1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from housetop works 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick in. 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: Today is going to be part two of a two 5 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: part episode about the scientific history of fire on Earth. Earth, 6 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: as we learned in our last episode, probably as far 7 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: as we know, the only place in the universe there 8 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: is fire. Could be other places we don't know about, 9 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: but here it is, right. Yeah, there are three elements 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 1: required for for fire. You need the fuel, you need 11 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 1: the heat, you need the oxygen, the tri force of fire, 12 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: the tri force of fire. Earth didn't always have it, 13 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: but then the conditions coalesced to where they were available, 14 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: and then we had fire. And furthermore, fire, as far 15 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: as we can tell, is an essential component of high technology. Yes, 16 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: so you're talking about you know, creating, you know, smelting ors, 17 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: creating settle towards metal tools. All of this requires that 18 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 1: the alchemy of these creations requires fire. So it is 19 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: very much clear that fire is an essential part of 20 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: the technological profile of the human species on Earth, you know, 21 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: beyond stone tools. Fire is how we get stuff done. 22 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: But there are I mean it has symbolic power too. 23 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: I mean we get in the whole idea of Promethean fire, 24 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: like it's this thing that God has brought us. It 25 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: is the power of power that is from beyond us 26 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: that then fills us up. We talk about the fire 27 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: and the spark of human existence, of the soul of compassion, 28 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: all of these of these complex ideas are are are 29 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: wound up in this notion of fire. Yeah. And so 30 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:45,759 Speaker 1: the first thing I think we should talk about today 31 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: is is this concept of the divine spark, not so 32 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: much in the theological sense, but in the literal sense, 33 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: Like what what is the human brain look like on fire? 34 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: What what is the fire drug done for us? And 35 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: I think it's been long recognized that that control mastery 36 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: over fire is one of the essential ingredients in the 37 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 1: human animal as it exists today. One of there are 38 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: things that really makes a stand apart um alongside language. Right, 39 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: if you had to pick just two things that really 40 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: make humans different than all the other animals, give me 41 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: fire and give me some words to talk about fire with, 42 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: right to to say while we're setting you on fire. Yeah, 43 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: But even and this idea goes back a long way 44 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 1: so Charles Darwin wrote in The Descent of Man in 45 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: eight quote the speaking of Humankind quote, he has discovered 46 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: the art of making fire, by which hard and stringy 47 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:45,239 Speaker 1: roots can be rendered digestible and poisonous roots or herbs innocuous. 48 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: This discovery of fire probably the greatest ever made by man, 49 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: accepting language, dates from before the dawn of history. I 50 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: think we can all agree on that, right, fire comes 51 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 1: before history. But exactly how long before history? And one 52 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:02,799 Speaker 1: thing you might be surprised to learn is that this 53 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: is not a settled question. Exactly when fire emerges in 54 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: human history is still up for debate. Yeah. The predictions 55 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: vary from a brown from a near forty thousand years 56 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 1: ago to four hundred thousand, five hundred thousand, or even 57 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: in the in the very extreme cases one point six. Yeah, 58 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: and so they're all over the map. I looked at 59 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: one paper by A. J. A. J. Gaulet, who is 60 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: an anthropologist and archaeologists called the discovery of fire by 61 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: humans a long and convoluted process in philosophical Transation Transactions 62 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: of the Royal Society b from sixteen and he looks 63 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: over a lot of the evidence and says so much 64 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: archaeological investigation into the emergence of fire has been very 65 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: focused on the search for hearths, right, this is this 66 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: is the big thing you want to find as evidence 67 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: of of hominins using fire, is these fireplaces. Hearths a 68 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: place where you put all your fuel together and you'd 69 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: burn it. Evidence for hearts seems to appear around zero 70 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: point seven to zero point four million years ago, or 71 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: I guess we could just say four hundred thousand, seven 72 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: hundred thousand years ago, But that's not necessarily the earliest 73 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: emergence of fire use among humans. That's just when we 74 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: start finding these fireplaces. In fact, evidence of burning, Galllet 75 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: says appears at archaeological sites starting around one point five 76 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: million years ago. But it's it's kind of difficult because 77 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: just using fire doesn't necessarily always leave good evidence that 78 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 1: can be found, you know, more than a million years later, 79 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 1: So you really have to be on the lookout for 80 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: things that are difficult to find, and they might not 81 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: always leave a trace at all. Yeah, Like as with 82 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: a lot of things in the fossil record, in the 83 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: archaeological record, it's kind of a crap shoot as to 84 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: whether it's actually going to be preserved and then if 85 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: it's preserved, it's going to be discovered. Right. But so 86 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: Galllet says that, you know, one way to think about 87 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: it might be that it's not just that we had 88 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 1: fire and then we didn't. But there's sort of a 89 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: three stage process for the human acquisition of fire. And 90 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: uh so Gallant says, first, what about fire foraging? So 91 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: fire foraging is is an interesting first step in the 92 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 1: acquisition of fire because it doesn't require the control of fire, 93 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,359 Speaker 1: just an attraction to it. So what would you have 94 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: in mind if you hear the words fire foraging? You're 95 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: going around looking for fire, not exactly your or you 96 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 1: might be following fire around, but instead you go to 97 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: a place where a wildfire has burned, and then you 98 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: gain the chance for a bonus of free resources. I 99 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: kind of think about it how like if you're ever 100 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: in a video game like Legend of Zelda, and you 101 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 1: go around and you like burn a bunch of bushes 102 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: or something, and then under the bushes there might be 103 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: some rupees or some goodies something to find there. This 104 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: is kind of what that is like. So you go 105 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 1: to a place where wildfire is burning and there might 106 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: be bird eggs or rodents or lizards or other small 107 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: animals exposed that you can eat, and it might also 108 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: render these So it renders these resources more visible obviously 109 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: because it eliminates cover easier to obtain and possibly also 110 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: more digestible by accidental cooking. But there's a reason that 111 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: early humans and and hominids would have been drawn to 112 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: a blaze. They would have seen the smoke on the 113 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: horizon really through some sort of wildfire scenario going on, 114 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 1: and they would have sought it out from sources. Yeah. Yeah, 115 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: And we can talk about some modern analogies to how 116 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: these these creatures may have uh felt about fire by 117 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: looking at some some modern primates today, but we'll talk 118 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 1: about that later in the episode. And just for analogies 119 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: in non human animals in nature, there are other animals 120 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: that do this there, for example, birds that are known 121 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: as fire followers. You know, fire foraging among avians makes 122 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 1: it seem like it could easily have been done by 123 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: hominins a long time ago too. But then so Gablet 124 00:06:57,800 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: also says, you know, you've got a couple of stages 125 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: after fire foraging. You've got he says, quote social slash 126 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: domestic hearth, fire for protection and cooking. Okay, so you 127 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: have a fire that you can gather around, there's warmth, 128 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: there's light, and there is there's heat for cooking food. 129 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: And then third, finally, fires used as tools in the 130 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: technological processes like firing pottery or making metal tools or 131 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: things like that are creating a you know, adhesives on 132 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: things that take fire to make. But I think that 133 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: thing about fire foraging is an interesting first step because 134 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: it sort of shows you how you could maybe bridge 135 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: the gap between a primate species that doesn't understand anything 136 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: about fire and one that starts to use fire. You know, 137 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:47,679 Speaker 1: you don't have to go just straight from being afraid 138 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: of fire to using it. Technologically, you sort of have 139 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: this bridge, right, a behavioral bridge from one to the other. Yeah. 140 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: One is tempted to make an analogy to the taming 141 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: of a wild animal. At first, you know, you know 142 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: what it is, you learn, you learn to be a 143 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: little more comfortable around it, you know what kind of 144 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: distance to give it, uh, how much space needs to 145 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: be between you and the animal. And then eventually you 146 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: get to the point where you have worked out a 147 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: relationship with the animal, you have tamed it, and that's 148 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: sort of what happens with fire over time. So you 149 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: can imagine going from simply seeking out the fire, keeping 150 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: a distance from the fire because you know that even 151 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: though it it unwraps these resources for you, it itself 152 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: is hot and burns you. And then over time you 153 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 1: become comfortable enough with it to start playing with a 154 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: little bit, sticking sticks into it, and then eventually even 155 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: capturing portions of it and figuring out ways to utilize it. 156 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: This is an interesting thing to think about. Commonly, it 157 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: is very common. I bet you listening right now have this, 158 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: have had this experience. It is extremely common for humans 159 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: to want to play with fire. I I know, I 160 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: feel this feeling like there's a there's a campfire, and 161 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: you just feel this urge to kind of like poke 162 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 1: at it with a stick or something. That I had 163 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: this experience with my my son recently at a a 164 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: fall celebration with some family. Uh, they had a camp 165 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: fire set up and we had some sticks with marshmallows, 166 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,479 Speaker 1: and you know, instructed him on how to cook the marshmallow. 167 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: But then I at the end of it, I said, 168 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 1: now you can just poke the stick around in the fire, 169 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: because I know that's really having been a little boy myself, 170 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: and still having that little boy within me. I know 171 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:25,439 Speaker 1: that that's really what we want to do. We don't 172 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: want to cook the marshmallows so much as we're going 173 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: to just poke the ever loving hell out of that fire, 174 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: you know, and watch the sparks rise up and watch 175 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: coal's collapse and that, I mean, that's the experience. But 176 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: I feel like this is something that's not just like 177 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: a like a cognitively obtained behavior like using an an 178 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: Excel spreadsheet might be. It feels instinctual, right, and it 179 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: certainly does to me. I think you would report if 180 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,559 Speaker 1: small children seem to do it without prompting. There's this 181 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: this instinctual draw to play with fire. Why on earth 182 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: would that be an instinct? I mean, instinct is generally 183 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: something that has been selected for by evolution, So why 184 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: would evolution favor this instinct to go mess around with 185 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: something that could burn you or even kill you unless 186 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: there's some kind of compensating benefit, And it seems like 187 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 1: for humans there probably has been, right because you compared 188 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 1: it to taming an animal. We haven't just tamed an animal, 189 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: we have tamed a demon. Right, Yeah, one is it 190 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: wants them to think of the gin that has a 191 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: fire that like a genie that one has has captured 192 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: and and and enslaved for your own purposes. Pretty much 193 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 1: with the fire demon in uh Was, which was the 194 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: Miyazaki movie with the fire demon not spirited away but 195 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: how's moving castle? Oh yeah, I remember that one. Yeah, 196 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: I think that's that's a good fire demon. It's a 197 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: good fire demon. Yeah, and they put him to work. 198 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: But it but it also, like a gin, grants your wishes, right, 199 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 1: So let's let's take a moment to think about some 200 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,439 Speaker 1: of the wishes that have been granted by the demon fire. Um. 201 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: Some of these we've touched on already. If we called on, 202 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: do we have to phrase them in a way that 203 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: they can't come back to it? Us? Um No, because 204 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: fire does come back to bite if there's no there's 205 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: no avoiding that make me a cheese sentimatech So, first 206 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: of all, the ability to cast light upon an uncertain, 207 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: frightening and death filled night. Yeah, I mean think back 208 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: to I think of this anytime around the campfire. Just 209 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: think of like the primordial environment. You're huddled around this light, 210 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: this heat source, and then it's gives you the ability 211 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: to cast light on a world it's full of dangers, 212 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: human dangers as well as predators, as well as just 213 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: the problem of you tripping over a root and dying 214 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: in the night and then being consumed by predators. One 215 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: thing is, without fire, you can just pretty much bet 216 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: that humans would not exist at certain latitudes, right right, Yeah. 217 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: Fire gives us the ability to warm ourselves in increasingly 218 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: colder environments, so you're no longer forced to range south 219 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: in the winter or to stick to natural refuges of 220 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: thermal springs. That's uh, that's something that I remember coming up, 221 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: been studying saunas before. Like the long history of our 222 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: association with with geothermal vents is that like these were 223 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: these were little uh redoubts of of heat and civilization 224 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: that early people could could range between. Interesting. But with fire, 225 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,079 Speaker 1: you can create your own little redoubt of warmth anywhere 226 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: you want to, uh, in a in an increasingly chilly environment. Now, 227 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: a big one to come back to that cheese sandwich, 228 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: you mentioned the ability to externalize human digestion through the 229 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: use of cooking. Like, that's that's one way I like 230 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: to think of of of cooking, you know, because it's 231 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: more than just oh, I put some char in this cheese, 232 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: and now it's it's what's wonderful, and it is wonderful, 233 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 1: But it goes far beyond that. Cooking makes char on cheese? 234 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: Is that wonderful char on steak? Don't? Well? Maybe not char. 235 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,839 Speaker 1: You've had cheese sticks, right, and you know where the 236 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: cheese comes off, the grilled cheese, and it kind of 237 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: hardens into this you know what, I doubted you, but 238 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: now I know you know what, You're tough. That's that's delicious. However, 239 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: it doesn't really break down like the core benefits of 240 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: cooking fairly man, because a lot of those come down 241 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: to meat. Uh. Cooking meat makes it easier to digest, 242 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: It reduces the cost of meat digestion. Just coming at 243 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: it from you know, an economic bio energy standpoint, It 244 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: compromises the structural integrity of the tissue by gelatinizing the collagen. 245 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: Cooking also cleanses foods. It destroys parasites, pathogens, and even 246 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: renders many natural toxins harmless. Poison fruits become foods, etcetera. Okay. 247 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: On top of this, fire enables the transformation of resources 248 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: such as raw or into weapons, which can then be 249 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: used for your hunt. Uh. Fire eventually fuel the Industrial Revolution. 250 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,559 Speaker 1: The burning of fossil fuels propelled us into the modern age, 251 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: into the space age. Even so, if if man looms 252 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:52,319 Speaker 1: large uh in a in a grand scheme of things, 253 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: it's because the demon fire stands about behind it, casting 254 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: a shadow across the world and beyond, as Rocky Aerrison 255 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: would say, and for the fire demon. Yeah. And so 256 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: one particular aspect of what you just talked about I 257 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: want to look at is cooking, cooking as a feature 258 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: of the history and development of the human species. So 259 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: there is a Harvard primatologist named Richard Wrangham and also 260 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: a Harvard biologist Rachel Carmody, and they've put forward this 261 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: interesting hypothesis I was reading about about how cooking by 262 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: way of harnessing of fire made us into the humans 263 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: we are today. And so this is not considered proven. 264 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: There are arguments made against it, but I think it's 265 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: really interesting and worth taking a look at. So how 266 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: could cooking make us into the creatures we are today? 267 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: Especially from a mental point of view. Well, one thing 268 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: to think about is how your body at a total 269 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: state of rest is just a vampire. It is absolutely 270 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: energy ravenous, and I think sometimes people don't realize how 271 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: much energy is burned just by being alive, just by 272 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: the steady processes like circulation, digestion, and homeostasis. So I 273 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: put together an example just to illustrate how much energy 274 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: this takes comparatively, uh, and I used a couple of 275 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: calorie counters provided by the Mayo Clinic and Runners World 276 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: websites with you know, so take this with the warning 277 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: that these types of apps offer sort of general estimates 278 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: shouldn't be taken as perfect or exact, but based on 279 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: this imagine you are a thirty year old female who 280 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: is five ft six and weighs a hundred and forty 281 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: five pounds. You burn a hundred about seventeen fifty calories 282 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: a day at rest, one thousand and seven fifty calories 283 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: doing nothing. If you just lie in bed and watch 284 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: what would you watch all day? A very low energy 285 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: thing to watch on TV? I don't know, Buffy watching Buffy. 286 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: Just watch Buffy all day. Now, to burn that same 287 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: amount of energy through exercise, a hundred and forty five 288 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: pound adult would have to run about sixteen miles at 289 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: a pace of six miles per hour. The entire time. 290 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: That's more than half of a marathon race. So I 291 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: don't know, it just doesn't seem like laying there watching 292 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: Buffy all day is about the same amount of energy 293 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: work as running more than half of a marathon. But 294 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, It's kind of like when you look 295 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: at like business expenses and look at the sheer costs 296 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: of just keeping the lights on the overhead, the overhead 297 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: of a picul of business, the overhead for business human 298 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: is uh is pretty staggering. Yeah, and so what are 299 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: what where is all that energy going? Well, it's like 300 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: we said, it powers a lot of different things that 301 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: power circulation, digestion, respiration. But one of the most energy 302 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: hungry organs in the human body, maybe the most energy 303 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: hungry I've seen different claims about that, UH is the brain. 304 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: So despite being only a very small percentage of the 305 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: average human body weight, I think I've seen some like 306 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: two percent or so, it regularly uses around a fifth 307 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: of the body's total available metabolic energy. Of twenty of 308 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: all the energy your body uses is going to the brain. 309 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: I'll lighten up those synapses, things going back and forth. 310 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: And according to one study I read from n each 311 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: unit of brain tissue. So that's unit by mass uses 312 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: about twenty two times the amount of metabolic energy that 313 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: is used by the equivalent amount of muscle tissue. Being 314 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: smart is very costly from an energy perspective, and we 315 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: know that all organisms live in a very tight energy economy. Right, Yeah, 316 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:35,640 Speaker 1: there's not a lot, there's not room for a lot 317 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: of wasted effort or even any wasted effort really when 318 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: it comes to an organism. Right. Uh, so we know now, 319 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: we know that the brain needs a large amount of 320 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: energy in order to be powerful and formidable and intelligent, 321 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: like a big primate brain is. But if you go 322 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 1: back a few decades, scientists noticed this curious fact. So 323 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: they said, when you look across species with varying rates 324 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 1: of what's called encephalization, meaning you know, investing evolutionarily in 325 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 1: a large, powerful brain blowing the head up, incephalized mammals 326 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: don't seem to show a corresponding increase in their basal 327 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: metabolic rate. So you make a bigger brain, but you're 328 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 1: in you're investing in this energy hungry organ but you're 329 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: not showing greater energy needs than a similar sized animal 330 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: that doesn't invest in encephalization. So for a for a comparison, 331 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: it's kind of like if you have two families that 332 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: live next door to one another, and you know they 333 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: both have the same income, and suddenly one of the 334 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 1: families buys a yacht. So you're kind of thinking, how 335 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: where did that want for that? Yeah, what's this other 336 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,439 Speaker 1: line of revenue that is that is enabling them to 337 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: make this purchase? Right, So, there was a big influential 338 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 1: paper in nineteen that offered a potential solution to this, 339 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 1: a hypothesis to explain this, and it was known as 340 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: the expensive tissue hypothesis. This was by A. Leslie C. I. 341 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: L Oh and Peter Wheeler in Current Anthropology. And so 342 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,679 Speaker 1: what they said is one way you could pay for 343 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: the brain would be to cut investments in other quote 344 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 1: expensive organs, such as the gut. Right, So, a powerful, 345 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: costly digestive system is required if you want to get 346 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: the maximum energy out of bad food. Essentially, so if 347 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: you've got raw, tough, hard to digest, low quality foods, 348 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 1: you need a big, powerful gut to get all the 349 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: energy out of them. But if you can imagine an 350 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: organism could convert most of its diet away from all 351 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: of that junk into high quality, high nutrition, easy to 352 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: digest foods. Then it could cut what it invests in 353 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: the gut and the digestive system, and I'll and get 354 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: cut down that budget and invest all of those savings 355 00:19:55,880 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: into the brain. So the original proponents of the expensive 356 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: tissue hypothesis, they were focused on meat to Their idea 357 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,360 Speaker 1: is that you know, these hominins converted a large part 358 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: of their diet from tough, hard to digest plant matter 359 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 1: over to meat and animal products, and they could get 360 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: more nutrition with less work for the digestive system. I 361 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: can imagine that the TV advertisement for for meat at 362 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: the time. Yea more bang for your bite, get smart 363 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: quick with meat. Right. It sounds like a fallout kind 364 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 1: of yeah. But so here's where Rangum and Carmody, That 365 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: where their hypothesis comes in. What if instead of just 366 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: upgrading to meat, what if one of the significant upgrades 367 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 1: was too cooked food, allowing for easier digestion and a 368 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 1: bigger brain. So about one point seven million years ago 369 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: or so, about the time of the emergence of Homo erectus, 370 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: when the modern human body plan first shows up. This 371 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 1: is when you see human bodies that are shaped more 372 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: or less like Homo sapiens are today cooking Under this 373 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,360 Speaker 1: hypod this is could have entered the scene, making difficult foods, 374 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: tough roots and tubers and stuff available on the open 375 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 1: savannah into a digestible, a real thing that you could 376 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: digest and get good energy from as long as you 377 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: could cook it. Now, I said that this hypothesis was 378 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: not fully accepted everywhere, and that's the case. So from 379 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: what I'm reading more research has seriously called into question 380 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: many aspects of our previous understanding of the expensive tissue hypothesis. 381 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: There appears to be a period of right now conflicting 382 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: evidence and reinterpretation. Just doing a search for scientific articles 383 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: published within the last four years or so, I found 384 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,959 Speaker 1: a bunch claiming to find evidence for the expensive tissue 385 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: hypothesis within certain species or groups of animals, others claiming 386 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: not to find any evidence within certain species or groups. So, 387 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: as far as I can tell, this one is up 388 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,360 Speaker 1: in the air. Um And with respect to the cooking hypothesis, 389 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 1: one important piece of evidence would be that in order 390 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 1: to sort of track within cephalization history with the growing 391 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: brains of our hominid ancestors, it would need to be 392 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 1: supported by evidence of very early fire use in hominids. 393 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: Now earlier, what did we say was the earliest known 394 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: fire use. We saw those hearths, you know, four hundred thousand, 395 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,880 Speaker 1: seven hundred thousand years ago or so, we saw maybe 396 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 1: evidence of burning going back earlier, maybe to one point 397 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 1: five million years ago or something like that. But this 398 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: would need to show fire use going way way back 399 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 1: earlier than is generally accepted. But I would also say 400 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,400 Speaker 1: within the realm of possibility, maybe maybe you degree based 401 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: on what we've read, well, I think the Yeah, their 402 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: arguments on both sides that are interesting. One that I 403 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 1: ran across just to base it in, like a very 404 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 1: simple study from two thousand seven in which the researchers 405 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: studied effects of cooking and also grinding the meals of 406 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: a Burmese python. So they found that just cooking the 407 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: meat and these beef, just cooking the beef alone decreased 408 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: the cost of digestion absorption and assimilation by twelve point 409 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: seven percent. Grinding it decreased it by twelve point four percent, 410 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: for a total culinary discount of twenty three point for 411 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: four percent. Okay, so they've externalized some of the digestion 412 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 1: of this cow for a Burmese python, right, and certainly 413 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: you know Burmese pythons to not to cook on their own, 414 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: but but probably right, well yeah, I mean, you know, 415 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: except maybe in the story books. But but yeah, this 416 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: is the interesting thing about this is that on one 417 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: handed sort of backs backs up these ideas of yes, 418 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: there's a there is a deaf and definite evolutionary advantage 419 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: in cooking meat, but it's in looking back, like the 420 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 1: history of of culinary arts and culinary preparation, if you 421 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 1: can't really discount the grinding, the the the the dissimilation 422 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: of food as well like being able to break foods 423 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: down into not only cooking them into forms that are 424 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: more palpable and more consumable, but also just physically altering them. 425 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 1: And and I can't help but think of of the 426 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 1: use of fire and therefore smoke as a as a 427 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: as a food preservation technique as well, being able to 428 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: smoke your food so that you have that nutritional power 429 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 1: up for later, uh, perhaps in a time when when 430 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:21,439 Speaker 1: they're when resources are less available. So I think I 431 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 1: think it becomes a more complex pattern as you see 432 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: culinary practices evolve within early people. Yeah, that's that's not 433 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: kind of take on it anyway. Well, I mean another 434 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: thing to think about though, this is, uh, this is 435 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: probably not super scientific, but just to check your own reflections. 436 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: As long as we're talking about human nature, we asked 437 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 1: this about poking fire. How often do you really just 438 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: want to eat all your food raw? Is that a 439 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 1: desire you have or do you feel a deep instinctual 440 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: desire for cooked food? Well? Not fruit, I'm I'm I'm 441 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 1: rather I have to be talked into say cooking pineapple fruit. 442 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,120 Speaker 1: Fruit is often the exception, right, that's often the exception 443 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: given to this statement that humans tend to prefer cooked foods, 444 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: and humans in fact aren't the only animals that seem 445 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: to prefer cooked foods. In fact, I found one study 446 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: from actually from also in Proceedings of the Royal Society 447 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 1: be called Cognitive Capacities for Cooking and Chimpanzees. And so 448 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: one of the things they talked about in this study 449 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 1: is they said, okay, so we've got chimpanzees, and we 450 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: found out across nine studies that chimpanzees prefer cooked food. 451 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: They like to cook food better than raw food. They 452 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: also found that the Chimpanzees can understand that raw food 453 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,360 Speaker 1: is transformed into cooked food through cooking, and so they 454 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 1: can sort of generalize this understanding and other context They 455 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: can get the point that if I have a piece 456 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: of raw food, cooking can turn it into cooked food. 457 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: They also will wait for cooked food. They will delay 458 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: gratification if the reward is the food being cooked. They 459 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: will give uper all food in order to see it 460 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 1: transformed into cooked food. And they can transport and save 461 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: or all food in anticipation of future cooking. So I 462 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,360 Speaker 1: don't know that that seems to to go along with 463 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: this sort of instinctual thing that I think we all 464 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: feel and that I think has been found in other 465 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: animals too, that you don't just get more out of 466 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: digestion when food is cooked, but you have this natural 467 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: preference for it. Yeah, and certainly that's that matches up 468 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: with human experience. We have this primal relationship with with cooking. 469 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 1: We want to cook our food, I mean, we have 470 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 1: Michael Pollen in particular has a number of means. He's 471 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: written and produced documentaries that touch on this time and 472 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 1: time again. We have this this kind of inborn desire 473 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,679 Speaker 1: to want to manipulate our foods via cooking, transform them 474 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: into these other forms. And when that, when those techniques, 475 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: when those practices leave our lives, we we we feel 476 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: drawn to h to commune with him another way, such 477 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 1: as watching a cooking shows all the time, that sort 478 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: of thing, you know. Speaking of Michael Paul and I 479 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,400 Speaker 1: one of the articles I read about the cooking hypothesis, 480 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 1: and this was from a few years ago, so he 481 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 1: might have changed his mind since then, but at the 482 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: time of the article he said that he was he 483 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,120 Speaker 1: felt pretty convinced by the cooking hypothesis, this hypothesis that 484 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 1: cooking is sort of an evolved biological trait that coincides 485 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: with greater incphilization or investment in brain tissue in humans. Yeah, 486 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: like I said, I think there's a strong case to 487 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: be made there. So earlier I mentioned that paper by 488 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:36,479 Speaker 1: Galllet about the history of acquiring fire by by humans, 489 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: and he's the one who talked about the fire foraging bridge, 490 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: and he mentions one way that that might play into 491 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: the cooking hypothesis that I think is interesting. So I 492 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: just want to read a section from his worker. He says, 493 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 1: quote the analogy with other animals might suggest that in 494 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 1: the first instance, early hominins would go to fires simply 495 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: to take advantage of any additional opportunities of gaining prey, 496 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,360 Speaker 1: regardless of what are the resources were cooked. For example, 497 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: the fire might reveal a clutch of eggs, so much 498 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: better if it has baked them. Uh that would that 499 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: technically be baked if the shell is still on. I 500 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: don't know. That seems kind of gross, but I've never 501 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 1: really done that before. Maybe, yeah, I mean, I don't know. 502 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: It would be kind of like a boiled egg. I guess, right, 503 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: I don't know. I've never seen it on the menu 504 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 1: baked eggs, but I've never seen it in the shell 505 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: on the menu. Yeah, well except in a boiled egg, right, yeah, 506 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 1: but not but not like over an open flame. Interesting, somehow, 507 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: it seems like it would explode. I don't know why 508 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: I think that. Well, that's an experiment for some of 509 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,959 Speaker 1: our listeners to fill us in about, or that's an 510 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: experiment for us to do on Facebook Live right here 511 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: in the office. Open fire. But yeah, so anyway, gallet 512 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: continues quote for insevilization. New cranial finds are altering the 513 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: figures rapidly, but at the moment it would seem that 514 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: the average cranial capacity for early Homo at one point 515 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: eight million years ago, and so that's starring, you know, 516 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: close to the time of the emergence of Homorectus is 517 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: six hundred to six hundred and fifty cubic centimeters, which 518 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: is forty two greater than for most apes and australiopithesnes 519 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: other related animals at the time. And yet this is 520 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: earlier than Richard Rangham's postulated date of one point seven 521 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: million years ago for applying the cooking hypothesis. And then 522 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: he concludes saying, perhaps the fire foraging is one important 523 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: element and the cooking hypothesis comes into play more strongly later, 524 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: but other factors operate alongside both. So this is talking 525 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: about how these the fire foraging and the cooking hypothesis, 526 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: if they're both, you know, correct models of of the 527 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,959 Speaker 1: history of humanity, how they sort of could fit together. 528 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: They're like a jigsaw puzzle that led to the fire. 529 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: I want to say, the fire regime that usually is 530 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: another meaning that the fire regime within the command of 531 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: human power and technology, and then the rest is history. Alright, 532 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: We're gonna take a quick break and when we come back, 533 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: we're going to discuss us what it means to get fire. 534 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: I want to position yourself for career success. Master the 535 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: Fundamentals of Business with hb X Core, a three course 536 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,719 Speaker 1: online program developed by Harvard Business School faculty. Immerse yourself 537 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: in real world case studies as you dive and do 538 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: business analytics, Economics for Managers, and financial accounting. The three 539 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: courses that Harvard Business School faculty determined we're essential to 540 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: becoming fluent in the language of business. 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All right, 550 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: we're back now. We all know what it means to 551 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: get fired, but we don't necessarily often think about what 552 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 1: it means to get fired. Do you ever really think 553 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: about this, Robert like to get it to sort of 554 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: understand what the deal with fire is. If I were 555 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: to take my dog up to a big bond fire, 556 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: I don't think he really understands how fire works. I 557 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, maybe I'm not giving him enough credit, 558 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: but I don't know what you think about that. I 559 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: feel like the ability to sort of get fired just 560 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,719 Speaker 1: basically get a sense of, Okay, here's what you can 561 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: expect a fire to do, here's you know. Here, here's 562 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: what you don't have to worry about. Here's what you 563 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: do have to worry about in the presence of fire. 564 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: That's not something animals usually tend to seem to understand. Yeah, 565 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: I'm not convinced that my cat understands fire. And this 566 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: is often one of the distinctions made between humans and 567 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: other tool using animals is that humans are the only 568 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: organisms on Earth that you know, of course, know how 569 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: to use and control fire. Animals are often surprisingly clever, 570 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: but their reaction to fire can be sort of characterized 571 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: mostly by avoidance behaviors, and if not just by avoidance behaviors. 572 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: There are some animals that might approach fire to try 573 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: to find pray or something. They do seem to be 574 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: purely reactive right that they're they're just acting on instinct. 575 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: Most animals tend to avoid or flee fire or even 576 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: the sound of fire. And it's been shown that elephants 577 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: become distressed and released stress hormones in response to wildfire. 578 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: But some research published in two thousand and ten by 579 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: Jill Pruittz and Thomas Leduke I thought was very interesting 580 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: in this regard because they observed savannah chimpanzees. So these 581 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: are chimpanzees living on the savannah lands pan troglodites various 582 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: in Fongoli Synegal, and they recorded their reactions during these 583 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: two encounters with wildfires in March and April two thousand six. 584 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: So you've got these savannah chimpanzees, they're living out on 585 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: the plane is there in the shrub land, and and 586 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: a wildfire comes along, and the researchers right that during 587 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: these two encounters, the chimpanzees, unlike many other animals, reacted 588 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: pretty much totally calmly in the presence of fire, and 589 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: they would loiter near the edge of the fire and 590 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: groom themselves they'd be, you know, a few meters away 591 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 1: from the fire. They go fishing for termites, they'd eat 592 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: some saba fruit even as smoke from the fire was 593 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: coming up to block the sunlight, or maybe climbing a 594 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: tree they've just been resting in a few minutes before. 595 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: And they said that, you know, the chimps would move 596 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: to stay out of the path of the fire as 597 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,479 Speaker 1: it traveled. Uh. And these brush brush fires came at 598 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: the end of the dry season, so there's plenty of 599 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: dry fuel all around, and the fires can travel actually 600 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: rather quickly, But the chimps just didn't panic. Instead, they 601 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: seemed to be totally confident in predicting the movements of 602 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: the fire and thus avoiding it. Uh. And this doesn't 603 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: mean they have an understanding of the chemistry of fire, 604 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: but to some ex then it requires that they have 605 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 1: this kind of unspoken, rudimentary understanding of how fire works. 606 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: For instance, that it requires fuel to burn right, that 607 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 1: if you get out of the way of maybe a 608 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 1: connecting line between the fire and some other piece of fuel, 609 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,319 Speaker 1: it's not going to come towards you. And also that 610 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: its movement can be predicted by things like the direction 611 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: and speed of the wind and of course the location 612 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: of the available fuel. So, in other words, it seemed 613 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 1: like the chimps were conceptualizing fire. These chimpanzees were basically 614 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,360 Speaker 1: showing that they understand how fire works, like an environmental 615 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: understanding of fire, and they knew how to give it 616 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 1: an appropriate distance. They knew how to get out of 617 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: its way but without panic. Though they certainly fall short 618 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 1: of being able to exploit it in any real way, 619 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: shape or form. Right, But they might not be as 620 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 1: far off as you would imagine, because so the researchers 621 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,439 Speaker 1: set up sort of three steps they hypothesized for master fire, 622 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: and the first is the step that they think that 623 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 1: the chimpanzees have already mastered. Right. The first step is 624 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: the conceptualization of fire, and they characterize this as an 625 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 1: understanding of the behavior under varying conditions that would allow 626 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: one to predict fire's movement, thus permitting activity in close 627 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 1: proximity to the fire. Then, of course, the second step 628 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 1: is the ability to control fire, and this would involve 629 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: containing it, providing or depriving the fire of fuel, and 630 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: the ability to put it out. And then third, finally, 631 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: would be the ability to start a fire on your own, 632 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: so conceptualization, control, and then starting at yourself. Right, So 633 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: if we buy into this three step process, you can 634 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: see that the chimps already seemed to be at step one. 635 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: And what it would require for them to start gaining 636 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: mastery over fire is they wouldn't necessarily already know have 637 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: to know how to start a fire. I mean that's 638 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,879 Speaker 1: sort of advanced, difficult knowledge. But imagine if they could 639 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,359 Speaker 1: just start to figure out that, Hey, if I get 640 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 1: some of this fire on a stick and wave it around, 641 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 1: I can really scare off predators. Yeah, I mean, it's 642 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,879 Speaker 1: the basic Mogli scenario right, exactly enough, the tigers your 643 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: Cohn with the with the burning branch. But that to 644 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: me does not actually seem all that implausible as chimp behavior. 645 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 1: I mean, that seems basically within primate tool use capability 646 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: already using tools using sticks, Like what's the difference between 647 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: poking a stick uh into a log to obtain termites 648 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: versus sticking a stick into an active fire to obtain 649 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,400 Speaker 1: just a piece of its power? And they do seem 650 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: to respect its power in another interesting way. So Prue 651 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 1: It's speaking to Iowa State News about her research, was 652 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: describing a thing that she observed, which was a fire 653 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: dance being performed by one of the males of these chimpanzees. 654 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: So she says, quote, chimps everywhere have what's called a 655 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: rain dance. Jane Goodall, a famed primatologists, coined that term, 656 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,360 Speaker 1: and it's just big male display to show dominance. Males 657 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 1: display all the time for a number of different reasons, 658 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,839 Speaker 1: but when there's a big thunderstorm approaching, they do this 659 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: really exaggerated display. It's almost like slow motion. And when 660 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,400 Speaker 1: I was with this one party of chimps, the dominant 661 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: male did the same sort of thing, but it was 662 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: towards the fire, so I call it a fire dance. 663 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,839 Speaker 1: She also reports that she heard what seemed to her 664 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: to be a unique vocalization that was made at the 665 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:33,279 Speaker 1: approaching fire that maybe in some way linked to, you know, 666 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 1: like maybe a fire signal. And it's interesting too that 667 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 1: there's this connection to with thunder that a thunderstorm and 668 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: and a fire and the like. Is if there there's 669 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 1: some connection there that is perceived ever so out, ever 670 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: so foggily. The primates mind these powerful energetic forces of 671 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,400 Speaker 1: nature that you can sort of understand and be calm around, 672 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: but you you also have to respect their power. Uh. 673 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,320 Speaker 1: And so there's also you can look this up online 674 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: if you want. There's some videos of the chimps around 675 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 1: the edge of the fire, and it's the fire is 676 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: burning through the brush and you can see them just 677 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 1: sort of lazing around, grooming, hanging out while this brush 678 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: fire smolders a few meters away. It's pretty strange to see. 679 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 1: But this also makes me wonder what underlies the ability 680 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 1: of an organism to control fire, you know, so, like, 681 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 1: what are the first steps? And it makes me think 682 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: that the first prerequisite to an organism that's about to 683 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:35,359 Speaker 1: gain fire control or fire technology is probably just overcoming 684 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 1: much older instinctual fire fire behaviors, which are avoidance behaviors 685 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 1: and escape behaviors. Generally animals want to get away from fire. 686 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 1: To control fire, you have to approach it and you 687 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 1: have to remain near it. And I don't know, so 688 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,640 Speaker 1: that seems it's like there's this sort of suicidal first 689 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: step on the road to the greatest unleashing of technological 690 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: capability that could happen for an animal on earth. Yeah, 691 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 1: and then you have to steal a portion of it, 692 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 1: and then you have to contain it. You almost kind 693 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 1: of have to kind of a domestication of the flame, yea, 694 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 1: so conceptualization, the ability to control it may be sequestered 695 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,360 Speaker 1: in a hearth. But then of course that third step 696 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,279 Speaker 1: is the ability to start a fire. And then and 697 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: it's it's interesting to just look at how pervasive that is, 698 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: even though a lot of us would be kind of 699 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 1: thrown for a loop if we had to produce it 700 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,880 Speaker 1: without tools or instruments. But basically every human society can 701 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: produce fire basically. They're interestingly enough, there are some and 702 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 1: I have to say they're some of these claims are dubious. Uh, 703 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 1: there's some some controversy about these. But there have been 704 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: claims that you have Aboriginal people of Tasmania as well 705 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 1: as the Sentinalise people of the Adaman Islands. This is 706 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: a south eastern part of the Bay of bengal Um. 707 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: There have been claims that these are the only native 708 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 1: peoples who have survived into the nineteenth century without possessing 709 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 1: the knowledge of fire creation and instead had to you know, 710 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,799 Speaker 1: quote unquote keep the fire burning, preserving lightning born embers, 711 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,360 Speaker 1: perhaps in hollowed out trees like so they had to 712 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 1: keep it in the cage and not let it go out. 713 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 1: According to these According to these allegations are that they 714 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 1: have to we have to catch it. That's not the 715 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: Promethean idea, like Prometheus gave it, gave us this fire, 716 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 1: he didn't tell us how to make it, so store 717 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 1: it somewhere nights, like in a hollowed out lock. This 718 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: strikes me as one of those things that could easily 719 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:33,120 Speaker 1: be one of those sort of wrong racist colonial discussions. Yeah, 720 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,960 Speaker 1: because you know, to what extent there's also sort of 721 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: a modern longing for like that primal existence, I think. 722 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: But also they have the possibility for for racist attitudes 723 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 1: of these You know, these savages clearly don't have the 724 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 1: mastery of fire. They can only find it and then 725 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 1: carry it around. Um, it would seem based on the 726 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 1: research I was looking at, you could make a stronger 727 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:59,239 Speaker 1: case for the Sentinalese people. Uh, but it seems to 728 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 1: remain an open question. It's it's worth noting that maintaining fire, 729 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,879 Speaker 1: carrying embers from one place to another, for instance, might 730 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:07,520 Speaker 1: not be such a weird thing to do in an 731 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,719 Speaker 1: extremely wet tropical environment that limits your access to dry, 732 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:16,279 Speaker 1: combustible materials, right, So like if you've always got fuel available, Yeah, um, 733 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,399 Speaker 1: well you might. Even if you knew how to start 734 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,719 Speaker 1: a fire, it might always be easier to just keep 735 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 1: one burning. So what's the point? Yeah, I mean, if 736 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:25,759 Speaker 1: anyone is ever even if you've just stayed in a 737 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,760 Speaker 1: cabin and maintained a fire in the hearth to keep warm, 738 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 1: you know, you know, it can be kind of a 739 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: pain in the butt to see, even if you've got matches, 740 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 1: Even if you've got matches and lighter fluid and all 741 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 1: the rigamarole, sometimes it's easier just to keep some portion 742 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 1: of a fire hot, keep the coals warm, uh, inactive 743 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 1: long enough to reignite it later. That doesn't mean you 744 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:47,960 Speaker 1: don't know how to make fire, but sometimes it's the 745 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,200 Speaker 1: most expedient course. Well, now that I think about it, 746 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:51,759 Speaker 1: I know that's what I do. I mean, if I 747 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:53,960 Speaker 1: were out in the wilderness, I always try to keep 748 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,960 Speaker 1: something on fire instead of instead of wanting to have 749 00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,279 Speaker 1: to restart it every time. Yeah, I mean, I think 750 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,400 Speaker 1: back on the voice out methods of you know, the 751 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 1: flint and or using a little little bow method that 752 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 1: I never could get to work, or using a crystal 753 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 1: I gotta say, I think that bow method you're talking about, 754 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,319 Speaker 1: the one where you get the get the stick in 755 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,720 Speaker 1: the string, yes, and you roll it back and forth 756 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 1: to create fire through friction with the wood on wood. Yeah, 757 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,959 Speaker 1: that's my My position is that that is a scam 758 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,759 Speaker 1: that nobody's ever actually done that. Uh, if you've seen 759 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,800 Speaker 1: video of it, I think it's it's made with Hollywood magic. 760 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,080 Speaker 1: I think I don't believe in it. Yeah, it's certainly 761 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 1: it would seem like it would be easier to keep 762 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,320 Speaker 1: that the ambers going as opposed to doing that. But anyway, 763 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,200 Speaker 1: that's that's our that's our take on it. Anyway, maybe 764 00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,280 Speaker 1: I'm just speaking out of bitterness from my childhood something 765 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 1: I tried and failed at many times. So as long 766 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,080 Speaker 1: as we're talking about fire in the human brain, I 767 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,360 Speaker 1: also did want to throw in one thing that I 768 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,920 Speaker 1: thought was kind of interesting. It's just a metaphor. But 769 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 1: so people are always trying to come up with physical 770 00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: metaphors to explain the nature of conscious us. You know, 771 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,440 Speaker 1: what is consciousness? It's like it's one of the big 772 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:05,880 Speaker 1: mysteries left out there. There are a lot of big mysteries, 773 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,319 Speaker 1: I guess in science, but consciousness is one of the 774 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,240 Speaker 1: thorniest of them because it's inherently subjective. You're essentially saying, 775 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:16,760 Speaker 1: what can be the explanation for the existence of subjectivity? 776 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 1: Why aren't we all just automata with no experience? And 777 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:23,959 Speaker 1: so you've got these people who would say, well, we're 778 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 1: we're panpsychists, right, and we believe that all matter is 779 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,920 Speaker 1: in some way conscious, at least in some really rudimentary way, 780 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:35,080 Speaker 1: that consciousness is an inherent property of objects. And then 781 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,239 Speaker 1: on the other hand, you've got like the physicist Max Tegmark, 782 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,720 Speaker 1: who has proposed that consciousness is a state of matter 783 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,239 Speaker 1: like solid or liquid or gas. You know, at some 784 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:49,320 Speaker 1: point matter arranges itself into some kind of information processing state, 785 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,839 Speaker 1: and this is like a new state of matter. Uh. 786 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,800 Speaker 1: And then some have also proposed that consciousness, though it's 787 00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 1: it's not that it's nonphysical, it's based on physical reality, 788 00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:03,880 Speaker 1: is not a physical object or a physical quantity, but 789 00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 1: it's rather a process. It's more like consciousness is not 790 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:10,920 Speaker 1: the ball or the bat or the player, but the 791 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:15,480 Speaker 1: game of baseball being played. And uh. And another way 792 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:17,560 Speaker 1: to think about it in that sense would be that 793 00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,560 Speaker 1: consciousness could be kind of like fire. Yeah, since that 794 00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 1: you know, fire isn't so much the substance, but it 795 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:30,319 Speaker 1: is the interaction of things happening to chemical reaction. What 796 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:34,520 Speaker 1: is consciousness but a slow motion explosion somedays more than others. 797 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,920 Speaker 1: But yeah, I think that's a that's a valid point. Yeah, 798 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,440 Speaker 1: in the same sense that the gases and the oxygen 799 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:43,279 Speaker 1: and the fuel are not themselves fire, but they are 800 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,080 Speaker 1: reacting to create fire, to to create this thing that 801 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,360 Speaker 1: we call fire. Maybe all the you know, the cells 802 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:54,279 Speaker 1: in your brain are not consciousness, but that they generate this, uh, 803 00:44:54,360 --> 00:45:00,000 Speaker 1: this combined property, this event we think of as consciousness, 804 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,600 Speaker 1: and that we experience his consciousness. Just a weird thing 805 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 1: to think about. Well, on that note, Joe, I'd like 806 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,920 Speaker 1: to end this episode in the this this pair of 807 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,759 Speaker 1: episodes with a quote from one of one of my 808 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 1: favorite books, and I know you appreciate this one as well, 809 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:19,560 Speaker 1: Coran McCarthy's The Road. It's also one of my favorite books. There. 810 00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:23,080 Speaker 1: There's a common motif in the book, uh that when 811 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,880 Speaker 1: I first read it, I admit I didn't fully understand 812 00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: what was going on when they were talking, when the 813 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,760 Speaker 1: characters were talking about this, but they the main characters 814 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,440 Speaker 1: are a father, and a son. It takes place in 815 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,399 Speaker 1: a cold and dying world after the collapse of civilization 816 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:39,319 Speaker 1: and technology. But the father and the son often speak 817 00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,680 Speaker 1: about carrying the fire. Indeed, so here's the quote, and 818 00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:46,719 Speaker 1: I'll leave this for everyone to contemplate. You have to 819 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,640 Speaker 1: carry the fire. I don't know how to. Yes, you do. 820 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:56,759 Speaker 1: Is the fire real? The fire? Yes it is? Where 821 00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:00,520 Speaker 1: is it? I don't know where it is. Yes, you do. 822 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:06,000 Speaker 1: It's inside you. It always was there. I can see 823 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:12,920 Speaker 1: it all right, everybody. If you would like to get 824 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:14,759 Speaker 1: in touch with us, you can find us stuff to 825 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:18,520 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com. You'll find the podcast episodes there, 826 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,080 Speaker 1: you'll find the blog posts, you'll find videos, and you'll 827 00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:25,720 Speaker 1: find links out to various social media accounts such as Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, 828 00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,600 Speaker 1: Tumbler and the like. And if you'd like to spread 829 00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:30,760 Speaker 1: the fire to us, you can reach us by email 830 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,160 Speaker 1: at blow the Mind at how stuff works dot com