think I read surprised, and I think that you know

1445
01:02:56,960 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 1: when when the biggest thing that the Tucker engages in

1446
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 1: and the just asking questions, which which he's very fond of,

1447
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:04,720
Speaker 1: is And this is something again that is a both

1448
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:08,480
Speaker 1: sides problem, and that is a general conspiracism about the world.

1449
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:11,600
Speaker 1: The worst thing happening in our politics is a grievance

1450
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 1: based politics that is being set up by actors on

1451
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:17,880
Speaker 1: both sides, which basically says, the failures in your life

1452
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:21,480
Speaker 1: are generally speaking, not your fault. You have no responsibility

1453
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:23,360
Speaker 1: for them, and you need to and you need to

1454
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 1: shift the burden of your own responsibility over to systems.

1455
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:28,960
Speaker 1: And so those systems could be the free market is

1456
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:33,200
Speaker 1: responsible for your failures, or the systems of history are

1457
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:37,200
Speaker 1: responsible for your failures. And listen, there are real conspiracies

1458
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:40,200
Speaker 1: out there. They exist and usually can provide evidence for them.

1459
01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:42,720
Speaker 1: That's the difference between a conspiracy and a conspiracy theory.

1460
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:46,200
Speaker 1: But if they you're going theory is that the reason

1461
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:48,080
Speaker 1: that you are lacking in life is because the most

1462
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:50,360
Speaker 1: successful people in your society have rigged the system on

1463
01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 1: their own behalf, and therefore they must be brought low

1464
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:55,840
Speaker 1: in order for you to succeed. First, you need to

1465
01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:59,439
Speaker 1: show me that that's actually evidentiarily the case. You can't

1466
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:02,560
Speaker 1: just make that claim and then abdicate all responsibility for

1467
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:04,920
Speaker 1: doing the right things in your own life. And the

1468
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:07,680
Speaker 1: number one message that I would that I constantly am

1469
01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:10,240
Speaker 1: trying to give to what I would now call young people,

1470
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:12,840
Speaker 1: since you know I'm of the older generation now and

1471
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:17,000
Speaker 1: I exactly is get off your ass and do the thing.

1472
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:19,360
Speaker 1: I hear people complaining I can't get married. It's just

1473
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:20,720
Speaker 1: so hard to get married, and no one can get

1474
01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:23,800
Speaker 1: married these days. Bullshit. I'm sorry, that's not true. You

1475
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:26,360
Speaker 1: absolutely can find someone in You absolutely can get married.

1476
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:28,400
Speaker 1: Your grandparents are way poorer than you, and they got

1477
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:31,080
Speaker 1: married and they had more kids. Hey, this is just nonsense.

1478
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:34,520
Speaker 1: You are the richest, most privileged people in the history

1479
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:36,960
Speaker 1: of the world living in the United States today. Just

1480
01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:39,840
Speaker 1: relatively speaking, doesn't mean everything's perfect because I'm not comparing

1481
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:42,680
Speaker 1: it to perfect. You can't compare anything in life to perfect.

1482
01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:45,520
Speaker 1: What you can say is that if you are sitting

1483
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:48,080
Speaker 1: around in a country that has a GDP per capital

1484
01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:51,680
Speaker 1: among the highest on planet Earth, and open jobs and

1485
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:53,800
Speaker 1: the ability to move to those open jobs, and the

1486
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:55,560
Speaker 1: ability to vote on your leaders, and I get shot

1487
01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:56,920
Speaker 1: in the streets like people are getting shot in the

1488
01:04:56,920 --> 01:04:59,960
Speaker 1: streets in Iran, you should consider yourself pretty damned fortune.

1489
01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:01,800
Speaker 1: And maybe you should start with what can I do

1490
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:04,200
Speaker 1: to make my life better today before you figure that

1491
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:05,920
Speaker 1: it's the system. Now, that doesn't mean they're on problems

1492
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:08,000
Speaker 1: with the system. And this is why I like these conversations.

1493
01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:09,920
Speaker 1: And we can get very specific about policy and how

1494
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:12,080
Speaker 1: we fix a policy. So it's to make it easier.

1495
01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:14,760
Speaker 1: But I think that the biggest the American dream is

1496
01:05:15,160 --> 01:05:17,960
Speaker 1: you can make it. You can right, get government out

1497
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:19,800
Speaker 1: of your way, get everybody out of your way, Let

1498
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:23,600
Speaker 1: let people succeed. And we do need, obviously a functional

1499
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:25,960
Speaker 1: social fabric, right which is why you've seen a lot

1500
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:29,320
Speaker 1: of the institutions, like I would say churches, synagogues break down.

1501
01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:31,800
Speaker 1: That social fabric breaking down is a massive problem because

1502
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:34,320
Speaker 1: that's your safety net when family breaks down, that's your

1503
01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:37,400
Speaker 1: supportive safety net for when for when things go wrong.

1504
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:39,280
Speaker 1: We need to, we need to, you know, on a

1505
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:43,280
Speaker 1: social level, help restore all of that. But the desire

1506
01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:45,920
Speaker 1: by politicians to say I alone can fix, which is

1507
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:48,960
Speaker 1: something President Trump said but has also been said by

1508
01:05:49,120 --> 01:05:51,640
Speaker 1: you know a lot of that Zarmmdani talking about the

1509
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:53,959
Speaker 1: warm embrace of collectivism, which is insane by.

1510
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:56,960
Speaker 2: The way nature of campaigns. The campaign promises you may

1511
01:05:57,080 --> 01:06:00,240
Speaker 2: on day one, right on day one and the crane

1512
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:01,000
Speaker 2: Russian War.

1513
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:03,320
Speaker 1: Day one, or give me more power, and I will

1514
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:05,880
Speaker 1: solve the affordability crisis. Or give me more power and

1515
01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:08,360
Speaker 1: I will ensure that you have a good paying job

1516
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:09,880
Speaker 1: and you can buy a house on a single income

1517
01:06:09,920 --> 01:06:12,280
Speaker 1: the way that your grandfather could in nineteen fifty two.

1518
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:14,520
Speaker 1: And I mean, first of all, let's just be real,

1519
01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:17,800
Speaker 1: the heusard grandpa was buying in nineteen fifty two, you

1520
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 1: wouldn't want to live in. They're kind of crappy, Okay,

1521
01:06:20,360 --> 01:06:21,720
Speaker 1: it was like a brick It was like a brick

1522
01:06:21,800 --> 01:06:24,280
Speaker 1: box in Detroit, and your grandpa was working on a

1523
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:28,720
Speaker 1: ford line riveting. Okay, now you're not how many people

1524
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:30,720
Speaker 1: are riveting today? The answer is none. The machines are

1525
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:34,760
Speaker 1: doing the riveting. Right. We should recognize the reality of

1526
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:37,600
Speaker 1: our situation as opposed to creating either a false promise

1527
01:06:37,640 --> 01:06:41,080
Speaker 1: of utopia or a false utopian past that wasn't really

1528
01:06:41,120 --> 01:06:43,760
Speaker 1: existing in nineteen fifty two. The reason the United States,

1529
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:45,320
Speaker 1: the reason we in the United States were able to

1530
01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 1: survive on one on a one parent's income, two tax

1531
01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:53,840
Speaker 1: versus one hundred and four, it's because it's because the

1532
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:56,880
Speaker 1: entire rest of the world did not. It had been destroyed.

1533
01:06:56,920 --> 01:06:59,000
Speaker 1: Every place on Earth had been destroyed. As of nineteen

1534
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:01,840
Speaker 1: fifty two. United States was basically left untouched in the

1535
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:04,959
Speaker 1: homeland by World War two, and literally every place else

1536
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:07,080
Speaker 1: had been destroyed. And so that was all in export

1537
01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:08,680
Speaker 1: market for the United States. So much so we had

1538
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 1: to prop up our export markets by doing things like

1539
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:12,520
Speaker 1: the Marshall Plan so people would actually have money to

1540
01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:15,200
Speaker 1: buy things. Right, And then it turns out that, you know,

1541
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:17,560
Speaker 1: by the nineteen sixties, reality was setting in many of

1542
01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:20,080
Speaker 1: the union contracts that had been negotiated weren't sustainable, and

1543
01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:22,080
Speaker 1: we were being out competed by foreign sources. You know,

1544
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:25,640
Speaker 1: like let's just again, ignorance of sort of economic history

1545
01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:28,040
Speaker 1: and how people have actually lived throughout history leads to,

1546
01:07:28,360 --> 01:07:30,200
Speaker 1: I think, on the right of nostalgia for an economic

1547
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:32,520
Speaker 1: time that didn't exist, and on the left to a

1548
01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:35,240
Speaker 1: sort of utopianism about what is possible that is also

1549
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:37,560
Speaker 1: not possible. And I think that we should start from

1550
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:40,840
Speaker 1: a position in the United States of gratitude and duty

1551
01:07:41,240 --> 01:07:44,440
Speaker 1: and hard work and virtue and recognition that we live

1552
01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:46,520
Speaker 1: in a free country where the vast majority of decisions

1553
01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:49,080
Speaker 1: are your own. And then if you and then let's

1554
01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:50,760
Speaker 1: and then let's seal what the problems.

1555
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:52,760
Speaker 2: And you laid all this out on line. Since Scavengers

1556
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:56,600
Speaker 2: in detailed with historic context and traveled the globe, I mean,

1557
01:07:56,640 --> 01:08:00,800
Speaker 2: each chapter begins in different places of place from you know, London,

1558
01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:04,720
Speaker 2: Oxford and Aaron, Poland. Which is interesting that that section

1559
01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:06,560
Speaker 2: with Elon Musk and others. But let me ask just

1560
01:08:06,560 --> 01:08:08,960
Speaker 2: a little bit. It's interesting the politics and nostalgia and

1561
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:10,880
Speaker 2: I tried to paint this forgive me keep going back

1562
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:12,320
Speaker 2: to the state of the state I just gave. But

1563
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:14,640
Speaker 2: we talked about the politics in nostalgia, try to put

1564
01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:18,000
Speaker 2: America in reverse, but try of selling this notion of

1565
01:08:18,360 --> 01:08:25,160
Speaker 2: this utopian notion. And it's interesting you cast some critique

1566
01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:26,760
Speaker 2: not just on the right, but also on the left

1567
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:28,720
Speaker 2: in that respect. And I imagine you weren't a big

1568
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:31,920
Speaker 2: fan of Elizabeth Warren's speech yesterday. No, on the basis

1569
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:32,880
Speaker 2: of what you just said.

1570
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:35,880
Speaker 1: But Elizabeth Horne was much more interesting when she was

1571
01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:37,760
Speaker 1: a professor at Harvard Law. I was there at the time,

1572
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:39,519
Speaker 1: and she's writing The Two Income Trap, which was a

1573
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:40,479
Speaker 1: much more interesting book.

1574
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:44,479
Speaker 2: Interesting, let me just talk about it. And I appreciate

1575
01:08:44,479 --> 01:08:47,479
Speaker 2: the trap of promises being promoted in politics and the

1576
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:50,920
Speaker 2: nature of politics both political parties and Trump sort of

1577
01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:54,559
Speaker 2: trapped now on this affordability question. As we tape this,

1578
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:59,320
Speaker 2: he's in Michigan. He's part of this affordability tour you've

1579
01:08:59,360 --> 01:09:03,240
Speaker 2: been in and again just to your credit, calling balls

1580
01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:06,439
Speaker 2: and strikes. You know, it goes back even your Brightbart days,

1581
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:08,920
Speaker 2: as you had some issues with the early aspects of

1582
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:10,639
Speaker 2: Trump in terms of this sort of just the character

1583
01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:13,040
Speaker 2: personality issues. But you've been a big supporter of him.

1584
01:09:13,040 --> 01:09:15,000
Speaker 1: More broadly, Yeah, I did not vote for either candidate

1585
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:17,200
Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen. I voted for a President Trump in

1586
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:20,000
Speaker 1: twenty twenty and I actually campaigned on behalf of a

1587
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:22,559
Speaker 1: bunch of centate candidates and and did some events for

1588
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:23,160
Speaker 1: President Trump.

1589
01:09:23,160 --> 01:09:26,040
Speaker 2: And you've been very forceful in your support of what

1590
01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:29,760
Speaker 2: he did in Venezuela. And I think more broadly, just

1591
01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:33,559
Speaker 2: in terms of looking at the picture across the across

1592
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:36,120
Speaker 2: the globe, but back here in the United States, it

1593
01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:39,240
Speaker 2: relates to tariff policy you've very critical of. You've been

1594
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:44,680
Speaker 2: critically tariff policy on other domestic issues. How do you

1595
01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:47,400
Speaker 2: score the first full year of Donald Trump?

1596
01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:49,680
Speaker 1: So I think that when it came, I think the

1597
01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 1: number one domestic issue for President Trump was closing the

1598
01:09:52,320 --> 01:09:54,720
Speaker 1: southern border A plus, right, I mean that I think

1599
01:09:54,800 --> 01:09:57,040
Speaker 1: put the law to the Democratic proposal that you needed

1600
01:09:57,080 --> 01:09:58,040
Speaker 1: comprehensive immigration.

1601
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:01,200
Speaker 2: You also acknowledged for about six months it was substantially

1602
01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:05,600
Speaker 2: eighty seven eighty ninety percent closed when Biden decided that he, ultimately,

1603
01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:08,479
Speaker 2: to your point, could do something about it, which they

1604
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:09,800
Speaker 2: suggested they couldn't.

1605
01:10:09,479 --> 01:10:12,640
Speaker 1: Right, And the fact that they basically lied about that

1606
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:14,479
Speaker 1: for several years, saying there's nothing we can do. We

1607
01:10:14,479 --> 01:10:16,639
Speaker 1: need congressional action in order to shut the southern border.

1608
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:21,360
Speaker 2: We have more areas of agreement on this. That's put

1609
01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:23,800
Speaker 2: almost foreigner national guard down on the border going back

1610
01:10:23,840 --> 01:10:27,040
Speaker 2: to twenty nineteen. So I've been pretty consistent on that basis,

1611
01:10:27,080 --> 01:10:29,360
Speaker 2: And of course, California I do absorb a lot of

1612
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:32,599
Speaker 2: that on our own with migrant facilities in three major counties,

1613
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:35,719
Speaker 2: five migrants that working for Jewish family services, Catholic charities

1614
01:10:35,720 --> 01:10:38,280
Speaker 2: that did God's work. But at the same time try

1615
01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:41,360
Speaker 2: to put a lid on what was, you know, an

1616
01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:43,439
Speaker 2: unacceptable commission.

1617
01:10:43,439 --> 01:10:45,760
Speaker 1: So that's that's that's a big win for presidents for sure,

1618
01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:47,479
Speaker 1: so much so that it's not even a top issue

1619
01:10:47,479 --> 01:10:48,160
Speaker 1: for voters anymore.

1620
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:49,519
Speaker 2: Well, he seems to forget about it.

1621
01:10:49,560 --> 01:10:51,240
Speaker 1: Well, I mean I don't think he's forgotten about it.

1622
01:10:51,240 --> 01:10:52,960
Speaker 1: I think that he made again. I think a lot

1623
01:10:52,960 --> 01:10:56,600
Speaker 1: of promises with regards to mass deportations that in practicality

1624
01:10:56,640 --> 01:10:59,200
Speaker 1: are probably not fulfillable. And what you see is, you know,

1625
01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:01,479
Speaker 1: Tom Homan, his orders are, who's being a little bit

1626
01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:02,439
Speaker 1: more meticulous about his.

1627
01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:05,200
Speaker 2: Life and word the temperance come from home and jeez, yeah,

1628
01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:06,679
Speaker 2: I know we're.

1629
01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:08,160
Speaker 1: Going to go out, We're going to go after criminal

1630
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:10,120
Speaker 1: illegal immigrants. Those are the people who are mostly going

1631
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:11,320
Speaker 1: to deploy resource.

1632
01:11:10,960 --> 01:11:11,439
Speaker 2: They said.

1633
01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:15,760
Speaker 1: And I think that overwhelmingly by the numbers that that

1634
01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:18,120
Speaker 1: has been the case as far as I'm aware. But

1635
01:11:18,400 --> 01:11:19,040
Speaker 1: when it.

1636
01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:22,320
Speaker 2: Comes to questionable but I appreciate but still.

1637
01:11:22,479 --> 01:11:24,400
Speaker 1: Different data on that As a general rule, I think

1638
01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:26,680
Speaker 1: that's a win for President Trump. Obviously, I agree with

1639
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:29,519
Speaker 1: the extension of the current tax rates and not allowing

1640
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:30,080
Speaker 1: them to rise.

1641
01:11:31,400 --> 01:11:32,920
Speaker 2: You don't agree with I mean, I hate to bring

1642
01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:34,800
Speaker 2: up Steve Banner. I mean this notion of a more

1643
01:11:34,840 --> 01:11:38,360
Speaker 2: progressive tax rate for corporations and the wealthiest among us,

1644
01:11:38,360 --> 01:11:38,840
Speaker 2: I mean no.

1645
01:11:38,760 --> 01:11:39,760
Speaker 1: I think it's a bunch of I think it's a

1646
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:41,479
Speaker 1: bunch of nonsense. And the reason I think that, yes,

1647
01:11:41,479 --> 01:11:42,680
Speaker 1: and the reason I think that it's a bunch of

1648
01:11:42,680 --> 01:11:45,920
Speaker 1: nonsense is because if because corporations are just legal entities,

1649
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:48,400
Speaker 1: those legal entities are comprised by people. If you tax

1650
01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:50,120
Speaker 1: a corporation, that is still money that in the end

1651
01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:52,120
Speaker 1: is coming away from the people who comprise the corporation.

1652
01:11:52,280 --> 01:11:55,320
Speaker 2: Sounding like Romney when you were covering them in with bridepart.

1653
01:11:54,920 --> 01:11:57,679
Speaker 1: Well, I mean that this is just like basic black

1654
01:11:57,720 --> 01:12:00,920
Speaker 1: letter econ one O one. Corporation doesn't like a magical

1655
01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:03,320
Speaker 1: existence or whereby it hires people. It's not how there's

1656
01:12:03,479 --> 01:12:05,360
Speaker 1: there are people who make those decisions. People get paid

1657
01:12:05,360 --> 01:12:07,240
Speaker 1: by the corporation. Most people in the country are getting

1658
01:12:07,240 --> 01:12:07,639
Speaker 1: a paycheck.

1659
01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:09,799
Speaker 2: You know, we have established you like the big beautiful

1660
01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:11,840
Speaker 2: bill is where they the tax structure. You don't give

1661
01:12:11,840 --> 01:12:13,719
Speaker 2: a damn about debt, But that's another conversation.

1662
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:15,800
Speaker 1: No, I definitely give a damn about debt, but I.

1663
01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:17,479
Speaker 2: Do not think I don't appear too does he.

1664
01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:19,760
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone seems to care very much about that.

1665
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:20,200
Speaker 2: Government.

1666
01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:21,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean to be fair.

1667
01:12:21,520 --> 01:12:23,600
Speaker 2: Well, we balance our budgets just for the record, just

1668
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:24,040
Speaker 2: for the right.

1669
01:12:24,080 --> 01:12:25,679
Speaker 1: I mean kind of one.

1670
01:12:25,600 --> 01:12:30,080
Speaker 2: Hundred percent legally statutorily required, talked about by reserves. We

1671
01:12:30,120 --> 01:12:32,240
Speaker 2: talk about pandemic that's totally.

1672
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:35,679
Speaker 1: Required that we are running. You know, the last several

1673
01:12:35,800 --> 01:12:37,400
Speaker 1: years the budget is run what a twenty billion dollars

1674
01:12:37,439 --> 01:12:38,200
Speaker 1: do No.

1675
01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:40,600
Speaker 2: We just I just submitted a balanced budget, and I

1676
01:12:40,640 --> 01:12:45,960
Speaker 2: mean a dominumous two billion dollar, two point stuff billion dollar,

1677
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:49,120
Speaker 2: which is a rounding error in the state balance budgets.

1678
01:12:49,160 --> 01:12:52,720
Speaker 1: I mean, period and half a billion dollars unfunded liabilities,

1679
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:54,240
Speaker 1: increased tax rates.

1680
01:12:54,240 --> 01:12:56,639
Speaker 2: Well, we have increased taxes since twenty eleven. I haven't

1681
01:12:56,680 --> 01:12:59,080
Speaker 2: increased any taxes. That's just factually untrue.

1682
01:12:59,240 --> 01:13:01,240
Speaker 1: I'm not saying I'm not saying that you increased axes.

1683
01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:05,080
Speaker 2: You but your friends continue to believe Newsome's tax rates. Anyway,

1684
01:13:05,200 --> 01:13:07,840
Speaker 2: let's go back to Trumps. I appreciate when you go

1685
01:13:07,840 --> 01:13:09,599
Speaker 2: down the rabbit hole California, but I want to talk

1686
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:12,360
Speaker 2: about in interesting so we established from your perspective, he

1687
01:13:12,640 --> 01:13:15,680
Speaker 2: fulfilled his promises on the border, mastery, importations of work

1688
01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:18,320
Speaker 2: in progress, and good people can disagree as it relates

1689
01:13:18,320 --> 01:13:20,920
Speaker 2: to whether or not he'll achieve that. I think it's

1690
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:21,600
Speaker 2: apples when it.

1691
01:13:21,560 --> 01:13:23,680
Speaker 1: Comes to when it comes to when it comes to

1692
01:13:23,880 --> 01:13:26,800
Speaker 1: dismantling structures inside the federal government. On DEEI, I think

1693
01:13:26,800 --> 01:13:28,640
Speaker 1: that's a very good thing. I think a meritocracy is

1694
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:30,600
Speaker 1: what ought to be about the economy.

1695
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:34,360
Speaker 2: What about the quality of our lives in the context

1696
01:13:34,360 --> 01:13:36,320
Speaker 2: of what we deal with day in and day out,

1697
01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:40,680
Speaker 2: just your typical family, What his Trump done that has

1698
01:13:40,720 --> 01:13:42,280
Speaker 2: significantly benefited us and less.

1699
01:13:42,320 --> 01:13:44,200
Speaker 1: So this is where I'll go back to my funds

1700
01:13:44,280 --> 01:13:44,880
Speaker 1: I'm not getting right.

1701
01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:45,400
Speaker 2: That's a big text.

1702
01:13:45,720 --> 01:13:47,320
Speaker 1: This is this where I'll go back to my sort

1703
01:13:47,320 --> 01:13:49,000
Speaker 1: of fundamental point, which is that I think that the

1704
01:13:49,040 --> 01:13:52,120
Speaker 1: government guaranteeing that your life is going to be enormously

1705
01:13:52,160 --> 01:13:56,000
Speaker 1: better based on what our at best marginal changes to

1706
01:13:56,160 --> 01:13:57,920
Speaker 1: the structure of the federal government. I think that's an

1707
01:13:57,920 --> 01:14:00,599
Speaker 1: over promise. So I think that how our lives better. Well,

1708
01:14:00,640 --> 01:14:02,800
Speaker 1: I mean, inflation is obviously down. It started to drop

1709
01:14:02,880 --> 01:14:04,960
Speaker 1: under the late Biden and then it started to.

1710
01:14:05,040 --> 01:14:07,040
Speaker 2: I just saw the numbers today. I mean you saw

1711
01:14:07,160 --> 01:14:09,920
Speaker 2: the food was up eight percent. You saw grocery groceries

1712
01:14:09,960 --> 01:14:12,360
Speaker 2: up eight percent, and food was up seven percent.

1713
01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:15,800
Speaker 1: I mean the overall CPI is running about two point

1714
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:17,519
Speaker 1: six two point seven percent. That's the way down from

1715
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:18,439
Speaker 1: where it was two years ago.

1716
01:14:18,520 --> 01:14:20,800
Speaker 2: Still now that goes to that too, I agree, but

1717
01:14:21,360 --> 01:14:22,479
Speaker 2: stuck where it was a year ago.

1718
01:14:22,560 --> 01:14:24,120
Speaker 1: This is why I'm not in favor of, for example,

1719
01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:25,800
Speaker 1: luring the interest rates. I think that the Federals the.

1720
01:14:25,840 --> 01:14:29,479
Speaker 2: Worst job market in sixteen years, manufacturing factory jobs down.

1721
01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:31,320
Speaker 1: Tariffs have not helped the manufacturing.

1722
01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:34,600
Speaker 2: I average person's paying more for Halloween.

1723
01:14:34,800 --> 01:14:36,800
Speaker 1: We paid a little more than they were last than

1724
01:14:36,840 --> 01:14:38,840
Speaker 1: they were last year on a margin, sort of sort

1725
01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:40,760
Speaker 1: of on on a low rate. I mean, the I

1726
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:41,160
Speaker 1: think that.

1727
01:14:41,240 --> 01:14:44,719
Speaker 2: Can get rid of those terriffs, that would be significant. Pause.

1728
01:14:44,760 --> 01:14:46,120
Speaker 1: I've been a big advocate of getting rid of the

1729
01:14:46,160 --> 01:14:49,719
Speaker 1: tariff since literally day one. The biggest, you know, issue

1730
01:14:49,880 --> 01:14:52,320
Speaker 1: that I see with the Trump administration on the economy

1731
01:14:52,680 --> 01:14:54,479
Speaker 1: is that the promise that Trump thought he was making

1732
01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:56,120
Speaker 1: is not the promise. I think that it actually came

1733
01:14:56,160 --> 01:14:59,040
Speaker 1: out latorically so rhetorically he was saying, everything's going to

1734
01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:02,240
Speaker 1: become affordable again. And what people mean by affordable is

1735
01:15:02,280 --> 01:15:05,000
Speaker 1: I want twenty nineteen prices. Yeah, okay, no one is

1736
01:15:05,040 --> 01:15:07,840
Speaker 1: getting twenty nineteen prices much. We can do it, so

1737
01:15:07,920 --> 01:15:11,520
Speaker 1: we get in exactly if we get into a recession stagflation,

1738
01:15:11,560 --> 01:15:13,400
Speaker 1: would know, you need actual stagnation, right, you need you

1739
01:15:13,479 --> 01:15:16,679
Speaker 1: need like an actual thing, depression or recession stand correct.

1740
01:15:16,920 --> 01:15:20,320
Speaker 1: And so the the sort that that promise is not

1741
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:23,120
Speaker 1: a coherent one. It's why I actually had some sympathy

1742
01:15:23,120 --> 01:15:26,200
Speaker 1: for one. He said, you know, affordability is you know, nonsense.

1743
01:15:26,560 --> 01:15:29,920
Speaker 1: I think what he meant by that actually is that affordability.

1744
01:15:29,960 --> 01:15:32,680
Speaker 1: When have you ever thought, hey, everything is affordable?

1745
01:15:32,960 --> 01:15:33,120
Speaker 2: Right?

1746
01:15:33,200 --> 01:15:35,559
Speaker 1: Pretty rare in anyone's life to say things are just

1747
01:15:35,680 --> 01:15:38,600
Speaker 1: affordable because a dollar store, right, it's a comparative.

1748
01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:40,040
Speaker 2: To me, now it's a dollar twenty nine at the dollars.

1749
01:15:40,200 --> 01:15:42,800
Speaker 1: And so specifically saying and specifically speaking, I think it's

1750
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:44,800
Speaker 1: good that inflation is down. I think it's good that

1751
01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:47,599
Speaker 1: the stock market is up. Fifty percent of Americans hold stocks,

1752
01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:49,519
Speaker 1: and when the stock market is robust, that means there

1753
01:15:49,520 --> 01:15:52,760
Speaker 1: can be more investments in, for example, infrastructure projects and

1754
01:15:52,800 --> 01:15:54,080
Speaker 1: data centers and all the rest.

1755
01:15:54,640 --> 01:15:54,800
Speaker 2: You know.

1756
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:57,599
Speaker 1: I'm a believer that there is in fact a bubble

1757
01:15:57,640 --> 01:15:59,360
Speaker 1: that's going on in the stock market because there's an

1758
01:15:59,439 --> 01:16:01,760
Speaker 1: enormous amount momentum at the top end, and most of

1759
01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:04,280
Speaker 1: the games in the stock market are happening in stocks.

1760
01:16:04,880 --> 01:16:06,720
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that a I won't be an amazing thing.

1761
01:16:06,760 --> 01:16:08,160
Speaker 1: I think it is an amazing thing. But I do

1762
01:16:08,200 --> 01:16:09,960
Speaker 1: think that there will be a winning at the top

1763
01:16:10,040 --> 01:16:11,720
Speaker 1: end of the market. When that happens, then there will

1764
01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:15,040
Speaker 1: probably be a depression of some sort. Not a great depression,

1765
01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:17,080
Speaker 1: but I mean, like the depressed prices in the markets.

1766
01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:18,920
Speaker 1: I think that a lot of these stocks are trading

1767
01:16:18,920 --> 01:16:22,679
Speaker 1: at unsustainable pe ratios. So you know, I'm concerned about

1768
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:25,400
Speaker 1: all those things. That the main critique I have for

1769
01:16:25,439 --> 01:16:28,840
Speaker 1: President Trump on the economic front is that investors what

1770
01:16:28,880 --> 01:16:33,439
Speaker 1: they are really looking for is number one, less regulation

1771
01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:37,200
Speaker 1: is an investment, but number two consistency and the lack

1772
01:16:37,240 --> 01:16:40,680
Speaker 1: of consistency at the federal level is incredibly difficult for

1773
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:43,360
Speaker 1: investors to navigate. And actually I think that if the

1774
01:16:43,400 --> 01:16:45,320
Speaker 1: Supreme Court steps in and says no to the tariffs,

1775
01:16:45,320 --> 01:16:48,760
Speaker 1: you'll actually see a rather large economic boost because of it,

1776
01:16:48,800 --> 01:16:51,080
Speaker 1: because the Supreme Court will place the limitation then on

1777
01:16:51,120 --> 01:16:53,240
Speaker 1: the executive branch records so.

1778
01:16:53,320 --> 01:16:55,280
Speaker 2: That he can oppose with other means, though that's going

1779
01:16:55,320 --> 01:16:56,519
Speaker 2: to be the one the other and then that the.

1780
01:16:56,520 --> 01:16:58,640
Speaker 1: Supreme Court will you know, will likely step in at

1781
01:16:58,680 --> 01:16:59,240
Speaker 1: that point.

1782
01:16:59,240 --> 01:17:00,760
Speaker 2: Six months here. Yeah.

1783
01:17:01,120 --> 01:17:03,960
Speaker 1: Probably Again, I'm very critical of the Terran.

1784
01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:07,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I appreciate the consistency, yes, just but on

1785
01:17:07,240 --> 01:17:10,040
Speaker 2: Trump generally, I'm curious just the.

1786
01:17:10,320 --> 01:17:12,000
Speaker 1: On foreign policy, which you put it to the side.

1787
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:14,800
Speaker 1: I think Trump has been the greatest foreign policy president

1788
01:17:14,800 --> 01:17:16,640
Speaker 1: in my lifetime. I don't think it's close. I think

1789
01:17:16,680 --> 01:17:19,040
Speaker 1: he's been spectacular and foreign policy and that's with and

1790
01:17:19,080 --> 01:17:21,880
Speaker 1: that's with many of my critiques with regards to, for example, Ukraine,

1791
01:17:21,880 --> 01:17:24,200
Speaker 1: where I'm significantly more hawkish than the administration has been.

1792
01:17:24,320 --> 01:17:26,439
Speaker 2: And did you feel that way in his first term?

1793
01:17:26,520 --> 01:17:29,320
Speaker 1: Yes, I thought yes, I was very much an advocate

1794
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:31,439
Speaker 1: of his foreign policy. I thought that that in terms

1795
01:17:31,439 --> 01:17:34,479
Speaker 1: of his foreign policy, he is, as he said before,

1796
01:17:34,520 --> 01:17:36,559
Speaker 1: he has not got us into any major wars, which

1797
01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:37,680
Speaker 1: is a good thing.

1798
01:17:38,000 --> 01:17:41,080
Speaker 2: Do you use the military sixty seven significant.

1799
01:17:40,479 --> 01:17:43,559
Speaker 1: Time he has used the military, and I think targeted

1800
01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:47,599
Speaker 1: and pinpointed ways that do not reinforce the Iraq war

1801
01:17:47,640 --> 01:17:49,479
Speaker 1: syndrome that you know, we need to put hundreds of

1802
01:17:49,479 --> 01:17:52,360
Speaker 1: thousands of troops on the ground. I think the President

1803
01:17:52,479 --> 01:17:55,800
Speaker 1: has a very good feel for The thing about foreign

1804
01:17:55,840 --> 01:17:57,280
Speaker 1: policy is it kind of works like the New York

1805
01:17:57,320 --> 01:17:59,360
Speaker 1: real estate market. It actually is a sort of zero

1806
01:17:59,360 --> 01:18:01,400
Speaker 1: s winner lose game, and President Trump actually is quite

1807
01:18:01,400 --> 01:18:04,200
Speaker 1: good at those. And I think that on domestic economics,

1808
01:18:04,240 --> 01:18:06,639
Speaker 1: the President tends to bring a zero some approach sometimes

1809
01:18:06,640 --> 01:18:09,599
Speaker 1: to his economic issues that I don't agree with because

1810
01:18:09,600 --> 01:18:11,439
Speaker 1: I think that you can expand the pie for everybody.

1811
01:18:11,560 --> 01:18:13,639
Speaker 1: But I don't think the same thing holds true generally

1812
01:18:13,680 --> 01:18:16,599
Speaker 1: in foreign policy, where when it comes to geopolitics, there's

1813
01:18:16,600 --> 01:18:19,160
Speaker 1: a winner and there's a loser, and it's all about

1814
01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:22,240
Speaker 1: relative power and power dynamics, and the President seems to

1815
01:18:22,240 --> 01:18:24,599
Speaker 1: get that on a very gut level, which is why

1816
01:18:24,600 --> 01:18:25,760
Speaker 1: in the Middle East. I think he did the right

1817
01:18:25,800 --> 01:18:27,559
Speaker 1: thing with Gaza. I think he's done the right thing

1818
01:18:27,840 --> 01:18:30,360
Speaker 1: with the Iran strike on Photo nuclear facility. I think

1819
01:18:30,360 --> 01:18:32,840
Speaker 1: he did the right thing in extraditing Nicholas Maduro. I

1820
01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:34,960
Speaker 1: think those are all good things. I think that he

1821
01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:38,160
Speaker 1: has found ways to continue the funding of Ukraine via

1822
01:18:38,400 --> 01:18:42,599
Speaker 1: this sort of Jerry Rignato NATO buying weapons and funding.

1823
01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:44,400
Speaker 1: I think that he has gotten a bunch of countries

1824
01:18:44,439 --> 01:18:46,639
Speaker 1: in Europe to increase their defense spending, which is something

1825
01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:48,280
Speaker 1: that even Mark Rudy over at NATO has said is

1826
01:18:48,720 --> 01:18:50,800
Speaker 1: generally a good thing. I think all of that.

1827
01:18:50,840 --> 01:18:52,679
Speaker 2: I don't argue with that. I mean, we can, boy,

1828
01:18:52,720 --> 01:18:55,600
Speaker 2: and people are looking for us to unpack that. We

1829
01:18:56,400 --> 01:18:58,680
Speaker 2: can spend hours and hours on every single one of

1830
01:18:58,680 --> 01:19:02,360
Speaker 2: these specific examples. Let me ask you, and just before

1831
01:19:02,360 --> 01:19:05,480
Speaker 2: we get off the foreign policy, I am curious Greenland.

1832
01:19:05,600 --> 01:19:08,439
Speaker 1: Come on, I don't I don't understand why we are

1833
01:19:08,439 --> 01:19:10,680
Speaker 1: we are attempting to make Greenland our fifty first date.

1834
01:19:11,920 --> 01:19:14,439
Speaker 1: It seems to me, we already have defense agreements.

1835
01:19:14,040 --> 01:19:16,519
Speaker 2: In well established in nineteen fifty one, we were the

1836
01:19:16,520 --> 01:19:18,600
Speaker 2: ones that pulled back. We can re enter and inn

1837
01:19:18,600 --> 01:19:19,200
Speaker 2: theah of the week.

1838
01:19:19,360 --> 01:19:22,439
Speaker 1: And I think that that Greenland. I think that that,

1839
01:19:22,560 --> 01:19:25,720
Speaker 1: you know, despite the desire to rename it trumplin, I

1840
01:19:25,720 --> 01:19:26,840
Speaker 1: think that I have ever heard that.

1841
01:19:27,400 --> 01:19:29,760
Speaker 2: But it's not trying to deal with the Donni or

1842
01:19:29,800 --> 01:19:30,200
Speaker 2: whatever it.

1843
01:19:30,160 --> 01:19:34,000
Speaker 1: Is, you know. I think that's I think that's only

1844
01:19:34,520 --> 01:19:38,080
Speaker 1: I think that the the you know, attempts to strengthen

1845
01:19:38,200 --> 01:19:40,760
Speaker 1: our bases in Greenland would be good thing. But I

1846
01:19:40,800 --> 01:19:41,280
Speaker 1: think that's an.

1847
01:19:41,200 --> 01:19:43,479
Speaker 2: Interest thing to do tomorrow, which they've already agreed to agree.

1848
01:19:43,520 --> 01:19:46,600
Speaker 2: I agree the whole things seems folly, but it not seems.

1849
01:19:46,280 --> 01:19:47,640
Speaker 1: It is invading Canada. That's it.

1850
01:19:48,840 --> 01:19:50,760
Speaker 2: I want to just because you write about it in

1851
01:19:50,800 --> 01:19:53,599
Speaker 2: lines in Scavengers, you talk about this notion of free enterprise,

1852
01:19:53,680 --> 01:19:56,479
Speaker 2: You talk about markets. What do you make of of

1853
01:19:56,560 --> 01:20:00,240
Speaker 2: Trump's interventionist attitudes, not just overseas, but as really to

1854
01:20:00,560 --> 01:20:05,000
Speaker 2: corporations and companies so many disproportionately based out here, including

1855
01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:07,640
Speaker 2: MP materials, which.

1856
01:20:07,560 --> 01:20:09,439
Speaker 1: Is I don't think the federal government should be taking

1857
01:20:09,479 --> 01:20:12,120
Speaker 1: stakes in private companies. I don't believe in what has

1858
01:20:12,160 --> 01:20:14,760
Speaker 1: been called the crony capitalism or stake capitalism really is

1859
01:20:14,760 --> 01:20:17,360
Speaker 1: just corporatism. I'm not a fan of the idea that

1860
01:20:17,360 --> 01:20:20,519
Speaker 1: the government ought to, you know, be involved in command

1861
01:20:20,520 --> 01:20:24,280
Speaker 1: and control economics with with regard to private companies. So

1862
01:20:24,560 --> 01:20:27,200
Speaker 1: I've opposed that pretty much every step of the way.

1863
01:20:27,360 --> 01:20:29,439
Speaker 1: I think it's a mistake. I think that the market

1864
01:20:29,640 --> 01:20:32,200
Speaker 1: has a magical ability to make things better and cheaper

1865
01:20:32,280 --> 01:20:35,000
Speaker 1: over time if left to its own devices, and that includes.

1866
01:20:34,680 --> 01:20:36,920
Speaker 2: By the way, not interfering in the independence of the FED.

1867
01:20:37,200 --> 01:20:41,040
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm an Austrian school of economics guy. I think

1868
01:20:41,080 --> 01:20:42,320
Speaker 1: that there's a good case to be made that the

1869
01:20:42,360 --> 01:20:44,320
Speaker 1: FED really should not have control over inflation rates in

1870
01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:46,160
Speaker 1: the first place. I think the target inflation rate should

1871
01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:49,240
Speaker 1: be zero, not too and I think that we should

1872
01:20:49,240 --> 01:20:52,400
Speaker 1: allow interest rates generally to free float because I think that,

1873
01:20:52,760 --> 01:20:54,720
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes one of the great problems with the

1874
01:20:54,720 --> 01:20:57,639
Speaker 1: American economy is artificial bubbles that are created by loose

1875
01:20:58,160 --> 01:21:01,280
Speaker 1: monetary policy. I think that's what leads to the Great Recession.

1876
01:21:01,439 --> 01:21:03,519
Speaker 1: I think it's what also led to the inflationary spiral.

1877
01:21:03,560 --> 01:21:05,040
Speaker 1: Andro Joe Biden, what.

1878
01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:08,200
Speaker 2: Do you make of Donald Trump, and forgive me, this

1879
01:21:08,320 --> 01:21:11,120
Speaker 2: is you know, zigging and zagging around a little bit.

1880
01:21:11,200 --> 01:21:13,680
Speaker 2: But I still can't get over the fact that he

1881
01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:16,040
Speaker 2: sat down and had dinner with Nick Flins.

1882
01:21:16,360 --> 01:21:19,640
Speaker 1: So I think that that was a bad thing to do. Obviously,

1883
01:21:20,120 --> 01:21:22,479
Speaker 1: I think that Nick Flinn, says, is a scumbag. I

1884
01:21:22,479 --> 01:21:26,000
Speaker 1: think that the president has, you know, an unfortunate tendency

1885
01:21:26,160 --> 01:21:29,240
Speaker 1: to make nice with people who want to make nice

1886
01:21:29,360 --> 01:21:31,920
Speaker 1: with him. He did come out this week, by the way,

1887
01:21:32,000 --> 01:21:34,000
Speaker 1: and you know, in the New York Times said the

1888
01:21:34,040 --> 01:21:36,280
Speaker 1: Republican Party wants nothing to do with people like Nick Flints,

1889
01:21:36,320 --> 01:21:39,200
Speaker 1: doesn't want to do with anti Semites. I'll continue to

1890
01:21:39,240 --> 01:21:41,360
Speaker 1: be critical of Republicans who who flirt with this sort

1891
01:21:41,400 --> 01:21:43,760
Speaker 1: of stuff. I whish that the Democratic Party were as

1892
01:21:43,760 --> 01:21:46,559
Speaker 1: critical of sitting Congress members who not only flirt with

1893
01:21:46,560 --> 01:21:49,040
Speaker 1: this sort of stuff, but overtly traffic in this sort

1894
01:21:49,080 --> 01:21:49,439
Speaker 1: of stuff.

1895
01:21:49,439 --> 01:21:49,640
Speaker 2: You know.

1896
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:52,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll ask you about Zoramum Donnie Ormum Donnie

1897
01:21:52,600 --> 01:21:55,679
Speaker 1: literally in the campaign. In the campaign, he was asked

1898
01:21:55,680 --> 01:21:57,639
Speaker 1: on Fox News about from Austin. He refused to announce

1899
01:21:57,640 --> 01:21:58,400
Speaker 1: it as a terrorist group.

1900
01:21:58,520 --> 01:22:00,519
Speaker 2: They are terrorist group and they should have been announced.

1901
01:22:00,560 --> 01:22:02,160
Speaker 2: I was there, as you know, a few weeks after

1902
01:22:02,320 --> 01:22:05,080
Speaker 2: October seventh, met with BB. Not a big fan of BB.

1903
01:22:05,240 --> 01:22:08,720
Speaker 2: This is where we have fundamental disagreements. Quite the contrary in.

1904
01:22:08,640 --> 01:22:11,240
Speaker 1: Fact, but it stay in semester politics for a second. Yeah,

1905
01:22:11,360 --> 01:22:13,440
Speaker 1: it seems to be have become a sort of Debrigore

1906
01:22:14,160 --> 01:22:18,120
Speaker 1: requirement for Democrats who are running for office to now suggest,

1907
01:22:18,200 --> 01:22:20,559
Speaker 1: for example, Scott Wiener just did this, he's running for Congress,

1908
01:22:20,640 --> 01:22:23,160
Speaker 1: that Israel committed to genocide and Gaza. That is, forget

1909
01:22:23,160 --> 01:22:25,200
Speaker 1: about anti simitism and discussions of it, because I think

1910
01:22:25,240 --> 01:22:27,599
Speaker 1: that those have become really loose and people don't have

1911
01:22:27,640 --> 01:22:30,000
Speaker 1: a consistent definition of anti Simmitism. Let's just talk about

1912
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:30,400
Speaker 1: what's true.

1913
01:22:30,439 --> 01:22:33,240
Speaker 2: That's true. I think it's true about the definition. I mean, we,

1914
01:22:33,360 --> 01:22:35,840
Speaker 2: as you know, been struggling with that in California as

1915
01:22:35,840 --> 01:22:37,040
Speaker 2: it relates to a lot of laws.

1916
01:22:37,040 --> 01:22:41,240
Speaker 1: And anti simitism is a fundamentally different cat than, for example, racism.

1917
01:22:41,240 --> 01:22:43,880
Speaker 1: It's basically a conspiracy theory about Jewish power in the world.

1918
01:22:43,960 --> 01:22:46,000
Speaker 2: But and it makes me sick to my stomach. And

1919
01:22:46,040 --> 01:22:48,599
Speaker 2: I say that clearly, but not just of course. I mean,

1920
01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:50,719
Speaker 2: we've we've tried to lead in terms of our response,

1921
01:22:51,040 --> 01:22:53,799
Speaker 2: and we've called out and called balls and strikes terms of.

1922
01:22:53,640 --> 01:22:56,840
Speaker 1: The outrageous without I would you know, in my own

1923
01:22:56,880 --> 01:22:59,479
Speaker 1: framework of anti semitism, I think that's saying overtly false

1924
01:22:59,520 --> 01:23:03,960
Speaker 1: things about the Jewish state is a form of anti Semitism.

1925
01:23:04,000 --> 01:23:08,080
Speaker 1: But I don't think that that is really important as

1926
01:23:08,160 --> 01:23:10,320
Speaker 1: much as it is is it true or not? So

1927
01:23:10,640 --> 01:23:14,439
Speaker 1: Democrats have now been dragged into this conversation, some drags,

1928
01:23:14,439 --> 01:23:19,000
Speaker 1: some run with you know, flags waving into the conversation

1929
01:23:19,080 --> 01:23:19,599
Speaker 1: of geneside.

1930
01:23:19,760 --> 01:23:21,160
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, look at.

1931
01:23:21,240 --> 01:23:23,720
Speaker 1: Israel did not commit a genocide in Gaza. There is

1932
01:23:23,760 --> 01:23:25,880
Speaker 1: no standard by which is Reel committed to genocide in Gaza.

1933
01:23:25,960 --> 01:23:27,200
Speaker 1: Just then a factual level.

1934
01:23:27,479 --> 01:23:28,759
Speaker 2: A legal and factual level.

1935
01:23:28,960 --> 01:23:30,800
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, what is your opinion of this?

1936
01:23:31,880 --> 01:23:37,840
Speaker 2: My opinion is I understand the tendency for people to

1937
01:23:38,000 --> 01:23:42,479
Speaker 2: make that, to assert that why on the basis of

1938
01:23:42,760 --> 01:23:49,200
Speaker 2: the images and the proportionality genocide? No. No, And by

1939
01:23:49,240 --> 01:23:50,559
Speaker 2: the way, I agree with you, and.

1940
01:23:52,960 --> 01:23:55,360
Speaker 1: Doesn't mean that if you kill my child and I

1941
01:23:55,400 --> 01:23:57,760
Speaker 1: then kill seven criminals, that I've been disproportionate.

1942
01:23:57,840 --> 01:24:01,479
Speaker 2: I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think the But

1943
01:24:01,560 --> 01:24:06,120
Speaker 2: I understand that tendency on the basis of trying to

1944
01:24:06,240 --> 01:24:10,920
Speaker 2: reconcile the proportionate nature of how the war was ultimately.

1945
01:24:10,560 --> 01:24:15,479
Speaker 1: Conduct to question, why do you feel the need to

1946
01:24:15,600 --> 01:24:18,160
Speaker 1: create a permission structure for that sort of stuff? I mean,

1947
01:24:18,400 --> 01:24:22,320
Speaker 1: meaning it's not true? Why not you say it's not true?

1948
01:24:22,400 --> 01:24:24,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, I don't know the definition or I don't

1949
01:24:24,200 --> 01:24:26,560
Speaker 2: know the legal threshold. That's not my opinion, so I

1950
01:24:26,640 --> 01:24:29,040
Speaker 2: don't I don't share that opinion. This relates to genocide,

1951
01:24:29,200 --> 01:24:32,040
Speaker 2: not I do not agree with that notion that you.

1952
01:24:31,960 --> 01:24:34,960
Speaker 1: Do understand that if you accuse Israel of committing a genocide,

1953
01:24:34,960 --> 01:24:36,840
Speaker 1: that now puts Israel in the position of it should

1954
01:24:36,840 --> 01:24:39,000
Speaker 1: be a pariah state, because states the commit genocide should

1955
01:24:39,000 --> 01:24:42,920
Speaker 1: be pariah states. So granting legitimacy to that position inherent.

1956
01:24:42,800 --> 01:24:47,519
Speaker 2: I'm not granted legitimacy. I'm just saying the devastation in

1957
01:24:47,600 --> 01:24:50,639
Speaker 2: Gaza at the human level you've got four of course,

1958
01:24:50,680 --> 01:24:52,760
Speaker 2: it's terrible, No, but I think it's also important to

1959
01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:55,080
Speaker 2: absorb that a little bit more just as it was

1960
01:24:55,520 --> 01:24:58,000
Speaker 2: sick and we were clear in our condemnation of these

1961
01:24:58,040 --> 01:25:00,360
Speaker 2: people like me, as it relates to what Hamah did

1962
01:25:00,640 --> 01:25:02,519
Speaker 2: in that act of barbarism and terrorism.

1963
01:25:02,880 --> 01:25:07,040
Speaker 1: That was christroism and wartime collateral damage of wars, and

1964
01:25:07,040 --> 01:25:09,519
Speaker 1: if we refused to acknowledge that reality, then we end.

1965
01:25:09,520 --> 01:25:12,680
Speaker 2: Up collateral damage. I just I have stronger opinions. It

1966
01:25:12,720 --> 01:25:17,880
Speaker 2: wasn't just collateral, you know. I think some of the

1967
01:25:17,920 --> 01:25:19,960
Speaker 2: double tapping issues I have. I have a lot of

1968
01:25:20,040 --> 01:25:22,599
Speaker 2: issues without Babe ultimately conduct the war, I personally do,

1969
01:25:22,880 --> 01:25:24,200
Speaker 2: and I have a lot of issues that are also

1970
01:25:24,240 --> 01:25:26,720
Speaker 2: painted on the basis of the conversation I had UH

1971
01:25:27,280 --> 01:25:30,559
Speaker 2: a few weeks later after October seventh, the way he

1972
01:25:30,680 --> 01:25:33,240
Speaker 2: talked about the Palestinians. I kept talking about a moss.

1973
01:25:33,360 --> 01:25:35,960
Speaker 2: He kept talking about the Palestinians. I kept coming back

1974
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:39,280
Speaker 2: to a moss and then ultimately how the war was conducted. Uh.

1975
01:25:39,439 --> 01:25:42,040
Speaker 2: Not saying it was a genocide, I'm not, but I

1976
01:25:42,080 --> 01:25:43,599
Speaker 2: have issues. What is the thing that he said that

1977
01:25:43,600 --> 01:25:45,880
Speaker 2: that you particularly, there was a dehumanization. I didn't like

1978
01:25:45,880 --> 01:25:48,040
Speaker 2: the way he talked about the Palestinian people. I just

1979
01:25:48,080 --> 01:25:50,599
Speaker 2: didn't What is the specific they can't govern them? I

1980
01:25:50,640 --> 01:25:54,320
Speaker 2: didn't specific. I don't want to get into the details.

1981
01:25:54,240 --> 01:25:57,040
Speaker 1: Because when it was that he is conflating Hamas and

1982
01:25:57,080 --> 01:26:00,040
Speaker 1: the Palestinians he wasn't does lead to the conclusion they were.

1983
01:26:00,040 --> 01:26:02,400
Speaker 2: If it wasn't. No, no, no, it was. I'm just

1984
01:26:02,439 --> 01:26:05,519
Speaker 2: saying the way he ultimately conducted it. I look back

1985
01:26:05,560 --> 01:26:09,360
Speaker 2: at that conversation, I reflect on rather that conversation, it

1986
01:26:09,360 --> 01:26:12,400
Speaker 2: doesn't surprise me. And uh and I did not think

1987
01:26:12,439 --> 01:26:15,240
Speaker 2: it was proportionate, Okay, and I thought I was overwhelming.

1988
01:26:15,960 --> 01:26:19,800
Speaker 2: And the devastation instruction breaks my heart.

1989
01:26:19,800 --> 01:26:22,879
Speaker 1: Okay, So your President of the United States, somebody invades

1990
01:26:23,040 --> 01:26:26,439
Speaker 1: from Mexico, they take several thousand American citizens, get it,

1991
01:26:26,640 --> 01:26:28,439
Speaker 1: and by the way, they hold them all the way

1992
01:26:28,520 --> 01:26:29,960
Speaker 1: until the end of the war, until the end of

1993
01:26:29,960 --> 01:26:31,280
Speaker 1: the war, their hostages being held.

1994
01:26:31,320 --> 01:26:33,120
Speaker 2: Don't get me wrong on any of this. I'm with

1995
01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:36,240
Speaker 2: you in terms of the ultimate accountability and bringing the

1996
01:26:36,280 --> 01:26:38,680
Speaker 2: hostages home. I like the clarity and conviction as it

1997
01:26:38,720 --> 01:26:41,080
Speaker 2: relates to getting all the hostages dead and alive home

1998
01:26:41,640 --> 01:26:43,400
Speaker 2: and all of that. I'm not denying that.

1999
01:26:43,439 --> 01:26:45,479
Speaker 1: And by the way, still has not been extra paid

2000
01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:46,679
Speaker 1: in the areas where we're.

2001
01:26:46,600 --> 01:26:51,599
Speaker 2: Is and and there's and and clearly this truce, uh

2002
01:26:51,640 --> 01:26:54,280
Speaker 2: and detente is still a work in progress, has been

2003
01:26:54,280 --> 01:26:55,000
Speaker 2: a lot of destructions.

2004
01:26:55,439 --> 01:26:59,439
Speaker 1: Was supposed to be armed look, there's no crystal clear.

2005
01:27:00,160 --> 01:27:01,960
Speaker 1: The point is that they're still clear about it. But

2006
01:27:02,560 --> 01:27:05,799
Speaker 1: the point is that I think clear my love.

2007
01:27:05,640 --> 01:27:08,639
Speaker 2: For Israel and my condemnation of BB. And there's a distinction.

2008
01:27:08,720 --> 01:27:11,360
Speaker 2: I condemned Donald Trump. I love my country.

2009
01:27:10,720 --> 01:27:13,439
Speaker 1: And listen, anyone is free to disagree with Prime Minister

2010
01:27:13,560 --> 01:27:15,879
Speaker 1: naithania Who any time that they want. I will point out.

2011
01:27:15,680 --> 01:27:18,320
Speaker 2: That they're not anti Semitic when they say, of course not.

2012
01:27:18,640 --> 01:27:21,840
Speaker 2: And that's also important because some people like that there's

2013
01:27:21,960 --> 01:27:23,559
Speaker 2: don't you don't know, but others do.

2014
01:27:24,520 --> 01:27:26,720
Speaker 1: I've critique b B myself, mainly for not being right wing

2015
01:27:26,800 --> 01:27:29,160
Speaker 1: enough in my opinion on many issues to master actually

2016
01:27:29,560 --> 01:27:31,320
Speaker 1: but when it comes to but when when it when

2017
01:27:31,320 --> 01:27:34,120
Speaker 1: it comes to the the I mean, we can get

2018
01:27:34,160 --> 01:27:36,880
Speaker 1: into perceptions of Ninia, Who's leadership and all this. I

2019
01:27:36,880 --> 01:27:39,840
Speaker 1: will say this, I know every major politician in Israel.

2020
01:27:39,880 --> 01:27:42,200
Speaker 1: Just I know many of major politicians in Ukraine and

2021
01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:45,599
Speaker 1: Hungary and in a wide variety of places in Israel.

2022
01:27:45,640 --> 01:27:48,800
Speaker 1: I happen to know the last several prime ministers. If

2023
01:27:49,200 --> 01:27:51,519
Speaker 1: anyone outside of the State of Israel believes, then I

2024
01:27:51,680 --> 01:27:55,320
Speaker 1: tally Bennett or yeah, you're Lapede's on the left in

2025
01:27:55,400 --> 01:27:58,360
Speaker 1: response that is not that's not it's not true.

2026
01:27:58,439 --> 01:27:59,000
Speaker 2: No fair point.

2027
01:27:59,040 --> 01:28:00,880
Speaker 1: And look, hey, and the and the IDEAF, by the way,

2028
01:28:00,920 --> 01:28:05,120
Speaker 1: operates largely independently in some ways of the Prime Minister's office.

2029
01:28:05,120 --> 01:28:06,800
Speaker 1: It's kind of a strange duel system that they have

2030
01:28:07,400 --> 01:28:09,120
Speaker 1: over there. And I know too many soldiers who I mean,

2031
01:28:09,120 --> 01:28:10,559
Speaker 1: I talk about one in the book who had three

2032
01:28:10,640 --> 01:28:13,320
Speaker 1: limbs blown off going door to door in Gaza. Not

2033
01:28:13,320 --> 01:28:16,759
Speaker 1: not using trom not using overwhelming air power to eviscerate

2034
01:28:16,840 --> 01:28:17,559
Speaker 1: millions of people.

2035
01:28:17,800 --> 01:28:21,920
Speaker 2: I was in the hospital meeting victims on October seventh

2036
01:28:21,920 --> 01:28:25,559
Speaker 2: in Israel. So I look, look, you know and been

2037
01:28:25,600 --> 01:28:27,400
Speaker 2: the memorials, and I.

2038
01:28:27,360 --> 01:28:29,000
Speaker 1: Want to be clear in the terminology we use about

2039
01:28:29,000 --> 01:28:30,880
Speaker 1: all this stuff because right now, for example, but the

2040
01:28:30,960 --> 01:28:33,360
Speaker 1: gener the protests, where the protest Where are the members

2041
01:28:33,400 --> 01:28:36,760
Speaker 1: of the Democratic Party protesting and wearing pins for the protesters?

2042
01:28:36,800 --> 01:28:39,240
Speaker 1: And ron we're getting mowed down maybe by the tens

2043
01:28:39,240 --> 01:28:40,400
Speaker 1: of thousands this week.

2044
01:28:40,520 --> 01:28:41,880
Speaker 2: I know where I am. I put out a pretty

2045
01:28:41,880 --> 01:28:42,920
Speaker 2: clear statement.

2046
01:28:42,600 --> 01:28:44,479
Speaker 1: This week and see more Democrats.

2047
01:28:44,640 --> 01:28:46,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't disagree with you, By the way, I

2048
01:28:46,520 --> 01:28:48,280
Speaker 2: also thought it was I thought it was the right

2049
01:28:48,320 --> 01:28:49,920
Speaker 2: thing to do that strike and I thought it was

2050
01:28:50,000 --> 01:28:54,160
Speaker 2: unbelievably effective and efficient and had no problems saying that

2051
01:28:54,920 --> 01:28:59,040
Speaker 2: during the strike, not didn't wait for the outcomes. So yeah,

2052
01:28:59,040 --> 01:29:01,160
Speaker 2: in March to beat a little bit of a different drum,

2053
01:29:01,200 --> 01:29:03,679
Speaker 2: a little bit more nuance here. But there is Look,

2054
01:29:03,800 --> 01:29:07,559
Speaker 2: it's everything's so black and white. It's just there's nuance here.

2055
01:29:07,640 --> 01:29:09,080
Speaker 1: I mean, for sure, But I think that that's point

2056
01:29:09,080 --> 01:29:10,799
Speaker 1: that I'm making back to sort of where he originally

2057
01:29:10,840 --> 01:29:13,080
Speaker 1: departed here, was that, you know, I'm trying to call

2058
01:29:13,160 --> 01:29:16,760
Speaker 1: out what I see as bad behavior, untrue and moral

2059
01:29:16,800 --> 01:29:18,519
Speaker 1: behavior on my own side. I'd like to see that

2060
01:29:18,560 --> 01:29:20,920
Speaker 1: more from a Democratic party that seemed to be perfectly

2061
01:29:20,920 --> 01:29:23,000
Speaker 1: willing to wrap an arm around Armandani the minute he

2062
01:29:23,000 --> 01:29:25,760
Speaker 1: got a little bit of momentum, the same man who

2063
01:29:25,760 --> 01:29:28,080
Speaker 1: had said that whenever the NYPD boot is on the

2064
01:29:28,120 --> 01:29:31,639
Speaker 1: throat of Americans, the IDF is lacing the boot, that's

2065
01:29:31,640 --> 01:29:33,719
Speaker 1: sort of nonsense. Is terrible.

2066
01:29:33,800 --> 01:29:36,040
Speaker 2: No, I don't associate with those comments at all. I mean,

2067
01:29:36,080 --> 01:29:36,920
Speaker 2: and look.

2068
01:29:37,360 --> 01:29:39,360
Speaker 1: For me, be in the mayor of New York.

2069
01:29:39,600 --> 01:29:42,360
Speaker 2: That's that's for people in New York to make that decision.

2070
01:29:42,400 --> 01:29:44,240
Speaker 2: That's not for me. Tom out here in California, and

2071
01:29:44,400 --> 01:29:49,760
Speaker 2: thousands of miles away. Well that that directly impacts me,

2072
01:29:49,800 --> 01:29:52,040
Speaker 2: I mean New York may indirectly, but I mean it's

2073
01:29:52,280 --> 01:29:53,920
Speaker 2: a little bit of different question. We'll see how he

2074
01:29:54,000 --> 01:29:56,680
Speaker 2: ultimately does. Thought he ran an incredibly effective campaign. I

2075
01:29:56,680 --> 01:29:58,800
Speaker 2: think there's a lot of interesting attributes that he has.

2076
01:29:58,840 --> 01:30:00,759
Speaker 2: Incredibly bright, it'll be capable.

2077
01:30:00,800 --> 01:30:03,160
Speaker 1: I delivered a lot of terrible people who say brighton

2078
01:30:03,240 --> 01:30:03,759
Speaker 1: and capable.

2079
01:30:03,760 --> 01:30:06,160
Speaker 2: No, I get it, but and I absolutely disagree with

2080
01:30:06,200 --> 01:30:07,720
Speaker 2: them on a lot of those comments. And I was

2081
01:30:07,760 --> 01:30:11,200
Speaker 2: also I also maintained that posture pretty consistently over a

2082
01:30:11,200 --> 01:30:13,320
Speaker 2: great period a long period of time. And no, I

2083
01:30:13,400 --> 01:30:16,559
Speaker 2: was not a Cuomo fan. Uh so just for the record,

2084
01:30:17,040 --> 01:30:21,360
Speaker 2: uh and sorry, yeah, And I say this with respect.

2085
01:30:21,400 --> 01:30:23,880
Speaker 2: I mean, I you know, the Cuomo family is a

2086
01:30:23,880 --> 01:30:26,960
Speaker 2: good democrat. You know his father, and there's some members

2087
01:30:26,960 --> 01:30:29,160
Speaker 2: of the family I like a lot. But look, these

2088
01:30:29,200 --> 01:30:31,400
Speaker 2: are these are tough issues, and they are tough issues,

2089
01:30:31,439 --> 01:30:34,439
Speaker 2: and I look, look, I appreciate your willingness to call

2090
01:30:34,439 --> 01:30:36,960
Speaker 2: balls and strikes and a lot of folks, you know, frankly,

2091
01:30:36,960 --> 01:30:39,559
Speaker 2: a lot of folks in your world as we sort

2092
01:30:39,600 --> 01:30:43,920
Speaker 2: of castigate the right wing media ecosystem, your willingness to

2093
01:30:43,920 --> 01:30:46,000
Speaker 2: call this stuff out and this.

2094
01:30:45,960 --> 01:30:47,799
Speaker 1: Is the well, you know, I think that in general,

2095
01:30:47,840 --> 01:30:49,680
Speaker 1: this is the the way if we want to have

2096
01:30:49,720 --> 01:30:51,479
Speaker 1: a way forward in American politics, just to get a

2097
01:30:51,520 --> 01:30:54,479
Speaker 1: little generally, yeah, it has to be predicated on certain

2098
01:30:54,520 --> 01:30:57,599
Speaker 1: basic premises about truth. And that's why I keep saying,

2099
01:30:57,920 --> 01:31:01,600
Speaker 1: forget about you know, categoriesmic is it true or is

2100
01:31:01,640 --> 01:31:04,200
Speaker 1: it not true? I think one of the major failings

2101
01:31:04,200 --> 01:31:06,120
Speaker 1: of the Democratic Party in the last election cycle is

2102
01:31:06,160 --> 01:31:08,000
Speaker 1: the unwillingness to say whether it was true untrue that

2103
01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:10,360
Speaker 1: a boy could become a girl. For example. I think

2104
01:31:10,360 --> 01:31:11,760
Speaker 1: a lot of people looked at that and they said,

2105
01:31:12,120 --> 01:31:15,240
Speaker 1: excuse me, how is this. Forget about the political ramifications

2106
01:31:15,320 --> 01:31:18,280
Speaker 1: or the policy ramifications for just a second, can you

2107
01:31:18,360 --> 01:31:19,759
Speaker 1: say a boy is not a girl?

2108
01:31:19,920 --> 01:31:24,920
Speaker 2: And we can go down And I feel like a

2109
01:31:25,000 --> 01:31:28,920
Speaker 2: year ago, as with Charlie having this conversation, which is remarkable,

2110
01:31:30,400 --> 01:31:33,639
Speaker 2: I'm cured, did you And this is I'm just honestly

2111
01:31:33,640 --> 01:31:35,680
Speaker 2: curious when I'm asking this, I'm not even it's not

2112
01:31:36,160 --> 01:31:39,040
Speaker 2: not a loaded question. Did you or others in the

2113
01:31:39,120 --> 01:31:42,800
Speaker 2: right condemn the Trump policies as it relates to gender

2114
01:31:42,800 --> 01:31:47,240
Speaker 2: affirming care for including a reassignment surgeries in the federal

2115
01:31:47,280 --> 01:31:49,599
Speaker 2: prison system under the Trump administration's first term.

2116
01:31:49,680 --> 01:31:50,880
Speaker 1: I mean, if I'd been aware of them, would have

2117
01:31:50,880 --> 01:31:52,839
Speaker 1: condemned them. My company was the only company in America

2118
01:31:52,880 --> 01:31:55,040
Speaker 1: I believe that on a media level refused to use

2119
01:31:55,040 --> 01:31:58,080
Speaker 1: preferred pronouns for anyone. We use only biological pronouns since

2120
01:31:58,120 --> 01:31:59,960
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, since we launched the company.

2121
01:32:00,360 --> 01:32:02,240
Speaker 2: And I say that because it's just not well known.

2122
01:32:02,280 --> 01:32:06,479
Speaker 2: But the Trump Administration's policies allowed for general assignment general

2123
01:32:06,680 --> 01:32:10,080
Speaker 2: uh firm and care. I've been a hormone treatment. Actually,

2124
01:32:10,120 --> 01:32:14,360
Speaker 2: I think that's change the operations. I mean, yeah, it was,

2125
01:32:14,439 --> 01:32:15,559
Speaker 2: it was in federal policies.

2126
01:32:15,600 --> 01:32:17,519
Speaker 1: Listen, and I think that's wrong. And then I wish

2127
01:32:17,600 --> 01:32:19,639
Speaker 1: that frankly, you you would go further. You've talked about

2128
01:32:19,640 --> 01:32:21,560
Speaker 1: the unfairness in sports, But for me, the bigger the

2129
01:32:21,560 --> 01:32:23,559
Speaker 1: bigger question is not in fairness in sports. The bigger

2130
01:32:23,600 --> 01:32:26,760
Speaker 1: question is whether we should be allowing the administration of

2131
01:32:26,840 --> 01:32:30,440
Speaker 1: chemical or surgical mutilation of minors based on generativesphoria.

2132
01:32:30,479 --> 01:32:33,000
Speaker 2: Well, we're gonna, I mean, Trump administration has long opinions.

2133
01:32:33,000 --> 01:32:36,000
Speaker 2: They've they've sued states like California, many ch other states

2134
01:32:36,040 --> 01:32:39,559
Speaker 2: twenty plus states. Yes, And my position is that's between

2135
01:32:39,600 --> 01:32:43,479
Speaker 2: the physician, it's between the family member and UH and

2136
01:32:43,479 --> 01:32:45,439
Speaker 2: and these these patients themselves.

2137
01:32:45,560 --> 01:32:47,400
Speaker 1: Why are there and are there there are there any

2138
01:32:47,439 --> 01:32:50,040
Speaker 1: surgical or chemical interventions that you would oppose even if

2139
01:32:50,080 --> 01:32:50,920
Speaker 1: the patients.

2140
01:32:51,120 --> 01:32:52,600
Speaker 2: Here, We go. I mean, I know exactly where this

2141
01:32:52,640 --> 01:32:53,240
Speaker 2: debate goes.

2142
01:32:53,760 --> 01:32:55,280
Speaker 1: But I'm asking. I mean, it's it's it's a real,

2143
01:32:55,320 --> 01:32:58,280
Speaker 1: it's a real just because it does have public policy implications.

2144
01:32:58,320 --> 01:33:00,400
Speaker 1: Meaning in the state of California, there is a judicial ruling.

2145
01:33:00,439 --> 01:33:01,360
Speaker 1: We referenced it earlier.

2146
01:33:02,160 --> 01:33:04,400
Speaker 2: Well, that's a different That judicial ruling was ridiculous on

2147
01:33:04,439 --> 01:33:07,800
Speaker 2: this basis. Any teacher, and what you're talking about is

2148
01:33:07,800 --> 01:33:10,880
Speaker 2: a law that I signed as it relates to this,

2149
01:33:10,880 --> 01:33:14,559
Speaker 2: this idea that school you can that you can fire teachers,

2150
01:33:14,560 --> 01:33:19,360
Speaker 2: that you can fire someone for not telling on a

2151
01:33:19,479 --> 01:33:23,559
Speaker 2: child and saying that they're talking about being gay, not

2152
01:33:23,640 --> 01:33:28,240
Speaker 2: just trans issues, any LGBTQ issues, that you can be fired.

2153
01:33:28,479 --> 01:33:30,799
Speaker 2: There's nothing in the law. The law that I signed

2154
01:33:30,960 --> 01:33:34,800
Speaker 2: does not preclude these teachers from telling.

2155
01:33:34,560 --> 01:33:37,400
Speaker 1: The parents, school districts from.

2156
01:33:36,840 --> 01:33:40,599
Speaker 2: Mandating and firing someone for not but but it allows

2157
01:33:40,640 --> 01:33:42,600
Speaker 2: the teacher to make that judgment. On the basis of

2158
01:33:42,800 --> 01:33:45,479
Speaker 2: seeing someone that's being bullied and the requirements they have

2159
01:33:45,560 --> 01:33:46,920
Speaker 2: under the law to keep people safe.

2160
01:33:46,960 --> 01:33:48,559
Speaker 1: As a parent, don't you believe that a teacher should

2161
01:33:48,560 --> 01:33:50,519
Speaker 1: facilitate information to you?

2162
01:33:50,920 --> 01:33:53,840
Speaker 2: Why would that on every basis? I mean, I mean

2163
01:33:53,840 --> 01:33:55,040
Speaker 2: that they should somehow.

2164
01:33:55,400 --> 01:33:59,240
Speaker 1: Teacher is going to call you. I meant safety about safety.

2165
01:33:59,280 --> 01:34:01,360
Speaker 2: The law is pretty clear and is it about, and

2166
01:34:01,520 --> 01:34:04,639
Speaker 2: the teachers have that ability, and the teachers maintain that ability.

2167
01:34:04,760 --> 01:34:06,799
Speaker 2: We didn't deny that. We didn't say to the teachers

2168
01:34:06,800 --> 01:34:09,920
Speaker 2: you cannot no, quite the contrary. This is critical because

2169
01:34:09,920 --> 01:34:15,600
Speaker 2: it's been a lot of misinformation. I mean, the school,

2170
01:34:15,840 --> 01:34:18,839
Speaker 2: you should fire someone and in many cases, look, anyone

2171
01:34:18,880 --> 01:34:22,360
Speaker 2: that's members of the LGBTQ community. How many stories, uh

2172
01:34:22,560 --> 01:34:24,720
Speaker 2: that you've heard of people that say, I went to

2173
01:34:24,800 --> 01:34:27,360
Speaker 2: my parents with my teacher that was a safe place

2174
01:34:27,360 --> 01:34:29,000
Speaker 2: for me in school. There's a lot of grace in

2175
01:34:29,040 --> 01:34:31,000
Speaker 2: this space. There's a lot of testimony in this space

2176
01:34:31,280 --> 01:34:32,880
Speaker 2: that I think should just provide a little bit of

2177
01:34:32,880 --> 01:34:35,439
Speaker 2: grace and humility. It's not a black and white issue.

2178
01:34:35,560 --> 01:34:39,080
Speaker 2: Teachers can still quote unquote turn in a child. They

2179
01:34:39,120 --> 01:34:39,880
Speaker 2: just can't be fired.

2180
01:34:39,920 --> 01:34:43,200
Speaker 1: I mean, but my question on that and again this

2181
01:34:43,280 --> 01:34:46,559
Speaker 1: is a subset of a broader issue is why does

2182
01:34:46,560 --> 01:34:52,519
Speaker 1: the parent not have an absolute moral ability to receive

2183
01:34:52,560 --> 01:34:55,400
Speaker 1: that information and require is there not a requirement there

2184
01:34:55,400 --> 01:34:58,120
Speaker 1: should be a requirement for teachers to turn over that information.

2185
01:34:57,840 --> 01:34:58,639
Speaker 2: Health and safety.

2186
01:34:58,960 --> 01:35:02,640
Speaker 1: Health and safety are if a teacher truly believes that

2187
01:35:02,680 --> 01:35:04,040
Speaker 1: a parent is a threat to a child, they can

2188
01:35:04,080 --> 01:35:05,040
Speaker 1: report it to child services.

2189
01:35:05,120 --> 01:35:07,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, so health and safety is still the standard, so

2190
01:35:07,439 --> 01:35:09,680
Speaker 2: that you maintain that standard. That standard is the law.

2191
01:35:09,720 --> 01:35:11,320
Speaker 1: It's a lot of wiggle room for a teacher to apply.

2192
01:35:11,400 --> 01:35:13,160
Speaker 2: Well, it's also but it's a lot of law in

2193
01:35:13,280 --> 01:35:15,440
Speaker 2: terms of the way of that law and that responsibility

2194
01:35:15,439 --> 01:35:17,479
Speaker 2: to take care of it, make sure your kids are safe.

2195
01:35:17,520 --> 01:35:20,919
Speaker 2: But this idea that people are going to public schools

2196
01:35:21,120 --> 01:35:24,160
Speaker 2: and coming back having surgeries and coming back the next

2197
01:35:24,280 --> 01:35:25,519
Speaker 2: day is absurd.

2198
01:35:25,760 --> 01:35:28,040
Speaker 1: But there are certainly cases in which in which kids

2199
01:35:28,040 --> 01:35:30,360
Speaker 1: are being quote unquote socially transitioned to school without parents

2200
01:35:30,439 --> 01:35:31,600
Speaker 1: knowing about it. I know some of the parents to

2201
01:35:31,600 --> 01:35:35,040
Speaker 1: whom this has happened. I mean, this is the fundamental

2202
01:35:35,080 --> 01:35:36,479
Speaker 1: question that lies at the root of all of this

2203
01:35:36,520 --> 01:35:39,400
Speaker 1: is the question that you're not wanting to answer, which

2204
01:35:39,400 --> 01:35:41,960
Speaker 1: is whether boys can become girls.

2205
01:35:42,080 --> 01:35:44,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just don't. Well, I think for the grace

2206
01:35:44,720 --> 01:35:46,120
Speaker 2: of God, yeah.

2207
01:35:46,000 --> 01:35:48,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I appreciate the sympathy. I always I also

2208
01:35:48,120 --> 01:35:51,000
Speaker 1: feel terrible for is it anybody who's suffering with any sort.

2209
01:35:50,920 --> 01:35:54,200
Speaker 2: Of I mean, I think it's the case generations for

2210
01:35:54,360 --> 01:35:57,400
Speaker 2: the time and memorial you know, God bless I just

2211
01:35:58,080 --> 01:35:58,479
Speaker 2: I don't know.

2212
01:35:58,520 --> 01:36:00,160
Speaker 1: That's hard one. I just don't understand because.

2213
01:35:59,920 --> 01:36:03,759
Speaker 2: I don't know why. Why is it such a I'm curious.

2214
01:36:03,920 --> 01:36:07,880
Speaker 2: I understand the political potency of its politically, but it's

2215
01:36:07,880 --> 01:36:11,320
Speaker 2: just how it's so few. We're talking about so few people.

2216
01:36:11,400 --> 01:36:14,439
Speaker 2: It's not about that that are that are struggling with

2217
01:36:14,439 --> 01:36:17,840
Speaker 2: with with with with gender ident issues. A lot of

2218
01:36:17,920 --> 01:36:21,040
Speaker 2: remarkable people, a lot of wildly successful people, and they've

2219
01:36:21,040 --> 01:36:23,600
Speaker 2: gone in their life, have credible lives. I just I

2220
01:36:23,640 --> 01:36:27,280
Speaker 2: don't know. There's so much hate and bigotry, so much condemnation.

2221
01:36:27,800 --> 01:36:30,200
Speaker 1: Much This is the part where I start to object. Okay,

2222
01:36:30,240 --> 01:36:31,000
Speaker 1: the idea that you.

2223
01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:33,559
Speaker 2: May not be spealing it no like some others. Trust

2224
01:36:34,439 --> 01:36:35,280
Speaker 2: this is the business.

2225
01:36:35,280 --> 01:36:37,400
Speaker 1: There there are lots of terrible people who say lots

2226
01:36:37,400 --> 01:36:39,439
Speaker 1: of terrible things. But yes, it is not an act

2227
01:36:39,479 --> 01:36:41,360
Speaker 1: of bigotry to say that a boy cannot become a girl,

2228
01:36:41,479 --> 01:36:43,559
Speaker 1: nor should my children be taught in K through twelve

2229
01:36:43,560 --> 01:36:45,519
Speaker 1: public schools that a boy can become a girl. That

2230
01:36:45,600 --> 01:36:47,040
Speaker 1: is not an act of bigotry. That's an act of

2231
01:36:47,160 --> 01:36:49,080
Speaker 1: rationality and biological simplicity.

2232
01:36:49,160 --> 01:36:52,240
Speaker 2: I respect your point of view, and you know, but people,

2233
01:36:53,360 --> 01:36:56,280
Speaker 2: good people disagree on this, and a lot of states,

2234
01:36:56,320 --> 01:36:59,200
Speaker 2: not just California, well established rules, by the way, that

2235
01:36:59,320 --> 01:37:02,840
Speaker 2: predate me. Again, this is not where I started campaigning

2236
01:37:02,880 --> 01:37:07,639
Speaker 2: and advocating on these issues, as some suggest. And uh

2237
01:37:07,680 --> 01:37:11,800
Speaker 2: and look, I'm with the governor, Governor Spencer Cox, who

2238
01:37:12,040 --> 01:37:14,679
Speaker 2: said about many of these issues, never so much attention

2239
01:37:14,760 --> 01:37:15,960
Speaker 2: been placed on so few people.

2240
01:37:16,120 --> 01:37:17,920
Speaker 1: And the problem is, I do think that on the

2241
01:37:17,920 --> 01:37:20,040
Speaker 1: electoral level, to go to the politics, it is a

2242
01:37:20,040 --> 01:37:21,320
Speaker 1: barrier to entry for a lot of people.

2243
01:37:21,600 --> 01:37:22,200
Speaker 2: I agree with that.

2244
01:37:22,520 --> 01:37:24,240
Speaker 1: I agree with, boy, you can become a girl. And

2245
01:37:24,240 --> 01:37:26,200
Speaker 1: then just I do agree and realistic and.

2246
01:37:26,280 --> 01:37:28,360
Speaker 2: By the way, and I respect if that's your barrier

2247
01:37:28,439 --> 01:37:31,719
Speaker 2: to then listening to people on myriad of other issues, Uh,

2248
01:37:32,120 --> 01:37:32,559
Speaker 2: so be it.

2249
01:37:32,640 --> 01:37:33,920
Speaker 1: It is what it is. I just find it. I

2250
01:37:33,960 --> 01:37:36,400
Speaker 1: find it strange that even if you wish to have

2251
01:37:36,479 --> 01:37:39,200
Speaker 1: a public policy that pursues something different. We cannot just

2252
01:37:39,280 --> 01:37:41,360
Speaker 1: admit that boys and girls are two different things and

2253
01:37:41,360 --> 01:37:44,000
Speaker 1: that a boy cannot become a girl. Why is this

2254
01:37:44,040 --> 01:37:44,599
Speaker 1: so difficult?

2255
01:37:44,960 --> 01:37:48,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand your point of view, and you know,

2256
01:37:48,680 --> 01:37:51,840
Speaker 2: and I also respect Caitlyn Jenner, you know I do and.

2257
01:37:51,920 --> 01:37:53,760
Speaker 1: Not respect for individuals. No, I can tell you a story.

2258
01:37:53,760 --> 01:37:56,320
Speaker 1: This is there's the way I speaking at university.

2259
01:37:56,439 --> 01:37:58,439
Speaker 2: This is a harder thing for me too, as you

2260
01:37:58,520 --> 01:38:00,880
Speaker 2: may know, I probably do. That's God's son, and it

2261
01:38:01,000 --> 01:38:03,240
Speaker 2: just it's, uh, there's a little more. I just I

2262
01:38:03,280 --> 01:38:05,680
Speaker 2: find the humanity. I find different aspects of this a

2263
01:38:05,720 --> 01:38:07,599
Speaker 2: different layers. This goes back to my sort of truth,

2264
01:38:07,840 --> 01:38:08,960
Speaker 2: trying to know your facts.

2265
01:38:09,800 --> 01:38:11,600
Speaker 1: I mean, here's the story. So I was, I was

2266
01:38:11,640 --> 01:38:13,519
Speaker 1: speaking at the University of British Columbia. This must have

2267
01:38:13,560 --> 01:38:16,200
Speaker 1: been now five years ago or so, and a person

2268
01:38:16,240 --> 01:38:18,760
Speaker 1: who identified as Trands got up at the microphone. And

2269
01:38:19,040 --> 01:38:20,679
Speaker 1: obviously I do a lot of these things on campus.

2270
01:38:20,720 --> 01:38:22,760
Speaker 1: I used to do more of them and this this

2271
01:38:22,840 --> 01:38:26,080
Speaker 1: issue came up. But the person started talking about his

2272
01:38:26,200 --> 01:38:29,400
Speaker 1: family's biological mail. Again, you can use whatever pronouns you

2273
01:38:29,439 --> 01:38:32,160
Speaker 1: shoes use a free country, but you can't force me

2274
01:38:32,200 --> 01:38:34,880
Speaker 1: to use pronouns that I believe are grammatically incorrect.

2275
01:38:35,040 --> 01:38:37,519
Speaker 2: By the way, I'm not sitting here, you know, trying to.

2276
01:38:41,320 --> 01:38:44,640
Speaker 1: Anyway. So this so this, this person gets up and

2277
01:38:44,880 --> 01:38:47,120
Speaker 1: starts talking about his family and how they how they

2278
01:38:47,120 --> 01:38:48,879
Speaker 1: treat him, and I said, you know, i'd really appreciate

2279
01:38:48,960 --> 01:38:50,680
Speaker 1: if we're going to have a conversation on sort of

2280
01:38:50,680 --> 01:38:53,560
Speaker 1: a general and philosophical level about this issue, if you

2281
01:38:53,600 --> 01:38:55,160
Speaker 1: didn't invoke your family, because I don't want to be

2282
01:38:55,160 --> 01:38:57,599
Speaker 1: in a position of having to talk to you about

2283
01:38:57,600 --> 01:39:00,200
Speaker 1: what your family thinks or believes. And the person and

2284
01:39:00,680 --> 01:39:02,800
Speaker 1: continue to invoke their family said, well, you know, my

2285
01:39:02,840 --> 01:39:05,080
Speaker 1: family keeps saying that I am a woman, that I'm

2286
01:39:05,080 --> 01:39:08,080
Speaker 1: a woman. And finally, after about seven eight minutes of this,

2287
01:39:08,280 --> 01:39:10,519
Speaker 1: I said, listen, you've now forced me to the corner

2288
01:39:10,520 --> 01:39:11,960
Speaker 1: where I have to give my opinion. My opinion is

2289
01:39:11,960 --> 01:39:13,600
Speaker 1: that your family is treating you with sympathy, but they

2290
01:39:13,640 --> 01:39:15,559
Speaker 1: don't actually believe that you're a woman because they care

2291
01:39:15,600 --> 01:39:17,360
Speaker 1: about you and they love you, but they will fib

2292
01:39:17,360 --> 01:39:19,720
Speaker 1: to you because they believe that it is better for

2293
01:39:19,840 --> 01:39:22,880
Speaker 1: you or or that you will not hurt yourself if

2294
01:39:22,920 --> 01:39:24,880
Speaker 1: you say this thing that is that is not true

2295
01:39:25,000 --> 01:39:27,000
Speaker 1: the person, I'm very upset, rushed out of the room. Now,

2296
01:39:27,080 --> 01:39:29,360
Speaker 1: normally that's the kind of thing that ends up online

2297
01:39:29,439 --> 01:39:31,640
Speaker 1: as a you know, destroys video kind of thing. I

2298
01:39:31,680 --> 01:39:33,400
Speaker 1: went to the people who are in charge of the event.

2299
01:39:33,439 --> 01:39:35,160
Speaker 1: I had them cut it from the tape because I

2300
01:39:35,200 --> 01:39:37,400
Speaker 1: was worried about the person's mental health status. I appreciate.

2301
01:39:37,479 --> 01:39:39,639
Speaker 1: I called up a person who I knew, who knew

2302
01:39:39,640 --> 01:39:42,160
Speaker 1: the person because they'd mentioned it to me, and I

2303
01:39:42,200 --> 01:39:44,280
Speaker 1: actually had breakfast with the person the next morning to

2304
01:39:44,280 --> 01:39:46,800
Speaker 1: make sure that he was okay, good, free. So my

2305
01:39:46,840 --> 01:39:48,720
Speaker 1: only part way is not what a wonderful person I am.

2306
01:39:48,720 --> 01:39:50,920
Speaker 1: It's that sympathy does not preclude truth telling. And when

2307
01:39:50,920 --> 01:39:53,879
Speaker 1: you're making public policy, it is very important that sympathy

2308
01:39:53,920 --> 01:39:57,080
Speaker 1: not preclude truth telling. And I think that again, it's

2309
01:39:57,080 --> 01:39:58,360
Speaker 1: not just the trans issue.

2310
01:39:58,520 --> 01:39:58,680
Speaker 2: You know.

2311
01:39:58,760 --> 01:40:00,840
Speaker 1: If the idea is that I have to protect my

2312
01:40:00,920 --> 01:40:03,200
Speaker 1: friends and I have to attack my enemies and politics,

2313
01:40:03,280 --> 01:40:07,280
Speaker 1: things get really squirrellly, really quickly, because again, public policy

2314
01:40:07,320 --> 01:40:09,120
Speaker 1: is for everyone. It is not just for subgroups.

2315
01:40:10,080 --> 01:40:13,240
Speaker 2: Ah, I hear you. We just see the world with

2316
01:40:13,280 --> 01:40:15,519
Speaker 2: a different set of eyes on this. I appreciate you

2317
01:40:15,800 --> 01:40:17,960
Speaker 2: of intellectual argument and the sort of soundness and the

2318
01:40:18,000 --> 01:40:21,720
Speaker 2: firmness in that space. I can't help but unpack the

2319
01:40:22,640 --> 01:40:26,439
Speaker 2: relationship to families and people and lives lived and and

2320
01:40:26,439 --> 01:40:29,439
Speaker 2: and the grace and you know, people's lives that are

2321
01:40:29,439 --> 01:40:32,360
Speaker 2: lost and and people that are struggling and going through this.

2322
01:40:32,439 --> 01:40:35,920
Speaker 2: I I just, uh, that's that's that's how and and

2323
01:40:35,960 --> 01:40:39,719
Speaker 2: to me, that does shape the way I make policy

2324
01:40:40,200 --> 01:40:43,599
Speaker 2: because it is it's it's it's it's not just science,

2325
01:40:43,640 --> 01:40:47,760
Speaker 2: it's art. It's it's lived experience. It's reality. And it

2326
01:40:47,800 --> 01:40:52,040
Speaker 2: goes back to sanctuary. Think there's certain lived realities and uh,

2327
01:40:52,120 --> 01:40:54,040
Speaker 2: and and one has to sort of deal with the

2328
01:40:54,080 --> 01:40:56,320
Speaker 2: cards that are dealt as imperfect as things are and

2329
01:40:56,400 --> 01:40:56,880
Speaker 2: life is.

2330
01:40:56,920 --> 01:40:59,240
Speaker 1: And as you know, you know, but you're you're you're.

2331
01:40:59,200 --> 01:41:01,240
Speaker 2: One of these. That's why you got one hundred and

2332
01:41:01,240 --> 01:41:02,400
Speaker 2: eighty IQ. What was it?

2333
01:41:02,760 --> 01:41:03,000
Speaker 1: I do.

2334
01:41:05,479 --> 01:41:07,519
Speaker 2: Jesus? And you can read your book to learn more.

2335
01:41:07,600 --> 01:41:10,360
Speaker 2: By the way, when I was listening to reading Lines

2336
01:41:10,360 --> 01:41:17,719
Speaker 2: and Scavengers, this notion of victimization and envy, the scavenger mindset,

2337
01:41:18,160 --> 01:41:19,960
Speaker 2: I thought you were writing about Donald Trump.

2338
01:41:20,439 --> 01:41:22,360
Speaker 1: Well, I mean when I was on with azro As,

2339
01:41:22,479 --> 01:41:24,200
Speaker 1: I said, it feels like you're talking about a lot

2340
01:41:24,200 --> 01:41:26,200
Speaker 1: of people on both sides, And I said, that is true.

2341
01:41:26,760 --> 01:41:29,040
Speaker 1: I am talking about a lot of people on both sides.

2342
01:41:29,360 --> 01:41:30,880
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, one of the points I

2343
01:41:30,920 --> 01:41:34,040
Speaker 1: make in the book, you know, is that the model

2344
01:41:34,080 --> 01:41:36,040
Speaker 1: of lines and scavengers, it's really about kind of peopleho

2345
01:41:36,040 --> 01:41:39,320
Speaker 1: build versus people who wish to destroy. And the point

2346
01:41:39,320 --> 01:41:41,160
Speaker 1: that I make is that's actually an internal battle inside

2347
01:41:41,160 --> 01:41:43,200
Speaker 1: of all of us. If you go back to the

2348
01:41:43,400 --> 01:41:46,160
Speaker 1: Book of Genesis and the story of Cain and Nabel,

2349
01:41:47,600 --> 01:41:50,000
Speaker 1: it's a fascinating story, obviously for a variety of reasons,

2350
01:41:50,000 --> 01:41:52,240
Speaker 1: which is why it's lasted for several thousand years. But

2351
01:41:52,760 --> 01:41:55,360
Speaker 1: what happens is that that Caine actually initiates the idea

2352
01:41:55,439 --> 01:41:57,920
Speaker 1: of let's let's give sacrifices to God. And then God

2353
01:41:57,960 --> 01:42:00,360
Speaker 1: takes able to sacrifice, but not Cain's and say in

2354
01:42:00,360 --> 01:42:02,920
Speaker 1: the Bible, why that is? That's just what happens. And

2355
01:42:03,080 --> 01:42:06,439
Speaker 1: King gets angry and God actually goes to Candy. He says, listen,

2356
01:42:06,720 --> 01:42:11,120
Speaker 1: you have the ability to fix yourself right, send crouches

2357
01:42:11,160 --> 01:42:13,200
Speaker 1: at your door. But in the word in Hebrew is

2358
01:42:13,280 --> 01:42:15,360
Speaker 1: tim shall you can overcome that. You have the capacity

2359
01:42:15,439 --> 01:42:18,040
Speaker 1: to overcome that, And so in every human heart is

2360
01:42:18,080 --> 01:42:20,880
Speaker 1: the capacity to be the person who builds, makes things

2361
01:42:20,880 --> 01:42:23,360
Speaker 1: strong or makes makes you know, if you're a politician,

2362
01:42:23,439 --> 01:42:25,760
Speaker 1: better policy makes the country stronger in terms of its

2363
01:42:25,760 --> 01:42:29,200
Speaker 1: social fabric. Or the person who's going to grift, or

2364
01:42:29,240 --> 01:42:31,680
Speaker 1: the person who's going to engage in conspiracy theories, or

2365
01:42:31,720 --> 01:42:33,439
Speaker 1: the person who's going to tear things down because they're

2366
01:42:33,520 --> 01:42:36,600
Speaker 1: unhappy with their life and therefore of decided false lee

2367
01:42:36,720 --> 01:42:38,800
Speaker 1: with no evidence that the system is to blame for

2368
01:42:39,120 --> 01:42:41,679
Speaker 1: all that. I see politicians who do both of those things.

2369
01:42:41,880 --> 01:42:43,759
Speaker 1: I think that that sometimes I look at what President

2370
01:42:43,760 --> 01:42:45,360
Speaker 1: Trump says and I think, you know, that's a real

2371
01:42:45,400 --> 01:42:46,960
Speaker 1: lion thing to do. I think that that's sending the

2372
01:42:47,640 --> 01:42:49,280
Speaker 1: sending the b twos to Florid, Oh was a lion

2373
01:42:49,320 --> 01:42:51,880
Speaker 1: thing to do. I think that that grabbing Maduro is

2374
01:42:51,920 --> 01:42:53,880
Speaker 1: a lion thing. And then sometimes he says things and

2375
01:42:53,880 --> 01:42:55,760
Speaker 1: I'm like, that is a scavenger thing to do. So,

2376
01:42:55,960 --> 01:42:58,160
Speaker 1: you know, this week, for example, you know, he's he's

2377
01:42:58,200 --> 01:43:00,600
Speaker 1: doing some populous things on economics thatrobably some members of

2378
01:43:00,600 --> 01:43:03,240
Speaker 1: the left woul would agree with that credit card. I

2379
01:43:03,280 --> 01:43:04,760
Speaker 1: think that that's silly. I think that that is that

2380
01:43:04,880 --> 01:43:09,960
Speaker 1: is again it's externalizing people's debt problem to a place

2381
01:43:10,439 --> 01:43:12,400
Speaker 1: that does not solve the problem, and in fact, is

2382
01:43:12,520 --> 01:43:14,200
Speaker 1: more likely to lead to people not being able to

2383
01:43:14,240 --> 01:43:16,479
Speaker 1: get credit cards. Because obviously, if you.

2384
01:43:16,720 --> 01:43:19,439
Speaker 2: Sound like the head of JP Morgan, what about rolling

2385
01:43:19,520 --> 01:43:23,640
Speaker 2: up all the corporate purchases of private single family owns.

2386
01:43:23,800 --> 01:43:25,479
Speaker 1: I think that that's I think that that is a

2387
01:43:25,720 --> 01:43:28,559
Speaker 1: ridiculous misdirect. Okay, that the fact is that in the

2388
01:43:28,560 --> 01:43:32,560
Speaker 1: state of California, for example, exorbitantly low percentage.

2389
01:43:31,880 --> 01:43:32,920
Speaker 2: Relative to other states.

2390
01:43:32,960 --> 01:43:34,559
Speaker 1: Yeah relative does this for sure?

2391
01:43:34,640 --> 01:43:34,840
Speaker 2: Yeah?

2392
01:43:34,840 --> 01:43:37,639
Speaker 1: Okay, And guess what real estate here really really expensive.

2393
01:43:37,800 --> 01:43:39,839
Speaker 1: And meanwhile, if you go over to Charlotte, North Carolina,

2394
01:43:39,880 --> 01:43:42,080
Speaker 1: where the real estate prices actually have been diving, you

2395
01:43:42,120 --> 01:43:45,000
Speaker 1: actually do have pretty significant corporate ownership. And you were

2396
01:43:45,000 --> 01:43:47,280
Speaker 1: talking about large corporations, not like small mom and pop

2397
01:43:47,280 --> 01:43:49,120
Speaker 1: operations where you own a second home to rent it out.

2398
01:43:49,439 --> 01:43:52,439
Speaker 1: Typically speaking, when a corporation invests in an area like

2399
01:43:52,439 --> 01:43:55,040
Speaker 1: say Phoenix, and then builds up an enormous number of

2400
01:43:55,240 --> 01:43:57,800
Speaker 1: rental units, because that's what happens. They buy let's say

2401
01:43:57,800 --> 01:43:59,519
Speaker 1: a single family home, now they rent it out. Okay,

2402
01:43:59,560 --> 01:44:02,599
Speaker 1: so they just increased the stock of rent right, which

2403
01:44:02,640 --> 01:44:05,440
Speaker 1: means that the rental prices go down, and then corporations

2404
01:44:05,439 --> 01:44:08,080
Speaker 1: typically are investing in areas where it's easier to buy

2405
01:44:08,200 --> 01:44:11,200
Speaker 1: and easier to renovate and easier to build. Like renovating

2406
01:44:11,240 --> 01:44:12,920
Speaker 1: is very difficult in places like New York and in

2407
01:44:12,920 --> 01:44:15,280
Speaker 1: certain parts of California, it's a lot easier in say

2408
01:44:15,280 --> 01:44:17,800
Speaker 1: Austin or Phoenix or Florida. And so what you've seen

2409
01:44:17,920 --> 01:44:20,839
Speaker 1: is actually there is not only zero correlation between corporate

2410
01:44:20,880 --> 01:44:25,799
Speaker 1: ownership of real estate assets and price of rent. For example,

2411
01:44:26,000 --> 01:44:28,599
Speaker 1: in many cases, there's a reverse correlation. And so trying

2412
01:44:28,640 --> 01:44:32,200
Speaker 1: to refocus on look at this terrible it is in

2413
01:44:32,280 --> 01:44:34,640
Speaker 1: black Rock. Blackrack does an own real estate assets in

2414
01:44:34,640 --> 01:44:37,680
Speaker 1: this fashion. But if you're doing at Blackstone and then

2415
01:44:38,200 --> 01:44:41,679
Speaker 1: it's Blackstone's fault that the real estate prices are going up, No,

2416
01:44:41,880 --> 01:44:45,320
Speaker 1: it isn't. And again I think that that's.

2417
01:44:45,160 --> 01:44:48,080
Speaker 2: Why is he pursuing two policies that you vehemently disagree with,

2418
01:44:48,120 --> 01:44:49,880
Speaker 2: because I think that it is failing on the issue

2419
01:44:49,880 --> 01:44:50,439
Speaker 2: of the economy.

2420
01:44:50,439 --> 01:44:52,360
Speaker 1: With the Americ governor, I think that that it is

2421
01:44:52,360 --> 01:44:56,200
Speaker 1: politically beneficial for politicians to tell people that their problems

2422
01:44:56,240 --> 01:44:58,400
Speaker 1: are easily solvable with the stroke of a pen and

2423
01:44:58,479 --> 01:45:00,360
Speaker 1: by blaming somebody who's richer than they are. I think

2424
01:45:00,360 --> 01:45:02,840
Speaker 1: that is a very easy way to get away with

2425
01:45:03,120 --> 01:45:04,320
Speaker 1: really bad public policy.

2426
01:45:04,360 --> 01:45:06,240
Speaker 2: All right, let's talk about it when we're a limited

2427
01:45:06,280 --> 01:45:09,800
Speaker 2: time here. Then, my gosh, we've covered.

2428
01:45:09,439 --> 01:45:11,120
Speaker 1: So much and I know everyone's it's been fine.

2429
01:45:11,120 --> 01:45:15,160
Speaker 2: Wait, haven't we gotten into politics and Nigeria? We can

2430
01:45:15,200 --> 01:45:18,519
Speaker 2: talk about Somali land and we can get into some

2431
01:45:18,560 --> 01:45:21,200
Speaker 2: more interesting, nuanced issues and you know, we didn't even

2432
01:45:21,240 --> 01:45:24,280
Speaker 2: get to Shi And there's there's a legitimately a lot

2433
01:45:24,320 --> 01:45:26,559
Speaker 2: of issues that I think are fascinating that we'll define

2434
01:45:26,560 --> 01:45:28,400
Speaker 2: more things in more ways on more days. But what

2435
01:45:28,400 --> 01:45:31,200
Speaker 2: do you make of I mean, uh, Republicans have no

2436
01:45:31,280 --> 01:45:32,839
Speaker 2: chance in this midterm right.

2437
01:45:33,280 --> 01:45:34,760
Speaker 1: I think that they are in for a world of

2438
01:45:34,840 --> 01:45:37,280
Speaker 1: hurt right now in the midterms. I mean, they're the

2439
01:45:37,280 --> 01:45:41,439
Speaker 1: they're the incumbent party. They have a bare majority. Uh,

2440
01:45:41,840 --> 01:45:44,519
Speaker 1: that alone would put them behind the eight ball. There

2441
01:45:44,520 --> 01:45:46,240
Speaker 1: are not a lot of swing districts that are that

2442
01:45:46,240 --> 01:45:48,200
Speaker 1: are kind of left because of all the redistricting, But

2443
01:45:48,439 --> 01:45:50,320
Speaker 1: the swing districts that that are left seemed to be

2444
01:45:50,320 --> 01:45:52,560
Speaker 1: trending more blue. President Trump isn't on the ballots. He

2445
01:45:52,600 --> 01:45:57,080
Speaker 1: doesn't really have coattails among the low propensity electorate. So yeah,

2446
01:45:57,120 --> 01:45:59,160
Speaker 1: I think that Republicans are gonna are gonna have a

2447
01:45:59,240 --> 01:45:59,799
Speaker 1: rough ride.

2448
01:46:00,120 --> 01:46:02,599
Speaker 2: Scale one to ten. How big a mistake was not

2449
01:46:02,720 --> 01:46:05,080
Speaker 2: expanding the healthcare subsidies or extending them.

2450
01:46:05,200 --> 01:46:07,000
Speaker 1: So I have made the case that on just a

2451
01:46:07,120 --> 01:46:09,640
Speaker 1: raw political level, and again I will say that what

2452
01:46:09,680 --> 01:46:11,280
Speaker 1: I do is different than what you do, right, I mean, like,

2453
01:46:11,280 --> 01:46:13,200
Speaker 1: you're in the podcast space now, so this is my ballgame,

2454
01:46:13,240 --> 01:46:15,920
Speaker 1: But the reality is that you're in the policy making space.

2455
01:46:15,920 --> 01:46:18,080
Speaker 1: And I've said this to Republican and Democratic politicans.

2456
01:46:18,080 --> 01:46:20,160
Speaker 2: That's why I have to bring the human element into this,

2457
01:46:20,880 --> 01:46:21,719
Speaker 2: the human elements.

2458
01:46:21,720 --> 01:46:23,080
Speaker 1: See, this is where I would say, you never removed

2459
01:46:23,080 --> 01:46:25,960
Speaker 1: the human element, governor, But you know the I would

2460
01:46:26,000 --> 01:46:29,080
Speaker 1: say that the one of the things that I hope

2461
01:46:29,080 --> 01:46:31,799
Speaker 1: that people appreciate about the difference is that in podcast

2462
01:46:31,840 --> 01:46:33,719
Speaker 1: space you can be a purist, and in the political space,

2463
01:46:33,760 --> 01:46:35,240
Speaker 1: you get you try to get seventy percent of the

2464
01:46:35,240 --> 01:46:39,160
Speaker 1: buy and so when you are looking at, for example,

2465
01:46:39,200 --> 01:46:42,400
Speaker 1: extending the Obamacare subsidies, it is a political loser obviously

2466
01:46:42,400 --> 01:46:44,600
Speaker 1: for Republicans, and not to extend the Obamacare subsidies and

2467
01:46:44,600 --> 01:46:47,120
Speaker 1: to let it hit a cliff. Clearly, then the question becomes,

2468
01:46:47,120 --> 01:46:50,320
Speaker 1: what can you do that shortens the duration? If you're

2469
01:46:50,400 --> 01:46:52,920
Speaker 1: a conservative, if you're a Republican, what can you do

2470
01:46:53,120 --> 01:46:56,599
Speaker 1: that that creates a soft a softer landing for people

2471
01:46:56,640 --> 01:46:58,720
Speaker 1: who are reliant on those subsidies in a transition to

2472
01:46:58,760 --> 01:47:01,400
Speaker 1: policies that you believe will in general bend the cost

2473
01:47:01,439 --> 01:47:03,760
Speaker 1: curved down in the meantime, because if you have kind

2474
01:47:03,760 --> 01:47:06,200
Speaker 1: of a hard stop, then that's going to affect a

2475
01:47:06,240 --> 01:47:08,320
Speaker 1: lot of people. There's a reason why Purple state Republicans,

2476
01:47:08,360 --> 01:47:11,519
Speaker 1: Purple district Republicans are trying to cut deals right now

2477
01:47:11,600 --> 01:47:14,519
Speaker 1: with Democrats in order to extend those healthcare subsidies. Hopefully

2478
01:47:14,760 --> 01:47:17,400
Speaker 1: in return they will get some provisions on fraud, maybe

2479
01:47:17,439 --> 01:47:21,240
Speaker 1: some release of certain regulations around Obamacare. I think the

2480
01:47:21,240 --> 01:47:24,439
Speaker 1: healthcare system is so complex, it's so mixed. You know.

2481
01:47:25,760 --> 01:47:27,360
Speaker 1: Let's put this way. If you and I were sitting

2482
01:47:27,360 --> 01:47:30,760
Speaker 1: and designing a healthcare system there was none, then I

2483
01:47:30,800 --> 01:47:33,280
Speaker 1: think that we might have very differing ideas of where

2484
01:47:33,280 --> 01:47:36,720
Speaker 1: it goes. But trying to extricate ourselves from what is

2485
01:47:36,760 --> 01:47:39,880
Speaker 1: an incredibly difficult situation, I think that the easiest and

2486
01:47:39,920 --> 01:47:41,800
Speaker 1: dumbest way to do policy is to just keep tossing

2487
01:47:41,800 --> 01:47:43,800
Speaker 1: money at it. But I also think that on a

2488
01:47:43,800 --> 01:47:47,200
Speaker 1: political level, if you never have the power to do

2489
01:47:47,320 --> 01:47:49,400
Speaker 1: better things, then you never have the power to do

2490
01:47:49,479 --> 01:47:50,680
Speaker 1: the better things. You got to get as much of

2491
01:47:50,680 --> 01:47:52,680
Speaker 1: the pie as you can. And that's the nature of pragmatism.

2492
01:47:52,760 --> 01:47:54,439
Speaker 1: As you are constantly talking about.

2493
01:47:54,280 --> 01:47:58,160
Speaker 2: Well said, well, I agree, rather as sentiment, it's interesting.

2494
01:47:58,840 --> 01:48:00,920
Speaker 2: On the issue of subsidy, it's an important point. I mean,

2495
01:48:00,920 --> 01:48:02,559
Speaker 2: we'd have to lower the cost out care. It's why

2496
01:48:02,920 --> 01:48:06,400
Speaker 2: very proud of California we created our own insulin branded

2497
01:48:06,439 --> 01:48:08,960
Speaker 2: drug under cal r X. We're just lowering costs, not

2498
01:48:09,000 --> 01:48:13,280
Speaker 2: subsidizing costs, which means socializing that cost on the rest

2499
01:48:13,560 --> 01:48:17,400
Speaker 2: of the rate payers more broadly, or premium payers. But

2500
01:48:17,479 --> 01:48:23,400
Speaker 2: on the issue of Vance and Rubio Vance or Rubio Ben,

2501
01:48:23,600 --> 01:48:25,800
Speaker 2: I mean in terms of whom twenty eight was, I mean,

2502
01:48:26,240 --> 01:48:27,599
Speaker 2: so I think that look, JD.

2503
01:48:27,720 --> 01:48:30,280
Speaker 1: Vance has already you know, sort of been deemed by

2504
01:48:30,800 --> 01:48:34,240
Speaker 1: Marco Rubios as the presumptive nominee barring some sort of

2505
01:48:34,320 --> 01:48:36,599
Speaker 1: cataclysmic circumstance. In terms of who I tend to agree

2506
01:48:36,600 --> 01:48:38,839
Speaker 1: with more politically, obviously, I would think that the Secretary

2507
01:48:38,840 --> 01:48:41,400
Speaker 1: of State Rubio on foreign policy, I tend to be

2508
01:48:41,400 --> 01:48:44,439
Speaker 1: more aligned with. Yeah, I think that that the Vice

2509
01:48:44,439 --> 01:48:46,679
Speaker 1: President obviously a very high IQ guy. There are certain

2510
01:48:46,720 --> 01:48:48,519
Speaker 1: areas of policy I agree with him on. There are

2511
01:48:48,520 --> 01:48:51,280
Speaker 1: certain areas of policy I strenuously disagree with the Vice

2512
01:48:51,320 --> 01:48:52,960
Speaker 1: president right now, if you have to lay odds, then

2513
01:48:53,320 --> 01:48:56,599
Speaker 1: then JD is the most likely nominee. Things can change. Obviously,

2514
01:48:56,600 --> 01:48:57,200
Speaker 1: it's very early.

2515
01:48:57,320 --> 01:49:01,599
Speaker 2: Who leaves first, Hexit or Pam Bondi.

2516
01:49:02,920 --> 01:49:05,360
Speaker 1: You know again, Yeah, in terms of this is where

2517
01:49:05,400 --> 01:49:06,880
Speaker 1: you get in this sort of the personality side of

2518
01:49:06,880 --> 01:49:09,360
Speaker 1: the business that I care less about. But I think

2519
01:49:09,360 --> 01:49:11,320
Speaker 1: that is significantly more likely the Pam Bondi is out

2520
01:49:11,320 --> 01:49:12,920
Speaker 1: before the Secretary of Defense.

2521
01:49:13,520 --> 01:49:16,799
Speaker 2: Interesting. Thanks for coming all the way out.

2522
01:49:16,720 --> 01:49:18,479
Speaker 1: Hey, thank you, Thanks for having me. I appreciate it's

2523
01:49:18,520 --> 01:49:18,840
Speaker 1: been fun.

2524
01:49:19,160 --> 01:49:23,320
Speaker 2: Ben Shapiro, You're always welcome back home.