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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Kate, how are you doing?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well, Paul. How about you?

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Speaker 2: I am I'm doing pretty good myself. So what's been

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Speaker 2: going on?

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Speaker 1: Well, brace yourself. I have been dabbling in fiction. Oh,

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Speaker 1: your eyebrows just went to the ceiling.

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Speaker 2: I know.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe it either, and it might be ill fated.

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Speaker 1: I have no idea, but I've always been interested. Have

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Speaker 1: you been interested in writing fiction or doing some kind

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Speaker 1: of fiction project before?

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Speaker 2: Believe it or not, I actually have written almost a

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Speaker 2: complete I'm going to use air quotes here novel. But

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Speaker 2: prior to retiring, I sat down and I started writing

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Speaker 2: a creative story, you know, loosely based on sort of

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Speaker 2: this blend of multiple cases throughout my career.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and how far did you get? You said, almost, So,

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Speaker 1: what does that mean?

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty much I would say seventy five to eighty

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Speaker 2: percent through. But what I found, because it's multiple plot

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Speaker 2: lines that I started losing track of where I was at,

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Speaker 2: and it was like, how am I going to tie

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Speaker 2: this together? You know, and writing you know, fiction I found.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I truly enjoyed it. It was sort of

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Speaker 2: like just this thing to express myself and create my

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Speaker 2: own little universe. But it also was very, very challenging.

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Speaker 2: So I can only imagine, you know, with with what

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Speaker 2: you're trying to do, it's probably orders of magnitude, much

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Speaker 2: more sophisticated than what I was doing back in the day.

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Speaker 1: Sophisticated is not the word I would think of. But

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Speaker 1: I tried a murder board that I have a corkboard

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Speaker 1: in my room that I tried to create in the

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Speaker 1: master bedroom. I tried to create as a murder board,

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Speaker 1: and now it's kind of devolved into a photo inspiration board.

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Speaker 1: Of where locations in my head would be, which is

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Speaker 1: also equally useful. But I do think when you're trying

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Speaker 1: to create a narrative that's complicated. That's why I was

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Speaker 1: so in love with American Sherlock, with Oscar Heinrich, because

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Speaker 1: here he just sort of like he had it. It's

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Speaker 1: in his case files. I didn't have to figure anything out.

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Speaker 1: And fiction is harder than you would think it really is.

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Speaker 1: But I do think it's I think I agree with you.

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Speaker 1: It's been pretty satisfying for me so far. But you

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Speaker 1: would think it would be kind of a no brainer

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Speaker 1: for people like you and I who deal with this

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff all the time, especially with the amount

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Speaker 1: of material historical material I read too. But boy, it's

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Speaker 1: not that easy. I have a lot of respect for

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Speaker 1: people who write really good detective or Agatha Christie kind

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Speaker 1: of who done it stuff. It's complicated, isn't it?

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Speaker 2: Well? What is? And you know, like for me, the

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Speaker 2: big challenge, you know, like the plot lines because of

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Speaker 2: the cases I've worked, you know, I could stitch together

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Speaker 2: sort of an overarching story arc, if that's the right

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Speaker 2: way to say it. But it's it's creating interesting characters

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Speaker 2: and you know, for me, it's the dialogue. I suck

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Speaker 2: at the dialogue. I've got the most cheesy dialogue you've

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Speaker 2: ever heard.

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Speaker 1: I write in my book in American Sherlock about Oscar Heinrich.

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Speaker 1: He tried fiction and it was terrible. It was terrible,

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Speaker 1: and his dialogue was awful. And you would have thought

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Speaker 1: this man would have been brilliant. And I'm not drawing

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Speaker 1: a parallel between you and high Rich, but but he

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Speaker 1: really did struggle with that. And I don't know if

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Speaker 1: that is like it was like the vernacular that was

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Speaker 1: throwing him off, or you know, Heinrich had a problem,

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Speaker 1: had a lot of interpersonal issues with different people, and

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Speaker 1: maybe that made it hard for him to communicate literally

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Speaker 1: in life, let alone on the page. So what do

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Speaker 1: you think your problem is? You just I'm finding the

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Speaker 1: right words, right?

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Speaker 2: What it is? It's it's trying to make it sound natural. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but also you want it to be engaging and like

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Speaker 2: for me, you know, I'm not a like a witty conversationalist.

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Speaker 1: As you are. No pause, No that's not true. I

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Speaker 1: really think you are. You you can be very clever.

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Speaker 2: You are well, So I'm.

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Speaker 1: Gonna correct that right now.

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Speaker 2: And so when I would write something, it was almost

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Speaker 2: like a you know, like a Jack and Jill, a

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Speaker 2: type of kids book. And I was like, God, this

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Speaker 2: is the most juvenile dialogue two people ever had.

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Speaker 1: Oh where do you think he went? He said the detective,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, said the witness.

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Speaker 2: Pretty much.

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Speaker 1: I find that charming. Maybe you and I can collaborate

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Speaker 1: on something. Although I'm not sure I'm going to be

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Speaker 1: much better, we'll see. I find it to be a

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Speaker 1: really interesting outlet. You know. I talk about this a

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Speaker 1: lot when people ask why I do so many different things,

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Speaker 1: podcasting and writing books and teaching and all of that,

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Speaker 1: and I just say, I just like to be a

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Speaker 1: good storyteller, and why limit myself to you know, one area,

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Speaker 1: only being a good podcaster, only being a good author

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Speaker 1: or documentary filmmaker whatever, you know, fiction film? Why limit yourself?

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Speaker 1: And so I feel like that too. I used to

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Speaker 1: kind of say to myself, no, I can't What are

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Speaker 1: you thinking? You can't do that? I don't you know,

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Speaker 1: that's not in your wheelhouse. And now I'm kind of like,

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Speaker 1: we'll screw that. I can try it and maybe it

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Speaker 1: will work and maybe it won't. But at least try,

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Speaker 1: and I try to pass it on to my kids.

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Speaker 1: So this is a try and we'll see how it goes.

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Speaker 1: But I'm I really like it.

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Speaker 2: I bet it will go amazing. I think you know,

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Speaker 2: one of your strengths is storytelling, and you know this

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Speaker 2: is where just in the you know, the episodes that

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Speaker 2: we've done to date. You know, I don't know how

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Speaker 2: much our listeners truly appreciate how you take in essence,

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Speaker 2: bullet points and are able to off the cuff tell

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Speaker 2: a story in real time that I'm listening to and

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Speaker 2: that the listeners are listening to. So you you truly

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Speaker 2: have a gift with that for sure.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you. I appreciate it. And you know the

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Speaker 1: reason I'm bringing this up for this particular episode is

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Speaker 1: this story that we are about to delve into is bananas.

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Speaker 1: That's the only way to describe it. And I don't

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Speaker 1: think I could have made it up. This would be

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Speaker 1: an excellent inspiration for some true crime fan to use

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Speaker 1: as a jumping off point for a good novel. But this,

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Speaker 1: this is a story that's worthy of a two parter

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Speaker 1: and it is really kind of off the rails. This

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Speaker 1: is not only a who done it. It's a what

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Speaker 1: happened and is this person alive? And why? I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's just it's every who, what, when, where? Why question

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Speaker 1: is all in this story and not answered for kind

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Speaker 1: of a long time. So it's which You're right up

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Speaker 1: your alley. It's a good mystery.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I'm ready to sink my teeth into it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's set the scene. This is a great time period,

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirties. Love it, love it, love it. Nineteen thirties.

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Speaker 1: This is September twenty fifth, nineteen thirty seven, and we

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Speaker 1: start out with what I consider to be a pretty

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Speaker 1: theatrical opening, which is an older man, a seventy two

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Speaker 1: year old man named Charles Ross, and he's behind the

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Speaker 1: wheel of his car, and he is driving in a

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Speaker 1: suburb of Chicago. So nineteen thirty's Chicago. Just I mean,

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Speaker 1: I love it. You're nod in your head. That is

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Speaker 1: just like a film ready to go, isn't it already?

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Speaker 1: I haven't even gotten to the details.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I'm just envisioning al Capone and those

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Speaker 2: types of gangs that were running the streets in Chicago

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Speaker 2: back in the day, you know, and of course with

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Speaker 2: what Hoover was trying to do in terms of trying

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Speaker 2: to suppress that gang activity. From a law enforcement perspective.

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Speaker 1: We know Hoover. We're going to talk about him later.

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Speaker 1: He's sort of a hero here. You know, he is

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Speaker 1: the FBI character coming in. But he's a problematic character

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Speaker 1: in history. Obviously they found out there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of corruption after he died. There's all kinds of things

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Speaker 1: about Hoover, but in this story he's a positive. So

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Speaker 1: we're already very atmospheric, which I love. Nineteen thirty seven,

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Speaker 1: we're in Franklin Lake, which is a suburb of Chicago,

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Speaker 1: and this older man, seventy two year old Charles ross Is.

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Speaker 1: He's driving in his car and he's on North Avenue.

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Speaker 1: He is driving towards the city. He's with his former

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Speaker 1: secretary who is a close friend named Florence Fryedge. And

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Speaker 1: she's forty years old. So he's seventy two, she's forty.

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Speaker 1: Not telling you if that's important or not right now,

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Speaker 1: we just know there are two people in the car.

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Speaker 1: He is important because he has a lot of money.

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Speaker 1: He's retired. He was the president of a company called

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Speaker 1: the George S. Carrington greeting card manufacturing company which was

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Speaker 1: based in Chicago. He had been a druggist, but he

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Speaker 1: had just been wealthy from real estate investing for most

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Speaker 1: of his life. So this is somebody who you know,

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Speaker 1: he's driving with his former secretary. He has a lot

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Speaker 1: of money. Already, we see kind of bad things happening

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Speaker 1: one way or the other. There's a wealthy man and

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Speaker 1: then there's a woman who we know is sort of

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Speaker 1: a natural target in this situation. And we're in gangster land.

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Speaker 1: So see what I mean why this is already it's

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Speaker 1: instantly kind of a good inspiration for some sort of

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Speaker 1: fiction series.

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Speaker 2: Well for sure, because now you know, I'm my mind

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Speaker 2: is twirling because obviously you're going to be telling a

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Speaker 2: story in which a crime occurs. And so now, okay,

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Speaker 2: so what is going on? We have potential financial motive

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Speaker 2: with Ross's potential connections, maybe that dives into the underworld

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Speaker 2: within the gangs that were operating the streets at the time.

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Speaker 2: Then do we have a sordid affair going on between

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Speaker 2: this seventy two year old man and this forty year

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Speaker 2: old woman and you know, does she have a significant

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Speaker 2: other that could be jealous as a result of this relationship.

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Speaker 2: So now I'm starting to tease a part. Okay, there's

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Speaker 2: multiple lanes that when a crime occurs, and I know

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Speaker 2: you're going to be telling me there's going to be

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Speaker 2: a crime, Okay, what lane am I initially going to

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Speaker 2: think is the reason that I need to drive down

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Speaker 2: or the investigative path I need to dive down to

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Speaker 2: try to figure out why the crime occurred.

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Speaker 1: There are, in fact many lanes with this, And I

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Speaker 1: want to preface this by saying that I'm going to

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Speaker 1: ask you questions about what the would be victims do

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Speaker 1: in this situation, and it is not meant to victim blame.

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Speaker 1: It's meant to just say, is this what you would

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Speaker 1: recommend to people? What would you do in this situation

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Speaker 1: if you're a lay person and you're not somebody who's

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Speaker 1: in law enforcement. So before I drive you completely mad

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Speaker 1: by not telling you what's going on.

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Speaker 2: Well, let me at least address that, because I know

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Speaker 2: for me, victim blaming is a that is a very

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Speaker 2: distinct type of commentary. But risk assessment, what we do

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Speaker 2: in law enforcement is completely different. It is not putting

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Speaker 2: blame on the victim. It's assessing. Okay, the victim is

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Speaker 2: in this situation, how does that elevate the victim's risk?

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Speaker 2: The victim has a certain lifestyle, how does that elevate

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Speaker 2: the victims It doesn't mean that the victim is responsible

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Speaker 2: for the crime. When I see victim blaming, when that

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Speaker 2: term is used, that's when somebody is saying they did

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Speaker 2: something that caused them to be a victim of crime. No,

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Speaker 2: it's the offender that causes the crime to occur, not

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Speaker 2: the circumstances that the victim has found them in. That

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Speaker 2: just is risk assessment by somebody like me, as I'm

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Speaker 2: trying to determine why did this person become a victim

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Speaker 2: of a crime.

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Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you, I had to put myself

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Speaker 1: in this situation several times and think, well what would

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Speaker 1: I do? So here we go. Charles and Florence are driving.

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Speaker 1: He notices that there's a car tailing him and they've

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Speaker 1: been driving pretty closely behind him for a while. The

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Speaker 1: headlights seem unusually bright, and this is nighttime, so it's

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Speaker 1: not unusual for the headlights to be on, but Charles

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Speaker 1: is alarmed for whatever reason. He says to Florence, the

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Speaker 1: former secretary, I don't like the look of this car,

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Speaker 1: and I don't don't know why they're tailing me so closely.

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Speaker 1: I don't want them to hit me. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: just pull over and let them pass, okay. So he's

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Speaker 1: just saying, I'm just going to move over to the

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Speaker 1: shoulder or whatever and let them go around me. I

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Speaker 1: would assume this is I mean, just from the beginning,

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Speaker 1: this is fine, right, I mean, somebody's right behind you,

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Speaker 1: you're moving forward. He's not saying I'm going to stop

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Speaker 1: the car. He's just saying I'm just going to move

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Speaker 1: over and let him go past me. But he's clearly

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Speaker 1: nervous about this. I feel like I hear about road

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Speaker 1: rage incidents where it doesn't matter if the person pulls

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Speaker 1: over to let the other person pass, bad things can

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Speaker 1: happen while in motion. It just scares me to death

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Speaker 1: to even think about having somebody behind me feeling like

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Speaker 1: a threat and not knowing what to do when you're

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Speaker 1: on a single lane road, which is what this sounds like.

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Speaker 2: Why is Charles immediately concerned about this car versus. You know,

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Speaker 2: if you're just driving and you see somebody who's now

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Speaker 2: tailgating you and go out, okay, that's too close to comfort.

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Speaker 2: I'm just going to let them pass. You wouldn't naturally go, oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm nervous about this. Somebody doesn't look right about this car. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: So that to me is a little bit informative in

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Speaker 2: terms of Charles has something happening in his life that

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Speaker 2: he has concern about that possibly is elevating his risk.

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Speaker 2: And the fact that we know that he made that

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Speaker 2: statement tells me, Well, Florence is a witness in this case.

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Speaker 1: You're right, So Florence is concerned too, She says, I agree,

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Speaker 1: move over. He moves over to what we presume would

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Speaker 1: be the shoulder, and the car pulls around him and

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Speaker 1: pulls in front of him and blocks him, so effectively

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Speaker 1: stopping the car so that Charles doesn't run into the

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Speaker 1: back of this car. So he's blocked in. Florence says,

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Speaker 1: because she is a witness, she says that a young man,

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Speaker 1: and this is her only description, a young man with

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Speaker 1: curly hair and a pointed face jumps out of the car.

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Speaker 1: This guy runs over to Charles's window to get Charles

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Speaker 1: to roll down the window. Because Charles is not going

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Speaker 1: to roll down the window. The man with the pointed face,

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Speaker 1: taps a revolver on the window and threatens to shoot

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Speaker 1: him through the window. So, I mean, on my notes,

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Speaker 1: I'm questioning why not drive off? And now I'm thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: he's walked in. I don't know what this lane is like,

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Speaker 1: and I can tell you the name of it, and

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Speaker 1: it might have changed then, But it seems like according

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Speaker 1: to Florence, there was nowhere for him to go. There

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Speaker 1: was nowhere to drive off to, essentially. But well, boy,

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Speaker 1: I mean, what a scary situation.

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Speaker 2: What I'm wondering is how long and what path did

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Speaker 2: Charles take in this vehicle? And did this man in

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Speaker 2: the car either follow them until they got into a

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Speaker 2: length or stretch of road in which now the offender

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Speaker 2: knew he could block effectively blocked Charles by getting in

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Speaker 2: front of him. It doesn't sound like the offender did

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Speaker 2: anything proactive force Charles to pull over. He's just driving

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Speaker 2: aggressively behind him, and Charles chose to pull over along

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Speaker 2: at stretch of road in which, in essence, now he

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Speaker 2: doesn't have options. You see this man block you, It's

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Speaker 2: like you got to get out of there. The car

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Speaker 2: is a death trap. Bullets pass so easily, not only

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Speaker 2: through the windows of vehicles, but through doors of windows,

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Speaker 2: through the trunk of the car. I mean, basically, it's

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Speaker 2: your engine block that is going to prevent a bullet

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Speaker 2: from actually penetrating into the cab. And so, in essence,

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Speaker 2: Charles and Florence are sitting ducks. If this man decides

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Speaker 2: to shoot.

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Speaker 1: Well, Charles doesn't want to take a chance, especially with

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Speaker 1: Florence in the car. I'm assuming she's panicked. He says,

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Speaker 1: get out of the car. I'm gonna shoot you through

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Speaker 1: this window. And Charles gets out of the car and

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Speaker 1: the man searches him and grabs him and says to Charles,

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Speaker 1: this is a kidnapping. My boss told me to bring

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Speaker 1: you along. And so now I'm looking at this and

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Speaker 1: wondering is something going to happen with Florence. Also, there's

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Speaker 1: only one man, and he has grabbed this older man

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Speaker 1: who is seventy two and says I'm kidnapping you. Does

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Speaker 1: this sound targeted? It must be targeted. He must know

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Speaker 1: who this guy is.

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Speaker 2: My suspicion is he may not necessarily know this man

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Speaker 2: with the revolver. This could be somebody who's been hired

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Speaker 2: or an underling. But it sounds like the individual ordering

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Speaker 2: the kidnapping is probably somebody Charles has a prior relationship

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Speaker 2: with in some capacity, whether it be let's say a

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Speaker 2: business partner, a partner in crime, owes money to something

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Speaker 2: along those lines, would be my guess. I think it's

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Speaker 2: striking that this man is abducting Charles, and now you

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Speaker 2: have Florence who sees this man yep, and I'm assuming

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Speaker 2: he doesn't kill Florence.

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Speaker 1: Well, I was worried about Florence as I started to

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Speaker 1: get into this, because I thought, well, I mean, one

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Speaker 1: if this is going to be a crime of opportunity

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Speaker 1: and he's going to sexually assault her, but it doesn't

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Speaker 1: sound like this is going to be his motive. He

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Speaker 1: really wants this rich guy. So she is completely a wreck,

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Speaker 1: and she is trying to negotiate with this guy with

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Speaker 1: the pointed face. She's reasoning with him, and she says,

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Speaker 1: please do not do anything to him. He has a

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Speaker 1: really bad heart. I have eighty five dollars, which by

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Speaker 1: the way, is almost twelve hundred dollars today, and you

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Speaker 1: can have it. Just leave him alone, please and let

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Speaker 1: us drive off. And the kidnapper looks at her and says,

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Speaker 1: are you his girlfriend or his sweetheart? And she said,

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Speaker 1: I'm just his friend. And I thought, what an odd

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Speaker 1: question to ask a woman who is sitting with the

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Speaker 1: man that you're clearly planning to take a hostage.

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Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, why take the time to even engage

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Speaker 2: with that woman if you're there to kidnap you want

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Speaker 2: to be in and out right. Yeah, he's already taking

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Speaker 2: the risk of leaving her alive at least, you know,

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Speaker 2: he's made it decision. And he may not have even

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Speaker 2: known that Florence was in this vehicle at the time.

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Speaker 2: You know, he gets out of his vehicle to kidnap

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Speaker 2: Charles and now is not necessarily even thinking straight. He's

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Speaker 2: he's on a mission. The offender is there to get Charles,

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Speaker 2: and all of a sudden there's Florence there now to

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Speaker 2: ask well, who are you yet? Are you the girlfriend

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Speaker 2: or sweetheart? Yet? Why is he asking that?

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Speaker 1: And it complicates things her being there, So then I

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Speaker 1: was wondering how this was going to go for Florence.

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Speaker 1: She says, we're just friends, and I just want to

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Speaker 1: clarify right off the top, Charles is married. His wife

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Speaker 1: had gone on record and said they truly are just friends.

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Speaker 1: I have never ever thought that there was anything happening

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Speaker 1: between them. The relationship is that Charles retired, but Florence

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Speaker 1: is still at the greeting card company where he owned,

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Speaker 1: and so he had not sold his interest yet in

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Speaker 1: this company. So he meets with Florence, you know, once

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Speaker 1: a week to be briefed on what's happening at the company.

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Speaker 1: And the two had been returning to Chicago from one

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Speaker 1: of their meetings. They had dinner at the Fargo Hotel

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Speaker 1: in Sycamore, Illinois. So you know, the wife just says

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Speaker 1: later on, take that off the table right now, that

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Speaker 1: this was some sort of weird personal thing. And I

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Speaker 1: just have to say, knowing the rest of the story,

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Speaker 1: I would say that that is the case. Florence is

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Speaker 1: a witness, though, and she does give us a lot

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Speaker 1: of clarity. Thank goodness. Let me just show you, just

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Speaker 1: because I like to. Here's a photo, because I know

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Speaker 1: you love photos, because we don't get them very often.

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Speaker 1: Here's a photo. This is Charles and his wife, just

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Speaker 1: so you can put, you know, names to faces. He

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Speaker 1: just looks like a typical older man and she looks

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Speaker 1: like a typical older woman. And I know you like

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Speaker 1: to see any kind of a sense for how big

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Speaker 1: he might be, you know, if he's broad or not

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Speaker 1: and he what do you think?

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Speaker 2: Well, it is hard to tell. I think you know.

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Speaker 2: I'm looking at you know, this couple with Charles on

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Speaker 2: the left. He looks actually he's dressed in what appears

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Speaker 2: to be a suit. He's got a neck tie. He

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Speaker 2: looks very distinguished looking. I would say the same of

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Speaker 2: Missus Ross is she in this photo is also dressed nicely.

390
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Speaker 2: In terms of Charles, you know, I can't really get

391
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Speaker 2: a sense in terms of like kids see a robust mail.

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Speaker 2: If let's say there's now a combat situation where this

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Speaker 2: offender and Charles get into a grappling match or you know,

394
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Speaker 2: they're now fighting. You know how well Charles could defend himself.

395
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Speaker 2: You know from this photo I wouldn't be able to

396
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Speaker 2: determine anything well.

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Speaker 1: And you know the side note that I want to

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Speaker 1: remind you of, Florence has said over and over again

399
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Speaker 1: he has a bad heart. Stop scaring him, Stop scaring him.

400
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Speaker 1: So the kidnapper looks at Florence after she says we're

401
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Speaker 1: just friends. Now, I want to give a shout out

402
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Speaker 1: to we have another researcher who is wonderful. Her name

403
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Speaker 1: is Alie Elkin, and I had to ask her a

404
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Speaker 1: couple of questions. And here's what I had to find.

405
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Speaker 1: The kidnapper. The man with the pointed face jabs his

406
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Speaker 1: gun at Florence's shoulder and says, can he stand a touch?

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Speaker 1: For a quarter of a million dollars? And I said

408
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Speaker 1: to Ali, what the hell? What does that even mean?

409
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Speaker 1: Do you know what that can you guess what that means?

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Speaker 2: Well, he's saying this after Florence talks about he has

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Speaker 2: a weak heart, and so I imagine the term or the

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Speaker 2: phrase can he stand a touch? I'm kind of extrapolating

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Speaker 2: that may have been a phrase I was more commonly

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Speaker 2: used within a maybe certain segment of society, maybe within

415
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Speaker 2: you know, we started out talking this episode about the mob.

416
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Speaker 2: You know, it's just a slaying phrase, but it sounds like,

417
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Speaker 2: well he has a weak heart, Well can he at

418
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Speaker 2: least hold up for a period of time? And here's

419
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Speaker 2: the amount that is going to be asked for, you know,

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Speaker 2: in order to get him back, to get him back safe.

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Speaker 1: Ali believes, looking through all of her research, it's gangster

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Speaker 1: speak for does he have quick access to a quarter

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Speaker 1: of a million dollars.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I have never.

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Speaker 1: Understood gangster speak, but we get a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a tutorial in this story. So that is it. So really,

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Speaker 1: the takeaway from this is the quarter million dollar part.

428
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Speaker 1: I could do a quick search, but would have been

429
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Speaker 1: a gazillion dollars. Now it would have been a lot.

430
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Speaker 2: But he's not making any any statement of you get

431
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Speaker 2: me that quarter million dollars, he will be returned safe.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't. She essentially says, I don't know, leave him alone,

433
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 1: and the kidnapper snatches the eighty five dollars from Florence.

434
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 1: He tells her to lie down across the front seat

435
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,680
Speaker 1: of the car. Of course, says, don't call the police,

436
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 1: and then he drags Charles to his own car, which

437
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 1: someone else is driving. But Florence can't identify who this is.

438
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 1: She pops her head up long enough to see them

439
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 1: driving off. She is, of course petrified. Let me ask

440
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 1: you this, what should Florence do next? Because there are

441
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 1: a couple of ops here. What would you tell somebody

442
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 1: to do next?

443
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:05,959
Speaker 2: Well, part of it is going to be, you know,

444
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 2: dependent upon the environment. But the vision that I'm having,

445
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,880
Speaker 2: it's at night. This is a single lane road. I'm

446
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 2: assuming that Florence is going to be able, you know,

447
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 2: when Charles is subducted, that the car is still drivable,

448
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 2: that Florence would be able to drive the car away. Yes, Now,

449
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 2: if it's a single lane road, of course, she runs

450
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 2: the risk of driving right up into the offenders if

451
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,879
Speaker 2: they decided to stop and see if she listened or not.

452
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 2: And of course this is well before the days of

453
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 2: cell phones, so it's not like she can call the

454
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,119
Speaker 2: police right away. I'm assuming that this is in the

455
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 2: days before there were phone boosts that were you know,

456
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 2: readily available. You know, so she probably has to drive

457
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 2: a ways before she could even access a phone to

458
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 2: be able to notify authorities. Under these circumstances, I think

459
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 2: Florence would be best driving the car the opposite direction

460
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,719
Speaker 2: the offenders went on off and drive straight to a

461
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 2: law enforcement station, or straight to if she sees a

462
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 2: patrol car, you know, flag down that officer and now

463
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 2: say this has happened.

464
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 1: This is not what Florence does.

465
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 2: Oh okay, that doesn't sound good.

466
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: That sounds like a good idea, But she does not

467
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: do that. She goes in the same direction she decides

468
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 1: to tail them. Okay, now I know you're ready to

469
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 1: say something.

470
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 2: She knows that one of the offenders has a gun.

471
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 2: What is she going to do? In reality, she is

472
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 2: elevating her risk doing this. So maybe her intent is

473
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,679
Speaker 2: to follow them and see where they go, But is

474
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 2: she capable of that type of surveillance without being spotted,

475
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 2: especially on an isolated road. She has to get them

476
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 2: in vision to be able to see where they go. Well,

477
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 2: if she gets them in vision, they can see her,

478
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 2: you know, and so they just stop and take her out.

479
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 2: You know, this is I think a very poor decision

480
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 2: on Florence's part.

481
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: I like the intent, which is to help her friend,

482
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 1: her former boss. She was trying to save him. Sure,

483
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: So what she does is she tries to be smart,

484
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 1: of course, and follows them from a long way away.

485
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 1: But eventually they get away from her. You know, Now

486
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 1: she's lost precious time. She does make it to a

487
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 1: phone to be able to call the police, and the

488
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: police call Charles Ross's wife, and now everybody knows. I'm

489
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: grateful that Florence didn't get hurt and that she is

490
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 1: a witness, and we at least understand the dynamic between

491
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,199
Speaker 1: this kidnapper who asks odd questions about sweetheart and stuff

492
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: like that. But at the same time, she's so worried

493
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 1: about Charles because of his bad heart. So that's where

494
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: we are right now, as you've got an older man

495
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 1: who is very wealthy, well known in the city, who

496
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:04,679
Speaker 1: has been carjacked, sort of kidnapped definitely, and we are

497
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: left wondering what is going to happen next to this man.

498
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 1: Is he going to survive this? Because it's a big mystery, boy.

499
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 2: Sure, you know. And it just kind of dawned on

500
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 2: me with the man with the revolver asking her are

501
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 2: you his girlfriend or sweetheart? If she had said yes,

502
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 2: I wonder if a man was trying to determine how

503
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 2: much leverage you know, what is the emotional connection between

504
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 2: her and Charles and could he leverage that emotional connection

505
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 2: where now he's threatening her in order to get Charles

506
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 2: to do something he wants Charles to do down the road.

507
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 2: Maybe he's assessing should I also take her and then

508
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 2: I could use them against each other if let's say

509
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 2: they're in love and you know, now it's like, well,

510
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 2: she's going to die unless you give us that quarter

511
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 2: of a million dollars, or vice versa, where maybe she

512
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 2: has a knowledge that they think she might know and

513
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 2: Charles is refusing to give it. Well, they're now going

514
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 2: to you know, we will kill Charles unless you divulge

515
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 2: what we need to know.

516
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: Well, and I wonder if there's a second person, if

517
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: there's a getaway driver in the car, why not take

518
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 1: her too.

519
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 2: I think that just really informs me that they weren't

520
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 2: expecting Florence to be there. They didn't have a plan

521
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 2: to handle two adults, and the primary target was Charles,

522
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 2: and they got Charles, and they accomplished what they set

523
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 2: out to do.

524
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: Let's move through this story. His wife, of course, is

525
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: incredibly upset, and she, along with the state police, are

526
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: waiting by the phone in Chicago, waiting for a ransom note.

527
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: They hope, now the rest of this is going to

528
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: be how they did things in the nineteen thirties versus

529
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 1: how we would do things in a similar situation now.

530
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: So they are waiting for a ransom note, and they

531
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 1: think that the robbers were targeting Ross because of the

532
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: car that he drove, that they didn't know him personally.

533
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: But there are a couple of people who think that

534
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: there's a connection with the Fargo hotel. They had had

535
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: dinner there, Charles and Florence, and there was a young

536
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: man in a great cap talking to Charles in the lobby,

537
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: but Florence doesn't identify him as the same man. Of course,

538
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: she didn't see the driver, and this never comes back

539
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: in the research, So I don't know if it's anything,

540
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: but it's definitely possible that whatever they did before, you know,

541
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,959
Speaker 1: at this dinner at this hotel, somebody saw them and

542
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 1: sort of tailed them, and this is what ended up happening.

543
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: But it didn't sound like this was personal. It sounded

544
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: like he was recognized as somebody with money who's older,

545
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: who was targeted.

546
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 2: So this idea that they are assessing, you know, they're

547
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 2: looking for a victim, and they're assessing Charles. He's well dressed,

548
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 2: he looks distinguished. He's getting what I'm into, what I'm

549
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 2: going to assume is a more expensive vehicle. And so

550
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 2: they're now said, here's our target, and they follow Charles.

551
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 2: There's that on one hand, when they're Thunder initially comes

552
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 2: out of the vehicle and makes a statement about what

553
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 2: was the statement they said about It wasn't his main man.

554
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: So the man with the pointy face says, this is

555
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: a kidnapping. My boss told me to bring you along.

556
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that suggests that this boss possibly targeted Charles. Now,

557
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 2: it may be that there's a boss saying to these underlings,

558
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 2: go find somebody that has, you know, the financial assets

559
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 2: to get a quarter million dollars. And there isn't that

560
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 2: prior knowledge of who Charles is, and so they're just

561
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 2: looking for somebody that appears to potentially have that. But

562
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 2: I think that that initial statement this is a kidnapping,

563
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 2: you know, my boss told me to bring you along.

564
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 2: I really lean towards there's a prior relationship of some

565
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 2: sort between that boss and Charles.

566
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 1: Okay, we'll see moving forward. This is a huge manhunt.

567
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 1: Five hundred police officers search the countryside near Sycamore, which

568
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 1: is where this happened, and of course they canvas everywhere,

569
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: including the Fargo Hotel, which is where Charles and Florence

570
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: had been having dinner and the next thing you know,

571
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: he's being kidnapped in the evening. Police are very concerned

572
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: because it turns out not only does Charles have a

573
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: bad heart, he has high blood pressure and he's seventy two,

574
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,719
Speaker 1: and so now you've got not only the risk that

575
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 1: he's gonna get killed no matter what happens, ransom or not,

576
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: but on top of that, it's like he could already

577
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: be dead just from fright. So I think this is

578
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: a sign of the times, Paul. And you tell me

579
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: it takes five days for the first ransom letter to

580
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: come in. That seems like a long time in twenty

581
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: twenty four. I might be wrong. How do ransom letters

582
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: come in these days? Is it an email or is

583
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: it just everything possible?

584
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,719
Speaker 2: It's everything possible, you know, And this is you know,

585
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 2: kidnappings with ransom. This is not a common crime at all,

586
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 2: I can think in my career, and I had no

587
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 2: involvement in this case, but we did have a higher

588
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 2: profile woman kidnapped. I don't recall what the kidnappers asked for,

589
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 2: what kind of ransom, or how it came in. But

590
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 2: I think that's the only thing, the only case that

591
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 2: I was aware of over the entirety of my career,

592
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 2: and it actually happened, I believe, even before I started

593
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety. So it's not a common thing. What

594
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 2: we do get is we do get the threatening letters

595
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 2: that will come in or the tips that come in,

596
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 2: and somebody who's writing a ransom letter, I'm putting myself

597
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 2: in the offender's mind. Right, They're going to want to

598
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 2: communicate they want to financially benefit as a result of

599
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: the kidnapping, and the ransom letter is the way to

600
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 2: communicate what their needs are. But they want to provide

601
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 2: that information in a manner that is going to minimize

602
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 2: risk of being found by law enforcement. And it could

603
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 2: be even to this day, you know, if it's done right,

604
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 2: done through snail mail versus electronically, if you send an

605
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 2: email in, there's so much we can do on law

606
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 2: enforcement side to start backtracking that unless the person is

607
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 2: fairly sophisticated on how to anonymize themselves in the online space.

608
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because when we talk about ransom letters

609
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: and kidnappings, I could be wrong, but the only cases

610
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: I can think of modern cases are the fakes. Yeah,

611
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: are the people who have set it up themselves. I

612
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: cannot think. I'm sure somebody will message me about this,

613
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: but I can't think of another one recently that has

614
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: made national headlines where it's been a legitimate ransom.

615
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, that I know you're talking about the fakes, you know,

616
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 2: the people who said I was kidnapped and then they

617
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 2: turns out that they had just set up the story themselves.

618
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: Yep.

619
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 2: You know. There's also the cases in which, oftentimes it's

620
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 2: a child in this day that's abducted and then a

621
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 2: ransom letter comes in, but the child has already been killed.

622
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's my fear with this case. Five days. If

623
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: he's really alive, they have kept him alive for five days.

624
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 1: Number one, why did it take so long? And number two,

625
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: what are the chances that Charles is really alive at

626
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: this point? What do you think, Paul.

627
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:22,919
Speaker 2: Well in terms of why did it take so long?

628
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,399
Speaker 2: I think I need to know more about the ransom letter.

629
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 2: I'm assuming it came through postal service? Yes, was there

630
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 2: anything about, you know, the investigation into the postmark? When

631
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 2: was this letter submitted to the postal service? You know,

632
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,919
Speaker 2: did it take five days for the kidnappers to write

633
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 2: the ransom letter and then it was you know, delivered

634
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 2: right away, or was it written and it took the

635
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 2: postal service five days before it actually arrived at the address.

636
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: I have answers to those questions. So there are actually

637
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: two letters. The first first one that arrives, they arrive

638
00:34:58,080 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: kind of on the same day, but to two different people.

639
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: One is to his wife, Charles's wife, and the other

640
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 1: one is to somebody who is a former business associate

641
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: of Charles's and he lives in Green Bay, Wisconsin. And

642
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 1: it will be pretty clear from the content of these

643
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 1: letters why these people were picked. The business associate has

644
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: a lot of money, so I think, and of course

645
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: the wife has a lot of money, so I think

646
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: they're looking for who the hell has money here? Before

647
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,359
Speaker 1: you ask, the FBI is called in, but we don't

648
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: have photos of the letters. We have what the letters say,

649
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: but we don't have the photos. The first letter is

650
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: to the wife. It is in Charles's handwriting, and kind

651
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: of as we get deeper into this, it's hard to

652
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: know whether or not it's really his. But the police

653
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: are pretty convinced, as is j Edgar Hoover, that this

654
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:48,240
Speaker 1: is actually his handwriting and under duress. It was postmarked

655
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 1: in Savannah, Illinois on September twenty ninth. It was delivered.

656
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: The first one to the wife is delivered the next day,

657
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 1: so it took them four days.

658
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 2: Now, let me just throw out and This is probably

659
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 2: a long shot, but this is something that has to

660
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 2: be considered. Did Charles stage his own kidnapping?

661
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 1: Why would he do that? Insurance?

662
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 2: You have individuals, yes, you know, whether oftentimes when you

663
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 2: see fraud, you know they have run into some sort

664
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 2: of financial difficulty and they are now pretending to be

665
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 2: a victim of a crime because there would be something

666
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 2: like an insurance payout, or it may be where they

667
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 2: are concerned about their own physical safety, and so they

668
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 2: stage this crime to disappear to try to avoid somebody

669
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 2: from hunting them down. With these ransom letters being in

670
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,399
Speaker 2: charles handwriting and taking so long, I'm just kind of,

671
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,879
Speaker 2: you know, just chewing on that as a possibility, especially

672
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 2: the life is an obvious person to send a ransom

673
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,879
Speaker 2: a ransom letter too, But a business associate that lives

674
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 2: in Green Bay? Why is that person being selected? This would,

675
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 2: on one hand, really further this boss person that sent

676
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 2: the kidnappers having that prior relationship with Charles and has

677
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 2: fairly detailed knowledge of Charles' business enterprise. But at the

678
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 2: same time, who else would know that this businessman in

679
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 2: Green Bay has money Charles, you know? And why would

680
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 2: Charles throw that man out there to you know these people,

681
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 2: unless it's like, well, the only two people that are

682
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 2: potentially going to get you the money that you want

683
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 2: so I can be safe is either my wife or

684
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 2: this man I used to work with or currently have

685
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 2: a business relationship with in Green Bay.

686
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: It's confusing, and these letters are something else, and I

687
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: might actually Paul, have you read the letters aloud so

688
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: you can stop and comment, because they are a little

689
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 1: confusing for me. The first one arrives five days later.

690
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 1: As I said, Charles's wife's nickname from him was Dick.

691
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 1: I have no idea why, I've never heard of that before,

692
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: but he calls her Dick. So you can read for

693
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: the listeners what this letter says. So start where it says,

694
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: dear Dick right there.

695
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 2: So this is the ransom letter to Charles's wife. It starts,

696
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 2: dear Dick, I'm held for ransom. I have stated I

697
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 2: am worth one hundred thousand dollars, including the GS Carrington

698
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 2: Company stock held in escrow by First National Bank. Try

699
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 2: and raise fifty thousand dollars yours, Charles s. Ross. Contact

700
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 2: Harvey S. Brackett. Say nothing to anyone except Harvey. All

701
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 2: communications will be addressed to William's bay and that's it.

702
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 1: That's it. What do you think so far?

703
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 2: Obviously he's using the term of endearment a dear dick

704
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 2: to his wife. That's indicating that the writer of this,

705
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 2: and I'm assuming it is Charles, that their handwriting analysis

706
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 2: is correct. I am held for ransom. I have stated

707
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 2: I am worth one hundred thousand dollars. That's a red

708
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 2: flag to me. Why is he saying I have stated.

709
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,399
Speaker 2: I'm reading that going well, if I'm like the kidnappers,

710
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 2: I'm going, well, are you worth more than that? How

711
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 2: much are you truly worth? Whereas he's almost divulging, well,

712
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 2: I'm just I've stated, almost like I've lied, you know,

713
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 2: about how much I'm worth and so, but he is

714
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 2: saying that I am worth one hundred thousand dollars including

715
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 2: the GS Carrington Company stock held in escrow by First

716
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 2: National Bank. Why is that stock in escrow? Try and

717
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:29,919
Speaker 2: raise fifty thousand dollars?

718
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: Now, remember the pointy faced man said two hundred and

719
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,919
Speaker 1: fifty thousand to Florence, which would be five million. There's

720
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 1: a big switch in how much money they're demanding. It

721
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 1: gets worse.

722
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 2: Well, there's yeah, I mean, there's there's a weirdness to this,

723
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 2: you know. It's it's like, why even mention the gs

724
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 2: Carrington stock that's held in escrow at this particular bank,

725
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,399
Speaker 2: First National Bank, and then even all, Hey, I'm worth

726
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand dollars, but try and raise fifty thousand.

727
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 2: The people that are asking for ransom, it's like, well,

728
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 2: can you get us twenty five grand? No, you want

729
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 2: Charles back alive, you better get us twenty five grand

730
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 2: or else there's threats. This is like, oh, try and

731
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 2: raise fifty grand. I am now very very concerned about

732
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 2: the reality of this kidnapping.

733
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 1: My impression would be, and you can correct me if

734
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 1: I'm wrong. Here in this situation, it's almost more dangerous

735
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: that they don't sound like they know what they're doing,

736
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,399
Speaker 1: because I'm afraid they're just gonna panic and kill him.

737
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 1: The way all of this is worded, everything is really weird,

738
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: and you would think that someone who knows what they're

739
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: doing would kind of get the money, get it out

740
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 1: the door within a day, you know, get this letter out,

741
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: let's take care of it. Let's get rid of this

742
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: guy as soon as possible and move on. There were

743
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: a lot of kidnappings in the thirties and gangsters were involved.

744
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 1: This does not sound like a very well organized gangster.

745
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:00,240
Speaker 1: If this is a gang.

746
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 2: At all, it sounds very odd in terms of what

747
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 2: they're asking for, the lack of threats. And then it's

748
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 2: also now contact Harvey s bracket and it looks like

749
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 2: the researcher Ali determined that Harvey is a former business

750
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 2: associate and he's the one, okay, he's the one that

751
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 2: lives in Green Bay. Yep. And don't say anything to

752
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 2: anybody except to Harvey. Yep.

753
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: Say nothing to anyone except Harvey. All communications will be

754
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: addressed to Williams Bay, Okay.

755
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 2: And what is Williams Bay? Is that a person? Is

756
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 2: that just going to be like a pseudonym.

757
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 1: Williams Bay is in Wisconsin, so it's a city, it's

758
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 1: a village in Wisconsin. Sounds like they're sending they want

759
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: them to send the correspondence. When there's a reply or

760
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 1: when the money is sent, it needs to go to

761
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 1: Williams Bay. I don't know if this is signed. It

762
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 1: doesn't sound like it's signed. Well, you should read the

763
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: second letter. I mean, it's pretty bananas. Also, this is

764
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 1: the letter that Harvey Brackett, who is the former business

765
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 1: as Shit, received in Green Bay same day, so September thirtieth,

766
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty seven. This sounds like something out of a

767
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 1: spy movie, which is again makes me very worried for Charles,

768
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 1: because I'm afraid that these guys are off the rails

769
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:13,720
Speaker 1: and don't know what they're doing.

770
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 2: Sure, Dear Harvey S. Brackett, have payment ready on instant

771
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 2: notice to be delivered by employee of Harley Davidson Company

772
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 2: on motorcycle road to be designated later rider to drop

773
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,760
Speaker 2: a bag on highway at signal a shot or repeated

774
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 2: flashes of light. Rider to then continue forward for three

775
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 2: hundred yards and turn off road on left side to

776
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 2: continue farther would be fatal. Money to be contained in

777
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 2: small leather bag of following denomination twenty percent payment value

778
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 2: in five dollar bills, fifty percent in ten dollar bills,

779
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 2: thirty percent and twenty dollar bills. All money to be

780
00:42:56,080 --> 00:43:00,800
Speaker 2: non consecutive, an unmarked and of authentic origin when ready.

781
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 2: Insert following ad in Chicago Tribune Used Cars for Sale department,

782
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:10,280
Speaker 2: and this is the ad that they want Dodge good condition,

783
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 2: no defect. Amount ready and then left parentheses example, five

784
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 2: hundred dollars for fifty thousand dollars, twenty five dollars for

785
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 2: two five hundred dollars, okay, And then the ad continues,

786
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:28,319
Speaker 2: name of rider and address, Harvey, you are to hire

787
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,919
Speaker 2: a motorcycle rider from Harley Davidson Company and get name

788
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 2: and address, say nothing to anyone except Dick, which is

789
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 2: Charles's wife. And then it signed your friend Charles s

790
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 2: Ross for Albie.

791
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 1: I don't know about the Albi part. Oh this is

792
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:47,879
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a mess.

793
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 2: It's too much, it's too much of a mess.

794
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: Well, I have two thoughts. One the Harley Davidson thing.

795
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 1: I had wondered if when they print the name of

796
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: this legitimate you know, writer with Hardley Davidson, which, by

797
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 1: the way, I didn't even know they hired out writers,

798
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: but I guess so maybe the kidnappers were thinking, we

799
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 1: can we can figure out if this is a legitimate

800
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 1: person and not a cop, you know, being sent out.

801
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 1: So I wonder if that's what they're thinking. That being said,

802
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 1: there's a case in American Sherlock about a priest who

803
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: was kidnapped in nineteen twenty one from Colma California, and

804
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 1: it's a very famous case that Oscar Heinrich worked on,

805
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: and the person who was ultimately the kidnapper wrote a

806
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 1: note that feels very similar to this note. I'm not

807
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 1: saying one inspired the other anything like that. I'm just

808
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 1: saying it feels like sort of weird and disjointed, and

809
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense. He turned out to have schizophrenia.

810
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 1: I mean it was like handwritten. Half of it was handwritten,

811
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: half of it was typed. The instructions were this detailed,

812
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: like somebody reading really bad, hard boiled detective novels came

813
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: up with this. This is what you and I would write.

814
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,280
Speaker 1: This is what I mean, Why we're doing a kidnapping?

815
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: It would be this complicated. And so that's why I'm

816
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,399
Speaker 1: worried about Charles. What's gonna happen with this guy?

817
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:10,919
Speaker 2: Yeah? And when you think about so, if I kind

818
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 2: of continue down the path of the thought of is

819
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 2: this a staged kidnapping? You know, I want to, you know,

820
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 2: bring up John Bena Ramsey and this may seem we

821
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 2: know there isn't a kidnapping, but there was a ransom

822
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 2: letter found inside the homicide scene, written on you know,

823
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 2: notepaper that was found withinside that house and going through

824
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 2: that ransom letter, you know, where the offenders don't have

825
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:43,320
Speaker 2: control over John Bennet's body. She is left inside the house,

826
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,359
Speaker 2: and so they're now saying, if you don't give us

827
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 2: this very very specific amount that matched the father's you

828
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 2: know bonus, you know, she's you know, she's going to

829
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 2: be killed in essence, But then it used a phrase,

830
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 2: don't try to grow a brain, John. And this is

831
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 2: where hold on. Now, when people start staging crimes, where

832
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 2: do they turn to to do research on how they're

833
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 2: going to make this crime look like something because they

834
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,959
Speaker 2: don't know they don't do these types of crimes, they're

835
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,399
Speaker 2: not in law enforcement, they don't see these types of crimes. Well,

836
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 2: they turn to popular culture. At the time of the

837
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,879
Speaker 2: John Bine Ramsey homicide, the popular movie in the movie

838
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 2: theaters at the time was the movie Speed, and that

839
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 2: phrase don't grow hey brain, John was verbatim what Dennis Hopper,

840
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 2: the bad guy makes a you know, he says that

841
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 2: to the Keanu Reeves character. Well, it's like hold on here, okay,

842
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 2: So that starts telling me, okay, this ransom letter sounds

843
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 2: like it's stage. Now in this case there's specific things

844
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 2: going on. The vagueness and everything else is like, Okay,

845
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 2: I'm concerned about this being staged, but what's going on

846
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:02,959
Speaker 2: in popular culture that if Charles is involved, what would

847
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 2: he be relying upon it? And that I don't know.

848
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:07,879
Speaker 2: It's just that that's something where it's like, okay, there

849
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 2: is red flags going off all over the place in

850
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 2: this case right now.

851
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 1: Well, get ready. Charles's wife is like, oh shit. She

852
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,240
Speaker 1: gets the ransom money and starts to work to place

853
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 1: the ad and to get a motorcycle rider from Harley Davidson.

854
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,879
Speaker 1: Three more letters in the meantime are sent. They are

855
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:33,479
Speaker 1: all sent to a guy named Elton c Armitage who

856
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 1: was in the same like social organization they called a lodge,

857
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: but it was a social organization or fraternal organization as Charles.

858
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 1: These are not handwritten by Charles. These are typed and

859
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 1: they are postmarked Chicago, and they were postmarked on October

860
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:55,760
Speaker 1: tewod October sixth and October seventh. So at this point,

861
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,280
Speaker 1: if we believe that Charles really did write those letters,

862
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:02,319
Speaker 1: and if we believe that this is not a fake

863
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,839
Speaker 1: kidnapping or anything like that, that this is legitimate, then

864
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 1: there is now a chance that Charles is no longer

865
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 1: with us because we don't have anything handwritten from him,

866
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: we have things typed out. At this point, why change

867
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 1: the mode of communication from handwritten to typed At this point.

868
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 2: The initial thing that pops into my mind is whether

869
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 2: or not you have a copycat this high profile case

870
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,439
Speaker 2: and we see that, you know, we're others who have

871
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 2: no involvement in the crime insert themselves into the case

872
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:37,320
Speaker 2: just because they want the notoriety, the attention. Is this

873
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 2: somebody who's just now going, okay, you know you've got

874
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 2: this high profile kidnapping ransom letters are coming in. Well,

875
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,359
Speaker 2: I'm going to see if I can squeeze some money

876
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 2: out of this myself by pretending to be I've got

877
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,399
Speaker 2: the I've got Charles. And who is this you said

878
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 2: it was? These letters were to Elgin.

879
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: Who's right, Elton c Armitage, who is in the same

880
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: social lodge. He must have thought he had to have

881
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 1: gotten this information from Charles. He must have thought this

882
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 1: is somebody who had money or who could influence move

883
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,240
Speaker 1: along the process with missus Ross.

884
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, you know, so you know right now it's

885
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 2: it's I think it's it's up in the air. I

886
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:18,759
Speaker 2: need to know more. You know, It's like, you know,

887
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 2: do we truly have a kidnapper who just is bungling

888
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 2: the ransom side, or do we have a stage crime

889
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 2: where Charles is sort of for whatever reason, has decided

890
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:33,359
Speaker 2: to pretend to be kidnapped as well as needs this

891
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 2: money withdrawn under this criminal umbrella in order to save

892
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 2: his own ass in some capacity.

893
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 1: M okay, so let's find out. The first note that

894
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 1: Elton gets the guy from the social organization is essentially

895
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:51,799
Speaker 1: the same thing that missus Ross initially got. Give me

896
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,280
Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars. Put an ad in the auto section

897
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 1: of the newspaper confirming that the money is ready. You

898
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 1: will get more instructions. The second note says, if you're concerned, essentially,

899
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 1: I will give you proof of Charles as well being

900
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 1: go to a specific address on Wabash Avenue in Chicago.

901
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 1: And when they go, it's a camera store and there

902
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 1: is some film laying on a countertop. They have it

903
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 1: developed and it is Charles. He's alive, he's in the

904
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 1: clothing that he's been kidnapped in, and he's doing a

905
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 1: proof of life. Classic film proof of life, holding up

906
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 1: an edition of a Chicago newspaper dated October two, seven

907
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 1: days after he's been kidnapped. He's amid some birch trees outside.

908
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 1: Seven days later, he is still alive. Can you believe that? Yes,

909
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 1: if this is a fake, it doesn't kill Joy.

910
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 2: It doesn't resolve. Yeah, it doesn't resolve you know what's

911
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 2: going on here because it could be either scenario. If

912
00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 2: these kidnappers are real, you know, they're still leveraging Charles

913
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 2: and they're they're keeping him alive. But if Charles is pretending,

914
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 2: you know, to be kidnapped, he could stage the you know,

915
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 2: these photos himself. So it's just more details. You know.

916
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 2: The fact that you have this this film at this

917
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 2: particular store, well, that of course is where you're going

918
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 2: to be selling, you know, setting investigators who came into

919
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 2: this store? Why was that? Canistore a film here? You know?

920
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 2: How did that get in here? You know, you have

921
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 2: witnesses all over the place inside this camera store.

922
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 1: Potentially, as a very short summary, we have the wealthy

923
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 1: man who has been kidnapped. He appears. Whether this is

924
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 1: real or not, if we're going to assume that this

925
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 1: is a real kidnapping. He appears to have still been

926
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 1: alive seven days after he was kidnapped. He has a

927
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:48,400
Speaker 1: bad heart, he has high blood pressure. He has a

928
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 1: lot of money. His wife is frantically gathering fifty thousand dollars,

929
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:56,360
Speaker 1: which is a million dollars today. The police appear to

930
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: be on board. She's looped in the state police. Nobody

931
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 1: seems to be objected to this plan. This is snail mail.

932
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 1: So we are waiting painfully, not even for phone calls,

933
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: but for snail mail. And these kidnappers, if we have

934
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:14,319
Speaker 1: real kidnappers here, seem off the rails. This is like

935
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 1: you need a code to crack what they're asking you

936
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 1: to do, and it only gets worse. And you're, unfortunately, Paul,

937
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 1: going to have to wait until next week to figure

938
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 1: out what happens to port Charles Ross. If this is

939
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 1: a real kidnapping, don't don't dull.

940
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:33,839
Speaker 2: It's a big If it's a big iff.

941
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 1: Okay, I'll see you next week and I'll get right

942
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 1: to it. I promise there won't be any pleasantries at

943
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 1: the beginning.

944
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 2: Oh, come on, I enjoy the pleasantries, but I look

945
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 2: forward to hearing the rest of the story.

946
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 1: Okay, see you soon sounds good. This has been an

947
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 1: exactly right production for our sources and show notes go

948
00:52:56,080 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 1: to exactly Rightmedia dot com slash Buried Bones Sources. Our

949
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:02,359
Speaker 1: senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

950
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:06,840
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

951
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

952
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

953
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:14,280
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

954
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

955
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

956
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 1: Barry Bones Pod.

957
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

958
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

959
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:30,399
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now

960
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

961
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now