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Speaker 1: Quality times with Joseph Scott More Unlike notifying families, which

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Speaker 1: I never got used to, the last one was just

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Speaker 1: as bad as the first one. I can't say that

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Speaker 1: about decomposition. It impacted me. It affected me, but I could,

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Speaker 1: I could explain it to myself. And is not the

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Speaker 1: key I think with anything in life, if you're if

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Speaker 1: you're capable of being able to rationalize it and say, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is what nature does to all of us. It

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Speaker 1: is those elements that are left behind. I think that

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Speaker 1: the real piece to this that we have to hang

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Speaker 1: on to and try to understand as practitioners and people

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Speaker 1: that are into true crime are the practitioners that are

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Speaker 1: working these cases. Have they paid attention to detail even

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Speaker 1: in the most austere circumstances. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and

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Speaker 1: this is body backs on a timeline when it comes

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Speaker 1: to decomposition. Dave, You're you're really what we've discussed at

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Speaker 1: this point. You're really only at this earlier stage. You

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Speaker 1: know where we've got. You know, we talked about blebs,

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Speaker 1: these pockets that appear on the skin. We've got skin

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Speaker 1: sloughing that takes place. It's skin slippage and sloughing, so

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Speaker 1: the skin will slough off, but it's easily just kind

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Speaker 1: of peeled away as well.

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Speaker 2: Let me ask you about that you said when you

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Speaker 2: were talking about slippage, and you you were actually talking

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Speaker 2: to me one time about how you had to actually

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Speaker 2: to get fingerprints, yes from an individual, so you could

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Speaker 2: identify them. That you actually had to use that skin

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Speaker 2: slippage to your advance in trying to identify the person.

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Speaker 2: How does that even have How can you actually get

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Speaker 2: so loose on the top layer there this so then

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Speaker 2: that you could actually utilize that in a way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of folks ask me about this, and

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Speaker 1: I've done it. There's a lot of people have done

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Speaker 1: I'm not some kind of original here, all right, So

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Speaker 1: I'm not breaking new ground. This has been done for

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Speaker 1: years and years. But people I think that people in

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Speaker 1: the general public can't believe that we do this, but

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Speaker 1: we do. And this is referred to specifically as you're

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Speaker 1: talking about the hands, This is what we refer to

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Speaker 1: as de gloving. Now you'll hear trauma surgeons, particularly with

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Speaker 1: people that have been drug behind cars and roll over

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Speaker 1: injuries and all that. You'll you'll they'll talk about the

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Speaker 1: de gloving of the skin, that sort of thing, but

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Speaker 1: degloving as it applies in this context with decomposition, the

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Speaker 1: skin around the hand, even down to the dermous, will

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Speaker 1: get so loose that we can actually, if you look

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Speaker 1: at the heel of your hand, that where your wrist

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Speaker 1: joins into the heel of your hand, and then on

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Speaker 1: the the dorsum of your hand, the back side of

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Speaker 1: your hand as well, you can actually take that glove

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Speaker 1: of skin and gently peel the whole thing off, and

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Speaker 1: it's going to come off inside out. Really creepy. About

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Speaker 1: the creepy thing if that's not creepy enough for me.

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Speaker 1: That I always had a real hard time with is

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Speaker 1: that the fingernails come off with it. Okay, And so

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Speaker 1: the first time you do it, it's one of these

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Speaker 1: things that it's so difficult to get past. But the

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Speaker 1: purpose of this is that that skin is so fragile,

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Speaker 1: and you don't know who the person is you want

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Speaker 1: to try to roll a print. So what we will

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Speaker 1: do is we will put a surgical glove on our

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Speaker 1: own hand. Okay, then we will take the de gloved,

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Speaker 1: those degloved layers off of the decedent's hand and then

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Speaker 1: place them over our hand, and so our hand is

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Speaker 1: like in a latex glove. Then that latex glove containing

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Speaker 1: our hand is inserted into the degloved hand of the decedent,

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Speaker 1: and we can actually roll a print and be more

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Speaker 1: gentle with it. Say, because you use what are called spoons,

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Speaker 1: use post mortem spoons that are constructed specifically to get

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Speaker 1: a print off of a dead body. But the skin

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Speaker 1: is so fragile you have to be very very careful

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Speaker 1: with it. A spoon would not normally work in this

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Speaker 1: particular instance. So and you're also fighting dehydration with this,

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Speaker 1: or what's referred to as desiccation, So you have to

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Speaker 1: be very careful. And I've met every time i've done it,

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Speaker 1: I've met with great success in rolling the print. And

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Speaker 1: just imagine, you know, you see somebody going to the

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Speaker 1: lock up and you have to roll, you know, or

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Speaker 1: maybe if you've ever been fingerprinted for a job, you

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Speaker 1: have to roll your print, all right, And so that's

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Speaker 1: that's what we would do, and it's it's one of

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Speaker 1: those things that has developed over the years in order

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Speaker 1: for us to well. First off, when you're talking about

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Speaker 1: decomposing body, the question you have to ask is why

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Speaker 1: are they decomposing? Why hasn't nobody found this person? And

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Speaker 1: many times with advanced decomposition, you're talking about somebody that

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Speaker 1: they're un they're unknown, they're unidentified. And I was just

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Speaker 1: literally lecturing about this today at Jacksonville State in my

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Speaker 1: in my Clandestine Graves class that I teach. If you

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Speaker 1: don't know the ID of a of a person, you

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Speaker 1: can learn as much as you possibly can through examination

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Speaker 1: about the trauma they've sustained and all these sort of things,

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Speaker 1: and you can look at that person and say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they met the end. They met their end at the

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Speaker 1: hand of another, which is the definition of homicide. But still,

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Speaker 1: if you're working homicide, it's that knowledge is worth nothing

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Speaker 1: if you don't know who the person is, because the

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Speaker 1: genesis of an investigation is to find out who the

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Speaker 1: person is, Who did they roll with, who did they

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Speaker 1: associate with, who are their family members? Where were they

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Speaker 1: last seen, when were they last contacted? And all of

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Speaker 1: this plays into this big cycle. So it's so important

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Speaker 1: for us to get these bodies identified. That's why you know,

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Speaker 1: I say that, you know, with decomposed bodies, you have

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Speaker 1: to be willing to you know, screw yourself to the floor,

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Speaker 1: and as offensive as it is to you and as

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Speaker 1: insulting as it is, you do your job. That's why

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Speaker 1: I always find it laughable if I ever, like if

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Speaker 1: Silence of Lamb is on TV, and there's the one

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Speaker 1: scene in the movie where Jodie Foster and they're in

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Speaker 1: the funeral home when they're putting fixed vapor rub beneath

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Speaker 1: their nose, and these FBI agents are actually doing the

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Speaker 1: work of forensic anth forensic pathologists, which is ridiculous us

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Speaker 1: they do, yeah, right, And you know the problem with

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Speaker 1: that is people ask, how do you get used to it? Well,

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Speaker 1: you get used to it by intoelling the space. You

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Speaker 1: don't fight against it. Did you know, Dave, When I

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Speaker 1: was a very young investigator, there were still pardon me,

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Speaker 1: there were still detectives that would show up at crime

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Speaker 1: scenes that would have the biggest, nastiest, cheap cigars that

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Speaker 1: they possibly could buy and just listen to this, and

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Speaker 1: they would light these cigars on the scene and smoke

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Speaker 1: on the scene of decomposing body. And so you know,

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Speaker 1: you're sitting there and you know, I have an affinity

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Speaker 1: for a good cigar. I like a good cigar It's

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Speaker 1: something I don't do it every day, but it's something

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Speaker 1: I derive great pleasure from when I have an opportunity.

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Speaker 1: So not only are you showing the fact that you're

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Speaker 1: completely uneducated when it comes to trace evidence I've seen

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Speaker 1: because you're walking in with a lit cigar, you're displaying

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Speaker 1: that you have horrible taste in cigars, and so you're

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Speaker 1: subjecting us not only to DCOMP, but you're subjecting us

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Speaker 1: to the smell of the cigar or in the case

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Speaker 1: the silence of lambs thing where you're putting vix vapor

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Speaker 1: rub up your nose. So now you have to smell

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Speaker 1: DCOMP because you cannot defeat DCOMP. I don't care what

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Speaker 1: you do, You're going to have to spell DCOMP compounded

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Speaker 1: with vix vapor rub. I don't know from childhood. Vix

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Speaker 1: vapor rub is a comforting thing, all right, but it's

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Speaker 1: not two things I necessarily want associated. The idea is

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Speaker 1: that you just have to adjust to it, you understand.

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Speaker 1: That's why I always say that it's a natural process.

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Speaker 1: So when we're doing these examinations on the body at

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Speaker 1: the scene, we have to the best way we can continue,

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Speaker 1: you know, down the road because it extends most of

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Speaker 1: these cases that we get there, they're going to extend,

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Speaker 1: you know, way past blebs and skin slippage and purging

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Speaker 1: and all of that stuff. You know, we got into

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Speaker 1: the woods and if you find a body out there,

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Speaker 1: you're talking an individual that maybe laying out in the

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Speaker 1: woods unclothed, and their skin now has gone from a

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Speaker 1: greenish discoloration to almost a black to brown sometimes. And

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Speaker 1: the only way I can really describe it is the

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Speaker 1: skin has a leather like quality and this goes to

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Speaker 1: hydration or desiccation of the skin. Now you'll get desiccation

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Speaker 1: or the drying of the fingertips. That that occurs kind

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Speaker 1: of early on, you know, maybe in the realm of

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Speaker 1: I don't know, four to five days, and it's like

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Speaker 1: you know, when you're little and mom, you know, is

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Speaker 1: looking at your fingers. You've been in the pool too long.

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Speaker 1: Your you know, your fingers are like prunes. It kind

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Speaker 1: of looks like that, you know, they kind of prune

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Speaker 1: up like that. But when you get the entirety of

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Speaker 1: the body that has become dehydrated, now you're in to

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Speaker 1: another realm at this point in time, and you can

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Speaker 1: appreciate it because the skin and a lot of this

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Speaker 1: is dependent upon where you are in the country, Like,

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Speaker 1: for instance, if you're out in the desert Southwest, it

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Speaker 1: has very vegas, that area of Phoenix very low humidity.

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Speaker 1: Are you know, back in California, particularly the desert area

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Speaker 1: very little humidity. So any water that is contained with

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Speaker 1: I don't care if it's a human or if it's

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Speaker 1: any other you know, item that might be that there

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Speaker 1: can take. It's going to evaporate, it's going to go away.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes you'll catch that here in the Deep South,

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Speaker 1: you can catch it in cold temperatures. The cold leads

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Speaker 1: to dehydration many times with human remains, and the skin

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Speaker 1: almost takes on a leather like quality. And you're you're

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Speaker 1: talking and again remember we're going down this linear timeline.

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Speaker 1: We we cannot narrow it down anymore than say with

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Speaker 1: desiccation days to weeks. You see, the further out you move,

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Speaker 1: the broader this estimation becomes okay. So it's it becomes

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Speaker 1: progressively more difficult. And that's one of the big big questions.

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Speaker 1: Like I said earlier, that our friends in law enforcement,

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Speaker 1: they're going to ask the people in forensics, specifically forensic pathology, medical, legal,

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Speaker 1: death investigating? How long?

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Speaker 2: Doc?

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Speaker 1: How long? How long? Well? The best I can give

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Speaker 1: you at this point, because the body is dehydrated laying

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Speaker 1: out here in the open. Weeks maybe, wow, how many weeks?

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Speaker 1: I have no idea. I know that it's longer than

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Speaker 1: a week. It has been multiple weeks more than likely.

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Speaker 1: Maybe we're looking at a couple of months with any

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Speaker 1: other thing in life. You know, longer you you know,

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Speaker 1: you wait, the less clear things are going to be.

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Speaker 2: But now, how is this that you're talking about decomposition?

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Speaker 2: But what happens when somebody dies and they go to

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Speaker 2: the funeral home? Is it the embalming that prevents the

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Speaker 2: body from going through all of these things?

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Speaker 1: Again, we're talking about the yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, I

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Speaker 1: mean step on you there. It's no, it's it uh

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Speaker 1: and uh, you know, funeral workers do a fine job

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Speaker 1: of preserving the body right when that can infuse the body.

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Speaker 1: But here's the rub. And this is just a cold

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Speaker 1: hard fact. If you're you know, people can have closed

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Speaker 1: caskets because of trauma, but there are many times decomposition

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Speaker 1: happens with greater frequency. Then people realize it's like everything

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Speaker 1: and death investigation. People are not aware. You know. I

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Speaker 1: told you the story about my wife when we went

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Speaker 1: on our first date, and she's like, I never thought

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Speaker 1: about death until I met you. Most people don't think

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Speaker 1: about think about death like this, and they don't, you know,

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Speaker 1: many times they have closed caskets because there's nothing. There's

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Speaker 1: nothing that the funeral workers can do, because once you

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Speaker 1: start down this road with decomposition, if it has hasn't

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Speaker 1: been stopped, then there's no going back at that point

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Speaker 1: in time. And some people prefer to have a close casket.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but I'm just saying this is one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons that this might might occur. So for

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Speaker 1: people that work in the mortuary science is they do

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Speaker 1: a fantastic job considering what they're having to do, but

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Speaker 1: they have to get these bodies early. This is not

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Speaker 1: something if you're a month down the road, you can

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Speaker 1: forget it. It's not going to work. There's no magic

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Speaker 1: that they can really and I'm sure I'll get some

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Speaker 1: pushback on that. I don't care, you know, It's just

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Speaker 1: it's the reality of biological change, and so you know,

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Speaker 1: you have a body that is in this state. The

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Speaker 1: big question I have as an investigator always comes back

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Speaker 1: and this always rings true in my ears with decomposing remains.

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Speaker 1: Why is this person decomposing and and he said, well, Morgan,

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Speaker 1: you just said it's because of science. Now that's not

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Speaker 1: the question I'm asking. What about this person has left

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Speaker 1: them in the state to where no one is aware

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Speaker 1: of them, and they have been left alone this long.

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Speaker 1: Now that is a salient question when it comes to

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Speaker 1: an investigation, why are they missing? Or a bigger question

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Speaker 1: is no one missing them? Okay? You know our working

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Speaker 1: premise that we've talked about before and I talked to

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Speaker 1: my students about is that every death is a homicide

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Speaker 1: until proven otherwise. You have to live by that rule.

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Speaker 1: So when you're looking at a body that is desiccated,

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Speaker 1: once you begin to get past that point and they

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Speaker 1: are under the right conditions, Dave, you will actually have

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Speaker 1: a process of natural mummification that will take place with

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Speaker 1: a body. People don't think about that most of the time,

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Speaker 1: with bodies that are are in the state where they

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Speaker 1: can naturally mummify. You know, we think about mummies from

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Speaker 1: the perspective of ancient Egypt and even even those that

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Speaker 1: lived in higher elevations, and I urge anybody out there

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Speaker 1: that's fascinated by burial practices and this sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: take a look at these at these cases that have

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Speaker 1: taken place that they've recovered these bodies out in Peru

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Speaker 1: at those high plateau elevations where there's literally no humidity

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Speaker 1: and you've got bodies there that have been dead for

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Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of years and they're perfectly preserved. It's

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Speaker 1: an amazing thing. The environment dictated that. But we can

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Speaker 1: actually have mumpification that takes place without a body being

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Speaker 1: treated in a specific way, like you're not introducing chemicals,

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Speaker 1: you know, like the ancients did. But once you get

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Speaker 1: past this mum of care, if the and you're not

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Speaker 1: always going to get it, you'll go from a wet

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Speaker 1: decomposition to skeletonization. I was going to ask you, jump, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: How do you miss that? How do you go from

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Speaker 2: okay dead, I've gone through all the process and now yeah,

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Speaker 2: somebody's going to be a mummy and another's going to

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Speaker 2: be a skeleton. Yeah, how does that match up.

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Speaker 1: Well with mumification that goes to relative humidity? You know,

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Speaker 1: what kind of levels of humidity are you experiencing in

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Speaker 1: that environment? And most of the time with a body

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Speaker 1: that has quote unquote mummified. I really don't like that term,

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Speaker 1: but it's the term that's commonly used. You're going to

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Speaker 1: have ideal conditions, ideal environmental biological conditions where they're protected,

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Speaker 1: they're in a protected space, they are in an environment

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Speaker 1: generally in a house closed up, where you're not going

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Speaker 1: to have access first off, to any scavengers that's that

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Speaker 1: can't play into it. You'll see a progression many times

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Speaker 1: of flying insects, particularly blowflies, that we'll set on the body.

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Speaker 1: And you know, one of the things that entomologists do,

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Speaker 1: those that study bugs, they'll go through several life cycles,

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Speaker 1: you know, and then there's in insects are fascinating and

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Speaker 1: we could do an entire episode, we could do an

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Speaker 1: entire month of episodes on entomology. But they have a

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Speaker 1: they have a natural order that they like, you have

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Speaker 1: certain insects that will not be present and will not

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Speaker 1: be present if there is another species present. They have

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Speaker 1: an order that they go in like you're not going

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Speaker 1: to find a blowfly in the presence of a dung

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Speaker 1: beetle there, And it's just this order that occurs in nature,

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Speaker 1: you know, and again that brings us back to bodies

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Speaker 1: beginning to break down. You know, when we get to

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Speaker 1: the point where we have bodies that are either totally

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Speaker 1: skeletonized or partially skeletonized, you know, you're you're looking at

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Speaker 1: a baseline of months at that point in time. And

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Speaker 1: again that that factor of time that comes in here.

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Speaker 1: How have they gone this long in this location? What

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Speaker 1: is it? Did this person separate themselves from the rest

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Speaker 1: of the population or did they live, you know, almost

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Speaker 1: a hermit like life where they didn't have contact with

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Speaker 1: anybody and they're just kind of locked up in their home.

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Speaker 1: And suddenly, you know, somebody says, hey, I haven't seen

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Speaker 1: this individual in a while, and they do a welfare checking.

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Speaker 1: You walk into the house. It's got a foul odor,

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Speaker 1: kind of musty. At this point, it's not quite as pungent,

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Speaker 1: and you have skeletal remains that are there, and it's

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Speaker 1: quite striking, you know, to see this and out in

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Speaker 1: the woods. You know, we've covered on several shows where

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Speaker 1: I talk about scavenger activity and you know, skeletal remains

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Speaker 1: are scattered to the wind, you know, dependent upon what

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Speaker 1: species are around. You know, you have raccoons, and possums

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Speaker 1: that will you know, and dogs that will carry you know,

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Speaker 1: various elements away, and bodies are not completely intact. It's

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Speaker 1: it's a real rarity when you go out to and

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Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be a clandestine burial. A matter

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Speaker 1: of fact, you're a little bit protected if there is

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Speaker 1: a burial. But if you just have a surface deposition

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Speaker 1: of remains that are skeletonized, you're not going to find

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Speaker 1: all the elements. I mean, you're not. It's not going

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Speaker 1: to happen because you can't. You can't. You can't stem

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Speaker 1: the tide of nature, you know, everything that revolves around this,

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Speaker 1: whether it's it's you know, smaller animals or larger animals

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Speaker 1: that are coming in or or you know, any domesticated

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Speaker 1: animal that's in there, pigs rooting about or dogs you

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Speaker 1: know that might have come from a neighbor's house over there.

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Speaker 1: They you know, and isn't that interesting? You know that

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Speaker 1: that smell that for us we find so repugnant for

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Speaker 1: us as a species. I think this comes from higher

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Speaker 1: level thinking. Perhaps we're not drawn to that. We might

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Speaker 1: draw we might be drawn to it to inspect it,

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Speaker 1: to see what it is, and then suddenly retract and

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Speaker 1: run away from it or go call the authorities. That's

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Speaker 1: not what animals do. They get a whiff of something

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Speaker 1: like this and they're on it. I mean, they're heading

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Speaker 1: in that direction and they are not leaving and and

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Speaker 1: you know, but that's that's a natural course of things.

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Speaker 2: So nasty environments come from you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and and that's that's the nature you know,

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Speaker 1: these sorts of things with when it comes to decomposing bodies.

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Speaker 1: And that's that's essential, uh, for any of us that

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Speaker 1: are out in the field. You have to do all

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Speaker 1: of that in your calculations about what you're looking for, uh,

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Speaker 1: what remnant, what remains, what is not there? You have

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Speaker 1: to take stock essentially. That's why you have to have

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Speaker 1: some baseline understanding in my field of you need to

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Speaker 1: be pretty solid antomically, you know, you need to be

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Speaker 1: able to understand what elements are missing from the body

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Speaker 1: that have to be accounted for or you have to

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Speaker 1: explain it or you have to you want to walk

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Speaker 1: that perimeter and look and see if there are you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe some of the elements of the hands or the ankles,

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Speaker 1: or are ribs that are missing. Because animals will take

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Speaker 1: away ribs. They'd love to do that and to get

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Speaker 1: the protein out of So you're fighting this fight, and

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Speaker 1: I guess for me it was as an investigator, it

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Speaker 1: was very pug nut.

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Speaker 2: How do these two relate, you know, where you're going

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Speaker 2: from like a biohazard clean up, you know situation, and

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Speaker 2: you we were just mentioning it about how like in

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Speaker 2: a landfill where it's constantly breaking down, everything there is

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Speaker 2: in a breakdown mode, right, which never occurred to me.

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Speaker 2: You know, we've had a number of we've had a

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Speaker 2: number of cases where men and women of law enforcement

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Speaker 2: had to go to a trash dump to try to

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Speaker 2: find a human being who had been thrown away like trash.

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Speaker 2: It never occurred to me until you explained it how

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Speaker 2: difficult that is. And well, we're talking about that breaking

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Speaker 2: down to the individual when you get to you know,

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Speaker 2: the active decay of stage three leading into stage four?

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Speaker 2: How is it is it possible that bones skeleton actually

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Speaker 2: does break down or yeah, what happens?

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, over let's let's there's a couple of

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Speaker 1: ways that that bone does in fact begin to structurally

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Speaker 1: it's compromised as a matter of fact, just just to

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Speaker 1: paint you the picture of first off bone. Obviously it

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Speaker 1: is very resilient. You know, we have skeletal remains going

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Speaker 1: back eons. You know that are Fla did the.

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Speaker 2: Show about it, you know remember a couple of then

378
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Speaker 2: it was like, I thought you were kidding with me

379
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Speaker 2: when you told me we're going to do the show.

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Speaker 2: And it's like the five three year old bones.

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Speaker 1: The rich Yeah, and and and look it's still with

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Speaker 1: Richard's King Richards uh remains. Uh, You're able to appreciate

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Speaker 1: all you You're able to appreciate his fatal trauma. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: going all that back, and a lot of it is

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Speaker 1: heavily dependent upon the soil composition obviously, where they are

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Speaker 1: found and what elements within the soil, and the soil

387
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Speaker 1: is a soil more acidic or is it more base

388
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Speaker 1: for instance, And over a period of time, then you

389
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Speaker 1: have hydrology that plays into it, the flow of water

390
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Speaker 1: impacting the bone. So you have to have literally the

391
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Speaker 1: perfect the perfect set of circumstances for an entombement, perhaps

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Speaker 1: where a body will be bony structures will still be

393
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Speaker 1: resilient over period of time. I was actually involved in

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Speaker 1: the recovery of a Confederate soldier's skeletal remains that had

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Speaker 1: quickly been buried by his comrades following the Battle of

396
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Speaker 1: Ringold Gap in Georgia, and this young man had died.

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Speaker 1: We estimated he was probably about eighteen years old. He

398
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Speaker 1: had been shot in the back of the head with

399
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Speaker 1: what appeared to be consistent The defect in the back

400
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Speaker 1: of this head would have been consistent with a fifty

401
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: four caliber springfield, which is what the Union troops used.

402
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: His buddies essentially put him in a depressed area in

403
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: the ground and just pushed dirt over him. And we

404
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,959
Speaker 1: recovered his body. And interestingly enough, there was a tiny

405
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:20,120
Speaker 1: little when we found him, and this could have been catastrophic,

406
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 1: but there was somehow an acorn had rolled into the

407
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Speaker 1: bullet hole and a tiny little oak tree was sprouting up.

408
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 1: Now this is let's see, this would have been let's

409
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Speaker 1: see sixty It would have been well in excess of

410
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Speaker 1: one hundred years after he had been dropped there the

411
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Speaker 1: Battle of ringo Old Gap, I think was in eighteen

412
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Speaker 1: sixty four. Dave's teeth were pristine, beautifully white. He didn't

413
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Speaker 1: have like carry stentition or anything like you think of

414
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Speaker 1: from back then with rotted teeth is very young. We estimated.

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00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: I was with a forensic anthropologist. Now many of the

416
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Speaker 1: bones were missing. We didn't have all the components, but

417
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: the key one was there relative to his head. His

418
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: teeth were all intact. But yet I've seen cases where

419
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Speaker 1: particularly if bone is compromised to the point where it's

420
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Speaker 1: broken down, maybe there was a dismemberment, and that core,

421
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 1: the marrow of the bone has been so compromised that

422
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 1: it's a shell of what it had been, and that

423
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 1: you know, that would lead to the bone being compromised

424
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Speaker 1: structurally where you know, it's just not it's not going

425
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: to be as robust and it's not going to exist

426
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: as long as say something that was encapsulated in an area.

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00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 1: You take King Richard the Third's body and let's face it, Dave,

428
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: he was buried inside of a church, an old church,

429
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,120
Speaker 1: an abandoned church, but still a church nonetheless adjacent to

430
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: the choir loft, and it was an entunement, Okay, so

431
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 1: he was partially protected and for you know, hundreds of

432
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 1: years until the you know, Henry the Eighth, you know,

433
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: had the church raised during the Protestant Reformation, and you know,

434
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 1: as it turned out, That's why he's famously called the

435
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: King in the car park because they literally assphalted over

436
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 1: the top of the body and so it was kind

437
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: of preserved in there. But you can have bodies that

438
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: are surface burials or surface abandonments essentially that will go

439
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: down to the skeleton and for a number of reasons,

440
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: you won't find any elements at all. A lot of

441
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: it is just going to go to just dumb blind

442
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: luck as to whether or not you're going to find

443
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: something under normal circumstances. And I used people can't see

444
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: me right now, but I've got normal in air quotes,

445
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: because in depth investigation, there is no normal or ideal circumstances.

446
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: You're always dealing in the abnormal. If you have a

447
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: body in a controlled environment, say for instance, like the

448
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: body farm, where they can in case a body and

449
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: they will start with a fully intact body that's fully

450
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: fleshed out, and then they will watch this body decay

451
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: over a period of time and they have a method

452
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: to keep vermin away. Now you can't keep insects away.

453
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: That's going to happen, but they're not going to impact

454
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 1: the skeletal remains as much as a soft tissue you'll

455
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: still have skeletal remains that will be there, and to

456
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: kind of watch them go through this process. It's amazing

457
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: when you watch like time laps on a decaying body.

458
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: How long it takes, and it's going to be variable.

459
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: I can't you know, if anyone's wondering, well, how long

460
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: does it take? I can't tell you how long it's

461
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: going to take because somebody's dependent upon the environment that

462
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: you're in. My go skeletal after six months. But you

463
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: can have others like where you have the bodies in

464
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: the permafrosts that were buried uh in the I can't

465
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 1: remember which expedition it was in the Arctic they recovered

466
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: those remains, Dave. These were sailors in the British Navy.

467
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: They had died, probably because of lead poisoning because they

468
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: had just discovered canning and they had sealed the cans

469
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: and lead and there was they found. They recovered journals

470
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: from this abandoned ship where the guys were going nuts.

471
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: I think it was like the Captain's lock where they

472
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: were just going out of their mind. It was lead poisoning.

473
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: But anyway, the two first the two first guys that died,

474
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: they buried them. They dug a hole in the permafrost

475
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: covered them up. And man, I'm not saying that, you know,

476
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: you could take them ount and you know, and that

477
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: they would be perfect to view. But you see this,

478
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: and I encourage anybody to go take a look at

479
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: these images. Their bodies are beautifully preserved, not skeletonized at all.

480
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: They still have what the remnant of soft tissue that's

481
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: left behind. All of their hair is intact. Their uniforms

482
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: are intact. You can still appreciate that it is a

483
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: classic pre eighteen fifties British sailor's uniforms. Oh, it is remarkable.

484
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: And the uniforms are made out of wool and linen,

485
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: and it's all perfectly preserved. So it all depends. It's

486
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:25,239
Speaker 1: heavily dependent upon where you are, where you are, and

487
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: so it's you know, and many times, listen, I can't

488
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 1: tell you how many times I've been out on scenes

489
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: with colleagues and we have said, boy, we were really lucky,

490
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 1: and gently that when as that refers to decomposition, we

491
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 1: would say that in terms of we're really lucky that

492
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: we have anything remaining. It's hard for us to truly

493
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: understand how this could actually still be here after all

494
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: of this time. But bone is very resilient. It's not

495
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: as resilient of teeth. So what I tell my students

496
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 1: at Jacksonville State is that if you're looking for a

497
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: carrier for DNA, bone is a leather briefcase and teeth

498
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: are a steel briefcase.

499
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 2: Really that different?

500
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, and teeth are so much more resilient.

501
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: And I hold that if we ever do kind of

502
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: reincarnate any of these animals that you know, mast dons

503
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 1: and all that sort of stuff, I think that perhaps

504
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: with future technology, maybe not the technology we have right now.

505
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: Uh you know, you could probably clone clone, a clone

506
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: a mammoth or I never know the difference.

507
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 2: You're really not going to England. You're going to a

508
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 2: deserted island somewhere off the coast of Florida. It's set up.

509
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 1: Park. Yeah no, no, I'm not. I don't have that

510
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: much time, no motivation, I had no, Yeah, that that's

511
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: kind of That's kind of where I am. I think

512
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: with this process of of decomposition. But listen, it is

513
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: to get past the horror of it, if you, if

514
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: you ever can. I love to talk about my students

515
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: and their their view of the world and the world

516
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: they're going to be entering into and forensics and I

517
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: you know, I've often told them the prize awaits those

518
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,719
Speaker 1: who can bear through the horror of what you have

519
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: to observe, and the prize is what the science is

520
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: going to tell you. And there are not too many

521
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: things more horrific. And I'm talking about you know, they

522
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: are horrible things that we bear witness to in the

523
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 1: immediate where we have you know, poor unfortunate little ones

524
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: that are harmed, and we see those kind of traumatic events.

525
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 1: But the horror of being present in a room where

526
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: the decaying remain, or out in the woods where the

527
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: decay and remain. If you can get past that initial

528
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: shock to your system, the beauty that exist in the

529
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 1: perfection of nature and what it tells us is beyond measure.

530
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks